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the hand of boredom
11-05-2005, 07:53 AM
Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

Geoffcin
11-05-2005, 08:18 AM
Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

Although you might have to stretch you budget a bit, the large maggies are an outstanding speaker, and can hold their own against any in the "unlimited" class.

Jimmy C
11-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

...put most of the money in the bank... ya, know... that "rainy day" thing. O.K., your friend owes you a lot... why would you want to burn it up on a stereo? That money is extra... if you had the x-tra already, why didn't you do it earlier? Keep it.

No one can tell you what is best... bring in your pre and listen to as many speakers as possible. I have always thought the pre makes a w-a-y bigger diff in final sound than the amp... it's up to you.

I did like the Kef Ref series (albeit with problems for the $$$), and I have some bigger issues with Martin Logans... but they do some things VERY well. Again, your call.

That's a lotta money... I would look around A LOT!

I would also feel better with a $5K rig and $10 in reserve :^)

RGA
11-05-2005, 07:06 PM
Best advice is not rush and make sure you spend a lot of time at a dealer listening. When I go to an audio shop I usually spend the entire day there listening to stuff with a stop for lunch and to rest my ears. Not many dealers will take the time so find ones who do or take a vacation with your $12k and go to Soundhounds in Victoria BC. That way you can hear several speakers of varying designs. Nice to get a vacation out of the money too and usually Soundhounds turns me on to three or four new artists (new to me) that I can go out and buy albums. You'll be able to hear Mcintosh, Bryston, YBA and MF etc there all in the same room to boot. http://www.soundhounds.com/ They even have Magnepan -- My dealer there used to have the 20.1 and upgraded but he would have insights to offer -- while they don't carry the top line because they want to see how the lower models sell against their other lines you can get a decent idea.

Martin Logan makes pretty good speakers and they look cool. Nothing wrong with them if you like them -- but I would make sure your audition is long -- the one thing I notice is the lack of panel woofer integration so it causes a lack of cohesiveness -- if you don't hear it then bonus and my other quibble is price which is pretty high for what you get. Magnepan has a similar imprint for less money and I find them a better value especially the 1.6 versus say the Aerius i (and ascent) and in some respects the Oddysy, and Prodigy.

I would listen to lots of different systems and be sure to try single ended tube based high efficiency set-ups as well. For the wide range of music you listen to I would want the ability to play everything both macrodynamically and microdynamics with premium low level resolution capability and something that really has the follow through on decay.

point_and_shoot
11-05-2005, 09:14 PM
I would also give Digital Phase a serious consideration. It is what I use and I could not be happier. I have owned Definitive, Snell, Mission, Klipsch, Phase Technology, etc. and I have auditioned a host of others. In my humble opinion these are the very best for the money. As an added benefit you could save about 80% of your budget. (if you did not order the flagship EP line)

dingus
11-06-2005, 11:28 AM
$12k? with that i would start with some Vandersteen 3a's or Quattro's and have enough left over for some nice amplification.

GMichael
11-07-2005, 08:02 AM
Best advice is not rush and make sure you spend a lot of time at a dealer listening. When I go to an audio shop I usually spend the entire day there listening to stuff with a stop for lunch and to rest my ears. Not many dealers will take the time so find ones who do or take a vacation with your $12k and go to Soundhounds in Victoria BC. That way you can hear several speakers of varying designs. Nice to get a vacation out of the money too and usually Soundhounds turns me on to three or four new artists (new to me) that I can go out and buy albums. You'll be able to hear Mcintosh, Bryston, YBA and MF etc there all in the same room to boot. http://www.soundhounds.com/ They even have Magnepan -- My dealer there used to have the 20.1 and upgraded but he would have insights to offer -- while they don't carry the top line because they want to see how the lower models sell against their other lines you can get a decent idea.

Martin Logan makes pretty good speakers and they look cool. Nothing wrong with them if you like them -- but I would make sure your audition is long -- the one thing I notice is the lack of panel woofer integration so it causes a lack of cohesiveness -- if you don't hear it then bonus and my other quibble is price which is pretty high for what you get. Magnepan has a similar imprint for less money and I find them a better value especially the 1.6 versus say the Aerius i (and ascent) and in some respects the Oddysy, and Prodigy.

I would listen to lots of different systems and be sure to try single ended tube based high efficiency set-ups as well. For the wide range of music you listen to I would want the ability to play everything both macrodynamically and microdynamics with premium low level resolution capability and something that really has the follow through on decay.

The entire day there listening to stuff? Do you bring coffee for everyone?

the hand of boredom
11-07-2005, 01:19 PM
how much do the 20.1 speakers go for? I remember hearing the 3.6 a few years ago, and found the presentation to be quite deep, where I prefer the presentation to be more into the room. That said, they were really clean and tranferred alot of info, ie, detail!!!

Florian
11-07-2005, 01:25 PM
The 20.1 goes used for around 11K.

the hand of boredom
11-07-2005, 01:31 PM
Never heard of Digital Phase, and don't know where to get 'em, but that is the power of Google.

I have eyed Vandersteen before but have not had a chance to hear any of their models yet.

Jimmy, thank for the financial plan, do you work for Meryll Lynch or something? I don't need to spend the whole amount on a rig as I'm greatly aware of the laws of diminishing returns.

I essentially spent years building a decent system consisting of Paradigm Reference, Musical Fidelity, Anthem with significant upgrades to each. Had some trouble with roommates, life troubles and the lot, and my best friend showed his true colours and brought me in, until I was able to get grounded again. To show my humble appreciation for his help in turning my life around, I donated my system to him. And over the years I have been as good a friend to him as he's been to me, and helped him deal with things that have gone on in his life.

Soon, he will be repaying me for several favours that I Have done for him in the last few years, including helping with getting his house built. That is where the dough is coming from. Again I don't need to spend it all. Just looking for a well-rounded amp/speak/sub combo.

I appreciate all your input.

What amps can help me fill the void?

THOB

thepogue
11-07-2005, 01:45 PM
it's easy to spend money...even 12K can be gone in a flash...so the REAL question is "What do you want to get for the $$$ spent"? I know that sounds simple...but it's really the bottom line. What sound do you like? (tubes warmth, SS punch, bla bal bla) How long are you going to keep the equipment?...if your heading down the "trade up road" then buy used (ALWAYS IMHO) and start in the middle of the product line. In this way you'll have some true life experience w/ the gear and you can move up the produce line or if it doesn't suit you move to something else...AND not lose yer shirt doing it! alos by living w/ the geag you can audtion other pieces with much more confidence in what your hearing (as opposed to what you own). I've swapped lots of gear in and out of my systme (home) and can tell you ther is no replacement for spending some long hours with gear. As stated above shop around...try lots of dealers and lots of gear...and find something close so you can build a relationship w/your local dealer...it will payoff for the both of you! Just me two cents.


Peace-out, Pogue

Florian
11-07-2005, 01:55 PM
Ok let me take a stab at :D

Used Magnepan MG3.6R for 3200$
New Crossovers for Maggies (internal) 200$
Active Crossover from Behringer for 300$
Conrad Johnson P12 for Mid/Hi for 3400$
Krell KSA250B Europe for Bass for 2400$
Magnan Cable for speakers around 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$

This is a good step in the right direction in my book. But this is 13500$ with no room treatments. So lets see what we can do.

We stick with the 3.6R for 3200$
Build new passive x-overs for 400$
Conrad Johnson P12 for 3400$
Magnan Cable for speakers for 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
Interconnects from Magnan too

This is a system that will put almost all out there to shame and remains in a sane category. 11000$ for it all but you dont want to do that either since its pointless if you dont have the right room and you wont be able to know what steps to take next since this is in a different league then a Paradigm Reference.

So let me take another stab at it.

Magnepan 1.6R used for 1500$
New Crossovers for 400$
A Pathos Logos AMP for 3000$ used
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
1000$ on room equipment treatments.
2x used Carver True Subwoofers for 1500$ total

This is a very satisfying system with a good mixture or all. For 9900$ very good also.

Do you want a HT? What room is it? How much glass do you have? What music do you listen too? If you want some real detailed help then i can give you call and we can chat about this.

Cheers

Flo

thepogue
11-07-2005, 02:02 PM
I told you it ws easy to dump 12G's

Pogue ;)

Florian
11-07-2005, 02:04 PM
I told you it ws easy to dump 12G's

Pogue ;)
And right you are my friend ! :D

RGA
11-07-2005, 06:06 PM
The entire day there listening to stuff? Do you bring coffee for everyone?

No actually they traded speakers years ago for a capuccino making machine that Starbucks would be proud of. They were happy to note that the speakers are now worthless and the Capuccino machino has gone up in value. They make great Capuccino's which makes my 2 hour greyhound trip each way worth it.

I intend to go again but I am waiting to see if they;re going to bring in the 20.1. In May or so they told me they would bring in the 3.6 and 20.1 if sales of the 1.6 and whatever the one down from it sold well. I am a bit surprised because I liked the 1.6 - but they carry stiffer competition when the price gets into the 3k+ range and it's a lot of outlay for a dealer to bring this expensive stuff in since they have to pay for it.

Interestingly, one fellow purchased a $70,000.00 Single ended tube ampllifer from Soundhounds and there is a 7 month wait list as the designer was adamant that the right capacitor be used and there is no substitution and had to wait on the part -- with the dollar fluctuating at the time so much placing an order today and wait 7 months the sale could mean one is out $5k in currency conversion differences -- so the guy had to pay up front in cash as the credit card company also takes 3% and 3% on 70k is real money. Though they gave the guy a loaner Amp for the seven months. A teacher in my town was upgrading his speaker (shipped back to England to get it to a higher level) and they gave him my speakers as a loaner for several months which he in turn loaned out to several audiophile friends in town - as he was going on vacation.

The dealer is pretty darn good in most every way in this regard because lending products around and letting people have it a while to decide and zero pressure people can just compare to whatever it is they currently have. Then Soundhounds can get another sale on the speaker, get more customers, but also maybe get that person's trade in speaker to sell as well. Free coffee and sometimes donuts, new tunes and a lot of stuff to compare. The website does not reflect all that they carry. they bring in stuff recommended to them by people they trust and have a number of stuff they try. They go to the CES every year to see what else they can bring in.

It's the best dealer I have been to by a mile -- though I liked the dealer I had at Commercial Electronics for being a straight shooter and saving me from making bad and expensive upgrades that would have made him more money but not me happy. That is really really rare in my experience.

I felt like a ramble - it's been a while.

thepogue
11-07-2005, 06:25 PM
two hour greyhound trip?...whew...you Da man....within two hours I can be in North Carolina or Maryland 3 hours north to DC...within an hour I'd guess I'm blessed with 8 or 9 dealers..but I really only hang in one shop. Digital Sound, they carry Linn, B&W, Classis, Rotel, Rega, bla bla bla...but all the real deals are used (like snagging my Prodigy's)


next time your on a bus trip...come to virginia!..lol

Pogue

point_and_shoot
11-08-2005, 06:00 AM
Never heard of Digital Phase, and don't know where to get 'em, but that is the power of Google.


This is a picture of Digital Phase's upper end speaker models. I can get you the contact iformation if you so desire.http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/IMG_1908POST.JPG

GMichael
11-08-2005, 09:01 AM
Ramble on if you like.

I guess if he is spending $70k on an amp then he must have enough "disposable income" not to worry about another $5k. "Get me the right d.m capasitor!"

Sounds like a nice day. Bus 2 hours, drink coffee, listen to hi-end systems, lunch, talk them into bringing more in, maybe spend a little, maybe not, more coffee, rest stop, and then bus back. Cool way to spend a Saturday.

I could take the train to NYC. Only about an hour. White Plains has a few hi-end places also. Only about 45 minute drive. Po-town has a couple of small shops. Even closer at 30 minutes. Goshen too, about the same at 35 mins. The wife always makes other plans for us though. Cousin this, uncle that, women! Can't live with them, can't shoot them.

Florian
11-08-2005, 09:06 AM
Ramble on if you like.

I guess if he is spending $70k on an amp then he must have enough "disposable income" not to worry about another $5k. "Get me the right d.m capasitor!"

Sounds like a nice day. Bus 2 hours, drink coffee, listen to hi-end systems, lunch, talk them into bringing more in, maybe spend a little, maybe not, more coffee, rest stop, and then bus back. Cool way to spend a Saturday.

I could take the train to NYC. Only about an hour. White Plains has a few hi-end places also. Only about 45 minute drive. Po-town has a couple of small shops. Even closer at 30 minutes. Goshen too, about the same at 35 mins. The wife always makes other plans for us though. Cousin this, uncle that, women! Can't live with them, can't shoot them. Hey buddy you know whats even better? To be able to actually buy those systems and own them instead of talking and rambling about systems you cant afford :D

GMichael
11-08-2005, 09:14 AM
Hey buddy you know whats even better? To be able to actually buy those systems and own them instead of talking and rambling about systems you cant afford :D

I'm sure that's true. But I don't think that's my lot in life. Too many other expenses. Maybe in a few years I'll have enough saved up to upgrade. Until then, I'll have to tweek what I have (pun intended) and listen to other's systems. It's not so bad though. I like my system.

Florian
11-08-2005, 09:18 AM
I'm sure that's true. But I don't think that's my lot in life. Too many other expenses. Maybe in a few years I'll have enough saved up to upgrade. Until then, I'll have to tweek what I have (pun intended) and listen to other's systems. It's not so bad though. I like my system.
Well buddy, i actually meant RGA. He always writes how he spends days listen to systems in audio shops. Reads magazines and articles from Peter. Can you imagine owning a stereo store and putting up with a person all day who is not able to buy it anyways. Or listening to him ramble on about products he doesnt own, or ever heard. We have a friend in our forum who owns DIVAS and Wilson X2's and its a lot of fun talking to him since he actually owns those toys.

GMichael
11-08-2005, 09:21 AM
Well buddy, i actually meant RGA. He always writes how he spends days listen to systems in audio shops. Reads magazines and articles from Peter. Can you imagine owning a stereo store and putting up with a person all day who is not able to buy it anyways. Or listening to him ramble on about products he doesnt own, or ever heard. We have a friend in our forum who owns DIVAS and Wilson X2's and its a lot of fun talking to him since he actually owns those toys.

I figured you aimed those points at RGA. But you know you really like him. It's like when I was in middle school. We always picked on the ones we liked the most. It was all part of the proccess.

Florian
11-08-2005, 09:49 AM
I figured you aimed those points at RGA. But you know you really like him. It's like when I was in middle school. We always picked on the ones we liked the most. It was all part of the proccess.
Ofcourse i like RGA, he is a freak just like me and i am amused by his responses. :D

SlumpBuster
11-08-2005, 10:51 AM
$12,000? Hmm... Here's one with CD and cassette with two twin twelves. It also comes in a nice case.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-SUPRA-TWIN-TURBO-86K-MILES-RED-TAN-AUTO-TRANS_W0QQitemZ4587435629QQcategoryZ6447QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

the hand of boredom
11-08-2005, 03:40 PM
Ok let me take a stab at :D

Used Magnepan MG3.6R for 3200$
New Crossovers for Maggies (internal) 200$
Active Crossover from Behringer for 300$
Conrad Johnson P12 for Mid/Hi for 3400$
Krell KSA250B Europe for Bass for 2400$
Magnan Cable for speakers around 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$

This is a good step in the right direction in my book. But this is 13500$ with no room treatments. So lets see what we can do.

We stick with the 3.6R for 3200$
Build new passive x-overs for 400$
Conrad Johnson P12 for 3400$
Magnan Cable for speakers for 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
Interconnects from Magnan too

This is a system that will put almost all out there to shame and remains in a sane category. 11000$ for it all but you dont want to do that either since its pointless if you dont have the right room and you wont be able to know what steps to take next since this is in a different league then a Paradigm Reference.

So let me take another stab at it.

Magnepan 1.6R used for 1500$
New Crossovers for 400$
A Pathos Logos AMP for 3000$ used
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
1000$ on room equipment treatments.
2x used Carver True Subwoofers for 1500$ total

This is a very satisfying system with a good mixture or all. For 9900$ very good also.

Do you want a HT? What room is it? How much glass do you have? What music do you listen too? If you want some real detailed help then i can give you call and we can chat about this.

Cheers

Flo

This system would be used solely for the purpose of music in 2 channels only (including a sub). This would be my 'final' system I believe until I finish working and buy a dream system. I listen to all sorts of music... Male vocal jazz, female vocal jazz, Classical, Hip Hop, Reggae.

As I know that I will move at least twice or the next few years, if I do purchase treatments, then they would need to be portable/non-permanent.

I have already a $2000 cd player, pre-amp (although that 'could' be upgraded depending on what choice of amp and speakers I end up with) and all the cables I need. All I'm looking at are speakers (2), amps (monos), and a subwoofer (to which I really, really, really, like the Seismic 10 by Paradigm).

THOB

Florian
11-08-2005, 05:22 PM
Why do you WANT a subwoofer?

Cheers

Flo

RGA
11-08-2005, 05:42 PM
Ramble on if you like.

I guess if he is spending $70k on an amp then he must have enough "disposable income" not to worry about another $5k. "Get me the right d.m capasitor!"

Sounds like a nice day. Bus 2 hours, drink coffee, listen to hi-end systems, lunch, talk them into bringing more in, maybe spend a little, maybe not, more coffee, rest stop, and then bus back. Cool way to spend a Saturday.

I could take the train to NYC. Only about an hour. White Plains has a few hi-end places also. Only about 45 minute drive. Po-town has a couple of small shops. Even closer at 30 minutes. Goshen too, about the same at 35 mins. The wife always makes other plans for us though. Cousin this, uncle that, women! Can't live with them, can't shoot them.

I can get to dealers who are closer but they are not as truthful in their views or carry gear that holds much interest. The dealer needed the money up front because it could eat profit considerably if the dolalr shifted.

The best thing about listening is that you learn fast that price, looks and shmancy designs are not always or even often on the same page with quality music reproduction. It is not necessarily what Soundhounds carries now that is of much interest but what they used to carry and now do not and what the people working there after hearing every big name thing and gadget over the last 30 years - this is what holds more interest. There are many regulars that drop by and listen once a week or more - why pay when you can listen for free? Like they say they have lots of stuff they carry that sells and keeps food on the table and then they carry stuff that is worth owning which they themselves would and do buy for their own enjoyment. They usually bring stuff in for several weeks and months trial to see if sounds any good and run it by several audiophiles to get an opinion. One really famous hot selling sexy looking rave reviewed turntable line they brought in - bought several of them. It was so bad against their two top turntable lines that they had the turntable rep come all the way to BC and listen to his turntable versus the other ones they already carry and try to get him to fix it or make it better.

Despite the fact that this sexy looking turntable maker who is getting virtually all of the rave review press in the Brit mags etc they shipped the ones they did not open back cut the price of the demo in half and got rid of it. I said "but you carry speakers you don't love and they sell" the frank reply went along the lines that the vast majority of speaker buyers buy from the magazines and spend less than 15 minutes listening so they're pre-sold -- we're a big turntable dealer and most of the vinyl clientele spend a lot of time listening before buying and this "piece of crap" may sell to the new breed (read young and inexperienced) vinyl buyer but likely not fool their customers and I don't want the hassle of the returns I'm going to get. With their A line they never get a return unless it is to upgrade to that companies higher models -- they stopped carrying one Canadian sexy looking speaker line because they sold so badly were pretty pricey and the A line improved their finishes which put the nail in the coffin of the Canadian line (the Canadian line is now sold at a big box chain called A&B Sound - so it worked out I suppose for everyone involved - which is good.

The dealer is also quite the repair shop -- they can design, repair and build turntables SS amplifiers tube amps, turntables, speakers etc. They had a quad panel in for repair - a dog peed on the panel it arked and blew both speakers - small fire. The dog was not electrocuted or executed by the owners - lucky dog. The insurance policy gave them enough to buy new Quads -- nice insurance policy.

Dealers are fun to learn a little of the ins and outs of the business for when possibly I become a dealer -- I am still hoping to go to this year's CES and start to finding stuff that I would actually want to listen to day in and day out with all music genres and any disc.

Another ramble for you as you said you didn;t mind :D

the hand of boredom
11-09-2005, 11:48 AM
Why do you WANT a subwoofer?

Cheers

Flo

Yes, I find that it is essential for the music I listen to. I had at one point owned 2 Servo 15s, one now belongs to my friend, the other was sold due to lack of space when I moved into his house.

What do you have in mind?

Took a trip to audiogon.com, had a gander at the used market. Would some used Levinsons be worth while. I have seen nothing but raves about their products, and if the units they have in the Lexus vehicles is any indication about their home equipment's quality, then I'll pay serious attention to Levinson.

THOB

thepogue
11-09-2005, 12:57 PM
If you don't want to "dog" them here PM me if you could, I'd like to know (but I got a good idea). BTW you know I've ribbed you wayyyy longer than most here...but spending time at the shop is the best education you can get. Really has nothing at all to do with what you own or what you can afford. You see what to do, and more importantly what NOT to do...without burning your own $$ in the process. And so many are on the "up-to-the-top of the audio mountain" road that the streets (market) is flooded with great gear at even greater prices! We've got a local heavy hitter that just dumped 150K on a HT system (it's only 80% complete). Believe you me...we (the shop regulars) laugh at as many,if not more, "high dollar" spenders as we do those coming in with a very limited budget....in fact the biggest laugh is those with more money than brains. Diminishing returns is alive and well on earth...but some just don't see it...and that me friend, is the biggest joke of all! Cheers!

Peace-out, Pogue






I can get to dealers who are closer but they are not as truthful in their views or carry gear that holds much interest. The dealer needed the money up front because it could eat profit considerably if the dolalr shifted.

The best thing about listening is that you learn fast that price, looks and shmancy designs are not always or even often on the same page with quality music reproduction. It is not necessarily what Soundhounds carries now that is of much interest but what they used to carry and now do not and what the people working there after hearing every big name thing and gadget over the last 30 years - this is what holds more interest. There are many regulars that drop by and listen once a week or more - why pay when you can listen for free? Like they say they have lots of stuff they carry that sells and keeps food on the table and then they carry stuff that is worth owning which they themselves would and do buy for their own enjoyment. They usually bring stuff in for several weeks and months trial to see if sounds any good and run it by several audiophiles to get an opinion. One really famous hot selling sexy looking rave reviewed turntable line they brought in - bought several of them. It was so bad against their two top turntable lines that they had the turntable rep come all the way to BC and listen to his turntable versus the other ones they already carry and try to get him to fix it or make it better.

Despite the fact that this sexy looking turntable maker who is getting virtually all of the rave review press in the Brit mags etc they shipped the ones they did not open back cut the price of the demo in half and got rid of it. I said "but you carry speakers you don't love and they sell" the frank reply went along the lines that the vast majority of speaker buyers buy from the magazines and spend less than 15 minutes listening so they're pre-sold -- we're a big turntable dealer and most of the vinyl clientele spend a lot of time listening before buying and this "piece of crap" may sell to the new breed (read young and inexperienced) vinyl buyer but likely not fool their customers and I don't want the hassle of the returns I'm going to get. With their A line they never get a return unless it is to upgrade to that companies higher models -- they stopped carrying one Canadian sexy looking speaker line because they sold so badly were pretty pricey and the A line improved their finishes which put the nail in the coffin of the Canadian line (the Canadian line is now sold at a big box chain called A&B Sound - so it worked out I suppose for everyone involved - which is good.

The dealer is also quite the repair shop -- they can design, repair and build turntables SS amplifiers tube amps, turntables, speakers etc. They had a quad panel in for repair - a dog peed on the panel it arked and blew both speakers - small fire. The dog was not electrocuted or executed by the owners - lucky dog. The insurance policy gave them enough to buy new Quads -- nice insurance policy.

Dealers are fun to learn a little of the ins and outs of the business for when possibly I become a dealer -- I am still hoping to go to this year's CES and start to finding stuff that I would actually want to listen to day in and day out with all music genres and any disc.

Another ramble for you as you said you didn;t mind :D

Florian
11-09-2005, 03:09 PM
Diminishing returns is alive and well on earth.
While that is true, there are many systems in the incredibly expensive realms that redefine whats possible and are cleary superior to others.

There are enough speakers that will give you real bass and fullrange response and need no subwoofer. One is the Synthesis 1, Fullrange Apogees, Genesis V, TDL and others. The problem is that you cant just take any two amps and connect it to a speaker to make it sound good. Equipment matching is very important.

-Flo

thepogue
11-09-2005, 04:18 PM
incredibly expensive. At least 3 of the "regulars" (at the shop I hang out at) have systems in excess of 100K....none of which sound 10 X's better than a well put together 10K system...better, yes indeed.....but nowhere near ten fold. So I just lurk...wait for the next upgrade...and BLAM...grab last years "best of".

Pogue



While that is true, there are many systems in the incredibly expensive realms that redefine whats possible and are cleary superior to others.

-Flo

Florian
11-09-2005, 04:25 PM
Does your 10K system sound better then the 1000$ B&W?

thepogue
11-10-2005, 03:48 AM
but that's only because it's in MY house and it's the only one my remote works with...(guys just won't let me take there stuff for a test ride ;)

now to answer your question....

For openers I'll be very frank...I don't like put a dollar sign anywhere in the same subject line when I'm talking about my equipment (unless I'm talking about how much I've saved!) for a couple reasons. First I always try to buy used so the "listed" new price isn't relative. Second it's my view that diminishing returns kicks in (for me) sooner rather than later (different for each component, higher for speakers less for amps IMO) so I don't automatically correlate dollars spent with sound quality. I correlate dollars spent with disposable income. Third to me it's a bit tacky. When someone owns a classic piece, be it a car, watch, stereo ,what have you...the item should speak for itself. If I need to hang a pricetag on it to draw attention to it....I probably got the wrong piece. My favorite example of this is I was at 7-11 (store) in my '70 Impala (I'll try to attach a picture) and this guy came out of the store after buying some smokes and as he's firing one up he goggling over my car...I'm 100% sure he doesn't even see me sitting in it...then he takes a hit of his smoke and realizes I'm sitting in it and he kinda blinks outta it and says "nice ride" I nod...then he get in his brandy-spanking' new top-o-the line Benz (80ish K over here) and heads down the road...I paid 3200 for the Impala...yea...nice ride he says!...gotta love it!

Sorry I'm drifting anyway back to the question.

does my system sound better than a $1000 B&W...I would hope so as a grand doesn't buy much (not from B&W) but as stated my view is that at sub 5K price points well spent money can be easily heard but 5K and beyond..well...we're right back to diminishing returns. Once more point if it's not obvious by now...I'm really really into high-end high priced gear...I'm just not into spending my money to get it...I'm basically a audio vulture, living on left-overs. Please pass the salt!

Peace-out, Pogue

the hand of boredom
11-16-2005, 05:03 PM
Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

Made a trip to a local dealer today along with the repetoire of music. The listening was closed off to me for an hour and I had a chance to hear the Magnepan 3.6R bi-amped with a pair of Moon W8 amps.

Needless to say, I liked the system very much. Definitely many strengths: the speakers do not have a very large footprint, and are very unique looking. The detail is abundant with a very smooth and open soundstage. The highs very natural and as clean as any speaker I have ever heard. Midrange and especially vocals were so fluid and effortless, the little breaths between verses could be heard as well as the licking of some lips. The bottom end was clean; much detail in the plucking of the bass guitar. However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).

The Moon amps are beautiful.

I have made arrangements to go back and listen to the same speakers with the Classe set up, although I really wouldn't mind having a gander at the Cary amps, the sales dude was playing them through the S2s and I liked that combo also.

Geoffcin
11-16-2005, 05:21 PM
However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).



I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.

Florian
11-17-2005, 03:38 AM
Yes the 3.6 Maggies are very good :-) If you want more basspower you can buy two subwoofers or buy a 20.1 which plays quite low but not really low. Without wanting to sound like a broken record, if you want more detail, more air and more bass power look for a used Apogee and rebuild it. For 12K you might be able to buy a new Apogee from Perigee. (www.perigee.com.au (http://www.perigee.com.au))

Good luck

the hand of boredom
11-18-2005, 08:00 AM
I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.

G,

I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.

Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.

Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.

Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?

Thanks again, guys.

THOB

Geoffcin
11-18-2005, 04:11 PM
G,

I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.

Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.

Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.

Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?

Thanks again, guys.

THOB

The whole idea of two subs is that your going to use HALF the output from each. This makes for a very transparent sound. I run my mains full range, and subs crossed over @ 40hz. My preamp has dual outputs so I send the full signal to the subs, and use their own internal crossovers.

the hand of boredom
11-25-2005, 10:12 PM
Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....

There is no comparion.

The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.

I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.

I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.

Florian
11-27-2005, 06:00 AM
Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!

thepogue
11-27-2005, 06:58 AM
I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?

Happy listening!! Pogue



This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....

There is no comparion.

The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.

I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.

I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.

the hand of boredom
11-27-2005, 11:26 AM
Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!

Won't be home tonight,but you can call tomorrow during the day.


THOB

the hand of boredom
11-27-2005, 11:30 AM
I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?

Happy listening!! Pogue

Pogue,

The retail prices in CDN are $5K for the Aeon and $6K for the 3.6R. That particular dealer also has Paradigm's Signature line, Vienna Acoustics (which are absolutley beautiful), and B&Ws at the price point.

Another dealer has JM Labs Prestige and KEF Ref 201s (I heard these a while ago with Musical Fidelity.... oooooooh wee!), and the Monitor Audio GR60 at the price point; $4800, $6100, and $5800 respectively.

This will sound cliche because you hear this alot from people, but I was truly 'blown away' by the 3.6... simply lifelike.

THOB

Florian
11-27-2005, 11:39 AM
Welcome to the boxless world. No box, light membranes, huge surface areas, fast repsonse times etc..Check out my DIVA pics for all ribbon goodness :-)

Are you in canada or the US,.....have to know that for the country code. I tried US 3 days ago but met a answering machine.

thepogue
11-27-2005, 01:48 PM
I know the maggies are out-of-this-world! Glad to see your doing your homework...'memeber to enjoy the trip.

Pogue



Pogue,

The retail prices in CDN are $5K for the Aeon and $6K for the 3.6R. That particular dealer also has Paradigm's Signature line, Vienna Acoustics (which are absolutley beautiful), and B&Ws at the price point.

Another dealer has JM Labs Prestige and KEF Ref 201s (I heard these a while ago with Musical Fidelity.... oooooooh wee!), and the Monitor Audio GR60 at the price point; $4800, $6100, and $5800 respectively.

This will sound cliche because you hear this alot from people, but I was truly 'blown away' by the 3.6... simply lifelike.

THOB

gonefishin
11-27-2005, 02:52 PM
Hello hand O' boredom,

you've taken an awful lot of time so far...nice job :)

I'd also give Bruce Edgar a call and ask if he's got any full TiTan systems in your area for demo (Unless you want to take a tip to SoCal ;)). I know he's got a number of northern neighbors who own EdgarHorns...but I'm not sure of the specifics of each and their location.

have fun!
dan

bedgar@socalrrDOTcom

the hand of boredom
11-28-2005, 11:34 AM
Hello hand O' boredom,

you've taken an awful lot of time so far...nice job :)

I'd also give Bruce Edgar a call and ask if he's got any full TiTan systems in your area for demo (Unless you want to take a tip to SoCal ;)). I know he's got a number of northern neighbors who own EdgarHorns...but I'm not sure of the specifics of each and their location.

have fun!
dan

bedgar@socalrrDOTcom

Thanks for the tip, there, pickerel-king. I have never heard a horn speaker before... so I would definitely be interested in an audition because I might just be taken back. I'll tell you now that it will have to do something special.

I don't mind a DIY project either. That way I have more control to the finish (parts and wire selection).

Cheers.

THOB

the hand of boredom
12-05-2005, 09:50 PM
Dealer gave me a great deal on the Seismic 10, $1200 CDN taxes in!!!!! Too sweet to pass up, so I bit.

As you may be aware, the Seismic is a downfiring woofer, with one passive woofer on each side.

I have the system set up in the basement which I know is a dreadful place for bass. Anyway, I have the sub placed in front of the TV and at the midpoint of the two mains (Monitor Audio B3), ran a set of sines through to find out in absolute disbelief that the response with the mains is flat (+/- 3 db; actual values of 68-72 db) from 30 hz all the way to 90 Hz with the gross exception of a 20 db null centred at 66 Hz:

61 Hz, 68 db
66 Hz, 50 db
70 Hz, 71 db

The room dimensions are 21 ft in length, the back half is 16 ft wide, and the front half is 21 ft wide with a bar at 16 ft (from the left wall).

The speakers are 28.5in from the front wall, the left tweeter is 31in from the left wall and the right tweeter is 96in from the left wall, the centre of the subwoofer is 63in from the left wall and 40in from the front wall.

The prime listening spot is 84in from the speakers (site of SPL readings), however if sitting on the couch, there is an apparent 'deeper' bass response. I'll sit here when listening to reggae or hip hop/rap and I can get disturbed at how deep this thing will play, but if sitting in the prime spot I don't feel or hear anything very deep. I'll sit in the prime spot for jazzier music and I'll be very satisfied at the taughtness, speed and punch.

By placement using any mathematical equations, can someone suggest where to move the sub to get rid of that null?

I will do sine readings for the main-only response and post as soon as I can.

Also, what should I place the sub on? How high off the ground should it be?

THOB