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Mike Anderson
11-25-2005, 11:39 PM
OK, I've had my MMGs for a coupla months now, and I really, really love them! Music sounds so lush and gorgeous, it's really made music a central part of my life again.

So now I'm bitten by the bug. And I'm wondering, when my 6-month period is up, should I trade them up for the big boys, the 1.6qr's?

I've read most of the reviews and they're all glowing, so I'm really tempted. But the thing is this: I don't really have a lot of flexibility in terms of positioning the speakers.

Everybody says positioning is critical. But my room is only about 15' wide (20' deep), and it doubles as my living room (as well as an entranceway), so the speakers can't really sit several feet away from the walls. It would just be way way too awkward and my wife wouldn't put up with it.

With my MMGs, I compensate for this by putting some high grade 4" Auralex acoustic foam (I happened to have some sitting around from my recording days) on the walls behind and next to the speaker. That makes the sound very tight, and I really like the way this sounds. Even so, I know the room has some "issues" on the bass end (there's a node at 65 hz that I'm having a hard time getting rid of).

The amp is a Musical Fidelity A3.2 dual mono integrated amp. I'm also using a Dayton 10" Titanic subwoofer from the kit, which I like very much.

So, would I be wasting my money on the 1.6qr's without the ability to position them optimally, in a dedicated listening room? Should I just stick with my MMGs and wait for another day to buy the 1.6qr's, when I can give them the space they require?

Or am I going to be just as blown away as I was when I first got the MMGs?

Mike Anderson
11-26-2005, 12:20 AM
BTW, here's what one of the MMGs looks like, parked in the corner with the acoustic foam:

http://static.flickr.com/30/67039765_cacf02a425_o.jpg

GMichael
11-26-2005, 06:05 AM
Very nice Mike.

I'm sure a few planner experts will be along soon to answer your questions. Keep us updated.

Feanor
11-26-2005, 07:19 AM
There is a very substantial improvement with the 1.6 over the MMG. The 1.6 is a bit smoother and more resolved, (thanks to a lower cross-over point), but the big improvement is the ability to move the air for things like rock music or classical orchestral crescendos.

Your room is big enough to handle the 1.6. Mine is slightly smaller than yours: maybe 14' x 20' which handles them quite well. I do use a baffle behind the speakers because I have to keep them only about 2.5' from the wall behind.

GMichael
11-26-2005, 07:30 AM
By the way, nice choice in reading material also. :cool:

Mike Anderson
11-26-2005, 10:27 AM
^^^ Thanks.

Yes I think I'm going to upgrade, just need to save my pennies until the 6-month deadline forces my hand.

E-Stat
11-26-2005, 11:57 AM
And I'm wondering, when my 6-month period is up, should I trade them up for the big boys, the 1.6qr's?
The 1.6s are one of the all time best speaker buys. I would think the top is better than the MMGs as well. Bigger is most always better with planars.

Here's a hint: Harry Pearson's exotic systems are almost exclusively on loan from the manufacturers. While they're not currently set up, he bought a pair of 1.6s for himself.

One of these days, you need to find a way to let them breathe with some more wall clearance. :)

rw

muziekfreak
11-26-2005, 11:59 AM
I've got the MMG for rears...great sounding speakers especially with a jadis tubeamp or something similar. GREAT....congrats with the bigger one great speakers for a very low price!

:)

Florian
11-27-2005, 12:50 AM
During my Maggie times i also had the 1.6, needless to say they are a giant killer and better then the MMG's in all ways. But we need to talk more about placment in your room! I'll be back in a few hrs and will type some more. Please read my small post about planar speaker placment (which is still not a sticky!) in the planar section.

Geoffcin
11-27-2005, 05:00 AM
The amp is a Musical Fidelity A3.2 dual mono integrated amp. I'm also using a Dayton 10" Titanic subwoofer from the kit, which I like very much.

So, would I be wasting my money on the 1.6qr's without the ability to position them optimally, in a dedicated listening room? Should I just stick with my MMGs and wait for another day to buy the 1.6qr's, when I can give them the space they require?

Or am I going to be just as blown away as I was when I first got the MMGs?

From the looks of things your going to have placement issues. Your room size is fine, but unless you can get the speakers out into the room more your not going to get the full effect from them. With the setup you have your effectively damping out the rear wave, and using the MMG as a direct firing tweeter/midrange with bass supplied from the titanic sub. I like this idea a lot, as I also use a sub to suppliment my maggies bass output. However, I think that your not going to see much of an improvement if you use the same setup with the 1.6qr. You WILL get a taller soundstage, and slightly better dynamics, but unless you get the speakers out into the room the additional dipole bass will not be there, and the amazing dipole "entire wall of sound" that large planars can produce will also be lost. So;

My advice is to wait on upgrading for now and enjoy your setup as it is. My guess is it probably sounds as good as nearly any planar you can put in the space you have. Save your $$$ for a time when you can get the larger speakers into a better location.

Florian
11-27-2005, 05:53 AM
Hello Mike and Geof.

To Geof. Can you please make the placment guide a sticky. This would help people who got into planar speakers.

To Mike. Can you please make a drawing of your room with the dimensions. I can advise you on the speaker placment and tell you if it will work with the 1.6 or maybe a MG12.

Cheers

Flo

Mike Anderson
11-27-2005, 08:34 AM
Florian,

I've read your piece on speaker placement. The problem isn't a lack of knowledge or understanding, it is dealing with practical reality.

I live in an apartment with my wife, and we have only one living room in which to place a stereo. The same room has to hold all kinds of other stuff, like a couch, chairs, coffee table, etc. If I place the speakers where you tell me, they'll pretty much dominate the room. People would have to walk around them, and I have no idea where everything else would go.

Florian
11-27-2005, 08:50 AM
This may sound odd but i have had the 100% same problem as you. If you draw me a plan i can make some suggestions, even living room friendly ones :p

Feanor
11-27-2005, 09:00 AM
Geof's advice is sound as usual, but a bit conservative. If you can manage 2 feet from the wall, you'll be OK especially with the wall treatment.

My setup has the MG 1.6's only 2.5' from the back wall and just under 2' from the sides ...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1414
http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1413&password=&sort=1&size=medium&cat=500&page=
Note the ceiling tile baffles just visible behind the speaker. It placed at about 400 with respect to the speaker; it serves to absorb a bit of the back wave and reflect the rest somewhat to the side.

The arrangement works very well indeed.

Mike Anderson
11-27-2005, 10:50 AM
OK Florian, just for you!

http://static.flickr.com/35/67551933_1f79bfeb59_o.jpg

Mike Anderson
11-27-2005, 10:56 AM
Oh, and I almost forgot: The cat's litter box is under the stairs. Here's a picture:

http://static.flickr.com/34/67555880_104140d044_o.jpg

Mike Anderson
11-30-2005, 10:51 PM
What, no reply to my post? :confused:

Hey, Florian, I thought you were going to help me out here, what happened?

(PS - I even took down the photo of the litter box!)

Florian
11-30-2005, 11:11 PM
I am sorry Mike, i forgot. Too many posts....

give me a few hrs. I will have a good solution by the evening.

-Flo

Florian
12-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Dear Mike,

sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I have been quite busy with people buggin me left and right. It was not on purpose. By looking at your room you do have some options. This may look weird in the beginning but i am sure that you and your girlfriend can find some nice ways to decorate it. Well lets see what we can push here, take the Maggies and place them at least 1.5m out from the wall on the door side (the right side) and place them aprox 40cm's from the side with the quassi ribbon on the inside. Make sure you measure the distance between them from the quassi ribbon and make your listening seat in a perfect stereo triangle. Let the quassi ribbon intersect at the front of your nose. Make sure you have no damping behind the Maggies and that they are perfectly symetrical in the room. A good start for tweaking is to place a tree or a room lense behind them and on the sides of them. You can make them look very atractive if you decorate them with hanging plants. Place the quipment on the top side and run speaker wire (biwiring) to the Maggies at the same lenght. It is important that you damped the first reflections on the side wall on the left Maggie. Do this with self made absorbers with fiberglass from Home Depot. I can help you on instructions, i have build some before. The Maggies are very slimm so they will not intrude in the space at all. Then junk the crossover and replace the caps with Audyn Caps and the coils with Tritech or Mundorf Aircoils. The next step is to raise them so that they play wih no toe-back and off the floor. Of course you can buy the 1.6 and they will work in your room and they do look very nice to boost. It is important that you do NOT absorb the back wall but disperse the pattern and break it up.

Well thats for starters, i will go to bed now since its 3:30AM but please try my sugestions and tell me how you like the sound. I can guarantee it will change the Maggie 180deggrees.

Feanor
12-03-2005, 05:32 AM
Mike,

That's a great diagram. Give consideration to putting the speakers on either side of the door on the right of the diagram, i.e. opposite the couch rather than the seat. The big thing here is to get the speakers 3 feet from the wall behind them, or a little less with sound absorption. Good the left speaker can be 2 feet from the side wall but 1 is fine especially with a absorption panel.

Of course, there might be factors the diagram doesn't show, such as WAF ;)


OK Florian, just for you!

http://static.flickr.com/35/67551933_1f79bfeb59_o.jpg

Mike Anderson
12-03-2005, 09:18 AM
sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I have been quite busy with people buggin me left and right. It was not on purpose.

Oh that's alright Florian, I was just giving you a hard time. I'm not in any big hurry. I appreciate your thoughts regardless of when you can send them.


By looking at your room you do have some options. This may look weird in the beginning but i am sure that you and your girlfriend can find some nice ways to decorate it.

BTW, she's my wife, not my girlfriend. If she was only my girlfriend, the speakers would take priority. :D


take the Maggies and place them at least 1.5m out from the wall on the door side (the right side) and place them aprox 40cm's from the side with the quassi ribbon on the inside.

I'm a little confused - can you be more specific about where they should sit? Do you mean the speakers should be facing to the left? If so, and I follow your directions literally, this ends up being a crazy configuration. (Note the 9 ft. wall in the middle of the room.)


Then junk the crossover and replace the caps with Audyn Caps and the coils with Tritech or Mundorf Aircoils.

At this point my plan is to trade the MMGs back in for the 1.6qr when the six month period is up, so I'm not going to mod the MMGs.


The next step is to raise them so that they play wih no toe-back and off the floor.

I do have the MMGs up off the floor about 8". And I modified the stands so that it toes back ever so slightly (probably a couple degrees off drop dead vertical). I did this because it seems to raise the soundstage a little; otherwise, the whole thing disappears as soon as you stand up!

That's part of the reason I'm interested in the 1.6qrs, I understand the soundstage is much larger than the MMGs; also, rock and roll will sound punchier, yes?


Of course you can buy the 1.6 and they will work in your room and they do look very nice to boost. It is important that you do NOT absorb the back wall but disperse the pattern and break it up.

Do you think the part about the back wall is true regardless of how close to the back wall I have to get? I actually really like the way it sounds now, with the baffles on the back wall. I realize it's killed that secondary wave, but it sounds awesome to me -- very tight and crisp.

Mike Anderson
12-03-2005, 09:30 AM
Give consideration to putting the speakers on either side of the door on the right of the diagram, i.e. opposite the couch rather than the seat.

I've thought about that actually. The problem is there are other things the diagram doesn't show (WAF notwithstanding.)

Right now, we have our TV, stereo equipment, and other junk between the two speakers at the top of the diagram. If I move all that over to the right, it'll block that door. That wouldn't be such a big deal if it was just a door, but those two doors on the right are actually a set of French doors that open out onto a deck. They let a lot of light into the living room, and it's nice to open them up when we have parties etc.

I could move the speakers over to the right and leave the TV on the left, but then the sound will be coming from a different place than the picture, which would be a little weird. But maybe that's just what I have to do.

Anyway, when I get the 1.6qrs, I'll revisit this problem.

The wife is more flexible than most, by the way. I actually agree with whatever concerns she might have. Shifting the speakers out 1.5 meters in front of the wall would basically put them right in the middle of the room; it'd be a big pain in the butt, so I'm not sure I want them there either.

Florian
12-03-2005, 01:54 PM
BTW, she's my wife, not my girlfriend. If she was only my girlfriend, the speakers would take priority. :D Well i am sure that once we fix your panel issue, and you play some tracks she likes that she will immediatly hear the improvement and you can take all the credit for it which always helps. Some girls love smart guys :p


I'm a little confused - can you be more specific about where they should sit? Do you mean the speakers should be facing to the left? If so, and I follow your directions literally, this ends up being a crazy configuration. (Note the 9 ft. wall in the middle of the room.) Well remove the speakers completely from the wall. Lets name the walls A,B,C and D. We start at the top and move in the motion of the clock. The Top is A and the next side is B. The speakers need to be along the B side with at least 1.5m from the B wall. Have the quassi ribbon in the inside and have it intersect infront of your nose. Make sure you disperse the back wave and not absorb it. When you place the left speaker you will have a first wall reflection which the right one will not have which is why you need to absorb the reflection from the left speaker on the side. Please also use a stereo triangle. I can walk you through this over the phone also if you would like.


At this point my plan is to trade the MMGs back in for the 1.6qr when the six month period is up, so I'm not going to mod the MMGs. Well that is ok then :-) By the way, the 1.6 Maggie is vastly superior in every single area over the MMG and the MG12. Same as the 3.6 is a huge step from the 1.6


I do have the MMGs up off the floor about 8". And I modified the stands so that it toes back ever so slightly (probably a couple degrees off drop dead vertical). I did this because it seems to raise the soundstage a little; otherwise, the whole thing disappears as soon as you stand up! Well that is fine but the optimum would be to raise them so that the middle of the panel (seen over the height) is at ear level when sitting down and reflect or dispere evenly. But for starters you can have them like that.


That's part of the reason I'm interested in the 1.6qrs, I understand the soundstage is much larger than the MMGs; also, rock and roll will sound punchier, yes? The difference lies in Transparency, delicacy, bass control and foundation, max spl's and the differentiation of instruments and their air around when which is embedded in the recording. They throw a larger, more realistic and even image then the MMG and MG12 Maggies. But they are also more revealing and do like good Solid State or Tube Amplifiers. Personally the best match i have found for the Maggies (1.6) is the Pathos Acoustocs Classic One Amplifier which can also drive the 3.6 Maggie. It is VERY important to loose the commercial electronics such as Rotel, B&K, NAD etc.. since the Maggies will play much more delicate and real with equipment a class higher. Not that those are bad components but they are a good start and the 1.6 will show off better electronics.


Do you think the part about the back wall is true regardless of how close to the back wall I have to get? I actually really like the way it sounds now, with the baffles on the back wall. I realize it's killed that secondary wave, but it sounds awesome to me -- very tight and crisp. Planar speakers need to have radiating space and they need the time delay from the indirect second reflection otherwise they will not sound like a good dipole planar speaker can. The reason they are so large and have no chassy is not for looks or for sales, if this were their goal they would build speakers like BOSE and other cute systems. In a concert hall or any good life recording there is a delay of time from the direct and indirect wave, and eventough this is on the recording the effect will not show much and that is why they are open in the back along with the lack of coloration and box resonance issues. I would much prefer the dispersion than the absorbtion of the back wave.

Enjoy the planar trip, at the end you will reach the holy grail.

-Florian

Mike Anderson
12-03-2005, 03:05 PM
In a concert hall or any good life recording there is a delay of time from the direct and indirect wave, and eventough this is on the recording the effect will not show much and that is why they are open in the back along with the lack of coloration and box resonance issues.

I understand that part, but these days I mostly listen to a lot of electronica and ambient stuff. It's almost exclusively computer generated and isn't necessarily supposed to sound like it's being played in a concert hall. Instead, it tends to be multi-layered and heavily coloured with computer-generated reverb (basically fake echo). I think that's part of the reason it sounds better to me without any back-wall dispersion.

But I will experiment when I get the 1.6qrs and see what different positioning sounds like. By then we'll be bored of our present living arrangement and a rearrangement will be a nice change.

Thanks for all your thoughts; once I have it all set up, I'll definitely report back on how I like it.

Florian
12-03-2005, 03:10 PM
Your welcome. Enjoy!