B&W 703 Floorstanders

[BillyB]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.

[topspeed]

Well, if mids are your main concern, I'm not sure the 9nt's would have solved your problem as they utilize the FST as well. Personally, I liked the 7nt's better than the 9's in no small part because of the differences in the transducers. The 9's were definitely more forward and I preferred the 7's overall cohesiveness.

Anywho, my first question would be why did you buy them in the first place? You did audition them extensively, correct? If so, it could be more of room interaction problem. Try repositioning the speakers, adding plants, curtains, carpets, or overstuffed furniture to try to tame the room a bit. Pay attention to first order reflections as they have a dramatic effect on perceived sound quality.

The other issue could be your source. Pop is mixed pretty hot as it is, and a revealing speaker will only exacerbate the problem. Combine this with your 12 year old cd player and I'm not at all surprised your system is brittle sounding. Understand, DAC's and rbcd playback has dramatically improved over the past decade as engineers have come to grips with the format. I'd bet real money that a modern $300 cd/sacd player would flat smoke your old Rotel.

If all your cd's sound bad even after addressing the room acoustics and source, it could very well be the speakers. The good news is that B&W's hold their value better than just about any other mass market speaker. You should have no problem unloading them on audiogon.com without taking too much of a hit.

Sorry to hear about your problems. Hope this helps.

[Pat]

BillyB,

Re-read the second paragraph of what Topspeed had to say.....it will make a huge difference in the sound of speakers. On the other hand I traded off my new Paradigm Studio 40's because their tweeter was too much for me.

[BillyB]

Well, if mids are your main concern, I'm not sure the 9nt's would have solved your problem as they utilize the FST as well. Personally, I liked the 7nt's better than the 9's in no small part because of the differences in the transducers. The 9's were definitely more forward and I preferred the 7's overall cohesiveness.

Anywho, my first question would be why did you buy them in the first place? You did audition them extensively, correct? If so, it could be more of room interaction problem. Try repositioning the speakers, adding plants, curtains, carpets, or overstuffed furniture to try to tame the room a bit. Pay attention to first order reflections as they have a dramatic effect on perceived sound quality.

The other issue could be your source. Pop is mixed pretty hot as it is, and a revealing speaker will only exacerbate the problem. Combine this with your 12 year old cd player and I'm not at all surprised your system is brittle sounding. Understand, DAC's and rbcd playback has dramatically improved over the past decade as engineers have come to grips with the format. I'd bet real money that a modern $300 cd/sacd player would flat smoke your old Rotel.

If all your cd's sound bad even after addressing the room acoustics and source, it could very well be the speakers. The good news is that B&W's hold their value better than just about any other mass market speaker. You should have no problem unloading them on audiogon.com without taking too much of a hit.

Sorry to hear about your problems. Hope this helps.
Thanks for your opinion. I did demo the 703's but should have also been looking at many other speakers in the price range.My lesson learned is simply"if it ain't broke don't fix it" The Proac speakers I replaced were fantastic.I had the right mix of equipment and the sound was special.Upgrading just for the sake of change can be a huge disappointment and waste of money.Lesson Learned!!!!!

[gonefishin]

Thanks for your opinion. I did demo the 703's but should have also been looking at many other speakers in the price range.My lesson learned is simply"if it ain't broke don't fix it" The Proac speakers I replaced were fantastic.I had the right mix of equipment and the sound was special.Upgrading just for the sake of change can be a huge disappointment and waste of money.Lesson Learned!!!!!

Lesson learned? Then ask yourself why your traveling down that road again?





good luck :)

dan

[BillyB]

Lesson learned? Then ask yourself why your traveling down that road again?





good luck :)

dan
Now that I've invested $3000 on a speaker upgrade, I don't think spending another $700 to replace a 12 year old obsolete CDP is going down the same road.Of course I wish I bought the CDP first but too late for that.If I'm lucky the new CDP will show off the strengths of the B&W 703's.It's a chance I have to take.

[JohnMichael]

BillyB I feel your pain. When you have lived with a system for a long time and like it but you want to take that next step up it gets tricky. I have a 9 year old CDP and I will be replcaing it soon. I am concerned about throwing the system out of balance. Next I will be shopping for speakers. The few times I have not enjoyed listening to my system is when I had the wrong cables for the componets in use. I lean to changing cables to improve the sound. IMO silver plated copper cables and interconnects are bright. I would also work with speaker positioning others recommended. After all that is a free tweak. Check how you have the speakers toed in. Having the tweeters pointing at your listening position could give you too much high frequency. I would hate for you to take a loss if a simple fix will help.

[BillyB]

Just another thought Topspeed.Many years ago a highly regarded audio shop owner told me that the better speakers(under $4000) were usually 2-way in design and quite often the smaller stand size speaker.I was a novice and didn't think a smaller speaker with less drivers would be adequate.He persuaded me to buy a pair of Proac 2-way stand speakers with Rotel components.The Proacs were simply great speakers even to my untrained ear.His argument was that 2-way speakers in this price range were usually better then a larger 3-way speaker.The speakers would have better quality drivers and a 2 way(or 21/2) arrangement would produce a better overall sound then a comparibly priced 3 way.These Proacs at $1300 seemed to echo that.They were incredible, even putting out exceptional bass for a small speaker.Proac's approach is to use less drivers but achieve great sound with higher quality drivers,crossovers,cabinet design,etc.If I decide to replace my 703's, I was thinking of downsizing to a high quality 2-way again.I miss the Proacs. What is your opinion about speaker choices under $3000.Do you agree that you get better quality sound out of a high end 2-way than a bigger 3-way with more drivers.I'm not a huge bass fan so the dropoff in bass with smaller speakers doesn't phase me.I know this isn't a simple question but I'd like to get your opinion.Thanks

[gonefishin]

Hi BillyB,

I noticed that you've stated several places that you liked your proacs. They're a nice easy sounding speaker. Reading your posts...it seems your still looking for that ProAc sound.
Putting money into a new CDplayer isn't a bad idea. But from reading your posts...I just don't think that's what your looking for.

I know that you do have to come up with some other solution, which keeps the 703's. Maybe a tubed CD player could be the answer to help smooth things out for you.

Hmmm...I'll be right back.

Here's one (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=23265)that I had seen used. It would be good if he could come down a bit...but it may be an option???
*no connection to the player or seller*

good luck,
dan

[BillyB]

BillyB I feel your pain. When you have lived with a system for a long time and like it but you want to take that next step up it gets tricky. I have a 9 year old CDP and I will be replcaing it soon. I am concerned about throwing the system out of balance. Next I will be shopping for speakers. The few times I have not enjoyed listening to my system is when I had the wrong cables for the componets in use. I lean to changing cables to improve the sound. IMO silver plated copper cables and interconnects are bright. I would also work with speaker positioning others recommended. After all that is a free tweak. Check how you have the speakers toed in. Having the tweeters pointing at your listening position could give you too much high frequency. I would hate for you to take a loss if a simple fix will help.
It's pain indeed!!Those of us with limited finances simply can't replace equipment at our every whim. Purchases need to be thoroughly planned and I think sometimes you need a little luck.It's rare to be able to hear speakers your looking to buy with your exact mix of equipment and cables.Then of course there"s the acoustics of the stereo shop versus home.I truly thought the 703's were a good choice. I was shocked at how awful they sounded at home.When I mentioned this to my salesman he assured me they would tone down after a lengthy Burn-in.Well 2 years later they still hurt my ears!!!Thanks for the reply.

[topspeed]

What is your opinion about speaker choices under $3000.Do you agree that you get better quality sound out of a high end 2-way than a bigger 3-way with more drivers.I'm not a huge bass fan so the dropoff in bass with smaller speakers doesn't phase me.I know this isn't a simple question but I'd like to get your opinion.Thanks
Yes and no.

A lot depends on the ability of the designer and where it is manufactured. Common sense dictates that higher quality parts are better than lesser quality, therefore it's easy to buy into the argument that less is actually more in the 2 way vs. 3 way debate. However, I'm sure we can both note a few occasions whereas a talented designer has taken mediocre parts and produced magic. In addition, what happens when the parts are made in low-cost areas such as China? I know most "audiophiles" love to turn their noses up at anything from a supposed third world country, but I assure you that a lot of audio products coming from the Far East easily surpass the quality of those from either the "Old World" (or "New World") for that matter. The bottom line is that there are simply too many variables involved to make such a blanket statement, IMO.

To me, the biggest challenge once you venture beyond the realm of 2 ways is the crossover design. Naturally, the more drivers you have, the more ways you have to split the signal (unless you're Reference 3A, which doesn't use crossovers). In a world that considers off-the-shelf transducers from Peerless, Scanspeak, Dynaudio, or Focal as the norm instead of the exception, it's often the talent of the designer and their crossover design that separates the wheat from the chaff.

As for your question regarding what is the best $3K speaker? The honest answer is that I have no idea. I can say that if I were looking for speakers in the $3-4K range, I would want it all. This means I want a speaker that is full range and I really don't care how it does it, whether 2 way, 3 way, ribbon, radialstrahler...whatever. I have a hard time outlaying that kind of coin and ending up with a rig that requires an additional sub out of neccesity. Uhh...no thanks, I'll take the zero.

Some of the speakers that I have heard and will consider when I build my next rig are the Gallo Ref 3, Von Schweikert VR4 and VR4jr, Maggie 3.6, and JML Electra. Right now, the VR4jr's would probably be my first choice although I haven't heard the Ref3 with the plate amp, which I understand makes a profound difference. I would also want to audition speakers from Usher, Tyler Acoustics, Dali, EFE Technologies and AN just off the top of my head. Speakers that aren't my cup 'o tea but you should consider are Vandersteen, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, and Dynaudio. BTW, if you like ProAc, you'd likely enjoy Spendor, Harbeth, and maybe Reference 3A as well.

The key is to not get too wrapped up in the design and instead consider the speaker as a whole. After all, we don't listen to the individual transducers. We listen to the entire speaker, right? As long as your toes are tappin', who cares how they go about it?

Hope this helps.

[theaudiohobby]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.

I get the feeling that the very feature that makes the B&W 703 superior to the speaker it replaced is what causing you problems, i.e. superior dispersion. This is probably excerbarated by the Rotels, some of which on the bright side of neutral, do they still have tone controls, if they do use them. If what I read about the Arcams is true, then they seem to have moved away from the laidback sound of old and gotten brighter, but I have yet to listen to any new arcam CDPs, so I cannot confirm this. If your Rotel has tone controls then my advise is to use them to cut the treble output, rather than embarking on an equipment merry go round, trying to use another component to compensate for the perceived weakness of another.

PS: IIRC, Hi-FiChoice made a comment that B&W tweaked the balance of the 703/704? not sure which one, not long after it was introduced after some feedback (I think?) to tame brightness.

[RGA]

It's pain indeed!!Those of us with limited finances simply can't replace equipment at our every whim. Purchases need to be thoroughly planned and I think sometimes you need a little luck.It's rare to be able to hear speakers your looking to buy with your exact mix of equipment and cables.Then of course there"s the acoustics of the stereo shop versus home.I truly thought the 703's were a good choice. I was shocked at how awful they sounded at home.When I mentioned this to my salesman he assured me they would tone down after a lengthy Burn-in.Well 2 years later they still hurt my ears!!!Thanks for the reply.


I used to like B&W but the 700 series IMO is garbage. Whatever the reviews I have listened to this line several times at several locations and with quality gear. My front runner was B&W as i used to own a pair but my dealer www.soundhounds.com intrioduced me to stuff they sell but also buy for their own homes. B&W's 700 series is so truly bad IME, and following up ont he equally bad CM series that it is really really difficult for me not to compare them to Bose for the affluent. The 705 at $2300.00Cad is a bad speaker IMO and what's worse it's not jsut overpriced it is a good $1700.00 overpriced. At $500.00Cad it would STILL be unremarkable. Bright is the least of the problems.

[StanleyMuso]

Billy, I feel for you. In an ideal world with unlimited finances we could just keep changing gear until we were entirely satisfied. As it is, most of us with ordinary jobs and family commitments have to save for a long time, research as much as possible and hopefully find something which is value for money and satisfy us long term.

I too bought the 703s just a little over a year ago after searching for a number of years. I did not intend to get such an expensive speaker, but agreed to listen to them just to see what they were like. I also listened to their predecessors. Since a large part of my musical interest is classical and vocal, I always assumed I would end up with a speaker which had a soft dome silk tweeter because so many reviewers said they were good for such music, and that metal domes were shrill and harsh. In my years of listening I heard quite a few harsh metal dome tweeters, and had finally found a two way floor stander with Scandinavian made silk dome tweeter and woofers/mids (based on reviews which praised it highly) which I thought would suit my purpose. I went to the hi-fi shop to have a listen, and found I was disappointed. I then asked to listen to the 703 again. Side by side, the 703 was superior. The first set of speakers sounded muffled, as if the music was coming out of a box stuffed with cotton. The 703s were airy and clear. I could clearly hear every instrument, and every word sung, both male and female. I tried it against other speakers in the shop, went away for a couple of weeks and listened to other speakers in other shops. In the end, I couldn’t go past the 703s.

However, once I had them home, I had a serious case of buyer’s remorse – they sounded shrill and harsh. I thought I had made a terrible mistake. After about two weeks of solid playing, they settled down. I am now very pleased with their mid and high range performance. I had a lot more trouble with bass boom, and did a lot of experimenting with room placement and using different combinations of the bungs. I find that they sound best when placed a little over two feet away from the walls, and well out of the corners. I used a laser pointer to aim the tweeters, and have them aimed about two to three feet to the sides from where I sit. There are Persian rugs and painting on the walls, heavy drapes on the one window wall, several bookshelves and lots of soft furniture and rugs on the floor. These, I suppose, would be absorbing a lot of the high frequency energy.

To drive them, I’m using a Rotel pre-amp and a Musical Fidelity amp. I wonder if it’s the amp which is contributing to the good mid and upper sounds? Until I can afford something better, I’m using a Marantz DV4300 for both music and DVDs, and a Luxman tuner. As I said before, I’m now reasonably happy with their sound. It doesn’t stop me from wondering, of course, if I could have found something better in that price range. Guess one has to learn to be satisfied with what one’s got, otherwise it’s a never ending hunt for something better.

One final hint: I heard of at least one person who claimed to have tamed the harshness of the tweeters by placing tissue paper inside the wire covering of the tweeter so that the bottom half of the tweeter was covered. Perhaps this could help your situation. I personally have not tried this because, at least in my room, I don't need to.

[jocko_nc]

What Topspeed said... Take a look at the room considerations.

Being down in Atlanta over the holidays, I noticed my father-in-law has BW 703's. (Rather, I remembered what they looked like long enough to look them up.) I must say they sound pretty darn good. He has a good room, big with lots of attention to acoustics. It is a dedicated theatre room. As far as an amp, he has whatever the "flagship" Pioneer Elite model was about two years ago. I don't know that I would buy the 703's for the money, but his sound pretty good.

jocko

[adam01k]

I have a Rotel 1072 HDCD, NAD 216 and a pair of Mission 783s. I have home auditioned the B&Ws and found them to be very nice. I actually prefer my Missions, (I paid $600.00 used) that may be a profound statement but I am tickled with the system I put together. I think your compentry is very compatible, but may be your speaker placement isnt right.
I liked the B&Ws but thought they were a bit overrated.

[BillyB]

Billy, I feel for you. In an ideal world with unlimited finances we could just keep changing gear until we were entirely satisfied. As it is, most of us with ordinary jobs and family commitments have to save for a long time, research as much as possible and hopefully find something which is value for money and satisfy us long term.

I too bought the 703s just a little over a year ago after searching for a number of years. I did not intend to get such an expensive speaker, but agreed to listen to them just to see what they were like. I also listened to their predecessors. Since a large part of my musical interest is classical and vocal, I always assumed I would end up with a speaker which had a soft dome silk tweeter because so many reviewers said they were good for such music, and that metal domes were shrill and harsh. In my years of listening I heard quite a few harsh metal dome tweeters, and had finally found a two way floor stander with Scandinavian made silk dome tweeter and woofers/mids (based on reviews which praised it highly) which I thought would suit my purpose. I went to the hi-fi shop to have a listen, and found I was disappointed. I then asked to listen to the 703 again. Side by side, the 703 was superior. The first set of speakers sounded muffled, as if the music was coming out of a box stuffed with cotton. The 703s were airy and clear. I could clearly hear every instrument, and every word sung, both male and female. I tried it against other speakers in the shop, went away for a couple of weeks and listened to other speakers in other shops. In the end, I couldn’t go past the 703s.

However, once I had them home, I had a serious case of buyer’s remorse – they sounded shrill and harsh. I thought I had made a terrible mistake. After about two weeks of solid playing, they settled down. I am now very pleased with their mid and high range performance. I had a lot more trouble with bass boom, and did a lot of experimenting with room placement and using different combinations of the bungs. I find that they sound best when placed a little over two feet away from the walls, and well out of the corners. I used a laser pointer to aim the tweeters, and have them aimed about two to three feet to the sides from where I sit. There are Persian rugs and painting on the walls, heavy drapes on the one window wall, several bookshelves and lots of soft furniture and rugs on the floor. These, I suppose, would be absorbing a lot of the high frequency energy.

To drive them, I’m using a Rotel pre-amp and a Musical Fidelity amp. I wonder if it’s the amp which is contributing to the good mid and upper sounds? Until I can afford something better, I’m using a Marantz DV4300 for both music and DVDs, and a Luxman tuner. As I said before, I’m now reasonably happy with their sound. It doesn’t stop me from wondering, of course, if I could have found something better in that price range. Guess one has to learn to be satisfied with what one’s got, otherwise it’s a never ending hunt for something better.

One final hint: I heard of at least one person who claimed to have tamed the harshness of the tweeters by placing tissue paper inside the wire covering of the tweeter so that the bottom half of the tweeter was covered. Perhaps this could help your situation. I personally have not tried this because, at least in my room, I don't need to.
I'm glad you have come to appreciate the 703's.They're a big investment.I find their reproduction of instruments to be very solid.My biggest complaint is with the FST midrange. It's too out front with vocals for me. I think this speaker is better suited for jazz and classical,the inherent edginess of rock and pop CD's is pronounced with the 703's.On the other hand a lot of people like these speakers. It comes down to personal taste,equipment,room acoustics, and music choice.I can't do much with acoustics.My listening room is my living room with looks being more important then acoustics.My room needs a warmer speaker so I'll have to sell my 703's at a loss and start over.I should be able to get at least $1500 for my 2 year old 703's. I'm going to limit myself to that amount for my new speaker purchase. I'm confident I can find an excellent speaker in that price range.My previous Proac 2-ways were $1300 and sounded sweet in this same room with the same components.Thanks for the reply and I'm glad the 703's settled in for you.
,

[BillyB]

I'm intrigued by your strong negative opinion of the B&W 700 series.You owned a pair of B&W's and it sounds like you liked them.The 703's were my second major speaker purchase,and I put too much emphasis on reviews and being wowed by the B&W name.While they get good reviews, those that don't like them all say the same thing.Too much top end!!! I truly don't think that dollar for dollar I could be any unhappier.I don't think a speaker should need perfect component interaction,room acoustics,placement, and CD choice to sound great let alone tolerable.Is a speaker this revealing good to anyone with less than perfect conditions??

[StanleyMuso]

these speakers are better for classics and jazz. Mine are used all the time for TV and DVD viewing, and as far as music goes, I listen mostly to jazz and classics, with some older pop - and mostly, for me the sound is great. I listen to Rock only occassionaly, so perhaps I missed noticing what you are experiencing. I'll put some on tonight and see if I can hear what you are describing. Perhaps I have been lucky in having such a well damped room. I can understand what a great disappointment they must be for you, especially bearing in mind their cost. Speakers are the most important part of ones system, so if they don't cut it for you, you will never be satified. I too tend to like a warmer speaker, and if I had more money, I think I might keep the 703s for the positives which they give me, but buy a second set for use with program materials which don't siute them. That's what one of my friends has done. He has one set of floor standers and another set of stand mounted bookshelf speakers, and alternates between them for different types of music. But then again, he also has a solid state pre-amp as well as a valve pre, which he also constantly alternates. Perhaps that's going overboard?

[RGA]

I'm intrigued by your strong negative opinion of the B&W 700 series.You owned a pair of B&W's and it sounds like you liked them.The 703's were my second major speaker purchase,and I put too much emphasis on reviews and being wowed by the B&W name.While they get good reviews, those that don't like them all say the same thing.Too much top end!!! I truly don't think that dollar for dollar I could be any unhappier.I don't think a speaker should need perfect component interaction,room acoustics,placement, and CD choice to sound great let alone tolerable.Is a speaker this revealing good to anyone with less than perfect conditions??

Equipment matters yes but every B&W owner I personally know - and they are and were many continaully are trying new amps and speakers to find something anything that will make them sound good. Sorry but while I know equipment makes a big difference after a while you have to look at the speakers. Rotel is more than an adequate match for B&W speakers which is why B&W shared importin to North America. While some makers will darken down the sound and sound better Rotel's separates (at least their power amps) should be more than enough to drive them without adding too much glare.

I owned the 302s back when i was moving to where my college was located I could not lug around my big top of the line Wharfedales - so I listened to practically every mainstream well reviewed budget ~$300.00Cdn standmounts as a tide me over. The 302 and the 602S2 were in the running and the 302 sounded better. It sounded better to me than most speakers up to $500.00 because it was a smart inventive little design witht he open backed port and a very nice vocal band. The 602 sounded bigger had more power and in most every way beat the 302 except for two things -- treble fatigue and cohesiveness. I don;t care how much bass and treble extension and "slam" you get - if you can hear the treble calling attention to itself or being etchy or the sound not sounding as one then it has problems. Not that the 302 was great in this regard but at the price it sure as hell was. I liked it way more than the new 303 as well.

The funny thing was when I traded the 302 in at soundhounds within 1hour and while I was still in the store another customer scooped them up. So I met the guy who bought my 302's it was a busy day and a few others noted including a salesperson that "why they got rid of this (302) for that new one was beyond all of us". I regret trading it in in many ways because after hearing so many other $500.00Cad speakers out there and how annoying most of them can be that 302 is looking and sounding like a little gem.

I was a huge B&W supporter and i still recommend many speakers from them. The CDM 2SE I liked better at $1200.00 than the $2k Totem model 1 for example.

Interestingly the 302 was the only speaker they made in a soft dome and a non kevlar driver. Umm yeah.

B&W is not the only company that over the last 5 years has really begun to show me they're just selling appearance and name recognition. I liked the CDM 1NT for about $1650.00Cad -- so when the 705 came out at $2300.00 nearly 50% more money one would hope for an improvement and in a couple of less important areas it is. But the bass and the dynamic bass and the dynamics are just abysmal. I suppose to be fair it depends what you compare them directly against. many B&W dealers in my province compare them against very similar designs offerring pretty much the same sound and it makes it very difficult to discenr much. If yoyu listen to 5 speakers and all have the same general design concept then people will talk about bass and treble...I did for years on this forum arguing for B&W over another brand..I would hear them head to head and one would sound to me that bit better so I would recommend it. Then comes a few no namers that just crushed them and for less money so I don;t get involved in the B&W versus that other one I blasted because the differences between the two are now seemingly so small and so unimportant that I wonder why I bothered arguuing them at all -- experience is the key.

My dealer soundhounds who is a big B&W dealer told me that it's almost good for people to own B&W and some of the similar speakers he sells for a while so that they will much more appreciate the stuff they think is actually worth buying. I have been only in this for 15 years now and I have bought stuff based on reviews or at least listened based off reviews so many times and most of the time I regretted it so I don't buy magazines anymore unless there is a particular article I want to see -- so maybe one issue every three years.

I think the B&W 600 series is a good starting point for beginning audiophiles - after that I would nto touch B&W with a ten foot pole. The N801 and N802 for the money are tough to swallow as well - hype hype and more hype but they just are not musically rewarding loudspeakers long haul -- they look great are seemingly well built but after hearing a few no name brands at half and 30% their price tag and I scratch my head in disbelief.

I still own my Wharfedale Vanguards from 1991 and no they are not a technically wonderous marvel in audiophile E's but at the same time they don't sound like constipated uninspired amusical bore inducing treble fatiguing overpriced hyped to the hilt speakers.

My Wharfedales are called the Vanguards and sold from 1988-1993 and were three way versions of the one in the link I am providing. The E-70 is from the 1970s and the Vanguard looks very similar but with one midrange unit (a much better one) and what looks like Fostex horn tweeter (no they sound nothing like Klipsch) and the Vanguard is much more solid in the bass 40hz-23khz but at level. Listen to any canadian made standmount claim 40hz and then listen to the vanguards claim of 40hz and you will know quickly why spec sheets and advertising is BS. The Wharfedale's soundstage is big (too big perhaps and it's imaging is nothing to write home about but what it does well the 703 could not carry the Vanguards bags. the Vanguard will pound it musically, dynamically, bass roomfillidness and that draw your toe to tapping quality and the ALIVE you will hear me and you will pay attention to what I'm playing, quality of the speaker is tough to deny. In terms of pure frequency response (and what is judged to be more accurate) they won't beat most of the newer speakers I have no doubt - but at the same time a LOT of Wharfedale Vanguards sold and I have never ever seen any on the used market ever. One repair place has seen a great many come in for re-rubberring and people abusing them because they play very very loud.

But everytime i go out to audition a speaker I say ok you beat the Wharfedale in soundstaging and imaging but what else you got. the answer is usually nothing. Now granted this was the top Wharfedale speaker and it was $2kUS in 1990 which probably means it would be $4k now but you get the idea. And by no means was the Wharfedale the only consideration - there were some Klipsch models (few admittedly) that were way more fun to listen to than some of these 6.5 inch stacked up below a 1 inch metal tweeter that just sound so wrong in the vocal band (nasal) and so dynamically inept. Anyway here is the link and the Vanguard is significantly better than the E70 but there is no Vanguard article. I bet the E-70 for the 150 pounds it would get on the used market would give any $3k B&W a real run and most of the $3ki speakers out there a real run in terms of MUSICAL satisfaction. The technical prowess maybe not but which is more important - being satisfied or showing firends white papers and graphs. http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/wharfedalee70.html

Sorry about the rant but

[theaudiohobby]

I'm glad you have come to appreciate the 703's.They're a big investment.I find their reproduction of instruments to be very solid.My biggest complaint is with the FST midrange. It's too out front with vocals for me. I think this speaker is better suited for jazz and classical,the inherent edginess of rock and pop CD's is pronounced with the 703's.On the other hand a lot of people like these speakers. It comes down to personal taste,equipment,room acoustics, and music choice.I can't do much with acoustics.My listening room is my living room with looks being more important then acoustics.My room needs a warmer speaker so I'll have to sell my 703's at a loss and start over.I should be able to get at least $1500 for my 2 year old 703's. I'm going to limit myself to that amount for my new speaker purchase. I'm confident I can find an excellent speaker in that price range.My previous Proac 2-ways were $1300 and sounded sweet in this same room with the same components.Thanks for the reply and I'm glad the 703's settled in for you.
,

Your last post is probably the most enlightning, you have nailed why do not like the 703's quite nicely, if you do not like an upfront presentation and prefer a more laidback sound. The Audio Notes fall into that definition, so do the Spendors also but I am less familiar with them, or maybe just go back and get some floorstanding Proacs.

[StanleyMuso]

Methinks you sound like a religious convert who desperately tries to convince everyone his former religion is crap. I may not have your vast knowledge or experience of so many different speakers, but I just cannot agree with everything you are saying about B&W. The 703s are not the first B&Ws in the family,and I must say that I have a much better opinion of them than you do. However, I am not wedded to them for ever, and likely as not my next speakers will be something completely different. I have owned other brands in the past from different manufacturers and from different countries which I enjoyed very much. By the by, I have auditioned Wharfdales several times in the past twenty or so years, and I'm afraid I just did not like them. However, I don't preach against them, because I recognise that different people like different things, and perhaps even hear differently.

I'm just amused how emotionaly attached people can get to their choices and try to deffend them so strenuously. I say I like my 703s, but I also recognise their drawbacks and don't try to convince people that they are "the best". As I said, likely as not, my next set of speakers will be something completely different. Until then, I intend to enjoy my current setup as much as I can.

[vlastoc]

Change of CDP won't help to sound of your 703's imo. As was adviced, try to adjust or improve acoustic of your room, if this won't help, from my point of view, sell them and spend much time with auditioning of other brand's before you buy any of them.

tips: Focal Electra, Dynaudio (but, I'm not sure if they fit to your kind of music so well), Audio Phisic, Sonus Faber, Rega... and other mentioned above.

v.

[RGA]

Methinks you sound like a religious convert who desperately tries to convince everyone his former religion is crap. I may not have your vast knowledge or experience of so many different speakers, but I just cannot agree with everything you are saying about B&W. The 703s are not the first B&Ws in the family,and I must say that I have a much better opinion of them than you do. However, I am not wedded to them for ever, and likely as not my next speakers will be something completely different. I have owned other brands in the past from different manufacturers and from different countries which I enjoyed very much. By the by, I have auditioned Wharfdales several times in the past twenty or so years, and I'm afraid I just did not like them. However, I don't preach against them, because I recognise that different people like different things, and perhaps even hear differently.

I'm just amused how emotionaly attached people can get to their choices and try to deffend them so strenuously. I say I like my 703s, but I also recognise their drawbacks and don't try to convince people that they are "the best". As I said, likely as not, my next set of speakers will be something completely different. Until then, I intend to enjoy my current setup as much as I can.

I am not recommending any one brand and i don;t particularly like most of what i have heard from Wharfedale. In the past 20 years Wharfedale has had at LEAST 3 different owners. The Vanguard was and is like no other Wharfedale -- it is not a Diamond series speaker AT ALL and while I like the Diamonds for the money we're talking horns versus not horns. They came out with abysmal Modus series speakers and a long line of other stuff that did not entertain. The Vanguards I have are hardly free of weaknesses - otherwise I would not have bought something else.

The 700 series for me is a bad line in the sense that to me it is grossly overpriced for what you get...that is not a statement to advertise what I like or a comparison of what I like but a statmeent in the terms of that speaker against every speaker I have heard at the price over the last 15 years. The 705 is the WORST 2k standmount I have EVER heard. It is so unmusical that it is totally unnacceptable.

I'm not bringing Audio Note into this discussion - it has nothing to do with AN so why others bring them up I do not know. Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.

[StanleyMuso]

I am not recommending any one brand and i don;t particularly like most of what i have heard from Wharfedale. In the past 20 years Wharfedale has had at LEAST 3 different owners. The Vanguard was and is like no other Wharfedale -- it is not a Diamond series speaker AT ALL and while I like the Diamonds for the money we're talking horns versus not horns. They came out with abysmal Modus series speakers and a long line of other stuff that did not entertain. The Vanguards I have are hardly free of weaknesses - otherwise I would not have bought something else.

The 700 series for me is a bad line in the sense that to me it is grossly overpriced for what you get...that is not a statement to advertise what I like or a comparison of what I like but a statmeent in the terms of that speaker against every speaker I have heard at the price over the last 15 years. The 705 is the WORST 2k standmount I have EVER heard. It is so unmusical that it is totally unnacceptable.

I'm not bringing Audio Note into this discussion - it has nothing to do with AN so why others bring them up I do not know. Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.
to a certain extent I was playing Devil's Advocate. I do agree with you that, for what you get, the 700s and above are overpriced. I managed to get mine at 30% discount at an end of year sale, otherwise, I would not have paid full price. However, generally, don't you think that most esoteric hi-fi is overpriced? Is a Krell, or a Bryston, or a Halcro amp really worth the asking price?

[theaudiohobby]

Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.

If the B&W 703 is described as "upfront", I wonder what the J or E are in relation to the 703, upfront or laidback,or is it schizophrenic ;) , more laidback and more upfront than the 703 at the same time ;). By the way, a laidback speaker can have huge dynamics, different xteristics.

PS: I see that you have moved on from the Genelecs and the ELACs, to the Quads, you are doing a good job, keep up the good work :) :).

[RGA]

to a certain extent I was playing Devil's Advocate. I do agree with you that, for what you get, the 700s and above are overpriced. I managed to get mine at 30% discount at an end of year sale, otherwise, I would not have paid full price. However, generally, don't you think that most esoteric hi-fi is overpriced? Is a Krell, or a Bryston, or a Halcro amp really worth the asking price?

I don;t get into price discussions too much because price is subjective in that if one speaker gives you good sound and costs say $2500.00 and the next speaker gives you a 10% improvement and costs $8,000.00 then so long as the improvement is there then it is up to you decide on the importance of that improvement. I also don't generally like % improvements because that is a meaningless term outside of an analogy on internet forums. If I can say that a Krell at $70k is better than bryston's best at 10K then it's better -- the issue of overpriced for me comes into play when you pay way more and get IMO worse or no better sound.

When i had my Sugden A48b which was 2k new but which I bought used for a few hundred and running my speakers and a very modest cd player for a grand total of at new prices of around $6k US and then listening to the Wilson Sophia Krell and levinson set-up which runs more than $50kUS closer to $60K if it was better even by 2% then I would say hey that is one heck of a premium to pay for that 2% improvement but that;s up to you. That 2% could be the difference between fatigue inducement and not and so that may be very critical. I would merely call the system overpriced because it in no way bested what I had in my home so I scratch my head and think "well it ain't about how much you spend but on the design you spend it on"

[RGA]

If the B&W 703 is described as "upfront", I wonder what the J or E are in relation to the 703, upfront or laidback,or is it schizophrenic ;) , more laidback and more upfront than the 703 at the same time ;). By the way, a laidback speaker can have huge dynamics, different xteristics.

PS: I see that you have moved on from the Genelecs and the ELACs, to the Quads, you are doing a good job, keep up the good work :) :).

The J and E discern more differences in the recordings across the recordings I have used - who says the 703 is upfront -- bright maybe, but upfront? Though I did not get bright from them - lack of cohesion that makes the ear focus on the tweeter yes but the actual treble response is no worse than most metal tweeters with their artificial and wholly audible ringing - but B&W advertises at great length how each of their new models fixes their old models in the ringing department - which means they always admit their tweeters ring like a dinner bell and how they try to "fix it" and of course the fix is always YOU the buyer needing to pay more and more to get a half decent treble.

This poster is yet another one to add to the B&W's are overpriced and incredibly fatiguing in some manner or other and I made a big mistake getting them group. But at least he can admit it -- I can. If they are so great why don't you put your money where your mouth is sell the speakers you have and settle on the B&W N801 or N802?

If they were truly that good you'd buy them. Asking about getting rid of your Quads for another Quad is obvious -- you know they suck but you can't admit it. Your ego is paper thin.

[theaudiohobby]

Asking about getting rid of your Quads for another Quad is obvious -- you know they suck but you can't admit it. Your ego is paper thin.

Let's leave out the B&Ws for a minute.

The joke about the Quads is just about wearing thin, care to express your experience about the Quads at your dealer in detail? Following your story, sometime ago you listened to a pair of USED ESL-63s at your dealers, What was the setup? Did you ever consider that a pair of used ESL-63 might have ended up at the dealer because they were defective? When asked by LongtimeQuadowner to listen to the Quads at his place, why did you not take up the offer? He told you that he listened to the 20K AN-E at your dealer Soundhounds in all "Audio Note" super rig and came away preferring the Quads, cos they (the Quad's that is) were more open sounding and and as a result invited you on more one occasion to listen to the Quads at his place, you did not take up any of those offers yet you are content to bitterly criticize this selfsame pair of speakers that you have NEVER heard at every opportunity. You even have the audacity to make derogatory comments about other peoples opinion of this selfsame speaker that you have NEVER heard.

The same applies to the Genelec 8040 and the ELACs, as of this writing you have NEVER heard any of these speakers, yet you feel obliged at every opportunity to put your two pence worth of bitter criticism. A while back when someone asked after suitable Quad ESL alternatives, you recommended the AN-K saying it has the transparency of Quads and the dynamics of horns, how did you arrive at that opinion when you have NEVER heard the Quad ESL? The are many things I could use you to describe your behaviour and many of them are not complimentary, your behaviour sometimes borders on lunacy, I have yet to come across another person who is so desperate for validation and approval as you are and anytime you did not receive it, you seem to take leave temporary leave of your senses, describing you as a schizophrenic character is complimentary.

[Florian]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo


I agree with you Flo. :) :) , I wonder which dealer measures speakers that he sells so that he can cut them down at next opportunity or satisfy the known tire-kicker.

[StanleyMuso]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo
how some people, unless they are involved in the field professionaly, could possibly expose themselves to so much equipment? I have been interersted in audio since I was a child when I first tried to connect a small record player to my parents' ancient valve radio. I live in a small city and every hi-fi shop in the city now knows me. I have to restrain myself from visiting them too often out of pure ambarrasment. After all, I am not a wealthy man, and can only upgrade so often, so I don't want to impose myself on these hard working folk too much when I am only "tyre kicking". Usually, the time frame between when I first become interested in something and actually buying it is quite long, because I am a cautious fella and do a lot of consumer research, as well as auditioning. I can't help feeling guilty about wasting these good folks' time. As much as I would like to experience all that wonderful equipment around , I don't have the opportunity in terms of venues which stock them, and also time. That's why I appreciate so much the good advice from all the knowledgeable folk who are willing to share their experiences in these forums. Please keep it coming - I love to share your experiences even if I don't always agree with them. And believe me, your good advice has often opened my eyes.

[Jimmy C]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

...30 posts, but this touches on something I have thought about.

The word "experience". This is why I left that line in the profile blank... experience in what? Driving yourself to a store and listening to a stereo? In that case, I have almost 30 years! That word implies one has expertise in an area... err, we don't, really. O.K., maybe SOME of us do, maybe someone actually in the field, but I think the vast majority of us simply enjoy listening to music on a better than average stereo... that's all.

I feel lucky to have 10 or 15 "high-end" stores within a 40 mile radius. There's also NYC if one feels like fighting for a parking spot, or taking mass transit. No matter how many different brands I will ever hear, I would never make assumptions about how a particular piece CAN sound. This is only because I know a speaker, for eg., can sound WILDLY different at your house vs. the store demo. The good news is it usually sounds better at home.

And the terms "bright" and "detail"... they get misused as well. I'll save that for another time :^)

Rant over, thanks!

[RGA]

Let's leave out the B&Ws for a minute.

The joke about the Quads is just about wearing thin, care to express your experience about the Quads at your dealer in detail? Following your story, sometime ago you listened to a pair of USED ESL-63s at your dealers, What was the setup? Did you ever consider that a pair of used ESL-63 might have ended up at the dealer because they were defective? When asked by LongtimeQuadowner to listen to the Quads at his place, why did you not take up the offer? He told you that he listened to the 20K AN-E at your dealer Soundhounds in all "Audio Note" super rig and came away preferring the Quads, cos they (the Quad's that is) were more open sounding and and as a result invited you on more one occasion to listen to the Quads at his place, you did not take up any of those offers yet you are content to bitterly criticize this selfsame pair of speakers that you have NEVER heard at every opportunity. You even have the audacity to make derogatory comments about other peoples opinion of this selfsame speaker that you have NEVER heard.

The same applies to the Genelec 8040 and the ELACs, as of this writing you have NEVER heard any of these speakers, yet you feel obliged at every opportunity to put your two pence worth of bitter criticism. A while back when someone asked after suitable Quad ESL alternatives, you recommended the AN-K saying it has the transparency of Quads and the dynamics of horns, how did you arrive at that opinion when you have NEVER heard the Quad ESL? The are many things I could use you to describe your behaviour and many of them are not complimentary, your behaviour sometimes borders on lunacy, I have yet to come across another person who is so desperate for validation and approval as you are and anytime you did not receive it, you seem to take leave temporary leave of your senses, describing you as a schizophrenic character is complimentary.

I never said anything bad about the sound of either Elac or Genelec -- we were discussing measured response at that time and the measured response didn't impress me and I and others explained why -- that does not at all mean that I won;t like them if I heard them in person.

As for the ESl 63 I said that i would give them another try and I accepted longtimeQuadowners invite but he started making excuses about moving to a new place and that the system would not be as good as it could be - well most systesm are in rooms that are not perfect but a big part of a decent speaker is to sound good in less than ideal rooms and set-ups -- The AN E after all in blind listening sessions at Hi-fi choice is placed in BAD position in a room that is very poor for that speaker and it still outperformed much of the competition enough for them to buy them. So in a less than ideal set-up I expect and DEMAND that rooms not be held as an excuse for lousy sound. Commercial Electronics does nto sell used speakers that are defective - the equipment was SS (Bryston and Arcam was on the shelf). The room was roughly 19 X 17 with an open hall on one side - this is also where I heard proac's big floorstander several months later (which was vastly better).

I would gladly listen to Longtime quad owners 57 - but JNR had the 57 stacked for 30 years and went to the AN E with no regrets. The 57 I'm told has less bass than the 63 which already has very little -- so with regards to longtimequadonwer I would really like to have both speakers in the same room at the same time.

In fact if you would like to make a friendly wager we could run an independant preference based blind listening session with the Quad (any model) any amplifier versus just say AN J/Spe/OTO/3.1 one boxed player. If you're willing I may be able to get the services of 20 Professionally trained Jazz musicians to attend an all day listening session - two equal rooms of your choosing in one of the local hotels here. It would run about $500.00Cad to get the listeners - being students paying them $30.00 each to spend a day listening to tunes they may bite. An additional $100.00 for lunch for them. I'd certainly go in half on this. I would be willing to bet that no less that 80% would choose the AN set-up. With your engineering degree you surely could set-up the room and speakers better than me. I can only afford one hotel for one day so it would only give me a couple hours to set up the room -- you can have as much time as you need and I will allow you to use any room treatment or graphic EQ you wish - I get to use neither and can only earball the sound.

We will use the same music in both rooms that run the entire gambit classical to triphop dance etc. Listeners at the end of the day fill in the card as to which room they liked better and why. Both rooms systems will be darkened out so no one can see the gear and both rooms will be played to the same volume level based off a 1khz test tione at a distance of 6-8 feet - say 75db - 85. Simple. I can provide further details if I get some interest on your end. There is no way to PROVE a subjective experience but with professionally trained independant musicians it's sure more credible than OWNERS of the set-ups in question.

[Florian]

If you're willing I may be able to get the services of 20 Professionally trained Jazz musicians to attend an all day listening session - two equal rooms of your choosing in one of the local hotels here. It would run about $500.00Cad to get the listeners - being students paying them $30.00 each to spend a day listening to tunes they may bite. An additional $100.00 for lunch for them. I'd certainly go in half on this. I would be willing to bet that no less that 80% would choose the AN set-up.
I would accept that in a second if i were in the US or Canada. Run the Quads with a all Silvaweld setup and play life instruments from either MA Recordings or first pressings of the Matthaeus Passion from Phillips. I know the J and it wont stand a chance in acurate reproduction against the quad.

Just my humble opinion.

[RGA]

Confusion?

I have three main dealers I have purchased from - how is that tire kicking? Some dealers are willing to spend the time because they are interested in music reproduction -- Soundhounds is the only one I know of in BC. Commercial Electronics on Burrard street is probably the biggest dealer in Western Canada and is a two division shop catering to pros and consumers. Getting a Quad is relatively rare I should guuess and that is likely why it would be so interesting to check out. I knwo two Commercial Electronics people fairly well - they have a staff of about 50 or more. The salesman I knew well left and now runs his own shop and is a rare dealer that is out to make the customer happy and not sell you something unless he's sure you will like it. Rare indeed. And he left as their top selling B&O rep. he never had to lie -- he would tell the B&O buyer that it's not the best sounding but it looks good. (I overheard him)

The other fellow is the C.E. purchasing Agent so I also have some knowledge of how grossly overpriced certain things happen to be. As for panels they do sell Martin Logan. The ML Odyssey and Prodigy. (I purchased about $5k worth of gear from)

The other dealer, Hi-fi Center, I have purchased the 302, Senn 600, Arcam Delta 290 from off the top of my head. So no tire kicking there..

And Soundhounds most of the rest.

I also typically avoid weekends when I go so it's not like they're busy. Soundhounds is a 3.5 hour return trip for me so it expected that I will spend more than 10 minutes in there. I call or e-mail ahead of time. They treat customers the way all other dealers SHOULD treat them but often don't. hell when I go down there they are the ones who say you gotta try this or that and start lugging stuff around for me to listen to (and not just AN btw). And when you're moving around B&W 800 Diamonds and 70lb amps and Maggies then that's quite impressive compared to some dealers who grown about moving a Totem model 1.

My experience with gear is not as varied as some imply. I have not heard eveyr speaker from eveyr line. My largest listening experience line of that which I do not own is B&W and Paradigm when it comes to hours on them and model numbers from them heard...more so than my Wharfedales.

I have heard "certain" models from many others over the years with a great variation in set-up and time spent with them -- it usually does not take me long to figure out which side of the fence the speaker or system will fall for me. Where possible I will listen in the nearfield to alleviate room boundry issues and I won't concentrate a great deal at all on bass because that often requires more of the room. The AN K I took home despite its bass being a bit boomy in the showroom. A problem that is and can be a function of positioning room acoustics. Had it been any other dealer I would have been more distrustful but given the other's speakers far mroe serious problems which cannot ever be fixed by a room or positioning it was not hard.

When I go to Soundhounds I spend pretty much the entire day's operating hours there. They have customers who come a few days a week to talk try out new things and tweak whatever gadget they have and mostly to listen to some music. They were even generous enough to allow me to go with their sales staff and fly down to the CES in Vegas. Soundhounds has a lot of gear but they have also gotten rid of a lot of gear just over the last 5 years I have know that store -- they also bring in speakers for customers who are CURIOUS about the competition. For instance one customer like the AX two better than anything they carried but was curious about Epos -- Soundhounds bought the Epos to compare side by side for the customer knwoing how hard it is to hear the speakers in the SAME location in the same room with the same or complimentary gear. This epos purchase nullifies any profit he would get on the AX Two because he's now stuck with a one off speaker he has to sell as used. The thinking is that that customer may have more money one day and when one day comes they'll come back.

That is how I had gotten access to the Epos and after listening side by side -- Soundhounds won't be picking up Epos.

Other audiophile customers who don't post on the net are a great source of information as well.

I would like to comment on many others like the Klispch reference but I have only heard one model set-up well -- the rest are in a local London Drugs with terrible acoustics and terrible equipment running it side by side with all the other Klipsch and Jamo speakers. I avoid talking about such speakers as much as possible because all i can say is model A sounded better than B in this awful room with crap equipment so who cares? Model b could very well sound better than A in a normal decent room properly positiioned.

Dealer showrooms are generally well set-up. -- Soundhounds big open room is not condusive to optimal placement and both the AN E/Sec Silver and the B&W N801 (until they replaced it for the E/Sec) sounded very good. No corners, and the speaker no where near a wall is actually as bad a position as the E/Sec can possibly put in any room -- and yet it was mistaken for live music. The N801 this room would be ideal ten fett from any side wall - 5 feet from the back wall and at least 20 foot ceiling.

[RGA]

I would accept that in a second if i were in the US or Canada. Run the Quads with a all Silvaweld setup and play life instruments from either MA Recordings or first pressings of the Matthaeus Passion from Phillips. I know the J and it wont stand a chance in acurate reproduction against the quad.

Just my humble opinion.

Ahh it's the j last time you said the K so now we're just picking and choosing what you've heard. Anyway, this is for all kinds of recordings not one that happens to sound decent on one kind of speaker -- good speakers perform across the gambit -- that inludes heavey rock at reasonable decibal levels to get the juices going -- therefore Aerosmith's Pump or something like Rage Against the Machine will be used. I have no problem with any choice in classical or Jazz -- both set-ups will play the same music but good speakers don't fall apart because it's not getting an acoustic instrument. Though I am happy with any acoustic instrument especially piano. And drums, or tympanni or double bass etc I would certainly be excited to use.

[theaudiohobby]

Ahh it's the j last time you said the K so now we're just picking and choosing what you've heard.

Before you get overexcited, I said I OWNED the AN-Ks not Florian.

[Florian]

Before you get overexcited, I said I OWNED the AN-Ks not Florian.
Thank you! At least someone read it and remembers.

Cheers

Flo

PS: I am not here to argue RGA, just that i would accept that offer in a second. Even against the E

[theaudiohobby]

I never said anything bad about the sound of either Elac or Genelec -- we were discussing measured response at that time and the measured response didn't impress me and I and others explained why -- that does not at all mean that I won;t like them if I heard them in person.

As for the ESl 63 I said that i would give them another try and I accepted longtimeQuadowners invite but he started making excuses -- SNIP

I would gladly listen to Longtime quad owners 57 - but JNR had the 57 stacked for 30 years and went to the AN E with no regrets. The 57 I'm told has less bass than the 63 which already has very little -- so with regards to longtimequadonwer I would really like to have both speakers in the same room at the same time.

In fact if you would like to make a friendly wager -SNIP.

First off, The wager is pointless as the logistics are totally off, I live in London, UK and you live British Columbia, Canada. It is not going happen.

It tickles me when you talk about measurements, why? Because you have demonstrated and time and again that you do not understand how to read them, the most glaring howler being your inability to tell an in-room corrected FR plot from an aneichoic one. Also Audio Note hardly has any speaker measurements published anywhere, so you commenting on any speaker based on measurements is a bit of a joke. I will spare your blushes and not pull your old posts, but most of your remarks about the ELACs were not based on any measurements whatsoever.

On Jnr, he did NOT own a pair of stacked Quads for 30 years. Neither does he give any details of his system when he owned them as the stacked Quads were long gone by the Audio Notes arrived, and in the intervening period he tried several other speakers. Moreso, from his own account (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=124418&review=1) he did not get optimal sound out of the ESLs either. Even so, He got rid of the stacked Quads when got married due to space limitations not poor sound quality.
Thirty-one years of trying to fine a satisfying speaker The first speakers I owned were stacked Advents then I heard a pair of quad 57s and I had to have them. So for a few years I tried to fine something better that would also give me volume and bass. I purchased a second pair and stacked them. I tried without success to add a sub.

Then I got married and we moved and there was no place for the monoliths so I begin down the line of mini monitors.I tried Spenders, Rogers, Clestions, Spicas, and some others that I don?t remember

The except above clearly reveals that you have grossly misinterpreted Jnr's comments, However, the cruz of matter is the still that you persistly make comments on speakers that you have NOT heard. Needless to say your experience with Quads is very limited, so please refrain from commenting on them. And as a matter of courtesy, try to be more measured in comments about speakers you have not personally heard.

By the way I thought I will point in you in direction of some of JNR recent comments (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/218652.html) on CDPs

I own a sony 777es with the VSEI levan 4.5 mod and most of the Kern mods. For over a year I listen to Audio Note Dacs four or five days a week. If you are asking about one of the players I would pass, though I have not heard the new player, I don't think it is out yet. Starting with the 2 balanced dac on up(if you use their best transport) there is something about the ANs that certain people fall in love with and love above all other digital. Personaly I like SACDs better and am thank with the VSEI mods they better the AN DACs but I have good friends who would dissagree with me. Guess the name of one of my current SACDPs..,While at it, check out my amplifier. Forget the wager, the logistics are unrealistic, I wonder why you suggested it :confused: , but note that there is more than one way to good sound.

Your comments about showroom listening I will bite another day...

[RGA]

Yes my saleguy at Soundhounds never got his panels (quads and maggie 20's) working right either and the main reason they dumped Martin Logan is that they kept getting returned. Seems nobody sets them up right or can which is why longtimequad owner won't let me listen.

The anechoic measurement means next to nothing - what matters is the in room measurement at the listening position. It makes sense to use a 1 meter anechoic measurement because they more or less control the variable - but it is totally useless in practical terms when purchasing the speaker - we don't listen in anechoic chambers with test tones. We lsiten to music usually at distances of an equalateral triangle or further back and that is where it ought to be measured.

Audiophile magazine has a full frequency response measurement with a full waterfall plot time domain and distortion inforrmation on axis and off axis - 2002 it was done on the E. Hi-fi Choice describes the measurements in enough detail to be useful. Peter Q claimed on the kits forum that the speaker is -6db at 75degrees off axis. All you would have to do is phone up an AN dealer and they will bring the E to your house -- you can then perform all the measurements yourself.

Stereophile reviewer Peter Van Wellinsword(sp?) owns the old basic E so perhaps in some back issue the measurements may have been done there (I am not a Stereophile subscriber so I do not know) - or even the Snell models.

My notes on Elac were from reviews -- you posted a negative quote on the AN E (despite being given an award from them and despite being their reference tool) so I in turn pointed out several of their comments on the Elac speaker - they claimed the speaker was cold and analytical and not very musical.

Florian way back said the speaker he heard was the K and then has changed that to the J over the last several arguments. I like the K more than you TAH but quite frankly I did move on from them. Your entire knowledge of audio note rests on a copper wired version of the AN K being run on a non AN system (and I asked you at the time of owning them for the serial numbers and you refused to provide the information). I first heard AN on their equipment - and it makes a difference even if you're in the all amps sound the same camp. At a recent shootout I can point to five people who after hearing the K/SPE would call the speaker bright leaning (being driven wih Oddysey) and nobody would call them treble deficient. The K/L you apparently had is not a speaker I have owned nor is it one that I have heard from Audio Note so I don't know what it sounds like. The J/L is more subdued than the J/Spe and didn't have the resolution in the treble. The AN K is a significant step down from the J or E. Considering the internal volume jumps three times, an entirely different tweeter from an entirely different company is used, an entirely different woofer from a different company and a different surround material is used and being ported as opposed to being sealed I don;t really think you have any worthwhile comment to make on this company.

The England Canada issue is a $500.00 return flight - if I lose I'd pay that. Unfortunately, such a challenge is a waste of time because unless I get 100% of the listeners I still lose. if just one person chooses the other system then that means the argument could be made that well see that one person had better hearing or is a true golden ear. And if I win people will say big deal you beat an old no longer made speaker.

Hi-fi Center in Vancouver is an off-shoot of Soundhounds so perhaps I can get something going between Quads NEW top of the line panel and the AN E/LX. These owners know eachother quie well having worked together for years.

As for JNR - you are quite welcome to read anything the way you wish to as you often do. Well I'm gone from here for a while so to the original poster I would suggest listening for yourself and good luck with whatever you buy. Trusting magazines and posters like TAH and the end result will be owning speakers like the B&W 703 - and your ears are more than capable of realizing who NOT to take the word of when shopping.

[theaudiohobby]

The bottom line remains, you made extensive comments about speakers you have not listened to.Your comments about the Quads were over the top and you yet have never heard them. As for JNR, you misinterpreted his post. Next time, if you have not heard a speaker, keep quiet. Your comments about anechoic measurements simply demonstrate your ignorance about measurements in general, we do not listen in anechoic chambers but room contribution can be predicted and derived from the aneichoic measurements, hence their importance. By the way, I am not the one trashing every speaker under the sun.

Exit the thread and cover your face in shame :p , you have been making grandiose statements about a speaker you have never heard, You misconstrued a review, a regular occurence with you, which is a pity, considering that you have a BA in English!

[gonefishin]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.

,,,
Dan

[gonefishin]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.


,,,
dan

[gonefishin]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.


,,,
dan

[theaudiohobby]

Dan what are you trying to say?

[gonefishin]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.





Any luck BillyB?


Whatcha thinking?


I could understand if you have a reluctance to order speakers that are only available on-line....or site unheard. But there are some nice "smaller" brands that are good performers. But they could be sooo hard to find for an audition. BUT. But if you do some searches...you could sometimes find an audio board that has a number f members with that said speaker. Of this group...there may be someone that lives in your area that would be more than happy to give you an audition.

So don't discount some of the smaller brands...or internet only brands right away.



What brands do you have in the audio shops near you. Also, as was mentioned before...there could always be some used proacs in your future :)

happy travels,

dan



;)

[gonefishin]

Any other B&W 703 owners out there? In my system they have been a huge disappointment. I find them to be very bright and edgy. The FST midrange seems to be too out front especially on vocals.I actually like the woofers and tweeter in the 703.The FST is one of B&W's claims to fame.I have mid priced Rotel components.Are the 703's simply too good for my equipment, or did B&W design a speaker with way too much top end.I listen to raggy rock and pop CD's at a fairly high volume which doesn't help, but my previous speakers were much more forgiving without the listener fatigue I get with the 703's.If you own them I'd love to hear what you think of them. Even though I paid almost $3000 for them, I'd be lying If I said they were a good purchase.Ironically I almost bought the much more laid back 9nt's the 703 replaced. I should have paid much closer attention to the differences between the two.





Dan what are you trying to say?


I'm trying to say...don't ya wish we all had the opportunity to listen and try every speaker we would want.

Audio forums such as this can put you in contact with not only others in your area with similar intrest. But some also may have audio clubs in your area. Where you not only get exposer to new (and different) components...but many times visits, seminars or demonstrations by industry professionals.

It may help...it may not...but there's a good chance it may be fun as well :D


dan

[RGA]

The bottom line remains, you made extensive comments about speakers you have not listened to.Your comments about the Quads were over the top and you yet have never heard them. As for JNR, you misinterpreted his post. Next time, if you have not heard a speaker, keep quiet. Your comments about anechoic measurements simply demonstrate your ignorance about measurements in general, we do not listen in anechoic chambers but room contribution can be predicted and derived from the aneichoic measurements, hence their importance. By the way, I am not the one trashing every speaker under the sun.

Exit the thread and cover your face in shame :p , you have been making grandiose statements about a speaker you have never heard, You misconstrued a review, a regular occurence with you, which is a pity, considering that you have a BA in English!

What the hell are you talking about - I HAVE heard the Quad 63. Misconstrued what review? - JNR's?, Hi Fi choice? The review from Hi-fi Choice on Elac is stated right there. FACT JNR bought the Audio Note E/SE and bottom line is that this IS the speaker of his choice and IS the speaker he owns as of today's date as i just replied to him. Your dancing around the fact anywhich way you can - cannot deny that fact. Not that his choice is gospel as I'd probably be in the "group that disagrrees with him" on the cd replay since I have directly heard both the 777ES and the SCD1 and at that time the system was set-up by Sony themselves to demonstrate how wonderful the technology was (at Commercial Electronics where they know more about system set-up than some hack on a forum ever would). But he is hardly the only one -- I know of a number of people who've had panels and now own AN speakers - but then it's not terribly surprising i just find out when all the panels pour into Soundhounds used section that yes they traded them in for AN.

Ohh and the 802D you love so much came out pretty lousy in the Stereophile measurements section -- upper mid problem treble concern and a hint at brightness. Gee what a surprise that i said the same thing several months ago and you go one a tirade that it was the amps fault. Stereophile is very good at covering for the problems (after all without their advertising the rag would be out of business) so they say to make sue the room is dead blah blah blah. Always an excuse for their speakers.

And I'm still waiting for you to put your money behind the B&W logo -- trade all your speakers in and get one. Why? Not good enough for you to own right? Recommend what YOU would personally stand behind.

I don't care if you like Quad -- I get why people like it - it imprints a certain presentation on recordings that some will find holographioc. I personally just find it hollow.

[Florian]

Lets all buy Audio Note speakers and praise them till we die so we can trash this idiotic advertising non-fact based thread once and for all. Moderator? Please send this thread down the drain.

[Cincy2]

BillyB,

I have owned three pairs of B&W speakers culminating in my current 800D's. Two things to remember. These speakers all take a long time to break in. You didn't say how long you have had them cooking. Second, if you find their upper end harsh, consider changing speaker cables. I have always used Transparent cables with mine and find the combination works very well. If you still don't like the sound.....www.Audiogon.com.

[theaudiohobby]

What the hell are you talking about - I HAVE heard the Quad 63. Misconstrued what review? - JNR's?, Hi Fi choice? The review from Hi-fi Choice on Elac is stated right there. FACT JNR bought the Audio Note E/SE and bottom line is that this IS the speaker of his choice and IS the speaker he owns as of today's date as i just replied to him. Your dancing around the fact anywhich way you can - cannot deny that fact. Not that his choice is gospel as I'd probably be in the "group that disagrrees with him" on the cd replay since I have directly heard both the 777ES and the SCD1 and at that time the system was set-up by Sony themselves to demonstrate how wonderful the technology was (at Commercial Electronics where they know more about system set-up than some hack on a forum ever would). But he is hardly the only one -- I know of a number of people who've had panels and now own AN speakers - but then it's not terribly surprising i just find out when all the panels pour into Soundhounds used section that yes they traded them in for AN.

Ohh and the 802D you love so much came out pretty lousy in the Stereophile measurements section -- upper mid problem treble concern and a hint at brightness. Gee what a surprise that i said the same thing several months ago and you go one a tirade that it was the amps fault. Stereophile is very good at covering for the problems (after all without their advertising the rag would be out of business) so they say to make sue the room is dead blah blah blah. Always an excuse for their speakers.

And I'm still waiting for you to put your money behind the B&W logo -- trade all your speakers in and get one. Why? Not good enough for you to own right? Recommend what YOU would personally stand behind.

I don't care if you like Quad -- I get why people like it - it imprints a certain presentation on recordings that some will find holographioc. I personally just find it hollow.

Big yawn, you are indeed a schizophrenic character..I see that beginnig to take temporary leave of your senses again. Before you misconstrue another post, read JNR's post more carefully.., he was talking about VSE modified SACDP, Have you heard one? I thought so. By the way, I own an SCD1 and VSE L5 modified DVP9000ES, so I know the differences but you meanwhile are out of your depth. You have neither heard the ELAC, the Genelec 8040 or the ESL 57, and sole listening experience with a used ESL 63 and then only in a store audition. Frankly I do not care whether some folks who owned panels, now own ANs, there are a variety of reasons why folks change speakers, in JNR case, he sold the stacked Quad because of space limitations. So far, all I can see from you are desperate attempts to escape from the cage you hemmed yourself in.

As for the Stereophile review, try to build another mountain out of molehill again...read more carefully, it says that it may sound bright in an undamped room.

PS: Follow your own advice, ignore the press and listen for yourself.

[Florian]

Hey there TAH (whats your real name anyway?),

your level 5 modded 9000ES is from Vacuumstate Electronics right? I know Allen personally, and had his realtime pre amp and power amps here and they are out of this world. Him and his engineer both own Apogee Scintillas. When your in Switzerland let me know and we can do a session alltogether.

Cheers

Flo

[lomarica]

Just another thought Topspeed.Many years ago a highly regarded audio shop owner told me that the better speakers(under $4000) were usually 2-way in design and quite often the smaller stand size speaker.I was a novice and didn't think a smaller speaker with less drivers would be adequate.He persuaded me to buy a pair of Proac 2-way stand speakers with Rotel components.The Proacs were simply great speakers even to my untrained ear.His argument was that 2-way speakers in this price range were usually better then a larger 3-way speaker.The speakers would have better quality drivers and a 2 way(or 21/2) arrangement would produce a better overall sound then a comparibly priced 3 way.These Proacs at $1300 seemed to echo that.They were incredible, even putting out exceptional bass for a small speaker.Proac's approach is to use less drivers but achieve great sound with higher quality drivers,crossovers,cabinet design,etc.If I decide to replace my 703's, I was thinking of downsizing to a high quality 2-way again.I miss the Proacs. What is your opinion about speaker choices under $3000.Do you agree that you get better quality sound out of a high end 2-way than a bigger 3-way with more drivers.I'm not a huge bass fan so the dropoff in bass with smaller speakers doesn't phase me.I know this isn't a simple question but I'd like to get your opinion.Thanks


I recently replaced my large 4 driver floor speakers for small 2 driver shelf speakers and am very pleased. I won't even mention the speaker (I did stay with the same brand) because the post will degrade into too much detailed speaker comparisons, But the two way have much better imaging and they just disappear in the room which I like. In fact one night watching a movie I forgot to turn my center channel on and it took me a long time to notice because the sound from the left and right front speakers was imaging so good.

[RGA]

he was talking about VSE modified SACDP, Have you heard one? I thought so.

And he also said his friends would disagree. You are correct I have not heard it. Which makes my blind challenge to you more interesting -- as I said you could use ANY source you wish.



By the way, I own an SCD1 and VSE L5 modified DVP9000ES, so I know the differences but you meanwhile are out of your depth.

Irrifutably prove what those differences are.



You have neither heard the ELAC, the Genelec 8040 or the ESL 57,

Never claimed to - you have never heard the AN E or the J or the K/Spe. Yoou spent pages blasting Audio Note before EVER hearing anything from them -- so please Mr. Pot stop calling me black.



and sole listening experience with a used ESL 63 and then only in a store audition.

And everyone who knows everything about Quad tells me this is the one with the most bass from that period - my comment on the 57 was gee it must have less bass. Store audition? What does that have to do with anything -- it's STILL a room - why do you assume all homes are better than all professionally treated store showrooms? That's odd.



Frankly I do not care whether some folks who owned panels, now own ANs, there are a variety of reasons why folks change speakers, in JNR case, he sold the stacked Quad because of space limitations. So far, all I can see from you are desperate attempts to escape from the cage you hemmed yourself in.

So why would he buy lousy replacements - that's what you attempt to imply. The speaker is not built to operate in normal rooms so yes space and positioning is always used as an excuse. Call me in a year when you've moved on from your Elac - oops already did then Genelic oops again and now the old Quads - what a surprise that you're interested in gadgetry than music reproduction - but that's your business.



As for the Stereophile review, try to build another mountain out of molehill again...read more carefully, it says that it may sound bright in an undamped room.

Ohh but that was Atkinson covering by ASSUMING they'd be better in a damped room. See he does that an aweful lot -- when a big advertiser's speaker measures crappily he says "they would be better in a damped room - of course why does he not measure them in a damped room to make sure? N'ah. And then when it's a product that does not pay hundreds of thousands per year in ad space then it's the speaker's fault for the lesser measurement.

I did not read the review -- From what I and others heard of the new diamonds -- bright is a certainty - I suppose if you put lots of drapes on all the walls and have all the walls and ceilings covered wall to wall in acoustic foam and and double up your carpets and throw blankets over the stereo and your head and then wear ear muffs you would reduce the brightness somewhat.

[Florian]

Why dont you make a blind listening test offer that is doable?

[theaudiohobby]

Why dont you make a blind listening test offer that is doable?

Thanks for chiming in with some common sense :D

[RGA]

I may not do the test against the Quad 63 because they are no longer made and that would require speakers being lugged around the world.

Though I may be able to a similar test with the Maggie 3.6 now that Soundhounds carries both lines. the subjective approach would be to start in January 2006 till the end of 2006 and see how many Maggies sold versus how many AN speakers of the same price sold. Or to have listeners - even if not buying - to see which they would prefer buying if they had the money -- If I ran a store I would carry Magnepan because I like what they do. I'd far rather put the AN up against speakers I think are overpriced junk like the B&W's than put them up against speaker I like like the Maggies.

I can at least see and totally understand why a consumer would want to listen to and purchase a Magnapan loudspeaker -- the 700 series from B&W is another matter.

[Florian]

the subjective approach would be to start in January 2006 till the end of 2006 and see how many Maggies sold versus how many AN speakers of the same price sold This would be idiotic since some people are like you and prefer a resonating, colored boomy box that sounds the same no matter where you place it in the room.

Damn and i promised myself i wouldnt say it. Ok never mind, i will be quiet now.

[BillyB]

BillyB,

I have owned three pairs of B&W speakers culminating in my current 800D's. Two things to remember. These speakers all take a long time to break in. You didn't say how long you have had them cooking. Second, if you find their upper end harsh, consider changing speaker cables. I have always used Transparent cables with mine and find the combination works very well. If you still don't like the sound.....www.Audiogon.com.
One of the first things I tried to improve sound was upgrade my speaker wire.I purchased 4 conductor solid core wire in order to bi-wire the speakers.My local audio dealer suggested the brand(don't remember which one it is).He knew I was unhappy with the 703's and felt it might help.I was surprised it wasn't stranded wire.Was a solid core cable the right call?It didn't correct my complaints with the sound.I then upgraded to different interconnects from the same dealer.He sold me cables which they specifically try when brightness is a symptom.(again I don't know brand so I know you can't help me here). I noticed only a slight improvement in sound from the interconnect change.My speakers are two years old.While I don't use them much because I don't enjoy listening to them,I would think 2 years of even moderate use is a sufficient brake-in period.I'd like to point out that my sound complaints aren't subtle, these 703's are brutal in my system.Thanks for the reply.

[theaudiohobby]

First off, your logistics of your wager are daft, I live in London, UK and you like British Colombia, Canada. Come up with something that is financially and logistically viable..

As for the VSE modified SACDP, you have not heard it, so shut up you have nothing to offer.

As for the Audio Note speakers, most of my comments have been on the AN-K which I bought and auditioned in my system. You on the hand cannot say that of any the speaker that you have critiqued. To refresh your memory, I have pulled one the old threads (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=165184&highlight="audio+note"+Editors+choice&r=&session=), where we discussed the E, so that you can get your facts right.

If have never heard the ESL-57, what business do you have criticizing its sound. :confused: You are ignorant about the Quads, the ESL 989 is the largest, and you auditioned a used ESL-63, of no known provinance, long after it had been updated with the ESL 988. It is a store audition of a speaker you are not familiar with, so you are hardly expected to know how to optimise the sound and it is clear from posts that your listening session with them was not extensive by any means, and from your comments (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=191862&highlight=Quad+63+RGA&r=&session=) you said you were not sure the ESL-63s that you heard were in good working condition. Looking at your post, you have changed your tune, so that you can spue some your spite.

By the way, I did not critique the Audio Notes, I recommended that BillyB should listen to them and still do, since I recall that they have a less upfront sound and are not bright. You on the other hand, used JNR acquisition of AN E/Se? as an excuse to bitterly critique the Quad ESL-57 which you have never heard.

As for moving on from speakers, your idiocy betrays you again, You have moved on from the AN Ks to the AN-J, in your wager you propose do listening test with an AN-E, which presumes that you will gladly have it, if given the opportunity. Wrt to the ELACs and the Genelecs, are you privy to what happened to any of the pieces of gear in my system, your comments are both presumptuous and idiotic.


what a surprise that you're interested in gadgetry than music reproduction - but that's your business. This from someone who goes around audio stores, listening to pieces of equipment that he is not least interested in buying. Hello! wake and smell the roses!

I note that you said that you did not read the Stereophile B&W802D review, yet you referenced it in your post : :eek: ,How typical.

[BillyB]

I recently replaced my large 4 driver floor speakers for small 2 driver shelf speakers and am very pleased. I won't even mention the speaker (I did stay with the same brand) because the post will degrade into too much detailed speaker comparisons, But the two way have much better imaging and they just disappear in the room which I like. In fact one night watching a movie I forgot to turn my center channel on and it took me a long time to notice because the sound from the left and right front speakers was imaging so good.
I'm glad you're enjoying them.Good sound is all that matters.I also happen to love the look of a nice 2-way monitor on real nice stands.

[theaudiohobby]

One of the first things I tried to improve sound was upgrade my speaker wire.I purchased 4 conductor solid core wire in order to bi-wire the speakers.My local audio dealer suggested the brand(don't remember which one it is).He knew I was unhappy with the 703's and felt it might help.I was surprised it wasn't stranded wire.Was a solid core cable the right call?It didn't correct my complaints with the sound.I then upgraded to different interconnects from the same dealer.He sold me cables which they specifically try when brightness is a symptom.(again I don't know brand so I know you can't help me here). I noticed only a slight improvement in sound from the interconnect change.My speakers are two years old.While I don't use them much because I don't enjoy listening to them,I would think 2 years of even moderate use is a sufficient brake-in period.I'd like to point out that my sound complaints aren't subtle, these 703's are brutal in my system.Thanks for the reply.

Hi Billy B,

Life is too short to hold on to a speaker you do not like, I have been there before, it is an unfortunate reality that auditioning a speaker in a store is no guarantee that you will like them longterm, this is especially true if you auditioned them with inappropriate material, material that glossed over there flaws, a mistake many folks make. My suggestion is to make it down as experience, listen to some speakers that are not as upfront or as bright as the 703 such as Spendor, etc, or simply take the easy way out and go back and get the Proacs that you liked.

[StanleyMuso]

One of the first things I tried to improve sound was upgrade my speaker wire.I purchased 4 conductor solid core wire in order to bi-wire the speakers.My local audio dealer suggested the brand(don't remember which one it is).He knew I was unhappy with the 703's and felt it might help.I was surprised it wasn't stranded wire.Was a solid core cable the right call?It didn't correct my complaints with the sound.I then upgraded to different interconnects from the same dealer.He sold me cables which they specifically try when brightness is a symptom.(again I don't know brand so I know you can't help me here). I noticed only a slight improvement in sound from the interconnect change.My speakers are two years old.While I don't use them much because I don't enjoy listening to them,I would think 2 years of even moderate use is a sufficient brake-in period.I'd like to point out that my sound complaints aren't subtle, these 703's are brutal in my system.Thanks for the reply.

original question to so much mud slinging. I'm sorry you've had no joy in taming the 703s. I played around with my system over the weekend and played all types of music at all volume settings, and although I admit its still not the perfect speaker, I'm just not replicating what you described. Perhaps I was lucky, perhap the company fixed up the problems, as one poster suggested, by the time I bought mine - after all, there is a years difference between mine and yours. On the other hand, perhaps its just the differences in our rooms. I moved the speaker a little further from the walls yesterday, and I think the overall sound improved even further. As an experiment, do you have the ability to temporarily move your system into a different room to find out if it is a room specific problem? Otherwise, since you are so unhappy with it, I guess there's no alternative but to replace them. I wish you luck.

[BillyB]

Hi Billy B,

Life is too short to hold on to a speaker you do not like, I have been there before, it is an unfortunate reality that auditioning a speaker in a store is no guarantee that you will like them longterm, this is especially true if you auditioned them with inappropriate material, material that glossed over there flaws, a mistake many folks make. My suggestion is to make it down as experience, listen to some speakers that are not as upfront or as bright as the 703 such as Spendor, etc, or simply take the easy way out and go back and get the Proacs that you liked.
You're probably right.I haven't enjoyed my system in 2 years and It bothers me to no end!!I don't even feel like firing it up.Every listening session becomes a demo as I end up analyzing the sound instead of enjoying the music.I'm going to straighten it out if it kills me!

[BillyB]

Your question is valid as I am unable to move these speakers more than 6" off the wall due to room constaints. That very well could be at least some of the problem. My listening room is really the only place I can comfortably use my stereo, so I don't know if moving the whole set-up is worth the trouble.I do have a finished playroom in my basement which of course my kids have taken over.The room is 16'long X 10'deep with under 7' sheetrock ceiling and paneling on the walls.Again the big floorstanders would have to be close to the wall or they'd get trashed by my kids.Anyway I'm glad you're able to enjoy the 703's in your system.Thanks for the reply.

[Florian]

Dont worry you have not started a war. People are catching onto what i have been saying for ages and that is that RGA is full of it on most post. A simple advertiser who will cut down any and all speakers that someone likes while posting half backed reviews and opinions he collects aroun the internet and if he cant find anything negative he makes up some bull**** story noone can check and he cant prove it either. I am glad that more people are catching on.

[Florian]

You're probably right.I haven't enjoyed my system in 2 years and It bothers me to no end!!I don't even feel like firing it up.Every listening session becomes a demo as I end up analyzing the sound instead of enjoying the music.I'm going to straighten it out if it kills me! Yup go back to the Proacs or listen to more speakers. I personally cant stand B&W either, maybe give a different kind of speaker a try?

[StanleyMuso]

Yup go back to the Proacs or listen to more speakers. I personally cant stand B&W either, maybe give a different kind of speaker a try?
I'm beginning to feel like such an outcast.;)


Actually, knowing my track record for finding new gear, which can last a couple of years for speakers, I might already start preliminary looking around. What goes well with a Musical Fidelity amp for a person who likes classics and jazz?

[Florian]

Well the choice for you is obvious in my opinion. Get a Magnepan MG1.6 or a MG12 depending on the size of your room. www.magnepan.com and once you have them and lived with them for a few years let me know and we can move up the box-less realm. :-)
You can ask me all the questions you want when it comes to the lack of the box.

[Cincy2]

BillyB,

Tranparent speaker cables have an inline "network" of passive components designed to reduce noise and match impedences. They can also tame unruly treble. The price for an 8foot pair can range from affordable all the way up to $30,000 for their signature product. Try to pick up a good pair used. I am fairly certain they will help your situation.

[StanleyMuso]

Well the choice for you is obvious in my opinion. Get a Magnepan MG1.6 or a MG12 depending on the size of your room. www.magnepan.com (http://www.magnepan.com/) and once you have them and lived with them for a few years let me know and we can move up the box-less realm. :-)
You can ask me all the questions you want when it comes to the lack of the box.
I have been aware of the advantages (and disadvantages) of electrostatics for years and been tempted on and off a number of times. Indeed, about 25 years ago I owned a set of electrostatic headphones and enjoyed them very much until they went missing. From memory however, they were severely lacking in the bass department and were not comfortable to wear. They were also inconvenient in that they had to be permanently connected to the speaker connection of the amp by way of a special box, so could not be used with other equipment. They were replaced by Senheissers.

As far as electrostatic speakers go, I could never afford them, and did not have the room to accomodate them. The ones I listened to in a local show room (sorry, I don't remember the model), were absolutely huge and hugely expensive - in fact I could have bought a couple of cars for the asking price. I suffer the usual constraints of a family man whose money goes on home and family. Perhaps one day, when they are all grown up and off my hands I might give it a go. But until then, I am constrained to box speakers of about a metre or so in height. For the present, my wife would be most upset if I tried to introduce what she calls "room dividers" into our lounge. Perhaps when my son leaves and takes his pool table with him, I might have the room. I don't know if electrostatics would give me the perfect sound, but all I can say that in all the years I have been involved in this hobby, I have a certain sound in my head which I want to achieve, and have never had the good fortune to find it. By the by, I used to play violin in an ensemble, my wife plays piano, and my children have played clarinet, piano, violin and cello. I attend concerts, classical, jazz and pop all the time, in many venues with different accoustic properties, so know what live sound is. It is very rarely that I can sit back, close my eyes and listen to the recorded concert and think that I am there. That state of realism would be the ideal, but I just don't believe it is achievable. Perhaps it can come close, but I doubt if the recorded sound will ever be totally realistic.

Sorry about the ramble.

[Florian]

Well there is hope in the future. I have a few friends who are married to musicians and have speakers that come extremely close to real. Brads girlfriend plays on a 4 million dollar stradivarius violin in switzerland, Josephs wife is Della Manley sings wonderfully and has a few CD's, Vince's family plays in an orchestra, Trygve Lode's makes movie soundtracks and film clips and there are countless more and they all have one thing in common...PM me for the answere.

-Flo

[pdmonty1965]

I used to like B&W but the 700 series IMO is garbage. Whatever the reviews I have listened to this line several times at several locations and with quality gear. My front runner was B&W as i used to own a pair but my dealer www.soundhounds.com (http://www.soundhounds.com) intrioduced me to stuff they sell but also buy for their own homes. B&W's 700 series is so truly bad IME, and following up ont he equally bad CM series that it is really really difficult for me not to compare them to Bose for the affluent. The 705 at $2300.00Cad is a bad speaker IMO and what's worse it's not jsut overpriced it is a good $1700.00 overpriced. At $500.00Cad it would STILL be unremarkable. Bright is the least of the problems.

.....IMO yours is WRONG!

1st - As some in here have correctly inferred any system is only as good as it's weakest link. Example: you can't go out and by a $3000 pair of high end speakers that are "renowned" for their ability to reveal the best or the worst in source material and then pair them with ancient or inferior source components/materials and expect good results! If you've auditioned the 703's and fell in love with them in the store as I did, then that same sound is in fact reproducible in your home assuming you have at your disposal similar or identical equipment, room treatments/geometry etc....period. There's no magical slight of hand going on here...no deception on the part of the sales people.

2nd - if you have assembled a system over the course of "years" chances are you have grown accustomed to the unique sonic signature and it has served mould / bias your sound preferences. Everyone is different...what you call a warm sound, I call muddy...what you call a harsh sound I call revealing. Bottom line is, if you are going to go and buy any new component and add it to your existing system, particularly if your system is fairly old then you'd better be pre-paired to shell out extra $$$ to upgrade your source components and source material as well because technology keeps on rolling and sound evolves because of it. B&W knows this and subsequently are ahead of the curve. IMHO the 703's are an amazing speaker and probably B&W's best price to performance offering...EVER.

[Feanor]

.....IMO yours is WRONG!

1st - As some in here have correctly inferred any system is only as good as it's weakest link. Example: you can't go out and by a $3000 pair of high end speakers that are "renowned" for their ability to reveal the best or the worst in source material and then pair them with ancient or inferior source components/materials and expect good results! If you've auditioned the 703's and fell in love with them in the store as I did, then that same sound is in fact reproducible in your home assuming you have at your disposal similar or identical equipment, room treatments/geometry etc....period. There's no magical slight of hand going on here...no deception on the part of the sales people.

2nd - if you have assembled a system over the course of "years" chances are you have grown accustomed to the unique sonic signature and it has served mould / bias your sound preferences. Everyone is different...what you call a warm sound, I call muddy...what you call a harsh sound I call revealing. Bottom line is, if you are going to go and buy any new component and add it to your existing system, particularly if your system is fairly old then you'd better be pre-paired to shell out extra $$$ to upgrade your source components and source material as well because technology keeps on rolling and sound evolves because of it. B&W knows this and subsequently are ahead of the curve. IMHO the 703's are an amazing speaker and probably B&W's best price to performance offering...EVER.

Hi, pdmonty, and welcome to AR Forums.

I tend to agree that a system is only as good as it's weakest link, but you aren't going to get a rise out of RGA. He bailed from ARF a few years ago in a fit of peak because he was scolded for for a hyperbolic political opinion.

[JohnMichael]

Hi, pdmonty, and welcome to AR Forums.

I tend to agree that a system is only as good as it's weakest link, but you aren't going to get a rise out of RGA. He bailed from ARF a few years ago in a fit of peak because he was scolded for for a hyperbolic political opinion.



Ah yes I remember it well.

[pdmonty1965]

Hi, pdmonty, and welcome to AR Forums.

I tend to agree that a system is only as good as it's weakest link, but you aren't going to get a rise out of RGA. He bailed from ARF a few years ago in a fit of peak because he was scolded for for a hyperbolic political opinion.

Thanks for the greeting. I wasn't trying to get rise as much as I was venting a little in defense my beloved speakers. It irritates me when people throw out negative opinions without due diligence. I believe that most us here want to engage in a civil and educational exchange of information. It's sad that some only serve to foster dissent and negativity. Thanks to all of you belonging to group A. I'm learning a lot!

[Jack in Wilmington]

Thanks for the greeting. I wasn't trying to get rise as much as I was venting a little in defense my beloved speakers. It irritates me when people throw out negative opinions without due diligence. I believe that most us here want to engage in a civil and educational exchange of information. It's sad that some only serve to foster dissent and negativity. Thanks to all of you belonging to group A. I'm learning a lot!

I don't think RGA threw out negative comments without due diligence. He is in fact a published reviewer for an audio magazine, or at least he was. He did have a tendency to ruffle our feathers from time to time with his love for Audio Note gear, but he was knowledgeable. If you're looking for people who agree with you all the time, you might as well read the national publications such as Stereophile and The Absolute Sound because they've been accused for years of never writing a negative review. This is a hobby where you will run into people who have owned your gear themselves and have moved on to better gear and will tell you so for their own reasons.

[pdmonty1965]

I don't think RGA threw out negative comments without due diligence. He is in fact a published reviewer for an audio magazine, or at least he was. He did have a tendency to ruffle our feathers from time to time with his love for Audio Note gear, but he was knowledgeable. If you're looking for people who agree with you all the time, you might as well read the national publications such as Stereophile and The Absolute Sound because they've been accused for years of never writing a negative review. This is a hobby where you will run into people who have owned your gear themselves and have moved on to better gear and will tell you so for their own reasons.

Hi Jack, thanks for the response. I was not making inference nor can I attest to or diminish, either way, RGA's knowledge base and I do not expect everyone to agree with me all the time. In fact if everyone did I would never be challenged and would therefore never learn new concepts. What I did take exception to was his ludicrous, blanket statement that B&W speakers were "garbage". First of all, that is his opinion and as we all well know opinions vary and are rarely unbiased in nature however, here is my point. When discussing products that fall into an "elite" category such as B&W, a speaker brand world renowned not only for the quality of their sound but also for their fine furniture grade build quality as well as being routinely compared to other great products from the likes of Martin Logan, Aria, Dynaudio, Paradigm etc. A company who's flagship 800 series are used as professional monitors at studios ranging from Abbey Road to LucasFilms...it is difficult to conceive that anyone's "honest" and unbiased opinion is that they are "garbage". That, to me, is like saying that Lamborghini's suck because you happen to drive a Ferrari. So again, IMHO anyone who, regardless of their perceived intelligence or knowledge base, issues counter-intuitive statements, such as the one now being discussed, seemingly geared only towards getting a rise out of people, is suspect and somewhat diminish themselves as is evidenced by the fact that he abandoned this forum...

Best

[blackraven]

I agree with you P-65. I try never to put down any one's gear. We all have different likes and dislikes as well as different gear, musical tastes and listening environments.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi Jack, thanks for the response. I was not making inference nor can I attest to or diminish, either way, RGA's knowledge base and I do not expect everyone to agree with me all the time. In fact if everyone did I would never be challenged and would therefore never learn new concepts. What I did take exception to was his ludicrous, blanket statement that B&W speakers were "garbage". First of all, that is his opinion and as we all well know opinions vary and are rarely unbiased in nature however, here is my point. When discussing products that fall into an "elite" category such as B&W, a speaker brand world renowned not only for the quality of their sound but also for their fine furniture grade build quality as well as being routinely compared to other great products from the likes of Martin Logan, Aria, Dynaudio, Paradigm etc. A company who's flagship 800 series are used as professional monitors at studios ranging from Abbey Road to LucasFilms...it is difficult to conceive that anyone's "honest" and unbiased opinion is that they are "garbage". That, to me, is like saying that Lamborghini's suck because you happen to drive a Ferrari. So again, IMHO anyone who, regardless of their perceived intelligence or knowledge base, issues counter-intuitive statements, such as the one now being discussed, seemingly geared only towards getting a rise out of people, is suspect and somewhat diminish themselves as is evidenced by the fact that he abandoned this forum...

Best

Not to defend RGA, but he did refer specifically to the 700 series and not all B&W speakers. He does go overboard as he usually did in describing his dislike for the 700 series. Now I wouldn't say that B&W would fall into the "elite" category. Their 800 series do get mentioned when the trade magazines talk about their recommended products, but there are a lot of speaker companies out there that are held in higher regard IMHO. I had the 703's at my house when I was going to upgrade from my Paradigm Monitor 9's a few years back and I honestly didn't hear that much difference, so I kept looking. I would have never called them "garbage" but just not what I was looking for.

[Hyfi]

I am only assuming the 700 series has been around for a while or very similar to earlier series.

EDIT- just checked and it would have been the 600 series /EDIT

When I ended up buying my Dynaudio 82s, I was narrowed down to them and the comparable B&Ws. I went back and forth between them using entry level B&K gear.

I was a total Bass Head back then and also had a thing for Dynaudio speakers since the first time I saw and heard them and went with the Dyns. They did have better bass. I may appreciate the B&Ws more now that I have morphed from Bass to Midrange preferences.

I did recently hear the 802 Diamonds driven by the Mc 600wpc monos and was blown away.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I am only assuming the 700 series has been around for a while or very similar to earlier series.

EDIT- just checked and it would have been the 600 series /EDIT

When I ended up buying my Dynaudio 82s, I was narrowed down to them and the comparable B&Ws. I went back and forth between them using entry level B&K gear.

I was a total Bass Head back then and also had a thing for Dynaudio speakers since the first time I saw and heard them and went with the Dyns. They did have better bass. I may appreciate the B&Ws more now that I have morphed from Bass to Midrange preferences.

I did recently hear the 802 Diamonds driven by the Mc 600wpc monos and was blown away.

My local dealer was a B&W distributor for years and then dropped them because they weren't selling. The 800 series would sell to the higher end customer and the 600 series was popular with the everyday guy but the 700 series didn't find their niche. They eventually picked up Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio and had former B&W customers coming in looking for a trade-in deal. I switched to Usher speakers and then eventually to Dynaudio like Hyfi.