How exactly does treble control work? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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bjornb17
12-16-2005, 12:09 PM
Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?

GMichael
12-16-2005, 12:22 PM
Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?

It will also send out X-mas cards to every member of your family. This is it's number one use.

Oops, sorry. Couldn't hold that back.

I'm not sure how it increases your treble. I know it has a variable resistor in it.

kexodusc
12-16-2005, 12:31 PM
Hmmm, good question...never really thought about it before.
I'm guessing it's similar to some guitars I've built. Your tone controls aren't actually boosting frequency bands (well, unless they're digital, but lets stick to analog), but rather applying different levels of cut. Similar to a speakers crossover, a properly calculated pot will use capacitors and inductors, and variable resistors to apply different levels of cut.

With capacitors for example, their resistance changes with frequency. At low frequency, the impedance is very high, at high frequency the impedance is low...so your applying different levels of resistance to the signal as you increase the control.

Short, non EE explanation. Hope I'm at least somewhat right.

Resident Loser
12-16-2005, 01:17 PM
Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?

...most speaker treble controls are simply a "cut" filter...even though your control may say +6dB at max, it doesn't amplifiy anything. At max, the signal goes through unfettered, from that point through the mfr's. arbitrary 0dB point down to it's -6db lower level, it simply adds resistance...generally speaking of course...

Of course, this refers to non-active loudspeakers powered by an outboard amp...

jimHJJ(...Merry Christmas to all...)

markw
12-16-2005, 01:54 PM
No, it does not increase treble. A speaker, being a passive device has no way to "increase" treble from the amp. It can only cut it.

Now, the designer of the speaker may have designed it so that when it's in the middle of it's range it would provide what he feels is the most balanced sound. That way, you might be able to turn it all the way up or down to increase or decrease the apparant treble. It's still not "adding" to it.

As to the electronics, I'll suggest you check out some books. It has to deal with resistors, capacitors and the like. First or second analog year AC circuits should cover it.

And, as far as amps go, yes they CAN boost the treble and bass. Remember, they are not passive devices and have gain, which can be applied selectively.

Woochifer
12-16-2005, 05:16 PM
At the preamp level, I'm pretty sure that the treble controls will boost the signal. Part of the rationale behind the high end market's evolution into the current "thou shalt use no tone controls" edict that most self-described audiophiles follow is the belief that tone controls that add treble or bass also add distortion and raise the noise floor.

Same thing goes for loudness switches, which can add noise to the signal (then again, their intended use is only during low level listening to compensate for our reduced hearing sensitivity with high and low frequencies at lower levels). This is the reason why on its two-channel amps Yamaha goes with a variable loudness contour rather than a signal boosting loudness switch -- because a variable loudness contour works by reducing the overall signal and while leaving the low and highs at an elevated level (raising the volume will raise the overall level and have the net effect of boosting the highs and lows without added noise).

As others have pointed out, the level control pots that are found on some speakers have no way of applying any gain to the signal, so they would work by attenuating the incoming signal.

E-Stat
12-16-2005, 06:25 PM
the belief that tone controls that add treble or bass also add distortion and raise the noise floor.
Do you know of a perfect active gain stage?

rw

Woochifer
12-16-2005, 06:29 PM
Do you know of a perfect active gain stage?

No. Do you know of a perfect speaker or room acoustical condition?

E-Stat
12-16-2005, 08:19 PM
No. Do you know of a perfect speaker or room acoustical condition?
I'm glad we agree upon what transcends "belief". I know of no perfect audio device.

rw

shokhead
12-17-2005, 06:12 AM
So where do you guys have your controls at? Mine are +2 on bass and -2 on treble.

Florian
12-17-2005, 06:35 AM
The less parts in the system the better. The less sonic character the better. A "perfect" speaker doesnt exist, but you can get damn close but not if you run lets say a speaker with 3 different materials, resonances, uneven rooms, receivers with ten thousand parts and a poluted powergrif then you might as well use the tone controls ;)

In my opinion, the less crap the better.

-Flo

E-Stat
12-17-2005, 07:44 AM
So where do you guys have your controls at? Mine are +2 on bass and -2 on treble.
With my double pair of Advents in my vintage system, I keep the HF contour for the upper pair on "normal" and the lower pair on "decrease" (they have one more position - extended).

With the Sound Labs transformers, bass flat, mid flat, and highs at about 2:00 (rotary pot). Sometimes to extend dynamic range, I'll drop the LF control a notch by 2 db.

rw

bjornb17
12-17-2005, 08:46 AM
No, it does not increase treble. A speaker, being a passive device has no way to "increase" treble from the amp. It can only cut it.

Now, the designer of the speaker may have designed it so that when it's in the middle of it's range it would provide what he feels is the most balanced sound. That way, you might be able to turn it all the way up or down to increase or decrease the apparant treble. It's still not "adding" to it.

As to the electronics, I'll suggest you check out some books. It has to deal with resistors, capacitors and the like. First or second analog year AC circuits should cover it.

And, as far as amps go, yes they CAN boost the treble and bass. Remember, they are not passive devices and have gain, which can be applied selectively.

Thanks for the input. I was actually referring to the treble control on the receiver. I guess i didnt mention that :)

Florian
12-17-2005, 09:01 AM
<dl> <dt><center>Tone Controls</center> </dt><dt><center> </center> </dt><dt>Generally the use of tone controls, we hope, will be unnecessary. Most quality speakers have been designed to deliver a flat frequency response and a well balanced sound reproduction. However, in some listening environments this balance may be distorted by room effects. Tone controls in this case can then be used to compensate for these problems. </dt><dt> </dt><dt>If you do need to turn the tone controls up, whether it is for room acoustics or personal taste, then it is worth noting the effect as far as output power and 'clipping' is concerned. </dt><dt> </dt><dt>Bass and treble controls adjust the level of a selected range of frequencies in addition to the volume control which adjusts the level at all frequencies. If an amplifier is already being driven at full power and the bass and treble is then turned up, the result is 'clipping' and likely failure of the speakers.
</dt><dt> </dt> </dl>

GMichael
12-17-2005, 09:14 AM
So, it won't send out my cards? Ut oh. Uhm, I may be a little busy this weekend.

StanleyMuso
12-18-2005, 03:39 AM
Of course, in a perfect world, with perfect recordings, tone controls should not be needed. My current system has no tone controls, but sometimes I miss them. My recorded materials are not all perfect. Some are very old, but not replaceable. Some of them are rare and have never been re-issued. There is a lot of background hiss or other distortion. The use of tone controls can make such sources more pleasant to listen to. I'm sorry, but I am not going to subscribe to some self imposed purist nonsense and throw out old but treasured recordings just because they do not conform to some idiot's idea of perfections. They may not be technically perfect, but some of them are artistically perfect. Sooner or later, I WILL re-introduce some form of tone cotrol just for the times when I want to listen to my treasured old recordings in order to cut out some extrenuous noise.

Florian
12-18-2005, 04:18 AM
It mostly comes down to personal choice. You either choose to the most accurate reproduction of whats on the source or you favor a altered sound to your liking. The editor of that article is correct that you can use it for room correction purposes. But by cutting down the treble or bass it also removes micro information in that area. Now, we know that most systems out there that are affordable will not reveal that information in the first place but i personally prefer the hiss and crackles and get a acurate reproduction then a sound i personally prefer.

Its all about choice

StanleyMuso
12-18-2005, 05:30 AM
It mostly comes down to personal choice. You either choose to the most accurate reproduction of whats on the source or you favor a altered sound to your liking. The editor of that article is correct that you can use it for room correction purposes. But by cutting down the treble or bass it also removes micro information in that area. Now, we know that most systems out there that are affordable will not reveal that information in the first place but i personally prefer the hiss and crackles and get a acurate reproduction then a sound i personally prefer.

Its all about choice
rigid a position. I have some recordings which are so old and so worn out that the only way you can retrieve the musical information is by cutting out the background noise. One of these days when I have more time I will record them digitally and clean them up a bit, but until then, the only way you can even hear the music is by using tone controls. Well, not for the moment. My current set up won't let me do it.

Florian
12-18-2005, 05:32 AM
I can recommend a machiene that will flatten the records again if your interested.

Bernd
12-18-2005, 05:50 AM
rigid a position. I have some recordings which are so old and so worn out that the only way you can retrieve the musical information is by cutting out the background noise. One of these days when I have more time I will record them digitally and clean them up a bit, but until then, the only way you can even hear the music is by using tone controls. Well, not for the moment. My current set up won't let me do it.
Hi,

I am intrigued. How can tone controls help to retrieve information from a worn out record?
If the information can not be retrieved in the first place you can not add to it later. On top of that any additional artifact in the reproduction chain will have an effect on the original intended sound. Like Flo said It's all down to choice. I like to hear the music how it was meant to be.

Peace

Bernd

markw
12-18-2005, 01:16 PM
...and that means live. Short of that, we're at the mercy of the positioning of the microphones, the acoustics of the venue/studio, the skill of the recording engineer, the speakers and acoustics of the mixdown studio, the engineer's position in that environment, not to mention said engineer's mood that day.

To assume that playing back a recording simply with no tone controls is emulating the actual event is an exercise in optimism worthy of the emperor's new clothes, not to mention a touch of that fabled audiophile snobbery.

You really don't think those jokers apply judicious amounts of eq and reverb as per their personal tastes in the process, not to mention playing around with the relative positioning of the players?

The original "music as it is meant to be " was lost so far down the chain that the "real" reference point ceased to exist as soon s the artist stopped creating the event. The music you hear is as real to live music as a TV dinner is to a gourmet meal in a fine restaurant

If "purity" of an art form is so exacting that there is no second guessing that artists involved, why does Ruth's Chris Steak House allow salt and pepper shakers on their tables? After all, their chefs know best, don't they?. Their garlic/butter sauce should be sufficient for any discerning palate in the know, right?

I rarely use them but, on occasion, I do feel the need to tweak the sound or minimize some noise components. ...and I always will. Tell me that my rockabilly and western swing recordings from the 40 's and 50's emulate the actual sound of the event and can't be improved with a little tweaking. I could use a good laugh. Those enginers back then didn't know about high end sound. They did know AM radio.

StanleyMuso
12-18-2005, 05:43 PM
Hi,

I am intrigued. How can tone controls help to retrieve information from a worn out record?
If the information can not be retrieved in the first place you can not add to it later. On top of that any additional artifact in the reproduction chain will have an effect on the original intended sound. Like Flo said It's all down to choice. I like to hear the music how it was meant to be.

Peace

Bernd
Tone controls cannot retreive information, but in the case of a very old record, a lot of the background noise, hiss and crackle are in the high treble area. Sometimes by turning down the treble it is possible to mute the noise a little bit and get to hear the music over the noise which was totally obscuring it. Admittedly, a purist will say that this takes information away. But, even if by turning the treble down I dull down the music a bit, it is still preferable to not being able to listen to it at all. As I said before, one day I intend to explore the possibility of digital restoration of some of my older collection.

StanleyMuso
12-18-2005, 06:42 PM
Do you remember the cassette before the proliferation of the Dolby system? It hissed like a snake. Judicious use of the treble control helped to tame this monster somewhat. I recently bought a film made in the 70s, but the transfer to DVD was so bad that the sound track hissed as badly as those old non Dolby cassettes. On this occassion I sorely regretted not having a tone control.

Bernd
12-19-2005, 12:48 AM
...and that means live. Short of that, we're at the mercy of the positioning of the microphones, the acoustics of the venue/studio, the skill of the recording engineer, the speakers and acoustics of the mixdown studio, the engineer's position in that environment, not to mention said engineer's mood that day.

To assume that playing back a recording simply with no tone controls is emulating the actual event is an exercise in optimism worthy of the emperor's new clothes, not to mention a touch of that fabled audiophile snobbery.

You really don't think those jokers apply judicious amounts of eq and reverb as per their personal tastes in the process, not to mention playing around with the relative positioning of the players?

The original "music as it is meant to be " was lost so far down the chain that the "real" reference point ceased to exist as soon s the artist stopped creating the event. The music you hear is as real to live music as a TV dinner is to a gourmet meal in a fine restaurant

If "purity" of an art form is so exacting that there is no second guessing that artists involved, why does Ruth's Chris Steak House allow salt and pepper shakers on their tables? After all, their chefs know best, don't they?. Their garlic/butter sauce should be sufficient for any discerning palate in the know, right?

I rarely use them but, on occasion, I do feel the need to tweak the sound or minimize some noise components. ...and I always will. Tell me that my rockabilly and western swing recordings from the 40 's and 50's emulate the actual sound of the event and can't be improved with a little tweaking. I could use a good laugh. Those enginers back then didn't know about high end sound. They did know AM radio.

Hi,

Let me deal with the salt and pepper issue first. I am a trained chef and have worked in Michelin star kitchens and no there are no salt and pepper shakers on the tables.
If you need to enhance superbly created food with salt,pepper or tomato kechup you are in the wrong restaurant.

Now to my point of listening how it was meant to be. I play the guitar and I will never recreate that pure sound on my rig.However I am aware that the recorded sound is manipulated as I have been lucky enough to witness several Studio recordings. What I mean is to listen to the finished (mixed and manipulated master tape). Some people obviousley feel the need to cary on the manipulation at home i.e. tone controls. It's your dime. Go knock yourself out.
I have several records from the 50s and 60s and after careful cleaning I wouldn't dream of messing with the result. A well set up TT will cut through all that and let the music shine. Only exception be if the record is dead. No tone controls will revive that.

Have a merry christmas and a happy time twiddling those knobs

Bernd

Bernd
12-19-2005, 12:48 AM
Do you remember the cassette before the proliferation of the Dolby system? It hissed like a snake. Judicious use of the treble control helped to tame this monster somewhat. I recently bought a film made in the 70s, but the transfer to DVD was so bad that the sound track hissed as badly as those old non Dolby cassettes. On this occassion I sorely regretted not having a tone control.
Hi,
Yes I do and still use it now. I own a Nakamichi CR7 tape deck and have never used Dolby.Again if the Tape is matched correctley to the machine there is no need to use dolby.
I do agree with you that some transfers of old movies or soundtracks hiss a lot. I too have got a movie from the late 70s on DVD and you can hardley hear the sound. Not just hiss but very low in volume.
Wishing you merry christmas and a happy new year

Bernd

markw
12-19-2005, 02:18 AM
Hi,

Let me deal with the salt and pepper issue first. I am a trained chef and have worked in Michelin star kitchens and no there are no salt and pepper shakers on the tables.
If you need to enhance superbly created food with salt,pepper or tomato kechup you are in the wrong restaurant.It must be nice to dictate to gullible customers what their tastes are. You're right. I would be in the wrong restaurant. My restaurants exist to satisfy my tastes and pleasures. I don't exist to indulge their egos and satisfy their need to control. "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!"



Now to my point of listening how it was meant to be. I play the guitar and I will never recreate that pure sound on my rig.However I am aware that the recorded sound is manipulated as I have been lucky enough to witness several Studio recordings. What I mean is to listen to the finished (mixed and manipulated master tape). Some people obviousley feel the need to cary on the manipulation at home i.e. tone controls. It's your dime. Go knock yourself out.Thank you. I will. I find it amazing that those engineers back then knew your exact personal preferences and the exact acoustic environment that you were going to be playing them in, don't you? ...or is it more a simple fact of blindly accepting what you are told to accept is good sound, much like in your restaurants? I'm a bit more secure in accepting hte fact that what I like is what I like. I don't always feel the need to rely on others to tell me what I want.



I have several records from the 50s and 60s and after careful cleaning I wouldn't dream of messing with the result. A well set up TT will cut through all that and let the music shine. Only exception be if the record is dead. No tone controls will revive that.So, all records are the acoustic perfection you seek? That sounds more like a religion than a means of enjoyment.

Being transducers, turntables and speakers are the most euphonic items in the audio chain. By simply choosing them you are second guessing the engineer's original intent.

Again, I see you choose to sit comfortably believing that someone else knows what you like more than you do. It's easy when the decision making process is out of your hands, isn't it? No pressure to perform andsimply accept what's handed to you. I take it you've never heard a bad sounding record, eh? Funny, some of the original "Who" recordings from the 60's were among the worst sounding records ever made. Would you blindly accept them as is?

What, exactly, is a "dead" record anyway? One without any eq or reverb?



Have a merry christmas and a happy time twiddling those knobs

BerndThanks. Same to you, but continue to blindly accept what you're told is good for you..

Bernd
12-19-2005, 03:50 AM
It must be nice to dictate to gullible customers what their tastes are. You're right. I would be in the wrong restaurant. My restaurants exist to satisfy my tastes and pleasures. I don't exist to indulge their egos and satisfy their need to control. "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!"


Thank you. I will. I find it amazing that those engineers back then knew your exact personal preferences and the exact acoustic environment that you were going to be playing them in, don't you? ...or is it more a simple fact of blindly accepting what you are told to accept is good sound, much like in your restaurants? I'm a bit more secure in accepting hte fact that what I like is what I like. I don't always feel the need to rely on others to tell me what I want.


So, all records are the acoustic perfection you seek? That sounds more like a religion than a means of enjoyment.

Being transducers, turntables and speakers are the most euphonic items in the audio chain. By simply choosing them you are second guessing the engineer's original intent.

Again, I see you choose to sit comfortably believing that someone else knows what you like more than you do. It's easy when the decision making process is out of your hands, isn't it? No pressure to perform andsimply accept what's handed to you. I take it you've never heard a bad sounding record, eh? Funny, some of the original "Who" recordings from the 60's were among the worst sounding records ever made. Would you blindly accept them as is?

What, exactly, is a "dead" record anyway? One without any eq or reverb?


Thanks. Same to you, but continue to blindly accept what you're told is good for you..

Boy oh Boy.Have I hit a nerve?

I deal with your last point first.I am the least person who accepts what I am told ie.Moonlandings,Weapons of Mass destruction etc.

To me a dead record is a disc that has been abused and is unplayable. And you are right some of the recordings from the 60s , as for any aera, sound damn right bad.And therefore no amount of eq. or tone control will rectify that.I have yet to hear a badly recorded record made to sound good at home through manipulation.
Maybe you missunderstand my point of view.
As we are talking about art let's say a painting comes into your possesion which has been lying about in somebody's barn for decades. It's dirty (I mean dirt,like dust, not the other).So what do you do? Do you have it cleaned and see if you like it and enjoy it,or do you add a few brushstrokes of your own? How about a book? Do you add a few paragraphs or take some pages away?
As for the restaurants. To me a dish is the completed creation of the chef.It's not mass produced or fast food.So why spoil what somebody took time to perfect. Nobody makes you go into such a Restaurant.
My point is this: It can be cooking or painting or music etc. if somebody created something that then is to my mind the finished article. I feel absolutley no need to tamper with it.The manipulations during the creative process is just that.

As to listening at home. I would feel uncomfortable manipulating the sound willfully.I take your point that the system will add or subtract something. But that's called voicing of the equipment and we should buy accordingly to what we like.I do understand that some music lovers like to shape the sound with eq.tone controls etc.. All I am saying is I wouldn't be to happy doing that.
Phew-glad I got that of my chest.

So have a merry christmas and enjoy what ever you do

Bernd

E-Stat
12-19-2005, 06:19 AM
I have several records from the 50s and 60s and after careful cleaning I wouldn't dream of messing with the result. A well set up TT will cut through all that and let the music shine. Only exception be if the record is dead. No tone controls will revive that.
Agreed. I have thirty plus year old vinyl that still sounds great. Perhaps that is because I've been using a VPI cleaning machine for the past 22 years! Seriously damaged records are tossed and replaced.

I do, however, see the need for an EQ at the bottom of the scale for my HT. I plan to buy a cheapie Behringer unit to run with my subwoofers to smooth out the response.

rw

Bernd
12-19-2005, 06:34 AM
Agreed. I have thirty plus year old vinyl that still sounds great. Perhaps that is because I've been using a VPI cleaning machine for the past 22 years! Seriously damaged records are tossed and replaced.

I do, however, see the need for an EQ at the bottom of the scale for my HT. I plan to buy a cheapie Behringer unit to run with my subwoofers to smooth out the response.

rw

Hi,
I also use a VPI and a good clean will most of the time make all the difference, and yes the serious damaged ones are tossed and replaced here too,if possible. I have absolutley no experience or knowledge of HT. So maybe that is where your EQ or Tone controlls will come in useful.Whatever you do just enjoy.

Bernd

Bernd
12-19-2005, 06:46 AM
Hello GMichael,
How are you doing?Are you into twisting or not?

Bernd

GMichael
12-19-2005, 06:48 AM
So, it seems that some of us like tone controls, and some of us don't. Others like salt & pepper, while others don't. Hmmm... How can we make everyone happy? I know, anyone who doesn't like tone controls, please don't use them. Anyone who does, should indulge in any twisting of them that they like. Twisting is fun.
As for the salt & pepper? This is not as black and white as it may seem. I'll have to think about it some more.

markw
12-19-2005, 06:59 AM
Boy oh Boy.Have I hit a nerve?]Not quite a nerve, but my BS detector is flying off the scale.


I deal with your last point first.I am the least person who accepts what I am told ie.Moonlandings,Weapons of Mass destruction etc.So, are you saying you don't believe the moon landing was real?


To me a dead record is a disc that has been abused and is unplayable. And you are right some of the recordings from the 60s , as for any aera, sound damn right bad.And therefore no amount of eq. or tone control will rectify that.I have yet to hear a badly recorded record made to sound good at home through manipulationMaybe not "good" but in some cases "better". My choice of music is determined more by the musical content than the quality of the recording. That's a curse of being more into music than equipment.


Maybe you missunderstand my point of view.From your next paragraph, I doubt it.


As we are talking about art let's say a painting comes into your possesion which has been lying about in somebody's barn for decades. It's dirty (I mean dirt,like dust, not the other).So what do you do? Do you have it cleaned and see if you like it and enjoy it,or do you add a few brushstrokes of your own? How about a book? Do you add a few paragraphs or take some pages away?You really think this a good analogy, doncha? Well, first off, to physically alter the painting is one thing and I would not even think of that. Now, if you're talking about a digital rendering of said painting, I see no great sacrilege in going into photoshop and giving the Mona Lisa a moustache. The source isn't altered. ...same situation in a recording.

Your book analogy is simply stupid.

.

As for the restaurants. To me a dish is the completed creation of the chef.It's not mass produced or fast food.So why spoil what somebody took time to perfect. Nobody makes you go into such a Restaurant.You're right. Nobody makes me go into those restaurants but, if I do wind up in one (and I have) and I ask for catsup, they better provide it if they want to get paid.


My point is this: It can be cooking or painting or music etc. if somebody created something that then is to my mind the finished article. I feel absolutley no need to tamper with it.The manipulations during the creative process is just that.
I have all sorts of tonecontrols on my Guitar amp and I dare say if I would be any good I would use them to "create" what I want. Again, exactly where do you stand on those moon landings?


As to listening at home. I would feel uncomfortable manipulating the sound willfully.I take your point that the system will add or subtract something. But that's called voicing of the equipment and we should buy accordingly to what we like.I do understand that some music lovers like to shape the sound with eq.tone controls etc.. All I am saying is I wouldn't be to happy doing that.I guess we each have our own comfort zones. Me, If I feel the overall sound can be improved by a slight dip in the midrange or highs, I have no problems insulting the artist or engineer involved. They are not in my home nor did they pay for the privilege to do so,



Phew-glad I got that of my chest.{/QUOTE]I'm glad. I still don't buy it, though. This hobby does attract anal retentive.

[QUOTE=Bernd]So have a merry christmas and enjoy what ever you do

BerndSame to you.

Bernd
12-19-2005, 07:07 AM
Not quite a nerve, but my BS detector is flying off the scale.

So, are you saying you don't believe the moon landing was real?

Maybe not "good" but in some cases "better". My choice of music is determined more by the musical content than the quality of the recording. That's a curse of being more into music than equipment.

From your next paragraph, I doubt it.

You really think this a good analogy, doncha? Well, first off, to physically alter the painting is one thing and I would not even think of that. Now, if you're talking about a digital rendering of said painting, I see no great sacrilege in going into photoshop and giving the Mona Lisa a moustache. The source isn't altered. ...same situation in a recording.

Your book analogy is simply stupid.

.
You're right. Nobody makes me go into those restaurants but, if I do wind up in one (and I have) and I ask for catsup, they better provide it if they want to get paid.

Again, exactly where do you stand on those moon landings?

I guess we each have our own comfort zones. Me, If I feel the overall sound can be improved by a slight dip in the midrange or highs, I have no problems insulting the artist or engineer involved. They are not in my home nor did they pay for the privilege to do so,


Same to you.

Hi,

We just have to agree to differ. And if you feel the need to be insulting so be it. I have very broad shoulders.
And to your question. No I do not believe in the Moon Landings.

Take it easy

Bernd

GMichael
12-19-2005, 07:20 AM
Hello GMichael,
How are you doing?Are you into twisting or not?

Bernd


I resist twisting as I know that it changes the sound from it's original intent. But sometimes I can't help myself.
I don't agree with how some CD's were recorded or mixed so I do it my way. Mostly I leave it on defeat at home but do a little twisting in the car. In the house, when a CD with lower highs comes on, it still sounds good. But in the car, when that same CD comes on, it sounds muffled and in need of help. So, I help it.

As far as the salt & pepper thing. It's about the same for me. At home the food is fine (I do most of the cooking). When I go out, food seems a little bland, so I help it out a bit. This is actually common. I worked at a restaurant for a few years. We were told to keep it bland. Their thinking was this. If the food is a little bland people can add S&P as they choose. But if it's too spicy then they can't fix it themselves and either, complain, or not return, or both. So we kept it bland to appeal to the mass market, I guess you could say.

Florian
12-19-2005, 07:40 AM
Thats the same reason i adisagree with almost all the big names on here! I want 100% of whats on the recording and not a altered sound that pleases me. Exactly why people cant talk to me, they dont want correctness but what they like.

GMichael
12-19-2005, 07:53 AM
Thats the same reason i adisagree with almost all the big names on here! I want 100% of whats on the recording and not a altered sound that pleases me. Exactly why people cant talk to me, they dont want correctness but what they like.


Hey Flo, What' shakin'?

I do agree with some of what you are saying. The artist(s) does, or should, know more than me about recording & mixing. On a reference system such as yours, you probably don't find a need to change anything. I don't even change anything on my home system. But my car's Bose system needs help from time to time. Just like the cheap ars restaurant I worked at needed S&P more than a good high quality one would. But If I ask for salt, they better bring it to me. If not, I'm atta here man. I do have that, "I am the customer" mantality. And that makes me right about anything I am paying for. Otherwise, I don't pay.

But we can still talk right? :p

markw
12-19-2005, 07:59 AM
Now that's suffering for your art!. ;)

Do you feel the same about the seat adjustments in your car?

Bernd
12-19-2005, 08:41 AM
I resist twisting as I know that it changes the sound from it's original intent. But sometimes I can't help myself.
I don't agree with how some CD's were recorded or mixed so I do it my way. Mostly I leave it on defeat at home but do a little twisting in the car. In the house, when a CD with lower highs comes on, it still sounds good. But in the car, when that same CD comes on, it sounds muffled and in need of help. So, I help it.

As far as the salt & pepper thing. It's about the same for me. At home the food is fine (I do most of the cooking). When I go out, food seems a little bland, so I help it out a bit. This is actually common. I worked at a restaurant for a few years. We were told to keep it bland. Their thinking was this. If the food is a little bland people can add S&P as they choose. But if it's too spicy then they can't fix it themselves and either, complain, or not return, or both. So we kept it bland to appeal to the mass market, I guess you could say.
Hi,
About the salt & pepper thing. Restaurants are a little bit like our audio passion. Once you reach the upper bracket you not only pay for using the restaurant and service but also for the talent and creativity of the Chef and his kitchen.

So with Audio once you reach a certain level you'll find that you don't really need
to manipulate the sound,or something is wrong with the setup.

Anyway we had the B.O.T. here today-ALL DAY.

Bernd

GMichael
12-19-2005, 08:49 AM
Hi,
About the salt & pepper thing. Restaurants are a little bit like our audio passion. Once you reach the upper bracket you not only pay for using the restaurant and service but also for the talent and creativity of the Chef and his kitchen.

So with Audio once you reach a certain level you'll find that you don't really need
to manipulate the sound,or something is wrong with the setup.

Anyway we had the B.O.T. here today-ALL DAY.

Bernd

I have no doubt that you are correct. When I have gone out to very nice restaurants, there was no need to do any extra seasoning. But I do think that it should be up to me to choose. Not everyone likes the same taste. They have different tastes. Some like sour while others don't.
If it means anything, I always taste my food before even thinking of touching the salt etc. If it isn't broken, I don't fix t.

No B.O.T. here today. Snow flurries so far. There is talk of the B.O.T. coming out later but they're not sure.

GMichael
12-19-2005, 09:01 AM
Oh, not that my wife ever touches the tone controls but, she is from the Philippines. They have different tastes in food for sure. They (she) puts something they call banana ketchup on spaghetti & lasagna etc. I cringe when she asks me to get it from the fridge but I get it for her. I could spend all weekend making the perfect sauce and she'll still want that crap instead. But it's her food once it hits her plate. Yick!

Bernd
12-19-2005, 09:22 AM
I have no doubt that you are correct. When I have gone out to very nice restaurants, there was no need to do any extra seasoning. But I do think that it should be up to me to choose. Not everyone likes the same taste. They have different tastes. Some like sour while others don't.
If it means anything, I always taste my food before even thinking of touching the salt etc. If it isn't broken, I don't fix t.

No B.O.T. here today. Snow flurries so far. There is talk of the B.O.T. coming out later but they're not sure.

I totally agree with you.It's your right to choose. Just to put this Salt & Pepper thing to bed. I am talking of those upper 1% of reastaurants where you'll have to book 6 months or more in advance. No Salt and Pepper there. Again you can choose to go there or not. When I was still working as a Chef ,a situation occured in a very famous restaurant in London (it will remain nameless here). After waiting for six months the nouveau rich customer asked for Salt and the chef came out of the Kitchen with a large ladle full of salt and promptley placed it on the plate. Asking "Is that enough".Temperamental creatures those highly talent Cooks.
The caliber of staff in those places is exceptional high and you pay for their talent.And this is the last I will say on that.

I have just sent the B.O.T. over to you.

Bernd

GMichael
12-19-2005, 09:30 AM
I totally agree with you.It's your right to choose. Just to put this Salt & Pepper thing to bed. I am talking of those upper 1% of reastaurants where you'll have to book 6 months or more in advance. No Salt and Pepper there. Again you can choose to go there or not. When I was still working as a Chef ,a situation occured in a very famous restaurant in London (it will remain nameless here). After waiting for six months the nouveau rich customer asked for Salt and the chef came out of the Kitchen with a large ladle full of salt and promptley placed it on the plate. Asking "Is that enough".Temperamental creatures those highly talent Cooks.
The caliber of staff in those places is exceptional high and you pay for their talent.And this is the last I will say on that.

I have just sent the B.O.T. over to you.

Bernd

One question begs to be asked. Were you the "temperamental, highly talented cook who dumped the salt on rich boy's plate?

Not here yet, but the clouds do seem brighter.

bjornb17
12-19-2005, 09:41 AM
But it's her food once it hits her plate. Yick!

LOL .

JohnMichael
12-19-2005, 09:45 AM
I agree with no salt and pepper at top shelf restaurants. At least until you taste the chef's creation. It is nice to order and have a little variation due to the chef's passion and creativity that night. I have a favorite restaurant in Quebec city where the chef serves his foie gras appetizer and it varies nightly. It is something you look forward to when you sit down and order some wine. I am hungry. I am not in Quebec so I guess my meal will be supersized and it won't need any more salt either.

Bernd
12-19-2005, 10:24 AM
One question begs to be asked. Were you the "temperamental, highly talented cook who dumped the salt on rich boy's plate?

Not here yet, but the clouds do seem brighter.

I am very even tempered!!!!

I am going to spin some discs pure and clear as a mountain stream.

So long.

Bernd

GMichael
12-19-2005, 11:21 AM
I am very even tempered!!!!

I am going to spin some discs pure and clear as a mountain stream.

So long.

Bernd

Hahahaha.. Enjoy the music.

B.O.T. has arrived. Thanks.

StanleyMuso
12-19-2005, 04:51 PM
I can recommend a machiene that will flatten the records again if your interested.
What sort of machine is it? And what do you mean by flatten?

If its just a cleaning machine, please rest assured that I have always been anal about my records, and every record I have is cleaner than when I bought them. I clean them before I play them (anti-static gun, wet cleaning and dust bug which collects dirt as you play) and a final wipe with a felt cleaning rod before going back into the sleave. I clean also my stylus before every play, and have it checked regularly for wear, and probably change it more often than I need to.

The sort of problems I was talking about earlier are not ones caused by dirt which is present now, but probably caused by previous owners who may have played them dirty or with a worn stylus. All the records I bought myself from new are still in good condition. However, I inherited a lot of rare recordings, and unlike some people in the threads above, I will not throw them out. This is about the music first, and some old recordings just cannot be replaced.

Again, I think some people are taking a too fundamentalist an approach to tone controls. I agree, an artist's work should be enjoyed as he or she created it. But if it is covered by the dirt or damage of the ages, is it not better to overcome this veil of noise which is obscuring their creation and try to glimpse what it is they have created? I am sure a Toscanini or any of the other greats from the past would not object to me trying to dampen the obscuring crap which stops me hearing their wonderful and unique interpretations of great music.

Florian
12-19-2005, 11:32 PM
Yes i do suffer for my ART but its not really suffering. Its hard for people to imagine the sound of a larger planar, but they do not always sound large and overpowering at all. On some old Jazz records they will draw a picture the scale of a minimonitor. Its like you have a old tube radio sitting on your CDP! Quite astonishing and needed in order to realisticly reproduce whats on the recording. I love hisses and cracks on a record.

For me its like this

CD=Beautiful precise picture
Vinyl=A life statue

The statue has minor defekts and small but is 3 dimensinal and has a life and charcater. CD doesnt, its very precise but it remains a picture. I wont comment on SACD, DVD-A....waste of time in my book :D

PS: I am currently not at home this week, but will look for the machiene which flattens the records and write it here soon. Takes about 8hrs for one tough!

Bernd
12-20-2005, 12:42 AM
What sort of machine is it? And what do you mean by flatten?

If its just a cleaning machine, please rest assured that I have always been anal about my records, and every record I have is cleaner than when I bought them. I clean them before I play them (anti-static gun, wet cleaning and dust bug which collects dirt as you play) and a final wipe with a felt cleaning rod before going back into the sleave. I clean also my stylus before every play, and have it checked regularly for wear, and probably change it more often than I need to.

The sort of problems I was talking about earlier are not ones caused by dirt which is present now, but probably caused by previous owners who may have played them dirty or with a worn stylus. All the records I bought myself from new are still in good condition. However, I inherited a lot of rare recordings, and unlike some people in the threads above, I will not throw them out. This is about the music first, and some old recordings just cannot be replaced.

Again, I think some people are taking a too fundamentalist an approach to tone controls. I agree, an artist's work should be enjoyed as he or she created it. But if it is covered by the dirt or damage of the ages, is it not better to overcome this veil of noise which is obscuring their creation and try to glimpse what it is they have created? I am sure a Toscanini or any of the other greats from the past would not object to me trying to dampen the obscuring crap which stops me hearing their wonderful and unique interpretations of great music.

Hi,

I agree. I am also very peticular with my analogue playback rig and everything it entails. If I can replace a worn out record with a better I will through the bad one out. If not they will stay and often I buy a repressing to play. Same as you with my stylus. I use StyleLast before every side and many of my new records are cleaner now then when I bought them.
The Tone control thing to me is all about choice.Like I said before I wouldn't feel comfortable not knowing if my manipulated sound is correct and also what micro information I would miss by using the controlls.


Enjoy

Bernd

GMichael
12-20-2005, 06:11 AM
Yes i do suffer for my ART but its not really suffering. Its hard for people to imagine the sound of a larger planar, but they do not always sound large and overpowering at all. On some old Jazz records they will draw a picture the scale of a minimonitor. Its like you have a old tube radio sitting on your CDP! Quite astonishing and needed in order to realisticly reproduce whats on the recording. I love hisses and cracks on a record.

For me its like this

CD=Beautiful precise picture
Vinyl=A life statue

The statue has minor defekts and small but is 3 dimensinal and has a life and charcater. CD doesnt, its very precise but it remains a picture. I wont comment on SACD, DVD-A....waste of time in my book :D

PS: I am currently not at home this week, but will look for the machiene which flattens the records and write it here soon. Takes about 8hrs for one tough!

Hey Flo,

What do you listen to music with when you are away from home? I find it difficult to be away for that long.

I look foward to the day that I get to live with planners.

Florian
12-20-2005, 07:36 AM
Well i pass my time with the laptop. I play some DiabloII and when i listen to music i use my Sony Reference headphones. I am going to a Jazz club tonight tough but first i need a haircut. I went shopping yesterday and bought the "Pillars of Might from Ken Follett" and will read it while listening to some life tunes. Good for a reference ;-)

GMichael
12-20-2005, 07:42 AM
Well i pass my time with the laptop. I play some DiabloII and when i listen to music i use my Sony Reference headphones. I am going to a Jazz club tonight tough but first i need a haircut. I went shopping yesterday and bought the "Pillars of Might from Ken Follett" and will read it while listening to some life tunes. Good for a reference ;-)

I Jazz club huh? Haven't been out to one in years. Enjoy yourself and have a safe trip.

Florian
12-20-2005, 07:46 AM
I Jazz club huh? Haven't been out to one in years. Enjoy yourself and have a safe trip.
Thanks! First i have to grade these papers and then i will leave. I am pretty close to it on my home system, i just need a tick more body and downward dynamic range and a few hundret watts more.

--Flo

Resident Loser
12-29-2005, 08:44 AM
...I'm a day late and a dollar short once again...but hoooo-boy, I can't resist...first we have der grand poo-bah-know-it-all, threadjacking a simple question re: the workings of certain tone controls into a diatribe against their use or inclusion and then there's this:


Hi,

Let me deal with the salt and pepper issue first. I am a trained chef and have worked in Michelin star kitchens and no there are no salt and pepper shakers on the tables.
If you need to enhance superbly created food with salt,pepper or tomato kechup you are in the wrong restaurant.

...which I will deal with presently...but first...

Tone controls are rarely, if ever, used(at least by those who know better) to take up the slack in the room/loudspeaker interface...Equalizers are much better suited to the task...they, of course, should be used judiciously and only after all mechanical means have been exhausted...

There is absolutely no reason(other than "purist" conceits) that tone controls should not be used to augment "lesser" program material. There are far too many variables in the recording process for anyone, anywhere to be that certain of the artist/engineers/producers intent. Unless one knows precisely what loudspeakers/et cetera were used and can replicate the environment in which they were used, it's a cr@pshoot, an educated guess at best.

I own vinyl, some of which requires a certain amount of hi-cut, some a bit of low boost and some of which could use a soupcon(yes, we have no cedilla) of both...there are many recordings that were engineered to sound good on AM car radios...others, particularly 60s Brit-pop, that have entirely too much top-end and/or no bottom to speak of when played back on decent hi-fi set-ups...Then of course, there are pressings that pre-date RIAA EQ standardization...

One could try to make an argument for recordings of historical note...this is what they sounded like so yada, yada, yada...My response is: you should play your wax cylinders on an Edison talking machine and your single-sided laquers on a console Victrola...otherwise, I want the option of salt, pepper AND ketchup(or catsup, if you prefer)...

...meanwhile back at the ranch...I rarely use salt. There is far too much of it in the food we eat, most of which occurs naturally...It can be hard for some to kick the habit and requires education of the palate to do so...Pepper? When dining out, I carry a small mill with me, filled with Tellicherry...never using the old, stale stuff provided...I always taste before using any S&P...If Jacques Pepin himself were to serve me Potatoes Lyonnaise with a five-star entree, chances are I'd probably use some pepper(I happen to like the pungent flavor it adds) and hey!, it's my dime...If he served them with scrambled eggs, I'd be lookin' for the ketchup...after all, they're only home-fries with a pedigree...

Soooo, while one shouldn't habitually knee-jerk salt on everything shoved into the pie-hole, neither should they have the bass and treble cranked to "10" because it sounds "cool" or whatever...however, the ability to use all things in moderation, as required, can enhance the respective experience.

jimHJJ(...nothing is "perfect" for you until you make it so...)