Cheap DVD-Audio/SACD player?

[Mike Anderson]

I'm looking for an inexpensive DVD-Audio/SACD player. It doesn't need a super-high quality DAC, but it does need digital out because I'll be using an off-board Benchmark DAC1.

Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Mike

[Mike Anderson]

BTW, I'm looking for 2-channel sound through digital out, either 24/96 or 24/192, something that can go right into my DAC1. A player that does both DVD-A and SACD is preferable.

[noddin0ff]

My ignorance...Can you get a digital output for SACD? I though SACD players would only output SACD in analog form.

[Mike Anderson]

My ignorance...Can you get a digital output for SACD? I though SACD players would only output SACD in analog form.

I don't know, this is my first foray into this area. I read the other long thread about this topic, and there was something to this effect, but I couldn't tell exactly what they were talking about.

But I really know next to nothing about any of this; if someone can confirm, that'd be great, then I can focus solely on DVD-A.

All I know is I don't want to sink a lot of money into this technology if it isn't going to go anywhere. I'm looking to spend a couple hundred bucks (used is OK) and getting a handful of titles just to see what it sounds like on my new rig.

[kexodusc]

I have 2 players, one's a $300 ish Yamaha that I like a lot, the other is a Toshiba SD-4960 that plays SACD and DVD-A, that I paid about $90 for. The video performance is average on it, but sonically it sounds as good to me as the units I demoed when before buying the Yamaha. Can't beat it for the price.
Ugly silver though.

[noddin0ff]

I don't know, this is my first foray into this area. I read the other long thread about this topic, and there was something to this effect, but I couldn't tell exactly what they were talking about.

But I really know next to nothing about any of this; if someone can confirm, that'd be great, then I can focus solely on DVD-A.

I think its more or less a copy protection issue that would also apply to DVD-A. I don't think the players allow digital output of either SACD or DVD-A so you can't make digital copies. If you can find any Receivers that accept these formats that might hint at the answer.

[shokhead]

Yamaha DVD-S657 200 bucks

[Feanor]

I don't know, this is my first foray into this area. I read the other long thread about this topic, and there was something to this effect, but I couldn't tell exactly what they were talking about.
....
Of the likes of Yamaha DVC-6760 ($200) or 6770 ($300) that plays SACD, DVD-A, CD, and about anything else you can think of. You're no worse of with a changer than a single disc player.

Granted, for ideal CD sound, you can use a superb DAC like the Benchmark. As discussed, that won't work for SACD or DVD-A; for them, use changer's analog outputs.

[Mike Anderson]

I think its more or less a copy protection issue that would also apply to DVD-A. I don't think the players allow digital output of either SACD or DVD-A so you can't make digital copies. If you can find any Receivers that accept these formats that might hint at the answer.

So I can only use the analog outs to my regular (non-DVD-A/SACD equipped) amp?

Wow, that sucks. I have to buy a whole new amp/receiver if I want to use the digital signal; what crap. No wonder the technology never caught on.

Suppose one (hypothetically speaking of course) had software to decrypt/decode an SACD or DVD-A disc on one's computer, would one then be able to burn a new disc and send it to the DAC somehow?

[Woochifer]

I have 2 players, one's a $300 ish Yamaha that I like a lot, the other is a Toshiba SD-4960 that plays SACD and DVD-A, that I paid about $90 for. The video performance is average on it, but sonically it sounds as good to me as the units I demoed when before buying the Yamaha. Can't beat it for the price.
Ugly silver though.

Wow, you got yourself quite a cult favorite with that Toshiba unit, because it's a very popular model with modders. My understanding is that Toshiba inexplicably included Burr-Brown DACs with that budget universal player, and modders have talked incessantly about what's possible with that unit after upgrading the analog circuits and the power supply. BTW, get used to the silver color -- it's clearly on its way back after more than two decades of black dominating the market.

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Tosh_Samsung_4960_HD-841&Category_Code=MODS&Product_Count=22
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=12613&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=9896373a54923e1de72a19723d27f21c


I think its more or less a copy protection issue that would also apply to DVD-A. I don't think the players allow digital output of either SACD or DVD-A so you can't make digital copies. If you can find any Receivers that accept these formats that might hint at the answer.

Actually, HDMI 1.1 now allows for DVD-A signals to be passed through using the HDMI connection, provided that both the processor/receiver and DVD player are compliant with the 1.1 standard. HDMI 1.1 also allows for both video and audio signals to be carried on one cable, and for now the audio signals that HDMI carries are DD, DTS, and PCM (including CD audio, the MLP-encoded two-channel 192/24 and 5.1 96/24 PCM signals used in DVD-A, and other high res PCM tracks now available through other sources such as DualDisc and video DVDs). HDMI is a copy-protected digital connection, so it addresses the copy protection issues. The upcoming HDMI 1.2 revision will accommodate one-bit audio formats such as SACD, while version 1.3 is supposed to include the upcoming lossless DD+ and DTS-HD formats that will be included with HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

I think that with HDMI now allowing for DVD-A and SACD to use a digital output, it solves a lot of the idiotic restrictions that impeded the formats' growth, but it might be a case of too little too late. DVD-A and SACD are destined for niche status, which is too bad because I think multichannel music has a huge upside, but is just looking for an appropriate carrier format. IMO, high res digital audio's future very well might be tied to what happens with the new lossless audio formats that will accompany HD-DVD and Blu-ray.


So I can only use the analog outs to my regular (non-DVD-A/SACD equipped) amp?

Wow, that sucks. I have to buy a whole new amp/receiver if I want to use the digital signal; what crap. No wonder the technology never caught on.

There were many reasons why DVD-A and SACD never caught on, but a lot of the discs in these formats sound absolute astounding, especially the multichannel mixes. Any opportunity to revisit an album that might not have received a decent CD transfer is worthwhile in my view.

Keep in mind that DVD-A and SACD only require a six-channel analog input on your receiver, and almost any 5.1 receiver made within the last eight years will have this input on board.

If you're looking for unprotected high res PCM audio streams, some audiophile labels put out two-channel 96/24 PCM tracks onto video DVDs, and used all of the data for audio. These discs can output a 96/24 PCM bitstream using just a normal DVD video player. Classic Records, and Chesky put out several titles in this format. I bought The Alan Parsons Project's I, Robot and several classic Blue Note reissues in this format, and the sound quality of these discs is astounding. Keep in mind though that a lot of this might also have to do with the attention to detail and expert mastering engineers that outfits like Classic Records use when creating these discs.

http://www.classicrecords.com/frames/shopthecatalog_frameset.htm
(go to the "Classic D.A.D. 24/96 kHz digital format" search)

In addition, some DVD-A discs also include PCM tracks on the video-compatible layer in 96/24, 48/24, or other high resolutions combinations. DTS Entertainment's DVD-A discs in particular are excellent discs for people who don't own DVD-A players because they include high res PCM tracks and full bitrate DTS 5.1 tracks on the video-compatible layer (most DVD movies with DTS tracks only include a half-bitrate DTS track).


Suppose one (hypothetically speaking of course) had software to decrypt/decode an SACD or DVD-A disc on one's computer, would one then be able to burn a new disc and send it to the DAC somehow?

Don't know how that would be accomplished because the individual DVD-A and SACD discs are watermarked. SACD in particular would be difficult because there aren't any PC drives out there that can currently read SACDs in the first place. But, anything's possible, I suppose.

[jamison]

I can feel your pain , I personally think SACD/DVDA didnt take off because its too confusing to the casual enthusiest. first you have 2 formats and neither have taken off, people are first confused by that. secondly people get confused when they cant hook everything up via one cable, let alone 7 or more cables. then you have to have a reciever with muti channel inputs as well as some kind of bass management unless your just going to do 2 channel SACD. Then to top it off the titles are more expensive, the sound quality on a lot of releases leaves a lot to be desired. when everything is done right it does sound awesome, but my first SACD was Bostons first disc which i already had on cd. I put it in and gave it a hard listen, and it was hard to listen to it sounded godawful, my second SACD was aerosmiths greatest, not much better at all. im thinking wow this sucks. I bought a couple of DVDA's one of which was fleeetwood macs rumorus. now to me that sounded great,, a huge improvement. then i got Pink Floyd dark side of the moon and was blown away.
I think we might run into the same thing with the High def dvd formats coming out too. no wonder people are leery of new technologies.
I bought into laserdiscs in the late 80's and early nineties only to have that format go belly up when dvds caught on. now ive invested in sacd and dvda and thats not taking off, personally i think i will wait on getting the new DVD format. or at least buy an IPOD so i can listen to my boston while im walking.... ok now that ive vented i feel better

[Mike Anderson]

Actually, HDMI 1.1 now allows for DVD-A signals to be passed through using the HDMI connection, provided that both the processor/receiver and DVD player are compliant with the 1.1 standard. HDMI 1.1 also allows for both video and audio signals to be carried on one cable, and for now the audio signals that HDMI carries are DD, DTS, and PCM (including CD audio, the MLP-encoded two-channel 192/24 and 5.1 96/24 PCM signals used in DVD-A, and other high res PCM tracks now available through other sources such as DualDisc and video DVDs). HDMI is a copy-protected digital connection, so it addresses the copy protection issues. The upcoming HDMI 1.2 revision will accommodate one-bit audio formats such as SACD, while version 1.3 is supposed to include the upcoming lossless DD+ and DTS-HD formats that will be included with HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

OK I have a headache now!


If you're looking for unprotected high res PCM audio streams...

Is this something I can run into a Benchmark DAC1?



These discs can output a 96/24 PCM bitstream using just a normal DVD video player.

Hmmm... Unfortunately my present DVD player doesn't have a coax or digital digital out; will a typical DVD-A/SACD player play these?

[Woochifer]

I can feel your pain , I personally think SACD/DVDA didnt take off because its too confusing to the casual enthusiest. first you have 2 formats and neither have taken off, people are first confused by that. secondly people get confused when they cant hook everything up via one cable, let alone 7 or more cables. then you have to have a reciever with muti channel inputs as well as some kind of bass management unless your just going to do 2 channel SACD. Then to top it off the titles are more expensive, the sound quality on a lot of releases leaves a lot to be desired. when everything is done right it does sound awesome, but my first SACD was Bostons first disc which i already had on cd. I put it in and gave it a hard listen, and it was hard to listen to it sounded godawful, my second SACD was aerosmiths greatest, not much better at all. im thinking wow this sucks. I bought a couple of DVDA's one of which was fleeetwood macs rumorus. now to me that sounded great,, a huge improvement. then i got Pink Floyd dark side of the moon and was blown away.
I think we might run into the same thing with the High def dvd formats coming out too. no wonder people are leery of new technologies.
I bought into laserdiscs in the late 80's and early nineties only to have that format go belly up when dvds caught on. now ive invested in sacd and dvda and thats not taking off, personally i think i will wait on getting the new DVD format. or at least buy an IPOD so i can listen to my boston while im walking.... ok now that ive vented i feel better

I think you're right on with your points. There's so much that got botched with the DVD-A/SACD launch and subsequent format war. Unfortunately, you had way too many competing agendas tugging away at each other, and the resulting confusion and disinterest n the market was the outcome. I think that multichannel music has a future, but at the moment, the only format with any kind of momentum looks like DualDisc, and it's used more for providing video content than high res audio (the 48/16 tracks included with a lot of DualDiscs that are labeled as "Enhanced Stereo" hardly quality as high resolution IMO); plus, the multichannel audio is usually encoded in 5.1 Dolby Digital, which is an audibly degraded sounding format. You can still pick up on the multichannel imaging cues with DD, but it just doesn't give you the nuances that higher resolution and less compression can provide.

I think that Sony could have ended this whole format war from the outset by simply standardizing all of their CD release around the CD/SACD hybrid format. Having a copy protected format on board gives incentive for people to buy CDs, but they never got around to promoting the concept, and could never figure out whether SACD was a mass market format or a niche audiophile format.

The setup routines with the analog outputs I agree are absolutely absurd. The time that I had to spend recalibrating my system and tweaking with the settings so that I could match my bass management settings could have all been simplified by just allowing for a digital connection. With HDMI 1.2, we will have digital outputs available for DVD-A and SACD, but as I mentioned above, it might be too late to keep these formats from ever rising above niche status.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=14902

[Woochifer]

OK I have a headache now!

Trust me, this actually simplifies things a LOT compared to the setup that's currently used with the analog output restrictions.


Is this something I can run into a Benchmark DAC1?

Not familiar with that DAC, but if it can take a digital input from a CD transport or CD player, then it will definitely play through that DAC, provided that it can handle a 96/24 bitstream. Some of these 96/24 tracks (such as the ones by Chesky Records) will downsample the signal to 48/24 before outputing digitally as a copy protection measure.


Hmmm... Unfortunately my present DVD player doesn't have a coax or digital digital out; will a typical DVD-A/SACD player play these?

What DVD player are you using? All of them should have a digital audio output of some sort (if you use a PC drive, then you'll need a soundcard with digital audio output), and so long as the connection type is compatible with your DAC, you should be able to play the audio through your DAC.

[Mike Anderson]

Not familiar with that DAC, but if it can take a digital input from a CD transport or CD player, then it will definitely play through that DAC, provided that it can handle a 96/24 bitstream.

Yes, in fact it can handle 24/192:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/



Some of these 96/24 tracks (such as the ones by Chesky Records) will downsample the signal to 48/24 before outputing digitally as a copy protection measure.

:rolleyes:


What DVD player are you using? All of them should have a digital audio output of some sort

It's a Panasonic DVD-RV32. As far as i can tell, it only has RCA analog outs, and S-Video out.


(if you use a PC drive, then you'll need a soundcard with digital audio output), and so long as the connection type is compatible with your DAC, you should be able to play the audio through your DAC.

Ah, now you're talking. I do have a sound card that outputs 24/96 digital; so I can just pop one of those DVDs into my computer and do it that way? Are they WAV files?

I'll have to buy a 20ft coaxial cable, but that'd be a lot cheaper than buying a new DVD player.

[Mike Anderson]

BTW, looking at the Classic Recording site; what's the difference between the HDAD and D.A.D. releases -- can I get a 24/96 signal out of both?

Also, do you know of any other sources for this format? It's a bit of a limited selection there!

[noddin0ff]

Actually, HDMI 1.1 now allows for DVD-A signals to be passed through using the HDMI connection, provided that both the processor/receiver and DVD player are compliant with the 1.1 standard. (...and much much more)

Thanks, Wooch! Great primer, and a useful roadmap for future purchases if I ever get the $$!

[Woochifer]

It's a Panasonic DVD-RV32. As far as i can tell, it only has RCA analog outs, and S-Video out.

I looked it up, your DVD player has a digital audio output (obviously, you're not using it for multichannel playback right now!). Like most DVD players, it uses an optical Toslink connector rather than the coaxial connector that you might be more used to. Your DAC has a Toslink connection available. Just get an optical cable, and you should be good to go.


Ah, now you're talking. I do have a sound card that outputs 24/96 digital; so I can just pop one of those DVDs into my computer and do it that way? Are they WAV files?

I'll have to double check the media tags and file structure on those discs, but I'm pretty sure that they are not WAV files. These files are no different than any other video DVD, which have a layer of copy protection on them. They just allocate most of the disc space to high res audio rather than video. Keep in mind that you can't just dupe the files without using a de-CSS decrypting program (they've been ruled illegal, but you can still find them fairly easily on the internet), and even then I'm not sure what program you would use to output the digital audio out from your computer.


BTW, looking at the Classic Recording site; what's the difference between the HDAD and D.A.D. releases -- can I get a 24/96 signal out of both?

Only difference is that most of the DADs were released before the DVD-A format was finalized. Classic introduced the HDADs after DVD-A came onto the market. The HDADs are two-sided discs that have one side with a DVD-A layer with the audio encoded at 192/24, and the other side is a standard DVD video-compatible layer (playable on any DVD player) with the audio encoded at 96/24 resolution. Without a DVD-A player, then you would obviously use the DVD video-compatible side with the 96/24 tracks on them.


Also, do you know of any other sources for this format? It's a bit of a limited selection there!

Aside from Classic and Chesky, not a whole lot of other companies put out these open high res discs. This two-channel 96/24 audio spec has been with the DVD format from the beginning (DVDs must have EITHER a Dolby Digital or PCM soundtrack on board; most DVDs use the compressed DD format so that more of the disc space can go to video). But, not a lot of companies took advantage of it because they were waiting for the DVD-Audio format to be finalized (and not a lot of the record companies wanted their recordings to be released in this format because of their piracy concerns over any open high res digital format).

Once DVD-A came out, the market for these 96/24 discs diminished, because a regular DVD can only store enough data for a two-channel 96/24 track, while the MLP-encoded DVD-A format can give you a 5.1 multichannel 96/24 track AND a two-channel 192/24 track on the SAME DISC.

Occasionally though, you will see one of these open 96/24 discs pop up. For example, Neil Young recently packaged a 96/24 DVD with his newest Greatest Hits disc. Young apparently is a huge proponent of high res digital, and directed his record company to release his Greatest Hits album on an open 96/24 disc so that as many people as possible (not just those with DVD-A players) could hear his songs remastered in high res. I have that disc and the sound quality of the 96/24 disc is astonishingly good. The CD version that was prepared during the same mastering session also sounds quite good, but with that album, the 96/24 disc is the way to go.

Nowadays, you should look at DVD-A discs to see whether they include a two-channel PCM track on the video-compatible layer (all DVD-As are playable on regular DVD video players, but typically only include compressed DD audio tracks on the video-compatible layer, which are a noticeable step down from PCM).

DTS Entertainment in particular has been good about including high res PCM tracks with a lot of their releases. (They show the bit depth and sampling rates for each track on the package, so it's easy to identify the ones with high res PCM) And the sound quality of the 5.1 DTS tracks on those discs is also uniformly excellent.

You could also look at the DualDisc flipper discs. A lot of them provide "Enhanced Stereo" PCM tracks on the DVD layer, but the ones I've tried so far only include 48/16 resolution. The DVD layer has more than enough space to accommodate higher resolutions, but the packaging unfortunately does not tell you what resolution they used for the two-channel PCM tracks, and a lot of the space typically goes to video content.

[Mike Anderson]

I looked it up, your DVD player has a digital audio output (obviously, you're not using it for multichannel playback right now!). Like most DVD players, it uses an optical Toslink connector rather than the coaxial connector that you might be more used to. Your DAC has a Toslink connection available. Just get an optical cable, and you should be good to go.

Ah yes, you're right! I was bending over looking over the top of the machine to see the back, and didn't even notice the optical output because it doesn't protrude, but sure enough there is one.

Cool, well that saves me a few bucks!

Thanks for all the info Woochifer, you've been amazingly helpful. I'll let you know how it sounds.

[Mike Anderson]

Oh, one more thing -- recommendations on really good sounding 24/96 recordings are appreciated; I'll start another thread in the Rave Recordings section.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Mike Anderson]

Oh one more thing -- is there any way I can tell whether my machine is going to downsample the 24/96 signal to 48khz for a given disc?

And I noted on that Classic Records site, some (but not all) of the descriptions of the discs explicitly say the 24/96 recording is taken from the original master tapes -- if it doesn't say that, is it possible the disc is simply an up-sampled version of a 16/44 CD master?

[Woochifer]

Thanks for all the info Woochifer, you've been amazingly helpful. I'll let you know how it sounds.

Definitely do, I'd be curious to hear about your results with a high end DAC.


Oh, one more thing -- recommendations on really good sounding 24/96 recordings are appreciated; I'll start another thread in the Rave Recordings section.

Bucky Pizzarelli - Swing Live DVD-Audio version from Chesky
In surround, this is one of the most convincing "you are there" recordings I've ever heard. In two-channel, it's also an exceptionally well done recording. The video-compatible layer includes a 4.0 DD track and a two-channel 96/24 PCM track that downsamples to 48/24 when output digitally.

Alan Parsons Project - I, Robot from Classic Records
Impressively well recorded and mixed prog rock album that's been a popular demo disc for years; the Classic DAD is a clear step up from the CD and regular vinyl versions that I've heard -- only the Mobile Fidelity half-speed masters have the clean detail and depth that I hear with the DAD.

Neil Young - Greatest Hits
The double pack version includes a CD and 96/24 DVD; excellent package for conducting listening tests because both discs were done during the same mastering session; the analog sessions sound very lifelike, while the digital sessions that were upsampled from 44/16 masters sound less convincing.

Gershwin (Leonard Slatkin and the St. Louis Symphony) - All the Works for the Orchestra, and the Orchestra & Piano from Classic Records
This is not only a great recording, but a fine performance as well. This was originally recorded in discrete 4-channel for quadrophonic. This same performance was released last year on multichannel SACD by Mobile Fidelity, and I plan to buy this one soon so that I can hear it in its original 4-channel mix.

Muddy Waters - Folk Singer from Classic Records
Another very commonly played reference disc. The recording has a very intimate feel to it, and is a top to bottom great album from a legendary blues artist.

Hank Mobley - Roll Call from Classic Records
I would recommend any of the 96/24 DADs that Classic has done for Blue Note. The sound on these discs is tight and clean with raw and pure musicality. The Hank Mobley disc is my personal favorite of Classic's Blue Note reissues from a musical standpoint, but I would recommend any of them for pure listening enjoyment. John Coltrane's Blue Train is a also classic album, but the Classic transfer might be a bit hot in the highs for some tastes (Blue Note's own remastered version really bumped down the treble and made changes to the imaging).

Blue Man Group - The Complex DVD-Audio from DTS Entertainment
Can't remember if the PCM track on this disc is 96/24 or 48/24, but it's a great disc if you're into percussion. The surround mix of this is astounding in how well it creates a 360 degree listening experience. Other DVD-As from DTS Entertainment are also worth checking out (you can verify the bitdepth and sampling rates used on the PCM track by looking at the back cover of the disc).


Oh one more thing -- is there any way I can tell whether my machine is going to downsample the 24/96 signal to 48khz for a given disc?

No way to tell before putting the disc into your DVD player unfortunately. All of these 96/24 DVDs will be decoded at that resolution IF you use the DVD player's internal DACs, but the players will downsample the digital output if the disc has any copy protection restrictions encoded into it. (you might need to look over the audio setup options on your DVD player to check on how it handles copy protected 96/24 discs)

Another consideration is that some DVD players automatically downsample all high res PCM tracks before outputing the signal digitally. I know that the JVC player that my parents owned did this, but Toshiba and Denon models I've used will transfer the digital signal at full 96/24 resolution if the disc allows for that.

Personally, I wouldn't get too wound up about the sampling rate. Chesky and Classic take great care in how they do the transfers on their discs, and that should be obvious if you compare their DADs with the CD and even vinyl versions of some of those albums. IMO, that might have an even greater bottomline effect on the sound quality than the increased resolution provides.


And I noted on that Classic Records site, some (but not all) of the descriptions of the discs explicitly say the 24/96 recording is taken from the original master tapes -- if it doesn't say that, is it possible the disc is simply an up-sampled version of a 16/44 CD master?

Classic Records has very high standards for their releases, and they predominantly deal in 200 gram vinyl reissues. No reason for them to go with 44/16 CD masters.

My understanding is that they use the first generation vinyl version as their playback reference during the mastering process (they usually requisition a vault pressing along with the original master tape). One of the mastering engineers that they use is Bernie Grundman, and he's one of the top guys in the business. Whenever feasible, they also bring in the original producers and/or recording engineers to supervise the transfer, and advise on the original intent of the recording and any processing or EQ settings used in the original recording that need to be accounted for.

[westcott]

You can get a digital connection with some manufacuters like Meridian and Denon using proprietary connections and complimentary DVD Players like the Denon 3910.

Make sure that whatever you get, it has true bass managment for analog outputs, should these players be out of your price range.

[Mike Anderson]

Well I picked up an optical cable, and the Berlioz Reqiuem disc -- the only side my DVD player will play is the Video DVD side, so I take it that's what I should be playing to get the 24/96 audio.

It works, and it sounds OK - but not blowing me away. They could have gotten greater resolution by bumping up the levels a bit (it's too quiet), but that's typical of classical recordings.

Is there anyway I can confirm that I'm getting 24/96 audio? The Benchmark doesn't indicate what kind of signal it's taking in, only that it's PCM audio.

[Woochifer]

Well I picked up an optical cable, and the Berlioz Reqiuem disc -- the only side my DVD player will play is the Video DVD side, so I take it that's what I should be playing to get the 24/96 audio.

Without a DVD-A player, only the video-compatible layer will play on a regular DVD player.


It works, and it sounds OK - but not blowing me away. They could have gotten greater resolution by bumping up the levels a bit (it's too quiet), but that's typical of classical recordings.

"blowing away" implies that you know what the master source sounds like. What you might be observing is simply the limitations of the original recording.

96/24 resolution means that the noise floor is lower than with CDs, and one of the advantages of high res digital is the increased stability and linearity of the signal at low levels. Bumping up the levels does absolutely nothing with the resolution -- with uncompressed PCM, the signal is consistently at a 96 kHz/24-bit resolution no matter what the levels are.

Before you conclude that the 96/24 level is too low, you need to try the CD version for comparison. CDs are typically mixed and mastered with dynamic range compression so that they can maintain a higher prevailing level while avoiding the "digital zero" during peaks. No compression is needed with high res, and with the lower noise floor, all you need to do is bump up the volume on your system and you'll hear the music at the prevailing levels you want and get the larger dynamic peaks.


Is there anyway I can confirm that I'm getting 24/96 audio? The Benchmark doesn't indicate what kind of signal it's taking in, only that it's PCM audio.

Try the display function on your DVD player. It should tell you which audio track is playing. Some DVD players will also tell you the resolution of the PCM signal.

[shokhead]

I have a older cd and the olny recording info on it is DDD Digital which means?

[westcott]

You will never get 96/24 from SACD or DVD Audio no matter how you hook it up, analog or digital.

It really is a limitation of recording equipment, not the format.

Here are a couple of links I think you will find interesting. I think that what you discovered is that it really depends more on the quality of the recording than the format.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/DVD-AudioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/DVD-AudioSACD2.php

I would at least be careful if running a 5.1 system using these "better" formats.

Hope this helps.

[Mike Anderson]

Try the display function on your DVD player. It should tell you which audio track is playing. Some DVD players will also tell you the resolution of the PCM signal.

Oh I see, it's on the TV - I press Display and in the audio section of the window It says LPCM 1 * 96k24b, so I guess I'm good to go!

I've ordered the Gershwin, Muddy Waters, and Hank Mobley discs, I'll let you know how I like them.

Thanks again for all your advice, you've been extremely helpful.

[noddin0ff]

I have a older cd and the olny recording info on it is DDD Digital which means?
I think the DDD you see refers to 1) recording 2) master 3) media. On CDs the last letter is always D because CDs are digital. If the material was recorded analog and the master was made digital the CD will be ADD. If everything was done analog and then turned into CD it will be AAD. You tend to see the DDD's more prominently positioned on the label of older CD's because at the time 'all digital recording' was sexy.

[Woochifer]

You will never get 96/24 from SACD or DVD Audio no matter how you hook it up, analog or digital.

That would depend on the original recording. If it was done using that resolution (or a whole number multiple such as 48/24 or 192/24), then a 96/24 playback format will allow for transfer of the master without downsampling, dithering, or dynamic range compression, which is not currently the case with CDs.

You won't get 96/24 out of SACD because it is a one-bit format that uses a 2.822 MHz sampling rate. Not the same thing.


Here are a couple of links I think you will find interesting. I think that what you discovered is that it really depends more on the quality of the recording than the format.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/DVD-AudioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/DVD-AudioSACD2.php

Good links with good information, but as mentioned in the header, those articles are old and I think that they resort to some hyperbole to make their points, as evidenced by the "royal scam" implication in the title.

IMO, the primary benefit to DVD-A and SACD is that they afford a new opportunity to revisit albums that might have been poorly transferred to CD the first time around, to transfer newer recordings with minimal alteration to the signal (the downsampling process to 44.1/16 can purge a lot of data that was in the original source), and to finally let multichannel music see the light of day without resorting to the heavy compression that you see with lossy DD. The theoretical arguments IMO are moot if the bottom line impact of using high res is improved sound quality, irregardless of the primary causal factor.


I would at least be careful if running a 5.1 system using these "better" formats.

Careful? Agreed, but no different than with any other multichannel format. If you have a properly aligned and calibrated 5.1 setup, then DVD-A and SACD only need to be level matched to the default settings using the six-channel analog input. Getting to the proper alignment and calibration is a similar process that you would use to optimize DD and DTS playback.

[emorphien]

I've been happy with my Pioneer Elite DV-45A for SACD/DVD-A usage (primary reason I got it). I paid $240 shipped for a new one sealed in box off audiogon mid last year.

[Mike Anderson]

I've ordered the Gershwin, Muddy Waters, and Hank Mobley discs, I'll let you know how I like them.

Got the discs; I can indeed tell the difference between these and 16/44 CDs. The Mobley is incredible -- the brass is so realistic and in-your-face it's uncanny. You close your eyes and you'd swear there's a sax or trumpet player smack dab in front of you.

The Muddy Waters recording is also sweet; you can hear his fingers moving across the fretboard. Too bad they drowned it all in so much reverb, but that was the style of recording back then...

[Celtic Bob]

I just got the Yammy DVDS1500 player and hooked it up to my reciever via optical cable. It will only play the dvd side of a disc (Dual Disc) in PCM and not the 5.1 Will I have to hook it up via RCA cables to get the 5.1 mix to work?

[shokhead]

Should play as long as your sure its 5.1 the same as a movie DVD. Recheck the menu's.

[Celtic Bob]

The "Menu" has 2 options

Dolby Surround
Dolby Stereo

Both of these are PCM Stereo according to my reciever. :(

[shokhead]

What about your player?

[Celtic Bob]

player has both optical and 5.1 outs.
that what you meant?

[shokhead]

player menu setup right?

[Celtic Bob]

Player set up seems OK.
DVD's will allow me to choose 2.0 or 5.1 and it will play that way. When I choose it for a SACD or DVD-A it will only play 2ch

EDIT: the Joe Perry dual disc will play the 5.1 mix through the optical cable BUT the BonJovi dual disc will only play the 5.1 mix through the analog cables. This makes no sense to me.