best budget integrated amp?

[funnyhat]

Thanks for help on cd player vs amp. Now I am trying to determine the best choice for a integrated amp under 500, or if possible, under 4 or 3. any ideas are great! Thanks.

[JohnMichael]

I own the Cambridge Azur 640A and have been very pleased with the sound and dependability of the unit. I am using it in my main system to replace an old Rotel unit that is now in the bedroom. IMO it sounds better than the Rotel but I do not know if the Rotel is up to original standards. The 640A is very detailed and balanced accross the frequency range. I would recommend the 640A highly. I would also suggest you look at NAD and Rotel for quality int. amps in your price range.

[RGA]

I have had a bit of a change of heart on my view of this over the last year or so. Budget solid state integrateds generally are not better enough over receivers to justify the price of losing a significant amount of features. I like the Rotel RA-02 as a budget unit but it's not soooo much better than a comprably priced receiver from Yamaha or Denon or Marantz to live without all these units bring to the table.

I think if I were looking in this price range I would be exploring a number of tube amp options that while not the best examples of tubes can still bring about a better sense of the music.

Jolida makes a number of tube amps -- the 102b is about $600.00Cad or $500.00US list (it may be less though) the 202a is $750.00Cad but I have seen them significantly cheaper http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd202a.shtml
http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd102b.shtml

If you have speakers say 89db 8 ohms then those two should have more than enough power to drive them well. Another one that is nice is the ASL http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_1/antique-sound-lab-15dt-tube-amp-1-2001.html
You'd have to go used on this one -- the new models are $1k but you may find one for sale on Audiogon or some other ebay like outfit.

[Jamie]

For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of Jolida owners sit in silence when their units go down, and a lot of them have.
Now understand, I have NOT owned a Jolida myself, but know a lot of folks, and a lot more online, that have had dependability issues with Jolida.
But they DO sound really good, the cdp especially, with the tubes and all.

[funnyhat]

Thanks for the info so far. I have been considering the Cambridge and the NAD 320 BEE, but am confused as reading other forums, people mention the Cambridge as being less than the NAD, but I usually see the NAD for 400, and the Cambridge for around 6. Am I misreading or maybe thinking of other models? Also, preferences between the Cambridge and NAD, I have Paradigm studio 20s. Thanks.

[funnyhat]

More specifically, Cambridge 340 or 540 versus NAD 320 BEE? Thanks

[JohnMichael]

More specifically, Cambridge 340 or 540 versus NAD 320 BEE? Thanks

As far as my 640A I purchased it from www.audioadvisor.com for $499. I do not know the prices of the 340 or 540 but they do sell for less than the price of the 640A.

[Resident Loser]

...on a few things, the Marantz PM7200 and the Yamaha AX-497...I think both are MSRPd around $500USD...

jimHJJ(...FYI...)

[ECMJazz]

Thanks for help on cd player vs amp. Now I am trying to determine the best choice for a integrated amp under 500, or if possible, under 4 or 3. any ideas are great! Thanks.


The Jolida 1501 is a hybrid integrated with a tube preamp and 100w/ch MOSFET power amp. With he right tubes this amp will perform better than MUCH more expensive equipment. You do need to upgrade the stock Chinese tubes though. I've been using Sovtek12AX7LPS tubes with awesome results. These are inexspensive tubes as well.

I've had no reliability issues after 3 months of use. I have not heard of any reliability issues with these amps. They have huge/massive toroidal transformers. The unit itself HEAVILY built.

I have had no experience with the pure tube integrated amps from Jolida. A previous poster implied reliability issues with Jolida amps. I think he may have been refering to the pure tube integrateds by Jolida.

[topspeed]

I compared the c320bee vs. the RA01 vs. the 540a and picked the 540a. It really came down to the NAD and Cambridge units as Rotel charges $100(!) for their remote and for my office app., a remote is a neccessity. The speakers are Mission Argonauts (4ohm nom., 95dB/w/m). Here's a summary as to how they compare to each other:

NAD C320bee:
Superior bass response, very musical, neutral tone, looks only a mother could love.

CA Azur 540a:
Better low level response (i.e. more balanced at all volume levels), slightly warmer tone, very musical, far better aesthetics.

If you want more bass, the NAD is the way to go. Given enough juice, C320bee plays deeper and with more authority. I use mine in the office so low level ability took precedence and because they are out in the open for my clients to see, aesthetics played a role as well. The Azur runs cool and hasn't had any problems whatsoever driving a 4 ohm load 10 hours a day for the last 2 years, although I doubt the NAD would have encountered any difficulties either. With the Mission's sensitivity, it isn't like I'm pouring power at 'em. NAD has had some previous QC probs, as has CA. In fact, I had to send mine back to replace the volume pot barely 3 months into ownership. Since then however, it has been bulletproof. BTW, I got mine from a dealer for $250, so realize there is room to negotiate.

Both are very good units. You can't really go wrong with either.

Hope this helps.

[RGA]

Yes I have experienced reliability issues with Jolida - my choice would be ASL but it costs more. My dealer recently dropped the Jolida line in favour of the ASL -- they carried both for 2 years as a trial run and ASL has less problems is built better and sounds better -- but Jolida has more options such as hybrids and they look better.

There other tube amp makers callled Almarro and Cayin that may be worth checking into which may be better. There is a Canadian Tube maker which si supposed to be very good and VERY inexpensive -- easily under $500.00(if you build it yourself) called Mapletree Audio. Their main thing is preamps and headphone amps but one could buy a preamp and power amp combination that would be around the $500.00 range (this would be a separates set-up with monoblock amps.

The NAD 320 is the worst budget integrated amplifier I have ever heard in this hobby in my entire life. My dealer sells it and was on the phone for hours trying to get NAD to put the designer on the phone to explain the issues all of his 320Bee amps were having. The amplifier does not create a proper soundfield or realistic stereo image when it should, has a dead sounding bottom end. Directly A/B'd to the Rotel RA-02 it was shocking that two budget SS amps could be so polarizing to listen to -- equally shiocking that both get great reviews.

The Other NAD integrated such as the 370 sounded much better (though the 370 does have a constant transistory sounding etch to the thing -- but it has a ballsy brute force Bryston like presentation for much less coin than a Bryston so there is appeal there.

[topspeed]

To be fair Rich, you should note that you've heard various 320bee's that have sounded different from one another, so it' entirely possible this one example had something seriously wrong with it. Of course, the fact that there's such variability between samples poses a whole 'nother set of questions ;).

[Kaboom]

i certainly agree with all of Topspeed's points, owning the 540a and having auditioned the NAD 320BEE. I chose the Cambridge because it sounded way more accurate to me, and because at the price, it was a downright steal (199€, or slightly less of what Topspeed got it for).
However do realize that if you intend to have room-shaking bass, or if you have speakers with less than 89Dbs of sensitivity, the cambridge (nor the nad, nor any sub-100 watt amp) won't cut it. It struggles BADLY to drive my 84 Db 6-ohm speakers (this was fixed with a fine Adcom power amp).
So yeah, it is indeed an awesome amp, specially for the money. Rotel might be more detailed, but i didnt find it quite as involving (auditioned this one, too) and its definately overpriced for what you get.
Cheers!

[funnyhat]

Does the fact that I have paradigm studio 20's make a difference? One comment about the Cambridge needing a pretty effecient speaker makes me wonder as I don't think the paradigms are that effecient, but I could be wrong. Thanks again! :cool:

[ECMJazz]

Yes I have experienced reliability issues with Jolida - .

I'm curious! What model Jolida and what kinds of issues? Thanks!

[bacchanal]

The studio 20's are quite efficient. You won't have a problem driving them with any of the amps you're looking at.

[RGA]

I'm curious! What model Jolida and what kinds of issues? Thanks!

the 202a -- this was a second hand unit that I wanted to audition and then buy. This was a B&W Reps unit and I booked time to audition it. It didn;t work and all that came out was static. I booked a second audition but got a phone call saying it failed and had to be repaired. Then 3 weeks later I went down to audition it and it didn't even turn on. The dealer was so mad at it that he refuesed to sell it.

You ask why I was willing to give ti so many chances? The price - they were asking $300.00Cad for it. The reason they had it that cheap to start with was because it had physically caught on fire.

Now this may just be a lemon but Jolida has had some issues mentioned on a lot of forums and that is why I lean a little stronger to Antique Sound Labs which has not been free of problems either. Generally though ASL has been sightedmore for fit and finish issues which are less important. My headphone amp has been perfect for 6 years (still on the stock tubes).

One big reason I prefer AN or SET amps is that you never have to bias the tubes -- incorrect biasing can lead the inexperienced user into some problems. But Audio Note's entry level integrated is the OTO SE at $2,600.00 with phono another $500.00.

The ASL AQ 1003DT would be my first choice in the $1k US range -- the SS Audio Refinement Complete is also quite excellent for the money as is the Jolida 302B which has a more classic valvey sound than the ASL.

[funnyhat]

Is a sale on the cambridge 540 for 275 a good deal? Not sure what they go for right now. It seems the overall opinion is that this and the NAD 320 BEE are comparable? I would be interested to know if one of the other has major flaws, or at this price range is it just nit picking. Thanks for all help.

[JohnMichael]

Is a sale on the cambridge 540 for 275 a good deal? Not sure what they go for right now. It seems the overall opinion is that this and the NAD 320 BEE are comparable? I would be interested to know if one of the other has major flaws, or at this price range is it just nit picking. Thanks for all help.

www.audioadvisor.com has the 540 on sale for $269.22 and depending where you live they will ship it for free.

[nightflier]

Is a sale on the cambridge 540 for 275 a good deal? Not sure what they go for right now. It seems the overall opinion is that this and the NAD 320 BEE are comparable? I would be interested to know if one of the other has major flaws, or at this price range is it just nit picking. Thanks for all help.

My vote goes to the NAD. I've auditioned both in my home and I have to say that the NAD has deeper bass and more authority. Also doesn't have a problem driving 4 ohm speakers. The two things that bothered me most about the NAD are cosmetic:

- ridiculoously laid out remote: can never tell which way is up & it has more buttons than are needed (to control other NAD components).
- It looks like somebody smeared poop all over it instead of using paint. It won't match black or silver components, but if you have all NAD gear, I suppose it matches.

On the other hand, I was willing to overlook these issues because of the sound and several features that were important to me: 12v trigger (to power external devices), spartan front layout (great WAF), better sounding headphone amp, plenty of inputs (including video & Tape2), smoother volume control, and preamp outputs (it can do double duty as a very decent preamp).

Other components you should definitely consider: HK3480 (also ugly but so good that I bought one) and the Outlaw RR2150 (which I intend to audition as soon as it comes out). Both of these are receivers, but they have a ton of useful features.

[topspeed]

- It looks like somebody smeared poop all over it instead of using paint.

LOL!!! Now there's a visual for ya! :D:D:D

Oh man, you just made my day...

[funnyhat]

Thanks for all the tips, one more question, once I am set up with the integrated amp and cd player, what are my best options for cables (types and/or brands)? I don't know much about this, any ideas are great!

[emorphien]

hey, my NADs resemble the fact that they look like poo was smeared on them

[slate1]

I'd highly recommend the Cambridge Audio 640A if you can swing it. They just released the Version 2 of the 640A so you can probably find a V1 for less than $400 from SpearitSound.com or avhifi.com

As for the Cambridge units not being able to push inefficient speakers - I've got the 640A running 86db NHT SB-3's without a hitch.

Cables - go with AudioQuest and the best ones you can afford. The Sidewinders are nice and won't run you much more than around $40/meter pair.

[topspeed]

Thanks for all the tips, one more question, once I am set up with the integrated amp and cd player, what are my best options for cables (types and/or brands)? I don't know much about this, any ideas are great!
Anything better than the supplied cables will be fine. You're likely to have an extremely short run for the IC's so I'd think a .5m pair will be fine. As for brands, start with the cheapest brand you can find, such as AR from RatShack and then compare them to a pair of boutique brands IC's (AQ, Monster, Valhalla, HarmonicTech, etc.) and see if you can hear the difference. Go with what you think sounds best.

[funnyhat]

Thanks to all for the help so far. After thinking, it seems it will be more feasible for me to replace my source first and the amp after. I think I want to look at the cambridge 540 and 640 models, if I eventually go with either the NAD 320 or cambridge 540 amp, will I hear a difference between those 2 cd players? Just trying to determine if it is worth it to spend the extra $ for the 640. Thanks.

[Rob B in CT]

I think I want to look at the cambridge 540 and 640 models, if I eventually go with either the NAD 320 or cambridge 540 amp, will I hear a difference between those 2 cd players?

I was in the market for a CD player about 18 months ago and auditioned the Cambridge 540 and 640 along with the Rotel 1072. All were powered by the Cambridge 640A. Almost immediately, I eliminated the 540C from the A/B tests as it didn't compete in terms of definition and presentation. It's possible that the B&W speakers colored my impression as I didn't like their overall sound (lots of detail but no body or bass). After 45 minutes of comparing the 640 and 1072, I settled on the Rotel. Though I'm happy with my choice, I've always thought the decision might have been driven by which player best compensated for the speakers' shortcomings. Nonetheless, the 540C and 640C definitely sounded different from one another, so I would audition both.

[emorphien]

Thanks to all for the help so far. After thinking, it seems it will be more feasible for me to replace my source first and the amp after. I think I want to look at the cambridge 540 and 640 models, if I eventually go with either the NAD 320 or cambridge 540 amp, will I hear a difference between those 2 cd players? Just trying to determine if it is worth it to spend the extra $ for the 640. Thanks.
There are enough differences over the Cambridge 540 to make the 640 a better choice. A lot of people will tell you there's more going on inside than just more watts, and that a considerable overhaul was performed making it the much better unit in more ways than power. Audition them to see for yourself.

As for a CD player, I listened to the Cambridge 540 and 640C but ultimately liked the NAD C542 the best.

[Ellison]

Buy a Nad352 instead of 320 or 540... 352 sounds pleasurable and relax. And its also dynamic. Just dont expect much transparency and imaging. But its musical tho

[zincalloy77]

low budget amps are mainly the realm of NAD,rotel and cambridge, just go for the sound you prefer,trust your ears

[RGA]

Actually you know you could very well be better of buying used. I bought a used Sugden A48b for $400.00Cad. With something like the Sugden you are getting a significant step up from IMO any amplifier that I have ever heard from any of these companies.

You may not get the features like a remote control but there is a certain amount of added pleasure knwoing you are getting something that is a considerable step-up than the entry level units and this is on top of better sound.

I'd be looking at used amps from Sugden A28, A48B and if you really luck out the A21a, Audio Refinement "Complete" or YBA Integre DT,Arcam Delta 290 integrated. You could look for amps from Roksan, Creek Audio etc.

Amplifiers are about as safe a second hand buy as you can get.

[zincalloy77]

I totally agree, if you are prepared to buy second hand, (with a good audition) then some far nice equipment is on offer

[abulgan]

any advice for Tube Amp can be used with Kef İQ3 (89db) or B&W 602 S3 (90db) in a small room

[nyrgrs60]

Hello Forum....Long time audio Review user, but I have not posted on the Forum site in ages...Here goes... Average audiophile...no Vinyl....mostly Cd's. I have noticed that I have been using my MP3 player a lot more then any other music source at home for a while now. I am looking to purchase an Intergrated Amp, with a sole purpose of using it for my MP3 player. What is the best product for that use.....Not too expensive......And do they make Int. Amps for primary MP3 use?.....Not a fan of any Docking stations....They just sound like portable radios to me......Yes....Bose also.......I dont think it matters, but I have a Zune 120 Gig MP3 player.......Floorstanding, and bookshelf speakers...Probably use my JM Reynauld Twins with this amp....Yes I can hook the MP3 player up to my cd input on my preamp, but I would like a seperate system for this purpose....Any input would be appreciated.....Thank you again....

[markw]

Hello Forum....Long time audio Review user, but I have not posted on the Forum site in ages...Here goes... Average audiophile...no Vinyl....mostly Cd's. I have noticed that I have been using my MP3 player a lot more then any other music source at home for a while now. I am looking to purchase an Intergrated Amp, with a sole purpose of using it for my MP3 player. What is the best product for that use.....Not too expensive......And do they make Int. Amps for primary MP3 use?.....Not a fan of any Docking stations....They just sound like portable radios to me......Yes....Bose also.......I dont think it matters, but I have a Zune 120 Gig MP3 player.......Floorstanding, and bookshelf speakers...Probably use my JM Reynauld Twins with this amp....Yes I can hook the MP3 player up to my cd input on my preamp, but I would like a seperate system for this purpose....Any input would be appreciated.....Thank you again....Any integrated will do the trick but since MS dropped support for Zune hardware, you might want to look on Amazon and get hold of an A/V docking station while they are still available. With that you can use any amp with aux inputs. Pretty soon they won't be making them any more, if they are still making them at all,

[MM622]

You may consider some China made trube amp

[Poultrygeist]

For the money you won't be able beat this EL34 Yaqin tube amp. It's easy to bias and you can low ball their buy-it-now price. I've owned two tube hybrids and sold them both. Why not start out with a tube amp as we all eventually end up there, no matter how many solid states we go through on the way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MC-10L-Integrated-EL34-Vavuum-Tube-Amplifier-amp-/170676227246?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bd188cae

[markw]

Why not start out with a tube amp as we all eventually end up there, no matter how many solid states we go through on the wayNo, we don't. That's a lie.

Besides, this thread is five years old.

[JohnMichael]

No tubes for me. I love my Krell and dynamic driver speakers. I once listened to some PMC speakers with a McIntosh tube amp. I kept thinking the bass would be better with some good solid state power.

[frenchmon]

No tubes for me. I love my Krell and dynamic driver speakers. I once listened to some PMC speakers with a McIntosh tube amp. I kept thinking the bass would be better with some good solid state power.

I've got that SS power in my hybrid....Well I've been going back and forth with the Vincent and Rotel SS. I can see why there are two camps. SS is a cleaner sound, while the distortion of the tubes is romantic. I was at a live concert Sunday and the guitar amps had tubes in them. I noticed that same distortion...

[markw]

SS is a cleaner sound, while the distortion of the tubes is romantic. I was at a live concert Sunday and the guitar amps had tubes in them. I noticed that same distortion...Funny, I've spent my life trying to get rid of as much distortion as possible in my playback system. Now, to intentionally add it in across the board just sticks in my craw.

But, I can see where the distortion added by tubes can be a boon to music production, such as in wailing, screaming, guitars, fuzzy bass, and other intentionally added sound effects but that just seems to lead to this rusty old caveat:

"Tubes are great for some electronic music production but solid state is better for all music REproduction."

[Poultrygeist]

Negative feedback is used to lower distortion and in the case of solid state is often the only thing keeping the transitors from exploding. Triode amps OTOH do not employ negative feedback. Negative feedback is not a problem if you don't mind a 2 dimentional sound stage and time smearing.

[JohnMichael]

Negative feedback is used to lower distortion and in the case of solid state is often the only thing keeping the transitors from exploding. Triode amps OTOH do not employ negative feedback. Negative feedback is not a problem if you don't mind a 2 dimentional sound stage and time smearing.



Depends on how it is used. Some SS amps have low negative feedbak. During the spec wars they used large amounts of global feedback until someone discovered and measured TIM and then most designers reduced there amounts of feeedback and how it was applied.

Interesting that we are replying to a 5 year old thread. I hope the OP has found something by now.

[markw]

Triode amps OTOH do not employ negative feedback. Well, that explains those high levels of the beloved even-order harmonics tube fans are so fond of. But, fear not. Negative feedback is, in fact, utilized in other classes of tube amps in order to minimize this.

As for "smearing" in SS amps, you should try using something of quality for a standard instead of those $40.00 T-amps you so love.

"To keep them from blowing up"??? Oh, come now. When you stoop to these levels of gross exaggeration, or just plain BS, you cast doubt on anything you say among those with any knowledge at all about this hobby.

[JohnMichael]

Well, that explains those high levels of the beloved even-order harmonics tube fans are so fond of. But, fear not. Negative feedback is, in fact, utilized in other classes of tube amps in order to minimize this.

As for "smearing" in SS amps, you should try using something of quality for a standard instead of those $40.00 T-amps you so love.




Yes he could try a Krell S-300i or a Nelson Pass integrated.

[frenchmon]

Well, that explains those high levels of the beloved even-order harmonics tube fans are so fond of. But, fear not. Negative feedback is, in fact, utilized in other classes of tube amps in order to minimize this.

As for "smearing" in SS amps, you should try using something of quality for a standard instead of those $40.00 T-amps you so love.

"To keep them from blowing up"??? Oh, come now. When you stoop to these levels of gross exaggeration, or just plain BS, you cast doubt on anything you say among those with any knowledge at all about this hobby.

Yes...or even a Rotel RB 1080 which is 2 or 3 years removed from production...great power amp..with no smearing...and combined with a good preamp and speakers... its good a low level listening.

[Poultrygeist]

I have heard the F1 driving back loaded horns and it is an exceptional amp. Most impressive was the amount of bass this 10 watt high current amp produced from a 4.5 inch Fostex driver.

[RGA]

Negative feedback = BAD
No Negative Feedback (from tube designs) = Good
Quasi designs using no feedback but not from tubes = some degree of mediocre - Sugden A21a SS Single Ended No feedback is good if you really don't want a tube amp and good for the money. However - better tube amps for the same money are available - like the Kit One.

Articles

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Archive_6.pdf

Audio Note (http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_negative_feedback.shtml)

[frenchmon]

:3:Hey RGA...send me those PM 150 monobocks to mate with the SA-T1...

[markw]

While we're generalizing, tube amps have more distortion then solid state amps and, as we all know, distortion is bad, except perhaps for Jimi Hendrix and the like.

Enjoy your Kool-aid, boys, Some people can sell it succesfully, like Jim Jones, but society hasn't bought it, and never will.

[frenchmon]

While we're generalizing, tube amps have more distortion then solid state amps and, as we all know, distortion is bad, except perhaps for Jimi Hendrix and the like.

Enjoy your Kool-aid, boys, Some people can sell it succesfully, like Jim Jones, but society hasn't bought it, and never will.

Well if the distortion is bad coming through my tube pre, some body sho in hell for got to tell my tube pre because its been going strong now for about 5 hours and she sounding really really good...no, excellent!

[markw]

Well if the distortion is bad coming through my tube pre, some body sho in hell for got to tell my tube pre because its been going strong now for about 5 hours and she sounding really really good...no, excellent!Funny, betcha us solid state guys can say the same thing. I know I sure can.

Let's face it, you "tubies" just love throwing out those stoopid generalizations and hyperbole. Just look at the recent contributions from you guys in this thread alone.

So, if y'all want to maintain any credibility, just quietly keep enjoying your tubes, but please keep your unbridled, almost obsessive, love for the pleasure you derive from playing with them to yourselves. It just looks really weird when you go public with it and kinda creeps us out.

[frenchmon]

Funny, betcha us solid state guys can say the same thing. I know I sure can.

Let's face it, you "tubies" just love throwing out those stoopid generalizations and hyperbole. Just look at the recent contributions from you guys in this thread alone.

So, if y'all want to maintain any credibility, just quietly keep enjoying your tubes, but please keep your unbridled, almost obsessive, love for the pleasure you derive from playing with them to yourselves. It just looks really weird when you go public with it and kinda creeps us out.

What!!!! Some body spit in your corn flakes or something?. I got solid state as well. I aint feeling the love man. I aint saying one is better than the other....just different.

[markw]

What!!!! Some body spit in your corn flakes or something?. I got solid state as well. I aint feeling the love man. I aint saying one is better than the other....just different.Really? Ya sure coulda fooled me.

You're pretty good with those snide little comments, aren't ya? So am I.

The difference is you try to deny you meant what you clearly implied when you're called on it. I don't.

Enjoy your cornflakes.

I do, however, give you credit for that Rotel post.

[frenchmon]

Really? Ya sure coulda fooled me.

You're pretty good with those snide little comments, aren't ya? So am I.

The difference is you try to deny you meant what you clearly implied when you're called on it. I don't.

Enjoy your cornflakes.

I do, however, give you credit for that Rotel post.

What did I say to make you think I thought tube was better man? If you can, kindly point it out to me please. Just for the record...I think both are good. Right now, ima enjoying a hybrid sound....slight warmer with punch. Shoot, who knows tomorrow I might want a cleaner sound, and I too will enjoy that. But kindly point out those quotes that gotcha bent out of shape.

[RGA]

While we're generalizing, tube amps have more distortion then solid state amps and, as we all know, distortion is bad, except perhaps for Jimi Hendrix and the like.

Enjoy your Kool-aid, boys, Some people can sell it succesfully, like Jim Jones, but society hasn't bought it, and never will.

Measure a SET amp at .001 watt - then measure most SS amps at .001 watt - SETs when not driven into clipping have FAR superior measured performance than any SS amp - crossover distortion - SET doesn't crossover. Measure a feedback amp BEFORE the feedback loop engages to artificially make the numbers look better (when in fact they're not). The fact that SS is dirt cheap to make and far more profitable as a result. The Kool-Aid is is believing cheap parts at sometimes high prices = good sound.

See SS amps need a bucket of corrective measures just to remotely work properly.

Consider the folks on forums who blather about power and loads. I need a 3000 watt Krell amp to drive my 1 ohm speaker nonsense. Yeah a combo that generally sounds lousy but what all these people fail to realize is that the ONLY amps that are truly LOAD STABLE are Single Ended amplifiers.

WHAT? Oh yeah didn't you know those pathetic expensive SS amps of a billion watts need fuse protection - if they could actually DRIVE difficult loads they would not need it. Take an Audio Note kit one - put a screwdrive across the outputs and run the amp 24/7 for a year. The amp is driving an infinite load - that is load stable - it can drive ANY load. Now take your SS amp and remove the protection circuitry and stick a screwdriver across the outputs of you Krell or $30,000 Bryston amp - and within 5 minutes you'll need a fire extinguisher. Hell Krell catches on fire even when they have their fuses in place.

It's funny but SET amps have NEVER lost a blind level matched audition - ever. Even the Sugden which is a SS Set has beaten every amp it's ever gone up against despite having more distortion.

Amplifier distortion is a fraction of the distortion of even the best speakers - far less distortion than what a Magnepan or Quad puts out. Distortion is a no starter - the only time a SET distorts is when it is driven beyond it's ability - umm guess what buddy - do that to a SS amp and the distortion is about 100 times worse. At least second harmonic distortion is easy on the ears - when a Krell clips it's frightening - and usually takes out the speaker.

It is impossible to blow a speaker with a 3 watt amp - not so with your 150 watt Krell/Bryston whatever.

Sadly the SS kool-aid is drunk by the numbers is better fools. More damping factor, more feedback, more watts - must be good - selling bigger is better to male shoppers makes sense from a marketing standpoint - most men are easily led by bigger and more is better.

[RGA]

What did I say to make you think I thought tube was better man? If you can, kindly point it out to me please. Just for the record...I think both are good. Right now, ima enjoying a hybrid sound....slight warmer with punch. Shoot, who knows tomorrow I might want a cleaner sound, and I too will enjoy that. But kindly point out those quotes that gotcha bent out of shape.

Nah - Tubes are better all the way - just depends on the tube amp. Plenty of rubbish in both camps. The Shengya PM 150 is a tube hybrid monoblock - so it's got some SS in there but for the money - it is well executed and Class A for most of the duration at least. I like it a lot more than the SS amps I've had over the years including Arcam, Bryston, and my current Rotel power amp.

There are many sorts of distortions - THD is unimportant - and until people figure that out they're not going to get anywhere.

[markw]

What did I say to make you think I thought tube was better man? If you can, kindly point it out to me please. Just for the record...I think both are good. Right now, ima enjoying a hybrid sound....slight warmer with punch. Shoot, who knows tomorrow I might want a cleaner sound, and I too will enjoy that. But kindly point out those quotes that gotcha bent out of shape.WEll, post 40 seems pretty clear inn "romanticizing" the added distortiion tube amps provide when PRODUCING musical sounds in a performance and saying that is equally desirable in home music reproduction. It's not.

And, let's face it, your timing in jumping in to defense of tubes in post 51 is quite obvious, particularly considering that the post I responded just pior to that was a direct, fairly sarcastic, rsponse to some bone-headed post by some other tubie immediately prior. You easily could have sat this one out instead of popping your head up into the crosshairs.

If I misead you then I apologize but you did ask for it after post 51. Be honest.

[markw]

Measure a SET amp at .001 watt - then measure most SS amps at .001 watt - SETs when not driven into clipping have FAR superior measured performance than any SS amp - crossover distortion - SET doesn't crossover. Measure a feedback amp BEFORE the feedback loop engages to artificially make the numbers look better (when in fact they're not). The fact that SS is dirt cheap to make and far more profitable as a result. The Kool-Aid is is believing cheap parts at sometimes high prices = good sound.

See SS amps need a bucket of corrective measures just to remotely work properly.

Consider the folks on forums who blather about power and loads. I need a 3000 watt Krell amp to drive my 1 ohm speaker nonsense. Yeah a combo that generally sounds lousy but what all these people fail to realize is that the ONLY amps that are truly LOAD STABLE are Single Ended amplifiers.

WHAT? Oh yeah didn't you know those pathetic expensive SS amps of a billion watts need fuse protection - if they could actually DRIVE difficult loads they would not need it. Take an Audio Note kit one - put a screwdrive across the outputs and run the amp 24/7 for a year. The amp is driving an infinite load - that is load stable - it can drive ANY load. Now take your SS amp and remove the protection circuitry and stick a screwdriver across the outputs of you Krell or $30,000 Bryston amp - and within 5 minutes you'll need a fire extinguisher. Hell Krell catches on fire even when they have their fuses in place.

It's funny but SET amps have NEVER lost a blind level matched audition - ever. Even the Sugden which is a SS Set has beaten every amp it's ever gone up against despite having more distortion.

Amplifier distortion is a fraction of the distortion of even the best speakers - far less distortion than what a Magnepan or Quad puts out. Distortion is a no starter - the only time a SET distorts is when it is driven beyond it's ability - umm guess what buddy - do that to a SS amp and the distortion is about 100 times worse. At least second harmonic distortion is easy on the ears - when a Krell clips it's frightening - and usually takes out the speaker.

It is impossible to blow a speaker with a 3 watt amp - not so with your 150 watt Krell/Bryston whatever.

Sadly the SS kool-aid is drunk by the numbers is better fools. More damping factor, more feedback, more watts - must be good - selling bigger is better to male shoppers makes sense from a marketing standpoint - most men are easily led by bigger and more is better.Whatever, RGA. You can feel free to beleve whatever warm, fuzzy philosophies you wish, but the world does seem to see otherwise. ..thankfully.

And, since you like to point out here that speakers themselves add more distortion than amps, doesn't that make your distortion rants somewhat moot? In any case, the best way to avoid (amplifier) distortion is to have enough to not drive the poor thing into clipping, doncha think? Most sensible people have realized that the best way to prevent distortion from over-driving is to, well, simply have enough clean power to avoid that situation.

But, at least you do admit that you like the sweet, syrupy sound of even-order harmonics. Rock musicians have known that for ages. That's a preference, not necessarily a positive attribute in music reproduction.

Finally, I do like the way you try to drag sexism into it by saying that having more power is a male trait. Not to sound too Freudian, but are you sure you're not trying to justify a lack of something here? Is this your way of saying "it ain't the meat, it's the motion"? Or is it that you just like looking at that big, bulbous tube that turns you on? No problem, dude, amplifier power you can buy. Self-esteem, well...

[frenchmon]

WEll, post 40 seems pretty clear inn "romanticizing" the added distortiion tube amps provide when PRODUCING musical sounds in a performance and saying that is equally desirable in home music reproduction. It's not.

Man....come on Mark. Perception man. Kindly let it go. But now I will attempt to clear it up.

Have you ever heard of the Romantic era? Happened in Europe...spread to America in about the 18th century and pertained to the arts, literature and MUSIC. Those who where not wealthy and rich needed it....a way of escape for them..... sort a like what the Swing era did for people in America during the great depression.

Had a lot to do with perception and ones emotion from what one perceived. Its was an departure from realism....and by the way, the period of realism followed the era of romanticism. So in other words Mark....What the Vincent has done for me is inject me with emotion and feeling in a way that you cant understand or feel. I have romanticized it....a departure from the reality of distortion and a not so clean sound as in Solid State. I welcome the sound of the distorted music... let it into my soul....and it moves me with passion. I am in the moment. Mind you, does not mean Tubes with all it has to offer is better in the real world....only in the moment while I am enjoying it....so hyperbole??? I have no problem with that. The Romantic era was a departure from facts or realism and an entrance into emotion with fear and sometimes awe, as in what my Vincent has done for me....and I am sure your SS does for you.


And, let's face it, your timing in jumping in to defense of tubes in post 51 is quite obvious, particularly considering that the post I responded just pior to that was a direct, fairly sarcastic, rsponse to some bone-headed post by some other tubie immediately prior. You easily could have sat this one out instead of popping your head up into the crosshairs.

If I misead you then I apologize but you did ask for it after post 51. Be honest.

Post 51....I was just stating that in this case, distortion is a good thing for reasons expressed above. Still I have said nothing to suggest tube is better...but if one thinks it is in the real world, then that's his opinion. Not a big deal.

Ahh....no need for an apology...you and I are still cool. I want no enemy's....only good conversation and spirited debated.

[Poultrygeist]

I live in the largest city in my state and none of the audio stores here sell SET's.

I wonder how many of you SS guys have ever heard one?

[markw]

Preferences are perfectly fine as long as they are acknowkledged as such. I love Van Gogh but wouldn't want capturing visual images of my grandkids growing up. Don't even get me started with Picasso of Dali there.

What dragged me back into this thread was when some turkey said "everybody goes to tubes eventually". Blatent BS like that will elicit a response every time.

[Poultrygeist]

It took this turkey 40 years to get there.

So markw, you've still got time.

[markw]

It took this turkey 40 years to get there.

So markw, you've still got time.Doubt it. I've got a son older than that and I built my first amp, a SEP for that matter, in '62.

So, start working on "everybody" else.

[Feanor]

Doubt it. I've got a son older than that and I built my first amp, a SEP for that matter, in '62.

So, start working on "everybody" else.
SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.

[frenchmon]

Preferences are perfectly fine as long as they are acknowkledged as such. I love Van Gogh but wouldn't want capturing visual images of my grandkids growing up. Don't even get me started with Picasso of Dali there.

What dragged me back into this thread was when some turkey said "everybody goes to tubes eventually". Blatent BS like that will elicit a response every time.


My Man!

[RGA]

Feanor you were schooled by morricab - why not actually learn something - maybe if you could actually hear you'd be worth talking to - granted when you have no high frequency hearing why you think you should be opining on audio quality is a complete laugh since most of the complains are the high frequencies.

It's funny - the first rule of science is observation - which requires first hand experience - of which you have none. Mark is just a troll - I get that. No one can possibly be that deaf.

[RGA]

SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.

No it's not a religion - it is objectively superior sound. Objectively superior is run a blind audition and listen and most of the time - every time I am aware of - the SET is chosen as the best sound - even by top SS manufacturers selling expensive solid state amplifiers. See that is OBJECTIVE. What is not objective is seeing a graph or a THD spec and making an assumption that it is better without any first hand experience. That's a religion - the religion of the spec sheet.

There is also correlational evidence - see that most speaker makers bring tubes and SET amps to an expensive audio show where they want to put their speaker's best attributes forward. Most bring some sort of tube. Hmm. Reviewers - look at the total number of amplifier sales and reviews and see what most of them actually buy. Not all - but there is a big big correlation there.

And anytime a Magnepan owner starts throwing the religion card - look in the bloody mirror - there's a religion that borders on scientology.

[markw]

SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.Not really. This is verifiable, testable science although some do share some traits with scientologists, a religion recently created by a science fiction writer. (Battleground: Earth)

FWIW, I find scientology an insult to both religion and good science fiction writers and it's followers fools.

Religion is pure faith that cannot be measured in any scientific way Electronics was created by man and lays no claim to supernatural forces.

I also find it interesting that if one doesn't buy into it, one is either deaf or a troll. What's that river in Egypt?

I think this thread has been quite refreshing, kind of like flushing the stables with water. I'm sure a lot of lurkers got some enjoyment here. I certainly did.

[JohnMichael]

I find it interesting that some people think they know what should sound good to me. I have listened to a few tube amps including a monster McIntosh amp. I just do not get the sound of tubes. If you enjoy tubes well that is great. Enjoy what you enjoy as will I. My problem arises when you tell me I am wrong. I am right for me.

I enjoyed when Bob Carver designed a solid state amp to sound like a tube amp based on a tube amps measurements and distortion patterns. I enjoyed the time Stereophile tested a Cary tube amp and compared it to a tone control for it's far from flat frequency response.

RGA during his promotion of AN mentioned some Krell's that had problems. Now I would like to hear about all the reliability problems of tube amps and their tubes.

[Feanor]

No it's not a religion - it is objectively superior sound. Objectively superior is run a blind audition and listen and most of the time - every time I am aware of - the SET is chosen as the best sound - even by top SS manufacturers selling expensive solid state amplifiers. See that is OBJECTIVE. What is not objective is seeing a graph or a THD spec and making an assumption that it is better without any first hand experience. That's a religion - the religion of the spec sheet.

There is also correlational evidence - see that most speaker makers bring tubes and SET amps to an expensive audio show where they want to put their speaker's best attributes forward. Most bring some sort of tube. Hmm. Reviewers - look at the total number of amplifier sales and reviews and see what most of them actually buy. Not all - but there is a big big correlation there.

And anytime a Magnepan owner starts throwing the religion card - look in the bloody mirror - there's a religion that borders on scientology.
Thanks, RGA -- for proving my point.

[RGA]

I find it interesting that some people think they know what should sound good to me. I have listened to a few tube amps including a monster McIntosh amp. I just do not get the sound of tubes. If you enjoy tubes well that is great. Enjoy what you enjoy as will I. My problem arises when you tell me I am wrong. I am right for me.

I enjoyed when Bob Carver designed a solid state amp to sound like a tube amp based on a tube amps measurements and distortion patterns. I enjoyed the time Stereophile tested a Cary tube amp and compared it to a tone control for it's far from flat frequency response.

RGA during his promotion of AN mentioned some Krell's that had problems. Now I would like to hear about all the reliability problems of tube amps and their tubes.

Again though - because someone hears ONE tube amp does not mean you can write off all tube amps - I like the Solid State Sugden A21a more than many tube amps - in fact I like the Sugden A21a over ANY and ALL McIntosh amps - including their amps at about 5 times the price.

I have heard several expensive tube amps that I don't particularly like - Copland, McIntosh, Audio Research, BAT, are all tube amp makers that spring to mind that leave me cold. I don't particularly love certain Audio Note tube amps either.

Tubes are light bulbs. They need to be replaced from time to time - you need to be careful with them - if they blow and you're not paying attention they can arc and take out the board they're on. That is the nature of the design - it is inexcusable in a SS amp to not understand what fuse the amplifier needs - sure I get it from a Chinese maker selling $200 amplifiers - but when you make $70,000 amplifiers you are supposed to know how to design an amplifier properly - granted if you charge $70,000 people assume you do. Technical Brain is another such animal - very expensive and they fall apart continuously. But at least when it was working it sounded excellent.

Problem is the people who knock tubes usually have little to no experience with any sort of wide selection of them - they hear two don't like them and that's it.

A little background - I was a DIE HARD SS supporter and thought tubes were absolute CRAP. Why did I feel this way? Because auditioning Bryston with ML and PMC I got lots of clarity and slam - I auditioned said Bryston in store and took it home - almost bought it to - and with horn loudspeakers no less than are 8 ohm rated but typically run 10ohms - dead easy to drive. Why did I dislike tubes - because I directly compared said Bryston against Copland - a soft mushy lush distortion generating tube amplifier - oh sure it sounded "pleasing" and "warm" but it was obvious to anyone that it papers over the cracks. Copland is very popular with certain tube guys - it's a nice warm fix up bright speakers kind of amplifier. As compromises go - I would prefer that to something bright - but I would prefer something extremely transparent that doesn't exhibit copious amounts of obvious grain - which unfortunately - all Bryston amplifiers and the like exhibit.

Guess what - for all the hacks on forums - ask them why there is a replacement for the 3B NRB - see when that amp was out it was "perfectly accurate" because to listen to forum hacks - SS is perfect sound forever like the CD. The 3B NRB has distortion figures so low that no human, dog or bat can detect. The noise floor is as good as any SS amplifier on the market at any price - it too can't be heard. The frequency response is ruler flat and covers the entire range of human hearing. And yet - the 3b ST comes out and suddenly the reviewers, owners and the maker himself says that the noise and grain are improved over the "bright fatiguing and etchy" sounding NRB - but WAIT a minute - no one was saying that about the 3b NRB when it came out and for the years it was selling. (I did but that's because I don't have a dog in the hunt).

Now the 3B ST is the way ahead - that is until 3-4 years later when the SST comes out and is a watershed moment in SS amplifiers (according to them) and the Bright fatiguing grainy nature of the ST is removed. Oh WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT didn't we read this before? And now we hear it again with the SST2 series - fixes the bright etchy grainy problems of the SST. Of course none of this is audible according to the measured results or the spec sheets - of course everyone can hear it but if it's not on the spec sheet and the graph - it's not there. Couldn't be that they're not measuring the right things.

And start looking at others - Musical Fidelity is disgusting for this tactic. Every 2 years instead of 4 they were rubbishing their previous amp as sounding practically "broken" while the new ones were the way ahead and cutting edge.

The fact that McIntosh sells looks and 1/2 inch thick face plates to make it heavy and sounds poor is hardly a basis to judge tube amplifiers. McIntosh sells what they think will sell - which is why they sell tube amps and SS amps - they sell pretty blue lights, lots of power and it sounds blah. You're are NOT alone in not liking the sound of McIntosh - kudos to you for not being duped by the appearance and size. UHF magazine ripped their OTL designs coming out and saying the words "this is a BAD design." They did make one venerable tube amplifier back in the day which I did like hearing it in South Korea. Interestingly it also didn't have the sexy looks of the others - maybe someone there wanted to prove they could actually make something sound good.

And you take a company like Quad - the gold standard of panels over the years - they make amplifiers designed for their speakers - what are they? Tube amps. Then when they wanted an updated amplifier for their new top of the line Quad panels - they decided to get help and go outside their company to design the best amplifiers that would be THE match for their flagship panels Who do they go to despite the thousands of SS amplifier designers - Andy Grove - the guy who designs Audio Note's amplifiers and CD players that's who.

I would listen to the amplifiers that speaker makers bring to shows - if you like Dynaudio for example - they don't bring Bryston - they bring Octave tube amps - the pairing is quite excellent. Wilson - Rogue or Lamm, Marten - Cary, Lamm, Audio Note, Quad - their own tube amps.

So yeah I was in your camp - my first exposure to tubes was Copland and I was roundly unimpressed - same exact arguments you guys make to me I was making to tube guys - and as I say late 90s early 2000s I was ready to buy Bryston - I ended up going to Arcam SS gear because I didn't need the power but I sure as hell didn't buy the tube amp. And when I heard Mcintosh the first time - ugh - still ugh. I am convinced Scaena sounded so bad at CES because of the McIntosh stuff. Hell the dealer here who sells it was upset they connected their McIntosh to Cerwin Vega speakers. Knowing Terry (the owner) that's all the speaker that McIntosh would warrant and he told the McIntosh rep right to his face that "it's a perfect match - one soulless company connected to another soulless company" in that both are now owned by corporations in it strictly for the buck.

See people get upset with dealers like Soundhounds because they carry some lines they don't love - but it sells. Most buyers don't ask for advice because they think they have all the answers. Since 95% of the people don't listen to their advice and buy what they believe is best from reviews they don't have to change people's minds. And the dealer - contrary to popular belief - is in the driver's seat most of the time. It is not Soundhounds begging to sell McIntosh or Magnepan it is McIntosh and Magnepan begging Soundhounds to carry them. There are hundreds of very saleable manufacturers out there - there are maybe 3 audio dealers on the island of half a million people. So they don't have to lie and pretend they like stuff that they don't like.

I mean they laughed Clearaudio off the premises. They brought in a few tables based on show conditions - nice price great looks. This is a vinyl store - 20,000 LPs on the walls. Connected it up auditioned and every sales person hated it. They had the rep go in several times to "fix" the turntable - and they said - that's how it sounds. They sent all the tables back and sold the demo cheap. NAD - they carry NAD - the 320 Bee is popular - they hated it. I hated it - what a horrible pile of crap. Rotel blew it to the weeds.

Bryston's SST2 - a little smirk and a "well it sounds like Bryston" - in other words - it will join the thousands of amps on Ebay or the piles they get as trade ins. The Bryton guru in town ready to buy the new cd player - owns all bryston - hears the AN entry level player - I watch him come out of the room flabbergasted thanking them so much for making him listen to something else first and waxing poetic as to how truly awful the Bryston was in direct comparison.

This happens a lot. And while I may go off on this topic too much - it's because it is frustrating to talk to people who have ZERO experience in this and yet are quite willing to opine on it all the time. Okay RGA went from SS to SET but I heard a $300 chines tube amp and it sucked so all tube amps suck - or I heard a fashion first cheap parts quality company like McIntosh that sells whatever will sell at the time - tubes - but when SS came out they dropped it immediately and sold SS. then tubes get popular so they make tube amps again - yeah there is a company with a sonic aesthetic - they only want the fast buck.

But how about the guy who owned a $20,000GBP ($45,000Cad at that time system) PMC Bryston set-up - here is a a guy who owned some of the best Professional grade loudspeakers and Bryston - as measurably excellent a SS amplifier maker as it gets.

He brings a little AN system home basically to laugh at it compared to his brilliant state of the art measuring zero distortion flat frequency response, awesome bass transmission line super duper hi-fi system. So my word may not be gold due to perceived bias but

General Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note Level 3 system Other by KevinF (http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Other/Audio-Note/Level-3-system/general/345133.html)

And it doesn't by the way end at Audio Note - I am quite happy to leave them completely and entirely out of the discussion - Acapella and Einstein, Trenner and Freidl and VAC, Wilson and Rogue - it goes on and on. At least audition a few of the truly "good" tube amp makers - not the corporate fashion product designs.

And while Copland is a smaller outfit that is about the sound - there is also the fact that you won't like that presentation - I didn't but I can respect them for having a belief on what the sound should be even if I disagree with their take on it.

And you can't even go by design all the time - a Jolida 302B and an Antique Soundlabs AQ 1003DT sound almost nothing alike - despiite the same basic price and design and tubes.

[JohnMichael]

RGA I get a kick out of you. You sure like to type. I wonder if you are the same about other aspects of your life. If you like single malt scotch must I also like it. Do I have to work to develop a taste for it. Just for point of fact and not point of argument I do like single malt.

My point being I have heard two tube amps and was not impressed. I have a solid state integrated amp that I enjoy and presents the music as I like it and as it sounds to me at concerts. I have to ask why you think I need to try other tube amps. I neither have the time nor the interest. Why would I shop for something in which I have no interest. No need to further try and lure anyone to the tube side. Enjoy what you enjoy but the rest of us are not wrong.

[frenchmon]

Nah - Tubes are better all the way

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?

[Poultrygeist]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers (http://www.miniwatt.com.hk/amplifiers/miniwatt-s1.html)

[markw]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers (http://www.miniwatt.com.hk/amplifiers/miniwatt-s1.html)Funny, it didn't sound too great to me. If you, or anybody for that matter, thinks a video on the internet will impress any sentient beings, then the sanity and/or gullibility of their target market speaks for itself.

"Hey,Cletus! Y'all come har 'n lissen to how great this Bose thingie sounds! Thar playin it rat now rat cheer on the TV box!!! Yee Ha! I shore gotta get me one of those"

With your extensive experience in this field you should be aware that even a watt or so will make some noise from virtually any speaker. How loud and how good it is is another matter entirely. Back in"the day" I drove a friends AR3 (not even an "a") with a one tube (50L6) amp which I'd say put out maybe one watt, going downhill with a stiff backwind, and it sounded "decent" until it was called upon to do anything like volume or bass.

While we're on this subject, here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4F5zXbPrNc) a video of a chihuahua humping a great dane.

[markw]

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?From his recent posts here it's fairly obvious he either doesn't know the difference between the two or uses them interchangably to suit his needs and impress the unknowing.

[frenchmon]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers (http://www.miniwatt.com.hk/amplifiers/miniwatt-s1.html)

Hey man, I've seen those clips before...and i've known about the little amps for a long time.....but my question to you is...what makes you think that is better than SS? And if one does not think its better, does that make him wrong? Did you notice how many turns of the wheel it took to get good volume?....just sayin.

[Poultrygeist]

The MBL 116 is like 83db's so it's amazing 2.5 watts could even move the drivers. The Miniwatt is much better matched with Zu's.

Here's Srajan Ebaen's review of the Miniwatt for the non-believers.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/miniwatt/miniwatt.htm

[frenchmon]

The MBL 116 is like 83db's so it's amazing 2.5 watts could even move the drivers. The Miniwatt is much better matched with Zu's.

Here's Srajan Ebaen's review of the Miniwatt for the non-believers.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/miniwatt/miniwatt.htm

What do you mean by non-believers? And you still did not answer the question I asked above.

[markw]

What do you mean by non-believers? And you still did not answer the question I asked above.As if we couldn't post hundreds of glowing reviews of high powered solid state amps? :rolleyes:

Fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetish) - look it up.

[RGA]

RGA I get a kick out of you. You sure like to type. I wonder if you are the same about other aspects of your life. If you like single malt scotch must I also like it. Do I have to work to develop a taste for it. Just for point of fact and not point of argument I do like single malt.

My point being I have heard two tube amps and was not impressed. I have a solid state integrated amp that I enjoy and presents the music as I like it and as it sounds to me at concerts. I have to ask why you think I need to try other tube amps. I neither have the time nor the interest. Why would I shop for something in which I have no interest. No need to further try and lure anyone to the tube side. Enjoy what you enjoy but the rest of us are not wrong.

This is an audiophile forum - let's take your food example - if you hate the taste of scotch then it probably doesn't matter which scotch you try you will hate it.

But stereo equipment as an analogy to beverage or food you have to try and make a better one. It's not like a guy who likes wine is the tube guy and the guy who likes SS is a Scotch guy - it's not that far apart.

Tubes have a much wider range of sonic types - based around the tube. An EL 84 based tube amp doesn't sound the same as an EL 34 based amp or a KT 88. There are plenty of tube guys who hate the sound of some of these output tubes.

Personally I do my best to ignore the design cause I really don't care - Technical Brain impressed me, Sugden and Heed impressed me and they're all solid state. I would buy these over plenty of tube designs - I am not a slave to the design.

Having said that however, the best amps I have heard in virtually every price class has been SE, and with little to no feedback (whether SS or tube). The blind tests would indicate this as well - and it's pretty obvious as well since everyone who makes the comparisons that I know always choose it as the designers of all those top SS makers illustrated when they chose a no feedback amp over their own design and why the Sugden A21a has won every blind test it's been in - again with manufacturers sitting in the listening chairs.

An analogy with scotch doesn't work. It has to be something where there is a same general classification - wine makes more sense to me but I am not a wine guy so I can't make a good analogy of that.

I would use hamburgers - McIntosh may be a McDonalds double 1/4 pounder with cheese - lots of beef but will like give you the craps. But lots of SS amps are also McDonalds level burgers

A better than average SS amp may be a quality burger at Earls or proper restaurants where it's not sitting in a warmer for an hour.

If you are going to fairly compare amplfiers or burgers you can't compare McDonalds grade stuff to Gordon Ramsey level burgers which will like be a steak between home baked buns.

My argument here is more on the absolute top end of the range. At normal prices I can find good SS amps - but after a certain point Tubes take over and really they don't have competitors in SS. Even with high power demands as there are 800Watt+ per channel tube amps out there.

Like I say - an audiophile forum suggests that people are interested in audio gear - so I assume that people are interested in trying more than two tube amplifiers. And personally I could care less if you never want to try another one - but don't think for a second because you tried two you have any clue what you're talking about when you start dumping on tube amps. I dislike a lot of tube amps as well - so I am not terribly surprised but it would be like me trying a Crowne and Sony receiver and saying - all SS sucks because those amps were atrocious. I will never audition another SS amp because I heard those two and that represents the technology fairly. C'mon - it's an audiophile forum - the point is to try stuff out.

I was judging some technologies myself unfairly until I heard some of the better examples of it. And Tube amps are in no way shape or form the same as SET amps. My amp comes in a Push Pull version with more feedback - sounds good but completely outclassed by the SE version. But then it's about half the price so that's fine.

[RGA]

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?

First the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode - that is an objective fact - every other design and all designs using feedback skew the timing of a system and it can't be fixed. There are Solid State Single Ended no feedback amplfiers - like the A21a which you can make the case falls into this camp - but it's still not the same - not quite and that not quite can be heard - nevertheless it's one of the closest you can get without having a tube so it's actually a nice compromise since tubes to me are a pain in the ass. A necessary evil.


The problem with feedback amplifiers:

"all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion."

There have been several blind level matched tests done to show that when people are not listening and judging tube amps unfairly due to their preconceived biases (like the folks who say SS measures better so it will sound better) when that bias is removed and all they can do is use their own two ears - they ALWAYS choose the no feedback amplifier - whether a no feedback tube amplifier over SS or a No feedback amplifier like the Sugden A21a over any and all high negative feedback amplfiers "regardless of price."

In the tests that have been down the no feedback aspect is a big key but as no feedback tube also beats SS then at the very least the tubes are not having a negative impact to the result even if the main quality being chosen is a lack of feedback. What I have not seen is a test between the Sugden SS no feedback amp versus a tube no feedback amplfier to determine if the tube aspect would win or not.

As for subjective - there is always a subjective element - there are people who like processed cheeze wiz over top grade Belgium or French hand turned from the best milk cheese available - that fact that people with horrible taste buds and general taste like crap more than real quality is still an opinion - there will always be people like that

[JohnMichael]

Like I say - an audiophile forum suggests that people are interested in audio gear - so I assume that people are interested in trying more than two tube amplifiers. And personally I could care less if you never want to try another one - but don't think for a second because you tried two you have any clue what you're talking about when you start dumping on tube amps.



I do not dump on tube amps I just have not enjoyed any I have heard. So I am looking no further. You dump much more on SS so get down from the soap box and let people like what they like. You are boring me.

[RGA]

I do not dump on tube amps I just have not enjoyed any I have heard. So I am looking no further. You dump much more on SS so get down from the soap box and let people like what they like. You are boring me.

You auditioned 2 tube amps.

I have heard well over 100 Solid state amps. You have no idea if you would enjoy tube amps based on hearing 2 of them (especially when the noted McIntosh line-up has a huge number of detractors within the tube fandom world) just as any tube die hard could not dismiss Solid State by hearing just two.

Just like there are many different tube designs there are many different SS designs - is the SS a single ended design, is it class A, A/B, B (Naim), Class T, is it DC coupled - what kind of transformers. And then what about the hybrids?

The fact is a Krell sounds a LOT closer to a $400 Rotel than a $400 tube amp will sound to a $3000 tube amp. And yet SS guys dole money out for tiny little subtle improvements (none of which they could hear in a blind audition) and dump on Rotel and rave about Krell. But they'll audition 2 tube amps which can have wildly different sonic attributes? What the hell is that? One of the reasons I don't like a lot of SS is the very reason that expensive SS tends to sound too much like a $150 Crown amps I can buy in a pawn shop. It's irritating to spend so much on something that sounds a lot like very cheap audio. Tube amps show dramatic improvements over lower priced kit.

This is not unlike CD replay - same small improvements - going from a $300 cartridge to a $1000 cartridge is a beyond belief improvement - $1000 cd player versus $300 cd player - meh - it's better but it's mostly never beyond belief and in a blind test - well most "fail" - with the cartridges - no one fails they always choose the $1000 cartridge. In other words I want massive upgrades (and I want to hear them - not just see the dollars I spent and assume it's better) for my bucks.

Any given design can beat out others - I liked the Heed amps for under $3000 as well as Sugden - both are Solid State and wildly different from each other.

I even get people who like Bryston - I liked it too - as I said I nearly bought one that's how much I liked it. But I also liked it so much because I only heard umm two tube amplifiers - a Copland and later McIntosh. To me Bryston is a fine place to start out in this hobby - but there is way more out there and the more you hear the less well it held up.

[JohnMichael]

You auditioned 2 tube amps.

I have heard well over 100 Solid state amps. You have no idea if you would enjoy tube amps based on hearing 2 of them (especially when the noted McIntosh line-up has a huge number of detractors within the tube fandom world) just as any tube die hard could not dismiss Solid State by hearing just two.

Just like there are many different tube designs there are many different SS designs - is the SS a single ended design, is it class A, A/B, B (Naim), Class T, is it DC coupled - what kind of transformers. And then what about the hybrids?

The fact is a Krell sounds a LOT closer to a $400 Rotel than a $400 tube amp will sound to a $3000 tube amp. And yet SS guys dole money out for tiny little subtle improvements (none of which they could hear in a blind audition) and dump on Rotel and rave about Krell. But they'll audition 2 tube amps which can have wildly different sonic attributes? What the hell is that? One of the reasons I don't like a lot of SS is the very reason that expensive SS tends to sound too much like a $150 Crown amps I can buy in a pawn shop. It's irritating to spend so much on something that sounds a lot like very cheap audio. Tube amps show dramatic improvements over lower priced kit.

This is not unlike CD replay - same small improvements - going from a $300 cartridge to a $1000 cartridge is a beyond belief improvement - $1000 cd player versus $300 cd player - meh - it's better but it's mostly never beyond belief and in a blind test - well most "fail" - with the cartridges - no one fails they always choose the $1000 cartridge. In other words I want massive upgrades (and I want to hear them - not just see the dollars I spent and assume it's better) for my bucks.

Any given design can beat out others - I liked the Heed amps for under $3000 as well as Sugden - both are Solid State and wildly different from each other.

I even get people who like Bryston - I liked it too - as I said I nearly bought one that's how much I liked it. But I also liked it so much because I only heard umm two tube amplifiers - a Copland and later McIntosh. To me Bryston is a fine place to start out in this hobby - but there is way more out there and the more you hear the less well it held up.



I have said my peace and I am finished with this thread.

[Poultrygeist]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).

[JohnMichael]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).



I am glad you enjoy what you enjoy. We had a local audio store where the owner kept pushing his interests on others to the point where he is out of business. You can lose out if you keep pushing your ideas and ignoring what is important to others.

[Poultrygeist]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?

[markw]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?This place could use the action and when you two get rolling it's almost like having Spanky posting about his beloved JBL Control series speakers..

[Jack in Wilmington]

This place could use the action and when you two get rolling it's almost like having Spanky posting about his beloved JBL Control series speakers..

Watch out Mark, you may wake the sleeping troll.

[frenchmon]

First the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode - that is an objective fact - every other design and all designs using feedback skew the timing of a system and it can't be fixed. There are Solid State Single Ended no feedback amplfiers - like the A21a which you can make the case falls into this camp - but it's still not the same - not quite and that not quite can be heard - nevertheless it's one of the closest you can get without having a tube so it's actually a nice compromise since tubes to me are a pain in the ass. A necessary evil.


The problem with feedback amplifiers:

"all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion."

There have been several blind level matched tests done to show that when people are not listening and judging tube amps unfairly due to their preconceived biases (like the folks who say SS measures better so it will sound better) when that bias is removed and all they can do is use their own two ears - they ALWAYS choose the no feedback amplifier - whether a no feedback tube amplifier over SS or a No feedback amplifier like the Sugden A21a over any and all high negative feedback amplfiers "regardless of price."

In the tests that have been down the no feedback aspect is a big key but as no feedback tube also beats SS then at the very least the tubes are not having a negative impact to the result even if the main quality being chosen is a lack of feedback. What I have not seen is a test between the Sugden SS no feedback amp versus a tube no feedback amplfier to determine if the tube aspect would win or not.

As for subjective - there is always a subjective element - there are people who like processed cheeze wiz over top grade Belgium or French hand turned from the best milk cheese available - that fact that people with horrible taste buds and general taste like crap more than real quality is still an opinion - there will always be people like that

When I buy gear...the first thing I want to know is does it sound good to me in my sysytem....the second is whats its history with reliability....the third is how much does it cost. Thats it!

Thanks for answering my question RGA but I could care less about an amp being " the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode" or such other things that don't mean a hill of beans to me...no offense RGA...and I respect your opinions and understandings in these matters, but I don't share your sentiments about it.

...frenchmon---

[JohnMichael]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?



No but when I post that I am not interested and someone keeps quoting me and telling me I am wrong for not listening to tubes. Yes we need exchange of ideas but the same ideas again and again is not an exchange but preaching.

[Poultrygeist]

"this place could use the action"

markw, just don't get me started on open baffles vs monkey coffins ;-)

[RGA]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).

The link I provided earlier from the Bryston owner made a good analogy - "I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued." General Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note Level 3 system Other by KevinF (http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Other/Audio-Note/Level-3-system/general/345133.html)

I grew up with SS amplifiers - and ultimately that analogy holds true IME

[RGA]

When I buy gear...the first thing I want to know is does it sound good to me in my sysytem....the second is whats its history with reliability....the third is how much does it cost. Thats it!

Thanks for answering my question RGA but I could care less about an amp being " the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode" or such other things that don't mean a hill of beans to me...no offense RGA...and I respect your opinions and understandings in these matters, but I don't share your sentiments about it.

...frenchmon---

Frenchmon

Thanks for reminding me of that fact. The problem is audio is an experiential thing. When you try to rip that down into words it falls apart. You ask my why I like the sound of AN - what can I really say? I am a science first guy - so when I listen to something that handedly destroys most stuff when actually listening to it I am in the chartered territory of Jehovah Witness that comes to my door trying to tell me they know the "truth." And it's entirely not the side of the fence I like being on.

The fact is an AN complete system is a difficult proposition to make the case for. It's very easy to dismiss. It's bad enough to be in the camp of vinyl or SET - you can make measurement arguments for SET - there is possibly enough measurement merit with regards to feedback and low distortion at low level to get someone to at least try one. Vinyl - no chance - no matter how good the turntable measures a single pop or click (surface noise) will have people write it off entirely.

The speakers - are so-so in the measurement department - they're well balanced in the listening chair and if set-up correctly but in general measurements are never taken where anyone actually listens to them - I can argue that case and the more objective may consider trying them based on that - some will not because they believe all speakers should be measured the same way because that's the way they measure.

AN CD players - well without the analog and digital filter - they measure worse than any CD player on the market. Add all of those technologies together and frankly I can't really make the case for it. I am left to the only real argument of "it simply sounds more accurate, more realistic, and thus better, than alternatives that I have heard. Well gee - anyone can claim that kind of stuff. I can attempt to bend the English language all sorts of ways but at the end of the day the legs I have to stand on are very wobbly indeed. But I can't throw out my experience of it - when it embarrasses a top various combinations of Sim Audio/Audio Research/YBA/Classe/Mark Levinson/Bryston/Naim/Krell connected to Wilson/Magnepan/B&W/Paradigm/Genelec/Elac/.Martin Logan/ PMC/Meridian/Dynaudio/Quad/Sonus Faber/ etc then I have to go by experience - I simply can't chuck it out because the technology and the numbers makes me uncomfortable.

[markw]

Ummmm.....

[pacjohn635]

outlaw 2150 receiver is getting a lot of positive reviews.

[firebook23]

Ummmm.....Ha! classic!

[firebook23]

RGA VS JohnMichael


Albert Einstein Quotes
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[bobsticks]

An analogy with scotch doesn't work. It has to be something where there is a same general classification - wine makes more sense to me but I am not a wine guy so I can't make a good analogy of that.

I would use hamburgers - McIntosh may be a McDonalds double 1/4 pounder with cheese - lots of beef but will like give you the craps. But lots of SS amps are also McDonalds level burgers


a) That's just disingenuous and you know it.
b) Clearly you have no culinary skills.

[RGA]

Deleted