AC Power Cable suggestions please

[SpartanFan]

I'm interested in buying a replacement power cable for my Cambride Audio D500 CD player but don't know which to go with. I got it for $200 so there is no way in hell I'm spending more than that on a power cable. I'd like to stay under $100 if at all possible. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks

[woodman]

The most helpful advice that I (or anyone else) could give you is to run - don't walk away from the entire idea of "after-market power cords". They will not (cannot) improve sonic performance of a component - whether a CD player, a DVD player, a preamp, a power amp, an integrated amp, a receiver, a tape deck, a VCR, a turntable ..... none of them.

You've evidently been conned into believing in a fairy tale - a hoax - a myth. Save your money to spend on something - anything that will actually DO something to enhance the pleasure you derive from your system ... a power cord, no matter how exotic or expensive will not do anything for you (other than lightening your wallet). In other words ...

FUGGITABOUDIT!

[okiemax]

I'm interested in buying a replacement power cable for my Cambride Audio D500 CD player but don't know which to go with. I got it for $200 so there is no way in hell I'm spending more than that on a power cable. I'd like to stay under $100 if at all possible. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks

My Signal Cable power cord from the wall outlet to my Rotel RA-972 integrated amp made much more of an improvement than upgrades in interconnects and speaker cables combined. I doubted this power cord would make a difference, but the improvement in bass compared to the stock cord was surprising. The Signal Cable power cord is available from the maker online for $59 with a 30-day money back guarantee. Other firms selling cords for moderate prices include VH audio (web site), and Zu Cable (ebay auctions). However, I am mentioning these three firms only as examples, and am not recommending that you buy their products.

My limited experience with after market power cords is that they are system specific. Another comparably priced cord ($60) I tried with the Rotel amp didn't seem to be any better than the stock cord. And some models of amps, preamps, and CD players may not benefit from after market cords at all. Therefore, If you spend much, it's a good idea to get a money back guarantee.

A budget power cord which seems to be well thought of over at the Audio Asylum cable forum is the Volex 17604, which is a 14-awg shielded model of 2 meter length. Newark Electronics (check their web site) sells this cord for $5.65, but they have a $5.00 service charge for orders under $25.00. You may be able to find the Volex or a comparable cord elsewhere.

[E-Stat]

I'm interested in buying a replacement power cable for my Cambride Audio D500 CD player but don't know which to go with. I got it for $200 so there is no way in hell I'm spending more than that on a power cable. I'd like to stay under $100 if at all possible. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks


No doubt you will hear from the peanut gallery here that conventional wisdown suggests that once you satisfy the current requirements of a power cord, then that is all that you can achieve.

Well, Mr. Audio Elitist (the moniker that Zapped by Jitter has bestowed upon me) has a different perspective. Not to mention that of EEs who actually design and produce very successful components such as Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT, Luke Manley of VTL, Jud Barber of Joule Electra, just to mention a few, as opposed to the armchair set here who produce.... well nothing. Those who work with the best components suggest that there are a number of household devices as well as other audio components that introduce noise in the AC line. Better AC cords (or conditioners if you will) filter such garbage and improve the audio signal.

If you are willing to throw away $20, (and have a working knowledge of electrical wiring*) then build yourself an aftermarket 14 gauge cable using good connectors such as those from Leviton and Shurter. Determine for yourself the benefit (or lack thereof). Doing said on my Pioneer PD-54 CDP yielded a quieter (blacker) background.

Report your results, regardless of the outcome.

*Lest I speak the obvious

rw

[mtrycraft]

I'm interested in buying a replacement power cable for my Cambride Audio D500 CD player but don't know which to go with. I got it for $200 so there is no way in hell I'm spending more than that on a power cable. I'd like to stay under $100 if at all possible. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks

Just more audio voodoo being marketed with after market cables. If the component you have has inferior power cables why did you buy that junk? How do you know it is well designed in the first place if the designer cannot even design the right power cord?

Sell it, throw in on the junk pile and get a good CD player.

[mtrycraft]

Not to mention that of EEs who actually design and produce very successful components such as Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT, Luke Manley of VTL, Jud Barber of Joule Electra, just to mention a few,


Successful? In what way? Marketing? Selling? Yes, that is one way to be successful.
Perhaps these designers know how to please the audiophile community and know which side their bread is buttered, nothing more. Doesn't attest to the need for different powercords. I am interested if they actually published anything in a Journal about such a need? Or, do they just BS a lot about it? NO, that EE is not a guarantee and immunity from bs, voodoo, etc.




Those who work with the best components suggest that there are a number of household devices as well as other audio components that introduce noise in the AC line. Better AC cords (or conditioners if you will) filter such garbage and improve the audio signal.


Oh, now their cord filtes?
Perhaps, if they were such good designers, they would place the filter where it should be, inside the chassis?
Besides, how do you know they are the best components? What is you basis? Price? Fame? Acceptance by the audiophiles?

If you are willing to throw away $20, then build yourself an aftermarket 14 gauge cable using good connectors such as those from Leviton and Shurter. Determine for yourself the benefit (or lack thereof). Doing said on my Pioneer PD-54 CDP yielded a quieter (blacker) background.

You got all those benefits just from those plugs? Blacker background? You could see that?
Did you do any measurements? You know, one can imagine lots of things.

[skeptic]

If you are willing to throw away $20, then build yourself an aftermarket 14 gauge cable using good connectors such as those from Leviton and Shurter. Determine for yourself the benefit (or lack thereof). Doing said on my Pioneer PD-54 CDP yielded a quieter (blacker) background.

Here's the best advice you will get here. Whatever you decide to do, the last thing you want to try is a DIY power cord. DON'T DO IT! The fact that it will not improve anything including filtering noise notwithstanding, unlike making your own speaker cables or interconnects which at worst will result in expensive damage to your equipment, manufacturing your own power cable risks real safety hazards. Since this board is read by people with all levels of skill from those for whom such a project would be a simple job to those who barely know which end of a screwdriver is the handle, I must assume the worst case. IF YOU MAKE YOUR OWN AND SOMEONE GETS HURT BECAUSE OF AN ELECTRICAL SHOCK OR THERE IS A FIRE BECAUSE A SHORT CIRCUIT CAUSED SPARKS TO IGNITE SOMETHING FLAMABLE, THEY WILL FIND YOU OUT AND YOU WILL BE IN BIG TROUBLE YOU WON'T GET OUT OF. If you MUST have an aftermarket cable, at least buy one that is UL listed. You will be throwing your money away but at least it's only a relatively small amount of money.

[E-Stat]

Successful? In what way?
Producing highly regarded components for a number of years.


Blacker background? You could see that?
I think I might have discovered your deficiency. I listen to my audio stuff. :)

I'll let Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT speak to the issue.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=117899&highlight=power+Ole+Lund+Christensen&r=&session=

rw

[Tony_Montana]

Better AC cords (or conditioners if you will) filter such garbage and improve the audio signal.

Are you confusing power cord with line conditioner/filters issue?

No body here is against using line conditioner/filters if AC power require it-such as when it is extremely dirty and/or it is wildly fluctuating. For such a situation, they are very much desirable.

So how would a power cord alone tackle the above problem by itself without the benefit of conditioner/filters?

[E-Stat]

Are you confusing power cord with line conditioner/filters issue?


No. Shielded cords and/or those with ferrite traps, etc. can help reduce antenna effect.

rw

[pctower]

You just don't get it. Woodman and others tell you in no uncertain terms that power cords can't possibly make a difference. Your experience to the contrary is totally the result of your attitudes, beliefs and expectations.

You are a disgrace if you insist on making purchasing decisions based on your own perceptions of what improves your system, instead of what the keepers of truth dictate to you.

Please, get your act together before you contaminate this site further with your know-nothing questions and posts. You run the risk of being asked, in not very polite language, to head off to Audio Asylum with all the other know-nothing boobs.

[E-Stat]

You just don't get it...
Woe is me. :)



You run the risk of being asked, in not very polite language, to head off to Audio Asylum with all the other know-nothing boobs.
I thought only JR did such things !

rw

[Rockwell]

You just don't get it. Woodman and others tell you in no uncertain terms that power cords can't possibly make a difference. Your experience to the contrary is totally the result of your attitudes, beliefs and expectations.

You are a disgrace if you insist on making purchasing decisions based on your own perceptions of what improves your system, instead of what the keepers of truth dictate to you.

Please, get your act together before you contaminate this site further with your know-nothing questions and posts. You run the risk of being asked, in not very polite language, to head off to Audio Asylum with all the other know-nothing boobs.

You must be bored. :)

Following your perceptions can get quite(some might say needlessly) expensive if you have no actual knowledge of how to interpret those perceptions.

[Tony_Montana]

No. Shielded cords and/or those with ferrite traps, etc. can help reduce antenna effect.

Well if that is the case, wouldn't we be better off buying a quality conditioner/filter such as one from Isobar that sell for around $50-100 rather than buy a PC cord with $1 ferrite trap?

And how much of shielded PC cord will be since AC power is already contaminated with miles and miles of wire that precede it. Typically on average, distortion on home AC power is around 5%. This distortion caused by draw power at the peak of the AC waveform-causing it to become flattened-is by various power company transformers along the way, and various power company transformers and power supplies for computers and other equipment.

So, given that the mains is distorted, and varies in amplitude from minute to minute throughout the day, no cable [alone] can tackle this problem, regardless of price (shielded or not). One will get better result with conditioners/filters or more precisely Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS). But one also have to remember that these type of devices along the AC power can create their own artifacts such as phase shift, or in case of UPS, switching noise distortion.

And to make matters even more complicated, power supply are design with variation of 10% in mind and equipments (that is worth their dime) do have a reserve power rating that can accommodate such variance. So if one thinks that by simlply buying a PC will clean up their power or improve it, is sadly mistaken :)

[E-Stat]

Well if that is the case, wouldn't we be better off buying a quality conditioner/filter such as one from Isobar that sell for around $50-100 rather than buy a PC cord with $1 ferrite trap?
Such effects are cumulative. I do use a conditioner and an aftermarket cable with my turntable.



And to make matters even more complicated, power supply are design with variation of 10% in mind and equipments (that is worth their dime) do have a reserve power rating that can accommodate such variance. So if one thinks that by simlply buying a PC will clean up their power or improve it, is sadly mistaken :)

Don't take it personally, but there is no such thing as "equipments". Like fish, the plural of equipment is equipment. Your comments concerning power cords naturally reflect your own opinion. My experience suggests otherwise. Tell me, what equipment do you listen to? What aftermarket cords have you auditioned?

rw

[Rockwell]

If I had a lot of experience with alchemy, would that make it real phenomenon?

[pctower]

You must be bored. :)

Following your perceptions can get quite(some might say needlessly) expensive if you have no actual knowledge of how to interpret those perceptions.

And you must be arrogant. And no doubt you will be more than happy to impart the knowledge I so sorely lack on how to interpret my perceptions.

[pctower]

Tell me, what equipment do you listen to? What aftermarket cords have you auditioned?

rw

Sorry E-Stat. Discussion of actual listening experiences is not permitted on this board. Apparently you have mistaken this for an audio board.

[skeptic]

No. Shielded cords and/or those with ferrite traps, etc. can help reduce antenna effect.

rw

A ferrite trap is a bad idea. If the inductance of the power transformer won't filter out RF and the inductance of the transformer supplying your house won't filter it, what makes you thing adding a litttle more with a ferrite trap will make much difference. BTW, if you DIY and put one on the ground lead, you are defeating the safety ground and creating a very dangerous situation.

[skeptic]

No body here is against using line conditioner/filters if AC power require it-such as when it is extremely dirty and/or it is wildly fluctuating. For such a situation, they are very much desirable.


Like much else sold to audiophiles, many so called power conditioners are worthless. You really have to know what you are getting and good ones will not be cheap or light. Many are little more than a power outlet strip in fancy packaging with an MOV and maybe a small capacitor. If you are lucky, you'll get a small inductor as well. This won't do much if you have real problems. Good power conditioners will have very large and heavy iron core inductors and large capacitors. The MOV is only there to protect against a momentary spike and may not survive one itself. Good UPSs aren't cheap either. Most power related problems are filtered out by the power supplies of well made equipment. If that won't do it, what makes you think a far cheaper "power conditioner" will?

[Rockwell]

And you must be arrogant. And no doubt you will be more than happy to impart the knowledge I so sorely lack on how to interpret my perceptions.

I was not suggesting that I have all the answers or would interpret your perceptions(though I can give it a shot :) ). I was suggesting that the more technical information that you(or anyone) have about the phenomena you are trying to listen for, the better you can interpret your own perceptions. Taking you, for example, you've been here for a while and know all the objectivist aguments, yet you still believe in cable sonics. Fine, but if you didn't have the benefit of that information, you would be making a less informed choice. Knowing that a power cable, from a technical perspective, is highly unlikely to produce any audible change in a system might lead you to believe that a perception might be unreliable and persue a more friutful upgrade.

[E-Stat]

BTW, if you DIY and put one on the ground lead, you are defeating the safety ground and creating a very dangerous situation.

Following your response to my first post, I qualified it with a comment that perhaps I assumed that most folks would already know. Any electrical DIY project should be done only by someone with working knowledge of wiring and at least a VOM.

I have fond memories of building Dynakits thirty years ago.

rw

[FLZapped]

A ferrite trap is a bad idea. If the inductance of the power transformer won't filter out RF and the inductance of the transformer supplying your house won't filter it, what makes you thing adding a litttle more with a ferrite trap will make much difference. BTW, if you DIY and put one on the ground lead, you are defeating the safety ground and creating a very dangerous situation.


Hang on a minute....

There are long runs of wire between your syupply transformer and your house, so there is plenty of opportunity for rf(or other high frequency noise) to get back into the house wiring. Many houses today no longer use conduit, so you have lots of unshielded wiring running everywhere acting as an antenna.

Regardless of whether the power transformer can filter out the rf, the problem is keeping it outside the equipment case in the first place. Once inside, it can radiate into sensitive circuits.

-Bruce

[Tony_Montana]

Tell me, what equipment do you listen to? What aftermarket cords have you auditioned?

I don't use after market cords because I know better :D

But to be serious, my system is very modest indeed, and going by the "better system, better cables" rule, my system probably will not benefit from upgrading pc-or IC for that matter. But the thing that puzzle me most about upgrading PC or IC is that given the fact that moving speakers couple of inches from their place does have 100 times more effect on the sound of a system than replacing IC or PC will ever have, then why some folks still choose the ladder!!

If you look at most of reviews for cables, they always mention improvement in highs, bass, sound staging, imaging, resolution, etc... as if their system lack those qualities in the first place. What I don't understands is instead of relying on IC to magically transfer their system, why are they not looking into room acoustic, speaker placements, or more radical approach auditioning other speakers, amplifiers or components? And if all the mentioned tweaking have been done and the system is still lacking, then why not look into equalizer/parameter EQ to optimize the sound of their system?

For example, currently in the cable asylum, there is a thread by TomNY (posted January 14) saying that he paid $900 for just one IC (Pursang), and how much difference the IC made in his system. Given the fact that his speakers only cost $2000, wouldn't you agree that he will get much better [solid] results funneling that money toward new speakers, amplifiers or room treatments instead of piece of [passive] wire?

[Tony_Montana]

Most power related problems are filtered out by the power supplies of well made equipment. If that won't do it, what makes you think a far cheaper "power conditioner" will?

Well, some AC problems a power supply can not overcome such as extreme fluctuation of AC. For example, there was a thread in HT forum where this guy was complaining about his light dimming when somebody was using the elevator in his building. For such instances, a power conditioner or UPS might be good idea.

[skeptic]

Well, some AC problems a power supply can not overcome such as extreme fluctuation of AC. For example, there was a thread in HT forum where this guy was complaining about his light dimming when somebody was using the elevator in his building. For such instances, a power conditioner or UPS might be good idea.

In this particular case, a UPS is necessary because it is very unlikely that a power conditioner will work. However, one suitable for a high end audio system is usually very expensive. There have been a lot of complaints about the SMPSs in cheap ones causing more problems than they solve.

[E-Stat]

But the thing that puzzle me most about upgrading PC or IC is that given the fact that moving speakers couple of inches from their place does have 100 times more effect on the sound of a system than replacing IC or PC will ever have, then why some folks still choose the ladder!!
I'm sure that multiplier was scientifically arrived at !! :) You do have a good point about the role of proper speaker placement. One drawback to my big electrostats is that they are an absolute b*tch to position. Over the twenty years I've had the beasts, I have extensively experimented with various combinations of distance from back wall, distance from side walls, and toe in to minimize room nodes and optimize imaging. I use a laser pointer and string to get both speakers symmetrically placed with respect to the center listening spot. Today they live in a large dedicated room where placement of furniture, room treatments, etc. is solely for their benefit. No WAF to deal with.



If you look at most of reviews for cables, they always mention improvement in highs, bass, sound staging, imaging, resolution, etc... as if their system lack those qualities in the first place. What I don't understands is instead of relying on IC to magically transfer their system, why are they not looking into room acoustic, speaker placements, or more radical approach auditioning other speakers, amplifiers or components?
We're on the same page here as to priorities. How many audiofools use any sort of room treatments? One must begin with the best components within a given budget. You have to start with the cake before you can ice it.



And if all the mentioned tweaking have been done and the system is still lacking, then why not look into equalizer/parameter EQ to optimize the sound of their system?
I have a couple of comments on these observations. I do not choose cables for purposes of making my system "warm sounding" or whatever. Truly, they should be totally transparent to the sound AND in today's radio intensive environment, offer appropriate countermeasures to all sorts of RFI that can affect the audible outcome. My JPS Labs cables are exceptionally stiff due to their cable-in-a-copper-tube design. With my CDP, I bypass my preamp and use a pair of passive attenuators instead. This I do because I have yet to hear a perfect line stage. My favorites, the Burmester 808 and the Conrad-Johnson ART II still have a slight character of their own (moreso the case with my Audio Reseach unit) It is common knowledge that capacitance rolls off high frequency content in this application. Using lesser cables would arguably make that factor audible. Using EQ afterwards to boost the response would be a far less elegant approach. I find problem prevention superior to problem resolution. Not only that, equalizers cannot retrieve lost subtle detail that provides imaging and soundstage cues.



For example, currently in the cable asylum, there is a thread... wouldn't you agree that he will get much better [solid] results funneling that money toward new speakers, amplifiers or room treatments instead of piece of [passive] wire?

Yes. I would always work on the fundamentals first.

rw

[mtrycraft]

Sorry E-Stat. Discussion of actual listening experiences is not permitted on this board. Apparently you have mistaken this for an audio board.

It is irrelevant. E-stat makes testable claims here from the looks of it. My listening has nothing to do with his claims. If his claims are questionable, he is the one who needs to explain.

[mtrycraft]

My experience suggests otherwise. Tell me, what equipment do you listen to? What aftermarket cords have you auditioned?rw

If your experience didn't show otherwise you would not post it :) But, how do you know your experience is true, real and reliable? Or, is that even a question that you entertain and just believe that your experience must be reliable and real?

[pctower]

Taking you, for example, you've been here for a while and know all the objectivist aguments, yet you still believe in cable sonics.

I have been very careful to distinguish what I believe from what I personally experience that gives me pleasure when I'm in my sound room.

I have stated in great detail what I believe and don't believe. Your characterization of my belief is not accurate.

[Rockwell]

I have stated in great detail what I believe and don't believe. Your characterization of my belief is not accurate.

Sorry to mischaracterize your belief as that was not my intent. I may have missed the post where you spelled it out, or perhaps my memory is hazy.


I have been very careful to distinguish what I believe from what I personally experience that gives me pleasure when I'm in my sound room.

I don't understand how you can separate those two. If you experience something in your sound room and attribute that something to cables, then that would indicate a belief in cable sonics.

[E-Stat]

But, how do you know your experience is true, real and reliable?
Based upon your criteria, I don't.



Or, is that even a question that you entertain and just believe that your experience must be reliable and real?
My thirty years of enjoyment listening to music is not based upon empirical substantiation. My nature is to use the same analytical skills with music appreciation as I use in my day job as software developer. My listening experiences are founded on long term familiarity not only with my systems, but others that are better. Much better :D

rw

[pctower]

I don't use after market cords because I know better :D

But to be serious, my system is very modest indeed, and going by the "better system, better cables" rule, my system probably will not benefit from upgrading pc-or IC for that matter. But the thing that puzzle me most about upgrading PC or IC is that given the fact that moving speakers couple of inches from their place does have 100 times more effect on the sound of a system than replacing IC or PC will ever have, then why some folks still choose the ladder!!

If you look at most of reviews for cables, they always mention improvement in highs, bass, sound staging, imaging, resolution, etc... as if their system lack those qualities in the first place. What I don't understands is instead of relying on IC to magically transfer their system, why are they not looking into room acoustic, speaker placements, or more radical approach auditioning other speakers, amplifiers or components? And if all the mentioned tweaking have been done and the system is still lacking, then why not look into equalizer/parameter EQ to optimize the sound of their system?

For example, currently in the cable asylum, there is a thread by TomNY (posted January 14) saying that he paid $900 for just one IC (Pursang), and how much difference the IC made in his system. Given the fact that his speakers only cost $2000, wouldn't you agree that he will get much better [solid] results funneling that money toward new speakers, amplifiers or room treatments instead of piece of [passive] wire?

In a way, if power conditioners do help, seems they should help more with less expensive systems where power supplies (theoretically) should not be as good as more expensive stuff.

I am definitely not a Jon fan, but in his defense, if you go to his website, he has a lot of material on room accoustics.

As for equalizers, I've lost the link, but Dr. Toole had an interesting dicussion about ringing caused by equalizers and the importance of using equalization only when it has been specifically designed for the particular speaker it will be used with.

[mtrycraft]

Producing highly regarded components for a number of years.

Highly regarded by whom? The reviewers who would nto know how to do a proper comaprison so they are not biased?



I'll let Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT speak to the issue.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=117899&highlight=power+Ole+Lund+Christensen&r=&session=


His quote:
So my brain was trying hard to ignore the message from my ears, I was hearing a major improvemnt of the sound.

No mention of him using bias controls to verify what he thought he heard, instead he accepts what he imagined. Not a very good engineer, is he? He has no idea of the basics of science in listening.

[skeptic]

Sorry E-Stat. Discussion of actual listening experiences is not permitted on this board. Apparently you have mistaken this for an audio board.

Any statement within the reasonable bounds of civility is permitted on this board. That certainly distinguishes it from Audio Asylum. What is not permitted by many of the people who post here is for unsubstantiated claims for unproven products to go unchallenged. And that also distinguishes this board from Audio Asylum.

[E-Stat]

Highly regarded by whom? The reviewers who would nto know how to do a proper comaprison so they are not biased?
My guess is that you have little or no experience with any GamuT products. If you would like to find out more check their website.

www.gamutaudio.com



No mention of him using bias controls to verify what he thought he heard, instead he accepts what he imagined. Not a very good engineer, is he? He has no idea of the basics of science in listening.
Read further.

"So the power cord is an antenna, radiating noise to all other components and interconnects. So a shielded power cord reduce the radiation, and different connectors and cable designs affect the high frequency signals.
Today all this is standard stuff, which you are required by law to measure to get EMC/CE approval in Europe, and there is lots of laboratories that measure this every day."

Doesn't sound like accepting what he "imagined" to me.



Not a very good engineer, is he? He has no idea of the basics of science in listening
Evidently, we have different criteria as to what consistutes a good engineer. I base my opinion upon results, not theory. Here is his last comment:

"So I have learned to listen and consider carefully the next strange idea."

Breakthroughs in any scientific quarter are made by those who question every assumption.

rw

[mtrycraft]

My guess is that you have little or no experience with any GamuT products. If you would like to find out more check their website.

www.gamutaudio.com


OK, they put out good power, doubling into 4 ohms. So what? I would like to see it on the test bench performance into reactive and capacitive loads too as the Audio Critic tests them.
How much for this amp? There are certainly others that can do it as well. Nothing special so far, EXCEPT, its tremendous idleing power consumption, 80 watts. Must be class A, no big deal there.



Read further.
"So the power cord is an antenna, radiating noise to all other components and interconnects.
No, it is not an antenna when you have two leads with signal running in opposite direction.




So a shielded power cord reduce the radiation, and different connectors and cable designs affect the high frequency signals.

Where are his data?

Today all this is standard stuff, which you are required by law to measure to get EMC/CE approval in Europe, and there is lots of laboratories that measure this every day."

Then he should have shown his measured data.

Doesn't sound like accepting what he "imagined" to me.

Of course he did. He didn't demonstrate anything audible, not by his proclamation. Worthless anecdote.


Evidently, we have different criteria as to what consistutes a good engineer. I base my opinion upon results, not theory.

He has demonstrated nothing yet. You just fall all over their claim based in unreliable anecdotes. That is your choice.



Here is his last comment:
"So I have learned to listen and consider carefully the next strange idea."
Breakthroughs in any scientific quarter are made by those who question every assumption.
rw

Yes, but he has made no breakthrough, not by his unreliable anecdote. He would have been better not claiming anything.

[skeptic]

"Nothing special so far, EXCEPT, its tremendous idleing power consumption, 80 watts. Must be class A, no big deal there."

Actually, this is almost certainly class AB since a class A amplifier would draw as much power at idle as it would a full output and that would be greater than the rated audio power output.

This amplifier is not capable of handling loads under 1.5 ohms and apparantly shuts itself down when it is confronted by one althought it isn't clear from the advertising how it senses it. I think it is deplorable that expensive modern amplifiers cannot handle ALL passive loads. The Crown DC300 was able to and that was 35 years ago. This suggests that there is far more quality in the advertising than in the engineering.

As for the power cord being an antenna, I'm not sure if they are talking about it being a receiving or a transmitting antenna. If you worry about it being a receiving antenna, any decent power supply should be able to very efficiently filter out rf noise. If it can't filter out rf, what expectation would you have for it filtering out 60 hz ripple? Again this speaks to the quality of the power supply and the amplifier as a whole. As for it being a transmitter, yes all power cords radiate a 60 hz field. But this field is very quickly attenuated with distance and other equipment should both easily filter it in their own power supplies and shield against it by design of their enclosures and there should be effective shielding by by their interconnecting signal level cables including interconnects. They will not radiate at rf frequencies unless they have the dreaded SMPSs (switching mode power supplies) which are a poor cheap substitute for a linear supply I expect on any decent equipment (except my computer and printer of course.)

The use of shielded power cables should be seriously questioned when buying a power cable or equipment supplying one. The most important criteria is that the unit as a whole including the cord be UL listed. By shielding a power cable, heat generated by current flow in it is trapped and restricted from dissipating unless suitable measures are taken. In closed electrical conduits, a certain amount of air space is mandatory. Without a UL listing, you cannot be sure that the cable will not overheat and the insulation melt under prolonged conditions of heavy current draw creating a risk of shock and fire. From the power requirement of 240 volts, these units are apparantly meanufactured in Europe for use in Europe, my guess is the UK and would not be subject to American safety standards unless there are export versions. Personally, I avoid purchasing such equipment since my experience living in Europe some 30 years ago makes all European manufactured electrical equipment intended for domestic use suspect in terms of both safety and reliability. My examination of some European imports during the intervening 30 years of both a consumer nature and of industrial equipment has not reduced my concerns, the latest being a Cuisinart food processor failure a couple of years ago. IMO, there is a great deal of BAD engineering in products coming from Europe.

[E-Stat]

This amplifier is not capable of handling loads under 1.5 ohms and apparantly shuts itself down ... I think it is deplorable that expensive modern amplifiers cannot handle ALL passive loads. The Crown DC300 was able to and that was 35 years ago. This suggests that there is far more quality in the advertising than in the engineering.
The Crown and GamuT amplifiers are designed for different duty: the GamuT is primarily designed for reproducing music. At which it handily beats the old Crown using musical content. I had one decades ago while in high school (coincidentally at the time I owned the Citation 11 preamp). Rugged, heck yes! I inadvertently welded a screwdriver to the output posts by slipping and shorting the outs. It shut down, I removed the screwdriver and brought it back up just fine. I was using it to drive a double pair of Advents at the school pageant. As for the load "limitation" of the smaller GamuT amps, I know of precious few high fidelity speakers (including my otherwise difficult to drive electrostats) that present an under 2 ohm load. I'm not concerned how many PA bins my home amplifier can or cannot drive.



The use of shielded power cables should be seriously questioned when buying a power cable or equipment supplying one. The most important criteria is that the unit as a whole including the cord be UL listed. By shielding a power cable, heat generated by current flow in it is trapped and restricted from dissipating unless suitable measures are taken.
Indeed such are important design considerations. And likely to factor in to their relatively high cost. My own JPS Labs cords are rated up to 300 volts for approval by UL and CSA.

rw

[skeptic]

The musical attributes aside, you'd think that after all this time, designing amplifiers, especially expensive ones to handle any conceivable passive load would be de rigeur for any electrical engineer. Sadly this is not the case. Whatever qualities you get in an amplifier that you like, reliability should be among the top considerations. There is nothing more frustrating than an amplifier that breaks down, especially when you've paid a lot of money for it.

It seems to me that when people manufacturing expensive power cords go to the extremes of machining the plugs out of a single piece of metal, using shields, ferrite impregnated outer jackets, and other bizzare techniques, they have invented a solution looking for a problem which generally doesn't exist and have not only found a gullable ready market for it but have created a host of new and much worse problems in the process.

[E-Stat]

The musical attributes aside...
That would seem to wrap up your perspective.



... you'd think that after all this time, designing amplifiers, especially expensive ones to handle any conceivable passive load would be de rigeur for any electrical engineer.
Except for when such a design can provide audible benefits. The GamuT designs use a single pair of power MOSFETs per channel. Do you think that Christensen doesn't know about paralleling devices? Massive paralleling of output devices involves a different set of compromises.

rw

[skeptic]

Except for when such a design can provide audible benefits. rw

Can you find a single manufacturer of an expensive amplifier who doesn't claim that his design quirk whatever its drawbacks doesn't produce better sound from the connected loudspeakers than anybody elses? Everybody is better than everybody else. Well guess what, you be very hard put to identify ANY amplifier by sound alone. As for reliability, IMO, that ranks number one. And if the damned piece of junk can't handle low impdedence loads, it makes you wonder just what else it can't handle. Frankly, I don't think they publish the price simply because they are afraid of scaring the suckers, I mean customers, away.

[Tony_Montana]

As for equalizers, I've lost the link, but Dr. Toole had an interesting dicussion about ringing caused by equalizers and the importance of using equalization only when it has been specifically designed for the particular speaker it will be used with.

Howdy

I have been using EQ in my system for over 20 years, and I have never notice any ringing distortion. Also if you look at quality EQ's specification such as S/N ratio, THD/IM distortion or frequency response, it is much lower than component's specifications they are hooked up to.

As far as using EQ in a particular speaker it was designed for, that don't make any sense. EQ are used to compensate shortcomings acoustically (and to lesser extend speaker shortcomings) which can not be solved using classical methods such as speaker placement or room treatments. And since every listening environment is different and different speakers will react differently with its environment , using equalization only when it has been specifically for the particular speakers don't seem to have any meanings :)

[bturk667]

12345

[FLZapped]

The Crown and GamuT amplifiers are designed for different duty: the GamuT is primarily designed for reproducing music. At which it handily beats the old Crown using musical content.

rw

Really, and just how would these objects made of metal, plastic and silicon know the difference between a sinewave, pink noise, or music so that they could do some wonderous magic you're apparently claiming? May I also suppose from your comment that Crown is designing their products just to heat someone's feet. :rolleyes:

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Really, and just how would these objects made of metal, plastic and silicon know the difference between a sinewave, pink noise, or music so that they could do some wonderous magic you're apparently claiming?

Are you kidding, Zap? I would surely be insulting many a poster here to point out that the design criteria and engineering compromises of PA equipment is much different from that of musical equipment.

rw

[FLZapped]

Are you kidding, Zap? I would surely be insulting many a poster here to point out that the design criteria and engineering compromises of PA equipment is much different from that of musical equipment.

rw

Really E-Stat, you are surely insulting well known manufacturers such as Crown, Crest, QSC, Mackie, JBL, etc. by insinuating that music reproduction isn't a concern to them.

Besides, you missed, or sidestepped the point. You made a statement that would appear as though those inanimate objects, known as amplifiers, somehow knew the difference between pink noise and a musical signal being fed through them. Or for that matter, a live performance vs a recorded one.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Really E-Stat, you are surely insulting well known manufacturers such as Crown, Crest, QSC, Mackie, JBL, etc. by insinuating that music reproduction isn't a concern to them.
You're pulling my leg again, right? :) I'll let Skeptic explain it to you:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=9390&postcount=40



...amplifiers, somehow knew the difference between pink noise and a musical signal being fed through them
I made no such assertion. Does a Ferrari know the nature of roads better than a Hyundai? What a silly comment. Audio components designed to produce good static measurements often fail miserably when reproducing dynamic musical material. The Crown family, especially the older IC-150 preamp and DC-300 amps, are poster children of this effect. With their simple LM301 and ua739 op amps driven to "maximum amounts of overall feedback", they were simply dreadful sounding. Yet their measurements based on static test tones with claimed THD figures of .001% would suggest otherwise.

rw

[mtrycraft]

With their simple LM301 and ua739 op amps driven to "maximum amounts of overall feedback", they were simply dreadful sounding. Yet their measurements based on static test tones with claimed THD figures of .001% would suggest otherwise.

rw

Is this sheer speculation or you have some real evidence behind it?

[FLZapped]

You're pulling my leg again, right? :) I'll let Skeptic explain it to you:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=9390&postcount=40

You're twisting again. No, a skating rink isn't going to be concerned with accuracy because it is a SKATING RINK! So, would your fancy-assed amp perform any better there???? You seem to be implying again that it could fix all their problems. Once again, you are mixing things together that are unrelated, this discussion is about amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS. Not the acoustics of a skating rink. Tell ya what, hire an acoustic consultant to help with the design a skating rink and you'll probably be able to have concerts there as well.

Back on topic. You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.

What's even funnier, is that you keep harping about musical reality, yet it is these very systems containing Crown, Crest, QSC, equipment are what people listen to when they go to a concert and are comparing their home systems against.



Audio components designed to produce good static measurements often fail miserably when reproducing dynamic musical material.



Fine, prove it. You've made the claim, back it up.



The Crown family, especially the older IC-150 preamp and DC-300 amps, are poster children of this effect. With their simple LM301 and ua739 op amps driven to "maximum amounts of overall feedback", they were simply dreadful sounding. Yet their measurements based on static test tones with claimed THD figures of .001% would suggest otherwise.

rw

Fine, prove it. You've made the claim, back it up.

-Bruce
(Where's the Beef)

[E-Stat]

Is this sheer speculation or you have some real evidence behind it?

Gee, I guess you've never heard of FETs, have you? There is a mountain of evidence behind them for those who persue such things.

rw

[E-Stat]

You're twisting again. No, a skating rink isn't going to be concerned with accuracy because it is a SKATING RINK! So, would your fancy-assed amp perform any better there???? You seem to be implying again that it could fix all their problems. Once again, you are mixing things together that are unrelated, this discussion is about amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS. Not the acoustics of a skating rink. Tell ya what, hire an acoustic consultant to help with the design a skating rink and you'll probably be able to have concerts there as well.
The only twisting going on is that I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This is beginning to get ridiculous !! :)

If you read the original thread to which Skeptic replied, I observed that the multi-million dollar PA system found at the Philips Arena in Atlanta (the contractor who designed and installed the system is one of my customers) was sonically inferior to those designed for high fidelity reproduction. The skating part came because the US Figure Skating National competition happened to be in Atlanta the week before. He readily agreed and further stated, "What kind of audiophile would confuse that kind of installation (sporting arenas) with a high fidelity sound reproduction system in a home?

Amen, brother.

No where did I ever suggest that for A PA APPLICATION WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE A HIGH FIDELITY COMPONENT. The mediocre amplifiers are not nearly as grating on the ears as are the giant horns. Who the heck cares what the sound is like for any sporting event anyway? That's what PA is all about. LOL!!!



Back on topic. You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.
What I did say is that sonic quality takes a decided back seat to a long list of other more important considerations for PA use, namely power, cooling, ruggedness, low impedance driving capability, etc. By all means, debate the specifics with Skeptic.



What's even funnier, is that you keep harping about musical reality, yet it is these very systems containing Crown, Crest, QSC, equipment are what people listen to when they go to a concert and are comparing their home systems against.
You mistake me for someone else. I make no musical comparisons against the base inferiority of a PA system. For the past thirty years of hearing those kind of "live" concerts, I've been too busy stuffing my ears with whatever I could find to help eliminate the shrill torture. The only reference to which I would use is to a live, unamplified event devoid of such crude equipment. A symphony orchestra. A barbershop quartet. My wife playing the baby grand in the living room. On a performance basis, comparing high resolution components to their PA system counterparts is like comparing New Balance running shoes to steel-toed work boots. Or a Ferrari Enzo to a Checker Marathon cab. Or a General Dynamics F-16 to a Boeing 737. Do you get the drift?

As for the old Crowns, can you say gross amounts of TIM distortion?

rw

[skeptic]

Not all professional sound installations are public address systems. There are many sound reinforcement systems including those sadly for concert halls where symphony orchestras perform. Whether part of the installation in a building or dragged into an arena by a rock group, this equipment is designed to produce music. There are many consideratons for these systems beyond what audiophiles need or expect. Extreme ruggedness and reliability in the face of endless physical and electrical abuse. The ability to produce large volumes of sound. Uniform coverage of an audience. Maximum gain before feedback. All this in addition to music that will please the audience. And yes cost is a factor. Nobody will buy "audiophile quality" amplifiers for professional installations. If Bryston wants to convince contractors to choose them instead of Crown, they'd better come up with a competitive price. And they probably sell them minor variants of the same amplifiers they market to audiphiles at many times the price.

For all you "audiophiles" who treasure your old vinyl recordings of deafening rock concerts and remember hearing them live (when you still had hearing before blasting noise, drugs, and age took their toll), you were probably listening to Crown DC300 amplifiers, JBL loudspeakers, and 30 band graphic equalizers plus many active stages of solid state preamplification in mixing consoles. This is exactly what you reject in your playback equipment, the same equipment that produced you music in the first place. Now how do you explain that? And don't tell me apples and oranges. BTW, they didn't use expensive cables either. They didn't even exist but if they did, I assure you they wouldn't have been used. They spent their money on what they needed to get the job done creating the sound they wanted and nothing more. No illusions, no smoke or mirrors, no giving in to hype.

[E-Stat]

...you were probably listening to Crown DC300 amplifiers, JBL loudspeakers, and 30 band graphic equalizers plus many active stages of solid state preamplification in mixing consoles.
Indeed. Not only that, I owned a Crown amplifier when I was 17. "Live concert" in that respect is an oxymoron. You couldn't follow an instrumental line amongst the sonic muck if your life depended upon it. Clearly, my favorite recordings are those that do not use the multi-miking approach. The Telarc classical recordings are one example. Windham Hill is another label that uses a mimimalist approach. Their artists such as Liz Story, George Winston, Michael Hedges, etc. are usually recorded direct to 2 track with no compression or limiting using nice Schoeps or Neumann mikes.



This is exactly what you reject in your playback equipment, the same equipment that produced you music in the first place. Now how do you explain that?
Who said that the sound of those "live" events was ever above mediocre? As for "my" music, I had a pretty large classical collection when in my teens. I had a couple of mentors who introduced me to both better music and better equipment. Two were audio reviewers who had access to a wide range of equipment. I still remember how natural sounding orchestral music sounded on Tympanis driven by Audio Research electronics back in '76. Despite the artifice of most popular music today, the sound of Dido for example is far more "live" to me in my basement than in a "professional" venue. I hear subtleties of her voice lost at concerts and am able to clearly follow any instrumental line. People go to such concerts to see their favorite artists more than anything else.



BTW, they didn't use expensive cables either...They spent their money on what they needed to get the job done creating the sound they wanted and nothing more.
Absolutely. Why spend a penny on refining that which is pretty bad to start?

rw

[skeptic]

E-stat, you are the rare exception and you know it. I was addressing my comments to the peanut gallery.

[mtrycraft]

Gee, I guess you've never heard of FETs, have you? There is a mountain of evidence behind them for those who persue such things.

rw

How about you just post a few, not the whole mountain, credible DBT citations?

[E-Stat]

How about you just post a few, not the whole mountain, credible DBT citations?

Let's start with the first question. Have you ever heard of field effect transistors?

rw

[bturk667]

How many suggestion did you recieve?

[Beckman]

Short Answer:
Don't waste your money. The power cord you have works fine.

Long Answer:
Here is what happens when power leaves the outlet. It goes through the power cord. It goes through a full wave rectifier. Capacitors are used to smooth out the voltage into a relatively constant voltage. Zeners, and/or voltage regulators are used to supply a constant voltage that supplies all of the parts of the component biasing transistors, powering motors, IC's, etc.

The quality of the sound has nothing to do with the power cable and everthing to do with the power supply inside the component.

As far as power cords go all you really need is a cord the can handel the current drawn by the cd player (less than 1 amp).

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!
You should invest in a surge protector. As long as it can handle the power drawn by all the components plugged into it a cheap one will work fine. In fact I payed $10 for mine and it provides $10,000 worth of coverage against damage done due to a surge.

[mtrycraft]

In fact I payed $10 for mine and it provides $10,000 worth of coverage against damage done due to a surge.

You may want to check the fine print:) It applies after your own insurance leaves off:) I suppose if you don't have househod insurance, it applies.
Not sure if that surg protector coverage is based on full replacement value or depreciated ones. It should pay the deductable thoug.

[skeptic]

One minor point of clarification. If the surge protector is an MOV device, it is in parallel to the load and normally draws no current itself. When the volage exceeds 176 volts, the peak of a 120 volt sine wave, the MOV effectively goes into a breakdown mode becoming a shunt clipper. Damage to the MOV usually depends on the height of the applied waveform and its duration as well as the rating of the MOV. I once had a scam artist type salesman in my office who sold one of my internal clients (unknown to me) just such a device (it had a few extra bells and whistles) at an outrageous price ($9000) for industiral use. They advertised it as having "infinite" capacity. There are other types of surge protectors which can be placed in series with the load. One such type is the ferroresonant transformer such as those pioneered and manufactured by Sola. But these are of course much more expensive. Even at an industrial level, it's buyer beware.

[FLZapped]

The only twisting going on is that I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This is beginning to get ridiculous !! :)

rw

I couldn't agree more. You make all sorts of claims and then instead of providing and evidence you know what you're talking about, you spew out personal anecdotes and try to pawn things off on someone else.

So are you going to back up your claims yet, or just spew more gibberish?

-Bruce

[sofsoldier]

What is wrong with your current cable? If you need a new power cable because of some damage, just get a direct replacement.

Others will say after-market power cables are hype. I never tried one so I can speak one way or another, but I have a hard time imagining that an expensive power cable can make a difference since the AC power is converted to DC in the unit itself. Fluctuations in power is a known issue and I would hope the designers of the AC to DC converters would take this into concideration. AS a matter of fact, I believe that is the reason why components use DC!

[E-Stat]

So are you going to back up your claims yet, or just spew more gibberish?

Regarding the different design priorities of PA and sound reinforcement equipment vs. high fidelily music equipment, why don't you direct that question to Skeptic, whose same assertions to mine were quoted? Here, let me remind you:

The performance of a sound system at a skating rink or arena is not designed for accurate music reproduction. It is designed for high intelligibility, maximum gain before feedback, and uniform coverage of the audience.

BTW, read Crown's press release for their newest flagship amplifier.

http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr97.htm

Here are some telling excerpts:

"Crown positions I-Tech as their new flagship amplifier series for the touring and corporate PA markets."

"With I-Tech, choosing a touring amplifier no longer has to involve making a series of compromises.”

Maybe you just don't get it.

rw

[FLZapped]

Regarding the different design priorities of PA and sound reinforcement equipment vs. high fidelily music equipment, why don't you direct that question to Skeptic, whose same assertions to mine were quoted? Here, let me remind you:

The performance of a sound system at a skating rink or arena is not designed for accurate music reproduction. It is designed for high intelligibility, maximum gain before feedback, and uniform coverage of the audience.

You still haven't answered the first question, or provided evidence that amp manufacturers, as Crown, et al., are not concerned about musical reproduction. I'm still waiting your proof.




BTW, read Crown's press release for their newest flagship amplifier.

http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr97.htm

Here are some telling excerpts:

"Crown positions I-Tech as their new flagship amplifier series for the touring and corporate PA markets."

"With I-Tech, choosing a touring amplifier no longer has to involve making a series of compromises.”

Maybe you just don't get it.

rw

Not this last statement.

Please show me evidence where a company such as Crown, who is targeting a specific market, makes their product any less likely to do and excellent job of reproducing music. This has been your main claim, (and reiterate here, apparently) one for which you have yet to provide any evidence for and lots of rhetoric.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

You still haven't answered the first question, or provided evidence that amp manufacturers, as Crown, et al., are not concerned about musical reproduction. I'm still waiting your proof.
If by the "first question", you mean this:

You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.

I never said anything of the sort. What I did say was the GamuT was designed primarily for music. Capability for driving multiple PA bins at 1 ohm is irrelevant. Concern for cooling the unit in a small rack environment is irrelevant. Having networking capabilities for central management is irrelevant. Surviving the rigors of touring is irrelevant. The difference is one of priorities and attendant compromises. You post as though you are an engineer. Don't you know this already? The sonic result to me is clear. First through owning one of their products and hearing others. Secondly, through enduring many a PA system.

If you like the sound of their amps, then by all means enjoy them!

rw

[FLZapped]

If by the "first question", you mean this:

You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.

I never said anything of the sort.

No?

The Crown and GamuT amplifiers are designed for different duty: the GamuT is primarily designed for reproducing music. At which it handily beats the old Crown using musical content.

and:

...they were simply dreadful sounding.

And in this post:


The sonic result to me is clear.

rw

And if that isn't enough, you contradict yourself and then reinforce your claim:

I make no musical comparisons against the base inferiority of a PA system

It's obvious you have absolutely nothing that will back up your claims, beyond your personal anecdotes.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

It's obvious you have absolutely nothing that will back up your claims, beyond your personal anecdotes.
Perhaps I inadvertently hit a sore spot. Is it possible that you use some PA gear in your music system?

rw