Denon DVD-2200 - 24/96 PCM signals

[mattlevy]

I am a proud owner of the Denon DVD-2200 Universal player. The DVD-Audio and SACD performance are excellent. Picture quality from DVDs are also fantastic. On Denon's website with the listed specs for the product, it boasts that the player can pass 24/96 PCM signals. I have found this to be an out and out lie and totally bunk. The player can handle these 24/96 PCM signals but then downconverts them to 16/44.1 or 16/48 for output (for copyright reasons). The users manual confirms this. One must put on the LPCM switch so that the downconversion occurs, otherwise no signal is output. The only exception would be any PCM source that is not copyright protected. In such a case, the full resolution and bandwidth would be played. I know of absolutely no such CDs or DVD-Audio discs that have 24/96 PCM and are also non-copyright protected. For example, Queen's "The Game" DVD-Audio has an option for 24/96 PCM stereo. The Denon can't do it, rather it is downconverted. I don't count using two-channel analog as PCM stereo. Even Denon's DVD-2900 and DVD-5900 do the same downconversion. My receiver (Marantz SR-18EX) handles and plays 24/96 PCM signals, and even has a readout on the screen that says "Stereo 96 khz" when any such source is played through the receiver. Unfortunately, I have never been able to hear anything in that format. Anyone have any feedback on this? Any way to override copyright protected 24/96 PCM stereo material? Am I wrong? You may ask me why do 24/96 PCM when you have DVD-Audio...but I am curious how 24/96 stereo sounds in the digital domain. Thanks!

[kexodusc]

Very intersting post indeed. Can anyone else confirm mattlevy's claims? If this is indeed the case I think I may stay away from the Denon. This is certainly worthy of further investigation.
Do other models from other manufacturers behave similarly, or is this phenomenon, if true, unique to Denon?

[kexodusc]

Mattlevy, I've done a tiny bit of thinking about this (something I try to avoid) and here's what I've come up with as a solution to your problem, please correct me if I'm wrong or this doesn't work.
For copyright protecton purposes, the digital output is converted down, to take advantage of the high resolution format you need to connect your player to your receiver with analogue RCA style cables, an optical or coaxial digital cable isn't an option. Don't be under the impression that this limits the sound quality, good analog cables will produce excellent sound and many still prefer them over digital cables anyway.
If your player is connected with analog cables (1 for each speaker channel and sub) and you still aren't getting the the 24/96 signal, we may have a problem.
To my knowledge no DVD-A or SACD players play high resolution audio through digital cables yet, but I could be wrong.
Let me know if this works.
The only 24/96 signal I can think of (again, I might be wrong) that would pass through a digital cable is DTS 96/24 format found on some DVD-videos, if the source is encoded as such.

[mattlevy]

In response to the above post, I am fully aware of how to connect the DVD player's analog connections into the receiver and receive the high quality sound via the 5.1 channel outputs. This is how I play my DVD-Audios and SACD's on this player, and again they do sound superb. However, the key word to the 24/96 PCM debate is the word "PCM" (Pulse Control Mechanism I belive it stands for) - this is purely a digital format and not analog to my understanding. If I am wrong about that, then someone please correct me. If I was truly getting the 24/96 PCM signal sent to my receiver, the receiver has a readout on the screen that will say "Stereo 96 khz." It also has a readout on the screen which says "PCM" when receiving a digital signal (i.e. - CDs played via a digital coax or optical). Sending a signal through the analog outs of the DVD player will not produce such a readout (either PCM or Stereo 96 khz). I am not saying that one cannot achieve an equal or perhaps better sound via analog connections. What I am saying is that the word "PCM" is a digital format. True, some DTS music CD's or DVD-Audios have a 24/96 format in the digital domain, but you do need a recent surround receiver that can play such a format. I bought my Marantz SR-18EX receiver in late 2000, and DTS 24/96 (or even DTS-ES) did not exist at that time. In fact, my receiver was one of the first that boasted the then new THX-EX format (the Denon 4800 receiver I believe was the very first one that did THX-EX).
However, do not fear the Denon players because of this oddity. My guess is that there is no decently priced Universal Player (or even a regular DVD player) that can pass 24/96 PCM signals digitally. You probably need to shell out $8,000 to $10,000 on a Lexicon, Lynn, Meridian, Bel Canto or Krell to get the full nine yards. Most people don't have that kind of money for one component, even attorneys like me (besides our wives would kill us if we did). More feedback on this subject is welcome and encouraged.

[kexodusc]

You're right, I did misinterpret your question. Pulse code modulation is not being passed externally by your DVD player, which is what I assume you are after. You could infer that it is being passed internally, maybe that's what Denon's done. Rather misleading. However, whether it's converted by your receiver or your DVD player shouldn't matter assuming the DAC's are of equal ability. In this particular case I'll assume your newer DVD player has a better DAC than your receiver.
Curious though, I've since looked at Denon's website for that particular claim and I haven't been able to find it (althought their site isn't the greatest). In fact, when I looked at Denon's website the only reference to the audio output I could find was the following:
" Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD 1791 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no down-conversion of DSD "
They clearly state that DSD will not be down-converted, I guess we are to figure out for ourselves that PCM will undergo down-conversion. Unfortunately I couldn't find any claim by Denon stating their product would pass 24 bit 96kHz PCM.
Perhaps you could post a link where Denon does imply their product will pass PCM at that sampling rate?

[mattlevy]

In response to your inquiry, go back to the Denon website and find the DVD-2200 product description. Starting on the 10th line from the bottom, it says "24/96 digital output, optical and coaxial." One (at least me) must assume this means 24/96 PCM signals, in addition to any Dolby Digital or DTS 24/96 signals. On the user manual, on page 13, it has a chart showing the downconversion I am talking about. Unless the copyright protection is off, 24/96 PCM is downconverted to 16 bit 44.1 khz or 16 bit 48 khz. Sorry I misnamed the PCM acronym.

[recoveryone]

Hey guys, for the most part you are right, but I have a DVD (ultimate DVD Silver edition) that has copyright free music that plays 96kHz Stereo digitally. A matter of fact I heard the song (jazz) playing in background on a commerical during the NFC championship game. When I play the song my receiver clicks over to 96kHz Stereo displayed.

[kexodusc]

Recoveryone: Would I be correct in assuming that the software that protects copyrights in these digital formats is what instructs the dvd players to down-convert the signal, in which case Denon isn't on the hook for misrepresenting their product?

[mtrycraft]

Starting on the 10th line from the bottom, it says "24/96 digital output, optical and coaxial." One (at least me) must assume this means 24/96 PCM signals, in addition to any Dolby Digital or DTS 24/96 signals.

Did you contact Denon and ask what they mean by this description? Send them an email and see what the mean.
But you are correct, if that is on the web site which I have no reason to doubt you, I didn't check, it means what you expect.
Tell them, if there are exceptions, that should be explained up front, not in the owners manual as by then you have the component which you may not really want.

[mattlevy]

Did you contact Denon and ask what they mean by this description? Send them an email and see what the mean.
But you are correct, if that is on the web site which I have no reason to doubt you, I didn't check, it means what you expect.
Tell them, if there are exceptions, that should be explained up front, not in the owners manual as by then you have the component which you may not really want.

I did e-mail Denon the same time I put up my original post. I am still awaiting their reply. I predict they will try to spin doctor the subject. If anyone knows of any other non-copyright protected 24/96 PCM material, let us all know. As for the commercial in 96 khz, that is very interesting for TV, especially for Fox which is not even in true hi-def yet. If you do look at the back of Queen's "The Game" DVD-Audio, it gives 3 options: 24/96 DVD-Audio, 24/96 DTS, and 24/96 PCM stereo. If anyone can play option 3 in true 24 bit 96 khz, let us know what you are using and doing.

[recoveryone]

Recoveryone: Would I be correct in assuming that the software that protects copyrights in these digital formats is what instructs the dvd players to down-convert the signal, in which case Denon isn't on the hook for misrepresenting their product?
I'm a noob to all this DVD-A/SACD stuff, but I do enjoy good clean sounding music. I was just as disappointed as Mattlevy about the playback of these so-called High Rez disks. I had the (ultimate DVD) for a while and never paid much attention to it cause I didn't have any other Commerical High Rez disks. I thought they all would play like the sample disk did. When I purchased the 45a and read some of the post on here I got a little interested, but was confused about the lack of my receivers displaying the 96kHz or at least 48kHz like the sample disk did. Both of my systems are able to playback the format. My bedroom system Pioneer VSX D411 and DV-525 played the DD&DTS version of the DVD-A disk, but no 48kHz or 96kHz and my Family room system played the DVD-A 2.0 & 3/2 High rez and the SACD in 2.0. As far as copyrights instruction I would believe this must be the case, DVD players are software driven and only do what the software lets them do ie: angle changing view on a movie.

[Woochifer]

I am a proud owner of the Denon DVD-2200 Universal player. The DVD-Audio and SACD performance are excellent. Picture quality from DVDs are also fantastic. On Denon's website with the listed specs for the product, it boasts that the player can pass 24/96 PCM signals. I have found this to be an out and out lie and totally bunk. The player can handle these 24/96 PCM signals but then downconverts them to 16/44.1 or 16/48 for output (for copyright reasons). The users manual confirms this. One must put on the LPCM switch so that the downconversion occurs, otherwise no signal is output. The only exception would be any PCM source that is not copyright protected. In such a case, the full resolution and bandwidth would be played. I know of absolutely no such CDs or DVD-Audio discs that have 24/96 PCM and are also non-copyright protected. For example, Queen's "The Game" DVD-Audio has an option for 24/96 PCM stereo. The Denon can't do it, rather it is downconverted. I don't count using two-channel analog as PCM stereo. Even Denon's DVD-2900 and DVD-5900 do the same downconversion. My receiver (Marantz SR-18EX) handles and plays 24/96 PCM signals, and even has a readout on the screen that says "Stereo 96 khz" when any such source is played through the receiver. Unfortunately, I have never been able to hear anything in that format. Anyone have any feedback on this? Any way to override copyright protected 24/96 PCM stereo material? Am I wrong? You may ask me why do 24/96 PCM when you have DVD-Audio...but I am curious how 24/96 stereo sounds in the digital domain. Thanks!

This is a really a non-issue. Your response indcates that you don't know enough about all the various formats to call it an "out and out lie and totally bunk." DVD-A and SACD are copy protected to only output at full resolution through the analog outs. There ARE discs out there that contain 96/24 stereo PCM soundtracks, but the only way that they can be output through the digital audio outputs is if the soundtrack is on the DVD VIDEO layer, rather than the copy protected DVD-A layer. 96/24 PCM stereo is part of the DVD-V specs, which require that the audio portion be encoded in EITHER Dolby Digital or PCM. Since DD takes up less space, very few DVDs contain PCM soundtracks. The DVD-V format allows for a 96/24 PCM soundtrack, but in an uncompressed form, it basically does not leave enough space for video. It's not a lie or bunk because Denon's just following what the DVD-V specs allow for.

There ARE 96/24 PCM audio discs out there, and the 12 discs in my collection with open 96/24 soundtracks is proof that they exist. They were released by audiophile labels like Chesky and Classic Records, rather than the major labels, which are pretty paranoid about any kind of open digital format. But, as I said at the beginning this is really a non-issue because with the advent of DVD-A, there's no longer a need to issue 96/24 PCM audio discs. Most of the ones that came out were released before DVD-A players were available, and I doubt that too many new ones will come out so it's basically a dead format, although some DVD-A discs contain a 96/24 PCM track on the backup DVD-V layer (the one that contains the backwards compatible DD and/or DTS tracks). The two-track soundtracks on DVD-A discs are typically encoded at 192/24, while the multichannel soundtracks have 96/24 resolution on six soundtracks.

In actuality, several DVD players by default downsample all of the digital outputs to 48 kHz sampling rate, so the Denon actually is a step up in that it can output a 96/24 PCM signal at full resolution. Just enjoy your player, and don't look over your shoulder trying to find things to nitpick, it's hardly worth the effort.

[recoveryone]

I'm a noob to all this DVD-A/SACD stuff, but I do enjoy good clean sounding music. I was just as disappointed as Mattlevy about the playback of these so-called High Rez disks. I had the (ultimate DVD) for a while and never paid much attention to it cause I didn't have any other Commerical High Rez disks. I thought they all would play like the sample disk did. When I purchased the 45a and read some of the post on here I got a little interested, but was confused about the lack of my receivers displaying the 96kHz or at least 48kHz like the sample disk did. Both of my systems are able to playback the format. My bedroom system Pioneer VSX D411 and DV-525 played the DD&DTS version of the DVD-A disk, but no 48kHz or 96kHz and my Family room system played the DVD-A 2.0 & 3/2 High rez and the SACD in 2.0. As far as copyrights instruction I would believe this must be the case, DVD players are software driven and only do what the software lets them do ie: angle changing view on a movie.I went through my collection and found the DVD (ultimate DVD Silver) and played the music section and Bang! the 96kHz display came on. The song, Blues for Danny is by Joe Stanley, King of the Honky Tonk Sax Album. But it may be as Woochifer said, these disk are rare and far between. I like it over the DVD-A and SACD and the sound is digitally sent. I played both style of disk and could not hear a real difference, but the Bass management was right on with the 96kHz disk. The DVD-A, I had to manually switch it to 3/2 by remote so my sub would kick in. The SACD, just no love for Sat & Sub setups.

[spf]

I totally agree with Woochifer's post regarding the formats that can and cannot be played. It is simply a matter of corporate protectionism and not a fault of the player. DVD-Audio only goes through my Analog inputs on my DVD-2200 in full res and I've accepted this. Now if someone were to crack the format and created a firmware upgrade.......

Anyways, be proud Matt, that you have a top-quality universal player and I'm sure you will enjoy your purchase even more. Cheers

Shane

[mattlevy]

Got my reply from Denon today regarding this issue, which was consistent with Woochifer's response. Again, I am totally happy with my player, and the DVD-Audio and SACD sound killer, it just seemed to be somewhat misleading to someone like me who could not play the 24/96 PCM layer on the Queen DVD-Audio "The Game." This was the reply --->

Matt, Jim and Dana

Maybe this will clear up the confusion of 24/96 digital output. It will only work with what are called 'DAD's (Digital Audio Discs) which are DVDs with 2 channel 24/96 tracks LPCM not PPCM that is found on DVD-A discs. Remember a DVD-V disc can have 2 channel 24/96, and 5.1 24/48 DD and/or 24/48/96 dts tracks.

Please also keep in mind that DVD-A disc may be any of the above listed compression formats. This is left to the discretion of the recording house/ mixing engineer.

Once a DVD-A disc is inserted the digital outputs perform as the customer states due to copyright protection, and the reason we have the DENON Link.

Do not set the LPCM to on, leave it off. DAD discs are available from Chesky, Telarc, AudioQuest and some other smaller studios.

Hope this helps.

Matt