Now I hear that El Presidente Fox...

[bturk667]

doesn't think Jorge W. Bush did enough. What the hell does he want us to do? Take all his people or just most.

Remeber we are talking about ten million who will recieve amnesty. This does not include their families, which they can send for, so this number could go as high as 20 to 25 million. How many would be enough for El Presidente Fox? Can you say El A$$hole!!!

VIVA LA JORGE W. BUSH
VIVA LA EL PRESIDENTE FOX

You can both kiss my BIG AMERICAN A$$!!!

The sooner we close the boarder the BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The sooner Jorge is sent packing the BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris]

This is funny.... surely you don't think there isn't more to it than just Fox dumping his poor population on us. This is Mexico's first elected leader in over 7 decades (put in power by the people), who is taking over a country which has been governed by one corrupt politcal party for the previous 70 years. He's obviously got a ton of political pressure to help improve the economy and living conditions throughout the country, and he must show drastic improvements in a short window of time. A big part of his plan is to have the US soften its borders to help "share the wealth". He figures that if more low-wage workers are allowed to come here to work and send money back home, it will do two things: one, it will help reduce the extreme poverty levels and raise the average income level. And two, it will begin to bridge the gap between the living conditions in the US and in Mexico a little bit. Both of which the people of Mexico demand to see happen. Can you blame him for those assumptions?

The problem is, he needs to show a great amount of progress in a short period of time. He's up for reelection in 3 more years, which doesn't give him very much time or many options. The obvious way to improve things quickly would be to do what he is doing now - piggyback off of a neighboring wealthy nation. How else would you suggest he do it? There is a lot to clean up in Mexico, and he's got an almost impossible task - especially now that an increasing number of the low-wage jobs are now being sent to China instead of Mexico. You see, many will argue that Mexico needs to improve labor conditions to help their economy. Well, that's great and all, except for the fact that American companies will stop sending manufacturing plants there when it becomes more expensive. They'll begin sending those jobs to the next cheap alternative, which is now China. So now what to do?

If you're going to criticize Fox, first learn more about the challenges he's faced with and try putting yourself in his shoes to suggest what he should do differently. If you have done any research on him, you'd see that he's the one who has been working to change the perception among most Mexicans who have been led to believe from the last regime that the US is to blame for much of the poverty in Mexico. He's trying to get them to do for themselves, but he needs some help. Now that he's trying to get help from the US, we see some attitudes changing. Many Americans, though they'd like to see the economy in Mexico improve, are not willing to commit to any policies that may have any chance of compromising our own way of life - not even a little. People can be so caring one minute and yet so selfish the next - it's amazing.

I can't say I'm for opening our borders as Fox would like to see, but I can't say that people who want them closed have the right to make that decision either. We need to continue to offer the opportunity for a better life to people of other nations as we always have, and continue to help them improve the living conditions for their people. Like it or not, that's a responsibility we have, being the richest nation in the world. I think the people who want to lock our borders and separate ourselves further from the rest of the world are a little bit selfish and don't really understand what America was built on. It's like the rich people who live in a rich neighborhood - they feel as long as their street looks good, who gives a damn about the rest of the city. I hear a good friend of mine use this line sometimes - "as long as I can't see it from my house" - yeah, that pretty much sums up this whole discussion.

[JSE]

Chris,

You said,

"I can't say I'm for opening our borders as Fox would like to see, but I can't say that people who want them closed have the right to make that decision either. We need to continue to offer the opportunity for a better life to people of other nations as we always have, and continue to help them improve the living conditions for their people. Like it or not, that's a responsibility we have, being the richest nation in the world. I think the people who want to lock our borders and separate ourselves further from the rest of the world are a little bit selfish and don't really understand what America was built on. It's like the rich people who live in a rich neighborhood - they feel as long as their street looks good, who gives a damn about the rest of the city. I hear a good friend of mine use this line sometimes - "as long as I can't see it from my house" - yeah, that pretty much sums up this whole discussion."

You're absolutely correct BUT, people from other countries need to come here legally, period! Why is that soooo hard for everyone to understand and accept? It's the freakin law! I have always said we need to build a huge fence. However, myself and most people who want to close our borders never said we would not let anyone through. That would be crazy. I like your neighborhood analogy. Let's look at it this way. You can own a house anywhere you like in any neighborhood and you still have a door with a lock. You don't just have a open doorway for anyone and everyone to come in and use your shower, toilet, audio system, fridge, microwave, car, etc. Do you? No, you open the door and let in those you deem appropriate to enter. So, to say someone like me is being selfish is not even close to the truth.

Have a good one! :D

JSE

[Chris]

Hey, come on now JSE, I never said anything about allowing people in illegally. We've been over that, and I do agree there. Some people are upset about Bush wanting to allow people that are already here to continue to work and live here legally - it really pisses some people off that they won't be able to call them criminals anymore. Well, really, there is no other logical decision that can be made - especially by a political leader who doesn't want to enrage a growing latin population who could be voting for him/against him. This discussion has less to do with illegals, and more to do with how Fox is working to improve his own economy. What I was saying is that Fox is doing what everyone wants him to do, including us. He's doing what he can to improve the economy in Mexico. But he will need our help to do so - and some people, though they would like to see Mexico improve and stop having the poor Mexican population coming in illegally to find low paying jobs, seem to stop caring when it comes time to lend a hand.

We both agree on the legal issue. If you are open to allowing people through legally, then we're debating needlessly. The question would be whether or not you'd continue to support the law if it was changed in a way that would allow people in easier as Bush may propose? Do you support the current immigration laws because they tend to keep more people out, or would it matter if it was in fact less strict, as long as more people followed it?

It's the people who don't want to let anyone else in at all, who I think are selfish. And to an extent, who we "deem appropriate" and why comes into question as well. In this case, it was those people I was referring to, not you or others who expressed a similar opinion.

[Chris]

man this is fun stuff!

[bturk667]

I should care more about Mr. Fox, his chances for reelection, the plight of HIS citizens, and their well being more than I do the plight and well being of our Citizens? Yeah, I don't think so. Let us get OUR house in order, and then, and only then, should we worry about Mexico! If this makes me wrong, well then, I don't want to be right!!!

[dennis]

close the borders and SEND BUSH TO MARS!!!!!

[Chris]

I don't think you should care more for other citizens by any means, but before you pass judgement on Fox, try and understand why he's pushing for the things he is. I believe that we should want Fox to succeed, as this is Mexico's first real democracy. If he can't show an improvement over the previous governing body, then why would people continue to support it instead of just going back to something like they had before?

I just think we need to be attentive to what's going on in our neighboring country and be receptive to what their needs are - especially if we claim we care (as I hear people say, but then retract often). Obviously what happens here within our borders is first priority. I don't agree that our citizens are going to suffer by softened borders as much as some believe, and I also don't agree that Fox is trying to just pawn off his poor population on us as you're suggesting. There is more to it than that. To think of it in such simple terms without learning more about the reasoning and context just seems a little irresponsible.

[bturk667]

about Fox and his future. I don't see much of a difference between his regime and the old ones. The number of his people fleeing across the boarder has not seemed to have deminished during his presidency. As the saying goes, " The more things change the more they stay the same."! We have to fix things here first, and then let us worry about Mexico; for Fox and the rest of his cronies surely will not worry about our problems! It seems that he wants us to fix HIS problems, while simultaneously fixing ours. Sorry, our citizens have to come first, not his or his reelection problems. Hey, maybe he could back to working for Coca Cola?

[Chris]

about Fox and his future. I don't see much of a difference between his regime and the old ones. The number of his people fleeing across the boarder has not seemed to have deminished during his presidency. As the saying goes, " The more things change the more they stay the same."! We have to fix things here first, and then let us worry about Mexico; for Fox and the rest of his cronies surely will not worry about our problems! It seems that he wants us to fix HIS problems, while simultaneously fixing ours. Sorry, our citizens have to come first, not his or his reelection problems. Hey, maybe he could back to working for Coca Cola?
I give up - some people just refuse to entertain the point you try to get across... obviously you're just in the mood to vent and not consider any perspective other than your own. If you would have read anything I had to say at all, you would have understood that I agree with your view that "our citizens have to come first"... However, there is more to consider in this subject. Some Americans' interest, compassion, and respect tends to only reach within our borders and not beyond - I guess that's something that can't be changed, at least not in a discussion board.

Carry on.

[bturk667]

Sorry Chris, But I am not willing to understand anything when it comes to rewarding the action of illegal aliens. I do have compassion for others, and I do believe that we as a nation should help when ever we can. Again however, I do not, and will not, ever see helping others over our own.

I found it interesting how the President, in his State of the Union address, mentioned giving jobs to illegals that we Americans did not want. How does that work? Does the President go around asking Americans who are unempolyed, like myself, Hey, Mr. and Mrs. so and so, do you want this job? Because if you don't I will gladly give it to an illegal instead. He, nor anyone from his staff has ever done so. Do you think I should keep my hope up? I think not!

[Widowmaker]

I myself am an immigrant and I vigorously oppose illegal immigration and feel that giving illegals legal status sends the wrong message and might just encourage others to do the same.

On the other hand, I've noticed a general lack of compassion among my fellow Republicans when it comes to the downtrodden and "marginals" of society. Most of the illegals in this country are law-abiding, pay taxes, and take jobs that most Americans wouldn't dream of taking (bturk, you can't honestly tell me that you would want a job cleaning public bathrooms or working in a cafeteria).

Recently, I read an article from the Boston Globe in which a Mexican guy is rounded up in the post 9-11 crackdown for not being in legal status. He's been here for eleven years, paid his taxes, has a wife and four children, works as a janitorial supervisor at the local university, is a Sunday school teacher at his church, and has never committed a crime. Anyone who tells me that this poor guy doesn't deserve some consideration probably doesn't have a heart. Yes, by the letter of the law, he is in violation and should be deported but sometimes, we should act according to a higher calling or conscience rather than a strict interpretation of the law.

[Chris]

Sorry Chris, But I am not willing to understand anything when it comes to rewarding the action of illegal aliens. I do have compassion for others, and I do believe that we as a nation should help when ever we can. Again however, I do not, and will not, ever see helping others over our own.

I found it interesting how the President, in his State of the Union address, mentioned giving jobs to illegals that we Americans did not want. How does that work? Does the President go around asking Americans who are unempolyed, like myself, Hey, Mr. and Mrs. so and so, do you want this job? Because if you don't I will gladly give it to an illegal instead. He, nor anyone from his staff has ever done so. Do you think I should keep my hope up? I think not!
I know this is far fetched, but could it be that the economy just sucks? http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif or is all the unemployment the fault of those dirty "illegals" too? It sounds like your frustration is aimed at one piece of the puzzle, instead of the design.

Carry on....

[Chris]

I myself am an immigrant and I vigorously oppose illegal immigration and feel that giving illegals legal status sends the wrong message and might just encourage others to do the same.

On the other hand, I've noticed a general lack of compassion among my fellow Republicans when it comes to the downtrodden and "marginals" of society. Most of the illegals in this country are law-abiding, pay taxes, and take jobs that most Americans wouldn't dream of taking (bturk, you can't honestly tell me that you would want a job cleaning public bathrooms or working in a cafeteria).

Recently, I read an article from the Boston Globe in which a Mexican guy is rounded up in the post 9-11 crackdown for not being in legal status. He's been here for eleven years, paid his taxes, has a wife and four children, works as a janitorial supervisor at the local university, is a Sunday school teacher at his church, and has never committed a crime. Anyone who tells me that this poor guy doesn't deserve some consideration probably doesn't have a heart. Yes, by the letter of the law, he is in violation and should be deported but sometimes, we should act according to a higher calling or conscience rather than a strict interpretation of the law.
Thank you Widowmaker - you've expressed both sides of my view to the T. The only thing I might question is what should be done with all people who are not legally here? If not grant them legal status, what? Your example perfectly explains why just rounding everyone up is not the right thing to do.

[bturk667]

If the Mexican man that the Boston Globe reported on would have been here legally, would he have had a problem? No, that is my point. Why did he not have a green card, and/or become a legal citizen? There is a price to pay for freedom isn't there? Is it to much to ask of people, like the Mexican man, to become a legal imagrant, and/or citizen? I think not!!! Sometimes the ends do not justify the means, but sometimes they do.

[bturk667]

I never said the unemployment problem is the fault of the illegal imagrants. But logic, I believe, would dicate that if the citizens and legal imagrants of this country have to compete with a growing number of illegal imagrants pouring into the country, well them, it just makes it that much harder to find a job. Especially when the unemployment rate is so high! Also, I never used the term "dirty" when writing about imagrants, you did. If this is your belief, then should make it clear, because it is not mine!

Carry on...

[karl k]

Hey, come on now JSE, I never said anything about allowing people in illegally. We've been over that, and I do agree there. Some people are upset about Bush wanting to allow people that are already here to continue to work and live here legally - it really pisses some people off that they won't be able to call them criminals anymore. Well, really, there is no other logical decision that can be made - especially by a political leader who doesn't want to enrage a growing latin population who could be voting for him/against him. This discussion has less to do with illegals, and more to do with how Fox is working to improve his own economy. What I was saying is that Fox is doing what everyone wants him to do, including us. He's doing what he can to improve the economy in Mexico. But he will need our help to do so - and some people, though they would like to see Mexico improve and stop having the poor Mexican population coming in illegally to find low paying jobs, seem to stop caring when it comes time to lend a hand.

We both agree on the legal issue. If you are open to allowing people through legally, then we're debating needlessly. The question would be whether or not you'd continue to support the law if it was changed in a way that would allow people in easier as Bush may propose? Do you support the current immigration laws because they tend to keep more people out, or would it matter if it was in fact less strict, as long as more people followed it?

It's the people who don't want to let anyone else in at all, who I think are selfish. And to an extent, who we "deem appropriate" and why comes into question as well. In this case, it was those people I was referring to, not you or others who expressed a similar opinion.
But I think I can connect with Bturk a little. Your assuming some things that may not hold true when it's all said and done. Granted, the idea of helping Fox is a noble one and may have potential benefit for both our countries, but the fact remains that we don't have the structure, the desire, or the funds to deport these people at the end of their work stay. Hail, we can't keep up with the illegals we have now! You've got to admit... most of those who seek to enter the country illegally intend to stay, not for awhile, but permanently. I maintain that allowing a work program won't change the motivation of those people at all and instead will just make the problem that much worse. Simply asking people to sign up for the program doesn't mean that we as a country are willing or able to track the status of the participants. If you doubt this, just look at the track record for foreigners who sign up for college and how well we keep track of them if they drop out. The numbers we are talking about here are way more for the work programs. I just don't see it happening the way it's being described.

Now, if durring their work stay, they decide to start a family or add to it, then what? Others have brought this up in the past and here's my answer to that... Change the laws so the only way you can be born an American is by parents with citizenship. I think most Americans would back such a proposal as making a good deal of sense and you would close one loophole for illegals. You are right in the aspect that we are talking about easing the immigration into this country instead of a simple work program. If that's what we want, then fine... do it that way. Allow more immigration in, and force them to become citizens. They will have all the benefits they seek and we won't have to worry about the cost or ethics of deportation.

As far as Fox just dumping the poor on our doorstep, it may not be a goal but instead a symptom which still benefits him politically. Those who seek to leave Mexico probably won't see the benefits of Fox's actions in Mexico in 3yrs anyway and probably wouldn't vote for him a new term in office. So by getting America to ease it's boarders, he really gains two fold...

Get rid of those he can't help and would vote against him anyway

Be seen as making significant steps to increased oppurtunity for those who do stay by reducing the competition for the jobs that are available.

I don't understand what has happened to the immigration policy in this country and the requirement for obtaining citizenship. It use to be you had to learn about the history and culture. You had to at least speak some english and prove to be a contributing member of society(Uhh huh huh he said member). You had to become an American and accept a change in life as well as a change in location. If you weren't OK with this, you don't get in! I always thought and still do think it is a good policy. Now, it seems that the policy doesn't hold completely true. Now, American children are forced to take spanish classes, not for the cultural benefits but for raw communication necessities. Some jobs you can't even get without being able to speak spanish, not because of international business but because so many in this country can't speak enough engish to make any sense! What's up with that?!! I see cars driving down the street with decals of Mexican flags on them... where's the American flag? I thought they were Americans now? There's nothing wrong about remembering where you came from... but what about where you're going? Isn't that what was so important when they came here?

If you want to allow work programs for foreigners, here's how I'd handle it... Apply for an American sponser and have them take the responsibility for the actions of the visitor. The two would work together and drive together. If a family applies, it better be a business where the whole family can work at. ID cards only, no drivers licences and a way to electronically track the where abouts(as we do with house arrest). Set a max time before requiring citizenship and no min time before deportation. At the same time, erect a wall on the boarder to prevent illegals. Hail, have the government sponser the workers and have them build the wall! The wall would pay for itself in 10-20yrs or less through less boarder patrols and the boarder will be that much more secure from terrorists.

I know this must sound cold and heartless, but it is practical and I would expect no less if I were in their shoes. If after I get here I wanted to stay, I take the steps required to do so... legally. It's only fair IMHO.

[JSE]

Facts:

1) We have a illegal immigrant problem.

2) We have alot of illegal immigrants here now.

3) Illegal immigrants will always want to come to the US as long as conditions in Mexico don't improve. This is the source of the problem.

4) The only way to insure no more illegal immigration? Build a Fence/Wall and heavily guard it.

5) We have to deal with illegals that are here now.

These are just a few facts about this topic. And I don't think many will disagree with them. I can see both Chris and Bturk's views, but I think Chris has a little more realistic view. Bturk, you are very passionate about this but the fact remains we have to deal with the illegals that are here. No way around that. Unfortunately, we will have to "reward" them with some form of citizenship at some point. I can't see any other alternative. Can you? Do I agree with it? No, but we don't really have a choice short of rounding them up, which I think most agree is crazy. Like it or not, the illegals that are here now are "our own". We need to recognize this and move on. I don't like it, but we have to do it. We need to "get them on the books". You're right, our citizens should come first, but that does not mean we should ignore the root problem in Mexico either. This problem will always exist as long as Mexico's economy and living conditions remain the same. You don't see many Canadians sneaking across do you? Although, I would not blame them, Doh! :eek:

The solution in general? Build a fence to stop further illegal immigration and start dealing with the illegals that are here. Seems simple in theory, huh? Now carrying it out is a whole other story. If they need volunteers to man the fence/wall, I would donate some time each year to help guard it. I'm in Texas, and I would do it with pleasure. Give me some basic training and I would give some of my time. I think it's that important.

I think most people would find that they have similiar views on this topic but their views tend to get mixed up and confused by political and emotional influences. Politics and emotion are great and long as they do not blind you from reality.

If none of this makes sense, please forgive me. I am on heavy FLU medications. :p

JSE

[Chris]

Yes, we have an illegal immigration problem - everyone agrees with that. The problem seems to stem from the long time high poverty level in Mexico that has been bringing Mexicans to the US for decades. Many Mexicans come to the US (both legally and illegally) in order to work and send money back home to their families, which has a constant and immediate impact on the Mexican economy (which is what Fox is hoping for - for those who think he's just trying to dump his poor people in our lap). They do this for survival and not out of greed. And yet, I tend to hear a lot of Americans complaining about this out of greed, and not survival. This is what is a bit sickening about the whole thing. Of course this isn't always the case, but from what I've encountered, it's been true in most cases.

So what do we do about the problem? How do we stop people who are desperate to survive? Some seem to think that we need to take a drastic (and somewhat hostile) approach and build a wall to keep the poor people out forcefully. They seem to think that caring about people who are not US citizens automatically means that we are turning our backs on those who are US citizens. They're willing to spend so much money on a symbol of hostility instead of working directly with the neighboring government in a more humanitary way to help fix the problem. This sends a message to the world that we'll do whatever it takes to forcefully keep our poor neighbors from entering our country illegally..... everything except offer them help? Not the type of stance the lone super power should be taking in my opinion. I think we're better than that, and I don't think we can afford to say "it's not our problem". Those who think we have no other choice haven't put much thought into it.

I guess that's just me though - I'm the type of person who would rather help people (citizens of the US or not) than build a wall to keep them out. Everyone has their own values and beliefs though. I'm not quick to jump to the conclusion that our economy has to suffer if we choose to help Mexico. It will obviously require some resources. But if there were some creative thinking and some solid planning and execution, our own economy wouldn't have to sacrifice very much. And in the end, an improved Mexican economy would benefit both nations and greatly ease illegal border crossing.

Now I'm not naive to think that we can help every nation that needs it, but it would seem logical that by helping a neighboring country, we would be helping ourselves in the long run. It just seems like the right thing to do, as opposed to putting up another Berlin Wall - and make no mistake about it, a wall between the US and Mexico would definitely become a symbol of similar significance and controversy, enraging people around the world. Something people who want a wall built haven't put much thought into.

[JSE]

Chris,

"They're willing to spend so much money on a symbol of hostility instead of working directly with the neighboring government in a more humanitary way to help fix the problem. This sends a message to the world that we'll do whatever it takes to forcefully keep our poor neighbors from entering our country illegally..... everything except offer them help?"

First, I don't think a fence or a wall is a symbol of "hostility" and I don't agree that we would be "forcefully" keeping people out. Be carefule with words. There is nothing hostile about a fence or wall. And yes, we need to say to the world, come here legally, period. I also don't agree that by building a fence we would be turning our back on Mexico. I think it would be quite the opposite. It would force both our hands to deal with the real problem, Mexico, while at the same time helping our problem of illegal immigration and the drain it is on our system.

How long do you think it will take to fix Mexico's problems? 20, 30 years? I bet much longer. Do you know how many illegal immigrants could come into this country in that time? Do you know what it could do to our economy? There are signs of this now. Yes, we are a super power. But, for how long? A crumbled economy will ruin us in the end. You're right, the only way to fix the problem is to deal with Mexico's issues. But that will likely ruin us in the process. I for one care about Mexico, but not to my countries demise. Call me selfish, that's fine. But if we ruin our country trying to help another, is it worth it? If our economy crashes, how many other economies will crash. What about those people?

"Those who think we have no other choice haven't put much thought into it."

That's not really true. I for one have thought this through in depth and if we are to stop illegal immigration before our country falls into ruins, then yes a wall or fence or heavily guarded border is the only answer. To think trying to help Mexico and leaving our borders vulnerable like they are now is viable alternative is wishfull thinking. I am all for helping Mexico and I understand Mexico is the real problem, but let's help ourselves in the process. We can help Mexico and protect ourselves in the process.


"It just seems like the right thing to do, as opposed to putting up another Berlin Wall - and make no mistake about it, a wall between the US and Mexico would definitely become a symbol of similar significance and controversy, enraging people around the world. Something people who want a wall built haven't put much thought into."

Another Berlin Wall? I thought the Berlin wall was built to keep people in, not out? Big difference. The Communist wanted to keep themselves sealed off from Democracy and keep it's people within their own country. The Berlin Wall represented Communism. That's why it was such a controversy. I don't think building a fence or something similar along our border would be seen in the same light. I doubt people would be that enraged. If they are, so what? Why are we so concerned with what ther countries think. If we build a fence are these countires going to stop taking our aid and stop relying on us for their own well being? Will they demand we not save their arss when they are invaded? I don't think so. Our country will always be hated by some countries just because we are the big dog. We are not going to change that.

"I'm not quick to jump to the conclusion that our economy has to suffer if we choose to help Mexico."

You're right, but it will if we ignore illegal immigration here and now and just focus on helping Mexico. Again, we can do both. People who think we can't have not put much thought into it. :D


I'll say it again, I will vote for anyone that guarantees closing our borders. No matter what party they are associated with. As much as it pains me to say it, I would vote for Hillary if she could do it. Oh god, I'm feeling sick. :(

JSE

[Chris]

Another Berlin Wall? I thought the Berlin wall was built to keep people in, not out? Big difference. The Communist wanted to keep themselves sealed off from Democracy and keep it's people within their own country. The Berlin Wall represented Communism. That's why it was such a controversy. I don't think building a fence or something similar along our border would be seen in the same light. JSE
I knew I should have went in to more depth when I wrote that - I didn't mean it would represent the same thing that the Berlin wall did, but the symbolism could be just as significant.

I agree JSE, increased border patrol is needed. A wall could help the issue, but as you said, it won't fix the problem - it will just slow the process. I'm not quite sure though how a wall would force the US to address the root of the problem. If anything, it seems like it would make it easier for us to not deal with the issue further. The thinking being - "well illegal immigration is down some, problem solved". Yet, Mexico's problems get worse, leading their poor to take more desperate measures to cross the border. Before you know it, we're taking more drastic measures trying to keep them out, and more humanitarian issues arise.

I guess I just am still not as convinced as you that:

A. illegal immigration is going to be the ruin of our economy and our country.
B. a huge wall is the necessary course of action instead of just an increase in patrol.
C. our helping Mexico's economy in some way will destroy our economy rather than help the illegal immigration issue in the long term.

[JSE]

"I guess I just am still not as convinced as you that:

A. illegal immigration is going to be the ruin of our economy and our country.
B. a huge wall is the necessary course of action instead of just an increase in patrol.
C. our helping Mexico's economy in some way will destroy our economy rather than help the illegal immigration issue in the long term."

Chris,

A. It will unless we first stop illegal immigration and second, deal with the illegal that are here now. They drain us.

B. increase border patrol will work if it is really done right and given the resources needed to man the patrol. However, we are talking thousands and thousands of new officers to create an effective deterent. Heh, that would create jobs? Hmmmm? I think it would probably cost more than a fence/wall scenerio though?

C. I am not saying helping Mexico will destroy our economy instead of helping the immigration issue. I am saying that yes, we need to help Mexico. However, that is a long term solution but we also need a short term fix like a closed border. We need to implement them both. I really don't think one will work without the other. If we close our border, maybe the people of Mexico will turn to their goverment for answers and force the goverment to do something. It may cause a revolution of sorts, but that may be a good thing. In the meantime, we need to take care of us or we won't have the ability to help others in the future.

JSE