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EdwardGein
01-23-2006, 11:13 PM
Open to anyones opinions on this based upon their actual listening experience. For pure CD sound, we're not talking about DVD sound or speakers or receivers, what brand DVD player & model for you has produced the best CD sound? Was this connected to your receiver by optic cable or by analogue cables (please include the brand name & model too)? You can include Universal players in this but for this particular thread we're only talking regular CD's not DVD-A's or SACD's?

audiomadness
01-24-2006, 02:42 AM
Open to anyones opinions on this based upon their actual listening experience. For pure CD sound, we're not talking about DVD sound or speakers or receivers, what brand DVD player & model for you has produced the best CD sound? Was this connected to your receiver by optic cable or by analogue cables (please include the brand name & model too)? You can include Universal players in this but for this particular thread we're only talking regular CD's not DVD-A's or SACD's?


I've been using my Pioneer Elite DV-45A Universal Player as my work horse source unit for some time now and have been immensely satisfied with the quality of it's 2channel presentation. I generally use the digital coax outs mainly for DD/DTS movies and use the 2channel analog outs for my 2channel pure CD music listening as well as the high rez formats. I've actually compared the sound through both connections on my NAD T752 with CDs. Through my ears, I couldn't go wrong with either of the connections because both sounded very good, but the DAC's on the Pioneer Elite had somewhat of an edge towards warmth on my CDs. The Burr-Brown's on the Pioneer Elite probably had something to do with that.

RJW1138
01-24-2006, 08:05 AM
There's a thread on AudioAsylum regarding a CD player shootout, where an $85 Panasonic DVD-S35 comes in 3rd, in a field of $85 to $10,000 players. VERY impressive if it's true. Here's the link:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=168525&highlight=blind+shootout&r=&session=


From loser to winner, here's how it went:

Pioneer Elite DV-09 ($2200 new)
47 Labs Flatfish with battery power supply and Progression DAC ($10,000)
Classe (can't remember the model, but older model) $3,000 or so
Audio Research CD-3 $5,000 or so
Sony DVP9000ES playing as redbook CD player $1,500
Meridian 588 (don't know the price)
Panasonic (can't remember the model number) $85
Sony DVP9000ES playing as an SACD player $1,500
Cary 306/200 $5,000

I know if I was buying, I'd be checking this baby out!

RJW1138
01-24-2006, 08:18 AM
I've been using my Pioneer Elite DV-45A Universal Player as my work horse source unit for some time now and have been immensely satisfied with the quality of it's 2channel presentation. I generally use the digital coax outs mainly for DD/DTS movies and use the 2channel analog outs for my 2channel pure CD music listening as well as the high rez formats. I've actually compared the sound through both connections on my NAD T752 with CDs. Through my ears, I couldn't go wrong with either of the connections because both sounded very good, but the DAC's on the Pioneer Elite had somewhat of an edge towards warmth on my CDs. The Burr-Brown's on the Pioneer Elite probably had something to do with that.

Hmm, I've got a T742 and I'm pretty sure it's got the same DACs as the T752. I was using an old CD changer hooked up digitally to my receiver for my source. I ended up having to buy a dedicated CD player once it was pointed out to me just how poor the DACs in the receiver were for neutral, 2-channel rendering (I borrowed an $1800 universal player for a day, and hooked up "analogly", it smoked the setup I had, so I knew there were problems). I now use a Cambridge 640C, and it's pretty darn good. If I hook it up digitally too and switch back and forth between analog and digital, it's extremely apparent just how bad the DACs in the NAD receiver are.

Just thought you might want to know this. There's another several levels of fidelity above what you're experiencing, if you find your Pioneer to only be marginally better than your NAD...

topspeed
01-24-2006, 09:32 AM
At only ~$600, the Denon 2910 is a top contender. Very good picture combined with excellent audio in all formats. Faroudja chipset and top of the line BB DAC's. It's connected via Harmonic Tech ic's for analog and a Monster optic cable. My avr has the exact same BB DAC's as the 2910 and when switching between digital and analog inputs, the only difference I can discern is more bass when using the digital input, but that's a product of the bass management. Naturally, this is for rbcd only, not hi-rez.

I previously had a Sony DVD, along with a few Sony CDP's, and none of them reproduced rbcd to my liking. The DAC's are the key. I'm partial to BB and Wolfson, but always audition everything yourself and see what works for you.

EdwardGein
01-24-2006, 11:52 AM
I should have added my choice right now Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player when connected by optics cable to my Denon 3801 receiver. Doesn't sound as good when connected by analogue cables. I may try to sample in stores though the brands/models listed on this thread. Particularly curious about the Denon 2910 DVD player as I was under the perhaps wrong impression they weren't as good as their receivers. I at one time got & returned one of Denon's most lower end DVD players & wasn't impressed with the sound at all- again this was a $250 or less model (don't remember which).

N. Abstentia
01-24-2006, 12:38 PM
If your H/K sounds bad when connected with analog cables that means it has crappy DAC's and poor audio stages. Using the digital cable bypasses all that and uses the DAC's in your receiver. This also means that as long as you're using that digital cable there won't be any differences in sound between players, it does not matter what you get. Using the analog outputs is the only way you can test the sound quality.

And my choice is the Marantz DV-6400. I tried many, and still have this one :)

EdwardGein
01-24-2006, 02:04 PM
I know we've had this recurring argument but there really was a big difference between the optic on the Harmon Kardon & hearing the optic on several other DVD players with the same receiver. Also the optic on the Harmon Kardon also sounded better then the analogue as well as these DVD players. None of the other DVD players I tried were over $300 so maybe that's why.

topspeed
01-24-2006, 04:38 PM
By using digital ic's, every cdp/dvd player you hook up is a glorified transport. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel you can hear a difference between transports (and you certainly wouldn't be alone), then that's fine. Just know what you're listening to, because it isn't the player per se. The transport and tray on the 2910 are rock solid, a fact illustrated in this Audioholics review (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonDVD-2910Review3.php) that plainly demonstrates the difference between entry level players and the 2910.

Hope this helps.

Woochifer
01-24-2006, 04:58 PM
At only ~$600, the Denon 2910 is a top contender. Very good picture combined with excellent audio in all formats. Faroudja chipset and top of the line BB DAC's. It's connected via Harmonic Tech ic's for analog and a Monster optic cable. My avr has the exact same BB DAC's as the 2910 and when switching between digital and analog inputs, the only difference I can discern is more bass when using the digital input, but that's a product of the bass management. Naturally, this is for rbcd only, not hi-rez.

I previously had a Sony DVD, along with a few Sony CDP's, and none of them reproduced rbcd to my liking. The DAC's are the key. I'm partial to BB and Wolfson, but always audition everything yourself and see what works for you.

Actually, the Sony SCD-CE595 (their entry level SACD player) and the ES model that I bought both use the Burr-Brown 179x series DACs that the 2910 and Denon's current batch of receivers use. The improved performance that I got with CD audio was a pleasant surprise when I switched to that CD/SACD changer.

This same DAC was also used in the Arcam CD72 CD player (the successor to that model changed to the same Wolfson DACs that Arcam's more expensive CD players use). Believe it or not, that Burr-Brown DAC has also shown up in the entry level Toshiba SD-4960 and Pioneer DV-563A universal players, both of which sold for under $200 and are very popular with modders who claim that with analog section upgrades, those players can approach the performance of far more expensive high end CD players. Pioneer went to a different (and cheaper in all likelihood) DAC when the successor model was introduced; not sure what Toshiba did with their newer model.

musicman1999
01-24-2006, 05:51 PM
my current dvd player is a cambridge audio 540d and when connected by analog cables it is not a bad cd player,i would estimate it to be as good as a cheaper dedicated cd player,such as cambridges 340c or perhaps 540c.it does not however hold a candle to my arcam cd73t cd player in any way.the highs are rolled off,midrange lacks body and the lows lack body.soundstage is also not as wide or deep.to be fair however i did not expect it to be,it costs half as much.
thanks
bill

EdwardGein
01-24-2006, 07:15 PM
Anyone know of any links that rank DVD/Universal Players or CD players?

EdwardGein
01-24-2006, 11:37 PM
Thanks for the link Here are the specificiations from the Harmon Kardon DVD 31 Player I have: Digital-to-analog conversion: Video: 10-Bit/27MHz-54MHz D/A conversion; audio: Wolfson 192kHz/24-Bit D/A conversion

Is this significantly different then the Denon DVD-2910: 24 bit, 192kHz DSD-1791 audio DACs, an Analog Devices 32-bit processor and 80 Hz crossover with 12dB and 24dB low pass slopes, HDCD decoder, and 24/96kHz compatible digital outputs.

If I play the same CD back to back on the Denon through my same receiver (Denon 3801)
connected analogue or optical (whichever gives the best sound to me) will it sound significantly better then my Harmon Kardon (attached by optical cable)? If not, would you guess it would sound 20% better, 40%, whatever, or is their basically a point of diminishing returns where sound quality improvement is not that noticeable?

Thanks

shokhead
01-25-2006, 06:40 AM
I've been playing everything through the analogs on my Sony because it just sounds a bit different then the Denon Receiver. Different better sometimes and not as good sometimes. I still go back and forth but the Sony can hold its own. Dont know what its got inside but the difference between them is very small.

RJW1138
01-25-2006, 09:13 AM
Anyone know of any links that rank DVD/Universal Players or CD players?

Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity has the most comprehensive ranking of DVD players based on highly extensive video testing that I've ever seen. It's awe-inspiring, really. However, it's video only. They do not test the audio performance. If you're interested, though, it's totally worth checking out.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

As for a review site that does the same for the audio performance of Universal and CD players, I'm not aware of any such thing. I'd kill for there to be one! User review sites where any shmuck can chime in with their often unprofessional, limited, and ignorant opinion (like AudioReview et al.) have incredibly limited usefulness - they're mostly useful to satiate curiosity and for a bit of fun, and that's about it. With professional review sites, you're limited by the selection of products they choose to review, and often the impracticality of their price ranges and pretentiousness of their reviewers. But the crux is that I've never seen a site like this actually have the guts to RANK anything. Rather, they just assign grades, often but not always taking price into consideration, and leave it at that. It's up to you to determine what ranks better than what else, taking price and performance into consideration and determining for yourself what sits at the best price/performance ratio for your budget. Then again, I completely admit the difficulties in ranking audio performance anyways, where subjectivity can be a significant factor. It's not like there's a suite of audio tests that can obtain the same objective results analogous to the video tests that Secrets uses. Oh well, I'm afraid this is how it will probably always be.

However, if I didn't need to work for a living, I just might try to make such a site....

Ryan

EdwardGein
01-25-2006, 12:52 PM
I agree with you on the worth of consumer online reviews, but I do seem to think if a bunch of different reviewers on different sites are totally gung ho over something, the product merits further research by me. Amazon.com reviews are the worst as some of those people are in left field looking at right. My favorite "review" Non Electronics kind, for a DVD, this is a classic, is some idiot who said that the whole DVD was ruined because in the special features for directors commentary (where they show the whole movie with the directory commenting) the director gives away what will happen in the movie in the beginning of the commentary. Like the idiot doesn't realise you're suppose to watch the movie first with this!

Also I definately wouldn't be surprised if some professional reviewers have either taken money, product favors or been told by their boss to write something positive or more positive.
Didn't say all of them but I'd venture a fraction of them do.

topspeed
01-25-2006, 05:37 PM
Thanks for the link Here are the specificiations from the Harmon Kardon DVD 31 Player I have: Digital-to-analog conversion: Video: 10-Bit/27MHz-54MHz D/A conversion; audio: Wolfson 192kHz/24-Bit D/A conversion

Is this significantly different then the Denon DVD-2910: 24 bit, 192kHz DSD-1791 audio DACs, an Analog Devices 32-bit processor and 80 Hz crossover with 12dB and 24dB low pass slopes, HDCD decoder, and 24/96kHz compatible digital outputs.
Well first off, the stats you listed for the Denon were it's audio processing. The video side uses a Faroudja FL2310 12bit/216 MHz video D/A converter. What does it mean? For one, it's a lot faster than the HK chipset. On the audio side, it's all a matter of taste. You might like the Wolfson better than the BB's. That's up to you to decide.


If I play the same CD back to back on the Denon through my same receiver (Denon 3801) connected analogue or optical (whichever gives the best sound to me) will it sound significantly better then my Harmon Kardon (attached by optical cable)? Define "significant." It's rare in audio to encounter night and day changes, especially in cd players that are close to the same price point.


If not, would you guess it would sound 20% better, 40%, whatever, or is their basically a point of diminishing returns where sound quality improvement is not that noticeable?There is absolutely a point of diminishing returns. Where the point is depends on how committed you are to this hobby. For the vast majority of the population, mid-fi gear is plenty. For the lunatic fringe, there is no end to their quest for ultimate fidelity. Neither are right or wrong, it's simply a matter of how serious you are and, more likely, how deep your wallet is.

EdwardGein
01-25-2006, 07:00 PM
Any idea what stores carry & will play this model?

topspeed
01-26-2006, 10:07 AM
Any idea what stores carry & will play this model?
In answer to your question, check Denon's website for authorized retailers. It's not like they are a boutique brand like Ayre or Wadia. You can find them at Magnolia Hi-Fi, Tweeter, and any number of A/V shops spread throughout the Southland. In SoCal Hershon, you very well may have more options available to you than in any other area in the country!

Now then, you say you're on the lunatic fringe? Cool. Understand this basic tenet: every quest for ultimate fidelity starts with the speakers. If you really want to improve the sound of your rig, I'm talking about a night and day difference here, you should forget about your HK and focus on replacing your speakers. As we have told you countless times they are, without a shred of doubt, your limiting factor. To affect a quantum jump in performance, forget the snake oil cd treatments and magic rocks. Change your speakers. It's not that Orbs are bad, it's just that there are a lot better to be had.

Hope this helps.

shokhead
01-26-2006, 10:29 AM
Orbs are limited. Even some good small bookshelfs would be night and day. Hershon can come over anytime and listen to myB&W601's which would be a nice speaker for him.

HT BUFF
01-26-2006, 12:29 PM
I would like to add my opinion here, so many times I have heard dealers say "CD players have better sound with CD'S than DVD players do" I could never understand that comment as DVD 5.1 sound is by far much superior than CD sound, so in otherwords if a DVD player can decode sound so well from DVD's it should do an equally good job with CD's as well.
In answer to your question I have a Denon 1910 DVD player and it is great for both using Digital output.

L.J.
01-26-2006, 12:43 PM
I agree with Topspeep. I upgraded to my 2910 before getting new speakers so I was able to note the improvement in sound. Upgrading my speakers has made the biggest improvement by far.

shokhead
01-26-2006, 12:59 PM
I would like to add my opinion here, so many times I have heard dealers say "CD players have better sound with CD'S than DVD players do" I could never understand that comment as DVD 5.1 sound is by far much superior than CD sound, so in otherwords if a DVD player can decode sound so well from DVD's it should do an equally good job with CD's as well.
In answer to your question I have a Denon 1910 DVD player and it is great for both using Digital output.

The player isnt decoding anything through the digital connection.

nightflier
01-26-2006, 01:55 PM
This may have been overkill, but I placed an Aragon DAC under my DVD player and the sound from the optical output to the DAC & then RCA to the receiver is a substantial improvement (perhaps 30%?) over connecting the RCA cables straight between the DVD player & the receiver.

My setup (nothing special, but functional):

Source: Sony DVP-NS775V DVD/SACD player
Receiver: HK DVP1001 digital receiver
DAC: Aragon D2A2
RCA Cables: Heartland Cables (Canare L-5CFB & Canare RCAP connectors)
Coax Cable: Audioquest VDM-3

I don't think the Sony's internal DAC is one of the better ones out there but the D2A2 made a substantial improvement. If you want to make a $150 player (CD or DVD) sound like a $2500 one, a second-hand DAC (I believe I paid $180 for the D2A2 on eBay) is the best solution. Better priced second-hand DACs can be found in brands like California Audio Labs & others. Just make sure you start with a well-built player like Marantz, Cambridge, etc, and stay away from ones with too many plastic parts.

EdwardGein
01-26-2006, 03:43 PM
I'm not that swift in technical matters so can you please explain this. How does one place an (Argon) DAC under your DVD player. I don't understand. Do you mean you opened yours up and replaced the DAC with this? How does a person without technical knowledge do this or do they not & just take it to an electrician or someone to install? Thanks



This may have been overkill, but I placed an Aragon DAC under my DVD player and the sound from the optical output to the DAC & then RCA to the receiver is a substantial improvement (perhaps 30%?) over connecting the RCA cables straight between the DVD player & the receiver.

My setup (nothing special, but functional):

Source: Sony DVP-NS775V DVD/SACD player
Receiver: HK DVP1001 digital receiver
DAC: Aragon D2A2
RCA Cables: Heartland Cables (Canare L-5CFB & Canare RCAP connectors)
Coax Cable: Audioquest VDM-3

I don't think the Sony's internal DAC is one of the better ones out there but the D2A2 made a substantial improvement. If you want to make a $150 player (CD or DVD) sound like a $2500 one, a second-hand DAC (I believe I paid $180 for the D2A2 on eBay) is the best solution. Better priced second-hand DACs can be found in brands like California Audio Labs & others. Just make sure you start with a well-built player like Marantz, Cambridge, etc, and stay away from ones with too many plastic parts.

nightflier
01-26-2006, 04:47 PM
I'm not that swift in technical matters so can you please explain this. How does one place an (Argon) DAC under your DVD player. I don't understand. Do you mean you opened yours up and replaced the DAC with this? How does a person without technical knowledge do this or do they not & just take it to an electrician or someone to install? Thanks

Sorry, I should have clarified that the DAC is a seperate component. BTW, the Aragon is a bit wide and would not fit on everyone's audio rack, but if you're looking for something small and very high quality, the Classe DAC1 is awesome and only about the size of a large brick - it can fit behind things if you want. It's running about $500 used right now so if that's too expensive try a used CAL, Audio Alchemy, or even a Theta unit. DAC's really have no moving parts and so they tend to last a long time w/o needing service (unlike a CD/DVD player).

HT BUFF
01-26-2006, 07:43 PM
Not sure what you mean there, it is the only connection I have, do not use analog cables??
Are you talking that the receiver does the ALL the decoding?

shokhead
01-26-2006, 08:18 PM
Dig and the receiver decodes and analogs the player does.

jamison
01-26-2006, 09:44 PM
well my best sounding cd audio is still my CD player... I have a Pioneer DV-45A, dvd and the pioneer 301 disc dvd changer F727? My Cd player is a pioneer PDR-839 compact disc recorder with a 3 disc changer on the left and a burner on the right.. the changer is clunky and takes a while to load cds but it does give a a heckofalot better sound than either of my DVD players.. I use the DV-45 A for SACD and DVD AUDIO mostly I have tried it for CD audio and it just doesnt impress me a lot.. it also says it plays MP3s but It wont recognize all the tracks on my mp3 cds so i skip it.
I have the Cd player connected with analog connections and I also have a Coax digital connection going into My Alesis DEQ230D EQ. from there it goes to my preamp. the analog sounds great but so does the digital....I use to eq to tweak the bass either up or down very slightly and sometimes i cut the highs on some of the heavy metal stuff i listen to.. no upside down xmas treees on my eq thank you

jamison
01-26-2006, 09:50 PM
BTW i did some checking on that Panny dvd player... seems its reliability is an issue... not getting very good reviews on amazon.com

shokhead
01-27-2006, 06:09 AM
BTW i did some checking on that Panny dvd player... seems its reliability is an issue... not getting very good reviews on amazon.com

Which one would that be?

shokhead
01-27-2006, 07:07 AM
I'd like to know some DVD players that have better Dac's then say the Denon 2805,3805,the same mid priced Yamahas and Pioneers.

nightflier
01-27-2006, 03:58 PM
Not sure what you mean there, it is the only connection I have, do not use analog cables??
Are you talking that the receiver does the ALL the decoding?

No the DAC does.

jamison
01-27-2006, 05:36 PM
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=168525&highlight=blind+shootout&r=&session=

gorilla196635
01-28-2006, 07:21 PM
Yamaha CDC735 CDP
Pioneer CLDM301 LDP

I use both of these players for CD. The Pioneer is quite old and still works great. CD sound is probably the best I have heard from all of my devices.. It is hooked up anologue....

The Yamaha is good as well, was supposed to be my dedicated CD player since it has 5 CD changer and I too was told a dedicated CD player will sound better than DVD players... However the Yamaha skips very randomly and sometimes from song to song and back and forth... So i have gone back to old faithful Pioneer laser disc player...