XBox 360 crashing like mad? [Archive]

Groundbeef

11-26-2005, 08:02 AM

Microsoft: where quality is job 1.1

Everything I've been reading indicates that Microsoft's priorities for the Xbox 360 were to get it to market before the PS3, and to make sure that they can make money from the hardware this time. Obviously, adequate quality control took a backseat to those other considerations, and it seems like the console has a lot of the half-baked features that didn't go through sufficient due diligence. .

Are you kidding me? Microsoft isn't making a dime from any of these consoles. They are losing about $153.00 PER CONSOLE sold. Microsoft or Sony for that matter DONT MAKE MONEY on consoles. Its all in the software licensing and add on equipment. (extra controllers, wireless network adapters etc.)

It is not in Microsofts best interest to have faulty hardware due to the fact that they cant sell games (which make money) if the system is down. Also, please expand on your "half-baked" features. I am curious as to your insight on what is not good on the new system.

As far as Sony goes, they are also having problems with the PS3. The Cell-chip they are using is not working up to spec, and they are trying to rework it.

Eric Z

11-26-2005, 08:53 AM

Can you imagine paying over $1K for the 360 on Ebay? I couldn't believe the prices when all the stores ran out of them. I sorta wish I picked up a few and sold some like that. At one time I saw over 30 360s on Ebay and they were all over $1K. Crazy!

Woochifer

11-26-2005, 03:32 PM

Are you kidding me? Microsoft isn't making a dime from any of these consoles. They are losing about $153.00 PER CONSOLE sold. Microsoft or Sony for that matter DONT MAKE MONEY on consoles. Its all in the software licensing and add on equipment. (extra controllers, wireless network adapters etc.)

Microsoft lost billions on the first Xbox because of the high manufacturing, development, and marketing costs, and did not recoup their investment. I've read interviews from their production team that they were not going to lose money from manufacturing the X360 consoles. They're saving money by taking more ownership of the chip technology used in the console, and obviously other forms of cost cutting (including quality control?). From what I understand, Sony at the very least breaks even on its PS2 consoles and pretty much after the first production run avoided losing money from the consoles themselves.

It is not in Microsofts best interest to have faulty hardware due to the fact that they cant sell games (which make money) if the system is down.

It's not in their interest, but the company's decisions typically come from the perspective of a monopolist -- it doesn't matter if you put out bug-ridden products once you've committed those consumers to your platform. To Microsoft, it's all about market share and their belief that they lost out to the PS2 because of the PS2's headstart in the market. They've been all about pushing the X360 into the market in time for the holidays, whether or not the bugs have been worked out. Quality assurance and due diligence are not Microsoft strongsuits.

Also, please expand on your "half-baked" features. I am curious as to your insight on what is not good on the new system.

For instance, I just don't see the logic in cramming all of these networking and media center features into the X360, when the unit isn't even backwards compatible with the original Xbox games out of the box. So many of the new features require a broadband network connection and playing the original Xbox games on a X360 requires downloading an emulation profile. If you're in the majority of households that still use dial-up access, you're out in the cold. Considering that only 10% of Xbox owners had their consoles connected to the internet, that's quite a stretch to presume that a large cross-section of X360 owners will suddenly connect their units to the internet just because Microsoft includes these new features. Say what you will about Sony, but they not going to make consumers jump through these kinds of ridiculous hoops just to play their old PSX and PS2 games on a PS3 console.

Half baked? How about HD resolution without HDMI connections? Or not even including HD connectivity with the core system? Or committing the X360 to HD-DVD, but not including the HD-DVD drives with the first production units (this sets up the possibility of a second X360 release that will force current X360 owners to upgrade -- Microsoft doesn't care because it's just more $$$ for them)?

As far as Sony goes, they are also having problems with the PS3. The Cell-chip they are using is not working up to spec, and they are trying to rework it.

But, the difference is that the PS3 is still in development! Sony has not yet put out a bug-ridden PS3 into the market. The X360 is having issues with actual production units that consumers paid a lot of money for.

Daddy3Legs

11-26-2005, 05:56 PM

Frome what I can see, this thing is CRAPPY marketing BULL-CRAP! No way should you waste money and try these weak poppy-cock filled games.

My goodness, how can anyone be so gosh-darn lacking in thinking.

In other words, save your money!!!!

Daddy3Legs

11-26-2005, 06:00 PM

Eric Z

11-27-2005, 04:46 AM

And people are still buying this crap- especially right when it comes out. We're just empowering them to keep on producing inferior products. That's why I waited to get my PS2 when it was marked down to $129.

Additionally, I'm sure PS3 is losing money as well with their own issues, but at least it's not affecting their customer base yet like Microsoft- I'd be pissed if I bought a product that was not quality tested. However, Microsoft has plenty of money and I'm sure they weighed their options and are still making a boatload of cash- of course they are, every Xbox is sold out in the nation!

Groundbeef

11-27-2005, 07:21 AM

How do you know? Give me a break. You have the $$$ loss calculated and now post it here? How can you know that?

Please explain!!!

Upon review I cannot back up the $153 quote from earlier. I was reading the Wall Street Journal, but you have to pay to look on line at their archives. However, if you click on the link I have provided you will see that on average XBOX 360 loses Microsof $126/ unit when all perhiperals are included. They lose $76 per box, not including extra controller, power convertor, cables etc.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140383.html This is a game website, but the study was commisioned by Business Week. If that is not enough for you to read, do a google search for "Microsoft loss per xbox 360" and happy reading.

Groundbeef

11-27-2005, 08:20 AM

I've read interviews from their production team that they were not going to lose money from manufacturing the X360 consoles. They're saving money by taking more ownership of the chip technology used in the console, and obviously other forms of cost cutting (including quality control?).
From what I understand, Sony at the very least breaks even on its PS2 consoles and pretty much after the first production run avoided losing money from the consoles themselves.

What you read is incorrect. They lose money on every console. However, Sony may be making money at this point in the product life cycle. It is almost 5 years old, and they have sold over 20 million world wide. At some point Microsoft will also recoup the loss, but not right now.

[/QUOTE]
For instance, I just don't see the logic in cramming all of these networking and media center features into the X360, when the unit isn't even backwards compatible with the original Xbox games out of the box. So many of the new features require a broadband network connection and playing the original Xbox games on a X360 requires downloading an emulation profile. If you're in the majority of households that still use dial-up access, you're out in the cold. Considering that only 10% of Xbox owners had their consoles connected to the internet, that's quite a stretch to presume that a large cross-section of X360 owners will suddenly connect their units to the internet just because Microsoft includes these new features. Say what you will about Sony, but they not going to make consumers jump through these kinds of ridiculous hoops just to play their old PSX and PS2 games on a PS3 console. [/QUOTE]

Where are you getting your #'s? Please expand and show sources. XBOX live has been on all accounts a success. Connection is simple and easy. Broadband use is accepted because of low ping. Every play online? With an Xbox or other pc connection? I think you are blowing smoke out your A** on this one. PS2 has had to play catchup with online, and hasn't even come close. And as for backwards compatibility, that is a red herring. I would rather have a console that plays new games better rather than sacrifice quailty to play old games.

As for networking and the like, this is a push to get the console the center of your entertainment center. If you don't think Sony will be able to connect to your PC your nuts.

[/QUOTE]
Half baked? How about HD resolution without HDMI connections? Or not even including HD connectivity with the core system? Or committing the X360 to HD-DVD, but not including the HD-DVD drives with the first production units (this sets up the possibility of a second X360 release that will force current X360 owners to upgrade -- Microsoft doesn't care because it's just more $$$ for them)?
[/QUOTE]

Now your just *****ing to *****. Component cables are more than acceptable for the console to broadcast at 720p resolution that all games will be required to be developed for.
As for the Core system, it is what it is. If you are so heartbroken over the lack of component cables, BUY THEM. They are only $19.99 and pretty nice also. And I have no comment on the HD-DVD drive at this point. I find it funny though, that Sony is going to use BLU-Ray, and yet you are not frothing at the mouth that its "Big Business" cramming it down our throats.

[/QUOTE]
But, the difference is that the PS3 is still in development! Sony has not yet put out a bug-ridden PS3 into the market. The X360 is having issues with actual production units that consumers paid a lot of money for.[/QUOTE]

Bug ridden? You need to lay off the crack pipe. There have been isolated cases of problems with units. So what. I suppose if you have ever had to take a car into the dealer for service you just tossed the keys and said "Keep the F*cker, it needs service, I don't want it anymore!". Thinks break, and thats life. Sony had a MASSIVE recall on the PS2, and I don't hear you crying about that. Heres a link for you http://www.gamespot.com/news/6139482.html . Every company has problems.

Get your info straight and put away your cry rag. I am not interested in your tears.

Woochifer

11-27-2005, 01:16 PM

What you read is incorrect. They lose money on every console. However, Sony may be making money at this point in the product life cycle. It is almost 5 years old, and they have sold over 20 million world wide. At some point Microsoft will also recoup the loss, but not right now.

Then obviously Microsoft failed to achieve that goal. In the interviews I read, they stated that they did not want to lose the kind of money that they did on the original Xbox consoles. Oh well, history repeats itself.

At the time that the Xbox came out, I read that PS2 was already close to breaking even on the hardware side. No idea if the latter price breaks changed that equation or not.

Where are you getting your #'s? Please expand and show sources. XBOX live has been on all accounts a success. Connection is simple and easy. Broadband use is accepted because of low ping. Every play online? With an Xbox or other pc connection? I think you are blowing smoke out your A** on this one. PS2 has had to play catchup with online, and hasn't even come close. And as for backwards compatibility, that is a red herring. I would rather have a console that plays new games better rather than sacrifice quailty to play old games.

If you view 10% market penetration as "on all accounts a success" then go ahead and believe that. No smoke out of anyone's backside, except maybe your own.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/29/news_6134645.html
In an interview in this week's Famitsu, Microsoft chief Xbox officer and senior vice president Robert "Robbie" Bach discussed the Xbox 360 at length, covering everything from the console's launch to plans for expanding the reach of Xbox Live. Bach confirmed that currently, only 10 percent of Xbox owners--some 2 million users--subscribe to Xbox Live.

Backwards compatibility is not a red herring since I prefer not to have the clutter and hassle of multiple gaming consoles sitting around my living room. If I upgrade to the PS3, then I can get rid of my PS2 because I would have the option of using the PS3 to play all my old PS2 games. No need for two sets of consoles and controllers further crowding my already crowded AV rack. If I were an Xbox owner, I'd be pretty pissed that the X360 forces me to have both systems plugged in or to swap them out whenever I change games.

As for networking and the like, this is a push to get the console the center of your entertainment center. If you don't think Sony will be able to connect to your PC your nuts.

Creating a strawman argument here, since I never said that the Sony would connect to the PC (and that's not a feature I would use anyway). As for my entertainment center, the last thing I need is to have all my home entertainment piped in through a Microsoft Xbox/Windows integration setup. I prefer to hit the power switch on my system and have the thing turn on two seconds later -- no blue screens, no hardware errors, no crashes, no patches to download, no fuss.

Now your just *****ing to *****. Component cables are more than acceptable for the console to broadcast at 720p resolution that all games will be required to be developed for.

Not if you haven't already purchased a HDTV and plan to wait a year or two to do so. HDMI is already the standard with new HDTV and DVD hardware, yet it's missing in the X360 which is banking on its HD resolution to gain market share. There are also a lot of indications that analog component video connections are on the way out, and the studios are pushing to have HD resolution on all future HD hardware (including cable and satellite receivers, and HD DVRs) limited to HDMI or other secure digital video connections (and this push is having some success given that HD-DVD and Blu-ray will limit the HD resolution to the digital outputs). The omission of HDMI is yet another example of Microsoft pushing the digital media connectivity features, yet not even getting the basics right like ensuring backwards compatibility and following the most current standards for HD connectivity.

As for the Core system, it is what it is. If you are so heartbroken over the lack of component cables, BUY THEM. They are only $19.99 and pretty nice also. And I have no comment on the HD-DVD drive at this point.

No one's heartbroken about anything since I'm not buying a X360 and don't plan to.

I find it funny though, that Sony is going to use BLU-Ray, and yet you are not frothing at the mouth that its "Big Business" cramming it down our throats.

That's because Blu-ray will come with the PS3 from the outset. The X360 is a half-baked launch because Microsoft clearly has HD-DVD in the console's future plans; and if they eventually issue games on HD-DVD disc media, then current X360 owners will be forced to upgrade their hardware. Sony is integrating the Blu-ray disc media and playback capability into the PS3 from the beginning, no future upgrade necessary.

Bug ridden? You need to lay off the crack pipe. There have been isolated cases of problems with units. So what. I suppose if you have ever had to take a car into the dealer for service you just tossed the keys and said "Keep the F*cker, it needs service, I don't want it anymore!". Thinks break, and thats life. Sony had a MASSIVE recall on the PS2, and I don't hear you crying about that. Heres a link for you http://www.gamespot.com/news/6139482.html . Every company has problems.

And Microsoft had production problems with the first Xbox as well, so there's a history of them pushing defective products into the market before they're ready. The car example's pretty ridiculous because last time I checked, most people paid a lot more than $400 for their ride.

Get your info straight and put away your cry rag. I am not interested in your tears.

And you need to remove those fanboy glasses, you're seeing things.

Groundbeef

11-27-2005, 03:00 PM

Backwards compatibility is not a red herring since I prefer not to have the clutter and hassle of multiple gaming consoles sitting around my living room. If I upgrade to the PS3, then I can get rid of my PS2 because I would have the option of using the PS3 to play all my old PS2 games. No need for two sets of consoles and controllers further crowding my already crowded AV rack. If I were an Xbox owner, I'd be pretty pissed that the X360 forces me to have both systems plugged in or to swap them out whenever I change games.

No one's heartbroken about anything since I'm not buying a X360 and don't plan to.

And Microsoft had production problems with the first Xbox as well, so there's a history of them pushing defective products into the market before they're ready. The car example's pretty ridiculous because last time I checked, most people paid a lot more than $400 for their ride.

Backwards compatibility is a red herring. Are you still p*ssing and moaning because your Atari 2600 games cant be used anymore? No, the fact is that technology moves on. I have a current xbox and really am not all that upset about it. I can 1.Keep the old xbox, and use it when I want to play it. 2. Use my new xbox 360 on my broadband connection, and play my old games. 3. Buy the new games and never look back. If every time something new came out it had to use old technology things would never move forward.

Still got your 8 track on your AV rack? Pissed off because your VHS tapes dont fit into your DVD player? Get real.

As for the car vs the Xbox example, it is not "pretty ridiculous" as you say. Or or you trying to say that if ONLY Microsoft was charging 25K for the Xbox it would be alright for an error or 2.

And you didn't respond to the PS2 recall. I might point out that the settlement was reached only after a class action lawsuit had to be filed on behalf of the consumer. Sony stonewalled the problem and blamed it on the consumer. It was clearly a hardware issue. Just wondering if you had an opinion on that debacle.

Are there any other issues that you would like to discuss even though you have no interest in them?

Woochifer

11-27-2005, 05:56 PM

Backwards compatibility is a red herring. Are you still p*ssing and moaning because your Atari 2600 games cant be used anymore? No, the fact is that technology moves on. I have a current xbox and really am not all that upset about it. I can 1.Keep the old xbox, and use it when I want to play it. 2. Use my new xbox 360 on my broadband connection, and play my old games. 3. Buy the new games and never look back. If every time something new came out it had to use old technology things would never move forward.

Good for you that you're fine with swapping out your consoles everytime you want to play your old games, but like I said, why would Microsoft purposely build these arbitrary barriers to playing your old Xbox games on the X360, especially when Sony keeps the Playstation consoles backwards compatible? That kind of oversight reflects a lack of due diligence on their part and a rush to get the X360 to market before it's ready, which is typical of how Microsoft does business. I mean, I only need one gaming console to play all my PSX and PS2 games, and if I get a PS3, then I will only need one gaming console to play my PSX, PS2, and PS3 games.

With only a handful of X360 games in the meantime, and only 1/3 of the Xbox games playable on the X360 (provided that you have a broadband connection and have it connected to your X360 in the first place), that means a lot of swapping out in the meantime while waiting for the X360 games to trickle out.

Of all companies, Microsoft should know the advantages of backwards compatibility -- do you honestly think they could've kept their Windows monopoly intact if every new version of Windows would not work with applications written for previous versions? If backwards compatibility was a red herring, why would Sony bother with ensuring that the PS2 worked with PSX games, and why they are stating that the PS3 will work with PS2 and PSX games? Obviously, they see value in backwards compatibility, otherwise they would not include it as a feature from the outset, and not force consumers to jump through arbitrary hoops like downloading emulation profiles.

Still got your 8 track on your AV rack? Pissed off because your VHS tapes dont fit into your DVD player? Get real.

I am being quite real, but you seem more adept at winning strawman arguments and throwing mock condescension around, as exemplified in these comments.

As for the car vs the Xbox example, it is not "pretty ridiculous" as you say. Or or you trying to say that if ONLY Microsoft was charging 25K for the Xbox it would be alright for an error or 2.

Why would it not be? You were trying to compare someone complaining about a $400 X360 with them wanting to get rid of a new car because it breaks down. Very different devices and magnitudes of cost involved, not to mention the absurdity of your example -- how many people will actually give away rather than repair a new car?

And you didn't respond to the PS2 recall. I might point out that the settlement was reached only after a class action lawsuit had to be filed on behalf of the consumer. Sony stonewalled the problem and blamed it on the consumer. It was clearly a hardware issue. Just wondering if you had an opinion on that debacle.

Why would I respond? The topic at hand is about the many reports of problems with the X360. In your oh-so-tech-savvy view of the world, the PS2 is ancient history, so why bring that up, unless you're just being a dutiful Xbox fanboy trying to change the subject. If the PS3 comes out with bugs galore, then Sony will rightfully get roasted on boards like this one. Although if that happens, I'm sure you'd excuse Sony with the same caveat emptor "Thinks break, and thats life" approach that you've taken with the X360, right?

How many people have actually filed a claim as a result of that class action suit? Costs a lot less to settle a case knowing that not a whole lot of people will actually make claims for reimbursement, than to go through a civil litigation with unknown damages being awarded by a jury. My four-year old PS2 has worked fine from day one, but if it ever gives me disc read errors, then it's nice to know I can get $25 back for my troubles.

And speaking of not responding, I notice that you had no more smokeoutofyoura** comments about the 10% Xbox broadband usage stat, or "just *****ing to *****" retorts to add about the X360's exclusion of HDMI.

Groundbeef

11-28-2005, 06:16 AM

In your oh-so-tech-savvy view of the world, the PS2 is ancient history, so why bring that up, unless you're just being a dutiful Xbox fanboy trying to change the subject. If the PS3 comes out with bugs galore, then Sony will rightfully get roasted on boards like this one. Although if that happens, I'm sure you'd excuse Sony with the same caveat emptor "Thinks break, and thats life" approach that you've taken with the X360, right?

And speaking of not responding, I notice that you had no more smokeoutofyoura** comments about the 10% Xbox broadband usage stat, or "just *****ing to *****" retorts to add about the X360's exclusion of HDMI.

1. I brought up Sony as you are only to happy to cast dispersions on a system you don't even intend on buying. And yet you let a Sony lawsuit pass under the radar as though only Microsoft has hardware issues. That was the point. As far as excusing Sony if there are hardware issues on the PS3, you bet I will. I will however draw the line if they stonewall the issue and deny any claims related to hardware issues.
At this time, Microsoft is taking the issue VERY seriously. In fact, if you have an issue Microsoft will pay for you to next day ship, and fix or replace, then next day your XBOX 360 back to you. This is not the stance that Sony took with the original PS2.

Read here for mor info http://spong.com/detail/news.asp?mode=news&type=n&cid=&pid=&vid=&prid=9336&n=Xbox+360+Faults.+Full+Report&cb=0.6022106

So your original quote of " Quality assurance and due diligence are not Microsoft strongsuits." is on its face non factual and foolish. It also appears the the "widespread" reports are also non-existant, and over reported. This is a few units that are being replaced as the issue presents itself.

2. Your follow up posting on the 10% number was suspect. It didnt make sense and I don't respond just to post. I did some more digging, and I back up my claim that XBOX live is a success on all accounts. You can put your head in the sand if you like, but it is an excellent advantage for Microsoft. Read more here : http://www.g4tv.com/xbox360/features/52560/Xbox_Live_on_Xbox_360_Pricing.html

I might direct you to this quote in the article "In the U.S., 63% of consumers state that online gaming capabilities are extremely or very important when choosing a next-gen console. To compare, just two years ago, only 15% claimed online as a key feature. "

Again, you are off base. If you dont have a dog in the fight, I would advise you to stay out of the fray. Your aversion to Online gaming, and ignorance to the fact that Broadband is the way to go is apparent. Please post when you have more facts to back up your blather.

3. As for HDMI, I stand my by orignal post that component cables are more than acceptable for 720p format that the XBOX 360 requires games to be designed for. You are b*tching that XBOX is not designed for gamers, and yet want a format that many people dont have on their TV sets. Component cables (Y-PB-PR) are much more common on TV sets than HDMI. Also, if Microsoft wanted HDMI connectivity, it would not be difficult to make a XBOX-360 cable that would have a HDMI terminal.
I just want to make sure I understand you. You blast them because Microsoft wants gamers to play on broadband connections, and yet you want them to make it connect to TV's that many probably dont have. Makes sense.

4. As for being a "fanboy"? So what. You make foolish, unsubstaniated arguements, and expect people to lap up your drivel. I don't and prefer to respond with facts and information that helps my case. I guess you would be "ignorantboy"

Have a nice day.

Groundbeef

11-28-2005, 08:50 AM

[QUOTE=Woochifer] I mean, I only need one gaming console to play all my PSX and PS2 games, and if I get a PS3, then I will only need one gaming console to play my PSX, PS2, and PS3 games.
If backwards compatibility was a red herring, why would Sony bother with ensuring that the PS2 worked with PSX games, and why they are stating that the PS3 will work with PS2 and PSX games? Obviously, they see value in backwards compatibility, otherwise they would not include it as a feature from the outset, and not force consumers to jump through arbitrary hoops like downloading emulation profiles

Huh, better check your facts AGAIN. See this article

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136677.html

This is just preliminary as the system is not fully built. Seems that "meltdown" issue they are having with heat has set them back a bit. I think even more games will be "not compatible" come 2006? or is it 2007? . But it seems that you may have to jump through a few hoops...and most likely you will need broadband for your emulation d/l. Uh-oh

Woochifer

11-28-2005, 08:51 AM

1. I brought up Sony as you are only to happy to cast dispersions on a system you don't even intend on buying. And yet you let a Sony lawsuit pass under the radar as though only Microsoft has hardware issues. That was the point. As far as excusing Sony if there are hardware issues on the PS3, you bet I will. I will however draw the line if they stonewall the issue and deny any claims related to hardware issues.
At this time, Microsoft is taking the issue VERY seriously. In fact, if you have an issue Microsoft will pay for you to next day ship, and fix or replace, then next day your XBOX 360 back to you. This is not the stance that Sony took with the original PS2.

And what does Sony's issues with the PS2 have to do with the topic at hand? Uh, nothing.

Given that Microsoft does not have a monopoly or even market leadership in the video game market, they damn well better take the issue seriously.

So your original quote of " Quality assurance and due diligence are not Microsoft strongsuits." is on its face non factual and foolish. It also appears the the "widespread" reports are also non-existant, and over reported. This is a few units that are being replaced as the issue presents itself.

My quote applies to how Microsoft does business in general. How many times have over the years have they let their customers do their beta testing for them with bug-ridden first releases?

2. Your follow up posting on the 10% number was suspect. It didnt make sense and I don't respond just to post. I did some more digging, and I back up my claim that XBOX live is a success on all accounts.

Of course you didn't because I backed up fact that you claimed I was pulling out of my backside. As I said, if you regard 10% adoption of Xbox Live a success on all accounts, then knock yourself out.

You can put your head in the sand if you like, but it is an excellent advantage for Microsoft.

Sure, it would be if their customers actually make use of the feature.

I might direct you to this quote in the article "In the U.S., 63% of consumers state that online gaming capabilities are extremely or very important when choosing a next-gen console. To compare, just two years ago, only 15% claimed online as a key feature. "

Wanting the capability and actually using it are two entirely different questions.

Again, you are off base. If you dont have a dog in the fight, I would advise you to stay out of the fray. Your aversion to Online gaming, and ignorance to the fact that Broadband is the way to go is apparent. Please post when you have more facts to back up your blather.

Off base? Hardly. I posted a fact, and you're responding with opinions and presumptuous attacks on the messenger.

"Your aversion to Online gaming" = presumption
"ignorance to the fact that Broadband is the way to go" = presumption
"fact that Broadband is the way to go" = opinion

3. As for HDMI, I stand my by orignal post that component cables are more than acceptable for 720p format that the XBOX 360 requires games to be designed for.

Sure, it's acceptable for now, but if the HDTV and DVD hardware markets have almost universally gone to HDMI connectivity, it's curious that Microsoft would leave that feature out if they are trying to create not even a cutting edge but just one that keeps up with CURRENT standards.

You are b*tching that XBOX is not designed for gamers, and yet want a format that many people dont have on their TV sets.

Where do I say that? Those fanboy glasses must be fogging up.

Component cables (Y-PB-PR) are much more common on TV sets than HDMI.

Have you looked in the backs of HDTVs lately? HDMI is now basically a universal feature on HDTVs and nearly universal on DVD players. The almost complete transition to HDMI on the hardware side has taken less than two years.

Also, if Microsoft wanted HDMI connectivity, it would not be difficult to make a XBOX-360 cable that would have a HDMI terminal.

Yeah, it would be nice and it would not be difficult, but for now it's just coulda woulda shoulda on Microsoft's part.

just want to make sure I understand you. You blast them because Microsoft wants gamers to play on broadband connections, and yet you want them to make it connect to TV's that many probably dont have. Makes sense.

No, I'm getting on Microsoft's case because they're cramming all of these media center, PC integration, and networking features into the X360, yet they don't even execute basic features like backwards compatibility and digital video output. Even entry level sub-$100 DVD players now include digital video outputs, so why would a next gen gaming console capable of 720p resolution exclude it?

4. As for being a "fanboy"? So what. You make foolish, unsubstaniated arguements, and expect people to lap up your drivel. I don't and prefer to respond with facts and information that helps my case. I guess you would be "ignorantboy"

Ah, the fanboy comes clean! But, keep in mind that admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. Maybe after taking those next steps, your myopia will clear up and you can post more coherently and better differentiate between facts and opinions.

jocko_nc

11-28-2005, 09:17 AM

Ba Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!!! A Microsoft product with a problem? Can it possibly be???????

The Xbox is the only innovation that will allow MS to remain a viable company in the future. If I read correctly, that was essentially what the company themselves said a couple of years ago. The multi-purpose desktop PC is dying, and along with it its operating system. Take a look at the evolution of digital technology, the applications that matter are converging on the living room wall, not on the office desk. Communication, storage, display, broadcast content, home video, etc. are being accomplished on appliances that do not run any Microsoft products. (Thank God, at least they will be reliable!) Think: TiVO / DVR, iPods, Voice-over-Internet, HD displays, DirecTV, PS2, Blackberry, mobile phones. The list goes on, each an open-interface product that does not rely on proprietary Microsoft code. The XBox was Microsoft's effort to get off the desktop and into the living room. They recognized this trend early and put out the XBox at all costs, spending untold billions. They were blindsided by PS2 and its capabilities, including the network connectivity it brought. Millions of kids growing up with network communication that did not include the PC. Frightening. The new 360 was their offer to regain the lead. Did they jump the gun? I guess we'll see.

Now for the usual rant...

I think historical evidence illustrates that Microsoft as it exists cannot compete in a real consumer market. They have operated for years with a monopoly unlike any in history. Virtually every other industry has stiff competition, and the companies that thrive must be very fit. Microsoft sells defective, crappy products at inflated prices. They have leveraged their monopoly status to control the larger use of their products: First PC's themselves, then applications, finally networking and the Internet. They use revenues from their monopoly business to subsidize potentially competing technologies: Xbox. Personally, I think their time is running out. The PC operating system is dying, yet still generates a ton of capital. They need to make a move. Such is the Xbox platform. In the long-term, however, the best case scenario is that Microsoft has to compete in the new digital environment, going head-to-head with the likes of Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Yamaha, Comcast, DirecTV, etc. Good Luck!

jocko

Groundbeef

11-28-2005, 12:06 PM

[QUOTE]And what does Sony's issues with the PS2 have to do with the topic at hand? Uh, nothing.

Given that Microsoft does not have a monopoly or even market leadership in the video game market, they damn well better take the issue seriously.

My quote applies to how Microsoft does business in general. How many times have over the years have they let their customers do their beta testing for them with bug-ridden first releases?

I see. Again so we are clear here. Microsoft=Bad because they don't help consumer if there is a problem. This myth was cleared up earlier, as they are fixing the small # of problem consoles as they appear. Sony=Good because they don't fix problems and require consumer to win lawsuit for relief. Glad you got that cleared up for us.
You never seem to comment on the Sony problem. It is relevent because your OP insinuates that Microsoft is the only large console maker to have problems, and do nothing to give the consumer relief.

Sure, it would be if their customers actually make use of the feature.
As I said, if you regard 10% adoption of Xbox Live a success on all accounts, then knock yourself out.
Wanting the capability and actually using it are two entirely different questions.

Man you are so far out of water, I hope you don't suffacate before you get back into your comfort zone. Check out these 2 articles about the PS3 and online gaming:
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000813066433/
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?page=http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=121475

Its not just XBOX 360 you noodle head, EVERY CONSOLE sold from here on out will connect to the internet. And much to your dismay PS3 can be used for web surfing and other networking features. Better start your 1 man letter writing campaign to end the madness!!!

Sure, it's acceptable for now, but if the HDTV and DVD hardware markets have almost universally gone to HDMI connectivity, it's curious that Microsoft would leave that feature out if they are trying to create not even a cutting edge but just one that keeps up with CURRENT standards.

Man, you need to do some more reading. Its not really all that hard. Go to google and look it up buddy. Here is your HDMI issue all tied up with a bow and pretty ribbon:

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

"The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming."

Uh-Oh, there goes another one of your arguements down the crapper. Sling mud all you want, but you are just blowing more smoke.

Yeah, it would be nice and it would not be difficult, but for now it's just coulda woulda shoulda on Microsoft's part.

Yea, it would be nice if it could grill a cheese sandwich for me too.

No, I'm getting on Microsoft's case because they're cramming all of these media center, PC integration, and networking features into the X360, yet they don't even execute basic features like backwards compatibility and digital video output.

Again, read the above articles....as you can plainly see its not just XBOX. It has the same backwards compatibility as the PS3 will. And DigVid Output is NOT NEEDED.

Ah, the fanboy comes clean! But, keep in mind that admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. Maybe after taking those next steps, your myopia will clear up and you can post more coherently and better differentiate between
facts and opinions.

Oh that really hurt. My God Man, oh the humanity....I like a microsoft product.....ahhhhhhh. Give me a break. You sound like a little kid...I don't like it...I don't like it whaaaaaaaaa.

Thanks for trying though.

Woochifer

11-28-2005, 12:18 PM

Huh, better check your facts AGAIN. See this article

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136677.html

This is just preliminary as the system is not fully built. Seems that "meltdown" issue they are having with heat has set them back a bit. I think even more games will be "not compatible" come 2006? or is it 2007? . But it seems that you may have to jump through a few hoops...and most likely you will need broadband for your emulation d/l. Uh-oh

Once again stretching facts to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. All that the Sony rep said is that they had compatibility issues with a "small portion" of the 8,000 PSX and PS2 titles that they tested. Where does it say anything about needing "broadband for your emulation"? Or is that just wishful fanboy speculation?

Even with a broadband connection and the $400 X360 version, only 1/3 of the Xbox titles are playable on the X360! At least Sony made it a goal from the outset to have the PS3 compatible with PSX and PS2 games out of the box. If they don't achieve 100% compatibility, it's still far better than the 33% compatibility that Microsoft forces consumers to jump through hoops to achieve, and the 0% compatibility out of the box.

Woochifer

11-28-2005, 12:55 PM

You never seem to comment on the Sony problem. It is relevent because your OP insinuates that Microsoft is the only large console maker to have problems, and do nothing to give the consumer relief.

No, I don't comment on it because it's not the topic of this thread. You want to dredge up old news about Sony and the PS2 launch, start your own thread.

Its not just XBOX 360 you noodle head, EVERY CONSOLE sold from here on out will connect to the internet. And much to your dismay PS3 can be used for web surfing and other networking features. Better start your 1 man letter writing campaign to end the madness!!!

Ooohh! Noodle head! Them's fightin' words!

Contrary to your myopic presumption, I don't mind that the new consoles have networking features. I'm just commenting that the X360 happens to include those features while dropping the ball on much more basic stuff like playing Xbox games and including a HDMI connection to at least future-proof the unit for the next couple of years. And let's see, the PS3 will play PSX and PS2 games out of the box without requiring broadband access or emulator downloads, they will play Blu-ray discs, and they have HDMI connections. On paper at least, the PS3 has got the basics covered PLUS it offers up the new features. The X360 is trying to push the media center features and Windows integration, yet it can't even play 2/3 of the Xbox games on the market.

Man, you need to do some more reading. Its not really all that hard. Go to google and look it up buddy. Here is your HDMI issue all tied up with a bow and pretty ribbon:

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

"The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming."

Uh-Oh, there goes another one of your arguements down the crapper. Sling mud all you want, but you are just blowing more smoke.

Hmmm, an interview with a Microsoft employee, now THAT'S an objective view! Microsoft dropped the ball with HDMI, it's that simple. You think one of their employees will say anything outside of the company line? "arguements [sp] down the crapper" ... uh, I guess if Microsoft says so, it must be so! :rolleyes:

All of the new HD devices coming out now have digital video inputs/outputs, so why doesn't the X360? The reviews of the X360, even those that otherwise praise it as a gaming platform, are pointing out the HDMI omission as a questionable move.

And if someone plans to wait a couple of years to buy a HDTV, they might find a rude surprise waiting for them when they look in the back and find only digital video connections back there. HDMI is the here and now standard, while analog vid is getting phased out.

Again, read the above articles....as you can plainly see its not just XBOX. It has the same backwards compatibility as the PS3 will. And DigVid Output is NOT NEEDED.

Pure speculation on your part about the backwards compatibility. Even the article you linked to doesn't point to the PS3 dropping all the way down to 33% backwards compatibility (and that's the best case scenario if you bother with the broadband connections and downloading to begin with). And the digital video is one of those features that the rest of the home entertainment market has already adopted, so the X360 is already behind the curve.

Oh that really hurt. My God Man, oh the humanity....I like a microsoft product.....ahhhhhhh. Give me a break. You sound like a little kid...I don't like it...I don't like it whaaaaaaaaa

And your little condescending missives reflect an oh-so-developed maturity on your part. Like I said, when the myopia clears up, you might be able to coherently present a factual post, rather than just another fanboy rant more akin to the teenybop gamer or compact car tuning boards than this one. Talk to us when your vision improves.

Groundbeef

11-28-2005, 01:26 PM

[QUOTE]No, I don't comment on it because it's not the topic of this thread. You want to dredge up old news about Sony and the PS2 launch, start your own thread.

No, I don't need to start a new thread. And I guess to you, Oct 2005 is old news. That is when the settlement was reached. Final paper work is to be filed and completed buy May 2006 (tenatively). So it's not "old news" as you say. Again, it must break your heart to realize that Microsoft is not leaving anyone out in the cold. If your console breaks, they will fix it.

Contrary to your myopic presumption, I don't mind that the new consoles have networking features. I'm just commenting that the X360 happens to include those features while dropping the ball on much more basic stuff like playing Xbox games and including a HDMI connection to at least future-proof the unit for the next couple of years.

Again, you are the one with blinders on. It is a cable issue. When the cable is needed, it will be made. PS3 will need it out of the box because it will be blue ray tech, not DVD-Rom. Future proof it? You think this life cycle is for 2 weeks? New consoles are planned for a 5 year life cycle.

And let's see, the PS3 will play PSX and PS2 games out of the box without requiring broadband access or emulator downloads, they will play Blu-ray discs, and they have HDMI connections. On paper at least, the PS3 has got the basics covered PLUS it offers up the new features. The X360 is trying to push the media center features and Windows integration, yet it can't even play 2/3 of the Xbox games on the market.

Speculation on your end. Yes, it will have backwards compatibility, I have not disputed that fact. You cannot back up your claim of no broadband or emulator d/l. If you can, back it up big boy.

All of the new HD devices coming out now have digital video inputs/outputs, so why doesn't the X360? The reviews of the X360, even those that otherwise praise it as a gaming platform, are pointing out the HDMI omission as a questionable move.

Again, its a cable issue.

And if someone plans to wait a couple of years to buy a HDTV, they might find a rude surprise waiting for them when they look in the back and find only digital video connections back there. HDMI is the here and now standard, while analog vid is getting phased out.

You are correct, however, there are plenty of people that don't have HDTV or are going to purchase the new machine and a new TV.

And your little condescending missives reflect an oh-so-developed maturity on your part. Like I said, when the myopia clears up, you might be able to coherently present a factual post, rather than just another fanboy rant more akin to the teenybop gamer or compact car tuning boards than this one. Talk to us when your vision improves.

Right grandpa, I'm just the wisecracking whelp here. Let me put a 33 on the old turntable for you. Please expand on the "fanboy" reference. I am dying to understand your "insult". Or are we all to belive you shop at aldi and buy "Korn Flakes" so you stick it to the corporate man. Do you have any favorite A/V equipement or do you just get generic?
Thats good. I like that "fanboy"...

Woochifer

11-28-2005, 03:39 PM

No, I don't need to start a new thread. And I guess to you, Oct 2005 is old news. That is when the settlement was reached. Final paper work is to be filed and completed buy May 2006 (tenatively). So it's not "old news" as you say. Again, it must break your heart to realize that Microsoft is not leaving anyone out in the cold. If your console breaks, they will fix it.

Hmmm, and the suit was filed in 2003, with the units in question manufactured well before then? Like I said, if you're so bent to discuss PS2 problems, start a new thread.

Again, you are the one with blinders on. It is a cable issue. When the cable is needed, it will be made. PS3 will need it out of the box because it will be blue ray tech, not DVD-Rom. Future proof it? You think this life cycle is for 2 weeks? New consoles are planned for a 5 year life cycle.

Cable issue? Nope, HDMI is a digital video connection, whereas component video is analog. Any analog-to-HDMI conversion would require a separate ADC device or a dedicated digital output, not just a new cable. HDMI is copy protected, while component video is not. HDMI can simultaneously carry audio and video signals on one cable, while component video requires three cables and is video only. HDMI is the most current standard, while component video is on the way out, with studios pushing for restrictions on the maximum resolution that can be displayed using analog connections. The studios have already pressured HD-DVD and Blu-ray into restricting the analog video resolution, and they're now applying similar pressure for analog restrictions on other HD devices.

If the new consoles are planned for a 5-year life cycle, then why would it not include HDMI, since that connection standard is already close to universal with new HD hardware? Plus, once the X360 starts including HD-DVD drives, it will have to have HDMI in order to function in HD due to that format's analog output restrictions, leaving early adoptor X360 owners in the lurch or boning up for the upgrade.

Speculation on your end. Yes, it will have backwards compatibility, I have not disputed that fact. You cannot back up your claim of no broadband or emulator d/l. If you can, back it up big boy.

You're the one that brought up the broadband emulator speculation in the first place. I guess you think that approach is a good idea because Microsoft thinks it is. Sony's track record has been backwards compatibility out of the box, Microsoft's track record is anything but that. If the truth hurts, I guess groundless speculation must be your way of dealing with it.

Right grandpa, I'm just the wisecracking whelp here. Let me put a 33 on the old turntable for you. Please expand on the "fanboy" reference. I am dying to understand your "insult". Or are we all to belive you shop at aldi and buy "Korn Flakes" so you stick it to the corporate man. Do you have any favorite A/V equipement or do you just get generic?
Thats good. I like that "fanboy"...

Keep in mind that you're on an audio board, with plenty of vinylphiles in the audience, so I don't know where you're going with the turntable reference.

Why would the fanboy reference be an insult? It just is what it is. You're telling everyone that the X360 is well designed with no missteps, while trying to divert the conversation over to the sins of Sony. Yeah, everything about Microsoft is wonderful and anyone who disagrees with that is a NOODLE HEAD!

My favorite AV equipment is whatever meets my specific needs within my budget. I have no blind allegiance to any one particular company, and almost all of the components in my system are made by different manufacturers. (see gallery link below) I own a PS2 because it plays the games that I want to play, not because I'm a huge fan of Sony (check some of my home theater posts sometime and you'll see that I hardly ever recommend Sony for anything because of their reliability inconsistencies). If the PS3 has production hiccups, then I'm not about to buy one and hope for the best, nor excuse Sony for putting out something before working the bugs out.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=16&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Groundbeef

11-28-2005, 06:34 PM

Keep in mind that you're on an audio board, with plenty of vinylphiles in the audience, so I don't know where you're going with the turntable reference.

Why would the fanboy reference be an insult? It just is what it is. You're telling everyone that the X360 is well designed with no missteps, while trying to divert the conversation over to the sins of Sony. Yeah, everything about Microsoft is wonderful and anyone who disagrees with that is a NOODLE HEAD!

My favorite AV equipment is whatever meets my specific needs within my budget. I have no blind allegiance to any one particular company, and almost all of the components in my system are made by different manufacturers. (see gallery link below) I own a PS2 because it plays the games that I want to play, not because I'm a huge fan of Sony (check some of my home theater posts sometime and you'll see that I hardly ever recommend Sony for anything because of their reliability inconsistencies). If the PS3 has production hiccups, then I'm not about to buy one and hope for the best, nor excuse Sony for putting out something before working the bugs out.

I'm tired and going to bed. Gotta be to work at 3:00 am. I have read your other posts, and visited your website. Very good stuff. I just dont agree with your points on the 360. I cannot argue AV equipement with you, or anyone else on this board, as I am a relitive novice on the topic. However, I will disagree with you on the gaming side.

Anyway, you may be a noodle head, but you did call me a teenybooper (does anyone use that anymore?)

Woochifer

11-29-2005, 10:24 AM

I'm tired and going to bed. Gotta be to work at 3:00 am. I have read your other posts, and visited your website. Very good stuff. I just dont agree with your points on the 360. I cannot argue AV equipement with you, or anyone else on this board, as I am a relitive novice on the topic. However, I will disagree with you on the gaming side.

Anyway, you may be a noodle head, but you did call me a teenybooper (does anyone use that anymore?)

Alright, call it a wash and call it a day. BTW, welcome to the board. Hope your journey on the AV side gets you to a point where we can start arguing on that topic. :D

Florian

11-29-2005, 10:29 AM

Groundbeef

11-29-2005, 11:43 AM

Just to give some of you guys a heads up but, Microsoft is one of the worlds most powerfull and wealthy cooperation. They can loose 300$ per console and still not give a hoop. :D Same with Intel vs. AMD, the giant will stay the giant no matter if they release a **** product or not.

Not to get into any more friendly discussions, but that is an interesting point. There has been recent speculation that MS may LOWER the price of the XBOX 360 close to the release of the PS3. Currently the gaming side of Sony is the only part that is consistantly pulling in cash.

Speculation is that IF Sony sells the PS3 at the same $399 price point that XBOX 360 is being sold at, they will lose even more per console than MS. Current estimates are around $150/loss per console at $399. This would translate into over $1.2 Billion (with a B) for the first year of sales in lost money. If MS does lower cost of console it could severly cripple Sony's abiltiy to recoup its losses on the hardware side. This would really hurt Sony's bottom line as games are its saving grace right now.

I have some links I can post if interested.

topspeed

11-29-2005, 12:26 PM

Groundbeef,

If MS didn't already have such an infamous reputation for releasing products before they were ready, this thread wouldn't even exist. Aside from all of your posturing and unwarranted mud slinging, if your best defense for the topic at hand is that "thinks[sic] break," that's pretty shallow.

Microsoft is a huge company with arguably some of the best engineers on the planet working for them and yet they can't get it right out of the box. That's OK tho, because "thinks break."

Microsoft likely has truckloads of market forecasts at their fingertips yet they fail to include HDMI, the recognized standard of the industry. That's OK tho, because "thinks break."

Microsoft is marketing the X360 as the new media center for every family and yet you'll need to get an add-on for HD-DVD. That's OK tho, because "thinks break."

You know, at first I thought you simply mistyped "thinks" instead of "things," but now I realize you were actually quite right. MS clearly didn't think this thing out.

Thinks break.

Woochifer

11-29-2005, 12:31 PM

Not to get into any more friendly discussions, but that is an interesting point. There has been recent speculation that MS may LOWER the price of the XBOX 360 close to the release of the PS3. Currently the gaming side of Sony is the only part that is consistantly pulling in cash.

Speculation is that IF Sony sells the PS3 at the same $399 price point that XBOX 360 is being sold at, they will lose even more per console than MS. Current estimates are around $150/loss per console at $399. This would translate into over $1.2 Billion (with a B) for the first year of sales in lost money. If MS does lower cost of console it could severly cripple Sony's abiltiy to recoup its losses on the hardware side. This would really hurt Sony's bottom line as games are its saving grace right now.

I have some links I can post if interested.

It's also a double-whammy for Sony because if the PS3 goes on sale in the springtime, that won't be too long after the debut of the Blu-ray format. The anticipated list prices on the first batch of Blu-ray players is supposedly around $800. With the PS3 debuting at the $400 price point, that would undercut the Blu-ray players almost right from the start, since the PS3s will have Blu-ray drives on board.

I thought that one of the reasons behind developing Blu-ray and HD-DVD was because the profit margins from the DVD format had gone south so quickly. The consortia developing the new formats are supposedly taking steps to try and sustain higher margins on Blu-ray/HD-DVD hardware longer than with the DVD. The PS3 will help seed the Blu-ray format in the market (IMO the format war is already over with Blu-ray winning before the first shot), but it might also accelerate Blu-ray's descent into low margin commodity territory.

Groundbeef

11-29-2005, 02:39 PM

Groundbeef,

You know, at first I thought you simply mistyped "thinks" instead of "things," but now I realize you were actually quite right. MS clearly didn't think this thing out.

Thinks break.

Well, it looks like the grammer police are out in force today. Do you have your spinning red hat on officer?

My hands are out in front for the cuffs, slap them on.

It was a typing error. "Things Break" was the phrase I was going for. Sharp eye though.

As for the rest of your message, it has been dealt with in prior posts. Say what you want, but MS is making any problems with the 360 right.

Have a great day, and good luck chasing down any other spelling/grammer errors officer.

Groundbeef

11-29-2005, 02:43 PM

It's also a double-whammy for Sony because if the PS3 goes on sale in the springtime, that won't be too long after the debut of the Blu-ray format. The anticipated list prices on the first batch of Blu-ray players is supposedly around $800. With the PS3 debuting at the $400 price point, that would undercut the Blu-ray players almost right from the start, since the PS3s will have Blu-ray drives on board.

I thought that one of the reasons behind developing Blu-ray and HD-DVD was because the profit margins from the DVD format had gone south so quickly. The consortia developing the new formats are supposedly taking steps to try and sustain higher margins on Blu-ray/HD-DVD hardware longer than with the DVD. The PS3 will help seed the Blu-ray format in the market (IMO the format war is already over with Blu-ray winning before the first shot), but it might also accelerate Blu-ray's descent into low margin commodity territory.

I think you are right on the money with this one. Back when the PS1 came out, it was sort of like a double bonus for the consumer. They got a game machine AND a dvd player. But the HD movement is for movie and player makers to get back into the profit line. If Blu-Ray get its price hammered into the dirt, it would make sense for the consumer to say "Hey Sony, why can I buy a PS3 for $400.00 and it plays Blu-Ray movies, and games, and now you want me to shell out $800 (speculation) for a first gen Blu-Ray player that only plays movies?"

I think that Sony is using PS3 to drive the HD movie market into their court. However, I think the sword may be double edged and cut them pretty deep if they are not careful.

Groundbeef

11-29-2005, 05:24 PM

Here is a link pertaining to the MS/Sony pricing issue.

Puts a new spin on the whole cost/pricing issue for Sony.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1497&Itemid=2

As stated in the article much is speculation, but MS could really put the screws to Sony.
Maybe MS didn't include HDDVD and HDMI on purpose....just to drive the cost to the floor. As a game buyer I really don't care if a game is on 2 or even 3 disks. Thats the way most computer games are anyway. And with the HD (hard drive) on the 360 it wouldn't be hard to have a big game over 2 disks. And Sony is then going to have to justify a $100 or more price difference and also games will at least be $60 (like 360, but maybe even higher if blu-ray affects cost)

Just a theory...

Lensman

11-29-2005, 09:19 PM

The thing that bothers me most is the continuing erosion of consumer demand for quality in the products companies bring to market. It could be said this is something happening everywhere. But as an independent game developer in my spare time, it seems to me that it's far and away more prevalent in the gaming industry. Countless games are brought to market with promised and heavily hyped features missing or compromised and even core basics like gameplay control can be so poorly executed that otherwise brilliant games are unplayable. Many just-plain lousy games from the initial idea up fly off the store shelves.

How many times has poor control or bad camera angles in a game driven you mad recently? How many games have you seen lately with great graphics - and nothing else? When was the last time you didn't buy a piece of PC software and start looking for patches and updates for it as soon as you got home? How many times have the words "movie tie-in" not made you shudder?

Many games that should never have made it to the open market fill the stores because companies rush product development to get them out before the holidays, before the interest/fad fades, or just to beat the competition to release. With few exceptions in the gaming community, consumers have reacted by simply shrugging their shoulders in blissful complacency and rushing en masse to get their preorders in. Until consumers decide to stop doing this and say enough is enough, things are likely to only worsen. I fear the overwhelming acceptance of Xbox 360, flaws and all, could be the harbinger of the latest development in this downward trend.

Imagine a world where you check geek sites for serial number information, then go from store to store checking for videogame consoles known to have fewer quality problems or perhaps run a little better/faster. A world where a hard drive and paid-subscription network connection are vital so you can download firmware updates to fix hardware glitches and bug patches necessary to make the $60+ games you buy playable. A world where promised hardware features are added later as upgrades you must buy seperately to remain compatible with new game releases. Doesn't sound like a better world to me regardless of how much more realistic the graphics might look.

jocko_nc

11-30-2005, 06:37 AM

Not even Microsoft has an unlimited pool of money. No company can afford to lose money indefinitely. All business mature and evolve, the players need to adapt and survive.

Just ask GM.

jocko

Groundbeef

11-30-2005, 09:58 AM

Not even Microsoft has an unlimited pool of money. No company can afford to lose money indefinitely. All business mature and evolve, the players need to adapt and survive.

Just ask GM.

jocko

What are you refering to? I don't think that anyone on this thread is suggesting that a company can lose money forever. However, at this time the war chest of cash that MS has VS Sony is indisputible. Sony is really struggling right now. All divisions are losing money with the exception of gaming. If MS can hold Sony's feet to the fire things will be getting very uncomfortable at the old Sony boardroom.

And if MS can somehow reduce or eliminate the positive cash flow to Sony from the new product launch that would be devastating for the finiancial future of Sony.

jocko_nc

12-01-2005, 06:41 AM

If they manage to run Sony out of town on their current cash flow, then it will be some other competitor or some other technology. Eventually. My point was that Microsoft's cash cow, their monopoly on PC operating systems, is drying up. If they are going to be selling true consumer products, they had better find a way thrive in a highly competitive environment. Competition is something Microsoft has never seen. Innovation, quality, and customer service have not been their strong suites.

jocko

jocko_nc

12-01-2005, 07:35 AM

Question: Are these units experiencing a high rate of failure? I read the initial buzz, but what is the reality now?

Curious...

jocko

Groundbeef

12-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Question: Are these units experiencing a high rate of failure? I read the initial buzz, but what is the reality now?

Curious...

jocko

Short answer no. They are not experiencing high rate of failure. The buzz you read was correct, it was initial. In fact it is difficult to find many online articles dealing with it past the first couple of days.

If it was a full blown hardware failure, I am sure news reports would be filling the air. Now it seems the reality of the situation is making itself clear.

There is some speculation as to why the shutdowns are occuring, one theory is overheating.
See here :http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=13249

Hope that helps answer your question.

hermanv

12-02-2005, 03:30 PM

As for the rest of your message, it has been dealt with in prior posts. Say what you want, but MS is making any problems with the 360 right.How can you possibly know this? The product has been out for a few days, how many problems are yet to be found, what will be the volume of returned units? Who gets to define right?

Things change, and nothing changes faster than corporate commitments when money is involved.

Not long ago Sony was caught using paid shills to distribute news and reviews. Groundbeef; you seem to have very intimate knowledge, you sound suspiciously like a Microsoft appologist, are you employed or paid by Microsoft?.

hair-old

12-02-2005, 10:17 PM

Box up unit,sell on e-bay,fools are paying up to $1000 for one.

Groundbeef

12-03-2005, 10:47 AM

How can you possibly know this? The product has been out for a few days, how many problems are yet to be found, what will be the volume of returned units? Who gets to define right?

Things change, and nothing changes faster than corporate commitments when money is involved.

Not long ago Sony was caught using paid shills to distribute news and reviews. Groundbeef; you seem to have very intimate knowledge, you sound suspiciously like a Microsoft appologist, are you employed or paid by Microsoft?.

All indications from several web postings (not official MS posts) are that if you are having problems with your XBOX 360, MS will pay for the unit to be returned, sent to repair facility, and returned or replaced.

I don't know what else you expect MS to do about the situation. Granted, it would be great if there was a 100% non-defect rate, but that is unrealistic. As my last link provided, it may in fact be the end user causing the problems as they try to cover up the heat fans on the unit by hiding it in a cabinet when in use. This would be akin to covering up your reciever with a blanket and playing it at a party for several hours at high volume. The heat generated would no doubt cause the reciever to fail.

In any event, no I am not paid by MS. However, the tone of some messages against MS would indicate that some posters must be paid by Sony. I have not commented on any other product that MS makes or sells. This posting started out by questioning if the 360 was failing like mad.

The short answer is no. The second (and bulk) of the posts were about how MS was handling the situation (or not). Again, I don't know what else MS is to do to rectify the situation more than they are. Also dealt with were some of the features left off the 360 that some posters feel were needed. That is a debate we need not rehash.

I am however making money off MS. I pre-ordered 3 of the 360's back in May, shortly after the 360 was unveiled in the E3 convention. I must say, that doubling my money was a worthwhile investment. However, no one here knows my Ebay handle, so its not like I am advertising my auctions.

I may also point out that not long ago Sony was dinged for CD-copy protection that left computers open for virus and trojan horse infection.

Hope that answers your questions. If you are not satisfied by my posts, please feel free to investigate on the Web, just type in xbox 360 failure rates, or other searches. You will find plenty of information.

Have a great day.

Groundbeef

12-03-2005, 02:55 PM

Box up unit,sell on e-bay,fools are paying up to $1000 for one.

There are a lot of other things that people think are foolish to buy, and yet others do. I wouldn't dream of paying $100 or more for a connection to my reciever, and yet there are plenty of them available. (Mainly because I don't have the money, and can't justify paying for them). I think if you got the money, and it is something that you or your family wants, and you can afford to spend it, buy it.

bacchanal

12-08-2005, 10:04 AM

C'mon people...do you know anything about 1st gen computer hardware. Game consoles are not just game consoles anymore...they're quickly becoming HTPCs. The xbox 360 has some brand new technology in it. Those processors were not cheap to develop, the run at a higher clock rate than your average pc, and the only way they are economically feasable at all is with the enormous production scale that comes with a game console. This is really the first time that multi-core processing is hitting the mainstream consumer market. You're talking new processor technology, new motherboard technology, new video card technology, and hooking them all together. Sure it's proprietary stuff, but there are going to be some bugs. The 360 and the PS3 are much more ambitious than their predecesors. $399 is a pretty good deal, and yeah, they are making money on the consoles.

If you think ms makes such crappy products, you should try changing a video card in a Mac or plugging your plug-n-play device into a linux box.

If you expect 100% reliability, don't buy first gen electronics. Especially in the world of microprocessing.

Groundbeef

12-08-2005, 01:14 PM

The 360 and the PS3 are much more ambitious than their predecesors. $399 is a pretty good deal, and yeah, they are making money on the consoles.

If you expect 100% reliability, don't buy first gen electronics. Especially in the world of microprocessing.

I like your post, however, the quote above is a bit off the mark. MS (or Sony) for that matter will not MAKE A DIME off the hardware. This has been discussed and posted in the earlier threads. No money is made off hardware. Its the games and excessories that they pull in the cash.

swicken

12-10-2005, 09:44 AM

jocko_nc

12-26-2005, 07:04 PM

I did have a conversation with my 13 y/o nephew this Christmas...

He was soooo mocking of Microsoft and the new XBox that I was shocked. He brought it up, I did not. Word on his street (consider how that demographic works) is that they were the victims of a horrendous PR stunt that failed miserably: That MS shipped a premature product and scammed people into waiting in line for it. Seriously, he sounded like a middle-aged MS-hater who had been dealing with Windows since 3.0. ???. He has no MS baggage yet was so cynical. I had to laugh.

I asked him how many people he knew with a new XBox. Answer was 4. I asked him how many people had trouble, that is, personally told him of problems. Answer was 2. Anecdotal evidence is worthless, I realize. He and his buddies are saving dollars for the Sony product, whenever that comes out. Whatever, he probably speaks for a good number of kids in the Atlanta area. That story is out there among the young 'uns.

For What it is Worth.

jocko

BinFrog

12-27-2005, 10:33 AM

Xbox 360 has a failure rate that is complete average to anything under the same category.
They're just getting a lot more coverage on it because they sold every single one in next to no time. Everyone complaining in one day makes the overall picture a lot worse.

Exactly. If you ship 3,000,000 units, and .5% of the units have a defect, you're looking at 15000 defective units and if they are all noticed within a week of each other you are going to hear about it! You don't hear about the 2,985,000 fully operational units. Those don't make for good news stories and online gamer gossip.

jocko_nc

12-27-2005, 01:32 PM

Groundbeef

12-28-2005, 06:50 AM

How do we possibly know what the return rate is on these things? The manufacturer just releases their confidential information? I don't think so. Whatever the failure rate is, I guarantee it is not what we are "told" it is.

On another thought, would MS possibly fudge the truth? Ha!

jocko

Actually, as a public company, there is a good chance that the info IS released. There are certain accounting rules that are used for returns/repairs and other such line items. Accounting class was a few years ago, but I am pretty sure about the reporting.
However, all repairs/returns may be lumped together so I don't know how easy it would be to seperate only 360 repairs/returns.

As far as "how would we know" I guess we can either choose to belive MS or not to belive MS. If you don't want to belive the #'s they are giving out, do your own research. It was a pretty hot topic on the 23-25 of November, but you don't hear squat about it now. And you would think that if there was a massive amount of failure after Christmas, it would be in the news now.

After all the 360 was the hottest game toy on the market for Christmas. Lets just be conservative and say 1/3 of the units sold were saved for the holiday, you would expect a similar report of failing units. However, there really isn't. I think that it was a heat issue, that is being addressed when a consumer calls MS for support.