Why is this section so dead, when computers are so awesome?

[Mike Anderson]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.

It's really a shame so many people have come to equate computer-based music with crappy 128k MP3's being played through $10 earbuds or 3" computer speakers...

If more people knew what's possible, the market for quality products would just explode.

[L.J.]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.

It's really a shame so many people have come to equate computer-based music with crappy 128k MP3's being played through $10 earbuds or 3" computer speakers...

If more people knew what's possible, the market for quality products would just explode.

Hi Mike,

You're right. I've never even looked in this thread before. I got about 3000 downloaded songs and I'm about to backup some of my CD collection onto my hard drive for simple playback of my music. I have some Boston Acoustic computer speakers that sound pretty nice, even when I'm playng 128k mp3's. I love music so I'm happy no matter how I'm listen' to it. Nothing fancy, but it's good enough for my needs.

[bacchanal]

While I was at school my computer was my audio system. Once I got a real audio system, I sort of stopped listening on my computer...until a couple of months ago. I got some decent powered monitors to use as speakers, and that really made me go back to the computer a bit more. I also got turned on to last.fm, a really addictive site that tracks your listening habits. That and the wife got an ipod, so I was forced to tag and organize our mp3 library.

Eventually I'll do the whole HTPC thing and set up a wireless network so I can listen to mp3s through my real system, but I've always been a "whole album" kind of guy, so cds or lps are just fine with me for the time being. Actually I'd probably do it today if I could decide on a good format to keep my library in. Right now it is 192-256kb mp3. I would like to do FLAC or SHN, but ipods won't play either. I'm kind of opposed to AAC...for the same reasons I'm opposed to WMAs. Good ol' WAV may be the way to go, but for now storage is still a little too expensive, and transfer speeds could stand to improve a little. Just think, in a couple years an all WAV library with about a terabyte of storage won't be out of the question (well, you could do it easily today if you wanted to throw money at something like that).

I'm not sure I like what the digital audio player is doing to commercial music, but then again I don't really like commercial music. The next few years will be interesting as digital audio players start to come down to "walkman" prices.

[Mike Anderson]

^^^ I've burned everything in FLAC. For my iPod, I just ran a Perl script (flac2mp3) that automatically creates a mirror directory of my FLAC files in MP3 form.

I picked up a LaCie 500GB external hard drive, so I've got plenty of space. It holds an ungodly amount of music.

I run it all into a Squeezebox:

http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

This thing is AWESOME. I can access any song instantly from a remote control without getting out of my chair I don't even have to go near a computer; it even streams wirelessly. It also hooks up to Internet radio seamlessly.

By itself, this thing sounds great. But I made it even better by running the digital output into a Benchmark DAC1.

Now I have true audiophile quality sound, with mindblowing convenience.

People are spending many thousands of dollars on hi-end CD players and transports to get the kind of sound quality I have, and they don't have the convenience and power of a computer-based system that I've put together for a fraction of the price.

I don't get it...

[ericl]

i don't think people have caught on yet. Despite the fact that we're all hanging out in an internet forum, this generally is not a computer savvy bunch. They associate computer audio with highly compressed, lossy MP3's, bad internal sound cards, etc.

Me, I'm all over it. I have an M-Audio Audiophile USB soundcard, an Airport Express, and a Squeezbox in for review. I am sold on computer audio. I don't listen to my vinyl anymore..

[E-Stat]

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.
I have enjoyed ripping all my CDs to my computer for listening while working. I end up hearing a number of otherwise lost jewels. I think computer based systems are the wave of the future.

rw

[noddin0ff]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

I think it will eventually take hold. It keeps taking less and less computer savvy to get it all together. I think the main reasons computer audio slown in coming are

1) Cost per unit storage is still pretty high for the serious music fan. Hard drives still have to get larger and more affordable before I can get all my CD's on one box at acceptable resolution (and then I need a backup as well so I don't have to re-rip them-and hard drives WILL fail).

2) Most people don’t realize how easy and effective adding a second hard drive is these days.

2) Most people don't enjoy understanding formats (WAV, AIFF, MP3, FLAC, WMF, AAC)

3) Most people don’t enjoy understanding digital connectivity. And even those that do often have a hard time accepting that bits are bits EVEN when the bits code for MUSIC.

3) Copy protection is a mess. It's impossible to keep up on, hard to understand, and comes in too many forms. The computer savvy tended to hunt for free music and still hold out hopes for finding some.

4) Piracy really killed the incentives to make user-friendly software and this stalled progress. Apple got control of piracy by offering reasonable copy protection at a reasonable price and look what took off! I still need an iPod.

5) Microsoft has never ever created anything that was intuitive and Microsoft still runs most computers. And most home computer users I know can’t even keep their Windows systems up and running free of viruses and crashes for long enough to entrust the hours of effort it takes to get the music in it.

6) Music labels don’t want music on your hard drive under your control because there are too many people out there who don’t want to pay for music. I like the way you’re doing it. Get a good DAC and pump everything through it. But, you still can’t get high-res sources. hmmmm.

[bacchanal]

1) Cost per unit storage is still pretty high for the serious music fan. Hard drives still have to get larger and more affordable before I can get all my CD's on one box at acceptable resolution (and then I need a backup as well so I don't have to re-rip them-and hard drives WILL fail).

HDD prices will continue to go down but at newegg.com you can buy 2 250GB Seagates for $108ea. Those drives come with a 5yr warrantee, and I have an 8yr. old Seagate that I still use (backed up of course).

Assuming you're storing your music in WAV at about 60mb a song/15 songs per album, you could store around 500 albums (taking into account that an advertised Gb isn't an actual Gb). Obviously if you store music in a compressed format (lossless or lossy) you could store significantly more.

It is possible that you'd have to buy a new power supply and an extra fan for best performance with the extra drives.


4) Piracy really killed the incentives to make user-friendly software and this stalled progress. Apple got control of piracy by offering reasonable copy protection at a reasonable price and look what took off! I still need an iPod.

I think apple's success has to do with marketing and product design. The sale of downloadable music came second. That, and your average person just wants that 'one song'. For people who buy albums, buying downloadable music is retarded at the current prices.


5) Microsoft has never ever created anything that was intuitive and Microsoft still runs most computers. And most home computer users I know can’t even keep their Windows systems up and running free of viruses and crashes for long enough to entrust the hours of effort it takes to get the music in it.


This is interesting, because if Windows hadn't been around Napster and P2P wouldn't have had the platform to create a huge digital media push. I just don't see the whole mp3 thing emerging as it did if OS9 or Linux were the dominant OS of the time. (Interestingly enough, you can actually get more functionality out of an iPod on Windows than you can on OSX) The mp3 player wouldn't have caught on (at least not so quickly) without P2P. The average windows user may not know anything about how to secure the OS, but I'm pretty sure the average user knows how to download, rip, burn, and listen.

[L.J.]

Can I ask a question, if you guys don't mind? Is there a safe way to run sound from my laptop to my AVR? My laptop is a HP pavilion zv5000

You guys seem to know alot about computers and what not. I took a few classes awhile back, but it was PC repair and upgrading.

[noddin0ff]

Can I ask a question, if you guys don't mind? Is there a safe way to run sound from my laptop to my AVR? My laptop is a HP pavilion zv5000.

You guys seem to know alot about computers and what not. I took a few classes awhile back, but it was PC repair and upgrading.

Safe? There shouldn't be any concern really. I don't know anything about soundcards upgrades and laptops but...

The simple way to connect is to run the the headphone out to a Y-adaptor that has RCA plugs. A couple bucks at Radio Shack and you're good to go. I tend to keep the volume on the laptop at about 80% for good results.

Another option is to use the USB port to output to an external DAC that has RCA jacks. I'm a big fan of the $40 Griffin iMic (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic2/index.php). It works with PC and Mac. I have one old laptop hooked up this way to A Cambridge Integrated 540A and love it. Been running essentially as dedicated a music server for over a year...from an external 80Gig hardrive hooked up to the laptop via firewire.

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express (http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/) for a while (also PC compatible). You need to run iTunes though. It's a wireless hub that accepts wireless streams from iTunes on your laptop and has both a digital out and analog out via a mini-jack (I haven't seen one first hand and don't get how the optical digital connection works). It also provides wireless internet and can network with existing wireless routers. The digital out would let you stream to a good DAC or your digital in on the receiver. The specs for the Airport Express say its optical digital. In my dreams I buy a dedicated DAC and several hard drives and go wireless. Then squeeze in a head phone amp.

[noddin0ff]

HDD prices will continue to go down...
Yes, I've done the math. Prices are almost there for me!


I think apple's success has to do with marketing and product design. The sale of downloadable music came second. That, and your average person just wants that 'one song'. For people who buy albums, buying downloadable music is retarded at the current prices. I agree. Although, I think the prices are fine, just not the quality. If they offered lossless at those prices, I'd probably purchase online even with copy restrictions. But what I really ment to suggest was that the iTunes music store was a success because they had accceptable compromise copy restrictions. You can burn copies of the music you buy to multiple CD's, you can share your music over a network to a reasonable number of computers, and you can play other music formats with the hardware/software. At the time other services were far more draconian. I still don't like that Apple's AAC format is proprietary to iTunes and iPods but at least they license their players.


This is interesting, because if Windows hadn't been around Napster and P2P wouldn't have had the platform to create a huge digital media push. I just don't see the whole mp3 thing emerging as it did if OS9 or Linux were the dominant OS of the time. (Interestingly enough, you can actually get more functionality out of an iPod on Windows than you can on OSX) The mp3 player wouldn't have caught on (at least not so quickly) without P2P. The average windows user may not know anything about how to secure the OS, but I'm pretty sure the average user knows how to download, rip, burn, and listen.

Well, Napster and P2P weren't invented by Microsoft and I'd think that they would've happened regardless of the dominant OS. And I do admit Microsoft provides tons of functionality in their products if you can find it. Apple tends for forgo including every last feature for simplicity and on the whole that works. But sometimes it is limiting. Just about every intuitive user interface found in Windows is copied or aquired from others. Netscape, Yahoo, Napster, Google, Apple, AOL...). Windows is dominant but playing catch up. If the system had been easier to use and stable earlier digital media would be well established by now.

And talk about style with no substance... this
PlaysForSure (http://www.playsforsure.com/WhatIsPlaysForSure.aspx) is just a typical non-innovation. The sole purpose is to make sure MediaPlayer (and all it's draconian copy restrictions) dominates.

[Mike Anderson]

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express (http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/) for a while (also PC compatible).

You should definitely check out the Squeezebox then:

http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

It doesn't have the multi-functionality of the Airport Express, but for music, it's a much more powerful product. It also has far better sound, if you're going to use the analog outs.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Mike, I'd been slow to look into when it was brought up before.

Very interesting product. It looks like it has digital outputs if someone like yourself had a nice DAC. Something I didn't appreciate before, and maybe you can confirm... the box sits by the stereo, the remote control runs the box and navigates your playlists, but it accesses the libraries on hardrives wirelessly over the network? That's a feature that trumps Airport Express. And it works with existing iTunes libraries...hmmm.

That does indeed rock!

And I see a 'wake on LAN' function. That means if your computer is asleep and you activate Squeezebox, it wakes your computer over the wireless network and your computer starts serving?

[L.J.]

Safe? There shouldn't be any concern really. I don't know anything about soundcards upgrades and laptops but...

The simple way to connect is to run the the headphone out to a Y-adaptor that has RCA plugs. A couple bucks at Radio Shack and you're good to go. I tend to keep the volume on the laptop at about 80% for good results.

Another option is to use the USB port to output to an external DAC that has RCA jacks. I'm a big fan of the $40 Griffin iMic (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic2/index.php). It works with PC and Mac. I have one old laptop hooked up this way to A Cambridge Integrated 540A and love it. Been running essentially as dedicated a music server for over a year...from an external 80Gig hardrive hooked up to the laptop via firewire.

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express (http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/) for a while (also PC compatible). You need to run iTunes though. It's a wireless hub that accepts wireless streams from iTunes on your laptop and has both a digital out and analog out via a mini-jack (I haven't seen one first hand and don't get how the optical digital connection works). It also provides wireless internet and can network with existing wireless routers. The digital out would let you stream to a good DAC or your digital in on the receiver. The specs for the Airport Express say its optical digital. In my dreams I buy a dedicated DAC and several hard drives and go wireless. Then squeeze in a head phone amp.

Thanks Nod, that's what I'm talking about. The iMic sounds like a very excellent temp solution until I can go wireless.

Your using this with MP3's right? Does it improve the sound of 128K MP3's at all?
I can also convert my cassette tapes to CD with this right, I mean it comes with everything I would need for this?

[ericl]

I have an airport express, and I think it's great. Check out the review:

http://audioreview.com/Airportcrx.aspx

I mentioned some kinks with audio dropouts, but I have since ironed those out. I should update the review. For good quality, you MUST use the digital output instead of the analog.

I got a squeezebox for review last week. It's analog output is awesome, it has way more features including a remote, but it's not as easy to use as the APX. It's got loads of potential, but it also has some bugs to work out (I used to be a software tester so I am pretty harsh on software defects and find them intolerable). Expect a review in the next month or two.

[Mike Anderson]

It looks like it has digital outputs if someone like yourself had a nice DAC. Something I didn't appreciate before, and maybe you can confirm... the box sits by the stereo, the remote control runs the box and navigates your playlists, but it accesses the libraries on hardrives wirelessly over the network? That's a feature that trumps Airport Express. And it works with existing iTunes libraries...hmmm.

That does indeed rock!

And I see a 'wake on LAN' function. That means if your computer is asleep and you activate Squeezebox, it wakes your computer over the wireless network and your computer starts serving?

Yes to all. You can also control it from your computer, which is nice if you like to sit in your listening space with a laptop, like I do.

I'm running mine into a Benchmark DAC1, using the balanced outputs of the DAC1 into a 100% balanced pre-amp; it totally rules. But I was also very impressed with the analog outs.

[bacchanal]

PlaysForSure (http://www.playsforsure.com/WhatIsPlaysForSure.aspx) is just a typical non-innovation. The sole purpose is to make sure MediaPlayer (and all it's draconian copy restrictions) dominates.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft's marketing or anyone's marketing for that matter but I think this just means that windows will have the driver to run the device when it is plugged in. Apple doesn't have to worry about this, because their software model is much more proprietary (one reason there aren't as many third party devices for a mac). Though apple is getting better, esp with the switch to intel processors. From a hardware standpoint apple is becoming much like a PC. The day will come when you can run OSX on a PC and Windows on a Mac. Anyway, WMP10 in itself is a nice piece of software, with very good plugin support. I'm not sure what you mean by it's copy restrictions...unless you're talking about WMA.

I just can't deal with the idea that you can't copy from an iPod to a Mac. That and the whole bundle Quicktime with iTunes thing, so you force all the QT Pro owners to upgrade for $30 every year. I'm not a big fan of iTunes obviously. It's not the worst software in the world, but it doesn't impress me all that much. EphPod or something like that adds significant functionality.

Either way, I'm all about open source software. I hardly pay for any software (besides the OS), it seems like there is a free alternative to just about anything. Linux is the best platform for open source, but Windows isn't bad either. Apple is okay, but their systems are just too locked down for me.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Nod, that's what I'm talking about. The iMic sounds like a very excellent temp solution until I can go wireless.

Your using this with MP3's right? Does it improve the sound of 128K MP3's at all?
I can also convert my cassette tapes to CD with this right, I mean it comes with everything I would need for this?

Improve? Hard to say. They don't give the specs on the DAC either. Its probalby safe to say the DAC is better than the standard on board DAC. The claim is that an outboard DAC eliminates the noise from internal electronics. Whopping differences. No. But I do think the iMic is a modest improvement over my Powerbook headphone jack. I find it more convenient too. I think 128K is terminally flawed so I don't go there...

For recording. I haven't tried it. It is complete as far as hardware goes. It just runs in reverse. You need the software.

[noddin0ff]

I have an airport express, and I think it's great. *snip*

I mentioned some kinks with audio dropouts, but I have since ironed those out. I should update the review. For good quality, you MUST use the digital output instead of the analog.

I got a squeezebox for review last week. It's analog output is awesome, it has way more features including a remote, but it's not as easy to use as the APX. It's got loads of potential, but it also has some bugs to work out (I used to be a software tester so I am pretty harsh on software defects and find them intolerable). Expect a review in the next month or two.

Thanks ericl- The reports of dropouts, and not just from you, were a big reason I've held off on the APX. What was the fix? Looking forward to the review! ...I think I can wait!


Yes to all. You can also control it from your computer, which is nice if you like to sit in your listening space with a laptop, like I do.

I'm running mine into a Benchmark DAC1, using the balanced outputs of the DAC1 into a 100% balanced pre-amp; it totally rules. But I was also very impressed with the analog outs.
hmmmm.... I wanna be like Mike!

[L.J.]

I think 128K is terminally flawed so I don't go there...

Is your music in MP3 format? What do you recommend?

Most of my downloaded music didn't cost a cent, so I'm not complaining.

[noddin0ff]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft's marketing or anyone's marketing for that matter but I think this just means that windows will have the driver to run the device when it is plugged in. Apple doesn't have to worry about this, because their software model is much more proprietary (one reason there aren't as many third party devices for a mac). Though apple is getting better, esp with the switch to intel processors. From a hardware standpoint apple is becoming much like a PC. The day will come when you can run OSX on a PC and Windows on a Mac. Anyway, WMP10 in itself is a nice piece of software, with very good plugin support. I'm not sure what you mean by it's copy restrictions...unless you're talking about WMA.

I just can't deal with the idea that you can't copy from an iPod to a Mac. That and the whole bundle Quicktime with iTunes thing, so you force all the QT Pro owners to upgrade for $30 every year. I'm not a big fan of iTunes obviously. It's not the worst software in the world, but it doesn't impress me all that much. EphPod or something like that adds significant functionality.

Either way, I'm all about open source software. I hardly pay for any software (besides the OS), it seems like there is a free alternative to just about anything. Linux is the best platform for open source, but Windows isn't bad either. Apple is okay, but their systems are just too locked down for me.
All good points!

[noddin0ff]

Is your music in MP3 format? What do you recommend?

Most of my downloaded music didn't cost a cent, so I'm not complaining.

I pretty much just use iTunes so everything is in AAC. I had read that AAC was a bit better than MP3 but I couldn't say forsure myself. I didn't really give it much thought until AFTER I ripped my collection (about 60Gig @ 192kbs = 737 albums,9048 songs). I really don't want to repeat that process until I'm sure I can do it correctly. Next time I rip, it will all be lossless compression. That way I can view it as archival. That's why I want to be able to back it up too. During the ripping process I found a few older CD's that had just gone bad and weren't playable anymore.

I figure 192 is minimal for general uses in work environments, or small headphones/earbuds; most people seem to feel bitrates in the high 200's to 300's are near CD quality. But I kind of figure if your compressing in the 300's you might get a 5-fold reduction in file size whereas lossless will give you about 3-fold. Seems a pretty minor difference, why not do lossless.

I'd definately do an open source format next time. I suppose that means FLAC.

[noddin0ff]

....to ramble on....

I spent a long long long time ripping so I wouldn't have to bring CD's into work. When I started I didn't really appreciate what a cool thing music on a hard drive could be. But I slowly got addicted. Now I have this terrific library of everything I own that I can duplicate, carry around (well it's a external hardrive, not an iPod) and use. But...it sounds like crap on my home system because it's compressed. So its no use at home. At home I have piles of the last 20 CD's all over my stereo and a closet that could be used for other things than CD storage. As for versatility, I'm limited to the 5-CD shuffle provided I can find the disks that I forgot to reshelve in alphabetical order, by genre, or I'll never find them again... I like buying CDs and will continue to do so but the closet is annoying.

So, advice... If you can afford it, lossless, external hard drive. Lossless so I can regenerate CD's if needed. I buy hard drives and the enclosures separately. That way I can upgrade or swap out hard drives as the next faster bigger one comes along and still have the older one around for backup/archive. I'm not made of money so I'm waiting for the Gigabytes to become more affordable... 600MB/CD X 740CDs and counting = at least 450G and ~$280-$350 depending on the manufacturer + ~$60 for an enclosure... add $100 to $300 for a wireless network to the receiver. Voila! Maybe consider getting a old laptop computer (a PC?) to run it because it really doesn't take the latest processor to do this...~$400? I have an Apple G3 500MHz (2000AD) that runs my stereo at work and shares over the network with 2-4 other listeners at times and it keeps up fine.

[L.J.]

I pretty much just use iTunes so everything is in AAC. I had read that AAC was a bit better than MP3 but I couldn't say forsure myself. I didn't really give it much thought until AFTER I ripped my collection (about 60Gig @ 192kbs = 737 albums,9048 songs). I really don't want to repeat that process until I'm sure I can do it correctly. Next time I rip, it will all be lossless compression. That way I can view it as archival. That's why I want to be able to back it up too. During the ripping process I found a few older CD's that had just gone bad and weren't playable anymore.

I figure 192 is minimal for general uses in noisy environments, most people seem to feel bitrates in the high 200's to 300's are near CD quality. But I kind of figure if your compressing in the 300's you might get a 5-fold reduction in file size whereas lossless will give you about 3-fold. Seems a pretty minor difference, why not do lossless.

I'd definately do an open source format next time. I suppose that means FLAC.

Thanks Nod. You kinda lost me abit with all that format talk, but oh well. I'm currently using WMP and I also have Real player and iTunes. I will give the iTunes a try and see for myself if it sounds better. I have learned alot from this one thread. The airport express and squeeze box seem to be great products. I will have to look into it more when I get a little extra cash. I surely can drop 40 bucks on that iMic for the time being, though. I still have a couple hundred cassette tapes laying around. The hard part is gonna be ripping my 200+ CD's onto my laptop. I couldn't imagine doing over 700 :eek: .

[ericl]

Thanks ericl- The reports of dropouts, and not just from you, were a big reason I've held off on the APX. What was the fix?

One of the fixes was configuring all devices on my network to run at the 802.11B speed, and all on the same channel. I seem to recall doing a couple other little tweaks to my network, but now I can't recall what they are.

AH, one thing I now do is keep the source computer tethered to it's internet connection with an ethernet cable, instead of doing it wirelessly. Many wifi router also have switches in them, meaning you can bypass the wireless and just connect to the internet the old way, with an ethernet cable. THe computer is still on the wireless network though, because it's connected to the wireless router.

This has the effect of reducing wireless traffic. Instead of slinging data across the wireless network twice (computer wireless ~~> router ~~>APX) it does it just once (computer ethernet -> router ~~> APX). Wireless traffic is halved, and your chances of dropouts are too. If you stream radio to your APX as i do, this is crucial, because then the path(i believe) goes like this: (router~~>computer~~>router~~>APX) that's three trips across the network!

Hope this makes a little sense. I need to diagram it.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Nod. You kinda lost me abit with all that format talk, but oh well.
I struggle to keep up too. These are the ones I'm can name but it is far from a complete list. Hopefully someone will correct any mistakes.

Lossy compression discards information to save space. You pick your compression rate 128kbps, 192, 225... and amount of loss.
-MP3 is one of the first compression formats that took hold and I don't think is proprietary but I could be wrong. (If not that would mean that any legal software that uses MP3 would have to pay a licensing fee to included it).
-AAC is Apples proprietary version of MP3. It's a different algorathim that only iTunes uses.
-WMF is Windows version of MP3. Again different and proprietary.

Lossless compression - no information is discarded. I think they all generally compress about the same degree. It's more a matter of whose algorithm does the compression and decompression faster.
-ALE is Apples Lossless encoder (haven't used)
-FLAC is an open source lossless compressor. Free! Getting popular.

Non-compressed - for all practical purposes an exact copy of the CD. Pretty much just copying a file to your harddrive from the CD
-AIFF is Apples non-compressed format.
-WAV is the PC non-compressed format.

[noddin0ff]

One of the fixes was configuring all devices on my network to run at the 802.11B speed, and all on the same channel. I seem to recall doing a couple other little tweaks to my network, but now I can't recall what they are.

AH, one thing I now do is keep the source computer tethered to it's internet connection with an ethernet cable, instead of doing it wirelessly. Many wifi router also have switches in them, meaning you can bypass the wireless and just connect to the internet the old way, with an ethernet cable. THe computer is still on the wireless network though, because it's connected to the wireless router.

This has the effect of reducing wireless traffic. Instead of slinging data across the wireless network twice (computer wireless ~~> router ~~>APX) it does it just once (computer ethernet -> router ~~> APX). Wireless traffic is halved, and your chances of dropouts are too. If you stream radio to your APX as i do, this is crucial, because then the path(i believe) goes like this: (router~~>computer~~>router~~>APX) that's three trips across the network!

Hope this makes a little sense. I need to diagram it.

....brain....straining.... I think I get it. Network is not something I understand. I thought the APX was also a router? I have a wireless router (Airport) fed from my cable modem and all wireless laptops. If I added an APX would there be a problem? Maybe the APX needs to be closest to the computer? Maybe the problem is when your computer is closest to the router, then it takes over the data and forwards it to the APX? In my current setup, if I added an APX it would be about 5 feet from the Airport hub.

[L.J.]

I struggle to keep up too. These are the ones I'm can name but it is far from a complete list. Hopefully someone will correct any mistakes.

Lossy compression discards information to save space. You pick your compression rate 128kbps, 192, 225... and amount of loss.
-MP3 is one of the first compression formats that took hold and I don't think is proprietary but I could be wrong. (If not that would mean that any legal software that uses MP3 would have to pay a licensing fee to included it).
-AAC is Apples proprietary version of MP3. It's a different algorathim that only iTunes uses.
-WMF is Windows version of MP3. Again different and proprietary.

Lossless compression - no information is discarded. I think they all generally compress about the same degree. It's more a matter of whose algorithm does the compression and decompression faster.
-ALE is Apples Lossless encoder (haven't used)
-FLAC is an open source lossless compressor. Free! Getting popular.

Non-compressed - for all practical purposes an exact copy of the CD. Pretty much just copying a file to your harddrive from the CD
-AIFF is Apples non-compressed format.
-WAV is the PC non-compressed format.

So once this info is lost, is it gone for good? I ask because there is software that can convert lets say a MP3 file into WAV. Is this having any effect on the sound?

Wave takes up alot of space so I guess thats not a good idea unless you have a huge HD.

The FLAC, can this be compared to WAV as far as taking up huge amounts of space?

Can MP3 be converted into any of these formats, but with improved sound? Or maybe I should say, will converting an MP3 to one of these formats improve the sound?

Hope these ? makes sense. I kinda asked the same thing in 10 different way.

[Mike Anderson]

You generally get roughly 2-to-1 compression going from WAV to FLAC.

If you're doing MP3's, you should be using the latest beta of LAME -- I think it's 3.97b2 -- which allows for "variable bit encoding". This algorithm figures out what parts of the song require more bits, and is hence more efficient at getting good quality for a given amount of space. You can get very good encoding for a little over 200kbps, on average.

[Mike Anderson]

Can MP3 be converted into any of these formats, but with improved sound? Or maybe I should say, will converting an MP3 to one of these formats improve the sound?

Not that I'm aware of. I think once you compress with loss of information, you can never get it back.

On the other hand, if you start with lossless compression (e.g. FLAC), you can always convert to MP3 and compress further.

I ripped my entire CD collection in FLAC, for home listening. I then used a Perl scrip (flac2mp3)t to make a mirror directory in MP3, for my iPod.

[L.J.]

Is all this software free?

[bloosqr]

I have an airport express, and I think it's great. Check out the review:

http://audioreview.com/Airportcrx.aspx

I mentioned some kinks with audio dropouts, but I have since ironed those out. I should update the review. For good quality, you MUST use the digital output instead of the analog.

I got a squeezebox for review last week. It's analog output is awesome, it has way more features including a remote, but it's not as easy to use as the APX. It's got loads of potential, but it also has some bugs to work out (I used to be a software tester so I am pretty harsh on software defects and find them intolerable). Expect a review in the next month or two.
How did you work out your kinks? My original fix was to prevent the double bounce (i.e. desktop->laptop->airport express) using a remote program called tuneconnect. As I find using the itunes w/ the share so convenient many times I didn't really like that fix.The next fix that really did the trick was to glue my network on just (g) rather than b/g. That actually fixed all the drop out issues. Finally, w/ the 1/3/06 firmware update everything now just works everything is set to b/g.

[Mike Anderson]

Is all this software free?

LAME and FLAC are free.

[noddin0ff]

So once this info is lost, is it gone for good? I ask because there is software that can convert lets say a MP3 file into WAV. Is this having any effect on the sound?
Yep, gone, daddy, gone. the love is gone. You can convert to WAV but it wouldn't be the same as ripping from CD to WAV.


Wave takes up alot of space so I guess thats not a good idea unless you have a huge HD.Yes. An audio CD holds about 700MB (WAV or AIFF) which is something like 74 minutes of music. 1GB = ~100 minutes in WAV format.


The FLAC, can this be compared to WAV as far as taking up huge amounts of space? kind of. There is still compression but no data is lost. It's kind of like running Stuffit or WinZip on a file. You typically can compress about 3-4 fold without losing data. So that 74 minute CD could squeeze down to 300Mb with no loss in quality. You could also back-convert the file and reproduce the CD exactly.


Can MP3 be converted into any of these formats, but with improved sound? Or maybe I should say, will converting an MP3 to one of these formats improve the sound? No. Loss is one way.


Hope these ? makes sense. I kinda asked the same thing in 10 different way.Perfect sense!


edit: oops walked away before posting. I see Mike had some solid answers for you!

[L.J.]

So I should rip my CD collection to my HD in the FLAC format, right? It's better than mp3 because there is no loss, and does not take as much space as WAV since it's compressed.


And what exactly does the LAME software do?

[Mike Anderson]

So I should rip my CD collection to my HD in the FLAC format, right? It's better than mp3 because there is no loss, and does not take as much space as WAV since it's compressed.

Yes, FLAC or some other lossless compression. FLAC is nice because it's open source. Apple lossless and Windows lossless are proprietary.



And what exactly does the LAME software do?


It's one (of many) ways to compress to MP3.

[L.J.]

It's one (of many) ways to compress to MP3.

Ok so I would use a lossless format such as WAV or FLAC and then use the LAME to compress it to MP3 without loss, for less space on my HD :confused:

[noddin0ff]

Nope. Any conversion to a lossy format (MP3) results in loss regardless of how it got there. LAME is one of several applications that will make MP3 files.

What Mike does is use lossless FLAC compression to create big (but still smaller than WAVE files) perfect quality files of his tunes on a hard drive where he has lots of space... But then he creates a second, redundant library in MP3 format that he puts on his iPod (or whatever) where there is less space and quality is less important.

[ericl]

How did you work out your kinks? My original fix was to prevent the double bounce (i.e. desktop->laptop->airport express) using a remote program called tuneconnect. As I find using the itunes w/ the share so convenient many times I didn't really like that fix.The next fix that really did the trick was to glue my network on just (g) rather than b/g. That actually fixed all the drop out issues. Finally, w/ the 1/3/06 firmware update everything now just works everything is set to b/g.

check out post #25 in this thread, i talk about the same things you mention

[L.J.]

Gotcha!

Thanks Guys! For taking the time to break it down for me. I learn so much here.

[L.J.]

One more ? guys. Can music be downloaded in a lossless or non compressed format?

[Mike Anderson]

One more ? guys. Can music be downloaded in a lossless or non compressed format?

Rarely. For example, the iTunes store doesn't do it.

However, the Internet Music Archive has lots of lossless compressed music - and it's free! Check it out:

http://www.archive.org/details/audio

[bacchanal]

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but a good thing to consider if you're thinking about storing several hundred albums worth of music is a RAID array.

RAID as defined by webopedia

(rād) Short for Redundant Array of Independent (or Inexpensive) Disks, a category of disk drives that employ two or more drives in combination for fault tolerance and performance. RAID disk drives are used frequently on servers but aren't generally necessary for personal computers.

Basically you use more than one drive to get more performance or data security. Many of today's motherboards support this technology, but a RAID add on card (controller) can be bought for less than $100.

RAID requires equally sized hard drives (preferrably the same model). Actually it's not required, but the array is based on the smallest size drive in the array.

The obvious disadvantage to RAID is that you generally have to buy multiple drives to get the same amount of storage. The advantage (depending on the mode used) is greater performance or more importantly in this case is data protection if a hard drive fails.

The basic RAID modes that would be ideal for music storage would be

RAID 1 (mirroring) - This mode uses two drives. One is simply a mirror of the other. The amount of storage in the array is equal to that of the smallest drive, there is no performance gain or hit. If one drive fails, it can be replaced while the other still holds the data.

RAID 0+1 (striping + mirroring) - This mode requires four drives, and adds a mirroring array to a two striping arrays for a slight performance increase with mirroring. Storage space is equal to 2 X the smallest drive in the array. (RAID 10 is basically the same thing as this, it adds a striping array to two mirroring arrays)

RAID 5 - (striping with fault tolerance) - This mode is similar to 0+1, but it uses three drives. Storage space is equal to 2X the smallest drive in the array.

It really isn't much harder to set up a RAID array than it is to simply install a single hard drive. There is plenty of info on the net about how exactly to do this. I would recommend RAID 1. You can use a controller card to create multiple RAID arrays.

Avoid RAID 0 (striping), which doubles your risk of HDD failure (uses two drives as one and has a 1:1 storage ratio), but adds a slight performance increase.

Just something to look into for those planning to store massive libraries!

[noddin0ff]

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but a good thing to consider if you're thinking about storing several hundred albums worth of music is a RAID array.

*snip*

Basically you use more than one drive to get more performance or data security. Many of today's motherboards support this technology, but a RAID add on card (controller) can be bought for less than $100.

I was wondering about this. We have only laptops at our home so there's no room for internal drives. Its there a cheap firewire/IEEE 1394 solution? It didn't escape me that 2x250G drives are cheaper than 1x500G!

[Mike Anderson]

I've just been backing everything up on Taiyo Yuden DVD's.

[bacchanal]

I was wondering about this. We have only laptops at our home so there's no room for internal drives. Its there a cheap firewire/IEEE 1394 solution? It didn't escape me that 2x250G drives are cheaper than 1x500G!

As far as I know RAID is pretty much limited to workstations. It is more of a server type technology, so there probably isn't much RIAD support in the mobile world. There are multiple drive enclosures, but cheap isn't the word. This is the type of thing you'd be considering if you'd be willing to spend a bit more to get more data security. Especially if you're building an HTPC or a dedicated music server.

I can see why you think storage is expensive if you're using external drives. If you're serious about storing your library, I would consider building a server sometime in the future.

As far as using DVDs to backup music, recordable disks have a finite lifetime just like HDDs. It is much easier to keep redundant copies of one or two large HDDs, than keeping up with the health status of your DVD backup library. However, inexpensive and convenient DVDs are.

[noddin0ff]

I did a little searching and found an external2-drive RAID enclosure (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MEFW912AL2/) It's not so much more expensive than a normal enclosure, certainly less than 2 enclosures. That's probably the way I'll go when drives drop a little bit more in price. I didn't realize you could configure them to maintain backups. That's a plus.

I started to go the DVD backup route and on the forth DVD' (Chucho Valdez -> Dixie Chicks) I figured that it was too much hassle and stopped.

[Mike Anderson]

I know people talk about how CDs etc have a finite life span, but I've never actually had one go bad, and I have some I burned years and years ago.

The Taiyo Yuden DVDs are supposed to be archival quality, and once I burn them I don't touch them, I just store them in a cool dry place.

The other thing is that I live in earthquake country. I like to give my DVD backups to a friend to store, on the logic that it's less likely both our houses will be utterly destroyed. Even a RAID setup won't do much good if your house goes down.

[L.J.]

Trying to download and install FLAC. I gotta message saying I need to download Winamp 2 or 5 to play Flac files. Do I need to go with this or can I use a player I already have installed(Real, iTunes or WMP). Thanks

[Mike Anderson]

iTunes won't play FLAC. Not sure about RealPlayer or WMP, but I doubt it.

Use Winamp or foobar2000. If you use Winamp, you'll have to download the FLAC plug-in too, I think.

[L.J.]

iTunes won't play FLAC. Not sure about RealPlayer or WMP, but I doubt it.

Use Winamp or foobar2000. If you use Winamp, you'll have to download the FLAC plug-in too, I think.

Is there a major difference between the 2?

[Mike Anderson]

Winamp is user friendly, a lot like iTunes.


Foobar is not as user friendly, but is more powerful.

[L.J.]

Winamp is user friendly, a lot like iTunes.


Foobar is not as user friendly, but is more powerful.

Perhaps I will experiment with both. The Foobar is free?

[Mike Anderson]

Yup.....

[L.J.]

Yup.....

Thanks Mike! You and Nod have been a great help. All this right at my fingertips and I didn't even know. I look foward to having my entire CD collection just a few clicks away :)

[Mike Anderson]

^^^ No problem - I get a lot of help from others in this forum too, so I'm glad to give some back!

BTW, if you're going to go through the trouble of ripping all your CDs in FLAC, you may want to use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) to do it. You're less likely to end up with errors and imperfections in your rips.

However, it is very user unfriendly...

[bacchanal]

I know people talk about how CDs etc have a finite life span, but I've never actually had one go bad, and I have some I burned years and years ago.

The Taiyo Yuden DVDs are supposed to be archival quality, and once I burn them I don't touch them, I just store them in a cool dry place.

The other thing is that I live in earthquake country. I like to give my DVD backups to a friend to store, on the logic that it's less likely both our houses will be utterly destroyed. Even a RAID setup won't do much good if your house goes down.

Good point. A friends house or a safe deposit box would be a good idea if you're really serious about backing up your library, and DVDs are probably the easiest/most stable way for consumers to use off-site storage. External hard drives would be more fragile than DVDs, and tape backups (while very stable) are expensive for the amount of storage you would need.

[L.J.]

Alright, so I downloaded the Winamp and installed that and Flac. I also ordered the iMic today. All I need now is some time to fill up my 80g HD with my CD collection. Thanks again guys! :)

[L.J.]

Ok, I'm lost again. How do you rip the CD in Flac format?

[Mike Anderson]

There are several programs you can use. If you're fairly computer savvy, I recommend Exact Audio Copy:

http://www.exactaudiocopy.org/

This is a freeware program that will give you error-free rips, if you use it properly. But it takes a little bit of work to set up.

Somewhere on the web there's a set of step-by-step instructions for doing it right. See if you can find it on Google; if you can't I'll hunt it down for you. Might be in the Hydrogen Audio forums.

[L.J.]

Thanks Mike, I'll search tomorrow. Too lazy tonight. So what does this program do and when does flac come into play?

[L.J.]

There are several programs you can use. If you're fairly computer savvy, I recommend Exact Audio Copy:

http://www.exactaudiocopy.org/

This is a freeware program that will give you error-free rips, if you use it properly. But it takes a little bit of work to set up.

Somewhere on the web there's a set of step-by-step instructions for doing it right. See if you can find it on Google; if you can't I'll hunt it down for you. Might be in the Hydrogen Audio forums.

Hey Mike, are these (http://www.carltonbale.com/projects/cd_audio_extraction/) the instructions you were refering to.

[L.J.]

Hey Nod, I have a question. I got the iMic today, but it didn't come with software. In order for me to record my cassettes onto my HD, compatible software is needed. iMic provides software (http://www.griffintechnology.com/software/software_imic.html) for Apple users only. Do you have any idea of what type of free recording software I can use for this?

Thanks

[noddin0ff]

So, unfortunately I'm a Mac guy. It's unfortunate Griffin doesn't have freeware for PC recording, but I think any current recording software available for the PC should work. The second of the two help links suggested Sound Recorder and Windows Movie Maker as things that come free with XP that should work. The first link gave some other names.

http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic/IMIC-PC-014.html
http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic/IMIC-PC-002.html


I did a quick web search and came up with Audacity as a possibe program
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

I haven't used my iMic to record so I'm afraid I'm not much of a help here. I'll be interested to hear what you find. Someday I'll record my boxes of cassette tapes.

[Karl Chang]

Thanks Nod. You kinda lost me abit with all that format talk, but oh well. I'm currently using WMP and I also have Real player and iTunes. I will give the iTunes a try and see for myself if it sounds better. I have learned alot from this one thread. The airport express and squeeze box seem to be great products. I will have to look into it more when I get a little extra cash. I surely can drop 40 bucks on that iMic for the time being, though. I still have a couple hundred cassette tapes laying around. The hard part is gonna be ripping my 200+ CD's onto my laptop. I couldn't imagine doing over 700 :eek: .


Have you tried WinAmp.
I personally prefer it over WMP any day.
My collection of downloaded and ripped songs are mainly in m4a format(also known as
"mp4 aac" or "MPEG-4 advanced audio codec").Apple's AAC is the stripped down and bare bones core of m4a.
You can only use it with iTunes and iPod (proprietary bull****}

My m4a's are from P2P or ripping via Realplayer
Compared to mp3 the sound is closer to cd quuality
unless somebody has bad ripping software (sometimes m4a's downloaded through P2P
programs sound bad because of this).
by the way, WMP can't play m4a's. You'll need Winamp, Realplayer or iTunes.

The downside: does not play in most portable mp3 players except iPod (too bad)
I usually like to burn them onto cd for my cd changer, so it's ok for me.

My computer is hooked up to my my Denon AVR1906 reciever via Creative Labs
Soundblaster and it's headphone output{wish it had a digital optical output}.
Even though analog , the sound is much better than any computer speaker system.

[L.J.]

So, unfortunately I'm a Mac guy. It's unfortunate Griffin doesn't have freeware for PC recording, but I think any current recording software available for the PC should work. The second of the two help links suggested Sound Recorder and Windows Movie Maker as things that come free with XP that should work. The first link gave some other names.

http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic/IMIC-PC-014.html
http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/imic/IMIC-PC-002.html


I did a quick web search and came up with Audacity as a possibe program
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

I haven't used my iMic to record so I'm afraid I'm not much of a help here. I'll be interested to hear what you find. Someday I'll record my boxes of cassette tapes.

Hey Nod, well the audacity works fine. The Win sound recorder works for only one minute and I couldn't get the Win movie maker figured out. Anyways, after recording a couple of songs and playing around with noise filtering and what not, it still just sounds like crap. Perhaps I've become too use to the sounds of SACD and DVD-A. I didn't expect a cassette recorded onto my HD to sound like much anyways. Just too much of a headache and wasted time trying to get the recording to sound just right to my ears. I will do a little more research and play around with it a little more before saying screw it. Thanks for links.

[Kaboom]

The day will come when you can run OSX on a PC and Windows on a Mac.


That day has already come. for those of you interested, this link describes what you need to do to be able to run the latest OSX on a PC.

http://osx86project.org/

Long gone is the era where PCs and Macs were totally different at a hardware level. It started off with networking, then SCSI drives, then PCI ports, USB, firewire, then RAM, AGP, PCI express... up to a couple of months ago, the only difference between PC and mac hardware was the processor, and hence, the chipset. Now intel has ironed that out. At the moment there are no differences between a Mac and a PC at a hardware level. the only reason OSX doesn't run on EVERY PC is because some of the devices are not supported, but all of the PC architecture is... Kinda like when linux was starting out and it wouldn't run on some computers because it lacked hardware support...
I think OSX is a way inferior system in comparison to XP though. i just find it way lacking in user manageability and features. And i've been using an ibook for a while now. (its really, really cute though)
cheers!

[IVB]

I think cheap multi-zone/multi-source distribution & control will be the killer app that gets many people interested in creating HTPCs. A cheap PC combined with the right s/w, a serial-controllable reciever [i have the denon 3805], a $250 wifi tablet P3-400 PC can allow you to use pretty GUI screens to select any song in your selection, start/stop/volume in any zone.

(and yes, i know my choice of backgrounds, fonts, & colors is awful, but i JUST created this and am playing around to see if I can get something that looks better)

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/IV_zone_overview.jpg

[noddin0ff]

cool!

[Modernaire]

My view is that I use 320 MP3 for songs or artists I casually like. I have my mini as a music server of sorts with album covers shown large when playing. Kind of like a digital jukebox I can see from afar. Fairly simple to set up. But I have to add, IVB, that interface, dude whats up with that GUI.

BUT for artists I really enjoy and really love and respect, I get the CD and or the Vinyl (sealed or NM).

I call it geekfree musical enjoyment. Either you go geek or you go gear. But this is just my view. Not into the latest squeeze box wireless media box PCHDMJK geek thing. I just like my stereo setup with each format represented. Something about that. I dont know...a computer company making things for me to enjoy music with...engh. For MP3's its cool and to set one up as your own radio like music server that can play in the background is cool. But again, for that special album, its CD or LP or heck even an MD.

[James Jardine]

cool!

[wayner86]

Most Applications Crash If Not The Operating System Hangs

:ciappa:

[IVB]

But I have to add, IVB, that interface, dude whats up with that GUI.

yeah, yeah i know - i'm certainly no artist. I just dislike every single mass-market GUI out there, so i'm trying to build my own.

Here's my latest attempt (caveat: I'm using actual art I got from www.vladstudio.com - i'm not that talented, don't want anyone thinking i'm ripping anybody off)

Main screen:
http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/vladstudio/VladStudio_Wrapper.JPG

And, zone control screen:
http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/vladstudio/VladStudio_ZoneControl.jpg