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Ez34K
11-28-2005, 12:16 AM
I mainly listen to rock music... loudly.

I have tried various speakers in the $300 range from Aperion, Infinity, Polk, Bang and Ulufsen, B&O, KEF, etc etc and have yet to find anything that sounds good to me. Is it just impossible for a smaller speaker (6-1/2 driver or so) to produce acceptable sound for loud rock music under $300?

It seems as if the trend is to have smaller speakers, I just keep wondering if there is actually something there for me that I'm missing. Every time I try them I feel the answer is no.

I've been using larger vintage speakers with much success. Currently own a pair of Pioneer HPMs that sound amazing and are built like a tank. They are cheap, and outperform anything I've put them against so far.

Now I realize taste differs greatly, but I am not one of those people who think harsh highs and bloated boomy bass is a good thing. I recognize actual sound quality, but I still can't understand the gravitation towards these smaller speakers. I don't expect them to have the greatest of bass extension, but most I've tried give me the feeling I'm listening to computer speakers, if you catch my drift.

Overall they just sound small and dead, where as with my HPMs I feel enveloped by the music. I can place the various instruments and my couch shakes with the low notes. It's more like I'm actual IN the music than watching it play if front of me.

Given that information is there anyone who could suggest a suitable speaker? To be honest I don't care about size, I'm not LOOKING for a smaller speaker, but I just feel there must be some advantage to them I don't see if so many are using them.

I've used a sub to augment the bass but it still doesn't feel the same, more of the house rattling than actually feeling it pound your chest.

drseid
11-28-2005, 01:36 AM
Quite frankly for rock I think you are on the right track... Small speakers are not going to provide you with the driver area necessary to sound good (IMO) on rock tracks with plenty of low bass notes, especially with your high SPL and accuracy demands.

The problem is that in the $300 range, most (if not all) speakers are going to have to make some major tradeoffs in order to get the SPL and frequency response ratings you desire... In order to get significant driver area, that means either large woofers, or a lot of them... For $300 with modern day speakers, you would have to look at some brands and speaker models I can't recommend in good conscience. Vintage may be a good way to go.

As for combining a sub with a smaller speaker for high SPL rock without the boom boom you currently hear, I believe it can be done pretty effectively... The snag is that you need to get a quality sub (and of course also a quality mini-monitor) in order to make that solution work, and they are not inexpensive either. Most likely, you will need a 12 incher for most rooms, and a high quality 12 incher will set you back $450-500 (used) minimum. For about $800-$1000 (used) combined, I think you can get what you desire.

All of this said, good rock sound can still be had for much less than the numbers I refer to above... All it means is that you may have to make more compromises in certain areas... As a general rule, the more you can spend (assuming you buy wisely), the less in the way of compromises you will need to make.

A good combo I can recommend for high SPL rock, would be a pair of older version used Legacy Audio Studios ($500/pr.) with a used SVS 12 inch sub $500 (maybe a bit more). The 1K combo price may seem like a heavy outlay, but for high SPL rock, I think you would be pleasantly surprised. Audiogon is a good place to look for the best values, IMO.

---Dave

Ez34K
11-28-2005, 02:37 AM
Thanks a lot for the reply, it was very informative.

I realize most people here probably spend more on a single set of cables than I want to on my speakers, so I'm not expecting a perfect speaker or anything along those lines.

But my question is this, do most people stick with smaller speakers and a high quality sub because it actually offers better quality sound compared to a similarly priced set of floor standers, or just because they want/need something that takes up little space yet still retain the same sound quality of larger speakers?

I've done reading here and on other various sites about how larger drivers (8"-10") have trouble clearly/accurately reproducing midrange frequencies, so I guess that's one of the trade-offs with a large driver speaker? Basically smaller driver speakers trade off some low end for a better midrange resolution? It seems like I very rarely see 8-10" drivers in the "high end" market. And it has to be high end for a reason, I'd assume. Just to get your opinion on the matter why aren't more speakers produced with larger drivers?

If this is the case what types of sounds are usually muddled by larger drivers? Male vocals?

So I guess it comes down to which characteristics I'm willing to give up and which ones I'm not. Given my limited budged low bass is really quite important, as bringing a sub into the mix would up the price quite a bit (at least one buying)

Perhaps it would be better to stick with vintage gear, as I have been happy so far. I just hate that nagging feeling that I'm possibly missing something with the speakers using multiple smaller drivers or subs.

Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate your feedback!

Florian
11-28-2005, 03:28 AM
My friend you are without a doubt the most intelligent and normal human being that ever started on this site. You read, infrom yourself and look at the technical side of things. Very good! Unfortunatly i have no idea what to recommend to you for 300$, but a few tips.

1-Buy used on www.audiogon.com
2-Look for vintage gear
3-Dont buy anything bigger then lets say a 3" midrange driver
4-Make sure the box has some weight to it
5-Check that the impedance curve matches your amp
6-Enjoy!

pelly3s
11-28-2005, 05:46 AM
JBL 4430's wil solve your problem. Try hunting around for a pair of JBL's from the 4xxx series, Im sure you will find something that will fit your needs. And if you find the right seller you can get them for cheap. There is just something about a 15" 2-way box for rock music that you cant beat with anything else

kexodusc
11-28-2005, 06:03 AM
I realize most people here probably spend more on a single set of cables than I want to on my speakers, so I'm not expecting a perfect speaker or anything along those lines.

Let's not talk about those guys...most people here probably don't spend much on cables. And for good reason.


But my question is this, do most people stick with smaller speakers and a high quality sub because it actually offers better quality sound compared to a similarly priced set of floor standers, or just because they want/need something that takes up little space yet still retain the same sound quality of larger speakers?

First let's put this into perspective. Most speakers today are sold by companies with "family" product lines. I'll pick on Paradigm because they're popular, and not bad for the money. They have their "Monitor" series, which starts at the $375-400 spot all the way up to the Monitor 11's at over $1200. (maybe $1500, can't remember).
Basically you get the same tweeter, same midrange driver, and a bunch of bass drivers to handle below 600 Hz or so. So the price triples for that bottom 600 Hz.

The problem here is the competing speakers. Paradigm's also offers the Studio 40's, which are a standmount/bookshelf speaker for $1100 or so that are much better sounding from 80Hz on up than those Monitor 11's, IMO, but lack the bass slam. So then you have to weigh what's more important to you, added detail and resolution or bass punch and overall presentation. In this case I would always recommend getting those Mini Monitors, which would be 100% as good down to 100 Hz, if not better (smaller speakers image better and have a larger soundstage, all things equal, and have less complications than large multi-driver speakers) and get a subwoofer that has more bass punch than those Monitor 11's. You could have your cake and eat it too.


I've done reading here and on other various sites about how larger drivers (8"-10") have trouble clearly/accurately reproducing midrange frequencies, so I guess that's one of the trade-offs with a large driver speaker? Basically smaller driver speakers trade off some low end for a better midrange resolution? It seems like I very rarely see 8-10" drivers in the "high end" market. And it has to be high end for a reason, I'd assume. Just to get your opinion on the matter why aren't more speakers produced with larger drivers?
If this is the case what types of sounds are usually muddled by larger drivers? Male vocals?

10" drivers won't make good midrange speakers for home use...There's too much working against their size. But there are a lots of excellent 8" woofers that handle the lower midrange and bass quite well. The trick here is to match them with a quality tweeter. Some designers do this better than others. Below $1000, there aren't many 8" two-way speakers I'd recommend.


So I guess it comes down to which characteristics I'm willing to give up and which ones I'm not. Given my limited budged low bass is really quite important, as bringing a sub into the mix would up the price quite a bit (at least one buying)

You've got it figured out. 6.5" woofer and smaller = slightly better midrange performance, 8" woofer = more bass (and possibly better bass). In this hobby, we're all guilty of making mountains out of molehills when it comes to describing differences. Truth is, sometimes the added detail of a 6.5" isn't enough to offset the bass improvements of an 8" woofer. Let's face it...bass impact adds a certain "fun" element to the music. Overall presentation is the key here. Your personal preferences will dictate what's right. I've heard very detailed speakers that will capture the friction of a player's fingers on the strings sound very lacking because the bass wasn't up to par. For rock music especially I'd think bass is critical


Perhaps it would be better to stick with vintage gear, as I have been happy so far. I just hate that nagging feeling that I'm possibly missing something with the speakers using multiple smaller drivers or subs.
Separating speakers according to size can be tricky. I think the problem here is your budget. If I were you, I'd consider the used market (Audiogon, ebay). Your $300 will go much further than it would in a store. But try to find a speaker that you can demo in a showroom somewhere at least, don't buy blind.

drseid
11-28-2005, 06:07 AM
Thanks a lot for the reply, it was very informative.

I realize most people here probably spend more on a single set of cables than I want to on my speakers, so I'm not expecting a perfect speaker or anything along those lines.

But my question is this, do most people stick with smaller speakers and a high quality sub because it actually offers better quality sound compared to a similarly priced set of floor standers, or just because they want/need something that takes up little space yet still retain the same sound quality of larger speakers?

I've done reading here and on other various sites about how larger drivers (8"-10") have trouble clearly/accurately reproducing midrange frequencies, so I guess that's one of the trade-offs with a large driver speaker? Basically smaller driver speakers trade off some low end for a better midrange resolution? It seems like I very rarely see 8-10" drivers in the "high end" market. And it has to be high end for a reason, I'd assume. Just to get your opinion on the matter why aren't more speakers produced with larger drivers?

If this is the case what types of sounds are usually muddled by larger drivers? Male vocals?

So I guess it comes down to which characteristics I'm willing to give up and which ones I'm not. Given my limited budged low bass is really quite important, as bringing a sub into the mix would up the price quite a bit (at least one buying)

Perhaps it would be better to stick with vintage gear, as I have been happy so far. I just hate that nagging feeling that I'm possibly missing something with the speakers using multiple smaller drivers or subs.

Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate your feedback!

You are correct about 8+ inchers not reproducing midrange frequencies correctly (as a general rule). That said, I should clarify that the statement I was trying to make about larger drivers, and/or a lot of them was meant to be focused on a separate woofer (or many woofers) that do not handle the midrange duty. Good examples of these are speakers that are *way* above your price range, and as such I did not even mention them (as they start at 3.5K and go way higher). My own Tyler Acoustics speakers for example do this with a couple dedicated 8 inch woofers per side (that have the same effectiveness as a 12 incher per side), and a couple extra smaller drivers per side to handle the midrange and mid bass duties apart from the tweeters.

You can link to a picture of them here: http://tyleracoustics.com/Images/speakers/Linbrook/linbrook_sys_sm.jpg


Vintage is definately the way I would go in your case based on your needs and budget. I confess I am no expert in that area (just about as far from it as possible), so hopefully many others who are will respond with some good leads... I wish you the best in your audio pursuit. Please let us know how things wind up for you!

Regards,

---Dave

dmb_fan
11-28-2005, 05:45 PM
I just sold a pair of Snell E-III's for less than $300. They are 35"Hx13"Wx11"D and sport a 1" dome tweeter with an 8" midrange/woofer. A speaker like this might meet your needs for quality and quantity without breaking the bank. Maybe keep your eyes open for some. The design is classic and has been copied by many manufacturers, most notably Audio Note, which makes multi-thousand dollar knock-offs with upgraded wire and drivers etc.

I agree with just about everything else that has been said in this thread. An 8" midrange is less than ideal (IMHO) mainly because the high frequencies (1KHz to 3Khz or so) will be more directional than the low frequencies coming from the driver. This is called beaming. High frequency wavelengths are smaller and thus need to delivered by a smaller diaphragm to be disbursed evenly.

Beaming is not necessarily a bad thing. Horns are designed to control the directionality of high-frequency sounds. And nothing is more directional, or "beams", more than a 55" ribbon tweeter--and there are some very good-sounding ribbon speakers out there.

Anyway, I digress...

The problem is that good-sounding three way speakers with reasonably sized midrange drivers are very hard to find in your pricerange. You're better off going with a two-way. But as you've pointed out, the average two-way speaker with a 5" or 6" woofer is insufficient for your rock 'n roll needs. Enter the 8" midrange/woofer.

Hope that helps a little.

-Adam

caniac
11-28-2005, 06:16 PM
It's hard to find a good speaker for rock music nowadays. There's just no substitute for driver size, and unfortunately, nobody seems to want to make speakers with large drivers anymore. At least not within a reasonable price range.

Florian
11-28-2005, 06:23 PM
This may come as a suprise to some but the AudioNote speakers are a great match. They can rock, play loud and use almost no power at all. They need to be corner loaded which helps them on the bass. They can be had quite affordable too in the used market. My friend recently sold his J model for some Totem Acoustics. He likes the Totems better but said that the AN's were good with Rock music. Give it a listen.

bfalls
11-28-2005, 08:35 PM
I agree with the Legact Studio/subwofer combo, for accuracy and good bass, but if you're trying to stay in the $300 range I highly recommend a pair of used Klipsch Kg4s. They have a horn tweeter, two 8" mid/woofers in a sealed cabinet with a 10" passive radiator. They have excellent efficiency (94bd) and the passive design provides excellent output and well-defined, controlled bass. They have a well-balanced sound and resonably sized cabinet. I've had a pair for about 20 years and they still sound great. I use them daily. You can find them on ebay all the time in the $200-$300 range. I'm partial to the Oiled Oak finish, but they aslo come in Olied Walnut and black as well. I'll never sell mine. I paid $530 for the pair in 1985 and feel it was one of the best audio values I own.

Lensman
11-28-2005, 10:27 PM
With your preferences and budget, I'd recommend you look for a pair of Realistic Mach Ones (yes, a vintage Radio Shack speaker). Here's a link to it in the reviews section:

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/Realistic/PRD_120510_1594crx.aspx

Here's a link to a pair currently on eBay for $249 (Buy it Now price):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Realistic-Radio-Shack-Mach-One-1-Altec-Vintage-Speakers_W0QQitemZ5835825259QQcategoryZ50597QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Pierce
11-29-2005, 01:07 PM
I listen to a lot of Phish, Grateful Dead, DMB etc etc. Bands that IMO are known for full range sound. I get great sound from the JBL Northridge series. I have been a JBL phan since the mid 90's and will usually look there first when looking for new speakers. I rarely (if ever) can find a set that compares with the sound quality for the price. $298 per pair from JBL, they can be found online for a lot less. http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=E30&cat=NRE&ser=NRE hope this helps. I don't claim to be an audiophile and can't discuss intelligently the specs and other technical stuff, but I can tell you what sounds good to me!

Pierce

Ez34K
11-30-2005, 08:09 PM
Wow, thanks again for all the replies. Sorry for not responding sooner, I didn't expect that many people to reply in a day or so.

Anyway, I have really wanted to get a pair of KG4s for quite awhile now. I've been partial to the klipsch sound and after reading review after review the KG4s seem to be an awesome speaker for the price. I posted up an add on a local classified looking for a pair, they all wanted quite a bit more than eBay prices, but then shipping comes into the mix for large speakers. I was kind of waiting until I could find some on Ebay a bit closer to at least cut down on shipping costs some.

I have also been interested in the Realistic Mach series. Are the mach 1s the best, would you say? I just constantly hear people bash realistic/optimus/ratshack speakers so figured I'd look elsewhere.

Would you really consider these an upgrade from the Pioneer HPMs though? I heard the HPMs were based on JBL designes or something along those lines. They certainly looks similar. I'm just amazed at the quality of the HPMs with the cast frame drivers, huge magnets, thick cabinets with quite a bit of internal dampening. They just seem to be very well made speakers to me.

The JBLs look interesting, but I've always heard they were a bit harsh and not so forgiving in the high end. This would be particularly bad for me as most of the music I listen to as quite a bit of borderline harsh high end as it is. I mainly listen to Tool, APC, Primus, that sort of thing.

Another speaker I've been impressed with is the old Polk monitor series. I've owned the 4, 5, 5jr, and 7s. They all sounded great to me, although again lacking on the low end because of the 6.5" driver, but seem better than others with similar driver size.

Going with the polk monitor line, would you think the RTAs with dual 6.5" and dual 8" passives would offer a very big increase in bass compared to the 5s or 7s?

Yet another speaker I've been impressed with was B&O S45s. I bought a pair at a flea market for $4, which was quite a steal. They are in horrible condition though, midrange drivers were filthy because of the sticky coating, and the woofer cones were rather dirty as well. Also missing the covers and stands.

They had the best bass I've heard yet from a speaker with 8" woofer though (99% sure it's a peerless driver, as they are identical in every way to a pair of 8" peerless drivers I had, just lacked a peerless sticker on the back) and overall had amazingly clear well defined sound.

I've seen these go in the $150 area on eBay, so maybe that's another one I'll look into getting for my main system. I'm currently using them as my computer speakers as one woofer seems close to being blown, makes a faint rattling sound with the low notes. Still sounds good other than that thought.

The snell's sound interesting, took a look on eBay and could only find a few drivers for sale in the completed listings. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Thanks for the suggestion.

I hate to do this, but what do you guys suppose would be the best choice out of the following speakers?

B&O S-45
Klipsch KG4s
Polk Monitor RTA 11s
Snell E-IIIs

Thanks again for all the replies, I appreciate it!

Hermie
12-01-2005, 07:57 AM
Wow, thanks again for all the replies. Sorry for not responding sooner, I didn't expect that many people to reply in a day or so.

Anyway, I have really wanted to get a pair of KG4s for quite awhile now. I've been partial to the klipsch sound and after reading review after review the KG4s seem to be an awesome speaker for the price. I posted up an add on a local classified looking for a pair, they all wanted quite a bit more than eBay prices, but then shipping comes into the mix for large speakers. I was kind of waiting until I could find some on Ebay a bit closer to at least cut down on shipping costs some.

I have also been interested in the Realistic Mach series. Are the mach 1s the best, would you say? I just constantly hear people bash realistic/optimus/ratshack speakers so figured I'd look elsewhere.

Would you really consider these an upgrade from the Pioneer HPMs though? I heard the HPMs were based on JBL designes or something along those lines. They certainly looks similar. I'm just amazed at the quality of the HPMs with the cast frame drivers, huge magnets, thick cabinets with quite a bit of internal dampening. They just seem to be very well made speakers to me.

The JBLs look interesting, but I've always heard they were a bit harsh and not so forgiving in the high end. This would be particularly bad for me as most of the music I listen to as quite a bit of borderline harsh high end as it is. I mainly listen to Tool, APC, Primus, that sort of thing.

Another speaker I've been impressed with is the old Polk monitor series. I've owned the 4, 5, 5jr, and 7s. They all sounded great to me, although again lacking on the low end because of the 6.5" driver, but seem better than others with similar driver size.

Going with the polk monitor line, would you think the RTAs with dual 6.5" and dual 8" passives would offer a very big increase in bass compared to the 5s or 7s?

Yet another speaker I've been impressed with was B&O S45s. I bought a pair at a flea market for $4, which was quite a steal. They are in horrible condition though, midrange drivers were filthy because of the sticky coating, and the woofer cones were rather dirty as well. Also missing the covers and stands.

They had the best bass I've heard yet from a speaker with 8" woofer though (99% sure it's a peerless driver, as they are identical in every way to a pair of 8" peerless drivers I had, just lacked a peerless sticker on the back) and overall had amazingly clear well defined sound.

I've seen these go in the $150 area on eBay, so maybe that's another one I'll look into getting for my main system. I'm currently using them as my computer speakers as one woofer seems close to being blown, makes a faint rattling sound with the low notes. Still sounds good other than that thought.

The snell's sound interesting, took a look on eBay and could only find a few drivers for sale in the completed listings. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Thanks for the suggestion.

I hate to do this, but what do you guys suppose would be the best choice out of the following speakers?

B&O S-45
Klipsch KG4s
Polk Monitor RTA 11s
Snell E-IIIs

Thanks again for all the replies, I appreciate it!
Sorry...can i say Paradigm Monitor-3..just my opinion..tnx!