Audioquest IC improvement

[nightflier]

I have been and audioquest fan for some time and have settled on mostly their lower end stuff (sidewinder, topaz, etc.), but I also have some Jaguar, VDM-5, and Diamondback cables. This past weekend I was helping with a friend's rather expensive setup (arcam pre, vandersteen speakers, marantz dvd, etc.) and was rather surprized that my trusty speakers did not measure up to the fancier AnalysisPlus & MIT stuff he had. We've been debating cables for some time (AQ vs. AP) but never really did side-by side comparisons.

Basically he thinks that brands have their own character, whereas I always thought that the determining factor was the price of the cable. I have also always thought that as long as I wasn't using the included generic cables with a component, that everything else in that price range was pretty much a wash.

We did a few blind tests and there was a marked difference between the AP cables and the cheap stuff from AQ, perhaps I should have expected that. But more importantly, I also tried my trusty AQ Diamondback and Jaguar cables and was still noticing differences. Not that one was better than the other, but they had different personalities, although we really had to crank things up and tweak the music to hear very small differences.

What I've come away with, is that AQ cables whether it's their cheapest stuff or the much more expensive stuff, tends to overemphasize the bass. They also, perhaps as a consequence, seem to have less in the midrange. Is this generally true?

I'm looking to buy a couple of cables to do some more extensive tests at home with my own setup. Can anyone recommend some cables in the $100-300 range that are known to have a notably different sound?

[E-Stat]

I'm looking to buy a couple of cables to do some more extensive tests at home with my own setup. Can anyone recommend some cables in the $100-300 range that are known to have a notably different sound?
I have ICs from two companies that are quite different: DH Labs BL-1s and JPS Labs Superconductor 2s. While clean and not tubby, the DH Labs are a touch on the bright side. The JPS Labs, however, are the converse being more reserved on top. Since they are highly shielded and virtually immune to RFI, they possess no tizziness or edge. I prefer their neutrality and use them in both my audio systems whereas the DH Labs have been handed down to the HT.

The DH Labs run around $100 / meter while the JPS Labs are closer to $300.

rw

[nightflier]

I have ICs from two companies that are quite different: DH Labs BL-1s and JPS Labs Superconductor 2s. While clean and not tubby, the DH Labs are a touch on the bright side. The JPS Labs, however, are the converse being more reserved on top. Since they are highly shielded and virtually immune to RFI, they possess no tizziness or edge. I prefer their neutrality and use them in both my audio systems whereas the DH Labs have been handed down to the HT.

The DH Labs run around $100 / meter while the JPS Labs are closer to $300.

rw

Thanks for the input. I will give the JPS Labs Superconductors 2s a try. They sound like my kind of cable. I wonder what DH Labs's higher end stuff is like...

[nightflier]

I had a pair of silver interconnects a couple of years back and I remember that they seemed warmer and richer than the copper cables. Does anyone else have any opinions about silver vs. copper?

[E-Stat]

I had a pair of silver interconnects a couple of years back and I remember that they seemed warmer and richer than the copper cables. Does anyone else have any opinions about silver vs. copper?
The DH Labs are also called Silversonics because they are silver plated. Some claim that is responsible for their slight brightness.

Having said that, the Harmonic Technology Magic power cords I use for my tube amps, however, are 8 gauge of 99.997% pure silver and are anything but bright. Go figure.

rw

[Greekguy]

I remember reading somewhere that silver cables don't necessarily do much to improve overall quality. The use for silver is that it has higher conductivity than copper, which is why silver cable is considered "faster". However, over a short cable run, of 10ft or less, the improvement between silver and copper cables are not very apparent. I apply the principle of "diminishing returns"; at a certain price point, there will be a considerable increase in performance, but exceeding that price point yields little more performance in relation to the money you spend.

The real audio experts say that for sound, heavy gauge copper is still superior to silver because of its density compared to silver. While silver can transmit faster, copper's conductivity isn't far enough behind that it would really be distinguishable by human ears. Further, because of copper's density, it can carry low-frequency effects better than silver. Overall, if you've already got decent cables, which in this case you do, there's no reason to spend anymore money than is necessary, as the improvement will not be drastic enough to justify the extra money.

Whether silver is better than copper is a matter of personal preference and your listening tastes; if you like a lot of bright, live music, silver may be for you, while copper will easily fit the bill for anything else.

To get to the bottom of your question, as for whether or not a cable in the $100 - $300 range will sound notably better than what you've already got, I wouldn't count on it. You'd have to spend much, much more for a cable that will sound notably better than those you already have, and at that price point, it won't be enough of an improvement to justify the extra money. I say stick with what you've got.

[nightflier]

First of all, thanks for the detailed response. This is helpful.


Over a short cable run, of 10ft or less, the improvement between silver and copper cables are not very apparent.

I can see the physics of this. My cables are 1m & 2m lengths, nothing that would "require" silver, then.


Copper's conductivity isn't far enough behind that it would really be distinguishable by human ears. Further, because of copper's density, it can carry low-frequency effects better than silver.

I consider myself fairly hrd of hearing, and I don't hear many of the nuances that other posters describe unless I really crank it up (beyond the levels that one would normally listen at). There is, however, quite a bit of literature about the purity of that copper. I think the gauge is not as important as its purity.


Further, because of copper's density, it can carry low-frequency effects better than silver.

OK, but that actually addresses the issue I'm trying to isolate. I already have the low frequency covered with my copper cables. What I'm looking for is a way to improve on the midrange.


Whether silver is better than copper is a matter of personal preference and your listening tastes; if you like a lot of bright, live music, silver may be for you, while copper will easily fit the bill for anything else.

So If I understand this right, generally speaking, copper will have more bass, while silver will have more brightness, which I presume to be the upper range. That is not the case with my AQ Sidewinders which tend to be bright as well as bassy in comparison but at the expense of the midrange.


To get to the bottom of your question, as for whether or not a cable in the $100 - $300 range will sound notably better than what you've already got, I wouldn't count on it. You'd have to spend much, much more for a cable that will sound notably better than those you already have, and at that price point, it won't be enough of an improvement to justify the extra money. I say stick with what you've got.

Alright, what if I up the ante and would be willing to go to $500 for a used higher end cable, maybe something that was the "it" cable two years or more ago? What I'm looking for is a healthy midrange. I'm pretty sure it's not the speakers as I have several pairs that I've tried over the past couple of days.

[Greekguy]

What I'm wondering more than anything else is if you've taken power conditioning into consideration. If you haven't invested in a good power conditioner and good power cords, these would be more substantial upgrades than the interconnects themselves.

For your Sidewinder and having enough bass, it's not to say that silver is not capable of doing the job that copper can do in the lower end, but I just think, from my personal experience anyway, that some silver cables, unless in the very high end, tend to overemphasize highs and make them sound kind of harsh, but this could be attributable to a number of other factors. My general opinion is that any good copper cable will do the job that any silver cable can do, unless you really have big bucks to throw at very high end silver cables.

At a higher end with interconnects, say the "it" product from a couple of years ago, you might get more detail, but this is also largely dependant on your source too. If you're using, for example, a lower end, $300 CD player and switched between a low and high end optical cable, I don't think you'd notice much for the simple fact that the source would be limiting the cables. If you have a really high end source, you might get more out of it, but I still don't think enough to justify the extra money.

If you haven't done so already, I'd explore power upgrades.

[nightflier]

Well this is what I have put together:

Source: Cambridge Audio 640
Preamp: B&K PT3-II
Amp: PS Audio HCA-2
Speakers: MB Quart QS830
Power: Monster HTS5100

I have several other cables and components I can connect as well, although this is my best-sounding configuration so far. I'm currently borrowing a pair of AP Oval 9 speaker cables, and I'm using my own AQ Sidewinders between CD and preamp, and AQ Jaguar from preamp to amp. I've switched the AQ around with the same result. These were the cables I took to my friend's house to compare. All the power chords are those that came with the components.

I'm open to suggestions.

[Greekguy]

Yeah, if you're using boxed power cables, I'd definitely explore better power cables. Try to invest in good power cables and get yourself a half-way decent power conditioner too.

[nightflier]

Yeah, if you're using boxed power cables, I'd definitely explore better power cables. Try to invest in good power cables and get yourself a half-way decent power conditioner too.

You don't like the Monster HTS5100?

[hermanv]

Lots of opinions on cables.

If I distill the average, I get this; copper is warmer, silver is more detailed. From what I read the silver plated copper, rather than combining the best of both worlds combines the worst of both worlds. Note: Not all people agree with anything I just said.

When they say copper is warmer, what I don't hear is whether this is due to an emphasis on the mid bass or a softenning of the upper mid. Same for silver, does it in fact boost apparent high detail or soften bass?

The problem is that many of us have carefully tuned our systems by using a cable that is most complementary to the sound we like. So if we have a system that is already on the bright or hot side, a silver cable might be blamed for being too hot. We all know you're not supposed to use cables as a tone control, but if we pick cables that sound best for the system we have, aren't we doing exactly that? How could you possibly intentionally pick a cable that emphasizes what you might already have too much of?

Then there is the other problem of getting used to a certain sound, is the new cable better or is it different and automatically suspect? Does it complement the room treament?

If there was a clear "standard" cable then this would be easier but if such a thing exists no two people currently agree as to whose cable is the one and only.

Is this a great hobby or what?

[Hairsonfire]

I can't believe you folks speak as if cables had qualities and characteristics of speakers. I have some very expensive MIT stuff, both interconnects and speaker cables (750 Plus and 330 Plus) and I would never (can't) claim that they "sounded" like anything. Their build quality is superb and they look very "audiophile" and that is the only reason I have them. I probably could not tell the difference between them and a straightened out coat hanger. Seriously guys, as long as cables are reasonably well built, there is no reason to spend big dollars for perceived improvements in sound. Get some more music for crying out loud!

[nightflier]

I can't believe you folks speak as if cables had qualities and characteristics of speakers. I have some very expensive MIT stuff, both interconnects and speaker cables (750 Plus and 330 Plus) and I would never (can't) claim that they "sounded" like anything. Their build quality is superb and they look very "audiophile" and that is the only reason I have them. I probably could not tell the difference between them and a straightened out coat hanger. Seriously guys, as long as cables are reasonably well built, there is no reason to spend big dollars for perceived improvements in sound. Get some more music for crying out loud!

So you're telling me you spent $330-750 per cable because they look "audiophile"? That seems a lot sillier than what we are discussing here.

I can hear a slight difference, so for me it's worth a little bit more. But I'm very conservative about what I'm willing to spend my money on. That's why I'm asking.

[Hairsonfire]

So you're telling me you spent $330-750 per cable because they look "audiophile"? That seems a lot sillier than what we are discussing here.

I can hear a slight difference, so for me it's worth a little bit more. But I'm very conservative about what I'm willing to spend my money on. That's why I'm asking.

OK, first of all, the 330 and the 750 are model numbers. MIT MH330 Plus Interconnects cost roughly $475 for a 1 meter pair - I have three - one pair for each of my Aragon Dual Monoblocks and one pair for my Rega Jupiter CD player. The MIT MH750 Plus Speaker Cables cost $1200.00 a pair and I have two pairs Biwiring (and bi amped) a pair of Platinum Quatro Listerning Series speakers. Like I said there Nightflier, I would never claim that they (the cables and interconnects) "sound" like anything. However, I am reasonably certain that they don't negatively affect the sound either. What do you mean by "silly?" This whole equipment - music - audiophile thing is, by definition, pretty darn silly, don't you think? So, what is your complaint? That I boldly state that people who describe cables as if they had certain audible charcteristis are full of crap, or that I own very expensive cables despite that belief?

[hermanv]

........That I boldly state that people who describe cables as if they had certain audible charcteristis are full of crap, or that I own very expensive cables despite that belief? And off we go, name calling by the un-informed.

1. Audiophiles have succesfully passed double blind cable tests, this demonstrates that cables not only sound different, but that they do so in a recognizable way.

2. There are maybe 100 companies that make "audiophile grade" cables. Each of these companies must sell hundreds or even thousands of cables to stay in business. This means tens of thousands of audiophiles believe that cables make a difference and all of them are except you are "full of crap". What are the odds?

3. Even the simplistic argument that cables only exhibit R, L and C characteristics ignores the well documented fact that different capacitor dielectrics make amplifiers using those capacitors sound different.

I'm sorry that you can not hear the difference in cables, maybe you or your system is just not up to the task. Count your blessings, save your money, even advise people not to purchase those cables, but don't trash people whose experience or opinions differ from yours.

[Hairsonfire]

And off we go, name calling by the un-informed.

1. Audiophiles have succesfully passed double blind cable tests, this demonstrates that cables not only sound different, but that they do so in a recognizable way.

2. There are maybe 100 companies that make "audiophile grade" cables. Each of these companies must sell hundreds or even thousands of cables to stay in business. This means tens of thousands of audiophiles believe that cables make a difference and all of them are except you are "full of crap". What are the odds?

3. Even the simplistic argument that cables only exhibit R, L and C characteristics ignores the well documented fact that different capacitor dielectrics make amplifiers using those capacitors sound different.

I'm sorry that you can not hear the difference in cables, maybe you or your system is just not up to the task. Count your blessings, save your money, even advise people not to purchase those cables, but don't trash people whose experience or opinions differ from yours.


Dude, 1. Show me one link, one reference, anything at all that proves that audiophiles (or anyone for that matter) "passed" a double blind test of any kind . . . I double dog dare you! 2. It is because of the fact that the overhead for cable manufacturers is so low, and the return on product ($1.75 worth of wire and a $500 price tag) that allows them to flourish. 3. - see #1 . . . and finally - You dissed my system . . . Ooooooh - thems fightin words! I don't think I trashed anyone. So, just go ahead, take your best shot!

[Resident Loser]

Audiophiles have succesfully passed double blind cable tests, this demonstrates that cables not only sound different, but that they do so in a recognizable way.

...in that documentation also...


There are maybe 100 companies that make "audiophile grade" cables. Each of these companies must sell hundreds or even thousands of cables to stay in business. This means tens of thousands of audiophiles believe that cables make a difference and all of them are except you are "full of crap". What are the odds?

And some of 'em don't even take Chinese wires and slap their own label on them...and some of those audiophiles believe in the power of the green marker...and wire-elevators...and eutectic solders...and hospital-grade AC outlets...and bubinga wood boxes filled with proprietary formulations of "stardust"...and, and...What are the odds?

Then of course we have the standard rhetorical fare...perhaps your equipment is not "resolving" enough...or you need to give it time to "burn-in"...or you don't know what to listen for...or the improvement was so pronounced my wife heard the difference on the way back from the dentist...

There are 8 million people in the naked city...

jimHJJ(...only the names have been changed to protect the innocent...)

[hermanv]

I may have stepped in it, I did look for the ABX results references, I remember them clearly, they were about ten years ago and are no longer easy to find on the internet. I did read them and I will find them, be a little patient. I did find some burn marks from the flame wars they caused, so I know they were there once. I write these posts as a work/stress break so I can't devote full time to the task.

Hairsonfire: You wrote your system description while I was writing my response. I didn't mean to dis it really :), to me this seems like equipment that shouldn't have any difficulty exposing cable differences.

On my stuff, the differences while not profound are easy to spot. Non-audiophiles normally react with "you've got to be kidding" if I mention cable sound. When I demonstrate, they find it easy to agree, with much surprise, that different cables sound noticably different.

[nightflier]

Well if it's of any use, this past weekend I did some more DB testing with two friends, and there was a definite narrowing of the midrange in the Audioquest as compared with the Analysis Plus cables. Like I said before, the differences are slight and we had to turn up the volume quite a bit, but the differences are there, all without any "crap" being flung about.

Now the AQ cables had more bass, so at this point it's matter of preference, more than anything else. I only started this thread because I wanted to know if there were any other cables someone could recommend that would contrast even more with my AQ cables.

So Hair,

To repeat my original question, you spent $470-1200 for cables and you've done no comparisons that you can hear?

If it's all the same to you, I'll gladly trade you my old $15 Monster RCA Cables for a pair of your $470 MIT MH330 cables. I'm pretty sure I'll detect the difference.

[Hairsonfire]

Well if it's of any use, this past weekend I did some more DB testing with two friends, and there was a definite narrowing of the midrange in the Audioquest as compared with the Analysis Plus cables. Like I said before, the differences are slight and we had to turn up the volume quite a bit, but the differences are there, all without any "crap" being flung about.

Now the AQ cables had more bass, so at this point it's matter of preference, more than anything else. I only started this thread because I wanted to know if there were any other cables someone could recommend that would contrast even more with my AQ cables.

So Hair,

To repeat my original question, you spent $470-1200 for cables and you've done no comparisons that you can hear?

If it's all the same to you, I'll gladly trade you my old $15 Monster RCA Cables for a pair of your $470 MIT MH330 cables. I'm pretty sure I'll detect the difference.

Like I said, their build quality in superb and they look very audiophile - and - I could afford them. It's like this, I have some reasonably expensive equipment (for me). The first rule of this crazy affliction we call audiophilia is foremost - "do no harm" There are plenty of folks like you that profess to hear differences in cables - whatever . . My point is that while I don't believe there are perceivable differrences, the expensive wire does not hurt the signal either.. While I am not convinced that anyone can hear differences in cabling and interconnects, that doesn't mean I don't want to maintain a certain integrity within my system. Which means, I am not going to connect two amps that cost three grand each to a pair of seven grand speakers and a two grand cd player with some radioshack wire. There may be, as far as I am concerned, no difference in the performance of the mega-buck cables and the radioshack stuff, but hey, I still have to look at it, don't I? It's a "Zen" thing. I feel so fortunate to have decent hearing at all, and be able to have the life affirming and soul-cleansing wonder of musical events recreated in my listening room - That is more than enough for me and, in my opinion, what this stuff is really all about.

[Resident Loser]

...there was a definite narrowing of the midrange in the Audioquest as compared with the Analysis Plus cables...Now the AQ cables had more bass, so at this point it's matter of preference, more than anything else...

"More bass"? Or simply less of something else, like the mids or highs or any permutation thereof, which can skew your reference point? Can cables be made to sound different, given some sort of sonic signature? Can they be a non-adjustable tone control? What does one do to compensate for an overly bright/dark recording? Change the wires? Which link?

jimHJJ(...I'd rather listen to the music than wires...)

[bappy]

Silver is more warm than the copper cable, and it is also very clean and wide as well. Off course you have to have a very strong equipments to play with, otherwise silver will be a disaster.

bappy

[bappy]

I had a pair of silver interconnects a couple of years back and I remember that they seemed warmer and richer than the copper cables. Does anyone else have any opinions about silver vs. copper?

Yea silver is more warm and wide than the copper and also it is very clean and deep. But you have to have a very strong equipments to enjoy silver properly, otherwise in some poor systems it will be a disaster.

bappy

[bappy]

Does anybody has any comments on Guerilla Audio Silver Interconects.

bappy

[Hairsonfire]

I am rolling on the floor laughing my butt off! . . . Warm? Wide? Clean? Deep? I am not saying you guys are morons. However, I have heard morons, and you guys are what they sound like. The emperor is naked! That's right, not a stitch of clothes - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA . . . he he he . . . sniff, choke. But, I digress. Now, where is that green marker for my CD's . . .

[hermanv]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

There are these tweaks: green markers, CD disk demagnitizers, little wooden blocks with leather straps, special wrapping stuff you can wrap around your cables and many, many others. The thing about these products is that hundreds of manufacturers did not spring up overnight to cash in on the river of snake oil.

But there seem to be an awful lot of cable manufacturers, what gives? The audiophile community did not jump up en mass to buy green markers or little round disk stabilizing paper labels or disk de-ionizing spray and a host of other tweaks. But they do buy cables. Selective madness?

With a 3 grand amplifier, 7 grand speakers, 2 grand CD player and hundreds of dollars in cables, your system should be easily capable of displaying tiny details. That why most audiophiles spend the big money, because expensive products produce more information or detail if you will.

After all, my local K-Mart has a complete 5 speaker sound system for $175 that actually plays CDs. Really it works, why spend more? Why, because it sounds awful.

Do you think K-Mart bought the special low priced awful transistors and awful resistors and awful capacitors or is there some small posibility that the purity or kind of materials used somehow (wait that's mighty close to magic) affect the sound quality? Its not the design, you only pay for that once, there's no good reason to cut that corner. It is the materials used. Why is it that hard to believe that the material used inside a capacitor is important but the material used outside not only isn't important but you and others claim it can't possibly be important, ever. The only important stuff resides inside the box not outside the box, that stuff inside the box must be somehow magical.

There is nothing inside the box but metals and plastics and some molten sand or glass bottles full of vacuum (certainly the arangement of the metals and plastics is highly specialized but in the end it's only common material actually found on Earth). The semiconductor houses do not sell transistors in good sound/bad sound models the purity and quality of semiconductor material is impressivly good for all models. So what makes an amplifier sound better if it costs thousands, you must believe it does, only a true moron would spend $13,000 to replace that $175 K-Mart box if he was convinced it sounded the same.

So; stuff inside the box: important because it affects the sound quality, stuff outside the box is not only un-important but can not possibly ever be important - and this is rational thinking? :) No this is just someone who probably has no idea what goes on inside the box and can therefore believe he should listen to others, but this same person thinks he understands cables and can therefore make declarations of absolutes (About inside the box? Hint, there are just electrons flowing through stuff, some of it conducts, kind of like a cable conductor and some of it insulates, kind of like a cable jacket).

(I'm still collecting that ABX data, there is progress a little more patience)

[Pat]

I am rolling on the floor laughing my butt off! . . . Warm? Wide? Clean? Deep? I am not saying you guys are morons. However, I have heard morons, and you guys are what they sound like. The emperor is naked! That's right, not a stitch of clothes - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA . . . he he he . . . sniff, choke. But, I digress. Now, where is that green marker for my CD's . . .
Seems to me the guys are trying to describe what changes they hear when a cable is swapped out for another.......what's the big deal? Just because you have not heard a difference does not mean it does not happen.

[nightflier]

Like I said, their build quality in superb and they look very audiophile - and - I could afford them. It's like this, I have some reasonably expensive equipment (for me). The first rule of this crazy affliction we call audiophilia is foremost - "do no harm" There are plenty of folks like you that profess to hear differences in cables - whatever . . My point is that while I don't believe there are perceivable differrences, the expensive wire does not hurt the signal either.. While I am not convinced that anyone can hear differences in cabling and interconnects, that doesn't mean I don't want to maintain a certain integrity within my system. Which means, I am not going to connect two amps that cost three grand each to a pair of seven grand speakers and a two grand cd player with some radioshack wire. There may be, as far as I am concerned, no difference in the performance of the mega-buck cables and the radioshack stuff, but hey, I still have to look at it, don't I? It's a "Zen" thing. I feel so fortunate to have decent hearing at all, and be able to have the life affirming and soul-cleansing wonder of musical events recreated in my listening room - That is more than enough for me and, in my opinion, what this stuff is really all about.

So I guess that's a no on swapping cables with me? If you want I can spray-paint them in dayglo colors so they look "audiophile," if you want...

[Pat]

Nightflier,
Have you tried the following or many others:
Outlaw cables
Better cables
Blue Jean cables
River cables
Signal cables
Cobalt cables
Vampire Wire cables
Heartland cables
Guerrilla cables

[nightflier]

Nightflier,
Have you tried the following or many others:
Outlaw cables
Better cables
Blue Jean cables
River cables
Signal cables
Cobalt cables
Vampire Wire cables
Heartland cables
Guerrilla cables

I have tried:
Outlaw (SACD two 6-cable sets being used with my SACD/ICBM)
Blue Jeans (Belden/Canare)
Zu (don't have anymore)
Heartland (have the Belden/Canare combo)
Dayton Audio (from Parts Express)
Acoustic Research (Component Cables / their more expensive stuff)
Radio Shack cables (don't have any more)
Monster (mostly their more expensive stuff)

But most of this stuff is used in the TV room. For my 2-channel system, I have mostly AQ stuff and I am borrowing the Analisys plays cables as comparison. Perhaps I should bring some of the Outlaw, Dayton, and Heartland cables into the comparison, too, but that would mean unplugging the family from the Matrix and that would really be unpopular.

Of the mom & pop companies, I suppose I like Belden/Canare Heartlands the best (BlueJeans uses the same stuff, I think). They seem to be very well built (better than the cheap stuff from Dayton, AR, RS, And Monster, for sure), the service from Dan is excellent, and last time I compared them, they didn't seem to add anything to the music; they were neutral. I haven't tried any of their Eichmann/Belden cables, but I am curious. Maybe that should be my first comparison.

[Hairsonfire]

So I guess that's a no on swapping cables with me? If you want I can spray-paint them in dayglo colors so they look "audiophile," if you want...

No hard feelings. I was listening to Renee Flemming this morning . . . God I love this stuff!

[musicoverall]

I am rolling on the floor laughing my butt off! . . . Warm? Wide? Clean? Deep? I am not saying you guys are morons. However, I have heard morons, and you guys are what they sound like. The emperor is naked! That's right, not a stitch of clothes - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA . . . he he he . . . sniff, choke. But, I digress. Now, where is that green marker for my CD's . . .

How is it that someone CAN hear differences in cables and they are a "moron" and "full of crap" and someone that CAN'T is considered the opposite? I always thought the state of being a moron meant an absence of some capability! :)

[hermanv]

I have tried:
Outlaw (SACD two 6-cable sets being used with my SACD/ICBM)
Blue Jeans (Belden/Canare)
Zu (don't have anymore)
Heartland (have the Belden/Canare combo)
Dayton Audio (from Parts Express)
Acoustic Research (Component Cables / their more expensive stuff)
Radio Shack cables (don't have any more)
Monster (mostly their more expensive stuff)
I used to own Monster M-1000 interconnects, they were supposedly highly regarded, I replaced them with The Homegrown Silver Lace. The Homegrown cables were much cleaner had less grain and hash and seemed to meet your request for something that has a little more presence (note: the Homegrowns cleaned up bass and midbass without emphasizing it). I replaced the Homegrown with some WireWorld stuff (I won't mention model or cost for fear of being regarded as nuts). In terms of value per dollar, Kimber seems reliable, I'm told Cardas is, but haven't heard their stuff.

Mostly I used to agree with your original post that there was a strong correlation between price and sound quality. There is a change though, due to the kind of house that sells only labor i.e. they don't make their own exotic materials they buy them and assemble cables.

Although their stuff doesn't seem to compete with the true exotics (read truly high priced) at the mid point in pricing they offer very good sound at a reasonable price. If you want subjectively less bass, I would try the pure silver from any of these houses.

http://www.marc.stager.com/silver/
http://www.bettercables.com/bltrtauinstp.html
http://www.violins.on.ca/cables/lsr14.html
http://www.puresilversound.com/
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/cable_kits.htm (a kit)

There are more of course. Good luck

[Hairsonfire]

How is it that someone CAN hear differences in cables and they are a "moron" and "full of crap" and someone that CAN'T is considered the opposite? I always thought the state of being a moron meant an absence of some capability! :)
I really do come off as a jerk some times . . . I am sorry. In my humble opinion, while there may be measureable differences in inductance, resistance and capacitance in cables, I don't believe anyone can distinguish between any two cables. And, if you really took the time to do a double blind test - you would be convinced too. Go to Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity and do a search. One of their staff did a painstakingly detailed two day event and their results were, at best, inconclusive. But, I need to get off my soapbox. The best approach, I have found, to exquisite sound and listening nirvana is to ensure your system is optimized through speaker placement and acoustic treatment when necessary. Yeah, I have some nice equipment and it's worth it to me. However, I would still be listening to music and enjoying it with less expensive equipment. Diana Krall, Patricia Barber, Cassandra Wilson, Renee Flemming, and so many others - GO TEAM!!!

[E-Stat]

In my humble opinion, while there may be measureable differences in inductance, resistance and capacitance in cables, I don't believe anyone can distinguish between any two cables.
Even capacitance is NOT a constant. Changing speaker caps from merely a different type of capacitor (electrolytic vs. film) for the same value can affect the sound.

Because Home Theatre compared X number of cables and were unable to tell any differences among them only tells you about those chosen. Nothing more. I seriously doubt they had any real high resolution cables in the mix like Nordost Valhalla, Harmonic Technology, etc.

rw

[Hairsonfire]

Even capacitance is NOT a constant. Changing speaker caps from merely a different type of capacitor (electrolytic vs. film) for the same value can affect the sound.

Because Home Theatre compared X number of cables and were unable to tell any differences among them only tells you about those chosen. Nothing more. I seriously doubt they had any real high resolution cables in the mix like Nordost Valhalla, Harmonic Technology, etc.

rw

Valhalla supplied the cable!

Here's the link smarty pants!

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

[hermanv]

Well, my wife and I hear a difference and in the end we are the only ones that matter for our system at least :).

As an electronic engineer I was STRONGLY biased against such a thing being possible :mad:. And I confirmed easily that there was no difference early on in my exposure to the hobby.

Then I upgraded my system and I upgraded my system and... Suddenly where before there was no difference, now there is a difference :confused:. Did I get better at hearing the change, did the upgrade make the difference audible? It doesn't matter.

Do I think "good" cables are reasonably priced. No. I try hard to find cables that are affordable because spending more for a cable than a decent amplifier or pre-amp just seems wrong. The problem is that my personal audio demon is fatigue and I find that the more expensive cables are less fatiguing (sometimes it takes weeks to notice).

Once you've heard your own sytem make truly beautiful, emotionally moving (I mean goosebumps) music, its very hard to go back. If that means paying hundreds for cables, for me that's an easy choice, it just takes time to save up enough money is all.

[E-Stat]

Valhalla supplied the cable!
First of all, Valhalla is not a company. Nordost is the company and Valhalla is a product. That test was anything but scientifically conducted. Read the details.

However, we also cannot conclude that there are no differences... The test was a grand and noble experiment at best and a bust at worst. Make of it what you will.

I gather you have never heard Valhalla in a great system yourself. Maybe sometime you'll get a chance. To hear it long term using familiar gear and music.

rw

[musicoverall]

And, if you really took the time to do a double blind test - you would be convinced too. !

Actually, my participation in what effectively amounted to a double blind test convinced me that there ARE sonic differences among various cables. Since doing so, I've become aware of several amateur DBT's between cables that showed statistically significant differences. One of the problems with the test in your link is the fact that the gear was totally unfamiliar to most if not all the participants. That's not the way to do it. All it does is create nice rhetoric for the value of DBT as well as bogus evidence against cable sonics.

That said, I would certainly agree that speaker placement and acoustic room treatment is a better way to achieve the best your stereo has to offer. However, when all of that has been taken care of, experimentation with cables is one possible way to further upgrade the sound. It's a passionate subject, to be sure, with a fair amount of vitriol on both sides of the slate.