Better sounding CD music desired

[Wezinator]

I've read a lot of threads here regarding CD players; SACD, HDCD, 2 channel vs multi-channel, DVD-A & Universal players and am confused. I upgraded my home theater with B&W DM603 S3's & matching center in a 7.1 configuration using a Denon AVR 2805, playing DVDs and CDs on a Denon 910 single disk player. I don't own any SACD's, HDCD's or DVD-A's. Budget is $500 for the source. Considering a demo Rotel RCD-1072 or NAD 521BEE. I could spend a bit more and get a Denon DVD 2910 to improve both DVD playback CD's, or wait a year for CD formats, etc to become more resolved. Goal is to hear the best possible music out of my new B&W's. Suggestions? Sorry for a long first thread from a novice.

[paul_pci]

I've read a lot of threads here regarding CD players; SACD, HDCD, 2 channel vs multi-channel, DVD-A & Universal players and am confused. I upgraded my home theater with B&W DM603 S3's & matching center in a 7.1 configuration using a Denon AVR 2805, playing DVDs and CDs on a Denon 910 single disk player. I don't own any SACD's, HDCD's or DVD-A's. Budget is $500 for the source. Considering a demo Rotel RCD-1072 or NAD 521BEE. I could spend a bit more and get a Denon DVD 2910 to improve both DVD playback CD's, or wait a year for CD formats, etc to become more resolved. Goal is to hear the best possible music out of my new B&W's. Suggestions? Sorry for a long first thread from a novice.

I have some B&Ws myself (601s) and a nice receiver and all that jazz. Right now my CD player is just the medgadisc Sony player and I like it fine, especially for the convenience and features. I once demoed a $500 player with my system: Cambrige Audio Azur 640. It was a nice player and all, but I didn't think it was $500 great, in that the subtle improvements it made over the Sony, to me, were not worth $500. And I think that's the question you may ultimately face, you'll find all sorts of subtle improvements that will be agreeable or disagreeable, but you'll have to ask yourself: is this a $500, $700, or $1000 improvement.

[Francois1968]

There are 2 good options to make your cd's sound better. One is to buy a new stand alone cd player, The second one is to buy a nice dac.
In case you go for a cd player I suggest you audition the NAD 542. I haven't heard any player in this price range that sounded better.
A nice suggestion for the external dac is M-Audios super dac. If my information is correct you can buy it for less than 200$ in the USA (I paid over 300 Euro in the Netherlands).
I used this dac in combination with a NAD T-562 and I loved the sound.

[Mr Peabody]

Francois is on to something there, you have a transport in your DVD player already just get an external DAC for 2 channel listening. If you don't have any locally to try out check the online sources that will allow you to return if not happy. If you are familiar with DAC's you can find some good deal used. Digital is something that improves fairly rapidly but a used DAC a few years old for $300.00 or $400.00 that was maybe a $1k new is still going to give you better sound than a $300.00 or $400.00 player new.

If you find some brands you are interested in, you can usually Google it and find a wealth of information and reviews.

If you can find any used Arcam CD players in your price range grab it. I've found Arcam to be one of the best price to performance players out there.

[Francois1968]

Hi Mr. peabody,

Agree on Arcam. I replaces my NAD set with the Arcan Diva line. It's great and good value for money I think. :)

[shokhead]

I've read a lot of threads here regarding CD players; SACD, HDCD, 2 channel vs multi-channel, DVD-A & Universal players and am confused. I upgraded my home theater with B&W DM603 S3's & matching center in a 7.1 configuration using a Denon AVR 2805, playing DVDs and CDs on a Denon 910 single disk player. I don't own any SACD's, HDCD's or DVD-A's. Budget is $500 for the source. Considering a demo Rotel RCD-1072 or NAD 521BEE. I could spend a bit more and get a Denon DVD 2910 to improve both DVD playback CD's, or wait a year for CD formats, etc to become more resolved. Goal is to hear the best possible music out of my new B&W's. Suggestions? Sorry for a long first thread from a novice.

I have some of the same stuff as you. 603's and 2805 and my Sony works fine.

[RJW1138]

I haven't heard the RCD-1072, so I don't know this FOR SURE, but the consensus would be that the RCD-1072 and C521BEE are not in the same league. The Rotel allegedly compares with the NAD C542, and the Cambridge Audio 640C. The C521BEE is in a lower class. I replaced my C521BEE with a 640C, which handily destroys it and is worth every penny extra, so I know that much.

I guess what I'm saying is, try them both, but I'm sure you'll find the Rotel is much better than the cheap NAD. Ultimately, you should really try to audition the C542, 640C, and RCD-1072. These are THE players at the $500 new price point.

Of course, if you can stretch your budget up a few hundred more, there's the Arcam CD73T, Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rega Planet 2000, and Jolida JD-100. These are yet again at a better performance level. Whether it's worth it or not is up to you.

If you have any questions about the 640C, fire them my way.

[hermanv]

I am strongly in the external DAC camp. Transports wear out DACs don't. Engineers that design DACs are free to concentrate only on sound, none of this moving parts compromise stuff.

Here is a Musical Fidelity A3.24 DAC widely regarded as a great piece of equipment, it is an upsampler but a litle out of the $500 budget. It does say OBO so the owner might come down to meet you part way.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1137529958

When I went the external DAC route most CD digital ills went away, I've never looked back.

[Florian]

My recomendation is to save 200$ more and buy the Benchmark DAC. Use any CD player as the Transport. This combination will beat all namded here in my opinion and many more for double the price. The Transport makes a big difference but you will notice that in another leauge. Great system ya get there, now get some great equipment to match it!

Cheers

[Woochifer]

If you're using a digital connection for all of your sources, then it won't matter one bit which CD player you use or if you go with an outboard DAC, because the signal ends up getting decoded by the DACs inside your receiver anyway (Denon uses Analog Devices DACs inside of the 2805, which are already pretty good).

Of course, you can go with the analog outputs and use the better DACs and analog circuitry on a high end CD player or outboard DAC. When the DSP modes are switched off, the Denon does pass the analog signal directly to the amplifier section with no further processing. HOWEVER, if you use a subwoofer on your system and the bass management on your receiver is active (i.e. you have the main speakers set to SMALL), then the analog signal from the CD player goes through a redundant A-D/D-A conversion because the bass management/crossover on your receiver is all done in the digital domain.

Because of how the signals on your receiver are handled, IMO, it's only worthwhile to seek out an upgraded CD player if you plan to use the analog inputs exclusively and only listen to music through the main speakers with no subwoofer.

[Florian]

To all those who think a drive doesnt make a difference: I invite you to take any dac and try a Toshiba DVD player and a CEC X1 Transport. If you cant hear a difference then get out of this hobby fast :p

Transports are very important, but not as important as a DAC. So i agree with all exept that the DAC is the only important thing.

[Woochifer]

To all those who think a drive doesnt make a difference: I invite you to take any dac and try a Toshiba DVD player and a CEC X1 Transport. If you cant hear a difference then get out of this hobby fast :p

And how much does that transport cost? Is it within the poster's $500 budget? With the receiver's bass management requiring a redundant A-D/D-A conversion, I doubt that any improvement rendered by a fancy transport would be that noticeable on his system anyway.

[paul_pci]

And how much does that transport cost? Is it within the poster's $500 budget? With the receiver's bass management requiring a redundant A-D/D-A conversion, I doubt that any improvement rendered by a fancy transport would be that noticeable on his system anyway.


Let's not forget, if you're not dropping 5-figures, it's not "real" equipment.

[Florian]

You guys suck, i only meant it for educational value. Stop attacking me, its getting boring. I know that for his system it wont do any good, but its better to tell him so he knows it for the future when goes to a higher realm. Some people upgrade you know

[gonefishin]

I've read a lot of threads here regarding CD players; SACD, HDCD, 2 channel vs multi-channel, DVD-A & Universal players and am confused. I upgraded my home theater with B&W DM603 S3's & matching center in a 7.1 configuration using a Denon AVR 2805, playing DVDs and CDs on a Denon 910 single disk player. I don't own any SACD's, HDCD's or DVD-A's. Budget is $500 for the source. Considering a demo Rotel RCD-1072 or NAD 521BEE. I could spend a bit more and get a Denon DVD 2910 to improve both DVD playback CD's, or wait a year for CD formats, etc to become more resolved. Goal is to hear the best possible music out of my new B&W's. Suggestions? Sorry for a long first thread from a novice.


Hi there...welcome to the hobby. Nice system that you've put together :)


Like some others have mentioned...looking into a new transport may not be the best solution for you, albeit good advice just the same. But a new CDplayer or DAC does sound like a nice option for you. Like was mentioned, you've already got a transport if you've got the DIGital out on your current player, so you have the option of adding a seperate DAC.

Used and demo is also a good way to save money (you just want to be sure that there aren't any problems...and that the seller is reputable). This may be contrary to what many say...but I've owned two NAD cd players and both were poor sounding. I've never heard a CD player so veiled and closed in than the two NAD cdp's that I owned. ANY cd or dvd player would easily perform better. (note that there was nothing wrong with either player and they were in good working condition). Looking at your system...you may like a used Rega Planet. But you have got plenty of options out there...


good luck :)

dan

[Resident Loser]

You guys suck, i only meant it for educational value. Stop attacking me, its getting boring. I know that for his system it wont do any good, but its better to tell him so he knows it for the future when goes to a higher realm. Some people upgrade you know

...condescending, paranoid twit?

Wooch poses a simple question and THAT"S an attack...

"Higher realm"...They have CDPs in heaven(that's of course assuming such a place exists)?

Boring???

jimHJJ(...ZZZZzzzz...snort...zzzz...)

[Woochifer]

You guys suck, i only meant it for educational value. Stop attacking me, its getting boring. I know that for his system it wont do any good, but its better to tell him so he knows it for the future when goes to a higher realm. Some people upgrade you know

Man oh man, someone's been crying in his cereal this morning!

Educational value? Or ego gratification? Puleez

No one's attacking you, only pointing out the absurdity of trying to move the topic over to CD transports that cost upwards of $5k+, when the original poster's total budget for his upgrade is $500. If you already know that for his system it won't do any good, then why bring it up?

And in fact, you're contradicting yourself, since you said that we could "take any dac and try a Toshiba DVD player and a CEC X1 Transport" and hear a difference. Well, why not try the fancy transport with the DACs inside the Denon? (Or do those not qualify under your definition of "any dac"? Since you're now on record as saying that you "know that for his system it wont do any good," I guess you're now looking for new hobbies?

You talk about "higher realm" ... well, where do you think the poster's trying to go by asking us how he can upgrade his CD playback for $500? He wants advice for an upgrade that he's pondering right now. You're "educating" him about an upgrade that in all likelihood he won't ever make (or even see the value of).

[thepogue]

or is that...here here....hmmm....hair hair...oh never mind man....

nicely said Sir Woody, nicely said indeed....now "off with his head!!"


Junuis Poguis







Man oh man, someone's been crying in his cereal this morning!

Educational value? Or ego gratification? Puleez

No one's attacking you, only pointing out the absurdity of trying to move the topic over to CD transports that cost upwards of $5k+, when the original poster's total budget for his upgrade is $500. If you already know that for his system it won't do any good, then why bring it up?

And in fact, you're contradicting yourself, since you said that we could "take any dac and try a Toshiba DVD player and a CEC X1 Transport" and hear a difference. Well, why not try the fancy transport with the DACs inside the Denon? (Or do those not qualify under your definition of "any dac"? Since you're now on record as saying that you "know that for his system it wont do any good," I guess you're now looking for new hobbies?

You talk about "higher realm" ... well, where do you think the poster's trying to go by asking us how he can upgrade his CD playback for $500? He wants advice for an upgrade that he's pondering right now. You're "educating" him about an upgrade that in all likelihood he won't ever make (or even see the value of).

[Mike Anderson]

You might think about moving your music to the computer, and using an external DAC. I did, and now I never use my CD player -- which is fine, because it's completely outdated.

And I'll never have to worry about having another outdated CD player again (which is an inevitability if you buy one now). Once you're on a computer, all you have to do is upgrade your DAC, essentially. And in a few years (or sooner), DACs equivalent to or better than the Benchmark DAC1 will cost less than $500.

[Florian]

I never twisted the tread to transports. In fact i recommended a DAC which is very good indeed. I never mentioned something about 5K for him. I simply said that a Transport is important too and for the future he might upgrade it since some people just say its not important. You guys need to get a life instead of bashing me for having expensive equipment.

The next time i will recommend NAD cdplayer and axiom speakers with ultracables.

[Mr Peabody]

I have a friend who has used several players as a transport and says he can't tell any difference. I'm inclined to believe him because he is designing some DYI speakers and tells me about sudlties he hears from just replacing a cap or some other part. However, I used a cheap TDK CD recorder as a transport into a Conrad Johnson DAC and it sounded like crap. The DAC sounds great either from my Krell or an upper end old Denon player. Unfortunately I have not done a side by side of the Denon and Krell, it's too much trouble. Also my processor digital inputs work great with my DVD player or a Dishnetwork receiver but when I switched to cable the Moxi box would not work with my processor. The factory says they have a fix for it and I'm waiting to get my processor back to see if it works. The factory said the processor was set to work with high quality digital input signals as it is a high end piece so what they have to do is loosen the tolerance of the input so it will work with cable boxes and lesser quality signals. So I am inclined to also believe that there can be a difference in transports, somewhere. I just wonder if you have a good transport whether it's a $500.00 or $5k is there a difference? Maybe the difference is just between BS gear and decent gear. There are hardened camps who will swear either way, I think it comes down to your own experiences.

[thepogue]

Mr. Pea...

I've spent time with a boat load of players in the 1K - 15K price ranges and I found them to be all very close and the quality seems not at all related to dollars spent. It's my belief that you can get great gear at all be the lowest end of the price range. I also know that the less you spend the more your going to have to work at finding that jem-in-the-rough. Conversely once you start shopping around in the upper stratosphere (price wise) more times than not your going to have a higher standard of gear. The irony is that even at the obtusely insane price realm there are "dogs"!! So with all that said at the $500 price point you (we) are going to have to educate ourselfs...and listen more with our own ears then to any advice!! And then "buy used" if at all possible! ( "you" meaning anyone in the market for gear and not "you" specifically, sorry I'm unsure if I'm talking first person, third person or 47th person...too many darn people running round me in me brain ;)

Pogue



. So I am inclined to also believe that there can be a difference in transports, somewhere. I just wonder if you have a good transport whether it's a $500.00 or $5k is there a difference? Maybe the difference is just between BS gear and decent gear. There are hardened camps who will swear either way, I think it comes down to your own experiences.

[hmmmm]

There are 2 good options to make your cd's sound better. One is to buy a new stand alone cd player, The second one is to buy a nice dac.
In case you go for a cd player I suggest you audition the NAD 542. I haven't heard any player in this price range that sounded better.
A nice suggestion for the external dac is M-Audios super dac. If my information is correct you can buy it for less than 200$ in the USA (I paid over 300 Euro in the Netherlands).
I used this dac in combination with a NAD T-562 and I loved the sound.

I know absolutely nothing about dacs. So, if I have a Yamaha rxv-1400 and a Denon 2200 Universal DVD player, a separate dac would make a noticable difference? The speakers are Ar.coms in a 6.1 setup with a 15 inch sealed DIY Subwoofer.

[thepogue]

in my experience.

The latest experience with that issue was a recent upgrade of my transport. I picked up a used (of course) Rega Planet player made '00 to replace an older Parasound 100. I was running an older Adcom outboard DAC (with the Parasound) made in the late 80' maybe early 90's and I assumed that the onboard DAC of the Rega (which had been reviewed as having a decent sound/onboard DAC at it's price point) would replace the aging pair. To my surprise the Rega/Adcom combo bested the Rega alone. I swapped and shifted all the above and found the weakest to be the Parasound alone, then the Rega alone, then the Para/Adcom combo (by a very slight margin), then the Rega/Adcom. The steps/differences between were marginal but from first set-up to last there was a noticeable (3-5% maybe) difference improvement. So after all that blabbering...go pick up a used inexpensive DAC and check it out....if your not satisfied with the improvement for the price spent, resell (and recoup the $$) and call it a lesson! But remember the weakest link in your system should get the $$$ FIRST! And speakers from my experience get the most dramatic bang for buck as far as upgrading sound goes.

Pogue



I know absolutely nothing about dacs. So, if I have a Yamaha rxv-1400 and a Denon 2200 Universal DVD player, a separate dac would make a noticable difference? The speakers are Ar.coms in a 6.1 setup with a 15 inch sealed DIY Subwoofer.

[Mr Peabody]

I was mainly referring the use of transports and players as transports but I agree with Pogue's assessment. There is clearly a big difference between my Krell 280cd and any other CD player i've put against it. I tried a $4,500.00 T+A and I can't say one was better than the other, they just had different interpretations. I preferred the Krell. I tried a Conrad Johnson DAC which retailed around $1,100.00 and was built in 98 or 99 and I was amazed how strong it stood against the Krell. There again, also, two different interpretations of the music. Now the DAC that actually I prefer over my 280cd's internal DAC is the Audio Note 1.1x. The Krell still has strong points over the AN, especially in the bass and size of sound stage. But something about the 1.1x is so much more listenable. It's more natural sounding and seems to have less glare. When listening the the 280cd I didn't notice glare but when comparing to the AN you notice when it's not there. The Conrad Johnson I think would have been a giant killer at it's retail price and still a good piece if you find one used. It still kills anything I've heard for $1k new.

[hermanv]

I know absolutely nothing about dacs. So, if I have a Yamaha rxv-1400 and a Denon 2200 Universal DVD player, a separate dac would make a noticable difference? The speakers are Ar.coms in a 6.1 setup with a 15 inch sealed DIY Subwoofer.
I have not heard your receiver, I did once own an all Denon separates system and I found it too bright and harsh for my tastes. The few Denon pieces I have heard all had this same sonic signature, which I can best describe as sounding "hot". All receivers I have ever heard using internal DACs did not compare to any good stand alone CD players or to sytems with external DACs.

I'm reluctant to trash all manufacturers of all in one boxes; but my guess is that there is so much going on inside the box that they fail to optimize each function independently. I've also felt for years that way too much energy and money was being spent on fancy multicolor bar graphs and other exotic display gee wizz stuff.

I think you will find that a well regarded CD only player or your player with a decent DAC will have smoother, more detailed and involving sound. The kind of sound that invites me at least, to turn down the lights, maybe a candle or two, some wine and a long listening session. Wow, some of those guys can really make music; this in a nutshell is difference between artistry and Pop.

Many audiophiles prefer separates instead of all in one designs, this is presumably because most of them think it sounds better. There is a second reason, with separates you can upgrade one piece at a time. While this may not be the wisest financial technique it does allow those of use with real world financial resources to buy truly high quality sound systems one piece at a time.

ps: One scary note, with separates you will have the pleasure of being introduced to the whole world of analog cables and the raging debates of what difference they make, may you survive unscathed

[Woochifer]

I never twisted the tread to transports. In fact i recommended a DAC which is very good indeed. I never mentioned something about 5K for him. I simply said that a Transport is important too and for the future he might upgrade it since some people just say its not important. You guys need to get a life instead of bashing me for having expensive equipment.

The transport that you brought up costs $5,500, so you indeed did mention something in that price range. You twisted the thread when you talked about how anyone should be able to hear a difference between transports using ANY DAC. I simply pointed out a contradiction in the points you were making, since you admitted that using that receiver, an upgraded transport wouldn't do any good. Well, that receiver has DACs inside, right? And did say that transports would produce audible differences with ANY DAC, right?

As usual, you try to presume that we're somehow attacking you because you own expensive equipment, when in fact, you're getting called out for making contradictory comments that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Even with your expensive equipment, you haven't shown an ability to stay on topic and stay consistent with your comments, only self-aggrandizing and ego-gratification under the guise of "educating" people.

[Woochifer]

I know absolutely nothing about dacs. So, if I have a Yamaha rxv-1400 and a Denon 2200 Universal DVD player, a separate dac would make a noticable difference? The speakers are Ar.coms in a 6.1 setup with a 15 inch sealed DIY Subwoofer.

As I pointed out earlier, the benefit of using an external DAC depends on whether you're using the receiver's bass management to crossover the signal that goes to the subwoofer. If you listen to your CDs without the subwoofer, then you might benefit from an external DAC. With a subwoofer, you likely won't benefit at all from an external DAC because the bass management is all handled by your receiver.

[hmmmm]

"But remember the weakest link in your system should get the $$$ FIRST! And speakers from my experience get the most dramatic bang for buck as far as upgrading sound goes. "
Pogue


Are you saying my speakers aren't up to snuff?...
a tear drops into my cereal:(

Just kidding. Thanks for the advice. I might try finding a used dac and give it a try. I put too much time into building these speakers to replace them for now- it will happen within a year or so though.

[thepogue]

oh heck no...the DOGS gotta go first then!..lol

to be honest I didn't even look at that...my point was that in the scheme of things I seem greater difference in speakers than any other component, especially when you factor in the $$ spend...but my friend if you took the time effort and have the passion to build your own speakers...me hats off to you!! In fact Gonefishin' speakers are some of the finest I've seen...and I'm sure they sound just as awesome!!! The only thing I've ever build was a Peanut Butter Sandwich and I ate that...soooo I guess I'll just remain being a "Audio Vulture"...;)

Now no more tears fer breakfast...and pass the Jelly!
Pogue




"But remember the weakest link in your system should get the $$$ FIRST! And speakers from my experience get the most dramatic bang for buck as far as upgrading sound goes. "
Pogue


Are you saying my speakers aren't up to snuff?...
a tear drops into my cereal:(

Just kidding. Thanks for the advice. I might try finding a used dac and give it a try. I put too much time into building these speakers to replace them for now- it will happen within a year or so though.