Data Color's Spyder TV calibration system, part 2

[edtyct]

Some time ago, I mentioned that I had one of these in-house and that I hoped to give it a go as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I still don't have the time to do it any justice. I also mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to lending it out to others for calibration purposes. I was thinking about it again today as my eyes chanced on it lying idle in my office. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, for a number of reasons, or whether anyone would even want to bother with it. But I noticed venkman's post about calibration this morning, and the subject does come up regularly. AVMASTER, I think, was trying to become a Spyder dealer. Robert, I think, wanted to know if it would work with front projectors. Out of the box, no, but I haven't studied it enough to know whether it can be adapted.

At any rate, if I were to send it out, at least three criteria would have to be met:

(1) The person would have to be recognizable to me from this forum, say, with a minimum of posts (to be determined) and an address plainly on view for me to see. This strategy would be protection against someone joining the group just to run away with the Spyder system.

(2) I'd have to charge a small rental fee as further, even if inadequate, protection against theft or damage. No offense to anyone in the abstract, but the likelihood of anything in circulation surviving forever is pretty small. I'm thinking of a fee equivalent to DVE's lowest cost, possibly payable via PayPal as a cash transaction, which would also help to protect me. Obviously, shipping costs would also be the recipient's responsibility. I have a FedEx express (not ground) account, which I could use for those who'd like to work fast, or I could do a regular USPS parcel post. The total cost would be far less than the Spyder's $200 purchase price.

(3) Whoever uses it would be on their own. I don't have the time to do a tutorial. But the documentation and software are very comprehensive. The Spyder seems extremely easy to deploy. You just need a laptop or a desktop PC near your TV. If you don't have either, fuhgetaboutit.

What do you think about this idea? Does it have any value? Sir TT, what do you think about it? Wooch, Kexo, Topspeed, etc. ? If this kind of offer isn't appropriate to the forum in the first place, by all means have it retracted.

Ed

[Hairsonfire]

Ed, you gave me some very helpful advice a while back. I am the guy that recently bought the LG62SX4D DLP. Let's talk turkey. I live in Newport, Rhode Island and would love to give this a spin. How much "rental fee" are you talking about? Just let me know. Looking forward to hearing from you!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Some time ago, I mentioned that I had one of these in-house and that I hoped to give it a go as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I still don't have the time to do it any justice. I also mentioned that I wouldn't be averse to lending it out to others for calibration purposes. I was thinking about it again today as my eyes chanced on it lying idle in my office. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, for a number of reasons, or whether anyone would even want to bother with it. But I noticed venkman's post about calibration this morning, and the subject does come up regularly. AVMASTER, I think, was trying to become a Spyder dealer. Robert, I think, wanted to know if it would work with front projectors. Out of the box, no, but I haven't studied it enough to know whether it can be adapted.

At any rate, if I were to send it out, at least three criteria would have to be met:

(1) The person would have to be recognizable to me from this forum, say, with a minimum of posts (to be determined) and an address plainly on view for me to see. This strategy would be protection against someone joining the group just to run away with the Spyder system.

(2) I'd have to charge a small rental fee as further, even if inadequate, protection against theft or damage. No offense to anyone in the abstract, but the likelihood of anything in circulation surviving forever is pretty small. I'm thinking of a fee equivalent to DVE's lowest cost, possibly payable via PayPal as a cash transaction, which would also help to protect me. Obviously, shipping costs would also be the recipient's responsibility. I have a FedEx express (not ground) account, which I could use for those who'd like to work fast, or I could do a regular USPS parcel post. The total cost would be far less than the Spyder's $200 purchase price.

(3) Whoever uses it would be on their own. I don't have the time to do a tutorial. But the documentation and software are very comprehensive. The Spyder seems extremely easy to deploy. You just need a laptop or a desktop PC near your TV. If you don't have either, fuhgetaboutit.

What do you think about this idea? Does it have any value? Sir TT, what do you think about it? Wooch, Kexo, Topspeed, etc. ? If this kind of offer isn't appropriate to the forum in the first place, by all means have it retracted.

Ed

Hey, even I wouldn't mind trying it. I was going to get one for myself, however I was waiting for somebody to tell me how well it works. If you don't mind the wear and tear that circulating this product will incur, I think it is a great idea.

[edtyct]

Hairsonfire, Sir TT,

That's great. It will be gratifying to put this thing to use. Maybe H can try it out first and then send it directly to Sir TT. The system has its own little case, which I'll box up. I'll download the software into my PC and copy the literature for myself. Maybe we can get this show on the road by Monday. Hairsonfire, I'll send you a PM later today so that we can arrange the rental fee and the shipping. Newport won't be much of a haul. You can work out a schedule with Sir TT. We'll see if anyone else gets involved.

Ed

[Hairsonfire]

I don't have a problem with giving you my info: My name is Kelly Williamson, work number is 401-841-7004. My "real" email is thomas.williamson@nwc.navy.mil. I work for the Naval War College here in Newport. Give me a ring! Terrence, looking forward to speaking to you, too (eventually).

[AVMASTER]

i think it's a great idea, i've contacted the company several times with a favorable response but still no merchandise. Send me a private e-mail with your rental cost.
thanks

[edtyct]

For those of you that I've PM'd and who may be interested in this project, I have asked Datacolor whether they would be willing to release the system software, totally under their control, to several other computers besides mine. The upside for them would be a review of the product that might reach a large number of potential buyers. I'll keep you posted here or by PM when they've decided.

[hmmmm]

For those of you that I've PM'd and who may be interested in this project, I have asked Datacolor whether they would be willing to release the system software, totally under their control, to several other computers besides mine. The upside for them would be a review of the product that might reach a large number of potential buyers. I'll keep you posted here or by PM when they've decided.

I had actually checked this out lately and would definately be interested for my DLP. I know you don't know me but I could send you my company's info if you wanted to check to see if you trust me. It could be sent to my business which has a good reputation. At least that's what I hear:) Paypal would be no problem.
Thanks!

[edtyct]

I have spoken about my collaborative review of the Spyder with Basak S. Atilgan, Product Manager, Datacolor's Home Theater products, who has offered full cooperation and technical information as necessary--and, more important, has authorized me to release the software to additional computers. So this project is officially a go. The illustrious Sir TT, Hairsonfire, and AVMASTER are already onboard. Mr. (I assume) hmmmm and others who want to enlist in the project should shoot me a PM, and we'll try to set something up. I may solicit a few people on this forum who seem particularly savvy about video technical matters. The best possible scenario will have a waiting list for the Spyder. I hope that we have enough interested people to actually require a cutoff, at least for the time being.

Ed

[topspeed]

That's a heckuva generous offer, Ed. My computer is in the office on the opposite side of the house, so it sounds like I'll have to take a pass. Lemme do some research as to what this thing is, and if it's as cool as you say, I'll try to borrow a laptop from someone.

Thanks again.

ts

[edtyct]

I had to lift this thread up to the top of the page again. Boy, are my arms tired. I'm getting ready to send this thing out, with just a few things to clear up. First victim is Hairsonfire. Then it's bound for the West coast to Sir TT and LJ. Let's see if we can pick anyone else up out there (Topspeed?) before it heads back my way. I have a person or two in mind to contact for stops on the trip back. Mr. hmmm and AVMASTER are in the Baltimore-Washington area. I'll have to contact AVMASTER again; he fell off the face of the earth. Sorry to those concerned for the wait. Thanks for your patience. Almost there.

Ed

[GMichael]

Ed,

This is great of you to do this. You da man!

I hope everyone will post how well it works for them for all to read.

I am not ready to try it yet. Maybe late summer if this works for projectors too.

Thanks Ed.

[edtyct]

GM,

No projectors, I'm sorry to say--at least to my knowledge. I have yet to get fully acquainted with what the Spyder can do, or be adapted to do. I'm hoping that while it's on the road, I'll get a better handle on it, and Datacolor has pledged full cooperation for the project in every possible respect (I owe them big time for releasing the software for me to use as I see fit. I still don't know what will happen when the first person other than me installs the disk, but I am relieved that Datacolor will help to resolve any difficulties). Anyway, at the end of the project, I'll have all the data and will let AudioReview handle the full review however it wants. Datacolor may want it as well.

Ed

[topspeed]

Quick question, Ed; how complex is this thing? I'm not the most tech savvy guy around and if this requires a fair degree of computer ability, I'm in trouble. Do you just stick it on the screen and follow the calibration recommendations from the software? Will I need to acess the ISF part of my monitor?

[L.J.]

Here's (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DatacolorSpyderTVreview.php) an article AH did on it.

[edtyct]

Topspeed,

It's a cinch to use. No technical skills necessary beyond counting, using a mouse, and following instructions. Most of us American males have already mastered the mouse part; the rest of it we can fake. No need to access anything but the user adjustments. If you have the time and the computer, nothing should stop you from taking it for a test run.

L.J.

I actually saw it. I'm hoping to add a little more comparative "before" data, and to extend the sample beyond one kind of TV. Needless to day, if everyone has the same TV, that part of the plan won't fly, but it'll still be worthwhile.

Ed

[edtyct]

The adventure has begun. In a day or two, Hairsonfire will have the system. I've put a letter inside the box for every participant to read. It should stay in the box for the next in line. I've also printed out a single-page questionnaire to make data collection easier--one for each customer. I haven't confirmed with all parties yet, so the itinerary is still a little loose. But at this point, we have Hairsonfire, Sir TT, L.J., Topspeed (?), Wescott, AVMASTER (?), hmmmm, and possibly a couple of stragglers before the whole shebang comes back to me. I'll update the main thread with info as we go along. Anyone sitting on the fence should decide as soon as possible so that we can organize the shipping routes efficiently. By the end of next week the system will be in California. It should circulate there completely before heading out, presumably to Texas. If we play our cards right, only Sir TT, the first Californian, will get completely screwed with shipping costs across the country (smile).

Unless someone has a better idea, I would think that three to four days would be enough for everyone to calibrate and collate, though we can accommodate delays if necessary. Feel free to send me a PM to give or get info, or to find out who the next person in line should be. At the very least, I'd like to know the address, the date, and the carrier for each shipment so that I can serve as the point man (and stay involved).

I tried to plan this project out as completely as possible, but I probably missed something here and there (besides a definite itinerary). Hopefully, we can pick up my lapses as we continue. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

Best,
Ed

[Jim Clark]

Edtyct,

Your mailbox is full but I sent you an email. If your list is full, don't sweat it. I've been sitting on the fence for a long time basically due to the fact that I'm not very knowledgeable on the video side of things and wasn't sure I could do the system justice. Seems like it may be fun and I may actually be able to figure it out based on the posts and reviews I've read. If there's room still, I'd like to play.

Regards,
jc

[edtyct]

Jim,

I replied to your email. It's an honor to have you on the roster.

I have room in my PM box if anyone else is interested.

Ed

[Jim Clark]

Funny, on the General Forum page there's a thread talking about how lame AR is. Over the years Audio Review has been the most awesome site I've ever come across. This is just the latest example. Thank you!

Regards,
jc

[edtyct]

Here's a loose end that I neglected in my note accompanying the Spyder, as well as in this thread. Calibration is best performed when a display is in its most neutral state--that is, with no settings that deviate from "flat." But not only can "extra" TV modes and features interfere with calibration; so can those on the DVD player itself, a point that I failed to make until now. Therefore, you should go into calibration without any black-level enhancement features or color or gamma shifts engaged in the DVD player menu, even if you needed it to pass "blacker than video black" to calibrate brightness and contrast with DVE or AVIA. Sometimes it's hard to tell just what constitutes "flat" on a DVD player. Let's define it as the state in which the player arrived in your home (unlike that of a TV out of the box, which is as far from neutral as you'll ever see it). What we want to do is take the DVD player and the TV's extracurricular activities out of the equation as much as possible so that the results can be attributable mainly to the Spyder. This should give you an idea of how hard an accurate, untainted calibration is to achieve. Unless you know how a DVD player and TV affect color and greyscale, you can never be sure that your calibration is perfectly clean.

[topspeed]

I'm in, Ed. I'll take it after Sir T or LJ. Sir T lives in the Bay Area and LJ in So Cal while I'm in Central Cal. Mebbe I can intercept it on the way down?

[L.J.]

Actually I'm in the valley too.

[edtyct]

Sir TT has run into possible scheduling problems, so Topspeed or LJ may be next in line after Hairsonfire. You guys may end up fighting over who gets the privilege of paying the most shipping. I thought Sir TT was going to get that distinction. He still might.

[L.J.]

I'm in, Ed. I'll take it after Sir T or LJ. Sir T lives in the Bay Area and LJ in So Cal while I'm in Central Cal. Mebbe I can intercept it on the way down?

Topspeed,

How far are you from Modesto? I'm just curious

[topspeed]

LJ,

I pm'd you.

[edtyct]

Bump. I'm wondering whether anyone else wants to join the club. A few more people would be great. Californians? Texans? East Coasters?

[edtyct]

PDK is now officially in. He joins Hairsonfire (who currently has the Spyder), Sir TT (who can't schedule yet), L.J., Topspeed, Wescott, Jim Clark, and hmmm. Two more and I'll shut the door, unless there's a groundswell.

[Hairsonfire]

Hey gang, I just received the Spyder in the mail. Won't be able to get into it until this weekend. Hey Ed, please keep me updated on who this goes to next. This is so cool! Someone gets a great idea, makes a plan, implements it - Shazam! I am impressed.

[ericl]

You guys mind if I turn this "project" into a review article? I can sysnthesize all of your impressions and results into one concise review/article.. Anyone opposed to this idea? email me at elobue@audioreview.com if you're cool with this.

thanks,
eric

[edtyct]

Eric,
I sent you an email, but I thought I'd open the letter to all interested parties. The review at the end of the tunnel was the plan all along. I was going to do it, and even got the company's blessing. Datacolor released the software to me for multiple use and offered any help along the way. I thought that I'd notified you about it. Should we work together on it?

Ed

[edtyct]

Sorry for the bump, but I wanted to make sure that potentially interested parties don't miss the opportunity.

Ed

[Hairsonfire]

First of all. I was very impressed with ease of use. Once you download the program from the CD it prompts you for your particular tv type, model number, etc., and then it asks you to have the DVD in your player before you actually mount the spyder unit on the screen. (Note 1 here, a little dampness on the suction cups is recommended, Note 2, don't do like I did and start the process comfortably sitting where you normally have your laptop - unless it is three feet from your monitor because that's about how close you need to be due to the length of the cable of the spyder unit.) It then has you define the values of your tv's calibration options, i.e., contrast, brightness, color, color temp. All of my options are in increments of 100 - 1 or 0 being the lowest and 100 being the highes setting. Which brings me to a problem I encountered - my tint values did not fit the same definition as the other options. My tv shows a grid with Red on the left and Green on the right, with the gradient being exactly 0 in the center and increments of 50 on either side of the central marker - the spyder did not seem to have an option (I am going to recalibrate later but more on that in a moment) for that. So, this is the neat part. It has you switching between different test patterns for its DVD and tells you where to set the levels, it does a image capture (complete with camera shutter clicking sound and neat "signal traveling through spyder" graphics) and it will keep having you change the settings. First the lowest value, then the highest value, about five to seven adjustments and then it finally arrives at the optimum value - cool! (Note 3 here, pay attention to what test pattern it requests, it's very easy to miss that there is a different test pattern required on the screen. Also, be sure to get the menu off the monitor screen before prompting the image capture - live and learn. Note 4, get ready for weary fingers with all the remote button pushing between the tv menu and the dvd player menu) It times the whole process and it took me 32 minutes for the whole evolution. I don't believe that there is a calibration process for Sharpness, which surprised me. My own mistakes notwithstanding, I was extremely impressed with the final results but as I said earlier, I am going to run it one more time to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[Jim Clark]

First of all. I was very impressed with ease of use. ...

Great, but what are you impressions of the adjustments? Does it make a noticeable improvement on your set?

Regards,
jc

[Hairsonfire]

All right gang, I ran the calibration process again last night and I am convinced that through meticulous attention to detail (this time) I have the absolutely best image for my monitor in this particular environment. I certainly did miss a lot my first time through. The program does have an option for non-conventional grids, like my tint control. When the grid shows a 0 as the center and increments to the left and right, you simply enter the highest negative number, in my case, -50, as the lowest value, and 50 as the highest value. I was right that there is not a calibration process for sharpness. Although, the DVD does have a test pattern labeled sharpness. Another note here folks, the spyder unit is very conveniently tripod mountable, and that is the most effective way to employ it. If you do not have a tripod (I forgot I had one for my SPL meter) be sure to put a big pillow or folded up blanket under your monitor if the suction cups lose cohesion. Luckily I had the foresight to do this and it was quite satisfying to hear the spyder softly land as opposed to smashing to pieces on my hardwood floor. I have been using AVIA for years and I was quite pleased to see that the black and white levels from the spyder calibration did not deviate radically from AVIA's results - they were significant differences, but not huge. I have never been able to successfully use AVIA's labor intensive color calibration feature (with the little plastic and cardboard colored slides - what a pain). The spyder addressed that with the same ease as black and white levels. Well, that's about the extent of detail I care to go into here today, but I will be happy to answer any questions. Overall, a very satisfying experience. Hey Ed, where the heck does this thing go next?

[edtyct]

While we have Jim Clark on the hook, why don't you PM him to see whether he's willing and able now. That way, you won't have to ship directly to the other coast. Then, Jim can ship to one of the Californians. Maybe Texas and South Dakota can be next, followed by Baltimore. We still have room for other takers. Anybody out there encouraged by Hairsonfire's experience?

[Jim Clark]

While we have Jim Clark on the hook, why don't you PM him to see whether he's willing and able now. That way, you won't have to ship directly to the other coast. Then, Jim can ship to one of the Californians. Maybe Texas and South Dakota can be next, followed by Baltimore. We still have room for other takers. Anybody out there encouraged by Hairsonfire's experience?

I'm here and while it looks like a serious case of line jumping I'm ready whenever.

This ought to be cool.

jc

[edtyct]

Hi Jim,

Well, I figure people would rather wait a smidgeon longer than have someone pay inordinate shipping charges. Hairsonfire is on the left coast; you kind of split the difference. And since Sir TT is indisposed at the moment, the line can re-form without putting anybody out. Enjoy it.

Ed

[edtyct]

Get your red hot Spyder TV calibration system! The Spyder is currently crossing the country. Soon it will be in a home near you. With the included software and colorimeter, the Spyder will find the optimum parameters for your CRT, LCD, LCoS, or DLP TV. For those of you who just bought a new HDTV or who have resisted the urge try a setup disk or to hire an ISF technician, this special offer may be your best chance to avoid the anxiety, the tediousness, and the expense of the customary calibration methods. Plus, you get the satisfaction of participating in a collaborative review of this revolutionary consumer product. PM the author for a place on the roster and the terms of use if you're interested. I know that this board has more video heads than have already signed up. The beauty of the Spyder, however, is that you don't have to be technically oriented to get the benefit of it.

For those of you already enlisted, please don't forget to read the letter and fill out the short form that I've placed in the box. Providing the requested information shouldn't take much time, and it will make the final assessment that much more telling.

Ed

[GMichael]

Maybe when this is all done, and you give your results back, you could add a little blurb for me as well. Here it is.

People with projectors need love too. Do they/you have anything in the works for us?

Thank you,
Mike

[edtyct]

Oh, ye of little faith. Since I started down this road, Datacolor has come up with something that might interest you. Whether it's out yet and how much it costs (surely more than $265) I don't know, but your prayers may have been answered: http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/CES_2006/_Press/Datacolor%20SpyderTV%20PRO%20CES.pdf (http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/CES_2006/_Press/Datacolor SpyderTV PRO CES.pdf)

[GMichael]

Oh, ye of little faith. Since I started down this road, Datacolor has come up with something that might interest you. Whether it's out yet and how much it costs (surely more than $265) I don't know, but your prayers may have been answered: http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/CES_2006/_Press/Datacolor%20SpyderTV%20PRO%20CES.pdf (http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/CES_2006/_Press/Datacolor SpyderTV PRO CES.pdf)

You are Da Man!

Thanks

[Hairsonfire]

. . . And is now wending it's way to Jim Clark (as of 1100 EST 24 Feb 06). Post Office says 3 - 5 days (darn insurance!)

[westcott]

Does that make Texas next?

[edtyct]

Hi Westcott,

Thanks for hauling this thread up to the top again. My muscles were giving out. In answer to your question, I'm thinking that the system should go to California after Kansas and swing back through Texas and South Dakota on the way back. That would keep shipping fairly even, except for poor Jim, who got stuck with Rhode Island, and maybe PDK, who seems to have Maryland on the docket. We'll see. I'm certainly open to suggestions, and I don't mind if you guys slug it out without me.

Ed

[L.J.]

Hi Westcott,

Thanks for hauling this thread up to the top again. My muscles were giving out. In answer to your question, I'm thinking that the system should go to California after Kansas and swing back through Texas and South Dakota on the way back. That would keep shipping fairly even, except for poor Jim, who got stuck with Rhode Island, and maybe PDK, who seems to have Maryland on the docket. We'll see. I'm certainly open to suggestions, and I don't mind if you guys slug it out without me.

Ed

Ed, that makes good sense. With should try to be as fair as possible, when dealing with the shipping.

Side questions: Ed, is it cool to calibrate mulitple sets. I'm not talking about all my friends and family, just in my own home?

[edtyct]

Yes, very cool. I suppose lugging it to the house of a friend or relation is okay, too, so long as it doesn't stay there or cause too much of a delay. Document all of the instances separately on one of the sheets in the box. Anyone is welcome to make copies of this form if it's running low. I don't remember how many I packed. Actually, I can just send an email attachment with more to whoever needs one.

[Jim Clark]

Not wanting to raise too many alarms at this point but the stuff still isn't here. Tomorrow will make it 1 week or more to the point, their 5 days. I have my fingers crossed. BTW, this site is sooo freaking slow right now as to make it virtually unuseable. Hope things get back to normal soon.

Regards,
jc

[Tarheel_]

sidebar....
this is why i continue to visit this site month after month...year after year. good work guys and thanks for all the hard work. It's a true labor of love...now back to some hockey!

[Jim Clark]

If I wasn't already a bit paranoid I'd have realized that 3-5 days from the Post Office is translated into 6-10 days for everyone else. I've now got my hands on the Spyder and will do my best to make short work of the calibrations. I do have a mini Spring Break trip planned with my family but it will go out Tuesday at the latest sooner if possible.

Thanks again to Ed for making it available and also to Hairsonfire for getting it off to me in good shape.

Regards,
jc

[Jim Clark]

It's past midnight so I'm gonna have to turn in but I wanted to share that this will be ready to ship out on Friday. I got the main TV done tonight and I'll do the basement TV tomorrow night. Doubt I'll mess with the bedroom TVs.

So, that means someone needs to tell me where this is going next. I don't care who, where, or how much it costs to ship. Hairsonfire got the worst of it. Thanks bud.

Full report to follow as soon as time allows. It was fun, I can let that much leak.

Regards,
jc

[L.J.]

It's past midnight so I'm gonna have to turn in but I wanted to share that this will be ready to ship out on Friday. I got the main TV done tonight and I'll do the basement TV tomorrow night. Doubt I'll mess with the bedroom TVs.

So, that means someone needs to tell me where this is going next. I don't care who, where, or how much it costs to ship. Hairsonfire got the worst of it. Thanks bud.

Full report to follow as soon as time allows. It was fun, I can let that much leak.

Regards,
jc

I believe Cali. is next on the list(if there is one). Then it would go out to Texas and make its way back. I'm not sure what Sir T's schedule is like, but I was assuming it would go to him, me and then to Topspeed. Not sure if anyone else is in Cali. If Sir T. is busy than I think I'm next in line.

Guys whaddaya think? Sir T, are you available to go next?

[edtyct]

I believe Cali. is next on the list(if there is one). Then it would go out to Texas and make its way back. I'm not sure what Sir T's schedule is like, but I was assuming it would go to him, me and then to Topspeed. Not sure if anyone else is in Cali. If Sir T. is busy than I think I'm next in line.

Guys whaddaya think? Sir T, are you available to go next?

LJ,

You hit the proverbial nail. I've seen evidence of Sir TT. Maybe he's back in California. I'd appreciate it if someone would PM him. I'll leave it to the Calif. contingent to decide whose next in line, followed by the rest of the Calif. contingent before Westcott gets his shot in Texas. My network (in my home) will be out for an undetermined period today for maintenance, so I may not be able to answer queries--not that I'm needed. With a little luck, however, I'll be able to check in quickly.

Jim,

I'm glad you had fun with it. You can leave your form in the box with Hairsonfire's. I'm looking forward to seeing the data.

Ed

[westcott]

LJ,

You hit the proverbial nail. I've seen evidence of Sir TT. Maybe he's back in California. I'd appreciate it if someone would PM him. I'll leave it to the Calif. contingent to decide whose next in line, followed by the rest of the Calif. contingent before Westcott gets his shot in Texas. My network (in my home) will be out for an undetermined period today for maintenance, so I may not be able to answer queries--not that I'm needed. With a little luck, however, I'll be able to check in quickly.

Jim,

I'm glad you had fun with it. You can leave your form in the box with Hairsonfire's. I'm looking forward to seeing the data.

Ed

Just trying to keep track.

westcott

[edtyct]

God Bless You, Westcott, for doing the heavy lifting. Maybe Jim and/or his designated successor will give us an update.

Ed

[L.J.]

The Spyder is on it's way to me, then I'm thinking Topspeed and SirTT will be the last for Cali. Unless someone else on this end steps up and gives this a run.

[L.J.]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

[Hairsonfire]

Jim, thanks for your thanks. T'was nothin. Glad you had fun, I did too.

[L.J.]

Just a heads up everyone. I ran the Spyder twice on my JVC and will do my bedroom TV tonight. I must say, that I'm pleased with the results so far. I haven't had a chance to do any serious viewing yet but I'll sit down this evening and peep it out.

Set up was very simple and the instructions are clear and easy to understand. The first run took me 31 min and the second took only 23. Use a tripod if you have one. I didn't want tp press the suction cup too hard against my screen, so the tripod worked out great. There is even a warning about using the suction cup on LCD screens.

I should be all finished up tonight and ready to ship to Mr. Topspeed tomorrow. Topspeed you can PM me your shipping info.

[Jim Clark]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

Wow, that was lightning fast. Glad it got there in good shape.

since I have a bit of time I'll type for a spell.

The tutorial DVD was informative and took all of the trepidation I had initially felt. It's rather odd though that the DVD is so poorly recorded. The images are among the fuzziest I've ever seen on a disc. Even when they are showing some of the screen captures it's very difficult to read the words. Given that this is a calibration disc, it just struck me as a bit odd. The information was all there and plainly spelled out though. Even a moron could do this, as I proved.

My laptop is ancient to the point that it stays in the kitchen and functions soley as a recipe book and address book. Needless to say there is no USB port on this thing. No worries, I have a third PC just laying around collecting dust so I just set it up in front of the TV's I was going to play around with. A laptop would have made the process more comfortable but you gotta do what you gotta do. I wasn't able to quickly get the wireless connection going so if there were updates to the software available, I didn't get to download them.

I also used a tripod for the sypder and found it to be a great way to do it. Even though, the suction cup still stuck to my LCD rear projection screen. I'd suggest sliding a piece of tissue paper between the cup and the screen if you're worried about possibly damaging the screen. Luckily I could detect no damage and since the other TV has a glass tube, it was a non-issue. The counter weight was difficult to adjust and I really had to yank on it to get it to slide. That made me nervous since the product wasn't mine and I really didn't want to have to buy Ed a new one. It was sturdy though and held up just fine. Finally, the room was darkened and everything more than warmed up.

So now I'll get into the actual deal here. My main display is a Sony KDF-55XS955 LCD rear projection set. It was previously calibrated using AVIA. I use the Pro Picture mode to have access to additional tweaks as well as lowering the bulb intensity and therefore extend the life of the bulb. During the first run I basically turned off all of the little tweaks and set picture mode to Standard. The results were poor especially were brightness (black level) was concerned. Spyder TV gives you some before/after images to use compare your results with the product. The first image is of a black panther and the cat was very hard to see. The setting was obviously incorrect (originally 31, changed to 17). The weakest aspect of RP LCD tv's is black level and this made everything worse.

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Brightness Avia-31 Spyder-31
Contrast* Avia- 46 Spyder-61
Color Avia-31 Spyder-33
Tint Avia-0 Spyder-0
Sharpness--41 No PC tests for sharpness and to be honest even using the test pattern on the DVD I wasn't able to notice any difference from one extreme to the other.

* Possible explanation-Prior to Spyder I was using Sony's Black Level correction setting which as I understand it really cranks up the contrast behind the scenes.

Results seem more than acceptable. Black level seems a bit improved, which it needed. Problematic has always been dark scenes where you can forget about subtle shadow effects. Images appear a bit easier to see, which is a good thing. I'm still going to tweak the pro settings and see if any further improvements can be made. I would have liked to have been able to have Spyder with me but that would have required me hanging on to it for too long.

Bottom line: I seem to have done a reasonably competent job with Avia. Given the cost of the two products Avia seems to be the best choice for the budget conscious user. The Spyder however takes all of the uncertainty out of the equation and gave me, very similar results if I'm correct on the issue of contrast. Spyder was certainly faster. I would have liked to see some PC based tests for sharpness settings but other than that, this product works as advertised. It works so well in fact that if I had a laptop from this decade, I'd buy one for myself and go around and calibrate TV's for everyone I knew for about 25 bucks a pop and pay for it quickly and in the end hopefully make enough extra moola for that new sub I've been coveting. Adding in the cost of a laptop though, probably makes it too expensive of a proposition.

I'd like to thank Ed and SpyderTV for allowing me this really cool trial run. Ed, I copied the main sheet you enclosed and I'll get your mail out tomorrow. Many thanks and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I did. Hanging out at the AR forums really pays off for me. This remains the best site on the internet thanks to folks like Ed.

Sorry for all of the typos but I've got to run now.

Regards,
jc

[edtyct]

Jim,

Thanks for the report; it'll make my life a lot easier. I look forward to putting it in context with the others, and trust that no one will be swayed by your results. You have the soul of a reviewer.

I appreciate your moving it along, but we should get the system back to you soon so that you can tweak and experiment to your heart's content. I think that you're absolutely right about black level correction; it tries to cure a disease by introducing another one. You end up paying Peter by borrowing from Paul. I don't like Sony's Standard setting myself; it's way too bright and blue. To tell you the truth, I don't like Pro either, which came as a bit of a surprise; it tends to look washed out with ED and HD pictures. I tend toward Vivid, not without some embarrassment. A Sony tech tells me that it measures closest to D65, but I don't have firsthand knowledge to that effect. I'm not surprised at all by Spyder's "warm" recommendation for your set. I also intend to run the test on a Sony rear projector, as well as a JVC flat panel.

Thanks again,
Ed

[L.J.]

just a heads up. the spyer is on it's way to topspeed via fed-x.

thanks ED

[edtyct]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

[L.J.]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

Yeah, I think there was a heads up on that a couple of weeks ago. I don't see what it would hurt to move the thread. If I wanted to find video calibration info or anything video related, that's the first place I'd look.

BTW, I'll send you my thoughts on the Spyder Monday via email. I was also wondering when the small fee should be sent over?

[edtyct]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

[westcott]

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Regards,
jc

This is one thing AVIA or DVE does not do, tell you what is closest to D65 and that alone is worth the purchase price to me. Thanks for your feedback.

[L.J.]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

Ed, looks like I'm taking you up on that. I'll get to it when life slows down for me a little. Can you PM your email address for Paypal? Thanks

[topspeed]

Got the Spyder today. Question for those involved in this little experiment:

How long can I have it and who gets it next?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm swamped right now and may not be able to play with it until this weekend. If it needs a fast turnaround, I'll try to squeeze it in.

Thanks.

BTW, I wasn't expecting it to be this small!

[edtyct]

TP,

You can have it until you're done with it. I suspect that waiting until the weekend won't put anyone out. Sir TT is the only other Californian so far, so unless he's indisposed again, a PM to him might be in order.

As for "I wasn't expecting it to be this small," there's a joke there somewhere, but I wouldn't touch it with a . . . ah, never mind.

LJ,

The email address given in the license agreement will work for me. If you don't have it anymore, I'll PM it to you eventually, but no hurry.

Ed

[topspeed]

Just finished first calibration. I think my dvd player settings are off because it is making my sat feed waaay too dark. Feardotcom just happened to be on HBO-HD when I finished and there was a sewer scene (I've never seen the flick) where I couldn't see a flippin' thing. I switched back to my normal settings and it was much better. I'm going to try to dive into the 2910's menu's tomorrow and try again. Just switching the IRE from the default 7.5 to 0 made a huge difference in black levels, so I'm going to give it a go with IRE set at 0 and see what happens. All in all tho, the Spyder is a pretty cool little gadget. I'll give a more indepth review once I'm done.

I'm sorry I'm taking so long with this fellas. My grandma has been in the hospital since Wednesday and unfortunately isn't expected to make it through the week. Family naturally comes first and I haven't had many moments of free time. I appreciate your understanding.

If you're reading this SirT, pm me your shipping address and I'll get it out to you this week.

[edtyct]

TP,

Sorry about your grandmother. Don't sweat the Spyder.

As for black level, technically video or studio black is set at 7.5 IRE, which corresponds to 16 on the digital brightness scale; peak white at the other end is at 235. The full range of black to white is actually 0-255; unlike the broadcast world, the PC world actually uses it. Some DVD players pass information below the video black standard; it's called "below black" or "blacker than black." It creates a little headroom to make sure that black doesn't clip on video material (and also helps in the calibration of displays, as DVE points out). But this discrepancy in standards can create havoc. Material shown at the PC standard in a studio or video environment will not look right, and vice versa. Samsung's DVI DVD players, for instance, mistakenly employed the 0-255 range on video material (DVI originating as a PC format), thereby crushing video black in the process.

I'm not sure why your satellite feed looks too dark; I'm assuming that your DVDs don't, or at least that inherently bright ones don't. Let's see what happens to satellite reception when the Denon has a black set at 0. Maybe the picture will even out.

Edit: By the way, TP, I know that you have a JVC DiLA display. Am I right that each of its inputs is capable of indendent calibration? If so, the DVD input would have had the benefit of the Spyder, but not satellite input. In which case, the overly dark picture on Fear.com may have been due to the broadcast or to the satellite input's user profiile. Sensible?

Ed

[topspeed]

As for black level, technically video or studio black is set at 7.5 IRE, which corresponds to 16 on the digital brightness scale; peak white at the other end is at 235. The full range of black to white is actually 0-255; unlike the broadcast world, the PC world actually uses it. Some DVD players pass information below the video black standard; it's called "below black" or "blacker than black." It creates a little headroom to make sure that black doesn't clip on video material (and also helps in the calibration of displays, as DVE points out). But this discrepancy in standards can create havoc. Material shown at the PC standard in a studio or video environment will not look right, and vice versa. Samsung's DVI DVD players, for instance, mistakenly employed the 0-255 range on video material (DVI originating as a PC format), thereby crushing video black in the process. Hmmm. I don't know what IRE is, but I'm guessing this is the "below black" that I always hear about. Based on what you are telling me, maybe it would be best to not recalibrate with IRE set to 0? In effect, would this be eliminating the player's ability to go below black?


Edit: By the way, TP, I know that you have a JVC DiLA display. Am I right that each of its inputs is capable of indendent calibration? If so, the DVD input would have had the benefit of the Spyder, but not satellite input. In which case, the overly dark picture on Fear.com may have been due to the broadcast or to the satellite input's user profiile. Sensible?
EdHuh, I hadn't thought about that. My dvd is via hdmi while everything else is component and yes, I have to change the input on the monitor. When I brought up the TV's menu to check settings while watching sat, they were all the new settings I had just done, so I don't think the setting are input specific, otherwise they would have defaulted to what I had it at before, right?

Clearly, video isn't my expertise. Just diving into the sub-menu's of the 2910 last night was mind boggling! Chroma delay, black push, gamma something...Holy Confusion, Batman!

[westcott]

Clearly, video isn't my expertise. Just diving into the sub-menu's of the 2910 last night was mind boggling! Chroma delay, black push, gamma something...Holy Confusion, Batman!

I would not be too hard on yourself. Many of us are encouraged that their are people like you who are willing to learn and actually care about audio and video quality.

I wish I had a nickel for every display\dvd player I have seen that has never been changed from the factory settings. Nice DVD player, by the way!

[edtyct]

TP,

IRE is a measure of brightness. Setting the player's brightness at 0 would allow it to pass below black information (that is, darker than 7.5 IRE, or 16 on the digital scale), which is a good thing in many situations. But whether it's a good thing with the Spyder I'm not sure. I don't know how it will process this setting as it calibrates--in other words, whether the system expects video black, which is brighter, or PC black, which would correspond to this 0 setting. It may be flexible enough to adjust accordingly. I think that it would be valuable to test at both of the 2910's settings.

At the risk of confusing you (and me) any more than need be, it is by no means a certainty that a set's HDMI and component inputs will match specs in every case. If you try the calibration via component, as well as HDMI, your results on the sat. input might be different. I'm willing to wait to find out if you're willing. I'd be interested in getting a clearer indication of what causes the picture to vary from one input to the other on your set. I haven't ruled out satellite transmission or Fear.com as the possible culprit, but HDMI vs. component and the black level setting on the 2910 could also be involved. Sorry to do this to you. Regardless of this little conundrum, I bet you were suprised at how easy the Spyder is to use.

Ed

[topspeed]

Very surprised. I'm not techie in the least. Shoot, I had to borrow the laptop and tripod from a friend! The fact that I can use it at all speaks volumes as to its user friendliness. A monkey could use this!

Switching from HDMI to component on my dvd player is a non-starter. My equipment is in a custom wall cabinet of astonishingly poor design (take a wild guess who the designer was :rolleyes: ) and that would require pulling it out, switching cables...which run through the walls...and putting it back in. Even feeding it to the AVR is a major endeavor. Sorry, but it's not worth the aggravation.

Now, where did I leave that banana...

[edtyct]

Well, the designer didn't figure on this little wrinkle; don't be too hard on him. And we can live without the information. Can you do the calibration with the "0" black-level setting to see how it looks with DVD and satellite? If you notice no difference on a suitable DVD (use one with dark scenes, like outer space, or Dark City, etc.), then the Spyder's calibration may not be video-black specific. Then maybe you could ask the satellite company, HBO, etc., to run Fear.com again for you.

[topspeed]

Ed, I found this interesting article while doing research on avsforums:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789

According to this, the IRE setting should have no affect as long as the tv has been recalibrated. This makes sense, as the Spyder should simply compensate for the different black level by adjusting the brightness and contrast. I'll do it anyway and let you know. Besides, it's fun! :)

[edtyct]

Yeah, that's a good one, and I'm as guilty as the next guy of treating IRE as if it were a universal standard like the digital brightness scale. The operative word in your post is "should," but even Wiggles leaves some wiggle room (sorry) for a TV not reacting well to a change of IRE or a digital connection being affected by it, which shouldn't happen under normal circumstances. Then there's the possibility of the satellite broadcast being miscalibrated. Let's see what happens in your case.

[topspeed]

Well, apparently we should definitely pay attention to the DVD player's settings as well. :idea:

As you know, after calibrating with the factory default setting of IRE -7.5, the picture was simply too dark. LCoS' don't possess class leading black levels as it is, and after calibration everything just blended together with very little definition along the edges. Different gradiations (sp?) of grey and black were non existent. Needless to say, I was somewhat less than pleased.

Last night I set the IRE to 0 on the 2910 and tried again...

Now we're talkin'! :thumbsup:

The color and tint were almost identical to the previous settings, however contrast and particularly brightness were dramatically altered. The end result is a visibly superior picture to what was before. I programmed the previous settings into my set allowing me to alternate between "before calibration" settings and "after" with the push of a button. Watching Discovery HD's "Return to Flight", I froze the picture at the launch of the space shuttle. The difference was dramatic. At the previous settings, the billows of smoke from the launch looked good, but it wasn't until I switched to the new settings that I realized all of the depth and definition within the smoke that I was missing. Unseen layers of grey were revealed that had been washed out before! For lack of a better term, it appeared 3D. I actually said "Wow" out loud (mind you, I'm sitting in the dark by myself :D). Color and tint weren't much different from the factory settings, although there was apparently a bit of a red push. Nothing major and certainly not offensive. It would be the difference between Red Dye #4 and Red Dye #5. The change in colors was nothing compared the difference in black and grey levels.

Because the Spyder is so easy to use, I decided to check its settings one more time with the IRE set to -7.5. It gave me almost the exact same recommendations as the previous -7.5 calibration (brightness was a few clicks different, that's all). However, the Spyder had a heck of a time setting contrast this time. It must have checked and rechecked the settings...and I'm not making this up...20 or 30 times! It took as long to set the contrast as it did to calibrate every other setting combined. It didn't do that either the first time at -7.5 or at 0.

This is a terrific product for those of us that are, er...technically challenged. The dvd instruction is short, straight forward, and very informative. There is no guess work involved with this process. Once you get the hang of it, calibrating a set takes around 20 minutes and the results far exceed the time invested. If I were to change anything, it would be to make accessing the advanced calibration settings easier. It says to open the "Tools" section, but I sure couldn't find it. It's too bad, as I do have a sharpness setting and would have liked to calibrate that as well as a few other things.

All in all, I'm extremely pleased with the results and like Jim, am eternally grateful for Ed's generosity as well as all of the other terrific members of AR. This really is a great place to learn and share information. I've learned far more here than in any magazine.

I've pm'd SirT for his address and will ship it out as soon as I can.

Thanks again, Ed.

[westcott]

Last night I set the IRE to 0 on the 2910 and tried again...

Now we're talkin'! :thumbsup:



Thanks again, Ed.

Thanks for the update and I am glad you got the 2910 dialed in, as well.

[edtyct]

TP,

My pleasure. I'm glad that the 0 IRE setting worked out, but I must admit to being stumped about why it cured your particular ill. If anyone has any ideas, let'em rip. The Spyder's trouble reading the 7.5 IRE signal might be telling. Somehow it seemed to interpret it, incorrectly, as giving a false video black, impelling it to set the brightness, and possibly the contrast, too low. But this is pure speculation on my part. When I get all of the data back, and run the test myself on a variety of displays, I'll see if this anomaly turns up elsewhere. It might be worth asking Datacolor about what might be causing it. Unfortunately, I don't think that we have any more LCoS sets on the docket for comparison on that variable, but I know a Sony dealer who might let me try the Spyder on one. But JVCs and Sonys are different animals. We'll see. But I'm thrilled that your results were so dramatic at 0 IRE, and gratified that you guys are having fun.

Ed

[westcott]

TP,

My pleasure. I'm glad that the 0 IRE setting worked out, but I must admit to being stumped about why it cured your particular ill. If anyone has any ideas, let'em rip. The Spyder's trouble reading the 7.5 IRE signal might be telling. Somehow it seemed to interpret it, incorrectly, as giving a false video black, impelling it to set the brightness, and possibly the contrast, too low. But this is pure speculation on my part. When I get all of the data back, and run the test myself on a variety of displays, I'll see if this anomaly turns up elsewhere. It might be worth asking Datacolor about what might be causing it. Unfortunately, I don't think that we have any more LCoS sets on the docket for comparison on that variable, but I know a Sony dealer who might let me try the Spyder on one. But JVCs and Sonys are different animals. We'll see. But I'm thrilled that your results were so dramatic at 0 IRE, and gratified that you guys are having fun.

Ed

I have a possible reason but I would have to know if you are using HDMI or DVI on the display and the player. I assume HDMI but if not, the reason could be that DVI is an 8 bit RGB signal, while HDMI can be 8 bit RGB, or 8 bit, 10 bit, or 12 bit YCbCr. If you have a DVI source and DVI display, there will be no problem. If you have a DVI source and an HDMI display, again, no problem. If however, you have an HDMI source and a DVI display, the below-black video information may be lost in the translation. There is a bug in the Silicon Image HDMI transmitter that pops up when converting YCbCr to RGB.

[topspeed]

Ed,
At 7.5, the Spyder had the brightness really, really low and the contrast really, really high. It was an odd combination that created a very poor picture.

Westcott,
I'm using HDMI directly from the 2910 to the JVC. Denon uses Faroudja chips on this model, if that matters.

Just out of curiosity, if I'm using a HDMI connection, does that mean the vid processing is being done by the monitor instead of the player (i.e. like a digital connection for audio)? Or is it that the scaling is being done by the monitor. I have a basic idea, but I'm not crystal clear on the difference between a video processor and a scaler.

[westcott]

Ed,
At 7.5, the Spyder had the brightness really, really low and the contrast really, really high. It was an odd combination that created a very poor picture.

Westcott,
I'm using HDMI directly from the 2910 to the JVC. Denon uses Faroudja chips on this model, if that matters.

Just out of curiosity, if I'm using a HDMI connection, does that mean the vid processing is being done by the monitor instead of the player (i.e. like a digital connection for audio)? Or is it that the scaling is being done by the monitor. I have a basic idea, but I'm not crystal clear on the difference between a video processor and a scaler.

I apologize. I thought you had the 2900. The only other thing that I did not here you discuss was the nomenclature found in your manual for IRE settings\black levels via HDMI. Studio RGB levels are the correct setting and allow for below black and above white information. I believe they offer the choice of Studio (normal) or PC (enhanced) RGB levels.This is easy to test for with a gray ramp such as the one found on Avia Pro or Digital Video Essentials.

I do not know how the Spyder handles below black information when calibrating but the below black and above white information found in Studio RGB levels are important in digital displays and can reduce contouring artifacts associated with some of them.

I like to use the word video processor because it covers a whole gammut of things that a video processor does to a signal. Video processors can be found in all types of video components and all of them are responsible for part or all of the signal arriving to the display.

Which device is doing what is a long topic but a very general answer to your question is that the source device does quite a bit, the display device may or may not do much, if any video processing, depending on what signal is sent from the source. If the display receives a native resolution that is supported, the display may not do much.

The best advice I could give you is to read through the articles I have linked to to get a better feel for what a some of the video processors are tasked with and what devices they are found in like scalers, DVD players, display devices, and dedicated video processors\scalers.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/dvd-benchmark-introduction-9-2000.html

Make sure you go through the 6 or 7 articles in the index and if you want more, scan through the feature articles on the website.

Hope this helps.:)

[edtyct]

TP,

If you're using HDMI from the DVD player, it's doing the scaling and deinterlacing, unless you've chosen, and the Denon allows, 480i to be sent digitally. Whatever else the JVC itself does to the Denon's signal is proprietary, possibly best considered an intrusion--not to say that such intrusions aren't everyday occurrences. Some of them are flaws, and some of them are voluntary "enhancements."

Hi Wescott,

You should be getting your hands on the Spyder within a couple of weeks, I would think. On the matter you raised before Speedy (gotta love it) posted again, 12 bit is a rare bird at this point; most signals come at us in 8 bit clips and occasionally 10 bits from a DVD player. However, there's no guarantee that a DVD player that employs 10-bit processing will meet a display that always has 10 bits available for its own processing, even if it claims as much. Under the conditions that you mention, what you might see on certain displays (large ones, anyway) is some banding, some false contours, and possibly grainy color-depth artifacts, but not a change in black level per se. That said, I may not understand what the Silicon Image bug is. I assume that Secrets ratted it out. Do you have details?

Ed

[westcott]

TP,

If you're using HDMI from the DVD player, it's doing the scaling and deinterlacing, unless you've chosen, and the Denon allows, 480i to be sent digitally. Whatever else the JVC itself does to the Denon's signal is proprietary, possibly best considered an intrusion--not to say that such intrusions aren't everyday occurrences. Some of them are flaws, and some of them are voluntary "enhancements."

Hi Wescott,

You should be getting your hands on the Spyder within a couple of weeks, I would think. On the matter you raised before Speedy (gotta love it) posted again, 12 bit is a rare bird at this point; most signals come at us in 8 bit clips and occasionally 10 bits from a DVD player. However, there's no guarantee that a DVD player that employs 10-bit processing will meet a display that always has 10 bits available for its own processing, even if it claims as much. Under the conditions that you mention, what you might see on certain displays (large ones, anyway) is some banding, some false contours, and possibly grainy color-depth artifacts, but not a change in black level per se. That said, I may not understand what the Silicon Image bug is. I assume that Secrets ratted it out. Do you have details?

Ed

There is a lot of good information that is scattered througout the shootout that is very useful but hard to find because it usually pertains to a certain test or video processor that is undergoing evaluation. I found the Silicon Image problem under the 2900 review, which is what I thought he had, at first.The SI problem only seems to occur when going from HDMI source to a DVI display.


Since he has the 2910, the information I provided on bit depth was somewhat of a red herring.

I bring up the Studio RGB idea because it was the only other thing I could think of that could affect the IRE levels.

I can not wait to see what can be done with the Spyder and may even see if I can get it to work on my front projector too.

[edtyct]

Yeah, it's a bit of a mystery. The PC vs. Studio numerical brightness scales shouldn't interfere with IRE, which pertains only to analog, but strange and wondrous complications occur inside a digital TV set. Datacolor sent me a press release, which is buried somewhere in my computer. It contained info about their more elaborate colorimeter earmarked for projection systems. I posted a link to it in answer to someone's question on that point in this thread--GMichael maybe. You might be able to find it. I don't think you'll have much luck with this version, although I do recall people scrambling to adapt it when it first emerged. Keep me posted.

Ed

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The spydar has arrived. Ed, how long do I get to have it. I will not be able to do anything until the weekend. When, and how do we pay you ole chap?

[edtyct]

Hi Sir TT,

Long time no speak. I think we've been letting people's schedules dictate. Most everyone so far has had to wait until the weekend. We're not in any particular rush. Your situation will be especially significant, since you're starting from a professional calibration. If you have a second TV that you want to include, go for it. The $14.00 payment can be a check to the Massachusetts address or a Paypal payment to the Comcast email address listed on the note that explains how to register the software. That reminds me; I have to thank Jim Clark, and he overpaid.

Ed

[Jim Clark]

If I did, it wasn't by much. Consider it interest since I was late in mailing it off in the first place. Glad it got there though.

Thanks again,
jc

[westcott]

I had not received any email or packages so I thought I would pull this back to the top to see where we are at.

Hope everyone had a nice Passover\Easter holiday!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey all,
After dealing with a rollout deadline that was moved up one month, and a tragic death in my family, I have finally finished with the spydar.

Just a quick word on how I worked with it. It was absolutely no help on my reference system, as it was calibrated using a much more sophisticated measuring device than the spydar is. So I tried it on my 55" analog television in what I call studio A, my old bedroom that is being converted to house a smaller hometheater. It has two component video inputs with each input having the ability to be independently calibrated. I used two identical DVD players hooked to these inputs.

I calibrated one input using video essentials, the other using the spydar. Before making any calibrations I adjusted the convergence. I will share my results when I finish writing them up.

Who is next in line? Thanks for your patience, especially you Ed.

[westcott]

Thought I would drag this to the top.

[edtyct]

Thanks, westcott. Hey, Sir TT, old wescott's next in line. I'll leave it to this thread for you guys to arrange the transfer. If I don't read anything here for a while, I'll get in touch with you guys.

[topspeed]

Hey Ed,

Just curious, do bulbs in LCoS sets slowly dim or do they just go. Mine went in two stages: First it was noticeably dimmer and a day later it "popped" and went bye-bye altogether. The reason I'm asking is that the calibration was done just a week or two before the bulb blew and now I'm wondering if my old settings are correct with the new bulb? Do you know how these things burn? Is it gradual or wham-bam-thank-you-'mam?

[edtyct]

They slowly drop in brightness over time, something that the LEDs that I mentioned in the other neighborhood don't do during their 20,000 hrs. of life. If you saw a definite drop in brightness before yours popped, that was probably a bad sign. Usually the decline is so gradual that you don't notice it. You might be able to turn the brightness and contrast down a bit with the new bulb, but the old settings might work out okay. AVIA or DVE might come in handy for a quick look.

[topspeed]

Thanks, that's what I thought. This thing is as bright as the sun with the previous settings. I'll recalibrate.

[westcott]

Hey Ed,

Just curious, do bulbs in LCoS sets slowly dim or do they just go. Mine went in two stages: First it was noticeably dimmer and a day later it "popped" and went bye-bye altogether. The reason I'm asking is that the calibration was done just a week or two before the bulb blew and now I'm wondering if my old settings are correct with the new bulb? Do you know how these things burn? Is it gradual or wham-bam-thank-you-'mam?

The lamp in my projector did the same exact thing. It started getting noticeably dimmer, so I recalibrated and turned it on the high setting.

The lamp popped about two weeks later at only 1000+ hours. Not good.

I do believe that my inability to tell if the projector is in standby or off contributed to its early failure. The projector would come on unexpectedly and I would have to shut the unit down again. This can be very hard on a lamp filament and where most wear and tear occurs.

I have taken more care to make sure the projector is off now and we will see what happens.

How is it coming TT?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The lamp in my projector did the same exact thing. It started getting noticeably dimmer, so I recalibrated and turned it on the high setting.

The lamp popped about two weeks later at only 1000+ hours. Not good.

I do believe that my inability to tell if the projector is in standby or off contributed to its early failure. The projector would come on unexpectedly and I would have to shut the unit down again. This can be very hard on a lamp filament and where most wear and tear occurs.

I have taken more care to make sure the projector is off now and we will see what happens.

How is it coming TT?

Westcott,
PM me your address do I can forward the spydar to you. I have calibrated just about everything in sight, so its time to shoot it towards you.

[topspeed]

Ummm...What happened to the Spyder?

[westcott]

Ummm...What happened to the Spyder?

I have not pressed TT for it but I have sent him my mailing address via a PM.

[kexodusc]

I have not pressed TT for it but I have sent him my mailing address via a PM.

Wholly Crap!!! How did I miss this thread? I must have been in Florida on Vacation that week. Damn.

That ed is some kind of member....kudos to him.

[edtyct]

Kexo,

You certainly must have been gone that week. I called you out in the first post, along with a bunch of other unusual suspects, to see what you thought of the idea. Funny you should say "that ed." My in-laws used to refer to me that way before I joined the family. Now it's become something of a running joke.

Ed

By the way, this thing has taken on such a life of its own that I didn't think to find out whether Wescott had received the Spyder yet. Evidently not. Sir TT, watch out. I think Speedy's after you.

[kexodusc]

Well Ed, I have to give you props...that was awefully generous of you. I haven't read the whole thread, but if it's still in one piece after everyone gets a crack at it, or it makes a tour of Canada, lemme know...

Dunno how it'll work with all them postage stamps stuck to it...

[edtyct]

I was definitely thinking about a run to Canada, but, no offense, the mail service between our two countries ain't that great. If you think we can work it out, give me a holler.

[kexodusc]

I was definitely thinking about a run to Canada, but, no offense, the mail service between our two countries ain't that great. If you think we can work it out, give me a holler.
LOL...tell me about it...
It all depends how you ship it, how big it is, how much it weighs, etc....There are options. Bouncing back and forth across the 49th parallel with families on both sides, well, you learn a few things...

[topspeed]

Sir TT, watch out. I think Speedy's after you.

I inadvertently left my anchoring bolt for my tripod attached to the Spyder when I shipped it. Tman thankfully found it, but I kinda would like it back :rolleyes:.

[edtyct]

I had visions of you chasing SirTT down the street, sticks in hand, waiting to beat him silly like one of Sandy Nelson's tom toms. Wrong again. Sorry, SirTT, no offense.

[topspeed]

I had visions of you chasing SirTT down the street, sticks in hand, waiting to beat him silly like one of Sandy Nelson's tom toms. Wrong again. Sorry, SirTT, no offense.
No way, Ed. Sandy probably played with 7A's, Sir T deserves something with some meat to it, like this Vater 3S.

http://www.vater.com/newproducts/imagelarge/3s.jpg

[edtyct]

The 3Ss are good. It's amazing how much abuse Terrence is willing to take without retaliating. Is he mobilizing, or does he actually have a life?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The 3Ss are good. It's amazing how much abuse Terrence is willing to take without retaliating. Is he mobilizing, or does he actually have a life?

I am too tired and jet lagged to respond adequately to all of this abuse. However, when I get home and ship off speedy's piece, and Westcott the spydar and get me some rest, beware of the smart bombs aimed at all of you guys houses :devil: LOL

There was such a huge lag in response after I finished with the Spydar that I didn't get the chance to ship it off before I got on the road again. ABC has me playing their version of the great race at this moment.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey all,
After dealing with a rollout deadline that was moved up one month, and a tragic death in my family, I have finally finished with the spydar.

Just a quick word on how I worked with it. It was absolutely no help on my reference system, as it was calibrated using a much more sophisticated measuring device than the spydar is. So I tried it on my 55" analog television in what I call studio A, my old bedroom that is being converted to house a smaller hometheater. It has two component video inputs with each input having the ability to be independently calibrated. I used two identical DVD players hooked to these inputs.

I calibrated one input using video essentials, the other using the spydar. Before making any calibrations I adjusted the convergence. I will share my results when I finish writing them up.

Who is next in line? Thanks for your patience, especially you Ed.

I almost forgot to post my results. As I stated above I first adjusted the convergence using the set internal convergence whick is a 64 point system. I made sure I left the television on for at least 8 hours before doing anything.. I calibrate input A with video essentials, and input B with the spydar. I used two of the same model DVD player to accomplish this, and do a playback comparison.

The spydar was relatively easy to use, and I had no problem installing the software on my laptop which is loaded full of audio and video test signals. The suction cups stuck to my television screen just fine, and stayed in place throughout the entire calibration process.

The calibration process itself did have some glitches with the spydar giving me one set of values on contrast, and then a completely different set when I repeated the task. Eventually I got everything lined up, and everything looked quite good.

I then calibrated the set with video essentials which I have used so many times, that it is just nothing.

Using the split screen, two copies of The Incredibles, and a syncmaster by grass valley to line up both feeds to the television, the difference between the two calibrations was almost minimal. I thought the black levels of the video essentials calibration to be a little more black. However I thought the colors look just a bit more vivid but not pushed with the spydar side. Both did exceptionally well at making the television look its best.

My conclusion would be the spyday doesn't make much economic sense to me. If I can go out and purchase a DVD for $20 that can do the same job as a $249 calibrating machine, then the machine doesn't make much sense. However, the equipment geek in me will probably buy the spydar pro model that is currently out because I like using equipment to calibrate things, as opposed to the DVD.

[Smokey]

My conclusion would be the spyday doesn't make much economic sense to me. If I can go out and purchase a DVD for $20 that can do the same job as a $249 calibrating machine, then the machine doesn't make much sense.

If calibration is only limited to On-Screen adjustments (Cont, Color, etc..), then it is not really hard to zero in adjustments. And $20 DVD can probably do as good job as a $249 calibrating machine. Even “eyeing” it (without calibrations disc) can bring on screen adjustments into ball park :)

[L.J.]

Using the split screen, two copies of The Incredibles, and a syncmaster by grass valley to line up both feeds to the television, the difference between the two calibrations was almost minimal. I thought the black levels of the video essentials calibration to be a little more black. However I thought the colors look just a bit more vivid but not pushed with the spydar side. Both did exceptionally well at making the television look its best.

My conclusion would be the spyday doesn't make much economic sense to me. If I can go out and purchase a DVD for $20 that can do the same job as a $249 calibrating machine, then the machine doesn't make much sense. However, the equipment geek in me will probably buy the spydar pro model that is currently out because I like using equipment to calibrate things, as opposed to the DVD.

This was the same conclusion I came up with. I was able to toggle back and forth between my DVE calibration and Spyder cal. and although I have to give the Spyder a huge plus for ease of use, I felt you can get very close with a cal. disc and some patience.

[edtyct]

Excellent report all right. But Sir TT constitutes a small, and rather nonrepresentative, sample. One experiment that I'd like to see done is to have a group of people, with a little bit of background training, brought into a room and asked individually to calibrate a display as well as possible using only the user controls. Each such calibration would then be tested against a calibration performed with a test disk. I'm not so confident that the man on the street's blind results (or almost anyone's for that matter), even when informed by a modicum of interest in such things, would achieve what can be done with a test disk. Now, if you extend the sample to the larger population of people who might want to maximize performance (without breaking the bank) but feel uncomfortable with an arcane test disk, then you can see why the Spyder might have some value, assuming that it works as advertised. The Spyder can serve as a great tool for consciousness raising, not necessarily something that the stalwarts from a site like this one need, but certainly of benefit outside the realm of the enthusiast, and not necessarily misplaced with enthusiasts either.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Westcott,
The spydar is coming your way. My assistant sent it USPS ground, however I am not sure when it will arrive. I'll have to get more info when I get back to my home station.

[topspeed]

Westcott, pm me your address. I've got a piece of the Spyder that was sent to me accidentally. I'll ship it out ASAP.

[kexodusc]

Sir T's great analysis notwithstanding, I'm still drooling over the prospect of giving this thing a whirl...Curiosity is getting the best of me.

[edtyct]

Since Sir TT brought up the pro-grade Spyder, I thought I'd post information that Charle-John Cafiero of Datacolor just sent me:

SpyderTV PRO<SUP style="FONT-SIZE: 8px">TM</SUP> - professional installers' only all-in-one hardware/software tool designed to calibrate color in home theater displays, computer monitors and front projectors quickly with exceptional accuracy and ease at a breakthrough price.
For more information on the all-new SpyderTV PRO, click here for PDF news release (http://www.icebase.com/go.shtml?20060524053833199390&m3831&http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/InfoCom_2006/_Press/InfoCom_SPTV_PRO.pdf). http://www.datacolor.com/emails/images/stv.jpg (http://www.icebase.com/go.shtml?20060524053833199390&m3831&http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/InfoCom_2006/)
Datacolor ISFC3 Toolkit<SUP style="FONT-SIZE: 8px">TM</SUP> - the latest product for high-end videophiles, custom design specialists and manufacturers that's thoroughly integrated with the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) Certified Calibration Controls (C3) functionality. Leading manufacturers like Pioneer embrace this exceptional proprietary tool to facilitate ISF display calibration; Datacolor ISFC3 Toolkit is now, embedded into the Pioneer Elite<SUP style="FONT-SIZE: 8px">TM</SUP> PureVision plasma televisions.
For more information on Datacolor ISFC3 Toolkit, click here for PDF news release (http://www.icebase.com/go.shtml?20060524053833199390&m3831&http://www.datacolor.com/resources/Tradeshows/InfoCom_2006/_Press/InfoCom_DC_ISFC3_Toolkit_Pioneer.pdf).

[edtyct]

I have to hoist this baby back up to find out whether old Westcott is still with us. We have a couple more new takers, including Kexo in Canada, to accommodate. And I don't know whether the early enlisters who have yet to get their hands on the Spyder are still around. Any and all updates much appreciated.

[topspeed]

I e-mailed Westcott but got no response. Has Sir T even sent it out yet? If not, let's send it to Kex.

[edtyct]

If Sir T's assistant was prepared to send it out a month ago, it probably shipped by now. But we should try to get a confirmation from him. If he hasn't, and Westcott went AWOL, we should get on with it. Without checking, I believe that someone from N. or S. Dakota and someone from Maryland was ahead of Kex, but they may no longer be with us either.

[hmmmm]

If Sir T's assistant was prepared to send it out a month ago, it probably shipped by now. But we should try to get a confirmation from him. If he hasn't, and Westcott went AWOL, we should get on with it. Without checking, I believe that someone from N. or S. Dakota and someone from Maryland was ahead of Kex, but they may no longer be with us either.

I'm still in. Just let me know when.

[kexodusc]

oh, we gotta let Hmmm have it first...he's good people...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I sent it out a while ago. I have decided that the gearhead in me wants that Datacolor pro model. I think I'll order it next week.

[edtyct]

Right, Hmmmm, was with us at the start and should get his chance, assuming that old Westcott hasn't flaked out on us. I can't imagine that he did, but I can imagine that the Spyder is languishing outside his house while he's in Tijuana having a good time.

[kexodusc]

Right, Hmmmm, was with us at the start and should get his chance, assuming that old Westcott hasn't flaked out on us. I can't imagine that he did, but I can imagine that the Spyder is languishing outside his house while he's in Tijuana having a good time.

Either that or some UPS gorilla has a very cool new toy.:skep:

[hmmmm]

oh, we gotta let Hmmm have it first...he's good people...

Thanks Kex, I guess I've fooled another one:)
I'm anxious to put this to the test on a flat screen used to view fine art (and not so fine also).

[robotec]

How do I get on this list? I'm interested in using this to calibrate my Phillips HDTV.
Thanks for your suggestion regarding a DVD player. I went with the OPPO DVD player.

[edtyct]

Hey, that's great. If the Oppo turns out to be as reliable as it is well appointed--and there's no reason to think that it won't be--it should get you to the promised land (HD), even though, like Moses, it isn't destined to see it.

As for getting on this list, you just did---that is, assuming that old Westcott wakes up and brings the damned thing into the house so that we can get on with it. What happened to him?

[westcott]

Hello Everyone!!

Sorry I have not visited with any of you in a while. This is a busy time of year for me so I have been somewhat distracted. I have completed the calibration of both of my CRT TVs and now I am ready to ship it to whoever is next. Just give me an address.

I would have been finished sooner but I had trouble getting my hands on a laptop. I never really missed the one I had until situations like this come up.

[edtyct]

Yay, Westcott. We have Kexodusc in Canada, hmmm, in Maryland (I think), and robotec in parts unknown. Hmmm is technically next in line, but maybe we should devise a strategy to even out shipping costs. Where are you robotec?

[robotec]

Ed,

I sent you an email with my info. Please let me know if you need anything else.

[edtyct]

Robotec,

Sorry that I didn't reply. I don't need anything else from you. What we do need, however, is to determine where Westcott in Texas should send the Spyder next--to you in the middle of the country, hmmm on the east coast, or kexo in Canada. We don't want Westcott, or anyone else, to pay exorbitant costs for a long shipment. You would seem to make the most sense directly after Texas, followed either by hmmm or by kexo before going back to me. Which is the lesser evil? Am I overanalyzing?

[edtyct]

Okay, I'll take matters into my own hands. I've PM'd PDK who was in on this earlier on, but may have slipped away. Kexo, where in Canada are you? If you're in the middle, maybe we should go straight up from Westcott through the Midwest to you and then from you to hmmm. If you're closer to the east coast, however, I'd be in favor of the ever-patient hmmm going next, then you, and then the Midwest. But I'm open to suggestions.

I'm checking out for a while to let a thunderstorm pass. Last time I got nailed. Fool me once . . .

[robotec]

Sounds good to me. I'll wait to see what you guys come up with.

[edtyct]

Since I may be out of contact for the next couple of weeks, I've emailed Kexo to decide where the Spyder should go next, or at least to make a case for it, based on where he is in Canada (true to form, I forgot). I hope you guys can work it out.. I'll try to check back next week.

On another note, the Perfect Vision has a review of the Spyder in the latest issue. The upshot seems to be that it can't replace a good set of videophile eyes. I'll read it by the end of the day and comment.

[kexodusc]

I'm on the Atlantic coast, New Brunswick...if there's still some people in the US between wherever the Spyder is now and New Brunswick (on top of Maine) then let's move it along accordingly...
If Hmmm is indeed in Maryland, that would seem to make sense...there's got to be some Pennsylvania, New York, or New England stops along the way, I'd think....

Robotec, where abouts are you located at? I forget

[edtyct]

In this case, I'd say we go from Westcott to robotec in the Midwest to hmmm in Maryland to Kexo in New Brunswick and last to me in Massachusetts. Robotec, will you email Westcott with your address?

[edtyct]

Barry Willis of TPV is slightly dismissive of the Spyder, which he deployed with an older model Panasonic ED plasma. His results--a pink tint to his whites, exaggerated color, and a questionable shift in color temperature from Normal to Warm--left him with the conclusion that this colorimeter would not necessarily represent the last step in a videophile's calibration. His subsequent adjustment of the Spyder's picture by eye was "very close" to the picture that preceded it. He suggests that the Spyder might be suited more for newbies, those who don't want to take the time to calibrate otherwise, or those who want to get a display quickly out of torch mode before they get around to a more rigorous calibration.

Points well taken. But keep in mind, as Willis does himself, that he started with a display that already looked good and that he is far from inexperienced in video. A display in worse condition, in the hands of someone less able, may well benefit more than a Panasonic plasma in Willis' possession. Nor is his claim of being able to get the color back to its superior pre-Spyder condition an endorsement of the idea that calibration by eye is likely to be as good as the Spyder's or any other system's. The Spyder's changes to his display were well mapped, and not terribly severe, and his well-trained eye did not have to remember for long what the TV's previous state had been.

Our Spyder's journey across the continent should have a cross-section of video nuts and nuts of a more common persuasion. Though a lot of the reports from users may depend on impressionistic and subjective evidence rather than anything quantifiable, the data will probably be the largest ever assembled about the Spyder. Whatever ultimately happens with it, it will certainly generate some interesting information.

[robotec]

Just letting you guys know, I havent received it yet. I figure the holiday has something to do with it.

[robotec]

I received the Spyder today. Thanks Wescott. However, the suction cup clip-on attachment was not in the bag. It may have been left on someone's tripod. I'm going to proceed anyway. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[topspeed]

I've got it. Been waiting to find out what to do with it. Unfortunately, I'll be gone for a week for business. If you still have it next week, which I find doubtful, let me know your address and I'll mail it. Otherwise, whoever is next needs to PM their address and I'll be happy to send it off.

[robotec]

I'm going to ship it out tomorrow. Whoever is next, just PM me your information.

[westcott]

I received the Spyder today. Thanks Wescott. However, the suction cup clip-on attachment was not in the bag. It may have been left on someone's tripod. I'm going to proceed anyway. I'll let you know how it turns out.

I have torn my house apart and can not find the piece in question. I can not imagine it was not with the shipment. Please look among the peanuts again. It may have been placed in the box. If not, I will replace it. I used a tripod.

[edtyct]

I have torn my house apart and can not find the piece in question. I can not imagine it was not with the shipment. Please look among the peanuts again. It may have been placed in the box. If not, I will replace it. I used a tripod.

Topspeed has it. He'll send it wherever it needs to go.

[edtyct]

What follows is my response to a note from Charle-John Cafiero asking how this project was going and whether I'd be interested in a review sample of the far more elaborate Spyder TV Pro calibration system about which I posted somewhere within this enormous thread:

Hi Charle,

The Spyder TV unit that I placed in circulation for data around the country and Canada has proven to be wildly popular, far outstripping my expectations, and timetable. To refresh your memory, the various users--all Audio Review members participating on the home-theater board--were given the opportunity to calibrate their TVs with the Spyder in return for hard data comparing the Spyder's results with their previous setups, as well as their impressions about the procedure and the results. All of this material will end up with me when the last person finally ships the Spyder back to me. We seem to be getting close to the end. Then it will take me some time to organize and tabulate the data, but I can probably send you preliminary examples of user reaction without too long a wait.

Yes, the Pro version is very intriguing, and it has garnered interest in my neck of the woods. If I were to get a review sample, I'd want to do something similar to what I did with the less elaborate Spyder. But this time I would enlist only a select few users--broadcast professionals and/or more skilled videophiles with higher-end equipment. Let me get back to you about it.

Best,
Ed

[robotec]

I'll be sending this out to Hmmm. later today. I ended up using the unit on my basement TV 3 times. The 1st time I used it, left the contrast set way too high. I think this was due to operator error. The next 2 times brought it down to 34. Overall, my inital settings were way off. The picture looks a lot better. However, I am not sure if I would've gotten similar results using AVIA or V/E. But it was fun using the unit and the software.

[edtyct]

Just a reminder: I hope that everyone has taken a moment to fill out one of the forms that I included in the box with the Spyder. Datacolor is eager to see what all of you thought of it. If the forms in the box have run out, please PM me. I can arrange to send one to those in need by email attachment.

[hmmmm]

Well, I used the Spyder on an 42" LCD and a 56" DLP last night. One more 47" CRT tonight. I'm hoping to send this out on Thursday, so whoever's next, go ahead and send me your address.
Thanks!

[hmmmm]

Oh, whoever gets this next, just remember the suction cup thingie is still missing.

[kexodusc]

Hey, it could be my turn for this thing?
Let's give it a day or so for someone else to put in a claim before it leaves the country to come up my way....

[edtyct]

Kexo,

Let's get it to you now. That's how we planned it. I think you'll be wrapping it up.

Ed

[edtyct]

Kexo and hmmm,

Did you guys hook up yet? If so, please update thread. We're getting close to the end. By the way, Topspeed, who has the missing suction cup, recently said that he was sending it along to me. If I get it, and you need it, let me know. Otherwise you'll have to find another way to get the colorimeter to make contact with the screen. Apparently, hmmm did.

Ed

[kexodusc]

I touched base with Hmmm awhile back...I know he had a busy schedule and I trust is making every effort to pass it along - and I'm in no super rush if you aren't Ed. I won't need it for very long.

[westcott]

Kexo and hmmm,

Did you guys hook up yet? If so, please update thread. We're getting close to the end. By the way, Topspeed, who has the missing suction cup, recently said that he was sending it along to me. If I get it, and you need it, let me know. Otherwise you'll have to find another way to get the colorimeter to make contact with the screen. Apparently, hmmm did.

Ed


I have pulled my hair out for the last couple of weeks trying to find the damn thing.

Does this mean I am officially off the hook for the suction cup holder?

[kexodusc]

Westcott, there was a post in this thread a few weeks back from Topspeed explaining he had it...#143

[edtyct]

Westcott,

Topspeed owned up, so I guess you've been absolved. You can put away the self-flagellation kit and start living again.

Kex,

I'm not in a huge rush, but Datacolor is eager to see how the Spyder Jr. fared in the field (and ericl has been asking when he can get his hands on some results). Datacolor has also sent me the Pro version of the Spyder for review, and I don't want to be too far behind in my obligations.

Ed

[kexodusc]

Ed,
Makes sense..I'll fire him off a PM later today if he doesn't catch this thread first - I believe he told me it was being shipped early this week, so it could very well be en route.

[westcott]

I went back and re read some of this thread and realized I really missed a lot when my hard drive caved in.

It will be interesting to read more on the Pro version from a hands on stand point.

I have one recommendation to the mfg. How about a downloadable configuration for your display. Something similar to what Logitech does with its Harmony remote. I could see an interface that could really help you dig deeper into calibration for gamma correction and other settings that are typically left to professional ISF techs for a display with specifics for your particular display. Even known issues with downloadable suggestions to rectify the problems.

Just an idea!

[edtyct]

Your idea brings to a head the limitations in personal calibration devices. Mfgrs have an understandably proprietary position on "unauthorized" use of service controls. They have to protect the initiative of their technicians in the field. Furthermore, untrained amateurs usually do more harm than good to their TVs when they try to access the arcane settings, wasting the valuable time of the technicians who have to rescue them. You can buy a service menu if you want, but the number of people who do so is small, since the codes are like gibberish to the uninitiated.

But Datacolor ColorFacts Pro has the ISFC3 Toolkit that does essentially what you're asking, allowing a calibrator to go directly into ISF-type parameters easily and efficiently. So far as I know only Pioneer offers this type of interface (Brillian offers ISF calibration of its LCoS TVs out of the box).

Datacolor has two "pro" products: the Spyder TV Pro, which targets "installers, system integrators, and IT Pros," and the ColorFacts Professional, which is the domain of "professional calibrators." To tell you the truth, I mixed up the two in my head, expecting Datacolor to send me the latter, which is an elaborate concatenation of measuring devices, capable of integrating with other serious test instruments, all in the service of creating data leaving no stone unturned and keeping complete records via software. The Spyder Pro that I just received days ago outdoes the Spyder that launched this thread; it offers more software control and greyscale calibration capability (when accessible w/o going into buried controls), though it is based on more or less the same principles.

I can't imagine that you will ever find an enthusiast's product that will officially cross the no man's land between the mfgr and enduser that authorized, licensed service technicians occupy. As it stands, the software and colorimeters available now for interested consumers are intended to cover the fundamental flaws in consumer displays out of the box in a way that purports to circumvent human error. The question is whether they can outperform the eye's ability to interpret test screens without introducing their own shortcomings.

I should also mention that the Spyder Pro now in my possession, unlike the Jr. Spyder, works with front projection.

[westcott]

I will start by assuming that you are right and the average person is too stupid to approach advanced calibration an that the display mfgs do not like the idea either.

There is still a lot of data that could be provided to the user via the internet on their specific display to make the process a lot easier and component specific. You could download the dvd settings for your particular dvd and what works best and why, you could do the same for the display. I see the possibilites as almost endless. A database like this would be a very valuable resource. Even if it just told you how many levels of adjustment your display has for each picture setting so you do not have to count them and keep track.

[edtyct]

I wouldn't say "too stupid," just untrained. It's a Pandora's box. The right instruments are expensive and require background sufficient to handle innumerable contingencies. How does a person verify the accuracy of this information, the exactitude of any measurements, and the ability of the display device to calibrate correctly? The community formed by technicians and mfgrs can mitigate difficulties, but anyone who's ever worked with authorized service personnel can tell you that even unlimited access to privileged information doesn't guarantee success.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade; I just want to think out loud about what you're proposing. I see your point about the endless possibilities for component-specific data, but the complications arising from the interactions between, say, DVD players and TVs might be hard to pin down. Assuming, however, that some degree of precision were possible, it would have no guarantee that anyone would, or should, be satisfied with any particular result. It also assumes a lack of variation in specific products out of the box. Frankly, I don't know the extent to which the parameters in video devices stray from each other off the assembly line or how much they drift over time.

Also, who's going to provide this data (assuming that it's possible, Datacolor certainly won't, because it would eliminate any need for its product)? The amount of work that would go into providing such databases might be staggering, anyway. Part of the Spyder's appeal is supposed to be its ease of use, obviating any extra time-consuming steps, maybe even consulting a database. Even after consulting it, you may well want to run a calibration.

Well, there's a little devil's advocate for you.

[GMichael]

I should also mention that the Spyder Pro now in my possession, unlike the Jr. Spyder, works with front projection.

I've been watching for just this statement. How much, and can an average Joe like me make use of it?

[edtyct]

It would be right up your alley. If the Sanyo provides user controls for RGB gain and bias, you can even adjust the greyscale with it. What you need is a DVD player and a laptop or nearby desktop computer with Windows 2000/XP, USB port, at least 800 mhz, 256 MB Ram, 100 MB free drive space, and a video card capable of 1024x768 resolution and 24 bpp color (16.7 million colors). The cost is $600 to $700. Go to the Datacolor website and look for the Spyder TV Pro.

[GMichael]

It would be right up your alley. If the Sanyo provides user controls for RGB gain and bias, you can even adjust the greyscale with it. What you need is a DVD player and a laptop or nearby desktop computer with Windows 2000/XP, USB port, at least 800 mhz, 256 MB Ram, 100 MB free drive space, and a video card capable of 1024x768 resolution and 24 bpp color (16.7 million colors). The cost is $600 to $700. Go to the Datacolor website and look for the Spyder TV Pro.

Thanks Ed,

I knew I was lurking on the thread for a good reason.

[hmmmm]

I touched base with Hmmm awhile back...I know he had a busy schedule and I trust is making every effort to pass it along - and I'm in no super rush if you aren't Ed. I won't need it for very long.

I actually wanted to try this again to see the results. I just filled out the form and will try to get it shipped out by Friday. Thanks for your patience Kex!

[edtyct]

This is just an excuse to raise this thread so that I can get at it easily, but an update would be nice. Kexo, do you have it yet?

[kexodusc]

Had a blast using that little gadget on a few sets.

I must say, I was quite impressed with how well it calibrates a set compared to following Avia or DVE. IMO, not being a pro, it's every bit as capable as either disc with a few exceptions - you won't learn as much about how a TV works, what each setting does etc, so it's less educational, but it's much quicker and easier, which I believe many people would rather have. What it doesn't measure via the colorimeter it offers on the DVD - for example sharpness and other test patterns.

For the majority of non-professionals, this would be a great addition to the HT toolbox. A bit pricey by comparison, perhaps, but definitely easier to use than Avia or DVE.
For any electronics retailer or department store, you'd be foolish not to buy one of these to offer setup at home for a nominal fee, say $20-$30, or something, perhaps done at delivery. It's fast and easy and really does make a big difference over default settings or calibration "by eye".
I think Datacolor could aggressively market this to a/v retailers as a value-adding device. Even Blockbuster and video joints could probably offer it for rent or something - it's an excellent, inexpensive device that would be worth renting on the cheap.
It's not ISF calibration, but it takes only 30-40 minutes and wouldn't cost you $300-$400.

On my set, using DVE and Avia led me to the same settings compared with each other, and the Spyderfor the most part. The Spyder offered a significant different take on the Brightness and Contrast, however. I tried a few different lighting settings, just to make sure it wasn't being skewed by ambient light.

The setup DVD's suggested 46 brightness, and 38 contrast (range 0-100) on my Toshiba 51" RPTV. This made the overall picture a bit dark, but also cleaned up the image.

Spyder suggested lowering the Brightness a bit to 44 (which wasn't insubstantial despite being only 2 clicks) but to jack the Contrast up to an amazing 62. First thing I thought was why is it pushing my contrast to Torch Mode levels (100 on my set.)

Odd. To my naked, untrained eye the pictures are more just a bit more dynamic, dark night scenes are more a bit more detailed during daylight hours now especially, and slightly easier to follow. At night, the differences aren't really that noticeable most of the time. The overall picture is brigther but not nearly as bad as the best default option, which just slipped them both to "50". Dunno if it was just me but the 3 sets I used this on which were calibrated with DVE/Avia all saw the contrast go up and brightness go down.

Don't know if this is a case of one being more accurate than the other, or me making mistakes during Avia or DVE, but I ran enough tests over very different light settings to feel comfortable that human error was minimal. Still flip back and forth between the Avia and Syder recommendations, don't know which I prefer yet.

Anyway, a great big thanks to edtyct, who obvioulsy put in a lot of time and effort in order to make all this possible. This is the kind of a/v enthusiast "community building" stuff a site like this can offer. He gets my vote for ar.com-er of the year!

Now, if anyone wants to offer to send around a set of Focus Audio Master Series FM-2's, lemme know....

[allan_37]

Just curoius how do you use the sharpness test pattern supplied with spyder TV in the additional test pattern section.