What sounds different about ribbon tweeters?

[nightflier]

I have a cousin on the east coast who's selling a pair of Aurum Cantus Leisure 2 speakers. Never heard of these, but they have positive reviews. I also have an opportunity to buy a few other speakers instead, namely:

- A pair of Gershman X-1's - their entry level speaker w/o ribbon tweeters, but I've been wanting these for years.
- A pair of Sonus Concertinos with stands - also entry-level w/o ribbons. I've heard these, like 'em, but everybody and their mother is selling them and I'm wondering if my initial experience won't be the same when I finally get them in house. And considering they cost the same used as the Gershmans, I'm hesitating.

My cousin says that the ribbon tweeters will blow the Gershmans & SFs away. So what's the deal with ribbon tweeters (for those of us who've never heard them)? Should I buy the Gershmans instead or stick with what I know and buy the SFs?

I won't have an opportunity to hear these again before buying, so I'm gambling a bit, here. The Aurums would be about $150 less than the others, too.

[Florian]

Just because it has a ribbon does not make it good. There are many different types of ribbons with different resistances, thicknesses, responce times etc.. but in general they have a much lower mass then any cone or dome tweeter, respond faster and stop faster then any cone or dome driver and lack coloration. They can have a very high powerhandling with no audible distortion on good designs with good magnets. The rest of the speaker has to be matched too. It is very hard to match the speed and lack of character of the ribbon driver with a normal cone or dome.

Personally i will never buy anything again with a cone or dome exept the Kharma 3.2fe and Exquisite, the Avalon Eidolon Diamond or the Thiel CS6.

Cheers

Flo

[dmb_fan]

The biggest differences lie in the directional characteristics of the sound. I love Magnepans and Martin Logans (which are electrostats, not ribbons) and the old Apogees...

...WHEN I'M SITTING DOWN.

As soon as you stand up while listening to any of these speakers with 40" or 60" tweeters, the treble disappears. This is because sound gets more directional according to the ratio between wavelength and driver size. Tall ribbon drivers are extremely directional at high frequencies.

There is nothing objectively "wrong" with this, and in fact it has it's benefits. For example, it limits first-order reflections from the floor and the ceiling. But I prefer a more spacious presentation and I prefer to be able to hear the treble when I'm standing up.

Other manufacturers use short ribbons only a couple of inches long and these do not suffer from such a high degree of directionality.

If you're getting a good deal and can resell at the same price, there's no harm in giving them a try.

-Adam

[Florian]

That is true, unless you buy a 6ft tall ribbon speaker :D
I just talked to my buddy from Red Dragon audio and he liked the speakers too. Great build quality and sound is very good for the money. Give it a shot!

[E-Stat]

So what's the deal with ribbon tweeters (for those of us who've never heard them)?
There is a delicacy to them only matched by electrostats with both the MG 20.1s and the big Nola Exoticas that I've heard.

rw

[RGA]

I have a cousin on the east coast who's selling a pair of Aurum Cantus Leisure 2 speakers. Never heard of these, but they have positive reviews. I also have an opportunity to buy a few other speakers instead, namely:

- A pair of Gershman X-1's - their entry level speaker w/o ribbon tweeters, but I've been wanting these for years.
- A pair of Sonus Concertinos with stands - also entry-level w/o ribbons. I've heard these, like 'em, but everybody and their mother is selling them and I'm wondering if my initial experience won't be the same when I finally get them in house. And considering they cost the same used as the Gershmans, I'm hesitating.

My cousin says that the ribbon tweeters will blow the Gershmans & SFs away. So what's the deal with ribbon tweeters (for those of us who've never heard them)? Should I buy the Gershmans instead or stick with what I know and buy the SFs?

I won't have an opportunity to hear these again before buying, so I'm gambling a bit, here. The Aurums would be about $150 less than the others, too.

Send Corwin 99 an e-mail -- he owns both the Cantus and the Gershman X-1/Sub 1 combo.

He lives in town and maybe late December I will have time to stop by and hear them. The X1 is a darker sounding speaker which is doubtful to offend (though you may get the sense they're leaving a bit out). My experience with Ribbons has not been great so far and so far all have a very similar sonic character despite being in a lot of various designs. I personally don't buy into the treble dynamics and so far all have been fatiguing - I believe though that it is a worthy approach but I guess I need to find one that would not have me shutting off after one disc. The Legacy Whisper was the best I have yet to hear from a Ribbon tweeter and the speaker has a lot going for it. Strangely though the deep bass didn't have the impact that I would want in my home nor did it excel in that upper bass region ~150hz I'd guess, Though I would not say no to them on sound quality their price is way up there. Though I wish the dealer would have kept them because I'd love to try it with a SE amp and maybe another audition. The bass is rated 22hz +/-2db but the result in room didn't seem like it.

maybe you could look on the market for used legacy if they also use ribbons and you like the sound.

[drseid]

Send Corwin 99 an e-mail -- he owns both the Cantus and the Gershman X-1/Sub 1 combo.

He lives in town and maybe late December I will have time to stop by and hear them. The X1 is a darker sounding speaker which is doubtful to offend (though you may get the sense they're leaving a bit out). My experience with Ribbons has not been great so far and so far all have a very similar sonic character despite being in a lot of various designs. I personally don't buy into the treble dynamics and so far all have been fatiguing - I believe though that it is a worthy approach but I guess I need to find one that would not have me shutting off after one disc. The Legacy Whisper was the best I have yet to hear from a Ribbon tweeter and the speaker has a lot going for it. Strangely though the deep bass didn't have the impact that I would want in my home nor did it excel in that upper bass region ~150hz I'd guess, Though I would not say no to them on sound quality their price is way up there. Though I wish the dealer would have kept them because I'd love to try it with a SE amp and maybe another audition. The bass is rated 22hz +/-2db but the result in room didn't seem like it.

maybe you could look on the market for used legacy if they also use ribbons and you like the sound.

With respect to the Whispers, that 22 hz rating I would say is highly optimistic. Legacy actually recommends you use a subwoofer (or two) with them as low bass is not their strength. The Legacy Focus that costs half of the Whisper's price has *much* better bass.

To the original poster:

As for ribbon tweeters in general, as Florian said there are good and bad examples, just like anything else... I have enjoyed them in some of Legacy Audio's designs, and in Salk Sound's models among others... and did not care for them in a few others (I'll leave those manufacturer's designs nameless).

In my case, I think the X-1 would be my choice out of the speakers you mentioned -- very nice all-around speaker, IMO and RGA's description matches my own (I tend to prefer a sligtly rolled-off top end)... I did not particularly care for the Leisure speaker from AC. It was not really lacking in any particular area except low bass as expected, but nothing about the speaker really wowed me either. In the case of the SF speaker, I like pretty much everything in their line *except* that one (assuming it is the Concertino mini-monitor)... I confess my time was limited with the speaker, but it sounded flat to me in the 30 minutes or so I auditioned it about a year back. I also heard the SF Grand Piano Home floorstanders that same day, and loved those... go figure.

Just one person's opinion...

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Flo is right when he says ribbons have fast transient response, but he grossly over-exaggerates when he says they are faster than all cone or dome speakers. In theory that might have once been true.

Dynamic drivers have been increasing transient response in recent years and many have been as fast or faster for quite some time now. But you have to pay for this. At lower price points, dynamic speakers I've heard and observed tend not to keep up. The added mass is a disadvantage, but the mass itself isn't important, the ratio of mass to force control is what matters, in this case larger magnets etc...superior design. After panel speakers came out and kicked butt in the "speed" department, designers had to work a bit harder.

But speed is just 1 part of the equation, and sometimes the differences aren't that big at all. Then there's some definite tonalities and dispersion characteristics that are just different between ribbons and dynamic drivers.

I think ribbons offer a great alternative, and we can learn a lot from them though. My only beef with them is that they usually don't sound better enough to me to justify the price compared to competitors. I suspect as more people start buying these unconventional designs though, that will change.

Give them a listen though, there's a good reason why people who buy ribbons once buy them again and again and again.

[Florian]

I have to admit that a box like the DALI MS5 with a ribbon tweeter is to my ears not really all that better then a cone or dome speaker in the same pricerange. The reason i love ribbons so much is when the design is like the Perigee, Apogee and Analysis when the whole speaker is made from the same ribbons in every area. There are many ribbon hybrids i heard where i would have picked a other speaker.

[nightflier]

I think the X-1 would be my choice out of the speakers you mentioned -- very nice all-around speaker, IMO and RGA's description matches my own (I tend to prefer a sligtly rolled-off top end)... I did not particularly care for the Leisure speaker from AC. It was not really lacking in any particular area except low bass as expected, but nothing about the speaker really wowed me either.

Thanks for all the input. It looks like the Gershmans are my best option. I like a warmer sounding speaker anyhow, and it looks like the ribbons will be a bit harsher, especially for classical music.

P.S. Regarding the Sonus Faber Concertino, I was considering the bi-wireable pair, I think these are a bit older than the current crop. I only heard the single wire pair, but I thought these sounded very warm and lush for this price-point. Not everyone here seems in agreement about these speakers, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not confusing these speakers?

[Florian]

Ribbons dont sound sharp or cold. Its all about implementation and electronics. They lack character mostly. If you like classical music then i would seriously give the ribbons a try.

[drseid]

With respect to the Concertino, I did think its sound was a bit on the warm side of neutral, but to me it was not involving. The SF GPHs by contrast were also on the warm side to a certain extent, but unlike the Concertinos they really pulled me into the music whereas the Concertinos had me saying "next..." Of course the only opinion that matters is your own.

---Dave

[RGA]

With respect to the Whispers, that 22 hz rating I would say is highly optimistic. Legacy actually recommends you use a subwoofer (or two) with them as low bass is not their strength. The Legacy Focus that costs half of the Whisper's price has *much* better bass.

To the original poster:

As for ribbon tweeters in general, as Florian said there are good and bad examples, just like anything else... I have enjoyed them in some of Legacy Audio's designs, and in Salk Sound's models among others... and did not care for them in a few others (I'll leave those manufacturer's designs nameless).

In my case, I think the X-1 would be my choice out of the speakers you mentioned -- very nice all-around speaker, IMO and RGA's description matches my own (I tend to prefer a sligtly rolled-off top end)... I did not particularly care for the Leisure speaker from AC. It was not really lacking in any particular area except low bass as expected, but nothing about the speaker really wowed me either. In the case of the SF speaker, I like pretty much everything in their line *except* that one (assuming it is the Concertino mini-monitor)... I confess my time was limited with the speaker, but it sounded flat to me in the 30 minutes or so I auditioned it about a year back. I also heard the SF Grand Piano Home floorstanders that same day, and loved those... go figure.

Just one person's opinion...

---Dave


Actually I don't prefer a rolled off top end -- I'll take a rolled off top end if the alternative is excessively bright or grainy in the treble but that's not what I prefer. Several of us listneing the Magnepan 1.6 liked several things about but it's entire uper mid and treble band would have to be completely reworked for me to consider them and since the bottom end was not very good and you could not play them at a volume level outside a very narrow gain they are not for me. That said at the price they're some of the best I've heard becuase some others have the same problems without the Magneapn's list of qualities like open airy presentation and large stage. If i'm a reviewer I can recommend them but as a buyer no thanks. The bigger model impressed me less because the gains are marginal and competitors have bigger gains IMV. The 3.6 has a true ribbon design and interestingly still gave me the same reservations - Evreyone in the room felt the same way. The Gershman X1 is not bright that's for sure but at the same time I suspect a maggy lover would find the X-1 incredibly dark sounding as if it is missing the expansive and open sound -- and I suppose it would be tough to argue. The X1 is mellower and can be lsitened to more as an all day speaker...but in my sessions over the years I still get the sense that that darkness gives the impression you're missing out on what's on the recording.

[drseid]

Actually I don't prefer a rolled off top end -- I'll take a rolled off top end if the alternative is excessively bright or grainy in the treble but that's not what I prefer. Several of us listneing the Magnepan 1.6 liked several things about but it's entire uper mid and treble band would have to be completely reworked for me to consider them and since the bottom end was not very good and you could not play them at a volume level outside a very narrow gain they are not for me. That said at the price they're some of the best I've heard becuase some others have the same problems without the Magneapn's list of qualities like open airy presentation and large stage. If i'm a reviewer I can recommend them but as a buyer no thanks. The bigger model impressed me less because the gains are marginal and competitors have bigger gains IMV. The 3.6 has a true ribbon design and interestingly still gave me the same reservations - Evreyone in the room felt the same way. The Gershman X1 is not bright that's for sure but at the same time I suspect a maggy lover would find the X-1 incredibly dark sounding as if it is missing the expansive and open sound -- and I suppose it would be tough to argue. The X1 is mellower and can be lsitened to more as an all day speaker...but in my sessions over the years I still get the sense that that darkness gives the impression you're missing out on what's on the recording.
Oh I would agree that a Magnapan lover would indeed find the X-1 incredibly dark in comparison... In my case, that would not be a bad thing, as their sound is not to my personal liking, even though I can easily appreciate and respect the qualities others find in them. I think you can have a darker sounding speaker that still is capable of giving you detail... I think the X-1s offer plenty of detail... not the best out there, but good enough.

---Dave

[Florian]

There are plenty of speakers, incl the ones that some people on this site love to death that are indeed bright sounding. They dont play more detaild but simply sound HIFI-ish and creat that extra false sparkle at the top. The Apogee supertweeter ribbon when driven actively starts at 1khz and plays almost flat to 35khz and they dont sound sharp. They sound a little dark, but you dont miss any of the detail. In my opinion i much prefer a darker speaker with real detail then a bright sounding speaker that fakes it. Just my opinion tough.

[nightflier]

I think the X-1s offer plenty of detail... not the best out there, but good enough.

Dave, what other speakers would you put in this category & price range?

[drseid]

Dave, what other speakers would you put in this category & price range?
I think the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitors are my choice in the price range (no bias of course, as I am an owner... ;-)). A bit recessed in the upper mids, but super-fast, tremendous soundstage width and height, and great musicality with plenty of real detail.

Others in the general price range that I personally liked are the Salk Sound Veracity HT-1s (great overall speaker that is not too bright, but has plenty of detail), the Ellis Audio 1801Bs (similar to the Tylers and Salks, but brighter sounding up top (although not overly so) -- and I could even see the ACI Sapphire XLs (very warm speaker, but a bit less detail than the other contenders) and Consonance Eric-1s (great value pick at 1K/pr., but a tad bright on top) as potential dark horse choices in the X-1s realm.

---Dave

[nightflier]

I think the Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitors are my choice in the price range (no bias of course, as I am an owner... ;-)). A bit recessed in the upper mids, but super-fast, tremendous soundstage width and height, and great musicality with plenty of real detail.

Others in the general price range that I personally liked are the Salk Sound Veracity HT-1s (great overall speaker that is not too bright, but has plenty of detail), the Ellis Audio 1801Bs (similar to the Tylers and Salks, but brighter sounding up top (although not overly so) -- and I could even see the ACI Sapphire XLs (very warm speaker, but a bit less detail than the other contenders) and Consonance Eric-1s (great value pick at 1K/pr., but a tad bright on top) as potential dark horse choices in the X-1s realm.

---Dave

Thanks. This should broaden my options.