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relayer
12-12-2005, 08:07 PM
I have just upgraded my stereo system from an NAD 7175 to Rotel RC971 pre and an RB981 power amp.The NAD had substantialy more deep low end. I have Siefert Research Paragon Speakers and the low end from the NAD made it uneccessary to add a SUB. Now It seems I desperetely need a SUB. The NAD seemed much smoother. Am I missing something here? :confused:

RJW1138
12-12-2005, 08:42 PM
Some possibilities:

- It's the interconnects you're using between your pre and your amp that are lacking in bass and smoothness
- The Rotel gear isn't broken in yet
- You're actually hearing more accurate bass. You were used to what you had and thought it was right, but it was actually overemphasized, and now it's more accurate

Hmm...any possibility it's any of these? If not, I really don't know. Did you listen to the Rotel gear before you bought it and it didn't exhibit these weaknesses? Can you talk to your dealer about it?

kexodusc
12-13-2005, 05:06 AM
Some possibilities:

It's the interconnects you're using between your pre and your amp that are lacking in bass and smoothness

If your interconnects haven't changed you shouldn't consider these as a potential source of the problem. Geez, we still don't have substantiated scientific evidence that interconnects can contribute to sound differences, despite asking for it for over 30 years, pretty sure it's not your cables.


- The Rotel gear isn't broken in yet
Wouldn't worry about that either, transformers, caps, resistors etc usually perform pretty uniformly from beginning to end.


- You're actually hearing more accurate bass. You were used to what you had and thought it was right, but it was actually overemphasized, and now it's more accurate
I think this is quite possible. I have 2 NAD integrateds that I love, but they definitely sound to me as though they have a deliberately emphasised midbass/bass compared to my RA-1070. I like the Rotel's overall balance and fidelity more, but the NAD's have been with me most of my life and I still use quite frequently, they have a certain punchiness I like.

Still, I generally find tonal differences in amps to be subtle. Did your NAD have the EQ cranked up or something perhaps? Are the speakers connected in correct polarity?

My Rotel definitely isn't lacking in the bass, it could be possible there's something wrong with your unit...every now and then one slips through the cracks. Hopefully it's just something small like a speaker hooked up in reverse....let us know how you make out.

FLZapped
12-13-2005, 07:18 AM
Some possibilities:

- It's the interconnects you're using between your pre and your amp that are lacking in bass and smoothness

Considering interconnects behave as low-pass filters, this isn't very likely unless they have additional circuitry to cause this to happen.



- The Rotel gear isn't broken in yet


Doubt this would make any audible difference in bass.



- You're actually hearing more accurate bass. You were used to what you had and thought it was right, but it was actually overemphasized, and now it's more accurate



By far the greatest possibility.

-Bruce

RJW1138
12-13-2005, 09:11 AM
If your interconnects haven't changed you shouldn't consider these as a potential source of the problem. Geez, we still don't have substantiated scientific evidence that interconnects can contribute to sound differences, despite asking for it for over 30 years, pretty sure it's not your cables.

Well, since the NAD was an integrated, and now he's using a seperate pre & amp, I assumed that the interconnects were a new addition. No?

Also, have you never heard differences in cables? I sure have, in my system, and I have an incredibly modest system to boot. I've heard differences between 5 interconnects from Nordost and AudioQuest ranging from $70 to $250. And no, the more expensive ones weren't always better. I don't have an agenda or any biases. I just have a great set of ears, and I can definitely hear differences between cables. Sometimes they're very subtle, sometimes they're not. True, there's usually more difference in midrange, treble, detail and airyness than there is in bass response, but it does still happen. But bottom line, I don't feel foolish for suggesting that it could be the interconnects, IF those are new to the system.



Wouldn't worry about that either, transformers, caps, resistors etc usually perform pretty uniformly from beginning to end.

Again, I've heard differences due to the breaking in of my CD player, so I perfectly accept the theory of electronics break-in. Although, this is usually very subtle, so it would be a stretch to think that it was seriously affecting the bass response...but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways.

kexodusc
12-13-2005, 09:37 AM
Well, since the NAD was an integrated, and now he's using a seperate pre & amp, I assumed that the interconnects were a new addition. No?
Again, it's possible....I was thinking the interconnects connecting source to pre-amp would be the same.


Also, have you never heard differences in cables? I sure have, in my system, and I have an incredibly modest system to boot. I've heard differences between 5 interconnects from Nordost and AudioQuest ranging from $70 to $250. And no, the more expensive ones weren't always better. I don't have an agenda or any biases. I just have a great set of ears, and I can definitely hear differences between cables. Sometimes they're very subtle, sometimes they're not. True, there's usually more difference in midrange, treble, detail and airyness than there is in bass response, but it does still happen. But bottom line, I don't feel foolish for suggesting that it could be the interconnects, IF those are new to the system. Yep, I believe I've heard differences in cables, just none so radically apparent that they'd affect bass. If anything, it's a very subtle difference in the top end, IMO. Just can't see interconnects making such a profound difference in this case. Stranger things have happened though.



Again, I've heard differences due to the breaking in of my CD player, so I perfectly accept the theory of electronics break-in. Although, this is usually very subtle, so it would be a stretch to think that it was seriously affecting the bass response...but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways.

Breaking in your CD player? That's a new one for me. What did you observe? How long?

Speakers I've heard, and measured break-in characteristics. I believe there could be some merit to amplifiers burning in, but this wouldn't take very long at all.

Just nothing that matches the systems of a large loss of bass response.

LeoFenderBender
12-13-2005, 10:30 AM
Presuming you aren't experiencing phase cancellation from speakers hooked up with the wrong polarity, I'd guess you're actually hearing more accurate bass.

Speakers are mechanical devices and, as such, have a breakin period - electronic components (other than the nearly instantaneous process of forming electrolytic caps) don't need a breakin. If you can hear a difference, I am in awe.

RJW1138
12-13-2005, 11:59 AM
Breaking in your CD player? That's a new one for me. What did you observe? How long?

Speakers I've heard, and measured break-in characteristics. I believe there could be some merit to amplifiers burning in, but this wouldn't take very long at all.

Just nothing that matches the systems of a large loss of bass response.

Yeah, I recently acquired a Cambridge Audio 640C, and before it was broken-in the treble was somewhat hard, brittle sounding, and fatiguing. After about 20 or 30 hours of break-in, this was tamed, and I could now finally use the adjective smooth to describe the treble. I didn't like it the way it was, but now I do like it the way it is. It's not a HUGE difference if you're not picky or don't have the ears to distinguish it, but I know that I am and do.

I also heard break-in with my speakers, but I think this phenomenon is a lot easier to understand and accept as speakers are mechanical devices, whose parts get used and exposed to forces and temperatures.

I may only have a modest system, but that's due to finances. If I had the cash, I'd have a damn expensive system, because I DO have the ears and pickyness to warrant it. Some day, I will own a great system, and yes, it will have great interconnects too.

E-Stat
12-13-2005, 01:55 PM
I have just upgraded my stereo system from an NAD 7175 to Rotel RC971 pre and an RB981 power amp.The NAD had substantialy more deep low end.
The Rotel amp has a much higher damping factor which is needed by some speakers to keep their response linear. The NAD's response would track somewhat with what looks like a roller coaster found in the impedance curve with some speakers. Here's an inexpensive experiment you might try suggested by a gentlemen over at AA:

Put a 1 or 2 ohm 5 watt resistor in series to one of the speaker leads. They can be found inexpensively at a Radio Shack or other electronics store. Disconnect either of the leads from the back of the speaker and attach one end of the resistor to the speaker and the other to the wire. Do the same with the other speaker.

This has the effect of lowering the damping factor of the amp. If you're willing to throw away a couple of bucks, you might try it. Tube amps similarly have lower damping factors and some older speakers were voiced with them. SS amps with high DF lose the original voicing.

rw

relayer
12-13-2005, 03:02 PM
Some possibilities:

- It's the interconnects you're using between your pre and your amp that are lacking in bass and smoothness
I will experiment with a few different interconnects and see what happens
- The Rotel gear isn't broken in yet
The gear was purchased used from a private party so I am assumming that the units are broken in (not broke)
- You're actually hearing more accurate bass. You were used to what you had and thought it was right, but it was actually overemphasized, and now it's more accurate
I think this is a good possibility. I used the Bass eq button on the NAD. I usually listen at low volumes so this helped.
Hmm...any possibility it's any of these? If not, I really don't know. Did you listen to the Rotel gear before you bought it and it didn't exhibit these weaknesses? Can you talk to your dealer about it?
Thanks for the response

relayer
12-13-2005, 03:07 PM
The Rotel amp has a much higher damping factor which is needed by some speakers to keep their response linear. The NAD's response would track somewhat with what looks like a roller coaster found in the impedance curve with some speakers. Here's an inexpensive experiment you might try suggested by a gentlemen over at AA:

Put a 1 or 2 ohm 5 watt resistor in series to one of the speaker leads. They can be found inexpensively at a Radio Shack or other electronics store. Disconnect either of the leads from the back of the speaker and attach one end of the resistor to the speaker and the other to the wire. Do the same with the other speaker.

This has the effect of lowering the damping factor of the amp. If you're willing to throw away a couple of bucks, you might try it. Tube amps similarly have lower damping factors and some older speakers were voiced with them. SS amps with high DF lose the original voicing.

rw
I will give it a try.
Thanks,
relayer

relayer
12-20-2005, 11:00 AM
I have just upgraded my stereo system from an NAD 7175 to Rotel RC971 pre and an RB981 power amp.The NAD had substantialy more deep low end. I have Siefert Research Paragon Speakers and the low end from the NAD made it uneccessary to add a SUB. Now It seems I desperetely need a SUB. The NAD seemed much smoother. Am I missing something here? :confused:
Since my last post I have upgraded my speaker cable and interconnects. I have installed spikes on my speakers and experimented with speaker placement. Speaker placement was probably the biggest factor as was the speaker cable (Gepco Hi Def) I was amazed at what a few inches will do as far as speaker placement goes. I think I was suffering from too much low end from the NAD since I was using the bass eq with that unit. Things are starting to come together. The only problem is I am already looking towards my next gear upgrade! Thanks for all the replies.
relayer

E-Stat
12-20-2005, 11:10 AM
Speaker placement was probably the biggest factor as was the speaker cable (Gepco Hi Def) I was amazed at what a few inches will do as far as speaker placement goes.
I'm glad you resolved the issue. I know the friendly folks at Gepco since they are one of my customers.


... since I was using the bass eq with that unit.
Yes that will definitely affect the apparent low end response!

rw