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Feanor
12-28-2005, 04:45 AM
Note: I also posted this item at Audio Asylum ...
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/415807.html (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/415807.html)
It's "common knowledge" that DBTs, (double-blind tests), of properly functioning amplifiers reveal no differences amongst them. A few famous tests are quoted to demonstrate this assertion. Since most audiophiles know that amps do indeed sound different, many dismiss DBTs as irrelevant and become incensed at the mere mention of them. However they should not, because not all amplifier DBTs have, in fact, been negative.
The editors of Sound Advice magazine conducted a very rigorous DBT as well as other testing of a group of 19 "high-powered" amplifiers. Results were published in the summer of 1975 in Volume 1 Number 1 of that publication. I still have a copy of the magazine. The publisher of Sound Advice was Edward S. Wodenjak and the Editor & Technical Director was J. Peter Moncrieff. To my knowledge, the magazine was short-lifed, publishing only a few editions.

A total of 19 amplifier models were tested. Amps tested included ARC Dual 75, Crown DC300A, Dynaco 400, Harmon Kardon Citation 16, McIntash 2300, Phase Linear 400, Sony TAN-8550 (early FET design), and Infinity Switching Amp (SWAMP) 500; in some cases multiple examples of a given model were tested. Source material was original master tapes recorded using a Ampex 351-2 recorder and Neumann U-65 microphones. Listening was done through Stax SRX and SR3 and Koss ESP-9 electrostatic headphones, and KLH 9, Ohm F, ESS Heil Tower, and Infinity Monitor II speakers, (amongst others).

I am neither a scientist nor engineer, but it seems to me based on the detailed description of the testing procedures that very great, and apparently rigorous, pains were take to remove any experimental bias. All amps were very carefully match for volume to +/- .05 dB. It must be noted that switching devices were, in fact, used that permitted rapid switching between amps.

As well as A-B'ing amps against each other, the editors employed another blind test approach that they described as "straight wire bypass". In essence a line level signal was feed from the tape player through a "straight wire" to either headphones, or a reference amp and speakers; an alternate circuit could be selected that included the test amp. Hence testers could listen for differences that could be attributed to the test amplifier. The editors admitted that did limit the test conditions for the test amp to a very benign situation, but that the procedure did remove the tester's preference in judging the accuracy of the amplifier with respect to source.

The editors also defined specific set of descriptions covering various aspects of sound in order to minimize semantic vagaries. Complete neutrality, i.e. faithfulness to the source, was the declared benchmark for all aspects. To make a very long story, (as told in detail over 19 page in Sound Advice, clear differences could be heard among all of the amplifiers and these were report in some detail for each amplifier. The editors also rated the amps overall.

To me this Sound Advice report demonstrated that (1) DBTs work, and (2) that amplifiers do indeed sound different from each other. Testing of this scope and rigor just don't happen very often. Obviously it is complex and therefore costly to carry out. It isn't unreasonable to assume that Sound Advice folded simply because it couldn't afford to keep on conducting tests of the type of this one for amplifiers.

Based on the Sound Advice report I confidently purchased my Phase Linear 400 amp, the top-rated amp, which I used as my main amp for 25 years. With respect to the Phase Linear 400, the editors admitted the then already common dislike for this amp's sound. To quote the editor, "We're only human, and we admit to having shared this prejudice against the Phase 400. In a small way, it's measure of the objectivity of our blindfold testing procedures that this prejudice had no way of creeping into the results of our tests. We were utterly flabbergasted when we discovered that in our early A-B comparisons the amplifier which sounded dramatically cleaner and more revealing turned out to be, when we removed our blindfold status, the Phase 400. We obtained a second Phase 400 ... the two Phase 400's kept coming back to the surface. ... This, however, occurred on high quality program material: master tapes and low distortion discs. On the majority of discs, the Phase 400 does sound hard and unpleasantly bright. Unless you are skilled at listening through distortion to hear the added music which such a revealing amplifier will give you, you might want to write off the Phase 400 as a purist's amplifier."

Hence this old report demonstrated something else to me: that audiophiles commonly are not looking for accurate but for euphonic sound. And what is euphonic is not always high fidelity. We should bear in mind that when another audiophile reports that a piece of equipment sounds "musical", "involving", "toe-tapping" and any of many other such highly subjective terms, that he/she isn't talking high fidelity.

Swerd
12-28-2005, 06:55 AM
Thanks for the interesting post. I'd like to read that article. Is there any way you can post it? At the worst, could you mail me a xerox copy? I can scan it and then produce a pdf file of it.

I'm a lab scientist with an amateur interest in blind testing of audio products. Most blind tests that I've read about were done by reviewers or writers who had some good knowledge of audio but no scientific training, especially in experimental design. Any experiment is only as good as the control tests that were done at the same time. With blind tests, these controls should indicate what kind of differences in sound were and were not actually audible to the listeners. Considering how some audiophiles attack blind testing methods, you can imagine how well-designed control tests might allow for broader conclusions of much more validity than any we've commonly seen. The only blind listening tests I know of that come close to this are the ones published by Floyd Toole and Sean Olive involving speakers.

An other intersting read is a short interview of an electrical engineer named Bob Cordell who has had past experience with amplifier design. He is now active in DIY speaker building, which is how I met him. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm
Scroll down to read his answer to this question: Someone recently said that if not driven to clip, all SS sound the same. Do all SS amps sound the same?

Feanor
12-28-2005, 09:05 AM
...
I'm a lab scientist with an amateur interest in blind testing of audio products. Most blind tests that I've read about were done by reviewers or writers who had some good knowledge of audio but no scientific training, especially in experimental design. Any experiment is only as good as the control tests that were done at the same time... The only blind listening tests I know of that come close to this are the ones published by Floyd Toole and Sean Olive involving speakers.

An other intersting read is a short interview of an electrical engineer named Bob Cordell who has had past experience with amplifier design. He is now active in DIY speaker building, which is how I met him. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm
Scroll down to read his answer to this question: Someone recently said that if not driven to clip, all SS sound the same. Do all SS amps sound the same?
Cordell admits that amps don't all sound the same and his explanations are likely right, at least as far as they go, as there might be additional factors.

RobotCzar
12-29-2005, 08:25 AM
"Since most audiophiles know that amps do indeed sound different, many dismiss DBTs as irrelevant and become incensed at the mere mention of them."

I wonder if you have taken a poll? Perhaps most "audiophiles" who spend a lot of time and money on audio equipment thing amps sound different (along with cables and power cords), but we don't even know that. I will also note that it is completely unscientific to assume the results of a valid test is wrong becuase you "know" it is. In fact, is is probably impossible to think of a statement that is more unscientific than that.

Based on what "audiophiles" say, the equipment of 1975 is not good enough to hear subtle or "huge" audible differences, so who cares what they say?

Let me also point out that one test does not "prove" or disprove anything in a single instance of perceptual testing. But, if done right, such a test provides evidence. Not knowing the details of the test (e.g., no results are provided, including statistics), it is hard to judge the results. One could speculate that amps in 1975, which were among the first or second generation of high-powered SS amps, may have some audible defects, whiich could be seen in measurements. We needed replication of this test in 1975 and we certainly need one now.

"Hence this old report demonstrated something else to me: that audiophiles commonly are not looking for accurate but for euphonic sound."

This is a very very key point. Most people, it seems to me, judge audio by some subjective standard of beauty or lushness. Accuracy is not the gold standard, especially because there is no way to judge the accuracy of the music most people listen to (i.e., there is no reference as there is for concert hall music and some jazz). Because of this point, most people are judging the "sound" of audio equipment based on purely subjective grounds---grounds that, by definintion, apply only to the person doing the listening and of little use to anybody else (unless we think that most people have a similar view of "euphonic" sound.

I'm kind of annoyed this article wasn't mentioned long ago and more details provided.

Feanor
12-29-2005, 02:42 PM
...
I'm kind of annoyed this article wasn't mentioned long ago and more details provided.
I have no issue with any of your points which are wholely valid.

It has been in my mind to talk the Sound Advice article for a couple of years. What has held me back, of course, is the practicality of distributing it while it is still likely under copywrite protection. It is very lengthy running 19 page of fine print; to paraphrase it isn't very practical.

In the AA forum I caught a lot scorn for even mentioning it. Those who have choosen to believe that DBTs have proven that amplifier differences are inaudible were quite dismissive of the results even though they had not read the article.

Granted, the authors had not framed their test in such a way that it could withstand scientific peer scrutiny. For example, they did not record details of trials, nor subject the results to statistical analysis. Nevertheless I believe that they did describe their approach and setup sufficiently well that the test could be repeated by anyone. Those who are doubtful ought to try that instead of just blowing it off.

If anyone is sufficiently interested, i.e. prepared to repeat the experiment with modern amps, or at least offer a real, scientific opinion of the test design, then I would be willing to get a copy of the article to them one way or another.

happy ears
01-19-2006, 02:05 PM
You can never win this arguement regardless which side you are on. They only proved that 19 amps sounded different, we cannot make the blanket statement that all amps sound different. Sorry some people do not hear the difference (saved themselves a pile of money) while others do not care, my ex-wife always told me that she never heard any difference and I was a fool, but one day when I was in the next room she told a friend that she did hear differences she just didn't care. Two different arguements in my eyes or ears.

I wish I didn't hear the differences! When I first entered this hobby I did not believe many of the things that I had heard, yeah like wire can make a difference or even better a powercord can make a difference pull the other leg guys the left one is becoming longer. Many years latter what makes a difference any and everything in the signal path can change the sound sometimes small other times much more noticeable. Every component device cable starting at the source and ending at the speakers can affect the sound. No matter what equipment you have it will color and flavour the the sound of the music your are listening to.

It's gotten worse overtime, lately I have been buying used equipment and then upgrading to see what improvements can be made. Can you every get some great deals at the pawn shop and I will probably never buy new again as used is half price and less. What do I do with this equipment simply give it to people who truly love their music but cannot afford better equipment. Trying to convince a friend to let me overhual her Klipsch speakers, just a simple upgrade dear, new boxes and completly overhualed crossover to start with sooner or latter she will fold.

I was hoping that as I got older that these differences would disappear but have not been lucky there yet, heck my eighty year old father still hears the differences. Waited many years to say this to him as he always said you listen to your music to loud son. Was visting my parents and had been there over an hour when he came upstairs and said oh did not even know you where here son, well of course not dad you listen to your music to loud after a pause and a smile he said it's your fault that you gave me this equipment. Then I asked was it any better and even my mother smiled said the radio is so clear and records have never sounded so good no matter where you are in the house, had to laugh on that one.

So if you do not hear any differences this is fine and spend your money on something else but for us poor suckers that hear I difference let us spend our money they way we wish. Damn I wish I didn't hear the differences at times

Happy Listening

Feanor
01-20-2006, 03:35 AM
You can never win this arguement regardless which side you are on.
...
Happy Listening
Statistically, if 19 amps sounded differenct, what chance they happen to be the only ones in creation that actually do sound different?

Anyway, though I still do hear difference even at age 60 and no hearing above 10kHz. It was less that two years ago that I got to compare a Monarchy SM-70 Pro with my then recently acquired NAD C270. I was totally amazed at the increase in resolution and transparency as well as bass improvement -- I really hadn't expected to hear any real difference at all. I didn't buy the Monarch but instead a Bel Canto.

Nevertheless there is a point beyond with difference really do become insignificant as far as I'm concerned. Super-tiny differences among, let's say, cables and interconnects -- to the extent that they're real and not just my imagination -- are irrelevant.

happy ears
01-25-2006, 11:58 AM
Yes I would tend to agree with you in that most amps sound the different, however some do sound the same. The ones that sound the same tend to use similar parts and design so it makes sense that they would sound the same.

My father is 78 years old and still hears the differences but he is not suppose to be able to hear these differences. Guess what my mother also hears the differences and she is almost as old. It is good to hear that even with age and a loss of hearing that you are still able to hear the differences. Just wish the improvements in sound did not cost so much, it would be nice if most people could afford it.

Oh oh you can still hear super tiny differences and no it's not your imagination, so enjoy for as long as you can hear it. Trust your ears.

Have a Great day