Return from CES

[pctower]

Chuck asked me to take notes and post my observations when I returned from CES. Recognizing that most on this board would view my comments as those of a looney yeasayer and of no interest or value, I decided to post my overall comments on Audio Asylum at:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/307880.html

Also, photographic proof of my attendance can be found at:

http://img.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.pl?u=users/24796&f=PartyPhilTowerDSCN2068.jpg&v=f&UserImages=24796&session=&l=12398&moniker=CES%202004&invite=447527400&w=448&h=479

As for cables, I spent virtually no time investigating them. I’m quite satisfied with the cables in my system and was much more interested in other items.

But, I will offer this observation. After-market cables are bigger than ever in high end audio. I don’t recall seeing a single room at the Alexis Park or the St. Tropez that wasn’t using after-market cables, including power cords (and many also using line conditioners). The naysayers can cite Dunlavey until the cows come home, but he is almost a minority of one at this point in high end audio – at least from what I saw at CES (keep in mind I wasn’t paying attention to cables, so there may have been rooms I visited that weren’t using special cables).

CES is a very expensive, once-a-year opportunity for manufacturers to line up new dealers and I assume that each vendor does everything he can afford to do in order to maximize the performance of his particular system. There are hundreds of rooms to visit and the crowds are daunting. Visitors seem to walk into a room and if within the first minute or so they don’t like what they are hearing they turn around and walk out. The vast majority of high end vendors (if not virtually all) seem to believe that they can enhance their systems through the use of the expensive cables (of course, some equipment and speaker vendors share rooms with cable companies, in which case they don’t actually own the cables being used, but many paid for and own their own expensive cables). This doesn’t prove anything. But certainly the overwhelming majority of high end manufacturers seem convinced that cables do make a difference and are important. At least, that was my observation.

The thing that really surprised me was the major presence of cable companies at the home theater displays at the main convention center. I saw only a small fraction of the main home entertainment displays (the crowds were overwhelming, and this CES brought Las Vegas’ taxis and its transportation system to its knees), but Monster, Tara Labs, AudioQuest, Transparent (used in the Foroudja demonstration) and many others had major displays at the main convention center.

The displays at the convention center are huge, expensive mainline-oriented layouts, and it is clear that after-market cables are very much a part of that market and not just limited to high-end 2-channel audiophiles.

The naysayers may have the upper hand when it comes to demands for “proof”, but from what I can tell they are not even a blip on the radar screen in the high-end audio and home theater marketplaces.

[Tony_Montana]

The naysayers may have the upper hand when it comes to demands for “proof”, but from what I can tell they are not even a blip on the radar screen in the high-end audio and home theater marketplaces.

What does exactly that sentence mean? It doesn't make any sense to me :)

[pctower]

What does exactly that sentence mean? It doesn't make any sense to me :)

Hi Tony:

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been able to demonstrate under proper control conditions and in a scientifically valid way that similar cables of similar length and gauge can cause audible sonic differences.

However, it seems that most high end manufacturers and traditional 2-channel high end customers have concluded from their own personal experiences that choice of cables is important in achieving the sonic results they desire. Accordingly, the manufacturing, sale and use of after-market cables is a significant part of the high end market. Moreover, the importance of cables in the high end marketplace seems to be increasing.

My guess is that most of the vendors at the Alexis Park and St. Tropaz hotels would not think of attempting to demo their systems without cables they had personally chosen in preparation for the show. Among these vendors, the only debate over cables might be which ones are better - not the sole and single debate which exists on this board of whether cables can even make a difference. Even then, I suspect that few of the high end vendors would even want to debate which cable is "best", as I suspect most have concluded that there is no such thing as a best cable - but rather it is a matter of which cables seem to perform best with their particular products and systems.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

[Geoffcin]

Thanks for the CES report. My question is why did this wind up in the cables forum?

[pctower]

I posted here that I was going and was asked to report after I return.

Also, I kind of consider this board my home audio board. Not sure why - I've just gotten used to posting here much more than any other board. Despite all the flack I give people here, I have a great deal of respect for the regulars on this board.

[mtrycraft]

Yes, thanks for the report. I guess I would have been bored to tears there except perhaps to enjoy the craftsmenship and artitic beauty of some of the components.

However, it seems that most high end manufacturers and traditional 2-channel high end customers have concluded from their own personal experiences that choice of cables is important in achieving the sonic results they desire. Accordingly, the manufacturing, sale and use of after-market cables is a significant part of the high end market. Moreover, the importance of cables in the high end marketplace seems to be increasing.

Yes, why would one expect otherwise? If they would have rejected simple wire, customers would start asking deeper questione, why even bother with those expensive sugar pills then too? No difference from many of my comparisons to other consumer markets, beliefs and practices.

as I suspect most have concluded that there is no such thing as a best cable - but rather it is a matter of which cables seem to perform best with their particular products and systems.

So then, there is only one cable to do that with each component? That is what I am reading from this :)

Thanks again.

[Chuck]

Thanks Phil. A very interesting perspective. CES is, as you note, primarily about showing product to retailers, and I've always wondered what it's like for a more typical consumer-audiophile. It would have been interesting to know what kind of answers you'd have gotten if you'd asked people why they selected the speaker wire they were using. In most cases the answer would probably surprise anyone who forgets that it is really all about marketing. CES is so slick and glossy that I think even the pros tend to forget that it's all just a marketing show. The guys over at THE aren't far behind either.

I'm a little surprised that you weren't aware of how popular exotic cables have become. They're very mainstream now. Even Circuit City sells the stuff. Some day exotic wire may be as popular as Bose loudspeakers, but it hasn't reached that level yet. Personally I don't think success in the market place is a good indicator of anything other than good marketing. GM isn't the largest carmaker in the world because they make the best cars. Naysayers don't affect cable sales any more than audiophiles affect Bose sales. It is ALL marketing. There are no exceptions. :)

Did you find that the guys at the THE show were willing to spend time talking audio with you and answering your questions?

[Chuck]

Thanks for the CES report. My question is why did this wind up in the cables forum?

Just before Phil left for the show I asked him to take notes and post his impressions. Guess if you have to shake your finger at someone you need to be shaking it at me. :)

[pctower]

Thanks Phil. A very interesting perspective. CES is, as you note, primarily about showing product to retailers, and I've always wondered what it's like for a more typical consumer-audiophile. It would have been interesting to know what kind of answers you'd have gotten if you'd asked people why they selected the speaker wire they were using. In most cases the answer would probably surprise anyone who forgets that it is really all about marketing. CES is so slick and glossy that I think even the pros tend to forget that it's all just a marketing show. The guys over at THE aren't far behind either.

I'm a little surprised that you weren't aware of how popular exotic cables have become. They're very mainstream now. Even Circuit City sells the stuff. Some day exotic wire may be as popular as Bose loudspeakers, but it hasn't reached that level yet. Personally I don't think success in the market place is a good indicator of anything other than good marketing. GM isn't the largest carmaker in the world because they make the best cars. Naysayers don't affect cable sales any more than audiophiles affect Bose sales. It is ALL marketing. There are no exceptions. :)

Did you find that the guys at the THE show were willing to spend time talking audio with you and answering your questions?

Hi Chuck:

I thought about you while I was at the show and wished you were with me because I know you would have picked up a lot of angles I missed.

I agree with you that success in the marketplace is almost entirely, if not entirely, due to marketing. I personally am unwilling to draw any conclusions even close to a scientific nature from the widespread use of cables.

People at THE show were very willing to discuss their products or audio in general. The one exception was the Audio Research room, which seemed all business. That was a little disappointing to me because they were running the Vandy 5A's and I'm considering upgrading my 5's to the A level. But at least they had a good listening setup and I got a good chance to listen to them in that environment with that system, for whatever that's worth (not a whole lot in my opinion, as room accoustics in particular are so important, as I know you well know).

I'm not sure why I didn't focus more on cables and ask more questions at the show. I wasn't consciously trying to avoid the subject. I just found other subjects to be a lot more interesting. I particularly liked talking to the speaker guys to learn more about their particular approach, because that is obviously where the most difference is going to be. I attribute the performance of the rooms I mentioned in my report as where I was hearing "music" primarily to the quality of the speakers used in each room. I don't know if I'm to the point of concluding that a typical mass produced receiver is the sonic equal to Rowland or Audio Research, but I do believe that once you get beyond a certain point, a properly designed amp isn't going to sound much different than another properly designed amp. Beyond that point, my guess is the manufacturer is primarily playing with frequency response if he wants to somehow "distinguish" his particular amp.

That view of couse is simply my own uneducated guess. But look at this:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/ces2004/sunday/page2.htm (the fourth item down: WAVAC SH-883)

This unit raises so many issues in my mind I feel I could write all day. Broad issues such as allocation of resources in a world where millions are dying of starvation. Ethical issues for the industry such as do we get to a point where responsible industry leaders need to speak out against such excess and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Narrower ethical issues might involve the question of whether it's OK for someone with $350,000 to blow to get ripped off.

Suffice it to say for the moment that I see no way this unit could be justified from any angle whatsoever (a view I would trust just about anyone would share).

In addition, I understand that Dave Wilson demonstrated his Sophia's using an iPod and an inexpensive Parasound amp and in comparison to the Sophia's being driven by some very expensive gear (I believe it might have been Krell). I didn't see the demo but I understand the consensus was that the iPod system sounded better. I know Dave has done similar demonstrations before, such as displaying very expensive electronics while actually using a cheap hidden amp, to demonstrate his contention that speakers are far, far more important than the electronics.

Well, enough for now. What I do know is that the three days I spent there were a total blast. I haven't been to CES for over 10 years, but I forgot how much I enjoy it and hope to return next year. How about you? I'd sure love to follow you around and just listen.

[pctower]

Yes, thanks for the report. I guess I would have


So then, there is only one cable to do that with each component? That is what I am reading from this :)



The magic combination must be predetermined in heaven, don't you think?

BTW, I don't think you would have been bored. The variation in speakers was incredible, which I think you would have appreciated even if you didn't think the elctronics made any difference.

[Geoffcin]

Just before Phil left for the show I asked him to take notes and post his impressions. Guess if you have to shake your finger at someone you need to be shaking it at me. :)

I think the tone of my post must have been misunderstood. The reason I noted it is that the cable forum is like the "deadend street" of the AR forums, I think the post would have gotten a LOT more reads if it was posted to General.

[mtrycraft]

The magic combination must be predetermined in heaven, don't you think?

Just double checking :)

BTW, I don't think you would have been bored. The variation in speakers was incredible, which I think you would have appreciated even if you didn't think the elctronics made any difference.

Yes, you are right :) All those different speakers and different rooms would have made my heard spin :)
But at least I could have enjoyed the sites :) You seem to have :)
If that is not the wife, has she seen it? Understanding after all those years :)

[pctower]

But at least I could have enjoyed the sites :) You seem to have :)
If that is not the wife, has she seen it? Understanding after all those years :)

That's the wife. Think she'd let me go to Las Vegas by myself?

[skeptic]

No matter how much money you've spent, how many different sound systems and different equipment you've owned, or how long you've been interested in equipment (even if you're as old and been around as long as Woodman), there is always some guy out there with something that costs more than you can possibly afford who will do everything he can to convince you that what you have is really not very good and that you would be much happier trading for his.

Yet for all of the claims and hoopla, if you are looking to be convinced you are at the symphony and there is an orchestra in front of you, if you have normal hearing, on a scale of zero to a hundred where zero is never being convinced and a hundred is being convinced nearly every time, the best today's leading edge technology can provide sadly, is about zero. If you are rational, sane, and still part of the real world, you have come to grips with this a long time ago, stopped chasing the rainbows, and settled for someting you can live with and enjoy and no longer worry about what new paragon of electronics exploits the latest buzzwords. I know I did a long time ago. I think PC has too. On the other hand, the true died in the wool audiophile is already scheming how to forgo his kids' college educations and persuade them to go to trade school, convince his wife to agree to take out a second mortgage on his house, and get another five years out of that old heap he drives around in so that he can buy someone's latest creation. Me, I just collect cds and listen to the radio. Heard a really nice performance of the Brahms violin concerto by someone named Hon last night on WQXR. Wonder how she stacks up against Anna Sophie Mutter.

BTW, it is hardly surprising that all of the exhibitors displayed their gear with exotic cables. The manufacturers long ago convinced audiophiles that they must have them and so they are expected. I know if I were showing off new gear to audiophiles, I'd use them too. If you don't, you won't generate much sales interest no matter how absurd it seems.

[pctower]

On the other hand, the true died in the wool audiophile is already scheming how to forgo his kids' college educations and persuade them to go to trade school, convince his wife to agree to take out a second mortgage on his house, and get another five years out of that old heap he drives around in so that he can buy someone's latest creation.

Well said. This is the dark side of the hobby. I believe many are truly addicted, and as with any addiction, the family and others will suffer. At this point it is no longer a laughing matter.

[Tony_Montana]

Even then, I suspect that few of the high end vendors would even want to debate which cable is "best", as I suspect most have concluded that there is no such thing as a best cable - but rather it is a matter of which cables seem to perform best with their particular products and systems.

That statement (which is promoted heavily be Yeasayers) is where everybody gets in trouble, and it is a flawed theory.

If one believes that the best cables are the ones that are transparent (have the lowest effect on the signal), then it is easy to see how "better system, better cables" concept falls flat on its face. It is flawed because it is bad engineering (in part of the designer) if it was true.

Good designers and engineers always take the worst case scenario as far as cable's issues are concerned-and by going this route-every situation that a cable encounter [in the real world] will be covered :)

[RobotCzar]

"However, it seems that most high end manufacturers and traditional 2-channel high end customers have concluded from their own personal experiences that choice of cables is important in achieving the sonic results they desire."

Some reaction to this statement: First, they (people not exhibitors) are not necessarily using these cables for sonic reasons. Some have admitted that they like their looks and they "feel good" with electronic jewelery.

People often buy things that have no function, or buy things with features that have no function. Consider round tail lights on cars. They are in vogue, and seem to be big selling points--if what you see in ads is any indication. They do not contribute to auto performance and safety that I know of.

The point of so-called naysayers is that there are no audible differences in cables, not that there are no differences or that people might buy them for any number of reasons. (The reasons people sell them are clear.) An additional naysayer point would be that the number of people who believe cables make a difference is unreleated to whether or not they really do.

Thanks for the general report. I am surprised that any audio is still presented at the CES. I guess the high end audio guys are still there.

[skeptic]

At this point it is no longer a laughing matter.

Sounds like you've been there. I can't imagine why anyone would throw away their financial security on audio equipment when they could far better squander it on wine. 2003 first growth Bordeaux, here I come.

[pctower]

Sounds like you've been there.

Very perceptive of you.

[skeptic]

From what I've read, a cocaine or heroine addiction habit is more expensive...than audio equipment mania, not wine collecting.

[pctower]

From what I've read, a cocaine or heroine addiction habit is more expensive...than audio equipment mania, not wine collecting.

Fortunately, I passed on those two. Alcohol? Now that's another matter. I had to give up drinking 20 years ago. January 19, 1984 to be precise, but who's counting.

[poneal]

I was wondering why this site didn't have any CES reviews since audio asylum has inundated us with info. It's nice to see that someone made it to CES and is in some way affiliated with this forum. I'm fairly new (less than 2 years now) to this forum and its great to see that someone has posted info about such a large event. Thanks for your input. As far as the last post goes, I bet quite a few of us have had our share of addictions in the past and possibly present including myself. Its great that we somehow overcome them. Have a great day! Paul.