Sound of Apogee's versus regular speakers.

[vlastoc]

Hi Florian and the others.

I've read much about planar speakers on this discussion board and it seems they are perfect (though I've never heard any of them). Therefore I'm quite much curious if you ever had the possibility to directly compare overall sound of e.g. Apogee's against some very expensive regular speakers and subjectively (objectively) write up their pro-and-con, which are better.

Apogee Diva vs.:

Wilson Audio Alexandria
Focal Grande Utopia Beryllium
Sonus Faber Stradivari
Avalon Sentinel
Audio Physic Kronos
Dynaudio Evidence
B&W Nautilus
.
.
.

Sorry, if this was discussed before, or if such question irritates someone.

peace
Vlasto.

[Florian]

A thread like this will turn into a huge flame war from those who cant stand me and therefore i can offer to call you and tell you my opinion about these rare and exusite systems. I'll just say this, you forgot the real competition which is the Infinity IRS-V, Genesis 1.1 and Genesis 2, Wilson X2, Alon Grand Exotica and the Martin Logan E2. ;)

Here goes one comment from a visitor from Positive Feedback.


Now to the Wilsons: I heard the X2 in a BIG room powered by a Pass X350 and I was pretty impressed overall by the sound. It has a physicallity that is nice but I think the Divas I heard at Florian's (in a MUCH smaller room though) were overall better. However, in a room that size the Wilsons probably would have an advantage overall (as they should for 120K).
I have heard the original MAXX and it was pretty good. I heard the Watt/puppy 6 and thought it sucked. The Watt/puppy 7 with all VTL and DCS gear was pretty good but a bit hard sounding. The Sophia, ironically, seems the best balanced of the whole bunch.

[theaudiohobby]

I suggest you also consult Stereophile's extensive reviews archive. Why? Most of those who offer opinions on these boards only have so much money and time to experiment with the gear and with all due respect to Florian and Brad (who Florian quoted), both of them are great Apogee fans, and try as hard as they may, they simply do not have the extensive experience of the likes of John Atkinson, Robert Greene or Micheal Fremer when it comes to Loudspeaker evaluation.

Now I am not saying that what these guys say is gospel, it is not. That said read closely and note everywhere the technical measurements correlate with the listening impression (i.e. alarm bells). By the way, the speakers you mentioned bar the Avalons, have some of the longest reviews in the archive. Saying the best reviews I have ever seen in English speaking magazines come from the Audio Critic and Audio Express, they are very comprehensive and make Stereophiles et al reviews look very patchy.

[Florian]

True thats why Ken Kessler and Jon Atkinsons both love Apogees ;-)

Anyway it doesnt matter who you guys believe, just listen to one with the matching room and electronics or ask Eric. who owns the 126000$ Alon and judge for yourselfs

This is from Jon Atkinson on the Apogee Scintilla :p


Visually imposing, room fussy, amplifier fussy heavy and awkward, the Scintillas are nevertheless the finest, most transparent, most musically pleasing loudspeakers I have ever had the privilege to use. .

[theaudiohobby]

True thats why Ken Kessler and Jon Atkinsons both love Apogees ;-)

Anyway it doesnt matter who you guys believe, just listen to one with the matching room and electronics or ask Eric. who owns the 126000$ Alon and judge for yourselfs.

Agreed :-), however vlastoc will like to know what makes these speakers different from one another, I doubt that even Eric can reliably tell the differences between his Alons, Soundlabs M1 and AvantGarde Trio, only so much time and only so much room :-)

[theaudiohobby]

Florian,

Best you get him to read the whole review, why did you not just link it, which is extensive by the way and most enlightning.

[Florian]

Sure, just go here and click on REVIEW

http://www.apogeespeakers.info/

They are all wonderfull and i will gladly host you a listening session :)

[Florian]

adeI should add that these are what i consider the holy grail,,,, of audio (not in order)

Soundlab U1
Apogee DIVA, Fullrange, Scintilla, Studio Grand, Grand
Perigee Definitive
Kharma Ex.
Avalon Eidolon Diamond
Alon Grand Exotica
Magnepan MG20.1
Infinity IRS-V
Genesis 1.1 Genesis II and the 350SE
Martin Logan E2
DALI Megaline

It doesnt matter which one you own, they are all awsome in their own way. My friends who own some of these dont fight and argue, we can respect each other since we know that its the best of the best and only different sonically depending on taste.

[vlastoc]

Thanx guys for the answers.
I know that I can read so many reviews on the net, but my aim was to get infos not from reviewers, but from common users from such discussions board like this one is. On the other hand, I know that's almost impossible to listen all those equipments under the same testing conditions. Anyway, thanx for infos and Florian, I appreciate your opinions, if you send me email to vlastoc@szm.sk in case of your free time..

vlasto(c).

[patpong]

"Apogee all the way..........." , I want that to be my first word on this forum.........

[paulo m]

I had a chance to listen to the Grande Utopias a couple of months ago. They were set up with the top of the line dCS transport and DAC and driven by a pair of VTL Siegfrieds. They sounded really good, with a vivid impression of 'being there'. Listening to Stockhausen's Klavierstucke was really like listening to those pieces in concert, depth and localization were excellent and the speakers vanished completely. Despite all that I felt they lacked a certain engaging quality--the music is there in front of you rather than around you. I believe this could have been caused by the size of the room they were in (it was quite big) and its acoustics. The top of the line Synergistic Cables used also have given me that impression in other listening sessions, so they might have contributed to that feeling of detachment.

Compare that experience with one I had with a pair of Martin Logan Monoliths in the early 90s. The sound was there too, in front of you, but it was much closer. Depth and localization were utterly holographic. They were amazingly engaging. The room was smaller than the one with the Utopias but still not that small.

At the end of the day, I prefer the planar sound (I just bought a pair of Martin Logan Vantages). I would probably have to go really high on the scale to find a non-planar that is thoroughly enjoyable. But then, I doubt my floor would be able to withstand speakers that weigh 200 kg and up each.

//p

[Florian]

Welcome planar lovers....let the music flow and dont enprison it in boxes! :5:

[Woochifer]

Perfect speaker? No such thing. Every speaker has a compromise of some kind. The degree of liability that you attribute to these compromises will vary depending on the source, and your own preferences.

In the mid-80s, I spent plenty of time with the Apogee Duettas, and to a lesser extent, the Full Range. While I liked them with acoustic music, they just didn't do it for me with amplified instruments and hip hop. Other flagship speakers such as the Infinity IRS, Klipsch K-horn, Dynaudio Evidence Master, or the Dunlavy SC-IV handle those sources better IMO, while still retaining a high degree of musicality with acoustic sources. Again, how close to "perfect" something sounds is highly subjective and source specific. If rock, alternative, and hip hop are the focus of your listening, your priorities will likely differ from someone whose listening preferences are exclusively acoustic. Keep in mind that even if a perfect transducer exists (in reality, there is no such thing), you also have the issue with variations in how recordings get mixed and monitored.

[patpong]

Perfect speaker? No such thing. Every speaker has a compromise of some kind. In the mid-80s, I spent plenty of time with the Apogee Duettas, and to a lesser extent, the Full Range. .

But if your most favorite music is classical especial the sound of the violin.... :17: :nonod: :7: In that case, you don't care about the bass. It's hard to find something other to beat the Apogee...




Totally agree that hip hop is a nono with Apogee.

[Florian]

I think Wooch. needs a beating with a Fullrange run by SIX Krell KRS200's and over 200A of current. Or maybe by GD's Fullrange driven by MF KiloWatt Monoblocks, Tube Research GT4000 with Jadis JA200's? Or maybe my DIVA driven digitally active with 115db plus and 18Hz extension? Mmm, or maybe Henk going in with 3 Kilowatts of power....oh wait or my Jamaican buddy who runs Crown Macro Ref.1 into the bass ribbons alone per side. Watch them beat you around your head and vibrate the air in a huge room.

Wooch....its all about power and control with the right room. Commercial receivers or amps in normal rooms and showrooms do nothing asbolutly nothing with Apogees. Come on over and Ill show you the end of the realm.!

PS: I'll give you a chance to recomment, in what realms do you see the Pop performace. Maybe along the lines of a Paradigm Ref....to give me a laugh...or maybe to the IRS-V like the three other prof. reviewers?

I agree there is no perfect speaker, but the Apogees get so damn close its scary.

[Florian]

Totally agree that hip hop is a nono with Apogee.

I disagree with this one ;-)

Join the Apogee forum too and they can help you out with all the dynamics and bass you need, if you want. There are so many improvements and the acoustical guidence of the room opens new doors.

Cheers my friend

-Florian

PS: But truth be told, Apogees are neutral and will show all the junk in the recording others hide and Hip Hop and other junk (in my opinion) can sound like complete **** on Apogees. So i guess if you listen to only Hip Hop and bad recorded commercial music then Apogees are a nono

[GMichael]

I disagree with this one ;-)

Join the Apogee forum too and they can help you out with all the dynamics and bass you need, if you want. There are so many improvements and the acoustical guidence of the room opens new doors.

Cheers my friend

-Florian

PS: But truth be told, Apogees are neutral and will show all the junk in the recording others hide and Hip Hop and other junk (in my opinion) can sound like complete **** on Apogees. So i guess if you listen to only Hip Hop and bad recorded commercial music then Apogees are a nono

I think he means that the playing of hip hop though an Apogee may cause it to buckle up and spew fluids all over the floor.

[E-Stat]

While I liked them with acoustic music, they just didn't do it for me with amplified instruments and hip hop. Other flagship speakers such as the Infinity IRS, Klipsch K-horn, Dynaudio Evidence Master, or the Dunlavy SC-IV handle those sources better IMO, while still retaining a high degree of musicality with acoustic sources.
To what do you attribute your preference to the second group with amplified music ?

rw

[Woochifer]

To what do you attribute your preference to the second group with amplified music ?

Just my personal preference for more forwardness and aggression in the presentation with rock and hip hop. (Perhaps an artifact of how those recordings are recorded and mixed, but still an everyday reality) For example, the K-horns have audible imbalances, but IMO there's no denying the visceral quality that they bring to that music, and it's not like they're slouches with acoustic instruments either. The Evidence balanced out between the often conflicting attributes with acoustic and amplified sources about as well as any speaker I've heard.


Wooch....its all about power and control with the right room. Commercial receivers or amps in normal rooms and showrooms do nothing asbolutly nothing with Apogees. Come on over and Ill show you the end of the realm.!

And if I obtained more satisfying musical experiences with other systems setup in a "normal" room while using a "commercial" amp, then where does that leave the Apogees, if they sound less than ideal anywhere else other than at Florian's parents' non-normal room using exotic amplification?


PS: I'll give you a chance to recomment, in what realms do you see the Pop performace. Maybe along the lines of a Paradigm Ref....to give me a laugh...or maybe to the IRS-V like the three other prof. reviewers?

Again, where do I ever compare these speakers to the Paradigm Ref? Different price points, different lifestyle requirements, different system goals, different availability (i.e. Paradigm's still making speakers, while Apogee went out of production in 1996). I heard the Apogee Full Range and the IRS on the same day, and the IRS simply delivered a far more satisfying rendering of the music that I listen to, while not giving up anything with orchestral pieces and acoustic music.

[E-Stat]

Just my personal preference for more forwardness and aggression in the presentation with rock and hip hop...

I heard the Apogee Full Range and the IRS on the same day, and the IRS simply delivered a far more satisfying rendering of the music that I listen to, while not giving up anything with orchestral pieces and acoustic music.
Interesting.

While I've never heard the Apogees, I heard HP's IRS system several times between 1980 and 1983 before he moved on to Arne's Genesis flavor. Driven by the CJ Premier One, they certainly had authority and a huge, yet precise image. Ultimately, I found the rather significant discontinuity between the fast EMIMs and the woofer towers distracting. You'd hear the midrange/treble and THE bass. Decidedly different pebbles in the pond. It is for that reason I'm not a big fan of hybrid electrostats. I find the current Nola Grand References superior in their sense of continuity. The progression between the various drivers is less dramatic.

As you indicated, it is probably linked to the type of music one favors. While I still enjoy some jazz/pop, my preferences lean towards acoustic music. Even purely electronic music like Jean Michel-Jarre sounds closer to my notion of what live would be with planars (since it never really exists). I'm certainly not referring to the PA interpretation. Different strokes for different folks!

rw

[Florian]

Interesting that you always bring up my parents basement. Next thing youll be blaming us for having a big house and two cars :lol:

Its ok Wooch, i dont blame you for not liking them. I will stick with my panels and you can stick with your dynamic cone and dome speakers. Enjoy! Too bad you dont understand how these work and confuse electrostatics, ribbons, planar magnetic and hybrids. And dont know what it takes to make them sing, but my offer still stands. You can listen to my friends systems all over europe which are correctly setup and you can see people with real dedication to this hobby.

[Woochifer]

Interesting.

While I've never heard the Apogees, I heard HP's IRS system several times between 1980 and 1983 before he moved on to Arne's Genesis flavor. Driven by the CJ Premier One, they certainly had authority and a huge, yet precise image. Ultimately, I found the rather significant discontinuity between the fast EMIMs and the woofer towers distracting. You'd hear the midrange/treble and THE bass. Decidedly different pebbles in the pond. It is for that reason I'm not a big fan of hybrid electrostats. I find the current Nola Grand References superior in their sense of continuity. The progression between the various drivers is less dramatic.

More recently, I got a listening with a set of the Innersound Eros' and those probably did about as good a job as I've heard in integrating a stat panel with a conventional subwoofer. Part of it might have to do with the integrated amp/crossover unit used to drive the sub, and having the crossover point/slope calibrated to the room acoustics. Unfortunately, those Innersounds had other issues that I picked up in the upper midrange, but aside from that they made for a very impressive listening and addressed a lot of the issues that speakers I've heard from Martin Logan and Acoustat had with amplified instruments. The hybrid Martin Logans I've heard over the years never quite got the subwoofer integration right. Going back several years, Carver's Amazing ribbon/hybrid speaker did a commendable job at integrating the subwoofer with the ribbon panel, and I remember preferring those speakers to the Apogee Duettas.

The Infinity IRS definitely had a sense of scale about it, but also a surprising amount of grace with individual instruments. I could only imagine though how much of a headache that thing must have been to setup!


As you indicated, it is probably linked to the type of music one favors. While I still enjoy some jazz/pop, my preferences lean towards acoustic music. Even purely electronic music like Jean Michel-Jarre sounds closer to my notion of what live would be with planars (since it never really exists). I'm certainly not referring to the PA interpretation. Different strokes for different folks!

A lot of it also has to do with how the music is recorded with certain genres. In addition to there being no such thing as a perfect speaker, there's also no such thing as a perfect recording. In the 70s, when so many classic rock albums were recorded, mixed, and monitored on JBLs, those vintage JBLs often provided an optimum playback chain for those recordings. With the so-called "British sound" speakers, a lot of the music I listened to just sounded horrible when played back through the B&Ws and KEFs of that era. Unfortunately, the JBLs would also butcher other recordings that were not optimized around the "west coast" sound. Because I was unhappy with either of these extremes, I gravitated more towards the New England speakers, like the Advents and ARs and later on with upstart companies like Polk and Boston Acoustics, which tended to provide better balance between a multitude of different sources.

[Woochifer]

Interesting that you always bring up my parents basement. Next thing youll be blaming us for having a big house and two cars :lol:

Well, you're the one who's talking about how Apogees won't sound at their best in a "normal room" and presumably you got your Apogees to sound optimal in your room, so that makes it a non-normal room, right? Plus, they are at your parents' house, are they not? Nothing more than statements of fact, so what's there to blame?


Its ok Wooch, i dont blame you for not liking them. I will stick with my panels and you can stick with your dynamic cone and dome speakers. Enjoy! Too bad you dont understand how these work and confuse electrostatics, ribbons, planar magnetic and hybrids. And dont know what it takes to make them sing, but my offer still stands. You can listen to my friends systems all over europe which are correctly setup and you can see people with real dedication to this hobby.

Doesn't take an understanding of how Apogees, Magneplanars, Acoustats, Quads, Carvers, Martin Logans, or Innersounds work to listen to them, just as it doesn't take an understanding of how an internal combustion engine works to know how to drive a car. I only misspoke about your so-called "electreostatic" speakers once, and clarified that point. And remember that your calling me out on that point only highlighted the fact that you falsely attributed a statement to me that I never made. If you're trying to assert that I'm incapable of differentiating between electrostatics, ribbons, planar magnetic, and hybrid speakers, then why don't you cite another instance where I "confuse" them? Otherwise, we'll just chalk up yet another false accusation to your growing gallery.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=16875&page=2

[E-Stat]

In the 70s, when so many classic rock albums were recorded, mixed, and monitored on JBLs, those vintage JBLs often provided an optimum playback chain for those recordings.
Well, er maybe fun but I never considered the upper midrange glare of the L-100s to be optimum with anything. The midbass peak was OK on Zeppelin.


Because I was unhappy with either of these extremes, I gravitated more towards the New England speakers, like the Advents and ARs and later on with upstart companies like Polk and Boston Acoustics, which tended to provide better balance between a multitude of different sources.
As did I. Still use a pair of Double New Advents in the vintage garage system.

rw

[Florian]

Well, you're the one who's talking about how Apogees won't sound at their best in a "normal room" and presumably you got your Apogees to sound optimal in your room, so that makes it a non-normal room, right? Plus, they are at your parents' house, are they not? Nothing more than statements of fact, so what's there to blame?

My Apogees are far from sounding optimal in my room. I need a room 3 times larger but even in this bad enviroment they can do everything you claim they cant do, and i believe this is because you have no basic understanding on how they work and have not had enough experience with these systems to make such a statement.

What does the location of my system have to do with anything, you are unable to bring up anything usefull so you insult me "quite cheapely" and bring to my attention that i live in my parents house. Did it ever ocur to you that maybe my parents have more then one house, or maybe more then one car. We dont, but you have absolutly no understaning of where i live and what i do. Just cheap as always.....



Doesn't take an understanding of how Apogees, Magneplanars, Acoustats, Quads, Carvers, Martin Logans, or Innersounds work to listen to them, just as it doesn't take an understanding of how an internal combustion engine works to know how to drive a car.

Intersting that you try to defend yourself by givng me the asigment to look all over the forum to find your errors. It reminds me of a post not long ago where you said your fav. electrostatic speaker is the 1.6.....mmh i dont know Wooch. but your growing mighty thin. Stick to your own area!


I only misspoke about your so-called "electreostatic" speakers once, and clarified that point. And remember that your calling me out on that point only highlighted the fact that you falsely attributed a statement to me that I never made. If you're trying to assert that I'm incapable of differentiating between electrostatics, ribbons, planar magnetic, and hybrid speakers, then why don't you cite another instance where I "confuse" them? Otherwise, we'll just chalk up yet another false accusation to your growing gallery.


Wow, i got this important to you? Well, you see your the only who simple cannot accept the fact that E-Stat, Florian, Bernd, Y-S and many more can apreciate those systems and know that they are not limited like you claim and disagree with you. Like Bernd stated in another thread.....



It's just when an owner of a budget system who is happy with that, thinks it gives him/her now all knowledge of musical reproduction, and advises people that they don't need to spent some money to enjoy great reproduction, that i question the motive.

[Woochifer]

My Apogees are far from sounding optimal in my room. I need a room 3 times larger but even in this bad enviroment they can do everything you claim they cant do, and i believe this is because you have no basic understanding on how they work and have not had enough experience with these systems to make such a statement.

Hmmm, let's see, first you tell people that Apogees cannot sound their best in a "normal" room. Then you invite everybody over to your parents' house to hear how wonderful your speakers sound. Then you go on to talk about how Apogees are "so damn close" to perfect that "its scary." Now, you're telling us that your Apogees are "far from sounding optimal" in your room. Inviting people halfway around the world so that they can hear "far from sounding optimal" speakers that are otherwise "so damn close (to perfect) its scary," and you claim that I'm "confused"?

And exactly what do you think I claiming that the Apogees I've heard can't do? I've only stated that with certain types of music, they just don't do it for me compared to other speakers. And that is based on first hand listening. You don't even like hip hop, so how would you know about what kind of playback would deliver more satisfying listening for somebody that DOES listen to that type of music?


What does the location of my system have to do with anything, you are unable to bring up anything usefull so you insult me "quite cheapely" and bring to my attention that i live in my parents house. Did it ever ocur to you that maybe my parents have more then one house, or maybe more then one car. We dont, but you have absolutly no understaning of where i live and what i do. Just cheap as always.....

Boy, getting defensive about statements of fact, aren't we? If you get so testy by my merely stating something factual, it's no wonder why you so often need to distort, exaggerate and lie when responding to things that other people say.


Intersting that you try to defend yourself by givng me the asigment to look all over the forum to find your errors. It reminds me of a post not long ago where you said your fav. electrostatic speaker is the 1.6.....mmh i dont know Wooch. but your growing mighty thin. Stick to your own area!

And speaking of exaggerations and lies, in classic Florianspeak, you post yet another untruth to make a point. Please link to where I have ever said that my favorite electrostatic speaker is the 1.6, otherwise kindly retract your statement. The area that I stick to is fact and experiential reality. I guess your "area" is somewhere else, based on the repeatedly nonsensical statements that you've attributed to people on this board. False statements that you repeatedly fail to take responsibility for or correct when pointed out by the people that you attack and lie about.


Wow, i got this important to you? Well, you see your the only who simple cannot accept the fact that E-Stat, Florian, Bernd, Y-S and many more can apreciate those systems and know that they are not limited like you claim and disagree with you. Like Bernd stated in another thread.....

Boy, you're on a roll today, the distortion's high enough to make any metal guitarist proud! Where do you get the idea that I "cannot accept the fact" that those aforementioned posters can appreciate those systems? I have opinions based on listenings I've done over the years, and somehow that equates to my having some kind of bias against certain people on this board based on the type of system that they own? Boy oh boy Flo, you'd better respond to those messages that the pot and the kettle have been leaving for you! It would seem that the only person on this board that judges people based on the systems that they own is the one typing the reponse to this post.

[Florian]

You bore me!

Come back when you are ready to try!