Denon 3805 or Pioneer VSX-1015TX

[gsi00154]

I have an opportunity to get a Denon 3805 or a Pioneer VSX-1015tx. I am currently running Paradigm Monitor 7's in the front, Paradigm CC350 Center, Paradigm ADP170 rears and a set of Infinity Kappa 7's on my "B" channel all through a Yamaha ht5240 rated at 70 watts per channel. The Yamaha does a pretty good job but it was an entry level reciever when purchased in 2001 and I would like to step up the power a notch.

My current listening arrangement is HT and two channel music. I have a friend with a Denon and I am amazed at the soundstage but the bargain hunter in me can't not look at the Pioneer. Are there any big differences between the two that would influence the decision.

Let me know thanks.

[L.J.]

Do you have a sub?

[gsi00154]

Yes, I am running a 12inch sony powered sub.

[kexodusc]

Two pretty good units here. I think the Denon is a small step up all around, but I'm not sure I could justify the price increase. Feature wise they're incredibly close. The 1015tx is built on a Pioneer Elite platform, and by all accounts is a real giant killer for the money. Haven't heard any complaints quality wise about a Pioneer receiver for a few years now.

I'd recommend you listen to the Pioneer, or both if you can. I'd be surprised if you felt the Denon was worth the extra money...Unless you can find a real good bargain bringing the prices within $100 or less, I think it's a no brainer.
I just bought a new receiver myself, and though I really, really wanted to get the Pioneer I felt it just conflicted with my personal tastes, most likely because it was just a bit different than what I was used to. That said, I couldn't find a thing wrong with it, its a great sounding unit with lots of bang-for-the buck. I found it a bit on the "warmer" side as far as sound goes, which I think most people prefer (but not me). Plenty of power and good clean sound. My experience with Denons is that they are pretty darn neutral sounding, perhaps ever so slightly brighter than the Pioneer.

You could look at H/K and Yamaha as well. Slightly different spins on the same overall level of performance. This is about the level where I can start to hear tiny small differences in sound presentation between units. Just enough to notice, and your speakers might emphasize these, so try to demo in home if you can.

[L.J.]

You should compare the two. Spend a little time with each one if possible. They both offer alot of flexibility, so it will come down to personal preference. I have no personal experience with Pioneer, but from the many posts I've read, the Denon may have an advantage quality wise. If you want a big improvement in sound, you may want to look into a new sub.

[gsi00154]

Well I have the Yamaha and can't say anything bad about it. People leave my home amazed at the sound. However, I like the imaging of the Denon a tad bit better, specifically, the seemless transition from the fronts to the surrounds. I have heard the 3805 but not the Pioneer and have heard that it was built off of the Elite platform. I just do not want to buy the Pioneer and have buyers remorse as the price for the Denon is only a few hundred dollars away (close out deal).

[gsi00154]

You should compare the two. Spend a little time with each one if possible. They both offer alot of flexibility, so it will come down to personal preference. I have no personal experience with Pioneer, but from the many posts I've read, the Denon may have an advantage quality wise. If you want a big improvement in sound, you may want to look into a new sub.
Which sub would you recommend?

[L.J.]

Which sub would you recommend?

SVS, HSU and Velodyne are highly recommended here.

[kexodusc]

First, I agree with LJ...You'll probably notice the biggest improvement getting a much better subwoofer, SVS, HSU, are a just a few to consider. Even Paradigm makes good ones that will far outperform your current sub.

2nd, imaging is really more of a function of the speakers, setup, and room acoustics than receivers or amplifiers. There's enough channel separation in even entry-level receivers to provide the speakers with all they need to image well. Perhaps your friend's Denon is just setup a bit better? Or maybe you're comparing an entry-ish level Yamaha to higher quality Denon? Speakers radiate the sound though, the receiver just relays the info from source to speaker, differences in imaging are usually pretty subtle as you change receivers.

Don't underestimate your systems setup though. Room acoustics and speakers both contribute to the overall sound more than every other step of the chain combined IMO. The more I learn about room acoustics, the more I'm sold it might be the most critical step. Maybe we can help you improve your sound quality without having you spend a good chunk of money...have you properly setup all your speakers? (ie: equilateral triangle arrangement for the mains, ITU recommendations for the surrounds, proximity walls, levels matched with an SPL meter, delays correctly input, etc..?) This alone can make quite a big difference.

While I like the receivers you're looking at, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc, all have excellent models in the $250-$350 range as well that would give you more power, better sound, better flexibility, and likely save you enough money to upgrade your sub to a model that's at least on par with your speakers.

You may find your current receiver is more than good enough and want to invest more in the subwoofer or room acoustics...

Lots to consider. But for now, I'd at least verify you've done all you can in the areas that don't cost money (proper calibration).

[gsi00154]

First, I agree with LJ...You'll probably notice the biggest improvement getting a much better subwoofer, SVS, HSU, are a just a few to consider. Even Paradigm makes good ones that will far outperform your current sub.

2nd, imaging is really more of a function of the speakers, setup, and room acoustics than receivers or amplifiers. There's enough channel separation in even entry-level receivers to provide the speakers with all they need to image well. Perhaps your friend's Denon is just setup a bit better? Or maybe you're comparing an entry-ish level Yamaha to higher quality Denon? Speakers radiate the sound though, the receiver just relays the info from source to speaker, differences in imaging are usually pretty subtle as you change receivers.

Don't underestimate your systems setup though. Room acoustics and speakers both contribute to the overall sound more than every other step of the chain combined IMO. The more I learn about room acoustics, the more I'm sold it might be the most critical step. Maybe we can help you improve your sound quality without having you spend a good chunk of money...have you properly setup all your speakers? (ie: equilateral triangle arrangement for the mains, ITU recommendations for the surrounds, proximity walls, levels matched with an SPL meter, delays correctly input, etc..?) This alone can make quite a big difference.

While I like the receivers you're looking at, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc, all have excellent models in the $250-$350 range as well that would give you more power, better sound, better flexibility, and likely save you enough money to upgrade your sub to a model that's at least on par with your speakers.

You may find your current receiver is more than good enough and want to invest more in the subwoofer or room acoustics...

Lots to consider. But for now, I'd at least verify you've done all you can in the areas that don't cost money (proper calibration).
Wow. Thanks for the reply. In all honesty, my current receiver (Yama HT5240 70 watts) does a great job. I bi-wired them to my Kappa 7's and they just sang. My sub sounds pretty good too. I opened it up and modded the enclosure a bit but am sure that the ones you all are refering to are much superior.

My friends setup is in a larger room than mine (two story ceiling family room vs my 20x15 with vaulted ceings) and he is running Klipsch speakers RF-7's I think and the comparable center and rears.

"(ie: equilateral triangle arrangement for the mains, ITU recommendations for the surrounds, proximity walls, levels matched with an SPL meter, delays correctly input, etc..?) "

I have not done everything on your list above besides changing the delays.

I will give what you have said some serious consideration as I move further. I won the superbowl office pool and have a bit of cash burning in my pockets that the wife does not know about ($1k) so I am going to look at all my options before I spend.

[Eric Z]

Wow, $1K in a Superbowl pool- CONGRATS! Just curious, was there any skill involved or just one of the luck of the draw pools.

Btw, I recommend upgrading your sub and getting a nice receiver in the $500 range.

[gsi00154]

Thanks. It was one of those lucky put your name in a square type pools. I barely watched the game and did not know I won until I came into the office this morning.

[L.J.]

GSI,

Here's a few great articles to get you started on setup and placement

1 (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/hometheaterspeakerlayout.php)
2 (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/loudspeakerplacement01.php)

As Kex mentioned, proper setup and calibration can make huge improvements in sound.

[gsi00154]

GSI,

Here's a few great articles to get you started on setup and placement

1 (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/hometheaterspeakerlayout.php)
2 (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/loudspeakerplacement01.php)

As Kex mentioned, proper setup and calibration can make huge improvements in sound.
Thanks I will give them a look. I already have my eyes on a few subs and if i can save cash on the receiver via proper set-up, etc then i am ahead of the game. Much appreciation and my apologies for the newbie stuff.

[kexodusc]

Thanks I will give them a look. I already have my eyes on a few subs and if i can save cash on the receiver via proper set-up, etc then i am ahead of the game. Much appreciation and my apologies for the newbie stuff.

No need to apologize...most of us start off only knowing what salesmen and brochures tell us. There's a time for upgrading receivers, but really, they don't contribute nearly as much to the "sound" of your system as most people think. If yours plays loud enough, has enough inputs, outputs, program modes, and decodes all the formats you want, your ahead of the game. More power is always nice, but if you don't use much power at your listening levels, it can be wasted. There's not much change from year to year in receivers, but every 3 to 4 years you can get quite a few improvements. For most people though, DTS and Dolby Digital decoding, and half decent bass management is all they'd need.

The SPL meter is good for matching the output of your speakers, and for doing some quick calculations of a comfortable power level you should have. You might be surprised at how little power you actually ever use.

[gsi00154]

Thanks. My wife is going to appreciate you all saving "the house" some money. I am defintely headed out today for the SPL meter, door stops, pen laser and home theater setup disc. I will try out a few subwoofers, but can probably get a good deal on a Velodyne.

[kexodusc]

Oh man, don't be saving "the house" any money....once walk down that dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny...

Seriously, if you stay happy with your current reciever, all the better. You might find you want an upgrade. We just like to get the most performance per dollar spent if you do decide to spend money. Some of these suggestions can help you get you the most for your money...how much you want to spend is up to you.

Just take it from someone who has a lot of experience of throwing money at problems and upgrades, instead of developing a plan for the most cost-effective way to improve my system.