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ninetynine
11-09-2005, 07:20 PM
I'd like to upgrade my monster 12awg speaker wire to something that would sound bright and detailed, anyone know of any good affordable bang for the buck speaker wire?

Woochifer
11-09-2005, 07:42 PM
For a short run, I doubt you'll hear a hugely obvious difference in the frequency response by changing to a different speaker cable. If you want a brighter and more detailed sound, the simpler solution would be use different speakers or remove anything in your room that might excessively absorb the high frequency sounds. Alternately, you could simply turn up the treble tone control (if available).

PAT.P
11-09-2005, 07:51 PM
Try a EQ works for me.Try one that is stereo and as feedback detection.

ninetynine
11-09-2005, 07:55 PM
well my room is small and I noticed that I have a lot of furniture in the room and the speakers are placed next to some furniture so there is definetely more bass...

Woochifer
11-09-2005, 08:21 PM
well my room is small and I noticed that I have a lot of furniture in the room and the speakers are placed next to some furniture so there is definetely more bass...

Are you using a subwoofer in your room? Small rooms have all kinds of issues with standing wave formation, which can create boomy peaks as well as low frequency cancellations. An overly boomy sounding bass can drown out the highs and midrange by forcing you to adjust your master volume level to account for the boomy low frequency peaks. If you can, you should try repositioning the speakers. With a two-channel system, that entails pulling them out a few feet from the front wall if you have enough space.

Soundideas
11-09-2005, 08:41 PM
Try some Cryo-Max 2 cable from www.cryo-parts.com The word is getting around about this cable ...they can not keep up with all the orders for this stuff. I think they might make some more of this cable next month some time.......

N. Abstentia
11-09-2005, 09:56 PM
Everything I've heard/read says that Cryo-Crap cable is overpriced junk. I'd avoid.

bfalls
11-10-2005, 05:20 AM
I agree, you shouldn't look for speaker wire which enhances anything (highs or lows). The only way wire can add anything to the listening experience is by changing the inductance, capaictance, or resistance of the speakers xover thus changing what the designer intended. The wire should be transparent. As stated before, placement and removing materials which are absorbing the high frequencies (making the room more live) will have more effect than changing the cables.

LeoFenderBender
11-10-2005, 05:33 AM
Make a comparison of the specs - selecting speaker wire with the lowest possible capacitance will allow more high freqs to fight their way down the wire and make it to the speaker.

As mentioned earlier, short runs won't make a night & day difference.

E-Stat
11-10-2005, 06:25 AM
I'd like to upgrade my monster 12awg speaker wire to something that would sound bright and detailed, anyone know of any good affordable bang for the buck speaker wire?
Two questions.

1. How old is the wire? Basic Monster is notorious for a greenish black oxidation that kills detail. Is the copper still shiny looking?

2. What is the rest of your system? Perhaps the solution lies elsewhere.

FWIW, I prefer cables that seem dark at first blush. All sorts of RF nasties end up adding a brighter haze to many cables.

rw

Greekguy
11-10-2005, 06:43 AM
I'd like to upgrade my monster 12awg speaker wire to something that would sound bright and detailed, anyone know of any good affordable bang for the buck speaker wire?

Keep in mind that different speaker wires will sound different with each system setup; what will agree with one person's ears may not agree with another. Also, if you're looking to get more detail and punch out of your sound system, you might consider investing in a high-quality power cord if your receiver / amplifier supports detachable power cords.

Personally, I've heard a lot of speaker cables over the last couple of years, and one of the best by far, in my opinion, is my current cable, the AudioQuest Bedrock. At one point, this was one of AudioQuest's best cables and came at a hefty price (here in Canada, about $22 per foot + terminations), and can be had on eBay for about $175 for a 10 foot pair. I don't believe AudioQuest offers it anymore, so I think it would be a good investment. I know that once I upgraded to the Bedrock, and also upgraded my power cord on my Yammie (I'm using a Merlin Black Widow), my speakers REALLY came to life... much tighter lows, smoother mids and brighter highs.

Another reason why I suggest the Bedrock as a great all around cable is because I know many audiophiles personally who have $50,000+ audio systems and swear by it. You would think that at the higher end, people would use silver cables, but it's a fairly well known fact that, while silver cable is "faster", it doesn't quite have copper's density and ability to produce as much bass, and as far as copper cables go, you can't go wrong with Bedrock.

But, don't take my word for it... the best thing to do is go into a store which carries multiple cable lines and audition them, and see what your ears like most... experiment, experiment, experiment :)

Might I also add BTW, that I really did my homework on the Bedrock cable prior to buying it, and it is extremely well reviewed. I think you'll find that if you do some research on it, people who have it, tend to like it a lot, as it uses thick gauge, solid copper, and also tends to sound very neutral once broken in. One thing is for sure.... it will beat the snot out of any Monster cable, guaranteed.

Florian
11-10-2005, 07:39 AM
Give these a try....they lack character.

http://www.anticables.com/

markw
11-10-2005, 09:26 AM
Honest audiophiles say that changes due to wires, if any, are very, very subtle,

You either need to reposition the speakers or replace 'em with some that are more to your liking.

Of course, it's your money ...and they want it.

Greekguy
11-10-2005, 09:56 AM
Honest audiophiles say that changes due to wires, if any, are very, very subtle,

You either need to reposition the speakers or replace 'em with some that are more to your liking.

Of course, it's your money ...and they want it.

Mark... it depends on the price point we're talking about here, changes due to wires can have a very profound impact. In this instance, going from standard Monster 12 AWG strand cable to a multiple solid core cable say, such as an AudioQuest Slate or Bedrock, will make a HUGE difference. Braided strand cable, like generic Monster, uses low purity copper, and this affects sound quality greatly, as lower purity copper oxidizes and wears out faster, not to mention that by the time the signal hits the speaker, it's heavily degraded. Cable shielding is also a big factor in sound quality, as the shielding helps to limit the interference coming from "dirty" signals. Generic cable uses either cheap plastic or teflon coating, and that's it, and neither really has any interference absorbing qualities. Braided strand cable, IMHO, also doesn't have the density necessary to carry bass signals like solid copper. If you think that cable changes don't make much of a difference, I suggest you take a generic strand copper wire and compare it to multi-wire solid core cable and you'll see the difference it makes. If you can't tell that there's a huge difference, then something isn't right.

On the other hand, the difference is indeed subtle when you're comparing high end cable to high end cable. For comparison's sake, let's take said Slate / Bedrock cable and compare it to a higher end AQ cable, like Mont Blanc. So-called audiophile experts will say that silver cable is better than copper, but this isn't necessarily true. Yes, silver is indeed faster, but it also isn't very good for lows, because it doesn't have the density of copper. Look at the huge price difference between the Slate and the Mont Blanc; it's about $1,000 difference for a 10ft pair. You're paying for two things with Mont Blanc over Slate; silver vs. copper, and the DBS technology on the Mont Blanc. DBS doesn't do anything except maintain the cable in a constant "broken-in" state, so sonically it's a moot point. As for the fact that it's silver, yes, you might notice better speed from the Mont Blanc, but quality will not be much, if at all better than Slate / Bedrock.

One more point to consider is that your best component is only as good as your weakest link... if you have a great amplifier but crap cable, or vice versa, you won't be realizing either's full potential... you have to find a balance of what works and sounds good in the right configuration, and with all that's available, that's a hard thing to do. Which is why I also said, further up, that investing in a good power cord and power conditioner is always a good idea. It's all about balance, not necessarily the need to go overboard.

Bottom line, your point is valid to a certain degree, it all just depends on the level you're comparing cables at... but if you're comparing Future Shop's crappiest to audiophile grade cable, the difference is like night and day, no question about it. Again though, listen not to the experts, find something your ears like and stick to it... if you like it, who cares about price.

markw
11-10-2005, 11:05 AM
Mark... it depends on the price point we're talking about here, changes due to wires can have a very profound impact. In this instance, going from standard Monster 12 AWG strand cable to a multiple solid core cable say, such as an AudioQuest Slate or Bedrock, will make a HUGE difference. Braided strand cable, like generic Monster, uses low purity copper, and this affects sound quality greatly, as lower purity copper oxidizes and wears out faster, not to mention that by the time the signal hits the speaker, it's heavily degraded. Cable shielding is also a big factor in sound quality, as the shielding helps to limit the interference coming from "dirty" signals. Generic cable uses either cheap plastic or teflon coating, and that's it, and neither really has any interference absorbing qualities. Braided strand cable, IMHO, also doesn't have the density necessary to carry bass signals like solid copper. If you think that cable changes don't make much of a difference, I suggest you take a generic strand copper wire and compare it to multi-wire solid core cable and you'll see the difference it makes. If you can't tell that there's a huge difference, then something isn't right.

On the other hand, the difference is indeed subtle when you're comparing high end cable to high end cable. For comparison's sake, let's take said Slate / Bedrock cable and compare it to a higher end AQ cable, like Mont Blanc. So-called audiophile experts will say that silver cable is better than copper, but this isn't necessarily true. Yes, silver is indeed faster, but it also isn't very good for lows, because it doesn't have the density of copper. Look at the huge price difference between the Slate and the Mont Blanc; it's about $1,000 difference for a 10ft pair. You're paying for two things with Mont Blanc over Slate; silver vs. copper, and the DBS technology on the Mont Blanc. DBS doesn't do anything except maintain the cable in a constant "broken-in" state, so sonically it's a moot point. As for the fact that it's silver, yes, you might notice better speed from the Mont Blanc, but quality will not be much, if at all better than Slate / Bedrock.

One more point to consider is that your best component is only as good as your weakest link... if you have a great amplifier but crap cable, or vice versa, you won't be realizing either's full potential... you have to find a balance of what works and sounds good in the right configuration, and with all that's available, that's a hard thing to do. Which is why I also said, further up, that investing in a good power cord and power conditioner is always a good idea. It's all about balance, not necessarily the need to go overboard.

Bottom line, your point is valid to a certain degree, it all just depends on the level you're comparing cables at... but if you're comparing Future Shop's crappiest to audiophile grade cable, the difference is like night and day, no question about it. Again though, listen not to the experts, find something your ears like and stick to it... if you like it, who cares about price.Some guy here did a fairly exhaustive test between cheapo $15 12 gauge and $1,000 fancy dancy cables. He said he shortened the cheap cables so, for the sake of argument, let's call them $10 cables.

That's about a ratio of 100:1 price differential. For that price difference I would expect to hear a "marked" difference. About four times out of 20 or so he couldn't telll any difference at all. So much for a marked difference based on price, eh?

But hey, it's his money. If he wants to play this game, more power to him. As with all gambling, I hope he can afford to lose.

Greekguy
11-10-2005, 02:39 PM
Some guy here did a fairly exhaustive test between cheapo $15 12 guage and $1,000 fancy dancy cables. He said he shortened the cheap cables so, for the sake of argument, let's call them $10 cables.

That's about a ratio of 100:1 price differential. for that price difference I would expect to hear a "marked" difference. About four times out of 20 or so he couldn't telll any difference. So much for a marked difference based on price, eh?

But hey, it's his money. If he wants to play this game, more power to him. As with all gambling, I hope he can afford to lose.

Well, the whole idea with using better cable is not only to get better signal transfer, but to hear the minor details which aren't always apparent using an inferior cable. There is, though, a price point at which you get diminishing returns; eventually, no matter how much money you spend on cable, there will be a limit as to how much improvement there is.

It's generally said that your budget for speaker cables should never exceed more than 10 - 20% of the cost of your speakers, again keeping the diminishing returns idea in mind. As I said, there's no need to go crazy, and ultimately, only those with very finely tuned ears will ever tell the true difference with lower and higher grade cable. For the casual user, it's not necessary, but if you can afford decent cable, especially when you get it at a super cheap price like I did, you might as well go for it, as you can use them with any speakers you'll ever own.

I'm not disagreeing with you, only that physics need to be taken into account and to understand why some cable really is better than others.

Florian
11-10-2005, 02:46 PM
I think that its impossible to justify cables or say 10 or so percent of the speaker etc...
If it works for you then great, personally i heard the Nordost Valhalla in a personal system for a few hrs and my jaw hit the floor and if i have a couple of grand i will buy that cable. My cables arent too much in my system but i am a believe in solid core cables and the best speaker cable i know is the Magnans which i will eventually buy.

markw
11-10-2005, 03:09 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, only that physics need to be taken into account and to understand why some cable really is better than others....once one reaches a level of satisfaction with their system and they then wish to pursue the dimininishing benefits of more expensive cables, fine.

But, to expect cables to alter a systems overall sound balance in such a manner as this person desires is a fool's errand and to encourage such an expenditure is a cruel hoax. Expensive tires and wheels won't change a Hyundai into a BMW.

He must explore first speaker positioning and their relationship to the furnishings in the room. Then, should that fail, the speakers themselve should be replaced with ones more suited to his tastes.

Florian
11-10-2005, 03:10 PM
...once one reaches a level of satisfaction with their system and they then wish to pursue the dimininishing benefits of more expensive cables, fine.

But, to expect cables to alter a systems overall sound balance in such a manner as this person desires is a fool's errand and to encourage such an expenditure is a cruel hoax. Expensive tires and wheels won't change a Hyundai into a BMW.

He must explore first speaker positioning and their relationship to the furnishings in the room. Then, should that fail, the speakers themselve should be replaced with ones more suitedto histastes.
You hit the nail on the head!

Greekguy
11-10-2005, 03:50 PM
...once one reaches a level of satisfaction with their system and they then wish to pursue the dimininishing benefits of more expensive cables, fine.

But, to expect cables to alter a systems overall sound balance in such a manner as this person desires is a fool's errand and to encourage such an expenditure is a cruel hoax. Expensive tires and wheels won't change a Hyundai into a BMW.

He must explore first speaker positioning and their relationship to the furnishings in the room. Then, should that fail, the speakers themselve should be replaced with ones more suited to his tastes.
Well said, you're absolutely right, and as I keep going back to, it's all about what makes you happy. I wouldn't encourage the purchase of expensive cable unless you get it at a really good price, because that cable could be used on even the best of setups. I consider my own example, in how I got a $700 pair of AQ Bedrock cable for under $200, and I think it was worth it, because to me, they made a drastic improvement in the way my system sounded, and I don't think I'd ever buy another speaker cable.

I'm not trying to say that cables necessarily make or break a system, only that a cable properly matched to a particular setup will make a good setup better. When going from generic braided cable to solid core cable, think of it as going from a 3 Series BMW to an M3; it's tweaking what's good about the car for the best possible performance. For the casual listener, the generic cable may very well suffice, but for those who must absolutely squeeze every last ounce of detail from their system, a good cable will help accomplish that. There's no need to go out and buy Nordost Valhalla or Transparent Opus MM cables or anything like that, again going with what I said about diminishing returns; the price difference between a decent AQ cable and Valhallas or Opuses is tens of thousands of dollars, and it's at that point that you wouldn't notice much of a difference to justify the price tag. But let's face it, there's a reason why generic cable costs about $50 per 100 feet as opposed to a good solid core cable which sells for $500 per 10ft pair. While the untrained ear may not be able to notice much of a difference, the fine-tuned ear will be able to hear the distortion and imperfections of the low grade cable, especially on a good pair of speakers.

Consider this... if you had a pair of elite level speakers, say Dynaudio Temptations, would you use the Radio Shack cable? Are you trying to say that room acoustics would give you the maximum possible performance from such wicked speakers using generic cable? And having great speakers like these, if room acoustics don't solve your problem, would you replace these speakers with ones more suited to your taste??? I sincerely doubt it. You don't need to buy insanely expensive cable either, only one good enough to bring out most of the detail of the speakers. And as I said before, your best component is only as good as your weakest link; you have to find a balance of equipment and interconnects which work optimally with each other, and this is something that can only be learned through experimentation and experience.

Above all else, I'm just trying to get to the bottom line about your original comment, how cable makes a marginal difference; I never once disagreed with you, only tried to say that from the generic stuff to a decent audiophile grade cable, there IS a very noticeable difference, and many things, like room acoustics, clean power and your speakers and source, all play a part in how your system sounds. It's all about finding the perfect balance, and as long as you're happy with your setup regardless, that's all that counts.

E-Stat
11-10-2005, 05:27 PM
I'm not trying to say that cables necessarily make or break a system, only that a cable properly matched to a particular setup will make a good setup better... While the untrained ear may not be able to notice much of a difference, the fine-tuned ear will be able to hear the distortion and imperfections of the low grade cable, especially on a good pair of speakers.
I'm in your court overall, but returning to the original question - I wouldn't say that getting better cables will make a system "brighter".

rw

Eric Z
11-11-2005, 02:33 AM
Are you kidding me? Speaker wire to improve sound that much? Now I think I've heard everything. I understand you shouldn't have some el cheapo 18+ gauge speaker wire, but come on. If you have money to blow, more power to ya!

I have speaker wire that costs $25/ft and it makes my TV picture much brighter- you guys should try it out- please send a check made payable to Eric Z at...

On a serious note, if the speaker wire is damaged or a high gauge, then I would replace it, but the 12 gauge is more than enough to pass the correct info from your receiver to the speakers in an efficient manner.

E-Stat
11-11-2005, 04:50 AM
Are you kidding me? Speaker wire to improve sound that much?
Perhaps you meant to respond to the Greekguy post.

rw

musicoverall
11-11-2005, 05:06 AM
...once one reaches a level of satisfaction with their system and they then wish to pursue the dimininishing benefits of more expensive cables, fine.

But, to expect cables to alter a systems overall sound balance in such a manner as this person desires is a fool's errand and to encourage such an expenditure is a cruel hoax. Expensive tires and wheels won't change a Hyundai into a BMW.

He must explore first speaker positioning and their relationship to the furnishings in the room. Then, should that fail, the speakers themselve should be replaced with ones more suited to his tastes.

I use and endorse high definition cables but they are not to place to start when attempting to change a system's overall tonal balance. They are the final topping on a system that is already properly balanced.

Speaker positioning or room acoustics will go much further to making a system brighter than cables will... or should!

Greekguy
11-11-2005, 08:59 AM
I use and endorse high definition cables but they are not to place to start when attempting to change a system's overall tonal balance. They are the final topping on a system that is already properly balanced.

Speaker positioning or room acoustics will go much further to making a system brighter than cables will... or should!
musicoverall - this is what I've been trying to say all along, but it seems that very few understand what I'm trying to say. Everything has to be balanced overall, and even without taking room acoustics into consideration, going from braided 12 gauge to solid core cable will certainly make a difference. Refer back to my point about speaker cable upgrades being the equivalent of taking a BMW 3 Series and making it an M3 - it's taking what's already good and tweaking it to make it better.

The root I'm trying to get at is, what started the initial debate about all this was that cable upgrades would have little to no impact on sound - depending on just what kind of an upgrade you're making, this may or may not be true. Going from Future Shop's crappiest to, say, AQ Slate, will have a much bigger impact than going from Slate to Nordost Valhalla; in the latter case, diminishing returns. You also have to take into account that some cable will sound better with certain amp / speaker combos than others, and the only real way to tell is through experimentation. Saying that cable upgrades may have little to no impact is like saying that twin turbo in a car may have little to no difference over single turbo... depending on the engine of the car and how much extra horsepower it gets, it may or may not make a big difference, and it's the same for audio, it's contingent on what kind of amp and speakers you've got. The question is how much of an improvement and at what price is one willing to accept.

The only thing I don't agree with markw on is when speaker placement doesn't accomplish what you're out to accomplish, buy new speakers... if you have Dynaudio Temptations hooked up to crap cables, and room acoustics don't solve your problem, what do you do, go buy Evidence Masters??? No, you buy better cables.

This point can be debated until we all turn blue in the face, and there's tons of things one can do to improve overall sound, whether it be cable upgrades, power upgrades, speaker placement, new amplifier, putting your speakers on spikes or whatever else. What it comes down to is that the average person doesn't have the time or money to investigate all the possibilities, so whether cable upgrades should be considered as a starting point or not all depends on the type of cable and equipment and whether or not the speakers are already in their ideal placement. Bottom line, if you've readily got the money and can score good cables at a bargain price, it's certainly not going to hurt. When you then ensure that your setup is balanced and all things, such as room acoustics have been accounted for, and you can't squeeze anything further out of your system, it's then you invest in upgrades.

Keith C
11-11-2005, 09:13 AM
Hello markw,

Glad to see that you are still here. After all these years you still sound like the lone voice of reason calling out for people to think and use independant thought. :) Your gentle and unbashing approach got me to rethink a lot of beliefs that I had adopted that were not my own but really belonged to others. This has saved me a lot of time and money and for this I am very grateful.

Cheers! Keith C.

Bye the way, did eyespy every make his way back here or is he still out racing scooters?

Woochifer
11-11-2005, 11:07 AM
Consider this... if you had a pair of elite level speakers, say Dynaudio Temptations, would you use the Radio Shack cable? Are you trying to say that room acoustics would give you the maximum possible performance from such wicked speakers using generic cable? And having great speakers like these, if room acoustics don't solve your problem, would you replace these speakers with ones more suited to your taste??? I sincerely doubt it. You don't need to buy insanely expensive cable either, only one good enough to bring out most of the detail of the speakers. And as I said before, your best component is only as good as your weakest link; you have to find a balance of equipment and interconnects which work optimally with each other, and this is something that can only be learned through experimentation and experience.

Above all else, I'm just trying to get to the bottom line about your original comment, how cable makes a marginal difference; I never once disagreed with you, only tried to say that from the generic stuff to a decent audiophile grade cable, there IS a very noticeable difference, and many things, like room acoustics, clean power and your speakers and source, all play a part in how your system sounds. It's all about finding the perfect balance, and as long as you're happy with your setup regardless, that's all that counts.

If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use. The bottom line is that the magnitude of variation and audible performance problems that a bad room can create are far greater than any differences that cabling can create. You talk about weakest links in an audio system, well, the room IS a part of the audio system because it directly interacts with the sound that gets created. How would a 14 gauge Radio Shack speaker cable be the weakest link in a room with multiple standing wave peaks and cancellations at the listening position, or audible time domain distortions? If you have those kinds of room problems, swapping out the cables will not overcome them, nor will they even be audible in the first place if your room is creating significant alterations to the tonal balance.

I disagree with the premise that it's about optimizing every link in the system. There are simply some parts of the system that have much greater range of variation than others, and those are the aspects that need to be prioritized. Devoting more of the system budget towards room treatments and going with rudimentary cabling will sound a helluva lot better than an untreated room and optimized cabling. That just reflects upon how huge an effect the room has on the sound quality. The cabling simply pales by comparison in the performance variation from one brand/model to another.

Greekguy
11-11-2005, 12:57 PM
Wooch, you're right, but you're missing my point. I'm trying to merely state why cable makes a difference for sound quality and detail coming from a speaker, not that cable will solve the problem of room acoustics.

The base argument was that speaker cables make little to no difference, when in fact, depending on what type of cable you're upgrading from, they can, and this is the case I am trying to present. If speaker placement is already optimal, and your speakers still sound hissy and distorted because you're using generic cable, then it's time to consider a cable upgrade, because no amount of moving your speakers around will eliminate hiss and distortion. There's no way that generic braided cable can sound as good as a higher end solid core cable, because of both physics and the material used to make the cable.

As for balancing your system, I'm not saying that it's absolutely necessary to balance every component, but that other areas can be improved upon to get better overall sound quality. Instead of making one big upgrade, say your amplifier or your speakers, you can make small tweaks, like power cords and speaker cable, to enhance the detail of your setup.

mystic
11-11-2005, 12:57 PM
If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use. The bottom line is that the magnitude of variation and audible performance problems that a bad room can create are far greater than any differences that cabling can create. You talk about weakest links in an audio system, well, the room IS a part of the audio system because it directly interacts with the sound that gets created. How would a 14 gauge Radio Shack speaker cable be the weakest link in a room with multiple standing wave peaks and cancellations at the listening position, or audible time domain distortions? If you have those kinds of room problems, swapping out the cables will not overcome them, nor will they even be audible in the first place if your room is creating significant alterations to the tonal balance.

I disagree with the premise that it's about optimizing every link in the system. There are simply some parts of the system that have much greater range of variation than others, and those are the aspects that need to be prioritized. Devoting more of the system budget towards room treatments and going with rudimentary cabling will sound a helluva lot better than an untreated room and optimized cabling. That just reflects upon how huge an effect the room has on the sound quality. The cabling simply pales by comparison in the performance variation from one brand/model to another.

I agree that the room is a very important component of a sound system. However, for many listeners making changes to that room to improve the performance of the system is not an option because the room may be a living or sleeping area, and the changes may require unaaceptable alterations to the way the room looks and is used. In these cases, a cable to change the sound might be a reasonable option.

If one is forunate enough to have a room dedicated to listening it makes sense to spend some money on trying to get the room right, rather than spending that money on other components. How much of the budget should go to the room? That's hard to answer. You could go overboard by, for example, by spending ten thousand dollars to optimize a room for five hundred dollars of electronics. However, my guess is most listeners with dedicated rooms don't spend enough on their rooms.

markw
11-11-2005, 01:05 PM
If speaker placement is already optimal, and your speakers still sound hissy and distorted because you're using generic cable, then it's time to consider a cable upgrade, because no amount of moving your speakers around will eliminate hiss and distortion.It's the first part I have problems with. Hiss is caused by an upstream component and distortion could be also, although it could also be a speaker issue. In either case, "hiss and distortion" are not caused by speaker cables.

..sorry...

Greekguy
11-11-2005, 01:33 PM
Re-reading it, those weren't the terms I meant to use.... but in any event, one knowledgeable in these things will be able to hear the difference a proper cable change can provide. As I said a few posts up, we could argue about this all day, but the bottom line is that, depending on what kind of a cable change you're making, it can have a big impact, and bring out the most possible detail from your speakers.

As for the guy who took $10 cables and compared them to $1,000 cables and couldn't tell much of the difference, maybe this wasn't a particularly good high-end cable, because I've personally listened to many super high end cables and just absolutely couldn't stand to hear them, whereas my Bedrock cable brings out the full richness of my setup and I certainly noticed a much better improvement in sound quality over the generic stuff. This also proves my point of diminishing returns, and that some cable is better suited to certain setups than others. I've said all along throughout this topic that there's no need to go crazy in spending big bucks on speaker cables, only that if you can get good cable at a good price, it wouldn't hurt, and would certainly improve a system over generic cable.

Not once am I disagreeing with anything you say, with the exception that if speaker placement doesn't solve your woes, change the speakers as a final solution, and nor do I think that cables will solve the problem of room acoustics. You certainly make valid points and they would definitely help anyone in making informed decisions. The original question posted was "can speaker cable make my system brighter", and while it won't make it brighter, using a good cable when upgrading from the generic stuff will definitely make it sound more detailed and fuller.

bappy
11-12-2005, 03:45 AM
You are to have a expensive tire Hyndai will not become BMW but to get the 100% performance out of Hyndai or any other in that matter you do need to get good tyre and good oil etc. Otherwise the car will remain to perform in it's optimal performance.
You do know what I mean.

bappy

markw
11-12-2005, 05:29 AM
You are to have a expensive tire Hyndai will not become BMW but to get the 100% performance out of Hyndai or any other in that matter you do need to get good tyre and good oil etc. Otherwise the car will remain to perform in it's optimal performance.
You do know what I mean.

bappyIf so, then I respectfully disagree. My reasons were stated pretty plainly above, several times.

If not, then you, and greekguy are still discussing a different issue entirely that was not a part of this thread. It's like the only tool you have is a hammer so every solution looks like a nail. ...either that, or you're preaching on a streetcorner.

E-Stat
11-12-2005, 06:00 AM
If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use.
That simply isn't true. While room acoustics are certainly important, better cables of all sorts can improve resolution throughout the range.

A matter of priorities perhaps.

rw

musicoverall
11-13-2005, 09:15 AM
musicoverall - this is what I've been trying to say all along, but it seems that very few understand what I'm trying to say. Everything has to be balanced overall, and even without taking room acoustics into consideration, going from braided 12 gauge to solid core cable will certainly make a difference. Refer back to my point about speaker cable upgrades being the equivalent of taking a BMW 3 Series and making it an M3 - it's taking what's already good and tweaking it to make it better.

The root I'm trying to get at is, what started the initial debate about all this was that cable upgrades would have little to no impact on sound - depending on just what kind of an upgrade you're making, this may or may not be true. Going from Future Shop's crappiest to, say, AQ Slate, will have a much bigger impact than going from Slate to Nordost Valhalla; in the latter case, diminishing returns. You also have to take into account that some cable will sound better with certain amp / speaker combos than others, and the only real way to tell is through experimentation. Saying that cable upgrades may have little to no impact is like saying that twin turbo in a car may have little to no difference over single turbo... depending on the engine of the car and how much extra horsepower it gets, it may or may not make a big difference, and it's the same for audio, it's contingent on what kind of amp and speakers you've got. The question is how much of an improvement and at what price is one willing to accept.

The only thing I don't agree with markw on is when speaker placement doesn't accomplish what you're out to accomplish, buy new speakers... if you have Dynaudio Temptations hooked up to crap cables, and room acoustics don't solve your problem, what do you do, go buy Evidence Masters??? No, you buy better cables.

This point can be debated until we all turn blue in the face, and there's tons of things one can do to improve overall sound, whether it be cable upgrades, power upgrades, speaker placement, new amplifier, putting your speakers on spikes or whatever else. What it comes down to is that the average person doesn't have the time or money to investigate all the possibilities, so whether cable upgrades should be considered as a starting point or not all depends on the type of cable and equipment and whether or not the speakers are already in their ideal placement. Bottom line, if you've readily got the money and can score good cables at a bargain price, it's certainly not going to hurt. When you then ensure that your setup is balanced and all things, such as room acoustics have been accounted for, and you can't squeeze anything further out of your system, it's then you invest in upgrades.

...that we agree much more than we disagree.

First, I think room acoustics need to be in order, once you've got your main system in place. Unfortunately, room acoustics need to be maximized to a particular system, IME. Changing speakers, for example, caused me to have to tweak my room - which I did first before considering cable changes.

My point was that cables should not make one's system sound "brighter". Quite honestly, I've not heard much in the way of FR changes from cable. When I have, I've discarded that cable from my short list. I do not use cables as tone controls. At least with the cables I've used most, I've found the changes more in the midrange... and with better coherency, blacker backgrounds, more precise imaging and wider, deeper soundstaging. The Cardas cables I use are incredible in these parameters.

I completely agree with your final statement. That is when I auditioned higher definition cables... once all else was accounted for. I wouldn't have maximized my investment in cables had I not taken care of the rest first.

musicoverall
11-13-2005, 09:25 AM
That simply isn't true. While room acoustics are certainly important, better cables of all sorts can improve resolution throughout the range.

A matter of priorities perhaps.

rw

A friend of mine bought new speakers and before readjusting his room acoustics, also bought new cables, which he had intended to do a year or so before the new speakers. He never could get the sound he wanted... the sound he heard while auditioning the speaker at the salon, try as he might.

He then tweaked his room, using all sorts of meters and measurements. The sound improved but still wasn't quite right.

A few months later, I stopped by and listened and said "Wow! You really fixed that room problem. What was it?"

His fix was a third set of cables. He said "If I had only tweaked the room before I bought the Audioquest, I would have passed them over and bought the Nordost in the first place!"

The cables didn't fix the room problem but once the room acoustics were fixed, the original cable simply didn't do the job he wanted. Expensive boo-boo! :)