BFD again

[hmmmm]

I decided to go back and read some of the posts on BFD again and had a few questions. I've noticed that when we are watching some movies, the bass is so loud that we can't hear the dialogue unless I put it in "Night Mode." This doesn't happen when playing music- even bass heavy music. Kex, I know we have a very similar setup and you had answered a few questions regarding this in the past. I didn't buy the BFD at the time because the wife was getting sick of me buying equipment all of the time.
Anyway, I got out the SPL meter and did a quick check on the tones from 80hz down and it was all over the place with hardly anything in the 30hz range.
It looks like the BFD Pro is the current model and sells for $99.00 at a lot of sites. It mentions a "set and forget it" mode. <---I'm sure it's not that easy.
Am I correct that's not the model you have? Has anyone used this model?
I'm thinking this may solve my problem.
We did watch Master and Commander the other night and my friend said it felt like his hair was moving when the cannons went off. That's funny because it felt like that on my legs!

[kexodusc]

Hey hmmmm,

The first thing I should say is that Dolby Digital and DTS have different levels of bass gain than a lot CD's, so it's not unusual for the bass to be louder. You might just have to make adjustments to taste in the meantime by cutting the level to the sub.

The suckout at the 30 Hz range is likely related to your room's acoustics...you're getting cancellations in that range.
They did "upgrade" the new BFD pro model...I wouldn't worry too much about whether it's the latest incarnation or not, $99 is a good deal.

Unfortunately, the "set it and forget it" mode won't equalize your bass. You'll have to go through the fun process of dialing in each individual band that you want to cut (or boost in rare occasions). 3 or 4 filters is more than enough.

It's a bit tricky to figure out at first, but keep the manual with you, and print off the instructions from this excellent site, and you'll be fine:
http://bfdguide.ws/

I'm not kidding when I say you might spend a few hours over the first few days tweaking which cuts you apply, how wide a range of frequencies (or narrow) you attack per filter (sometimes it's just as single frequency) and then remeasure with your SPL meter. Some people get it done in a day, took me a bit of trial and error.

On the above site, download the excel workbook, fill in your values for dB's at the listed frequencies, and take a look at what your peaks and dips are...then try to cut the peaks. Lots of people here can help you out.

If you aren't using a Radio Shack SPL meter, be sure that the excel sheets compensation formulas don't give you the incorrect values for dB's (you'll see what I mean after reading the webpage above).

You wouldn't want a speaker that had a +10/-8 dB frequency response. Why settle for that in a sub?
I think you'll be happier.

[Woochifer]

Sounds like you got a lot of room-induced issues that require attention. In order to properly check the linearity of your sub's bass response, you need to look at the overall pattern of dips and peaks, not just assume that the level at 30 Hz is correct and everything else needs to match that. If the room creates a cancellation at 30 Hz, then the level at that frequency can be 20+ db lower than the levels at other frequencies.

The best use of the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, or any other parametric EQ, is to attenuate (lower) the biggest peaks in your sub's frequency curve. By cutting off the most problematic frequency peaks, those huge peaks no longer determine the appropriate level for your subwoofer.

Keep in mind that the BFD was originally developed for feedback suppression on live concert rigs. The parametric equalization feature is secondary, so that "set and forget" mode applies more to the BFD's primary function of feedback attenuation. People on this and other boards recommend the BFD because it's the most inexpensive parametric EQ you can buy, even though that's only a secondary function on the unit, and as such, has a frustratingly steep learning curve. But, once you figure out how to properly make the adjustments with the BFD, then it is easily one of the best investments you can make on your system.

[hmmmm]

[QUOTE=Woochifer]Sounds like you got a lot of room-induced issues that require attention. In order to properly check the linearity of your sub's bass response, you need to look at the overall pattern of dips and peaks, not just assume that the level at 30 Hz is correct and everything else needs to match that. If the room creates a cancellation at 30 Hz, then the level at that frequency can be 20+ db lower than the levels at other frequencies.

The best use of the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, or any other parametric EQ, is to attenuate (lower) the biggest peaks in your sub's frequency curve. By cutting off the most problematic frequency peaks, those huge peaks no longer determine the appropriate level for your subwoofer."

Thanks for the input. I did another quick reading and it looks like I have about a 10 db peak at 50 hz and a drop of about 10 db at 30hz when using 65 db as a reference point.
Everything else is within +/- 4 db.
It amazes me that just moving the meter 1 or 2 feet to the left or right makes a big difference in the readings.

[hmmmm]

Well, I bought the BFD for $56.00 on Ebay. Not too bad!
I'm sure once I get it I'll have some questions:) I did read that Behringer was probably going to be putting out a Subwoofer EQ because of the success of the BFD- and they want to keep it affordable.

[cam]

With the audyssey multi-eq setup on most new Denon receivers, wouldn't the BFD be redundant. Check out this link http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-bpBCXJVpnvj/reviews/20051129/audyssey.html?page=1

[kexodusc]

Cam, the BFD is used for it's parametric eq abilities, especially for frequencies below 100 Hz. Most of these room eq features don't do much for frequencies below 100 Hz.
That audyssey eq thing is more like YPAO and other auto setup features, great for most of the spectrum, but not much good for bass frequencies, which are usually the most problematic.

[cam]

With the link I provided, 3 out of the 4 listeners responded right off the bat about how cleaned up the bass had become. The Audyssey multi-eq seems to get some good results in the bass region.

[kexodusc]

Well, without questioning the qualifications of the reviewers I'll just say it's not wrong to hear improvement in the bass. A lot of bass info extends up above 100 Hz...so there'd be some improvement. But below 100 Hz or so (it varies model to model) the eq is very limited.

[hmmmm]

I went to two Radio Shacks in my area and they were both sold out of adapters. Would this work from the Yammie to the BFD?
Thanks!
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XRM105/

[kexodusc]

I think those will work, but Parts Express or Madisound probably has them adaptors for much cheaper, less than $2 when I bought some. They just chucked them in an envelope and mailed them to me....might be easier and cheaper for you.

[hmmmm]

Well, I got the BFD hooked up and the output level set. All of the filters except for "filter 4" have been turned "OF" and I started messing around with cutting the gain on some of the frequencies (filter 4 is set to PA).
Well, nothing happened. No changes in any of the readings. I started from the begining and again, no changes...even if I do a -20 decible change. Hopefully I'm missing something easy. Any suggestions?

[hmmmm]

Well, I got the BFD hooked up and the output level set. All of the filters except for "filter 4" have been turned "OF" and I started messing around with cutting the gain on some of the frequencies (filter 4 is set to PA).
Well, nothing happened. No changes in any of the readings. I started from the begining and again, no changes...even if I do a -20 decible change. Hopefully I'm missing something easy. Any suggestions?

I figured it out after about 3 hours!

[kexodusc]

See...we told you there was a learning curve :D
Isn't it fun!!!
Worth it though. It totally customizes your sub to your room, now that I have one, I can't imagine how I ever got by without it.

[hmmmm]

See...we told you there was a learning curve :D
Isn't it fun!!!
Worth it though. It totally customizes your sub to your room, now that I have one, I can't imagine how I ever got by without it.

I need to turn that learning curve into a house curve!

Is it a must to have the filters in order of lowest to highest in the settings. The reason I'm asking is...if you see after making changes that you should add another filter, can you just add it out of order? (ex. add a filter for 45hz after there are filters for 50, etc...)

[hmmmm]

Well, after about a week of working off and on the settings, I'm getting pretty close to where I want to be. I've used a total of 5 filters. I had 9 originally but then read that it should be kept to around 4 if possible. My main question is...How high can you boost a frequency safely? I have a huge drop at 36hz no matter what I do. I've lowered most of the frequencies around it to minimize the dip.
If I give it a 8 decibel boost it gets me within 5 decibels to everything else. This is really the only boost I need and it's a narrow bandwith. I'd like to boost it more. I have no problems with 31.5 and 40hz. I don't "rock the house" when I listen to movies and music but I don't want to over work the amp.
Any suggestions?

[kexodusc]

Technically we're not suppose to be boosting anything, but I cheat. I like the results I get so phooeey to the experts who tell me otherwise.
But boosting is a tricky business. Your room is causing those frequencies to cancel out, boosting might not do anything at all, but will require using a lot more power. I don't think I'd go much past 9 dB in my setup knowing the volumes I'll listen too. I only apply 1 boost of 4 dB.
Instead people recommend cutting the frequencies as much as possible to make the response more even.
Go ahead and experiment, though, in the end whatever sounds best to you is the right answer.

[hmmmm]

I dropped everything down even more and now am only boosting 6 decibels at 36hz.
I can't figure out how to post the graph though to show the before and after. It's amazing the difference so far.

[kexodusc]

I dropped everything down even more and now am only boosting 6 decibels at 36hz.
I can't figure out how to post the graph though to show the before and after. It's amazing the difference so far.

Glad you're getting good results.
I think I had to copy the graph and paste into Paint or some image file software, then upload the file here using the "upload/manage" photo file (you've done it before, you know how it is...).

That silly, ugly silver piece of gear is one of the best values in my whole system.

[hmmmm]

O.K. that worked posting it in paint. This is what I have so far. I'll stick with this for awhile because I'm sick of messing with it. I guess having concrete floors really does mess with the bass!

"That silly, ugly silver piece of gear is one of the best values in my whole system"
I have mine in another room, so you can't see it.

Speaking of silver...I changed the AR.com's to black. The silver ended up bugging me. I also built a new t.v. stand that's black. The stand that came with the t.v. was all silver. I'll post some new pictures soon.

[kexodusc]

Wholly wicked results, Batman...

Did you lower the bass relative the rest of the signal to get the new curve, or just post the curves from 2 different reference volumes? Just wunnerin' why the new one is so much lower...

Looks some smooth though, I see you have a bit of "house curve" in there...I might actually try that next.

As for the black ar.com's...what'd I tell ya...From now on you have to put a nickel in the jar every time you find yourself saying "gee, I should've listened to Kex" :D

What do you use as a crossover? 80 Hz?

[hmmmm]

Would you believe those are at the same listening levels. I was shocked! I ended up just lowering the peaks down and giving 36 hz a 6 decibel boost. I'll try lowering the boost some time later. I demonstrated the difference to my wife and she was amazed at the difference!!!

My crossover is set at 80 hz.

"As for the black ar.com's...what'd I tell ya...From now on you have to put a nickel in the jar every time you find yourself saying "gee, I should've listened to Kex"

I just got out a large jar.

[kexodusc]

Would you believe those are at the same listening levels. I was shocked! I ended up just lowering the peaks down and giving 36 hz a 6 decibel boost. I'll try lowering the boost some time later. I demonstrated the difference to my wife and she was amazed at the difference!!!

My crossover is set at 80 hz.

"As for the black ar.com's...what'd I tell ya...From now on you have to put a nickel in the jar every time you find yourself saying "gee, I should've listened to Kex"

I just got out a large jar.

Cool, man, you really eq'd the snot out of that room. I don't think mine was that good...I'll have to go back and play some more. Next up for me, some more DIY room treatments. I like the Auralex stuff, but fiberglass/fabric DIY solutions are cheaper and more effective.

Then I'll have to start saving for a projector.

BTW, what's the cool avatar suppose to be?

[hmmmm]

Try www.foamfactory.com they are supposed to be similar to Auralex but a lot cheaper.

I took about 10 hours off and on screwing around with the BFD.

When my cat dies, we'll carpet that room (he likes peeing on carpets). I think that will out with the sound.

[kexodusc]

After Christmas a friend of mine gave me a bunch of left over foam panels for helping him refinish his studio over the holidays. He gave me a bunch of extra Sonex and Auralex panels and some Foam Factory stuff.

I did some research on the Foam Factory (aka Foam by Mail) panels - they aren't exactly the same as Sonex/Auralex in quality, but I think it's fair to say they capture 75-90% of the performance. For the price they're a much better value. I have 28 foam wedges by them to complement the 70 some odd Sonex/Auralex StudioFoam panels I have. The biggest difference in performance comes at the low end of the spectrum, but to be honest, no foam panel does all that well, so it's moot. For the mid-bass and above they're very close in performance, I bet most people couldn't tell a difference.

They got a bad reputation because some competitors (who are very well respected on HT forums, but dismissed as amateurish in pro-studio forums) posted some misleading results about their performance compared to their own product. Too bad about that, if used with bass traps, I'd highly recommend them. Very effective.

Here's a great place to buy better sound absorbing panels (or materials to buy your own). Rigid Fiberglass (like Owens Corning 703) or mineral wool are far superior to any foam...cheap to build them too.
http://www.atsacoustics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51H9276352&rnd=2016498&rrc=N&affl=&cip=142.139.0.69&act=&aff=

I can send you the design I have sor a neat, 4 and 8 ft tall "triangle-wedge" shaped bass trap I'm working on too. Much better than the Auralex LENRD's I have. Not too pricey either...Hardest part about building these is getting the fabric wrapped cleanly around the wood frame. I'm not so good at that :17: