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msrance
01-17-2004, 06:42 PM
Hello Friends - I know I keep asking these rather basic questions but thats how i would come to par with you guys.

I have this Yamaha AX-596 Integrated Stereo Amp rated at 100 w/c @ 8 ohms. This is being used to power a pair of Sonodyne Floorstanders - Sonus 1601 - which are rated at 80 Watts @ 4 ohms and a Sonodyne subwoofer - Roarr 2 - rated at 100 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.

Could you please help me with this one and tell me why does my amp shut down on its own at such puny volume? I hoped it would give me a couple of shattered window panes and a perforated ear drum - instead its giving me a shattered heart !

And there is this added problem - when i play my pioneer DVD player - DV366 - the sound output is reasonable - but when I direct my Satellite radio's output to the amp - thru the tuner connectors - the volume output is 60 - 70% less than the DVD output. What could be the reason for this?

This Guy
01-17-2004, 07:07 PM
your amp only handles 8 ohm loads, and here you're giving it two 4 ohm speakers that may go down to even 1 ohm, and im not sure how your powering the subwoofer (passive or active)? But my assumption is that the amp can't handle this speaker load and you need a better amp that can handle low impediance speakers.

-Joey

karl k
01-17-2004, 09:26 PM
Hello Friends - I know I keep asking these rather basic questions but thats how i would come to par with you guys.

I have this Yamaha AX-596 Integrated Stereo Amp rated at 100 w/c @ 8 ohms. This is being used to power a pair of Sonodyne Floorstanders - Sonus 1601 - which are rated at 80 Watts @ 4 ohms and a Sonodyne subwoofer - Roarr 2 - rated at 100 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.

Could you please help me with this one and tell me why does my amp shut down on its own at such puny volume? I hoped it would give me a couple of shattered window panes and a perforated ear drum - instead its giving me a shattered heart !

And there is this added problem - when i play my pioneer DVD player - DV366 - the sound output is reasonable - but when I direct my Satellite radio's output to the amp - thru the tuner connectors - the volume output is 60 - 70% less than the DVD output. What could be the reason for this?
Guy is right about the amp and the speakers. I find it odd that of the 2 floorstanders available from Sonus, you would pick the one that was 4ohm. Must have been a price thing. Well, you'll have to get a "high current" amp to run those babies... something in a Harmon receiver or equivilent. Must be 4ohm(or much higher wattage capacity at 8ohm) though or you'll have the same prob.

About the mismatch between the sat and the DVD... it may help if the DVD player has it's own output gain control to turn it down to more closely match your sat radio. In doing so, your amp should be able to be turned up but be warned, you will not get any more volume out of the system than you already have w/o the amp overheating. You'll just be able to turn the volume higher to get the same sound and the sat will be closer to the same volume as the DVD player.

Sorry it couldn't be better news...

msrance
01-18-2004, 01:06 AM
So guys, what you are suggesting is that fault lies with the low impedence of the speakers - I should have opted for the 8 ohm version. Well, yes, the pricing factor was all important at that point of time.

But its heartening to know that this is a universal problem caused by the physics of electricity and nothing plagueing my particular amplifier.

F1
01-20-2004, 04:52 AM
One way to solve your problem is to connect a 4 ohm resistor in series for each speaker. So the connection is like this (from either + or - terminal): Amplifier - Resistor - Speaker. This will give extra 4 ohms total impedance of your speaker and your amp should not trip so easily.

msrance
01-21-2004, 03:42 AM
Thanks F1. This seems the most heartening reply to my querry ! I am rather a novice myself at electricity. Actually I hated the electricity physics so bad - i dropped out of my engeneering just coz of it.
So now if you have to some time to spare - would you just let me know what a resistance would look like and how do you put into "series with the speaker" ? How does one connect the speaker cable to the resistor - basically where and how exactly do you put the resistance?

F1
01-21-2004, 05:29 AM
I'm not an electrical engineer myself, but let me try. Resistors look like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=141
and you need higher wattage than the common 1/2 watt for normal electrical circuit (the one with rings of different colors). So you need resistor that looks like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=004-4&DID=7
or
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=005-4&DID=7

As for the connection, place the resistor between amplifier and speaker. With your existing connection for example, unplug the + (red) wire from the speaker terminal, connect one end of the resistor to the wire (put together, twist, tape) then plug the other end of the resistor to the speaker + terminal. Make sure the bare metal is not touching the - (black) terminal (use tape if necessary). By placing the resistor in series with your speaker, the sound characteristics may change a bit. Anyway, resistor is cheap and I think it's worth trying. Good luck.

jack70
01-21-2004, 06:30 PM
Different amp topographies react differently with different loads. Some amps wouldn't have a problem with those speakers in parallel. Other amps are even more finicky about capacitive reactance or other complex impedance anomalies. But some amps will drive just about anything. Sorta like car engines... a huge diesel-truck engine, a hi-rpm sports car engine, and an average passenger car engine are all designed for doing certain things best... providing brute force (pulling) power, quick (racing) torque, or gas mileage. So you're right... it's all basic physics.

I agree with This Guy that it's possible the impedance could drop to 1 ohm or less at certain frequencies... the amp might be able to handle that only at very low volumes. I'd play the system with just one speaker per channel. Then connect them in series... it's not something that should give you any better upside, but it's worth trying... you might like the sound better (depends on the music and loudness you prefer).

Using power resistors has some downsides, most of which are dependent on the amp circuitry and how loud you plan to run it. It's not an elegant solution for sure, and could even blow out certain components under high stress unless you know some simple Ohms-law stuff.

mtrycraft
01-21-2004, 09:20 PM
One way to solve your problem is to connect a 4 ohm resistor in series for each speaker. So the connection is like this (from either + or - terminal): Amplifier - Resistor - Speaker. This will give extra 4 ohms total impedance of your speaker and your amp should not trip so easily.

The only problem I see is that half the power will be eaten up by the resistor, in which case he needs a high power resistor or it will go up in smoke, and the volume in th espeaker will not get very loud if half the power is in the resistor.

F1
01-21-2004, 11:40 PM
The only problem I see is that half the power will be eaten up by the resistor, in which case he needs a high power resistor or it will go up in smoke, and the volume in th espeaker will not get very loud if half the power is in the resistor.

Yes, it's true that the power of the amplifier will be reduced and higher power resistor is needed. 4 watt or higher resistors (see the link above) should be fine, again not the typical 1/2 watt resistor. I would not worry about the volume as he can turn the volume up more if needed. Cheers.

skeptic
01-22-2004, 06:47 AM
The effective amplifier damping factor as seen by the loudspeaker will drop below one. Depending on the inherent low frequency resonances of the speaker, this could result in a change which is anything from inaudible to becoming very boomy. I'd probably opt for at least a 25 watt resistor and I think 2 ohms should be given a try before you try 4. In fact, if 2 ohms doesn't work, you could get another pair of 1 or 2 ohm resistors and add them in series with the first ones.

E-Stat
01-22-2004, 02:30 PM
When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.

It is quite possible that there are no problems at all in your system, other than an unintentional case of overdriving the amplifier. Since your subwoofers are powered units, that would likely rule out the difficult load scenario that some have speculated upon. I believe you may simply be unaware of the relative nature of the gain (volume) control. Full output of most amplifiers usually occurs far earlier than at the maximum position.

Basically, all audio systems are composed of multiple amplifiers, each driving the next one in the signal chain. Engineers will usually build in some extra capability in each stage in order to cover variations in other components. In your system, there are three output stages: one in the DVD player (or tuner), one in the preamplifier section of your integrated amp, and one in the power amplier section of your integrated. Most CD/DVD players put out somewhere around 2 volts. In some cases, even more. Your integrated amplifier, however, is likely designed to operate with far less. For example, my NAD 320 BEE integrated can be driven to full output with a .22 volt input. That is roughly one tenth the amount that is being sent to it by the player. Since I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 40%, I will use the clockface as an alternative way to visualize the setting of the gain control. With my Pioneer CDP, I get full output on the NAD at about 10:00 with most content. Moving it further simply pushes it into overload, called clipping. The sound becomes noticeably distorted. Persistent clipping will usually result in the protective circuitry of an amplifier to intercede.

In another system of mine, I take advantage of this situation and simply eliminate the middle stage. The CD player drives the amplifiers directly. In this system, full gain occurs at just below the 2:00 position. In both systems, I am getting the full output of the amplifier being driven, albeit at very different settings on the gain control.

rw

F1
01-22-2004, 06:49 PM
The effective amplifier damping factor as seen by the loudspeaker will drop below one. Depending on the inherent low frequency resonances of the speaker, this could result in a change which is anything from inaudible to becoming very boomy. I'd probably opt for at least a 25 watt resistor and I think 2 ohms should be given a try before you try 4. In fact, if 2 ohms doesn't work, you could get another pair of 1 or 2 ohm resistors and add them in series with the first ones.

Good point that he should give the 2 ohms a try first; not to make so much changes to the original design while improving the impedance. Regarding the wattage, typical wattage for the crossover resistors (non inductive types) is between 4 to 12 watts. The resistors in my speaker are 7 and 10 watts. Do you think this wattage rating is not sufficient for his application? I'm wondering if he gets the higher power resistor, the ones that are available are the inductive type, which may cause very audible diference.

msrance
01-22-2004, 10:23 PM
Guys , thanks for the load of help. I will try out the resistor thing and let you guys know what became of it. I am going out to search for the resistor - I hope I get that Great Resistors here in India.

As far as the 40% volume is concerned - I meant 10 o clock on a clock face. And I do agree with you that after that position it does start distorting and the general warmth of the sounds disapperas into something more harsh. just before you hit that point - you never realise how high the volume is - it seems so soothing to the ears.

I hope I can do this Resistor thing - You know like i said - i was so afraid of the electricity that i had to drop out of electrical engg in my first yr itself and change professions to medicine!!! I hope I dont burn my fingers at this ! Last thing i want is fellow doctors making a jest of it !!! :)

jeskibuff
02-01-2004, 09:32 AM
I will try out the resistor thing and let you guys know what became of it.
I don't think you're going to be happy with the results. As was said previously, the resistor is going to suck up about half the power that would normally go to the speaker. This will solve the dilemma with the Yamaha because it would now perceive that it's driving an 8-ohm speaker, so the protection circuitry should no longer trip.

But the problem is in the volume, isn't it? You wanted to play your speakers louder, and when you cranked up the volume, the Yamaha shut down. With the resistor in place, the volume (at the same knob position, say 10 o'clock) should be less than it was before because the resistor's consuming half the power. So now, you may have to crank the volume knob up ALL the way (or close to it) to get to the same volume you were playing prior to the protection circuitry kicking in. So, you haven't gained ANYTHING, except that you're consuming more electricity at WHATEVER volume you're listening to and the receiver shouldn't go into standby mode anymore.

What you need is... either get used to listening at lower volumes or buy a more powerful amp/receiver or get new, more efficient speakers
On that list of options, I would shoot for the more powerful amp!

F1
02-01-2004, 05:00 PM
I don't think you're going to be happy with the results. As was said previously, the resistor is going to suck up about half the power that would normally go to the speaker. This will solve the dilemma with the Yamaha because it would now perceive that it's driving an 8-ohm speaker, so the protection circuitry should no longer trip.

But the problem is in the volume, isn't it? You wanted to play your speakers louder, and when you cranked up the volume, the Yamaha shut down. With the resistor in place, the volume (at the same knob position, say 10 o'clock) should be less than it was before because the resistor's consuming half the power. So now, you may have to crank the volume knob up ALL the way (or close to it) to get to the same volume you were playing prior to the protection circuitry kicking in. So, you haven't gained ANYTHING, except that you're consuming more electricity at WHATEVER volume you're listening to and the receiver shouldn't go into standby mode anymore.

What you need is... either get used to listening at lower volumes or buy a more powerful amp/receiver or get new, more efficient speakers
On that list of options, I would shoot for the more powerful amp!

Here's my logic.
If the amplifier sees 8 ohm impedance it will output 100W/channel, which is as per specification. Now he is running something that is outside the specification, so boosting the impedance should help. Besides, let say by adding the resistor the amplifier is loosing half of the power (= become 100W/c) the volume will only reduce by 3 dB which is easily tackled by volume control.

jeskibuff
02-01-2004, 06:14 PM
Getting an amplifier to run "per specification" doesn't make much of a difference. You need the ability to drive a power-hungry speaker and for that, you need current. The Yamaha just can't deliver in that regard.

Let's use a water analogy. Consider a water wheel on a river. The water at the top of the wheel is the "voltage". It has the potential (through gravity) to move the wheel. Let's say the wheel is 20 feet high and let's equate that to 20 volts. A gallon of water at 20 feet has the same potential as each of 20,000 gallons of water waiting to push that wheel around. But one or two gallons just doesn't have the oomph to move the wheel. You need the ability to deliver enough current to make that wheel perform. A weak amplifier is like having ten little old ladies carrying water in buckets from a pond to the top of the wheel. Having a strong amplifier is like having Lake Mead supplying the water. When one gallon goes into the wheel, there's another gallon right behind it. Consequently, the wheel will "perform".

Now, putting a resistor in series with the speaker is like partially blocking the chute leading to the water wheel. The ten little old ladies (the Yamaha) can feel better that the water they dump into the chute doesn't disappear as quickly, but the wheel turns even slower than it did before! The resistor is ROBBING the power that the speaker needs. So you either need to get a smaller wheel (more efficient speakers), or get a more powerful amplifier (give the old ladies a break, willya?)


by adding the resistor the amplifier is loosing half of the power (= become 100W/c) the volume will only reduce by 3 dB which is easily tackled by volume control.That's really just saying you'll get those old ladies to work harder by flogging them with a whip! :D You've got that chute partially blocked, letting less water get to the wheel, but the overworked ladies CAN keep the chute at a higher level than before. BUT...the wheel barely turns. The speakers need CURRENT to move those drivers the way they are supposed to be driven. Give them current! DON'T DEPRIVE THEM!

F1
02-01-2004, 08:27 PM
I don't think there's any simple analogy can really explain the real electronics thing. But hey, resistor is cheap! If it works then he saves few hundred/thousand bucks from buying another amp or speaker.

spacedeckman
02-01-2004, 09:37 PM
1) If the sub is being driven by the integrated, that is BAD. An integrated amplifier or receiver is NOT meant to drive a sub. Get a powered sub, or add a dedicated amp desiged for woofer applications. Sorry Karl, the h/k would puke on its shoes as fast or faster than the Yamaha. Since the amplifier in the AX596 is pretty good, the h/k would probably shut down faster. Stop running the sub if it is being powered by the integrated for the time being.

2) If you still have a problem, you may have a shorting voice coil. That was the situation with a pair of Cantons a friend had recently.

3) If you are driving two sets of speakers, especially 4 ohm (having no idea of how reactive each is), 10 o'clock on the dial is where you are going to run out of gas. Sounds about right to me...that should be pretty dang loud. I hope your tone controls are set flat.

4) Consider having a crossover built, or finding one that will cross you over about 80 Hz between the speaker and woofer. Then the amplifier is only driving one at a time, and your problems will be somewhat solved. Capacitors and coils, 4 per side will get you a 12 dB slope which will work wonders.

5) you will really need to get a powered sub, or power what you've got. Sub amps are cheap, relatively speaking.

jeskibuff
02-02-2004, 03:30 AM
I don't think there's any simple analogy can really explain the real electronics thing.
Actually, electricity behaves A LOT like water. The analogy serves well to try to explain the way it works without getting into a technical explanation that would probably not be understood.

Get a powered subFunny, but a websearch on "Sonodyne Roarr 2" led me to the Sonodyne page (http://www.sonodyne.com/roar.htm) where they show only 2 models, the 1810 and 2815, both powered. The next good hit was msrance's own profile (http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=1577) in which he says the sub is powered. :rolleyes: :D The shorting voice coil is a possibility worth checking out. Also msrance...could you describe how the sub is hooked up? Does it feed off the high-level speaker connections or is it hooked up to low-level (RCA) connections? I would assume that because it's a 2-channel system, the Yamaha doesn't have a low-level subwoofer output. If connected to the speakers, just for funsies disconnect the sub altogether and see if you have the shutdown problem. It's possible that there's a wiring problem or that the sub is drawing too much signal off the lines, but the distortion that msrance is hearing above "the 40% volume" level is telling me that the Yamaha is just plain being overworked.

msrance
02-04-2004, 02:43 AM
Hi Guys. I guess I have been off the discussion lately - but all this while i have been trying to sort this out - and have I sorted it out buddy!!!


Funny, but a websearch on "Sonodyne Roarr 2" led me to the Sonodyne page where they show only 2 models, the 1810 and 2815, both powered.

Well on the very same page you will find link to the Roarr I, II, III and G22 powered subwoofers.


.could you describe how the sub is hooked up? Does it feed off the high-level speaker connections or is it hooked up to low-level (RCA) connections? I would assume that because it's a 2-channel system, the Yamaha doesn't have a low-level subwoofer output.

Well, yes, the Yamaha does connect thru high level speaker connections. But i had been misguided into connecting the speakers thru their terminals and connecting the sub thru the record out connection. This was probably what was causing the problem - after connecting the high level speaker connection to the powered sub and connecting the peakers to the sub's speaker out - that distortion problem was sorted out.

This left me with that problem of the protection circuitry cutting in before the volume could be really cranked up. I got myself a couple of real good 42" floorstanders from a DIY enthusiast rated at 8ohms and with 4 drivers per speaker - 1" fabric dome tweeter from Peerless, 5.25" mid range from rave, two 8" woofers from Rave with a rear vent. Boy does it really play.

That brings in a new phenomenon of boom / loose bass at high volumes - but that is sorted out somewhat by playing my old speakers and new speakers both as A+B speakers. Now the amp does not even cut in with the protection at any volume - and the present volumes for the system are about al i want - any more would be beyond the scope of my room walls endurance limit.


the h/k would puke on its shoes as fast or faster than the Yamaha. Since the amplifier in the AX596 is pretty good, the h/k would probably shut down faster.

I do agree on that one - the Yamaha AX596 does have a lot of power if mated with the correct speakers.

jeskibuff
02-04-2004, 05:43 AM
on the very same page you will find link to the Roarr I, II, III and G22 powered subwoofers.Well...duh...if it were a snake... :D

That brings in a new phenomenon of boom / loose bass at high volumes - but that is sorted out somewhat by playing my old speakers and new speakers both as A+B speakers.It's good that you've got the problem fixed, but exactly how are the speakers wired now? Do you have them in series (positive terminal of amp going to positive terminal of "speaker A". Negative terminal of speaker "A" going to positive of "speaker B". Negative terminal of speaker "B" going to negative terminal of Yamaha) or are they hooked up in parallel? Does the Yamaha have "A" and "B" speaker outputs with a front-panel selector?

msrance
02-05-2004, 09:27 AM
exactly how are the speakers wired now? Do you have them in series (positive terminal of amp going to positive terminal of "speaker A". Negative terminal of speaker "A" going to positive of "speaker B". Negative terminal of speaker "B" going to negative terminal of Yamaha) or are they hooked up in parallel? Does the Yamaha have "A" and "B" speaker outputs with a front-panel selector?

Yes, the Yamaha does have A and B speaker outputs with a front panel selector for either or both.

No, its not been connected the way you suggest. Actually its rather complicated - lets deal with it in 2 pieces.

The "A" speaker connector "positive" goes to the powered sub's "positive" and the sub's speaker out positive goes to the 4 ohm Sonodyne floorstanders positive. Ditto for the negatives.

The "B" speaker connector "positive" goes to the new 8 ohm speaker's "positive" and ditto for the negatives.

Alright this brings us to a new problem - do help me out with this one too buddy - it just freaks me out. I connected my computers sound card out to the Yamaha (Tape In) - and I used to get the sound from just the right channel speaker and that too at very low SPL compared to the tuner or the DVD, while the left channel speaker just gave a constant irritating hum. The same sound card when connected to my Altec Lansing XA 3021 speakers (2.1 system with powered sub running the sattelite speakers) used to give a perfect sound and harmony ( except that the sound levels were too low for my new much bigger room ).
This led me to connect the sound card out to the powered sub of the altec lansing and use the sattelite speaker out to connect to the Yamaha (since the altecs dont have a pre-out). This gave a routine output from the left channel speaker now (no hum) but now the sound from the right channel speaker was far out-volumed by the left. So that now everytime i listen to my MP3s without burning them on CD, I have to change the balance of the right and left speakers to get an adjusted output.
Besides if I turn up the volume on the altec's volume control - the sound starts clipping in the Yamaha even at 12 o clock position of the altec's volume control. This same Altec used to run hassle free even at its peak of 4 o clock position when it was connected with its own sattelite speakers.
I hope I am not going to blow up my Altec powered sub in trying all these permutations and combinations with the sound. Do help me with this one please.

jeskibuff
02-05-2004, 09:49 AM
Yes, the Yamaha does have A and B speaker outputs with a front panel selector for either or both.So you play both sets of speakers at the same time? If so, you're giving your Yamaha a REALLY tough load...by my calculations, about a 2.67-ohm load. The Yamaha may be able to take it, but it might be running pretty hot.

I connected my computers sound card out to the Yamaha (Tape In) - and I used to get the sound from just the right channel speaker and that too at very low SPL compared to the tuner or the DVD, while the left channel speaker just gave a constant irritating hum.This sounds like a connector problem to me. What kind of connector are you using? Is it just one cable with a mini-phono plug at one end and two male RCA plugs on the other end? Is it a combination of cables and a "Y" adapter?

This led me to connect the sound card out to the powered sub of the altec lansing and use the sattelite speaker out to connect to the Yamaha (since the altecs dont have a pre-out).You don't want to do that. The output level of the Altec should be too high for what your Yamaha is expecting.

I hope I am not going to blow up my Altec powered sub in trying all these permutations and combinations with the sound.The Altec has nothing to worry about. Your Yamaha IS vulnerable to damage, though!

MikeyBC
02-05-2004, 01:47 PM
Maybe your amp has a faulty thermoswitch that is prematurely activating the protection circuit....?? A good repair shop should be able to check it out.

msrance
02-07-2004, 02:29 AM
So you play both sets of speakers at the same time? If so, you're giving your Yamaha a REALLY tough load...by my calculations, about a 2.67-ohm load. The Yamaha may be able to take it, but it might be running pretty hot.

How do you make these calculations Jeskibuff? Could you help me out - just for further increase of general knowledge. Some how the Yamaha doesnt seem to be running too hot and its never tripped on the protection circuitry once since I have shifted to this configuration. Do you think this whole connection path somehow stumps the potection?


This sounds like a connector problem to me. What kind of connector are you using? Is it just one cable with a mini-phono plug at one end and two male RCA plugs on the other end? Is it a combination of cables and a "Y" adapter?

The sound card has a single mini phono plug at both ends that gets connected to the the auxiliary in of the Altec powered sub. From the Altec the standard Banana connector wires run one each from the sattelite speaker outputs to the Yamaha's Tape In inputs.


You don't want to do that. The output level of the Altec should be too high for what your Yamaha is expecting.

You have a point here - bcos I had never experienced this clipping with either of the equipment running seperately. What do you suggest as the solution to this problem. I have already tried connecting the sound card out directly to the Yamaha with "mini phono at one end and two male RCA plugs at other end - and like I told you - it just delivers a very low sound output from only the left channel speaker.


The Altec has nothing to worry about. Your Yamaha IS vulnerable to damage, though!

Do you suggest if all these methods are not working - i better revert back to using the computer-Altec and the Yamaha as two seperate units with no interconnectivity - rather than end up with a burnt Amp? But believe me the sound uotput of the Altec at 40W rms is really low for the room size.

jeskibuff
02-07-2004, 05:24 AM
How do you make these calculations Jeskibuff?Well, simplifying it requires considering your speakers just pure resistance loads. In fact, there are crossovers involved which add impedance and capacitance to the mix. Putting two speakers in series is a simple calculation. Just add the impedances. In other words, a 4-ohm speaker in series with an 8-ohm speaker would present a 12-ohm load to your amp/receiver. Connecting them in parallel (as you have done with the A/B setup) requires a different calculation. It requires summing the inverses, then inverting the sum. Mathematically, you could represents this as 1/((1/A) + (1/B)) where A and B are the impedances of your A and B speakers. So in your case, you would add 1/4 to 1/8, then divide that into 1, giving 2.67.


Some how the Yamaha doesnt seem to be running too hot and its never tripped on the protection circuitry once since I have shifted to this configuration. Do you think this whole connection path somehow stumps the potection?My best guess is that you may not be driving it hard enough (at loud volumes) to trip the circuitry and it's able to handle it. It's a gamble...the Yamaha MAY be able to handle it, or you MAY be stressing it a bit, reducing its usable lifespan. Maybe an email to Yamaha would get a better answer as to the detriments.


The sound card has a single mini phono plug at both ends that gets connected to the the auxiliary in of the Altec powered sub.I assume you mean the sound card cable. Both ends of that cable are probably stereo connectors, which should look like this: http://www.partsexpress.com/images/090-292t.jpg. Note the two black bands on the metal tip?

From the Altec the standard Banana connector wires run one each from the sattelite speaker outputs to the Yamaha's Tape In inputs.And you want to disconnect this PRONTO. Speaker outputs are way too high for low-level inputs. You could do permanent damage to the input circuitry on the Yamaha.

What do you suggest as the solution to this problem. I have already tried connecting the sound card out directly to the Yamaha with "mini phono at one end and two male RCA plugs at other end - and like I told you - it just delivers a very low sound output from only the left channel speaker.Well, this connection is what I wanted to find out more about...from the sound card to the Yamaha...forget the Altec for now. I suspect that you may have some mono connectors or the wrong "Y" adapter. Here's what a mono plug looks like: http://www.partsexpress.com/images/090-290t.jpg. Notice the single black band on the metal tip?

Do you suggest if all these methods are not working - i better revert back to using the computer-Altec and the Yamaha as two seperate units with no interconnectivity - rather than end up with a burnt Amp?You SHOULD be able to make the connection properly. If you're getting stereo output with your Altec speakers, you should get a good stereo input to your Yamaha.

F1
02-07-2004, 07:54 AM
It's good to know that the shut-off problem is solved. By rerouting the subwoofer basically your amplifier does not handle the freq below the crossover freq, which is now handled by subwoofer amplifier. It reduces a great deal of load since bass takes a lot of power.

As for the soundcard connection, I strongly believe you are using mono plug. Get the stereo jack as Jeskibuff suggested and I think it will solve the problem. I used to connect my computer from the soundcard to receiver using stereo mini plug at one end and two RCA plugs at the other end and never had such a balance/hum problem. Good luck.

msrance
02-07-2004, 09:56 AM
My best guess is that you may not be driving it hard enough (at loud volumes) to trip the circuitry and it's able to handle it. It's a gamble...the Yamaha MAY be able to handle it, or you MAY be stressing it a bit, reducing its usable lifespan. Maybe an email to Yamaha would get a better answer as to the detriments.

Maybe I will do just that - but i doubt if they will reply to dumb querries like these from imbeciles. Anyways no harn in giving it a try.


And you want to disconnect this PRONTO. Speaker outputs are way too high for low-level inputs. You could do permanent damage to the input circuitry on the Yamaha.

Thanks for that one buddy. That connections dumped. I woudnt try any new antics without better info hereafter.



I suspect that you may have some mono connectors or the wrong "Y" adapter. Notice the single black band on the metal tip?You SHOULD be able to make the connection properly. If you're getting stereo output with your Altec speakers, you should get a good stereo input to your Yamaha.

I am in a rather isolated, godforsaken place - where finding anything technical is out of question ( U can imagine the rest when i tell u, u dont find blank CD here ). Next time i go to Delhi - i sure will arrange for a stereo adapter for the Y cables.

But i must say Jeskibuff and F1 seem to be on the path to clairvoyance - peeping into my head to check out all things stupid that i could have done. And till now i thought it was just us doctors jobs to operate on people's minds!! Thanks a ton buddy.

jeskibuff
02-08-2004, 06:41 AM
there are crossovers involved which add impedance and capacitance to the mix.Oops...I meant "...inductance and capacitance...". Impedance is actually a measure of resistance, capacitance, inductance and other factors that resists or "impedes" electrical current flow.

Next time i go to Delhi - i sure will arrange for a stereo adapter for the Y cables.Before you do that, you need to tell us what you've got. If you get a stereo adapter but the "Y" cables are mono, it still won't work right.

But i must say Jeskibuff and F1 seem to be on the path to clairvoyance - peeping into my head to check out all things stupid that i could have done.Well, it helps that we've probably both done such "stupid" things many times in our lives. So, we're not clairvoyant...just "experienced"! Of course, when we "normal" people make mistakes, we just take our damaged electronics in to the repair shop. When you doctors use a mono heart bypass valve instead of a stereo valve, it has much more dire consequences! :D

msrance
02-09-2004, 01:49 AM
If you get a stereo adapter but the "Y" cables are mono, it still won't work right.

Yes, Jeskibuff, you could trust me to make these silly mistakes - but then the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me. The adapter is stereo - the one with two black bands - but the Y cables maybe mono. How do you check out if the Y cables are mono? except for the fact that they run only one speaker - how else do you get to that diagnosis?



Well, it helps that we've probably both done such "stupid" things many times in our lives. So, we're not clairvoyant...just "experienced"! Of course, when we "normal" people make mistakes, we just take our damaged electronics in to the repair shop. When you doctors use a mono heart bypass valve instead of a stereo valve, it has much more dire consequences! :D

First of all friend, let me clarify that its not that we docs are "abnormal" - we are about as normal as anyone else! Thank God for small mercies - there are no stereo heart valves. But I was just thinking - if the Y cables of such a valve were to short circuit - what would be the side effect to the individual's hair !! :D

jeskibuff
02-09-2004, 04:34 AM
...the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me.Ah...if I'm right, I think we may have located the problem. These are homemade cables? Are the connectors hand soldered to the wires? So far this looks like it may be the culprit and the source of the hum. Can you describe this cable? Does it have a stereo or mono mini-phono jack?

How do you check out if the Y cables are mono?I assume that you don't have a volt-ohm meter on hand. You can build a little continuity tester pretty easily from devices like battery-powered flashlights, remote controls and some wire. Let me know what you have on hand and I'll walk you through it. You need about a 2-foot section of flexible wiring such as cheap speaker cable. Lamp cord will work, but it will be harder to work with. A flashlight will work, but one where the flashlight will still work with the battery compartment opened. A battery-powered toy might be another good possibility, like a toy car.

F1
02-09-2004, 05:42 AM
Yes, Jeskibuff, you could trust me to make these silly mistakes - but then the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me. The adapter is stereo - the one with two black bands - but the Y cables maybe mono. How do you check out if the Y cables are mono? except for the fact that they run only one speaker - how else do you get to that diagnosis?


Strange, you have stereo mini plug but getting mono sound. Did you plug it in to the soundcard all the way in? Basically if you have connector something like this
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F001%5F002&product%5Fid=274%2D883
or
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=17904846&St=6322&St2=59894111&St3=30364886&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=4885&DID=7
(ok wrong size in the part from Partsexpress, but this type) you just need to connect one end to soundcard and the other end to normal RCA cable to amplifier.
Try also to connect to different input on the amplifier: aux, tape or else, and see if you have the same problem.

msrance
02-09-2004, 08:42 AM
Strange, you have stereo mini plug but getting mono sound. Did you plug it in to the soundcard all the way in? Basically if you have connector something like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=17904846&St=6322&St2=59894111&St3=30364886&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=4885&DID=7 you just need to connect one end to soundcard and the other end to normal RCA cable to amplifier. Try also to connect to different input on the amplifier: aux, tape or else, and see if you have the same problem.

Yes, my friend F1, You've hit it bang on again. This looks like the partsexpress cable. It is plugged all the way in. I tried connecting it with variuos inputs - but thats the best it ever does. The problem is with the Y cable that has a stereo adapter at one end and has connectors for connecting to Amp input. ( This chap calls them the Banana Plugs ).


Ah...if I'm right, I think we may have located the problem. These are homemade cables? Are the connectors hand soldered to the wires? So far this looks like it may be the culprit and the source of the hum. Can you describe this cable? Does it have a stereo or mono mini-phono jack?

Yes, Jeskibuff they are home made cables. The connectors are hand soldered to the wires. This cable has a mini phono jack at one end - from here two pairs of flimsy wires are soldered which at the other end are soldered to a pair of ?RCA connectors (the above mentioned ones- Banana Plugs)


I assume that you don't have a volt-ohm meter on hand. You can build a little continuity tester pretty easily from devices like battery-powered flashlights, remote controls and some wire. Let me know what you have on hand and I'll walk you through it. You need about a 2-foot section of flexible wiring such as cheap speaker cable. Lamp cord will work, but it will be harder to work with. A flashlight will work, but one where the flashlight will still work with the battery compartment opened. A battery-powered toy might be another good possibility, like a toy car.

Correct Assumption, friend. I indeed dont have a volt-ohm meter. I guess I could get it tested from some small time electronics repair chap. I dont think I could ever build such a thing even if I had all those things.

Did I ever tell you that I'd got admitted to an engineering college by sheer chance ? ( electric engineering - at that ). I flunked my 1st semester exam in 'Applied Mechanics'. Now thats what I call - undying interest in a subject. Not that I was dumb enough to not pass - I could complete my medicine without any hurdles along the way later - but i failed in engineering coz I just plain hated Physics, Electricity and the whole gamut of such insanities! The thought of making something brings back all the painful memories of failure!

Anyways, I do have a thin, copper lamp wire, a flashlight but not the kind that could work when open. I guess the TV repair chap would be a cheaper bet on this one. No toys - I am too old for them and no kids (actually no wife too) - so the whole thing might be a bit too expensive for a screening test. What's to be checked in this whole assembly?

jeskibuff
02-09-2004, 09:15 AM
No toys - I am too old for them and no kids (actually no wife too) - so the whole thing might be a bit too expensive for a screening test.
Okay...so you're too old for toys and don't have any kids, but maybe you have some old materials left over from medical school.

Perhaps you have on hand Milton Bradley's "Operation"
http://www.0ne-shop.com/image/687474703a2f2f696d616765732e616d617a6f6e2e636f6d2f 696d616765732f502f423030303030444d464d2e30312e4c5a 5a5a5a5a5a5a2e6a7067/Operation.jpg

Of all the toys out there, this is nothing more but an entertaining continuity tester! But if you don't have one on hand, just forget it. The problem is most likely in that homemade cable. Get a store-bought one and I'm sure your hum & no-left-channel problem will go away.

msrance
02-10-2004, 02:37 AM
The problem is most likely in that homemade cable. Get a store-bought one and I'm sure your hum & no-left-channel problem will go away.

I guess so, The Y cable should be the culprit. I will get myself a better Y cable when I go to a city. Thanks Jeskibuff.

But still do you feel - getting this one tested out - or getting a new one made from some local small time electronics repair chap will not be of any help for the time being - till i can get something better?

Or did I paint too pessimistic a picture of myself? :D

jeskibuff
02-10-2004, 04:37 AM
But still do you feel - getting this one tested out - or getting a new one made from some local small time electronics repair chap will not be of any help for the time being - till i can get something better?The way you describe it (flimsy and homemade) tells me that it's most likely at fault. It's difficult to do a good job soldering such connectors. A precision manufacturing facility will do a much better job, ensuring solid electrical connections, sturdy construction and adequate insulation. Rather than getting another "Y" cable, get one of these type connectors that F1 linked to:
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/274/274-883.jpg
This should last a lifetime and is virtually indestructible. Cables are much more vulnerable to damage (pinching, failure due to flexing, etc.), so if a "Y" cable fails, you have to search for another one. With the connector pictured above, a common RCA cable is the weak point, and they're relatively easy to find in a variety of lengths and quality.

did I paint too pessimistic a picture of myself?Not at all. I trust that my little "normal people" and "medical school tools" comments were taken as just funning with you! :D

Incidentally, there's ONE test that you can make pretty easily. Just flip the RCA connectors going into your Yamaha (left/right). Instead of the left channel humming, I bet the right channel will hum. All that will prove is that the Yamaha is NOT at fault. The problem still could be with the "Y" cable or the adapter. Swapping the connections won't give a definitive answer over which is faulty, but it eliminates one possibility.

msrance
02-11-2004, 03:07 AM
Incidentally, there's ONE test that you can make pretty easily. Just flip the RCA connectors going into your Yamaha (left/right). Instead of the left channel humming, I bet the right channel will hum.

Yes, Jeskibuff, Swapping the RCA connectors just changes the channel that hums. One look at this cable and you'd know - but then I couldnt have thought of getting anything better in a place so desolate and isolated.

I guess, if I can find that Adaptor you refer to , I sure will go for it. Looks like a lifetime bargain.

And yes, All your comments were taken rather sportingly, and I do hope I havent gone around palpating any tender nerves!

I have a Sattelite Radio from worldspace (http://www.worldspace.com) with a reciever in the general category WSSR11 (BPL Celeste model) - but the sound uotput from the sattelite reciever is very less compared to the rest of the components attached to the amplifier. I could find no literature on the gain of the reciever - but could that be the only variable affecting the final sound output or could there be anymore factors that I am overlooking?

jeskibuff
02-11-2004, 07:38 PM
I have a Sattelite Radio from worldspace (http://www.worldspace.com) with a reciever in the general category WSSR11 (BPL Celeste model) - but the sound uotput from the sattelite reciever is very less compared to the rest of the components attached to the amplifier. I could find no literature on the gain of the reciever - but could that be the only variable affecting the final sound output or could there be anymore factors that I am overlooking?
Sorry we overlooked this question when you posted it in your original message...we just got sidetracked on the other issues, that's all! :D

Your receiver has a downloadable manual at http://www.worldspaceradios.co.uk/celeste-manual.pdf. On page 6 it says that the line-out jacks are not adjustable, so they will always be at a level that is lower than your DVD player (unless you can adjust the output level of the DVD player downwards). There was very little to be found specifically about your Yamaha. The most information I found was at http://www.yamahamusic.com.au/main.asp?sec=products, and that didn't say a lot. It's likely that you can't compensate for input level variances, but if you could find your manual, it might tell you how you can. Or maybe someone else has the same (or similar) model. There's not really a problem with the difference in volume, aside from the fact that you have to be careful when switching to the DVD. It would be nice if the Yamaha could compensate for the differences, but you may have to live with it! :(

msrance
02-12-2004, 01:23 AM
Your receiver has a downloadable manual at http://www.worldspaceradios.co.uk/celeste-manual.pdf.

I am amazed at your ability to drill out relevant URLs from obscurity. I checked out on the Worldspace.com website - and couldnt find a relevant download - so I just let it be. Thanks for this one Pal!!


There was very little to be found specifically about your Yamaha. The most information I found was at http://www.yamahamusic.com.au/main.asp?sec=products, and that didn't say a lot. There's not really a problem with the difference in volume, aside from the fact that you have to be careful when switching to the DVD. It would be nice if the Yamaha could compensate for the differences, but you may have to live with it! :(

I guess, You are right - I will have to live with the lack of gain compensation. Actually, the only problem is - as you say - when you switch to DVD from Tuner - the change in volume level is not for the faint of heart !!! Sometimes a guest accidently changes the inputs - and then he's in for a rude shock!! :)

But tell me, do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?

jeskibuff
02-12-2004, 03:44 AM
I am amazed at your ability to drill out relevant URLs from obscurity.Well, as seen earlier in this thread, I missed that Rroar II link even when it was staring me in the face! ;)

do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?No. Your volume control is very able to compensate for the lower signal strength coming out of the satellite receiver. With input gain compensation, you're actually boosting the signal level twice...once as the signal initially enters the preamp's input section, then again with the setting of the main volume control. The only bad thing about a low signal level coming in is the possibility of a higher noise floor. It's nice having a good strong signal coming in, because when you amplify a weak signal, you're actually boosting any noise on that line as well. What I'm saying is that you'd probably get the same output quality whether or not you have gain compensation on the Yamaha.

msrance
02-13-2004, 11:43 AM
Your volume control is very able to compensate for the lower signal strength coming out of the satellite receiver. With input gain compensation, you're actually boosting the signal level twice...once as the signal initially enters the preamp's input section, then again with the setting of the main volume control. The only bad thing about a low signal level coming in is the possibility of a higher noise floor. It's nice having a good strong signal coming in, because when you amplify a weak signal, you're actually boosting any noise on that line as well.

Thanks for that one Jeski !! I seem to know so much more about Audio than I knew a month back.

msrance
02-15-2004, 07:35 PM
Hello again Jeski! I know I am such a bother - but now there's this new problem that I just noticed - with the DIY 8 ohm speakers I was so happy about.
The speakers make an aweful resonating sound when pushed hard - just the LF drivers - that is. I was today playing this pop album (The only pop album I ever bought - but then TATU are barely pop - they are so overtly Popular Rock that I decided to go for them). Anyways - so when pushed close to max the speakers made this godaweful sound - that I can only describe as a flutter - and when I took off the panel to check out the driver state - they were actually fluttering ( like we say in medicine - there are normal heart contractions and then there are flutters - that is when the heart is contracting so fast that is doing nothing useful with the contraction - just harming itself) - so these HF drivers - all 4 of them at 8" were doing nothing worthwhile - but fluttering at an enormous rate and resonating witht he cabinet - and it felt like the whole assembly is gonna fall to pieces any moment now - but when pulled back to a decent volume they became alright - next time I did an experiment with it again - and this time - they started giving way earlier than the previous attempt.
Whats with this buddy? and how do I handle this? apart from the evident way of not pushing the volume too hard.

jeskibuff
02-15-2004, 08:45 PM
do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?Oops...I think I mis-read this question when I first replied to you. Yes, incoming signal strength (off the satellite) probably WILL affect the sound quality. I don't know much about satellite reception, but if it's digital, you may get dropouts on a weak signal and if it's analog, you should get noise and/or distortion. Sorry that my earlier response may have been off-base!

when pushed close to max the speakers made this godaweful sound - that I can only describe as a flutterThis sounds to me like the drivers can't handle the volume, especially with low frequencies. The Yamaha's telling them what to do, but they don't have the ability to respond properly. Being DIY speakers, this could be just inadequate design. If you could "roll-off" the bass level to just these speakers, that would probably help, but I imagine the Yamaha doesn't have that flexibility. A possible solution would be to put a capacitor in series with those speakers. That would pass only the higher frequencies and block the low ones. You'd still get the low frequencies from your "A" speakers and sub.

Anyway...that's just my "guess". Perhaps some others will have some other ideas about what's wrong.

kspv
04-04-2004, 06:38 AM
I have the same problem as yours with respect to the line-out volume of the BPL Celeste Worldspace receiver, which I use with a Yamaha AX-396 amplifier and Lithos Studio-1 monitor speakers (www.lithosindia.com). I observed that the satellite radio signals are inherently low in volume, and have about 40% lesss volume than even the normal FM radio signals, which I receive through the same tuner. Therefore, the problem may not be with the line out volume of the Celeste itself, because the FM and cassette sections of the same tuner are seen to deliver normal output. I even tried connection the tuner to the "phono" input of the Yamaha AX-396, as the phono input is more sensitive than other inputs in an amp (as the output of a turntable is much less than any other audio equipment), but this resulted in very high input volume and distortion.

Roar-II is a powered subwoofer of Sonodyne which is critically acclaimed, and therefore should not create any problems to your Yamaha AX-596. The problem may be the Sonus floorstanders demanding too much power at higher volumes from the Yamaha (in which case I suggest you buy speakers with higher impedence, lower wattage and higher sensitivity), or simply the + & - of the speaker cables may be shorting somewhere. The resistor method may actually deteriorate the sound quality, and therefore I do not advice it