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Defshep
01-10-2006, 02:05 AM
Well, after about a year of deliberating, I've finally taken the step into HD! Christmas came a little late this year, since I've been in the process of moving. Just got a Pioneer VSX-815 receiver (which sounds awesome! Auto Acoustic Calibration is great), and a Toshiba 51H84 RPTV HD monitor. The picture on the tv looks great, except for really dark scenes in which a light red image appears around the edges of the screen. I seem to be the only one to notice this, so I haven't pointed it out to the wife (she'll just accuse me of being nitpicky). Is this just a normal picture for rear projection tvs? I realize it's not the picture quality of DLP or plasma, but that definitely wasn't in the budget. As I said, it's not a problem during well-lit scenes. I've only watched progressive scan dvds and digital cable so far. HD cable is being installed on Friday! Can't wait...

edtyct
01-10-2006, 06:09 AM
Three things you can do immediately: Shut off any edge-enhancement features, like scan velocity modulation, remove any electromagnetic interference (like unshielded speakers) to a safe distance, and tinker with touch focus and auto focus to see whether you can bring red into alignment with blue and green around the edges. Sometimes a TV won't allow minor fringing of this sort to be corrected through the user controls.

Defshep
01-10-2006, 06:44 AM
Three things you can do immediately: Shut off any edge-enhancement features, like scan velocity modulation, remove any electromagnetic interference (like unshielded speakers) to a safe distance, and tinker with touch focus and auto focus to see whether you can bring red into alignment with blue and green around the edges. Sometimes a TV won't allow minor fringing of this sort to be corrected through the user controls.

Thanks for the advice. I'll see about the edge enhancement, although I haven't really had the time to get into the guts of the features yet. About the only color enhancement I've done is the touch focus feature, so I guess proper calibration may help. My speakers are supposed to be shielded. The only one close is the center, which sits on top. My other tv wasn't affected, so would it affect an projection set differently?

edtyct
01-10-2006, 07:31 AM
If your speakers are shielded, then you're covered. So far as edge enhancement is concerned, I doubt that SVM is responsible for the red fringing, but it may exacerbate it, as well as make the picture more ragged than it has to be. It will also interfere with proper calibration. The default for TVs that have it (almost all of them) is usually "on," so you have to disarm it yourself. The red fringe appears to be a convergence problem around the edges. If the TV allows you to converge manually, you ought to do so. The auto functions are a convenience but not totally trustworthy. As I said, however, you may not be able to reach the problem. If not, you could buy Toshiba's service manual and give it a deeper shot. No guarantees, though, and tinkering with the service menu is risky.

agtpunx40
01-10-2006, 09:17 AM
That's the same TV I got about 8 months ago, good call. The first thing that you should do is go get either Avia or Digital Essentials Home Theater Setup disk. Either of these will allow you to properly set up your tv in terms of color, contrast, etc, and give you a reasonable understanding of what's going on. For some reason, they do not sell these in store in Best Buy or Circuit City, but you can get them from barnes and Noble, Amazon, or a "real" HT store. Run the auto convergence, and turn off any extra red push (for example don't have the color set to "warm"). Properly setting the color levels, they are almost never properly set out of the box, may fix the problem. If it doesn't, and it didn't with mine, you'll have to make a decision. Depending on how bad the problem is you may decide to live with it, or try to fix it through the service menu which is not difficult, but is risky. Definatly do a good amount of research before you try it.
Here is a good forum that someone here gave to me that specializes more in this type of thing

http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/forumdisplay.php?f=13

I had this problem on my tv, and eventually, after going into the service menu and changing a few things, almost totally fixed the problem. Without special equipment and a certified technician, fixing the problem I think it's about a good as it will get. These are subtelties, nothing major.

Man, you'll love HD. You'll watch alot more nature shows.

edtyct
01-10-2006, 09:32 AM
Agtpunx,

I would stay with the warm setting on the TV unless you know that it is inaccurate. Warm is usually the closet default to D65. You can check for a red push when you calibrate. Remember, however, that a red push is probably Toshiba's way of counteracting the unwanted effects of a blue push to increase the impression of brightness. The extra red is added to make flesh tones look more natural; defeating it without a total calibration from top to bottom, which the user cannot do, might render flesh tones too green. This is really a Pandora's Box. The red fringing is most likely a convergence problem, anyway.

Ed

Eric Z
01-10-2006, 09:43 AM
Is it possible to talk to someone at Toshiba? I know there are companies where it's impossible to talk to someone who is familiar with a specific problem. I'm guessing this TV isn't supposed to do this so why try to fix it on your own? Or, is it they want you to hire someone to calibrate the TV? I doubt it's the latter since Toshiba isn't benefiting from you hiring a non-Toshiba person to calibrate. I know I've heard that TVs are calibrated too well out of the box, but it would piss the hell out of me if I dropped $1K+ on a TV and I have to mess with it for hours to get the picture to how it's supposed to look.

If you can't get in touch with Toshiba, maybe connect with the store you bought it from- if there customer service is any good at all, they would be able to work with you at fixing the problem.

bfalls
01-10-2006, 05:28 PM
If you're seeing this on both DVD and cable the problem is probably convergence or "red push" as indicated earlier. Most RPTVs have utility to set the convergence either automatically or manually. "Red push" (white balance) however requires calibration by a video technician. White balance requires service menu adjustments of the drive and cutoff controls, usually for the red and blue guns at both high and low IRE levels. Using the Avia or DVE DVD won't resolve these issues, but is good for setting the five user controls (brightness, conrast, color, hue, sharpness) for the input connected to the DVD player. Since each input is controlled individually, it won't help the cable input. Even if you temporarily connect the DVD to the cable TV input it won't guarantee calibration unless the output of the cable box and DVD player are equal or close.

kexodusc
01-10-2006, 05:31 PM
I have the same model...Had to enter the service menu to fix the "Red Push"...problem is these things aren't calibrated at the factory (it just won't be cost effective) so the specs vary quite a bit.
Avia or DVE can help you alot.
A good resource is this forum:
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/forumdisplay.php?f=13
Just search for "red push" in the Toshiba forum.

s dog
01-10-2006, 08:54 PM
Well, after about a year of deliberating, I've finally taken the step into HD! Christmas came a little late this year, since I've been in the process of moving. Just got a Pioneer VSX-815 receiver (which sounds awesome! Auto Acoustic Calibration is great), and a Toshiba 51H84 RPTV HD monitor. The picture on the tv looks great, except for really dark scenes in which a light red image appears around the edges of the screen. I seem to be the only one to notice this, so I haven't pointed it out to the wife (she'll just accuse me of being nitpicky). Is this just a normal picture for rear projection tvs? I realize it's not the picture quality of DLP or plasma, but that definitely wasn't in the budget. As I said, it's not a problem during well-lit scenes. I've only watched progressive scan dvds and digital cable so far. HD cable is being installed on Friday! Can't wait...
I have the 57h84 the only thing i have noticed is on some dvd,s the actors face looks a little bit to red for my liking, i have not seen any red edges in dark scenes, and yes mine is able to manually converge so im sure yours will to, i would try that for sure.

Defshep
01-11-2006, 02:35 AM
Thank you all for the useful info. I tinkered with it a little yesterday and toned down the color settings a little. I saw the menu that allows me to lighten the red push a little, so that'll be today's task. I'll check out the posts y'all recommended. I just hope this isn't a serious problem. I got a little miffed when I saw a comparable Hitachi just advertised for 40 bucks cheaper this week at the same store. I guess I could take it back, but if this is a fixable problem it's not worth the hassle.

Defshep
01-11-2006, 03:07 AM
Unfortunately, Rex (the dealer I bought it from) has no service department. I bought a 2 year service agreement for $9.99. That just sends it to a repair shop that handles Circuit City repairs as well. I'm a little nervous about going into the service menu. I gotta say the picture looks great. Watched "Red Eye" last night, and was happier with my settings until....the closing credits. That darned red cloud appeared around the edges. Maybe I can live with it, but I think It'll ruin the Star Wars intros for me! I could trade it for the Hitachi, but what a pain! I really like this tv, but I only have a couple of days to decide.

kexodusc
01-11-2006, 04:58 AM
Defshep:

There's a strong possibility any other TV you buy will have a similar issue. Or it could be a push with greens or blues. Red push seems to be most common. Blue doesn't get picked up by the human eye as much, but it's out there too. My parents Hitachi had a really strong Red Push too. Other than paying a $300 or so for a full ISF calibration (which isn't a bad idea) you're pretty much left with entering the service menu (there's a "trick" to accessing the secret menu) and adjusting the parameters in there.

Be warned though, do not take this decision lightly, if you do decide to go that route, be sure to copy every single value down on paper (there's 50 or so) before you make any changes. Messing around with those settings can mess up your TV, so you'll want to know the default values first.

Again, HDTVoice.com is an excellent resource, you should find all the instructions you need.

Or, take the set back. You paid good money. A tech "might" be able to fix this (most I've met don't know much about service menus), or you could exchange your set, but like I said, you run the risk of this very common problem happening again.

Let us know what you decide.

Defshep
01-11-2006, 05:21 AM
Defshep:

There's a strong possibility any other TV you buy will have a similar issue. Or it could be a push with greens or blues. Red push seems to be most common. Blue doesn't get picked up by the human eye as much, but it's out there too. My parents Hitachi had a really strong Red Push too. Other than paying a $300 or so for a full ISF calibration (which isn't a bad idea) you're pretty much left with entering the service menu (there's a "trick" to accessing the secret menu) and adjusting the parameters in there.

Be warned though, do not take this decision lightly, if you do decide to go that route, be sure to copy every single value down on paper (there's 50 or so) before you make any changes. Messing around with those settings can mess up your TV, so you'll want to know the default values first.

Again, HDTVoice.com is an excellent resource, you should find all the instructions you need.

Or, take the set back. You paid good money. A tech "might" be able to fix this (most I've met don't know much about service menus), or you could exchange your set, but like I said, you run the risk of this very common problem happening again.

Let us know what you decide.

Thanks, kex. I figured as much. I think sticking with the Toshiba may be the best way to go. I know, especially with these types of sets, you run the risk with bugs here and there. I also tweaks are also involved. I'll play some more today.
On a side note, I'm really enjoying my Pioneer 815. Just great sounding.

Eric Z
01-11-2006, 06:23 AM
Do you guys think these problems will be fixed in the near future? Kex mentioned how it's not cost effective to calibrate the sets at the factory- I guess that would be a hassle for them, but how can a company sell a TV that needs work when you bring it home? I'm thinking it's just because HDTV is so new and this will all be fixed over time- maybe as more and more people bring the TVs back.

I haven't heard of this issue until now, but it's interesting how a few people responded with the same issues. Maybe that's why I'm not taking the leap yet :)

Anyway, good luck with your new purchase and let us know your next steps!

edtyct
01-11-2006, 06:57 AM
The kinds of problem brought up in this thread have existed since color was introduced. To some extent, it took consciousness raising to make them evident. If you don't have some sort of reference for how well a TV can operate, many of the glitches simply don't appear as such. I'm willing to bet that many of our TVs, no matter what they are, exhibit flaws caused by design compromises that many of us would fail to recognize until someone pointed them out, or even simply mentioned them.

Kexo is absolutely right. It isn't cost-effective for manufacturers to calibrate TVs to professional standards, and it never has been. First of all, many mfgrs aren't convinced that consumers will appreciate it, since a proper greyscale is darker than many people without A/V pretensions tend to like. A recent blindfold test involving nonenthusiasts turned up that most of them tend to prefer displays that are way too bright for their, or the display's, own good; you tend to like what you know. Second, a proper greyscale looks terrible on a showroom floor. The completely skewed color and brightness of the cheap set on the bright floor of the local Walmart will look worlds better to the uninformed eye than the typical professional monitor placed alongside of it. Sales are far more important to most mfgrs than pleasing the less than 1% of the population that dissents.

As for this trend changing over time, I'd normally doubt it; the incentive isn't there. However, LCoS TVs are so readily adaptable to a proper greyscale that the possibility of bringing them into line is much much more viable than with other technologies. Right now, that's where the best hope lies, but the overwhelming lack of consumer awareness remains a huge stumbling block.

Until proven otherwise, I still believe that Defshep's red border is a convergence issue. You can have red push on a CRT without fringing. There are other possibilities as well, but that's where my money goes. If I'm wrong, however, it won't be the first time. Of course, he could have a convergence issue as well as a red push. A few test screens from DVE should solve the mystery.

kexodusc
01-11-2006, 08:40 AM
Convergence is possible...Good thought. Defshep, is it a thin, lined red border, or a gradual cloudy glow? And is it more noticeable on the right side of the screen, left side, or even all around?

Defshep
01-13-2006, 05:11 AM
Convergence is possible...Good thought. Defshep, is it a thin, lined red border, or a gradual cloudy glow? And is it more noticeable on the right side of the screen, left side, or even all around?
Sorry, been without cable (internet) for a couple of days. It is a gradual, cloudy glow. Any ideas?

kexodusc
01-13-2006, 05:50 AM
This sounds exactly like a Red Push, particular if the "cloudy glow" is stronger on the right side of the set (where the red gun rests).
I managed to eliminate it by changing 2 settings in the service menu, RCut and RDRV. This just basically just the level settings of the red gun in your set. A bonus for me was my blues actually became bluer instead of a more violet color. My color tests in DVE were much closer to ideal and my gray scale was better (but it's still not perfect).
Basically, after a month of internet searching, a few dozen Toshiba and Hitachi users finally talked me into entering the service menu to alter these setings. My mom's Hitachi set was pretty scarry to navigate through, but the Toshiba's aren't bad at all.

It's as simple as changing the "level" of Rcut or Rdrv (possibly a combination of both) in the service menu, kind of like adjusting the speaker delay settings on your receiver.

I know HDTvoice has a bunch of links in the Toshiba forum on how to enter the service menu and make the changes if you're up for that task. If you go this route, you should read up on entering the service menu (do some searches in their Toshiba forum). I'm not going to step you through it because there are a few "do's" and "dont's" and you should read those and decide for yourself, but here's a link you can read for information purposes to see what's involved.
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=21798

Defshep
01-13-2006, 06:08 AM
This sounds exactly like a Red Push, particular if the "cloudy glow" is stronger on the right side of the set (where the red gun rests).
I managed to eliminate it by changing 2 settings in the service menu, RCut and RDRV. This just basically just the level settings of the red gun in your set. A bonus for me was my blues actually became bluer instead of a more violet color. My color tests in DVE were much closer to ideal and my gray scale was better (but it's still not perfect).
Basically, after a month of internet searching, a few dozen Toshiba and Hitachi users finally talked me into entering the service menu to alter these setings. My mom's Hitachi set was pretty scarry to navigate through, but the Toshiba's aren't bad at all.

It's as simple as changing the "level" of Rcut or Rdrv (possibly a combination of both) in the service menu, kind of like adjusting the speaker delay settings on your receiver.

I know HDTvoice has a bunch of links in the Toshiba forum on how to enter the service menu and make the changes if you're up for that task. If you go this route, you should read up on entering the service menu (do some searches in their Toshiba forum). I'm not going to step you through it because there are a few "do's" and "dont's" and you should read those and decide for yourself, but here's a link you can read for information purposes to see what's involved.
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=21798

Thanks again. I adjusted the color somewhat, didn't make much difference. Going into the service menu is a little intimidating, so I may let a friend that owns an electronics repair shop take a look at it. In the meantime, will it cause any permanent damage the way it is now?

agtpunx40
01-13-2006, 10:03 AM
It shouldn't do anything permanent. If you have a friend who really knows what he's doing, it might not be a bad idea to have him look at it.

edtyct
01-13-2006, 12:04 PM
A red push won't harm your set; the mfgr most likely programmed it into the color decoder to fix unfortunate by-products of other tweaks. The need for static and/or dynamic convergence won't hurt the set either, only your mood.