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Bernd
01-09-2006, 04:32 AM
Do you believe in it or not?
And what are your experiences?

The power of music gives you wings.

Bernd

Florian
01-09-2006, 05:35 AM
System Synergy is very important and often missunderstood. As a prime example will take the following system.

Speakers: Magnepan MG20R/SE
Transports: Krell KPS20T and Goldmund CD36 Turntable
DACS: Krell X64 and Krell 64 Reference
Pre: Jadis JP80
Crossover: Audio Research Tube Crossover
AMPS: Conrad Johnson P5's and P4's.
Cables: M1000 on bass and Magnan Flatline on Midrange/Tweeter

The Maggies are not the most dynamic planars and can sound a tad too mellow. With the Krells they get a bit more dynamic but cannot let you hear the wooden material or show you the dynamic contrast between orchestral sections. With the Goldmund the pictures shifts dramatically to a more stable stage with a more evenly and calm layout. The character of the electronics has to match the Character of the speakers. The input impedances and the gain stages need to be driven directly so people have to understand how these things work and how to tune the room accordingly.

Of course this experience is mine and might now show on a typical affordable system but i never speak of values and only in absolute terms.

The cabling is very important too incl. power filters and resistance matching. Electronics have character and they have to match but you need a speaker that will show off the differences and most wont do that. The problem on my system is that the DIVA has no character and will clearly punish you when the system is off .5in or the cables, power filters, dacs, preamps etc..do not match. Its a hard a loong road that most will not want to try to walk on but for people seeking the truth it is necesarry.

System Synergy has to follow a sound philosophy so you need to know what philosophy you want to follow.

Bernd
01-09-2006, 07:42 AM
Good reply.
The working of the different components in harmony is what I have found the greatest challenge in getting the sound as close to the real thing as I can.
I do think you need even in budget equipment take the system synergy into consideration to achieve an acceptable sound.
I once changed a Rega Planet to a Naim CD5 and it would not work well with my Musical fidelity XA-2 and Castle Harlech2 speakers. It was bright and horrible and yet at audition in an all Naim system it sounded fine.
As I progressed it became harder and harder to audition the different components together. I went all over the country to hear and compare.Cartridges are even harder to compare and get right.
So ignore system matching and miss a lot of potential performance.

Bernd

topspeed
01-09-2006, 11:33 AM
Do you believe in it or not?
And what are your experiences?

The power of music gives you wings.

Bernd
... and too often ignored. It's not limited to the pieces in your rig either, the room is a major component of the experience and probably the most overlooked. Without question, the very concept of synergy is very personal. What could equal synergistic bliss to one person may equal unmitigated hell to another. This is one of the main benefits of separates in that you can tailor the sound to your liking. Unfortunately, it's also one of the major pitfalls as it's far easier to get it wrong that it is to get it right. .

"Real" is arbitrary. It's the experience that counts.

kexodusc
01-09-2006, 12:24 PM
Well said Topspeed. I continued to be amazed when I hear some people's carefully constructed systems....what sounds like heaven to them can sound dreadfully mediocre to me.

And "real" is only as real as you're preconceived expectation of it. Just go with what you like the best.

RGA
01-09-2006, 01:12 PM
Synergy is important as you yourself experienced with your Naim example. The problem is knowing what works best together is that that process is too time consuming. Linn among other companies build most of the whole chain from turntable, cd, to speakers -- Which if it is designed by one or two folks for music reproduction purposes can achieve stellar results provided you like their company sound.

Bernd
01-10-2006, 03:29 AM
... and too often ignored. It's not limited to the pieces in your rig either, the room is a major component of the experience and probably the most overlooked. Without question, the very concept of synergy is very personal. What could equal synergistic bliss to one person may equal unmitigated hell to another. This is one of the main benefits of separates in that you can tailor the sound to your liking. Unfortunately, it's also one of the major pitfalls as it's far easier to get it wrong that it is to get it right. .

"Real" is arbitrary. It's the experience that counts.

Well said.I am not sure if Synergy is personal. The sound of a system certainly is, but when components work together well, the result will be good. If they don't, even if the cost was high,the end result can be dissapointing. My experience with the Naim CD5 showed that well. It really sounded different outside an all Naim set up.
It is easy to get it wrong and so difficult to audition all the pieces together. I have been fairly lucky and apart from the fore-mentioned Naim situation, the ride has been pretty smooth so far.
The room, of course is another pitfall.

The power of music gives you wings

Bernd

Bernd
01-10-2006, 03:43 AM
Synergy is important as you yourself experienced with your Naim example. The problem is knowing what works best together is that that process is too time consuming. Linn among other companies build most of the whole chain from turntable, cd, to speakers -- Which if it is designed by one or two folks for music reproduction purposes can achieve stellar results provided you like their company sound.

Hi,
Good post. In the late 80s I did have an all Linn setup (Kaber,LP12,Ittok LVII,Linn Intek and even used Linn cables,the dealer saw me coming).
When I got it all home and set up it sounded fantastic until the Linn sound wasn't enough anymore for me.
System synergy is hard to get right but very rerwarding when it snaps together.

Bernd

RGA
01-10-2006, 10:03 AM
The problem with Linn at that time you bought it was that they were not a big enough company to pay enough attention to all parts of the chain. And now with Linn the owner gone they are not exactly the same "got into making the stuff for the sound quality company but "make it for the buck" company. I don't believe a company that does not have an idea of the entire chain can make great equipment. Though many have a refernece stereo if they are making speakers or vice versa so if they do great. Linn basically had the turntable which was their strongest suit -- the other parts were good - Many companies, usually smaller ones, are making speakers, amps and sources such as Jolida and some companies also make the speakers Almarro - few do it all but IMO the only way to know whatthe design team had in mind is if they control the entire chain - I don't want a Ferrari with Ford Escort tires -- I might make the mistake of blaming the engine when it was the crappy tires that ruined the experience.

Bernd
01-10-2006, 10:24 AM
The problem with Linn at that time you bought it was that they were not a big enough company to pay enough attention to all parts of the chain. And now with Linn the owner gone they are not exactly the same "got into making the stuff for the sound quality company but "make it for the buck" company. I don't believe a company that does not have an idea of the entire chain can make great equipment. Though many have a refernece stereo if they are making speakers or vice versa so if they do great. Linn basically had the turntable which was their strongest suit -- the other parts were good - Many companies, usually smaller ones, are making speakers, amps and sources such as Jolida and some companies also make the speakers Almarro - few do it all but IMO the only way to know whatthe design team had in mind is if they control the entire chain - I don't want a Ferrari with Ford Escort tires -- I might make the mistake of blaming the engine when it was the crappy tires that ruined the experience.

Hi,
I don't agree with the entire chain theory. You could carry on with that to other consumables.And it doesn't work. I believe in "Do what you do well" and if "You want to keep control you got to keep it small".I find big organisations really unpleasent and lacking in ideology.Anything corporate I try to stay away from.
With the Naim CD one could come to such a conclusion. But this might interest you. I changed the Naim for and Audionote 2.1 (I think). That sounded much better and worked really well with the Musical Fidelity and Castle Harlechs. However the build quality was poor. So it went.
You see Ferrari don't make tyres. Bridgestone or Michelin do and they don't make Ferrari's.
You buy the supercar and then choose the tyres to suit your driving style.

Bernd

spacedeckman
01-10-2006, 04:20 PM
Yes, I've brought home stuff that sounded good in someone else's system, but sounded like "backside" in mine. Screwed the balance up. It's hard, but the most satisfying part of putting a system together.

Mr Peabody
01-10-2006, 06:22 PM
Duh.... how do ya meshure dat dare synegy? If'n I can't see it, it must be you all's imagination.

RGA
01-11-2006, 12:10 AM
Hi,
I don't agree with the entire chain theory. You could carry on with that to other consumables.And it doesn't work. I believe in "Do what you do well" and if "You want to keep control you got to keep it small".I find big organisations really unpleasent and lacking in ideology.Anything corporate I try to stay away from.
With the Naim CD one could come to such a conclusion. But this might interest you. I changed the Naim for and Audionote 2.1 (I think). That sounded much better and worked really well with the Musical Fidelity and Castle Harlechs. However the build quality was poor. So it went.
You see Ferrari don't make tyres. Bridgesone or Michelin do and they don't make Ferrari's.
You buy the supercar and then choose the tyres to suit your driving style.

Bernd

Actually I think Ferrari would choose the tires though - they don't have to build everything but they can control their own final product. Audio Note for your example is a prime indicator of that -- much of the stuff they never designed including the 2.1 cd player. Like any company they make decisions and then when they get it down to an affordable level -- have to make compromises -- which is why AN's owner is not listening to the 2.1 or my stuff. They will, in their opinion, find the best unit out there and if needed modifiy it or order the supplier to modify it to their specifications. As you are probably aware they have had a great deal of trouble with suppliers on their one box players which si why they got rid of them - there is a new one coming apparently with a different supplier.

I would agree that a jack of all trades company - large or small - may have trouble making every piece live up to every other piece. What they should be doing is not re-inventing the wheel but finding the best match and buy out the company or the rights to the product -- or merely tell everything that Speaker X works best with our amp in our opinion.

There is a difference too between a company who carries products from source to speakers - and one who adamently desires for the sytem to be kept together.

When i buiy a product from a designer owner of a company -- I want to KNOW what that owner designer has in mind with his top flight system -- or any system he/she sells - that way I know if I am on the same page as said owner designer. I can go in and listen to a full Linn system and that is what Linn is hanging his own hat on - that is what he is saying is what reproduced music is supposed to sound like.

I will accept budget constraints obviously. If his top speaker is $1k then that's fine but I would hope that he tested MANY competiors speakers on his gear for $1k and decided that his speaker was the best match for his equipment at the price point. This goes for all his gear. Having heard an all Linn system and his gear separately I feel he generally offers good stuff but I have not tested it too closely by taking out his cd player and trying a cheaper one from someone else to see. And of course he himself may like a much higher end speaker than what he has chosen to make for pure cost reasons. I know that Peter Qvortrup likes a few speakers more than he likes any of the ones he currently makes or sells. I doubt if many manufacturers will say such things about elite pieces from other makers. That is one reason I prefer smaller companies because the owners are loaded and this is more about making it better than purely about the bottom line.

Bernd
01-11-2006, 12:43 AM
However if you put your name onto something and it's being sold as such that's what you stand for.
Interestingly, my system, through the upgrade process, ended up almost completely made by specialist companies.It worked out that way and sounds good to me.

Take it easy

Bernd

Bernd
01-11-2006, 05:36 AM
Duh.... how do ya meshure dat dare synegy? If'n I can't see it, it must be you all's imagination.

Ya mesure dat wit a ting from de Noddy corp.Made of Bamboo and muffa of pearl.

musicoverall
01-11-2006, 06:57 AM
Do you believe in it or not?
And what are your experiences?

The power of music gives you wings.

Bernd

It's difficult to ignore if one has experience matching components. The problem is that it's viewed by some as an offsetting of one components colorations with opposite colorations of another component in a sort of +1-1 = 0 arrangement. In essence, this is actually correct although I prefer to view it as matching strengths. I thought Florian did a magnificent job of detailing the process by way of using a familiar system. His comments make a lot of sense.

One would think that buying a system based on all highly recommended components would work. However, if there were one basic sound, there would not be box speakers, planars, stats and horns. It makes sense that this is the reason there is also tubes, vinyl, different sounding cables, etc. Not all things work well together and some things simply work better together than others. It's a process and it takes time and experimentation.

Bernd
01-11-2006, 07:21 AM
It's difficult to ignore if one has experience matching components. The problem is that it's viewed by some as an offsetting of one components colorations with opposite colorations of another component in a sort of +1-1 = 0 arrangement. In essence, this is actually correct although I prefer to view it as matching strengths. I thought Florian did a magnificent job of detailing the process by way of using a familiar system. His comments make a lot of sense.

One would think that buying a system based on all highly recommended components would work. However, if there were one basic sound, there would not be box speakers, planars, stats and horns. It makes sense that this is the reason there is also tubes, vinyl, different sounding cables, etc. Not all things work well together and some things simply work better together than others. It's a process and it takes time and experimentation.

Hi,
Very well put.
I also think that after a while experience can go some way in helping to select a component to work with the rest of your gear. But nothing will replace auditioning.

Bernd

musicoverall
01-11-2006, 12:54 PM
Hi,
Very well put.
I also think that after a while experience can go some way in helping to select a component to work with the rest of your gear. But nothing will replace auditioning.

Bernd

Experience matching electrical characteristics will likely result in a less than satisfying sonic experience. Measurements tell what the specs say and can sometimes hint at the sound.

I'll never forget my experience with the measurement perfection known as the Crown IC-150 preamp. What I have forgotten is the more recent Acurus RS-10 or RS-11. One of them sounded like hammered sh*t, too. I just don't recall which one. Whether Acurus figured out their problem and created the RS-11 or butchered a fine sounding component by "upgrading" to the RS-11, I don't recall. But I do remember this unit had great specs and sound to make you cry in pain. One of the units (the later RS-11, I think) sounded fine while the other was just plain godawful. The specs were nearly identical.

hermanv
01-11-2006, 03:59 PM
Synergy, what synergy? I request, no I demand a double blind test and a white paper with a peer reviewed scientific explanation (my apologies to Curmudgeon :) ).

I've been using a three transistor radio with a coat hanger antenna and 2" computer speakers for years and it sounds perfect, there no way there is any such thing as synergy. Uh oh, I think the 2 AA cells just died. :D :D

Mr Peabody
01-11-2006, 06:28 PM
I believe that it is easier to find synergy with sticking to one brand, at least in the electronics. And if you are purchasing everything at once. It's more difficult to put separate pieces together for synergy if you have no point of reference.

Very good electronics can still not have synergy. I had an Arcam Alpha 9 CD player that was an incredible CD player but when I paired it up with a Krell 300i it wasn't bad but I wasn't overly happy with it either. I auditioned a Krell 250cd and although the Alpha 9 may have had an edge in detail the 2 Krell pieces gelled together to make a much preferred musical presentation. Conversely, I recently dropped an Audio Note DAC into my system between a Krell 280cd and 500i and I actually prefer the AN DAC. I think that most who are in tune with their equipment will be able to tell if a new piece has synergy with their system or not.

Another example of not so good synergy, I recently took the Krell 500i out of my main system and replaced it with Conrad Johnson separates, the 2 channel is fabulous but when using the HT side of things the MV60 tube power amp does not synergize with my Arcam 3 channel. Again, it's not bad, it's just that I can tell the synergy that was there before is not there. It would be interesting to see if some one who never heard my system what they thought but me knowing what it was before has to make a change. I plan to just separate the two systems and just switch speaker leads on the mains from HT to stereo as needed.

Bernd
01-12-2006, 12:54 AM
I believe that it is easier to find synergy with sticking to one brand, at least in the electronics. And if you are purchasing everything at once. It's more difficult to put separate pieces together for synergy if you have no point of reference.

Very good electronics can still not have synergy. I had an Arcam Alpha 9 CD player that was an incredible CD player but when I paired it up with a Krell 300i it wasn't bad but I wasn't overly happy with it either. I auditioned a Krell 250cd and although the Alpha 9 may have had an edge in detail the 2 Krell pieces gelled together to make a much preferred musical presentation. Conversely, I recently dropped an Audio Note DAC into my system between a Krell 280cd and 500i and I actually prefer the AN DAC. I think that most who are in tune with their equipment will be able to tell if a new piece has synergy with their system or not.

Another example of not so good synergy, I recently took the Krell 500i out of my main system and replaced it with Conrad Johnson separates, the 2 channel is fabulous but when using the HT side of things the MV60 tube power amp does not synergize with my Arcam 3 channel. Again, it's not bad, it's just that I can tell the synergy that was there before is not there. It would be interesting to see if some one who never heard my system what they thought but me knowing what it was before has to make a change. I plan to just separate the two systems and just switch speaker leads on the mains from HT to stereo as needed.

Well put,

I also think that most of us are in tune with our systems. It helps if somebody from the outside comments though.
When I changed the cartridge my wife came into the listening room and commented how much better it sounded downstairs. Really important input I think.

Bernd