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ex-28
12-25-2005, 10:15 PM
i ahve a 50" samsung dlp 1 month old , pols all around , i have a cheap - o - dvd player with progressive scan , i hook all video direct to my tv and audio all through reciver.

i was looking at buying a new dvd player , wit upscaleing
just so i could take advantage of the upscaling on it , as it will produce a better image quality,

now, i am buying a new reciver in 2 months , onkyo 803 which has component and hdmi video upscaling built into it, so am i wasting $150 by buying a dvd player with upscaling when the reciver will be capable of doing this anyways , but doing it this way i would have to have the video running through the reciver.

my thoughts are is that the dvd player would upscale it better then the reciver would
but then it gonna cost $150 cad more ,,


just wondering on what everyonhes ideas are on thes mater and any info is greatlly appreciated,

ex

robert393
12-26-2005, 07:30 AM
IMO the less video switching the better. I don't like running the video signal through the reciever. It introduces video noise (resulting in a "softer" picture").

You have a nice DLP monitor, why not get a good P-Scan DVD player and connect it DIRECTLY to the monitor for best PQ? That would be my recommendation.

Robert

L.J.
12-26-2005, 08:21 AM
I agree with Robert.


I'd run all my Video directly to my TV if possible.

ex-28
12-26-2005, 03:27 PM
do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

wondering if i will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

L.J.
12-26-2005, 03:59 PM
do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

wondering if i will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

You could always try it out. Decide for yourself if what you gain(or don't) is worth the extra cash.

I would just hold on to my existing player though. You said its P-Scan, so no doubt your getting a flawless picture already.

Unless your looking to get into SACD & DVD-A, save your self some money.

ex-28
12-26-2005, 05:43 PM
ok thats what i was thinking, do p-scan players have an option to turn on and off the p-scan ?

L.J.
12-26-2005, 06:05 PM
ok thats what i was thinking, do p-scan players have an option to turn on and off the p-scan ?

Yes, and it has to hooked up with at least component cables.

bobsticks
12-26-2005, 06:29 PM
My experience with upscaling has largely been a positive one. I'm using an older samsung that, while obviously flawed, has definite benifits. You will find a significant increase in the sharpness of the picture, especially on that dlp.
Be aware that these things are rarely perfect and I had to go through three units to find one that didn't skew my colors. Also, once you get the right unit on a properly calibrated monitor, they are extraordinarily unforgiving of weak source material. Occasionally, I have been able to tell a director's afterthoughts or scenes shot with inferior film stock because of the pronounced differences.
All that having been said, the options for DVD-A/SACD are worth the cost alone and if the particular film of choice can't bare scrutiny just flip the upscaler off.

evil__betty
12-26-2005, 08:30 PM
i am buying a new reciver in 2 months , onkyo 803 which has component and hdmi video upscaling built into it, so am i wasting $150 by buying a dvd player with upscaling when the reciver will be capable of doing this anyways , but doing it this way i would have to have the video running through the reciver.

FYI

The Onkyo 803 does not do HDMI upconversion, just HDMI switching - don't want you to be bummed out when you get it home only to realize it doen't do that.

ex-28
12-26-2005, 09:19 PM
ok great for all the info all , i have a harmon kardon now , 3 yr old avr 210 but i'm not 100 5 happy with the sound output as i watch mostlly movies , so going to try out the onkyo,.

ex-28
01-14-2006, 11:27 PM
Samsung DVD_HD850 dvd player picked up last week al ic an say is hello quality !

verry nice unit and no probs playing anything on it , jsut wish it woudl show time remaining on a disc.

My player , click me (http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Hi_DefConversionDVDPlayers/DVD_HD850XAA.asp) .

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-15-2006, 12:26 PM
Every review I have read concerning upscaling players has not really been very good. If you have a HD television, I would rely on that to upscale the DVD's 480P signal to the television native resolution. Or get an external scaler/video processor to do the upscaling chores. I am not sure that the protocol for HDMI is stable enough in its current form to use the HDMI inputs for upscale. Most reviewers have found that the HDMI output from upscaling DVD players either skewed the color, added noise, or presented no picture at all.

edtyct
01-15-2006, 02:42 PM
Sir TT,

I respectfully disagree. Despite a few glitches here and there, a digital video feed is potentially the happiest complement to a digital display, and upscaling from a DVD player to a digital display can sometimes offer a few more lines of resolution than a TV's internal processing can (DVD players also tend to trump TVs when it comes to progressive signal processing as well via any connection). In rare cases, the HDMI handshake can fail, or the wrong color space might be sent to a DVI sink, but, on the whole, the HDMI video experience can be favorable. When DVI was introduced, it was much more problematical than HDMI, mainly because mfgrs hadn't worked out the kinks or figured out the difference between video black levels and computer black levels. The HDMI audio experience at this point is another matter altogether, however. Nonetheless, HDMI's superiority over component video is not assured in every case, and is usually not so dramatic that an upgrade to it is obligatory.

Ed

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-16-2006, 01:09 PM
Sir TT,

I respectfully disagree. Despite a few glitches here and there, a digital video feed is potentially the happiest complement to a digital display, and upscaling from a DVD player to a digital display can sometimes offer a few more lines of resolution than a TV's internal processing can (DVD players also tend to trump TVs when it comes to progressive signal processing as well via any connection). In rare cases, the HDMI handshake can fail, or the wrong color space might be sent to a DVI sink, but, on the whole, the HDMI video experience can be favorable. When DVI was introduced, it was much more problematical than HDMI, mainly because mfgrs hadn't worked out the kinks or figured out the difference between video black levels and computer black levels. The HDMI audio experience at this point is another matter altogether, however. Nonetheless, HDMI's superiority over component video is not assured in every case, and is usually not so dramatic that an upgrade to it is obligatory.

Ed

Ed,
You and I do not disagree about the potiential benefits of the HDMI connections, and the sucesses that have been out there. I am just pointing out that magazines such as hometheater, and sound and vision have reviewed upconverting DVD players and have not had the sucess that other folks have. While I do have a upconverting DVD player(don't really need it, I have a broadcast quality upconverter on my video switcher that ouputs everything in HDMI), the reviews I have read in those magazines have not been promising.

Some issues they have come up with;

No 5.1 sound from version 1.1
The inablilty to use the coaxial outputs for sound when the HDMI connection is used
Sometime no communications between brands of TV and certain upscaling DVD players
The only way to get the most out of this input is to wait until version 1.3 comes out.

edtyct
01-16-2006, 03:22 PM
Points taken. HDMI 1.3 should eliminate most of the growing pains. I see the audio ones being more debilitating at the moment than the video ones, though anyone who's had problems getting his components to shake hands won't thank me for saying so.

How has your 975V held up? I liked that player a lot (especially as an SACD player), aside from its well-documented failures and its transmission of a faulty color space with upconverted material. Do you use its HDMI output even though you don't upconvert with it?

Smokey
01-16-2006, 03:42 PM
Do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

Wondering if I will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

If better picture interpreted as better resolution and quality, then the answer would be no. The highest resolution ouputed by DVD player max out at 480, and can not get better resolution even if upscaled to HD. IMO, just stick with progressive scan :)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-16-2006, 05:58 PM
How has your 975V held up? I liked that player a lot (especially as an SACD player), aside from its well-documented failures and its transmission of a faulty color space with upconverted material. Do you use its HDMI output even though you don't upconvert with it?

Yes I use it. I know this player has gotten pretty sour reviews, but I must have gotten a late production model becuase I didn't have any of the problems that have been mentioned about this player. It largely just outputs the signals with no processing, and lets the GV do all of the processing work. Since the GV is programmable card based, the DVD player's video characteristic can be analyzed, and processing used to compensate for its weaknesses, and output a signal of excellent quality. This process can be programmed onto a video card, along with the best suited algorythms for upconversion for the Toshiba 65" which allows it to capture both 1080i and 1080p output from the processor. The combo of the player and processor makes for a very beautiful upconverted DVD picture. What I cannot wait for is the 1080p signal from a Bluray disc!

edtyct
01-17-2006, 06:15 AM
The Toshiba won't input 1080p, will it? Or does the processor convert all signals first to 1080p before sending them out at 1080i?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-17-2006, 10:02 AM
The Toshiba won't input 1080p, will it? Or does the processor convert all signals first to 1080p before sending them out at 1080i?

Out of the box the Toshiba will not do 1080p. However when I purchased my Grass Valley switcher, GV installed their own HDMI connection that essentially turns the Toshiba into just a display(removes all internal processing out of the chain), and enables it to display a 1080p image. . They say this allows them to program video cards that maximize the display characteristics of the Toshiba. I cannot tell you what they did techical wise to the RPTV, but the end result was astounding to these eyes. On test patterns it can resolved the full 1920x1080 test image with no problem. The difference before I got the GV and the new HDMI hookup and after is not subtle at all.

The thing I like most about the GV processor is that it analyzes the incoming signal, and applies only the amount of processing needed to present the Toshiba with the best quality signal. Some DVD's require alot of processing, some very little.

The whole process was pretty expensive, using up all of my video budget for this year, but it sure in the hell was worth every penny. I have not seen video quality this good outside a mastering facility.

edtyct
01-17-2006, 10:14 AM
Sounds spectacular, this new pro monitor of yours. I assume that Grass Valley handles the broadcast hardware at your station. Just curious: Did anyone calibrate the monitor to pro specs? You've got to use your connections to score something in true 1080p, hot off the presses.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-17-2006, 10:34 AM
Sounds spectacular, this new pro monitor of yours. I assume that Grass Valley handles the broadcast hardware at your station. Just curious: Did anyone calibrate the monitor to pro specs? You've got to use your connections to score something in true 1080p, hot off the presses.

LOL Ed, you are spot on ole chap, GV does all of the video processing in our station. My monitor was calibrated to the same standards as our video monitors in the master control room. It was those monitors that I saw how good uncompressed HD really looks.

This is the second RPTV I have had special work on. It seems that CRT's have a great deal of tweakability according to GV, and the technician I worked with said he is sorry to see CRT's go.

Supamike
01-17-2006, 10:43 AM
FYI

The Onkyo 803 does not do HDMI upconversion, just HDMI switching - don't want you to be bummed out when you get it home only to realize it doen't do that.
Just curious... what's the benefit/point of HDMI if most people seem to think that video should go directly to the set and bypass the receiver?

edtyct
01-17-2006, 10:48 AM
CRTs and LCoS are the only technologies that belong in a pro context. Do you guys use the Sony PVM-20L5 monitors in the studio? You really should have an open house so that people can see how good TV can look when attention is paid to the right details. Once people actually see HD, they have trouble resisting it. When enough people see how good HD, or anything else, can look with a properly driven monitor, maybe we can actually raise the bar.

edtyct
01-17-2006, 11:05 AM
In rely to Supamike, it's not a huge deal, but the simplest signal path is generally the best one. Going directly to the monitor eliminates a certain potential for signal degradation or failure, though, unless an intermediary stage is really faulty, a digital connection isn't in as much jeopardy as an analog one. Receivers are relatively new to the HDMI game; TVs and DVD players beat them to the punch. The main point of HDMI is HDCP copy protection, but a happy by-product is that digital video can measure and look sharper than analog component. But sending HDMI audio to a TV makes little sense in the long run, since TVs don't do audio. The earliest version of HDMI managed only two channels, anyway, meaning that most people treated HDMI like DVI, running separate coaxial or optical cables to their sound systems from the source. Receivers and pre/pros with HDMI capability can make the connection a lot more valuable by cutting out the need for a separate audio cable, although sometimes HDMI still sends two-channel audio in multichannel contexts through a switcher connected to certain displays. If the handshake sends the wrong info, HDMI can fail to deliver what's expected (kind of like freemasons shaking hands the wrong way).

Supamike
01-17-2006, 11:46 AM
Thanks... that helps. I'm not trying to hijack this post, it's just that I'm saving for a receiver and speakers right now (since folks here talked me out of the HTIB), and I'm just trying to get my arms around it all before I make a purchase. I've been told "HDMI is a must have", "HDMI is immature and isn't worth it", "you won't notice the difference between DVI and HDMI", "THX says a lot about receiver quality", "THX is a marketing gimmick"... and so on. Right now, HDMI means nothing to me since my TV doesn't have an HDMI port. However, I plan to purchase an HDTV set within the next 1-2 years, so I don't know whether to plan for the future, build for the present, wait another year, or what. lol! I think buying a car is easier...

GMichael
01-17-2006, 11:58 AM
So, um, was upconverting good or no? I think I missed the answer.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-17-2006, 12:01 PM
CRTs and LCoS are the only technologies that belong in a pro context. Do you guys use the Sony PVM-20L5 monitors in the studio? You really should have an open house so that people can see how good TV can look when attention is paid to the right details. Once people actually see HD, they have trouble resisting it. When enough people see how good HD, or anything else, can look with a properly driven monitor, maybe we can actually raise the bar.

Ed,
I might in the future do an open house for HDTV demonstrations, however the station is undergoing major infrastucture upgrading to HD and HD audio formats, displays and fiber optics that it is probably too dangerous to have one now.

We primarly use the Sony LMD 210S which is the upgraded model to the PVM-20L5 monitor. We are pretty much going flat panel these days, and the LMD can do everything the PVM can do, and takes up less space.

wordsmith
01-18-2006, 12:10 PM
Just to add my experience.
I am using a Denon 1920 upconverting to 720p on an Epson TW600 - using the HDMI connection of course.
And it blows the component input clean out of the water!
This is a really involving image, with the amazing contrast of 5000:1 delivered by the Epson.
I upgraded from an Epson TW200 - and when I did I had to get a bigger screen. (My projection distance is about 7 metres onto a screen 2.8m wide). No real apparent difference between the 720p and the 1080i (except the image has to be even bigger).
Until HD really gets sorted out - and the discs come down to a reasonable price - this seems about as good as it'll get for some time without having a lot of hassle and costing very serious money.

edtyct
01-18-2006, 12:39 PM
So, um, was upconverting good or no? I think I missed the answer.GM, you got me as the booby prize again. The answer flew by you because it's yet another of those pesky contingencies. Most of us agree that an HDMI video connection stands a good chance to be the sharpest and least noisy option, especially for microdisplays. The caveat is that HDMI audio doesn't always cooperate or have an outlet, requiring a separate audio connection for HDMI sources--that is, unless the component in question doesn't allow one (a rarity)--and every so often the video handshake has been known to fail out of the box between a source and its target. I've experienced firsthand lots of HDMI and DVI connections, and never had a video problem. All in all, I wouldn't let the possible glitches deter me from an HDMI DVD player right now if, like wordsmith, I wanted to make sure that I left no stone unturned for PQ. I might think twice about an HDMI receiver or pre/pro because of problems like those documented in another thread, unless I were satisfied with an analog workaround if the video switching failed for some reason or if I didn't mind using analog connections for audio that HDMI can't pick up in its current version. By the time HDMI 1.3 arrives, we'll all have HDMIdentities, at least until the next connection supervenes.

GMichael
01-18-2006, 12:46 PM
GM, you got me as the booby prize again. The answer flew by you because it's yet another of those pesky contingencies. Most of us agree that an HDMI video connection stands a good chance to be the sharpest and least noisy option, especially for microdisplays. The caveat is that HDMI audio doesn't always cooperate or have an outlet, requiring a separate audio connection for HDMI sources--that is, unless the component in question doesn't allow one (a rarity)--and every so often the video handshake has been known to fail out of the box between a source and its target. I've experienced firsthand lots of HDMI and DVI connections, and never had a video problem. All in all, I wouldn't let the possible glitches deter me from an HDMI DVD player right now if, like wordsmith, I wanted to make sure that I left no stone unturned for PQ. I might think twice about an HDMI receiver or pre/pro because of problems like those documented in another thread, unless I were satisfied with an analog workaround if the video switching failed for some reason or if I didn't mind using analog connections for audio that HDMI can't pick up in its current version. By the time HDMI 1.3 arrives, we'll all have HDMIdentities, at least until the next connection supervenes.

Is upscaling tied to HDMI?

The reason for me being interested is that I am looking at the Sanyo Z4 projectors (if I don't change my mind by summer). The main knock they seem to have is that they don't upscale very well and most suggest another unit to upscale and then send 720p to it.

First, is upscaling any good at all.
Second, do you need HDMI cables to send 720p?

edtyct
01-18-2006, 01:04 PM
Yeah, DVD upscaling is tied to HDMI or DVI. It can be just what the doctor ordered in cases like yours, when the projector or display can't meets its own scaling requirements adequately. A player (or any other device) that upscales to the precise resolution of the display--say, 720 or 1080--is in the best position. Scaling to 720 for a display at 768 still leaves work for the display to do, but still may be worthwhile. External upscaling should be regarded as only an option, not a necessity, but it is often the better option, even if the DVD player isn't particularly expensive. It isn't foolproof (nothing is), but it usually comes out ahead, even if the difference in many cases isn't earthshattering. You'll need an HDMI cable. If you keep it as short as possible, you may not have to spend much more than $20 on it. Incidentally, the only reason why players don't upscale through component is because of an agreement with source providers that it only be done through digital copy protection.

GMichael
01-18-2006, 01:17 PM
OK, starting to catch on now. I'll try to retain it for more than... uh, what was I saying?

Thanks Ed

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-18-2006, 01:43 PM
Just to add my experience.
I am using a Denon 1920 upconverting to 720p on an Epson TW600 - using the HDMI connection of course.
And it blows the component input clean out of the water!
This is a really involving image, with the amazing contrast of 5000:1 delivered by the Epson.
I.

That contrast ratio is more like 1000:1 not 5000:1. I know of no LCD based panel or projectors that come anywhere near 5000:1. Not even the Sony Qualia does.

GMichael
01-18-2006, 01:53 PM
That contrast ratio is more like 1000:1 not 5000:1. I know of no LCD based panel or projectors that come anywhere near 5000:1. Not even the Sony Qualia does.

Do any of these count?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/parts_compare.cfm?pid_1=3025&pid_2=3017&pid_3=3009&pid_4=2760&pid_5=2756&exp=1&x=22&y=14

edtyct
01-18-2006, 03:13 PM
Those high contrast numbers, you'll notice, are "full on/full off," which is the mfgr-friendly way to measure them. It means the difference between an all-dark screen and a peak-white screen. But that kind of measurement has little real-world value. Most dark images have to share space with a little light. With LCDs, a little illumination goes a long way. The bright part of the picture infects the darker part, bringing up its black level, often considerably. When contrast is measured on test screens that take this important phenomenon into account, the ratio goes WAY down.

GMichael
01-18-2006, 05:40 PM
So how do we find out the real numbers outside of a testing studio?

edtyct
01-18-2006, 07:00 PM
You really can't find out the real numbers without the proper equipment, or reading comprehensive reviews. If you see inflated numbers in mfgr's specs, you'll know how they achieved them. The more valuable test screen has a checkerboard configuration, which allows a direct measure of how much the black squares are affected by the white ones. You can even do nonquantitative tests yourself in a dark room using some of the screens on DVE or AVIA. LCDs are the definitely the worst in this respect because of scattered light from the lamp. That doesn't mean that you can't get a good picture from them, only that their best black level is achieved when the room has a certain amount of ambient light. Aperture control and dimness settings for the lamp can help, but at the cost of brightness and perhaps a few other drawbacks along the way.

GMichael
01-18-2006, 07:09 PM
OK, I guess I'll have to dig deeper.

Thanks

Sir Terrence the Terrible
01-19-2006, 07:56 AM
Ed,
I am giving you a new name. You are now and forever to be known as Sir Ed, Audioreview's television technology guru(as I tap both shoulders and head with my sword)

Since Woodman is no longer with us, you are now his replacement. Congratulations and good luck! (mental note, I just love all of the pagentry of giving new titles to the cool people on this board)

edtyct
01-19-2006, 08:30 AM
Sir TT,

It's a heavy mantle, and I'm not sure that it shouldn't spread out a little more, but at the very least, I hope that you have the blade facing sideways when you bring the sword down on my head and shoulders. I've always thought that my computer time would be borrowed while work on my house continued, but I'll do my best to stick around when I have more freedom of movement. It's nice to know that some of us can inject a little video into the old audio review. Thanks for the kind words, and the title. I'll be sure to wear my name tag when I'm out on the prowl tilting at the odd windmill.

Ed