Anyone using Mackie or Corwn amps?

[grampi]

I'm looking at the Mackie M800 and M1400i, and the the crown XLS 402 and XLS 602 as a sub amp to replace the plate amp I'm currently using. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on these amps.

[poneal]

Both names are familiar but I've heard a lot of good things about crown amps. I don't own either one of them but if I were to buy one or the other today, I would go with the Crown.

[FLZapped]

I'm looking at the Mackie M800 and M1400i, and the the crown XLS 402 and XLS 602 as a sub amp to replace the plate amp I'm currently using. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on these amps.


The Mackies have better specs than the XLS line. I have heard they have reliability problems, but I don't have any personal experience with them, so this information is no better than second hand.

Now, I have used Crown. Currently the PB-1(Powerbase, now discontinued) and Powertech(PT). Very good amps. However, since these are all for the pro market, they have internal cooling fans so they will add noise to your listening environment when all is quiet.

If you want a power amp without a fan, you might want to look at a used DC300, or look at the Crown K series(K1), these not only have no fans, but are the most efficient amps in Crown's line-up because of their power supply techology. Of course, you'll pay twice as much, but it depends on what you think is worthwhile.

-Bruce

[grampi]

You have heard the Mackies or the Crown XLS series amps have reliability problems?

[jbangelfish]

I can't speak for the new stuff but some of their old amps seem to be indestructable. I think they were either bought out by or merged with HK and I don't know what that would do for them.
My son still uses my old Crown DC300 A which I bought new in 1975, it's been repaired once for $125 and works as good as new. This amp was claimed by some reviewers to be the finest amplifier ever made (back in the 70's) and it certainly had to be in the top few. I would think it would drive a subwoofer very well with a range from 0 to 100khz. It also has very low distortion which nobody seems to care about anymore. I have no idea how the new ones will hold up or how they sound but I don't think Crown makes any like they used to. The Studio Reference amp from Crown is around $3500 and might be similar to the old amp with even more power.
Bill

[FLZapped]

You have heard the Mackies or the Crown XLS series amps have reliability problems?

Mackies. Again, take it with a bag of salt. -Bruce

[grampi]

Even knowing little to nothing about either of these, they've certainly got to be a step up from this stinkin' plate amp.

[piece-it pete]

Rec'd Hafler DH-200.

I've also "heard" good things about the Crown DC300.

I've never heard either of them :(.

I bet you're right, they'll be better then your plate amps.

Pete

[poneal]

Grampi, just found the XLS 202 on e-bay for $210. This amp can be bridged to provide 500 watts into 4ohms. Not bad at all. Looks like they are getting ready for the new year models so they are going at really good prices. Heres the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2373202308&category=23787

[grampi]

There's also the XLS 602 on ebay for $292, which is a much more powerful amp than the 202. It makes 370 X 2 in stereo into an 8 ohm load. I'd probably rather go with this amp as it would give me more flexibility for future applications.

[FLZapped]

Grampi, just found the XLS 202 on e-bay for $210. This amp can be bridged to provide 500 watts into 4ohms. Not bad at all. Looks like they are getting ready for the new year models so they are going at really good prices. Heres the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2373202308&category=23787


The XLS series is a new model. They are for low-end installs. I don't think they are the best choice myself. If you look around, you'll find good deals on recently retired products such as the Power Base series, or Power Tech series. Again, just be aware that you'll have fan noise to contend with.

Here is an example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372840173&category=23787&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1

If you want to have a look around, Crown's home website is:

http://www.crownaudio.com/

And be PATIENT when doing business on Ebay.

-Bruce

[piece-it pete]

This ones' manual warns against cones bursting into flames (and no fan):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372039275&category=23787

This Behringer looks interesting (450 wpc 8 ohms 20-20k hz .1% THD):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2373351022&category=23787

Pete

[pelly3s]

if you wanna send a little more money go with a crown ce over an xls... the xls makes an awful sound when it clips. i wouldn't go with the mackie.. if you didn't go with crown then look into qsc. just remember with crown amps that power rating is the true power so make sure you have a speaker that can handle it. If you could find one for really cheap go with a crown micro-tech 1200. if you chose to stick with the xls i would recommend going to the 402 just for the head room

[pelly3s]

This ones' manual warns against cones bursting into flames (and no fan):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372039275&category=23787

This Behringer looks interesting (450 wpc 8 ohms 20-20k hz .1% THD):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2373351022&category=23787

Pete

i would avoid behringer by any means... and you don't need a fan i wouldn't want one in a home enviroment anyways. i own the smaller version of the JBL Urie. I have the 6230 they are better sounding than most hifi amps you would spend over a 1000 for. The 6260 is a great amp, one of the best of all time but it always will be second to the crown d-150

[grampi]

What's wrong with Mackie amps? If an amp didn't need a fan for the home environment, why would these companies put them on their amps? Obviously, they think they're necessary. The reason I'm looking at the XLS series amps is because I can't afford paying $500-$1000 for an amp. If I could, I wouldn't be looking at the lower end amps.

[FLZapped]

What's wrong with Mackie amps? If an amp didn't need a fan for the home environment, why would these companies put them on their amps? Obviously, they think they're necessary. The reason I'm looking at the XLS series amps is because I can't afford paying $500-$1000 for an amp. If I could, I wouldn't be looking at the lower end amps.


Couple reasons.

1) They are more likely to be run near their maximum output.

2) In order to save weight and make them more mechanically robust, finned heatsinks were reduced in size, or eliminated in favor of forced air cooling.

Don't know about Mackie, but if you look into a crown(PB or PT series specifically) you'll see the output devices mounted on a flat plate near the air exhaust outlet.

-Bruce

[grampi]

Couple reasons.

1) They are more likely to be run near their maximum output.

2) In order to save weight and make them more mechanically robust, finned heatsinks were reduced in size, or eliminated in favor of forced air cooling.

Don't know about Mackie, but if you look into a crown(PB or PT series specifically) you'll see the output devices mounted on a flat plate near the air exhaust outlet.

-Bruce

Maybe I don't quite understand your #1 statement. The XLS series amp I'm looking at is the 602, which would be connected in stereo, each channel being connected to one of the voice coils on my Tempest sub. The amp pushes 370watts X 2 into 8 ohms, which is the impedence of each voice coil. I seriously doubt the Tempest would ever see this amp's full power. You'd have to be pushing the system very hard to make the amp push full power. I never push my system that hard.

As far as cooling goes, what's the difference if the amp is cooled by heatsinks or fans, as long as they're cooled properly?

[jbangelfish]

Well, a fan will eventually wear out, heat sinks won't. Other than that, there should not be much difference. If you can still hear the fan when music is playing, you need to turn your music up or get a quieter fan.
An old DC300A would be a great choice for your sub amp in my honest opinion. There are 3 of them currently on ebay and it does not appear that any of them will reach $200. This would give all the quality power that you could ever want to your sub and is likely to be 10 times better than the new Crown amp that you are looking at. These amps sold for around $1200 to $1300 in the mid 70's and the only thing that Crown makes today that would compare is over $3500, their Studio Reference. They have always had one or two expensive amps in their lineup and they were always world class amps. The old DC300A was considered by many to be the best amp of it's day and would be better than most amps that are being made today. Naturally, there are better amps but I would hope with the costs rising into many thousands of dollars and up to 100k or so, that they would indeed be alittle better. As I said before, my son is still using my DC300A that I bought new in 1975 and it works just fine. Still a very fine amplifier.
Bill

[grampi]

What are the power ratings for the DC300A? Is it bridgeable? What impedences is it stable into?

[grampi]

More amp stuff. I noticed the DC300A is listed as having 150 Watts per channel. I don't think it's going to have enough power for what I need. I'm looking for a minimum of 250W per channel, or between 500W-800W in mono.

Are the Crown CE series amps better than XLS series? What about the Samson F800? The only problem I see with this amp is there are no power ratings given for an 8 ohm load. It's rated at 400 X 2 into 4 ohms, or 800 X 1 into ohms. Are Carver amps any good? Don't know much about the Mackies, but I still say they look prety darn good. They've got some durn good specs.

[jbangelfish]

You won't find a more stable amp, able to drive one ohm loads. It is bridgeable but has to be done internally. I would probably have a tech do it but the owner's manual explains how to do it. The amp is very conservatively rated at 155wpc at 8 ohm. My son's tested on the bench to 188wpc, 8 ohm, last year. It is rated at 650w when bridged mono in 8 ohm and would be a very strong 650 as opposed to these newer lightweights. I have seen these amps (DC300A's) in use at rock concerts and many used them for PA and professional work. They seem to be indestructable.
I don't know much about the newer Crown but I'm leery of them unless talking about the Studio Reference series. Most of them are fairly inexpensive professional equipment and are still considered durable but for home stereo use, the old DC300A and a very few of their others would outperform any of their new equipment.
I have never heard of the Samson and that scares me. Carver made some good and some bad amps and I don't know which are which. If it's McIntosh that you are referring to as Mackie, this may have been the only amp to be as good or better than the old Crown in the 70's but it used to cost twice as much. Marantz also made some fine equipment back then. At $150 to $250 for an old Crown DC300A in good working order, I don't know that you could find more bang for the buck in a true quality amplifier.
Bill

[grampi]

What kind of power does the DC300A make bridged into 4 ohms? Is it stable to bridge it into 4 ohms? My Tempest has two 8 ohm voice coils, so if I were to connect a bridged DC300A to the Tempest, the VC's would either have to be paralleled, presenting a 4 ohm load, or seriesed, presenting a 16 ohm load. If it makes 650 watts bridged into 8 ohms, I would guess it makes substantially more brideged into 4 ohms.

Actually the Mackie amp I'm talking about is made by Mackie. The model number is M1400i, and it looks like a very impressive amp. I've seen the spec sheet for this amp and it has very impressive numbers. I'm surprise more people haven't heard of this amp.

[grampi]

Are Altec Lansing amps any good? There's a 9444B/SA listed on ebay with a high bid of less than $100. It say it makes 300W per cahnnel in stereo, 600W bridged.

[grampi]

I'm getting to where I can't stand ebay anymore. You used to be able to get good buys there, but lately it seems like too many people use it and by the time a particular item gets to the end of its time period, the bids on it are so stinkin' high its just not worth bidding on. I've been looking at amps in there and it seems like everyone knows which ones are the amps worth bidding on, so everybody keeps bidding on them until they drive the price through the roof! I guess there's just no place in the home audio world for poor guys like me!

[piece-it pete]

What kind of power does the DC300A make bridged into 4 ohms? Is it stable to bridge it into 4 ohms? My Tempest has two 8 ohm voice coils, so if I were to connect a bridged DC300A to the Tempest, the VC's would either have to be paralleled, presenting a 4 ohm load, or seriesed, presenting a 16 ohm load. If it makes 650 watts bridged into 8 ohms, I would guess it makes substantially more brideged into 4 ohms.

Actually the Mackie amp I'm talking about is made by Mackie. The model number is M1400i, and it looks like a very impressive amp. I've seen the spec sheet for this amp and it has very impressive numbers. I'm surprise more people haven't heard of this amp.

Link to manual:

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/dc300aim.pdf

It doesn't say what the 4 ohm rating is but I'll bet it's impressive. I'm sure the last time I checked out this amp it was 300 wpc. Some other things about the specs that impress me:

1) Rated power bandwidth: 1hz to 20 khz. 1hz?! Sounds like a good sub amp to me, particularly considering +/- .1db (!!) freq. response from DC (again, !!) to 20khz, 1 db from DC to 100khz. I'll bet those low-end numbers put a lot of new dedicated sub amps to shame!

2) "Load impedance: Rated for 8 ohms usage, safely drives any load including completely reactive loads." I'm not positive, but doesn't that last bit mean down to zero?

3) >750 damping factor. Low IM distortion. The fact that they don't try to pad the specs with BS parameters (I've seen a LOT of this with the pro equip.).

Well that does it. I'm buying 4!

Though I realize they're getting old. But wow they're cheap. With better numbers than my Marantz 1152DC integrated, and not unattractive, and silver being "in" again. Hmmm.... - I'll take 4 :)!

There is one 5 of 5 review for the Mackie - used as a sub amp - in AR reviews. I also noticed that the Halfer DH-500 (225 wpc into 8 ohms) has a 4.9 of 5 rating with 29 people checking in. It appears that around $300 +frt. will get you one on fleaBay.

So, after your post, you've got a choice of lots instead of two. Round & round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows!

Pete

PS - let us know what you get & how you like it - I'll be picking up an amp for sub use myself this summer!

[jbangelfish]

The manual states that in 4 0hm it has 340wpc but bridged mono, the figure stays at 650w whether 8 ohm or 4 ohm. I don't know why. All I can say is, it's a very strong amp.
I checked a catalog for PA equipment and found the Mackie and Crown amps that you are talking about. I don't pay much attention to PA amps and they probably don't belong in home stereo systems. The reasons that so many used the DC300A for PA and professional use is that it was strong enough to do it and they have been available fairly cheap used for many years. The amp also uses 1/4 inch connections which lends itself to PA and you need adapting patch cords from normal RCA to 1/4 inch which were supplied with them when new. These new amps are designed for PA use, they will have much higher distortion than the old DC300A. Honestly, I would not buy any of them for home stereo. The old amps on ebay are still going for $250 or less and in spite of their age, are a good buy. I wouldn't be surprised if these are still going strong when the new ones have crapped out.
Bill

[grampi]

650W would be plenty as a sub amp, and you're right, none of these newer amps have nearly as good of specs as the DC300 has. I guess I'll just keep an eye out for them on ebay and bid accordingly. I think the only problem I may have with the DC300 is it has a fairly large faceplate and it may present quite a problem trying to find a place to put it. It certainly won't fit in with all my other equipment.

[poneal]

Could you keep us posted on which amp you choose and how it all works out please.

[jbangelfish]

They do take up some space and they are fairly heavy but don't let that bother you. A lot of good amps are big and heavy. This would be a great amp for a sub. There are a couple of series II DC300A's coming up on ebay and are just later models. Should have the same build quality but are dark grey or black and have a switch for bridging mono. They usually run a little higher in price than the silver or older models but I would not be afraid of any of them. By all means, let us know what you get and how you like it.
Bill

[grampi]

I'll keep you posted. Thanks.

[grampi]

How do you connect the line level outputs from your receiver to the inputs on the DC300? It doesn't accept RCA connectors?

[jbangelfish]

It uses 1/4 inch jacks like PA equipment. They come from the factory with IC's that are made this way with normal RCA's on one end and the 1/4 inch on the other. I would think someone has them but you could make your own.
Bill

[thepogue]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3072590616&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39783&item=3072853264

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073188846&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3072980846&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073198370&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073157871&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073155584&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073093360&category=39783

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3072941503&category=39783

there are tons out there....just hunt'em down...and remember to look @ the spec's for a bridged application and BTW Carver made some Great amps and some junk in the mid 80's to eairly 90's.

[grampi]

That's a pretty impressive list of amps there. Does anyone know if the Phase Linear 400 is bridgeable into 4 ohms, and if so, what is its power rating is in this configuration? Thanks.

[grampi]

The Adcom GFA 555 looks like a decent sub amp as well. Anybody know what its 4 ohm bridged mono power rating is?

[piece-it pete]

Nice!

Although it's shy on dampening:

http://www.adcom.com/pdfs/gfa555_545_535manual.pdf

Pete

[grampi]

That's a powerful amp! Between these and the DC300A's, I should be able to get something tha'll work.

[grampi]

I've been watching the DC300's and Adcom 555's on ebay and people are driving the prices of these through the roof! The DC300's have selling for more than $200, and the Adcom's for over $300. It doen't look like I'll be getting one anytime soon, at least not until the demand for these amps goes down. I wonder why the demand is so high?

[grampi]

Is an Adcom GFA-1 any good? There's one on ebay with a current high bid of just $49.

[grampi]

Where's eveybody been lately?

[thepogue]

I think Adcoms "triple nickle" amps are a good value....I run two of them and look at them as one would a 1979 Impala w/305. A piece of history, a great value and workhorse....but not a classic by any means....I'm sure someday I'll look elsewere for amps but until then the ole 555's will do. Also to be honest, the market price on the Adcoms is pretty steady....always dipping in the Sept/Oct/Nov time frame and durning economic down times. The GFA-1 would be a steal @ $100-$150 if the unit worked well. It was Adcoms first bid in the middle to late '70's I believe.

[thepogue]

Nice!

Although it's shy on dampening:

http://www.adcom.com/pdfs/gfa555_545_535manual.pdf

Pete
Petie....I've head it 1000 times...what does it mean? Thanks Brudda! Pogue

[jbangelfish]

I've been watching the DC300's and Adcom 555's on ebay and people are driving the prices of these through the roof! The DC300's have selling for more than $200, and the Adcom's for over $300. It doen't look like I'll be getting one anytime soon, at least not until the demand for these amps goes down. I wonder why the demand is so high?
Maybe people are listening to us and buying them. Great old amps and at less than $300 are still cheap. Look what new equal amps cost, 2k or more and even the Adcoms and Crowns were not cheap when new. To get this kind of power (that's good, clean power) for $300 or less is truly a bargain. My DC300A was around $1200 in 1975. What would that be in today's market?
Bill

[jbangelfish]

Petie....I've head it 1000 times...what does it mean? Thanks Brudda! Pogue
I believe that the best way to describe it would be speed in relation to bass. A high damping factor maybe 600 or higher will make for tighter bass. Many amps and receivers will have a damping factor of 100 or less. I remember an amp by TNT (I think) which had a damping factor of 1200 and in it's review, the reviewer stated that they were able to discern tighter bass than what they normally were used to. 1,000 or higher is not so uncommon anymore, my Parasound amps have 1,000 DF. It has to do with the ability of an amp's power to push the speaker quickly and also to stop it quickly, making for the tight bass response. Skeptic or others could probably give you the real particulars on this but I hope I gave the basics of it.
Bill

[grampi]

I don't think Piece-it-pete meant the 555 has a low DF rating, just that this number isn't listed for the amp in the specs.

[piece-it pete]

http://www.nathanspage.com/wftd/

The Adcom manual says 130, which according to the referenced def. is good.

BTW, I had a chance to play with a Hafler DH-110 preamp this weekend. Of course it's not an amp but the quality was very good indeed - crisp & clear - and if this is typical Hafler build/sound then I'd at least put their amps on your possibles.

I've also got the rack space problem - where is all this stuff going?? I'm considering building my own tv stand with 3 open shelves wide enough for two components side-by-side, and putting the DVD on top of the TV. More things to resonate, less breathing room for speakers. Arrrgh!

If I used two amps for the subs I suppose I could wall mount them near the subs. But then - I'll need two amps. I need two jobs!!!

Pete

[jbangelfish]

http://www.nathanspage.com/wftd/

The Adcom manual says 130, which according to the referenced def. is good.

BTW, I had a chance to play with a Hafler DH-110 preamp this weekend. Of course it's not an amp but the quality was very good indeed - crisp & clear - and if this is typical Hafler build/sound then I'd at least put their amps on your possibles.

I've also got the rack space problem - where is all this stuff going?? I'm considering building my own tv stand with 3 open shelves wide enough for two components side-by-side, and putting the DVD on top of the TV. More things to resonate, less breathing room for speakers. Arrrgh!

If I used two amps for the subs I suppose I could wall mount them near the subs. But then - I'll need two amps. I need two jobs!!!

Pete
In the Crown DC300A manual, it states that the DF is greater than 200 from 0 hz to 1khz. Not all that high and this old amp has very good, even excellent bass. The Parasounds DF is rated at 1000 at 20hz. This makes these specs hard to compare. To try to put this in perspective, there is no way that you could say that the 1,000 DF sounds 5 times tighter than the Crown. The difference is actually quite subtle, but yes, it seems alittle tighter.
Hafler did make some very fine equipment but I don't see alot of it around anymore. It's hard to say if people just never parted with it or if it had reliability issues. Many Hafler amps were sold as kits and you'd want to be sure if it was built by the owner that they did it well. I nearly bought one of the kits myself but chickened out, thinking that I may never actually get it built. I believe Hafler was an engineer for Carver or Phase Linear and broke away and I believe Carver also came from PL.
Bill

[grampi]

There's something else you need to consider when looking at DF specs. At what load is it rated at. An amp rated at a DF of 200 at 8 ohms is only going to be good for 100 at 4 ohms. Every time you cut the load in half, you also cut the DF in half. BTW, I think I'm done looking for amps on ebay. The price of every decent amp on there gets driven through the roof. I'm convinced the days of getting good buys on ebay are long gone!

[piece-it pete]

Interesting note about dampening.

Poking about the web a bit, I found:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstran&1079326583

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstran&1078539067

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstran&1079984040 (this looks interesting!)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23787&item=3700650254

I've been told by my musician friend to check out local pro shops, that they often have used equipment, and sometimes a bargain or two.

Sticking [pro amplifier used sale] in Google gave 50 gazzillion leads.

Good luck, Grampi - you'll need it :)!!

Pete

[grampi]

I checked out your links. One of the 555's was sold, the other one the guy wanted over $300 for, the Hafler probably wasn't powerful for my needs, and I guarantee the price of the JBL will be jacked up way over $200, maybe even $300 by the time it reaches the end of the bidding time because it's on pricegougebay. I'll check the other stuff you mentioned, but I think you're right, I'm going to need a lot of luck!

[poneal]

Hi Grampi. I can understand you frustration with ebay. Every once in awhile you can get a good deal but they are few and far between. I happened across a single channel amp from outlaw audio called the M200 that puts out 200watts@8ohms and 300watts@4ohms. The reviews here and on other boards are all positive. The good news is that it only cost $299. I'm thinking of purchasing one to drive my passive sub that I built. Like you said you could pay over a $100 dollars for a 10 year old amp on ebay or just add a few hundred more and get a new one. If I purchase one, I will let you know how it performs. Here is a link for the amp:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/200.html#

Remember to let us know what you end up getting and how it works out.

[piece-it pete]

The Hafler ad appears to be for TWO bridged DH-200s'. No "official" bridged specs found but the seller mentions 345 watts each @ 8 ohms, and I found some web refs' saying 350.

That's a lot of watts for $300 ($.44 per 8 ohm watt). Also, if your subs are flat-topped you could set them on top with blutak. Not acceptable audiophile wise but we gotta do what we've gotta do :). And it would probably look very cool - they are IMHO nice looking units.

The seller has a lot of those JBLs' and starts the listing with a buy-it-now price of $200. If you e-mail him he might sell you one for that.

When I'm ready to buy I check for newly listed buy-it-now listings as often as possible (5-10 times a day!). Sometimes people ask too little for whatever reason. I also check Audiogon often, so I get the 1st crack at "good deals". But the frustration!!!

Pete

[grampi]

I need an amp that'll do at least 250W X 2 into 8 ohms in stereo, or at least 500W bridged into 4 ohms. A lot of the older amps you can't bridge into a 4 ohm load.

Here's the way I see it. A lot of these amps on ebay are 20-30 years old, and because of this, to me they aren't worth $200-$300. These amps may have better specs and were probably built better than amps made today, but eventually everything wears out, regardless of how well it's built. I could see paying $100 for a Crown DC300A or an Adcom 555, but $200-$300 is ridiculous! What's to say an amp that old isn't going to crap out the sencond you turn it on? At least If I buyer one of the newer amps I'm more likely to get some type of warranty with it.

[piece-it pete]

I need an amp that'll do at least 250W X 2 into 8 ohms in stereo, or at least 500W bridged into 4 ohms. A lot of the older amps you can't bridge into a 4 ohm load.

Here's the way I see it. A lot of these amps on ebay are 20-30 years old, and because of this, to me they aren't worth $200-$300. These amps may have better specs and were probably built better than amps made today, but eventually everything wears out, regardless of how well it's built. I could see paying $100 for a Crown DC300A or an Adcom 555, but $200-$300 is ridiculous! What's to say an amp that old isn't going to crap out the sencond you turn it on? At least If I buyer one of the newer amps I'm more likely to get some type of warranty with it.

Heck I understand that!

I'd be surprised if, after all your consideration, you ended up with an amp that didn't work for you.

Just let us know - I'll be looking soon!

Pete

[karl k]

I need an amp that'll do at least 250W X 2 into 8 ohms in stereo, or at least 500W bridged into 4 ohms. A lot of the older amps you can't bridge into a 4 ohm load.

Here's the way I see it. A lot of these amps on ebay are 20-30 years old, and because of this, to me they aren't worth $200-$300. These amps may have better specs and were probably built better than amps made today, but eventually everything wears out, regardless of how well it's built. I could see paying $100 for a Crown DC300A or an Adcom 555, but $200-$300 is ridiculous! What's to say an amp that old isn't going to crap out the sencond you turn it on? At least If I buyer one of the newer amps I'm more likely to get some type of warranty with it.I too have been looking for some boost in my system and here's a couple I found for a reasonable cost...

http://www.djbargains.com/cgi-bin/sscat/CatalogMgr.pl?cartID=b-6071&SearchField=partnumber&SearchFor=QSC-RMX850&template=htx/srrstswdt.htx

The QSC 850 look like a nice unit. the $299 price is pretty universal everywhere I've shopped on the net. The numbers all look very respectable and with the exception of the overall looks, I would buy it and expect it to work fine for my needs.

http://www.djbargains.com/cgi-bin/sscat/CatalogMgr.pl?cartID=b-6071&SearchField=partnumber&SearchFor=NMK-DIMENSION-3&hdrFile=&template=htx/srrstswdt.htx

The Numark Dimension 3 doesn't advertise much in the line of numbers but the company in general looks to be at the fore front of tech in the industry from what I've read and while amps are not they're forte, I assume they're reputation for what they do excell in would carry over into the field of amplification. I've e-mailed them yesterday for the DF, warranty, and other info and we'll see what happens. I will probably buy this unit in a week or so. Have seen it advertised at Etronics for $344 and on sale now at 123dj.com for $329 plus shipping.

Brands I've been told to stay away from include Samson, Nady, American Audio/DJ, Pyle, and Pyramid. In every case, the question of durability came up and while my purpose is for home use and not for commercial use, I will take the advice of those who have given it.

For those of you interested in Damping Factor and how it works(both pro and con), here's a couple of links...

http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/lastudyhall/df.html

http://www.bcae1.com/ (right side of page, schroll down to item 99)

http://www.pssaudio.com/english/art010.htm

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_013.htm

http://otlamp.com/articles/tomcik/

I personally don't know if the hype is worth it but if I have a choice between getting an amp in the price range with a high DF vs. low DF, then I say play it safe.

I'll let you all know how the Numark unit turns out.

[grampi]

Are these amps really any better than the Crown XLS series amps, which are even less expensive?

[karl k]

Where are they less expensive than the prices "I" stated(not the ones in the links)?

[grampi]

The "buy now" price for the XLS 602 on ebay is $292, and the 402 is $244.

[karl k]

I was in reference to "new" prices instead and the comments made about "old" equipment. If your alright with ebay, great! If not, I'm mearly introducing alternatives in the best price/quality range. As far as better than Crown, I never stated that any of the products in my list(today or any other time) were superior in performance to the Crowns or the Mackies... just a viable alternative that may be of equal quality for less(new).

Didn't mean to mislead you.

[grampi]

Those XLS amps are also new, according the their discription.

[karl k]

I stand corrected. Meanwhile, back at the farm...

Check the price for the same amps at Audiolines.com(XLS602 - 269.95/ XLS402 - 229.95)

The XLS series does appear to have some good specs although I wonder if the specs are the same between the XLS xxx-A vs. the XLS xxx since the "A" appears to be substantually higher in price. In my search, I can't find a difference in specs... just looks.

:)

[karl k]

I stand corrected. Meanwhile, back at the farm...

Check the price for the same amps at Audiolines.com(XLS602 - 269.95/ XLS402 - 229.95)

The XLS series does appear to have some good specs although I wonder if the specs are the same between the XLS xxx-A vs. the XLS xxx since the "A" appears to be substantually higher in price. In my search, I can't find a difference in specs... just looks.

:)
I went to Crowns site and it is likely the cheaper XLS series is the old 3U space series(pre 11/20/2002) and the more pricey ones are the replacements(2U space)

FWIW

[grampi]

Those are some dam good prices on the XLS series amps. It would be pretty tough to justify paying $200 or more for a 20+ year old amp when you can get these brand new with a 3 year transferable warranty.

[grampi]

Here's another question to throw into the mix. Since I plan to use this amp only to drive a sub, why not use a mono block amp? Do any companies make these for home systems? I know they're made for car audio use. Seems to me if they are available, a person should be able to get a relatively high powered, high quality amp for a a fairly decent price.

[thepogue]

this has been a very interesting post...but i just gotta say "ya get what ya paid for"...in an above post you stated "an Adcom 555 worth $100, but $200-$300 is ridiculous!" I've owned Adcom products for 15 years...and all one needs to do if follow the used market and see that the 555 II's get 400 all day long! and the 555s are closer to 3. To be honest I really dont know what your wanting for 100 dollars...if 200-300 is ridiculous for an amp with the reliablity and performance of the triple nickles (and I dont mean to be a smart arse) maybe you need to say a few more bucks...if you get something for $100...you've stole it, not bought it! If it's just a used issue someone above mentioned Outlaw.....they are a great bargin 200wpc for 299...again in todays market a steal...

[grampi]

I guess I just don't understand what keeps the prices of these amps so high. What is so special about these 15-30 year old amps that people are willing to pay $300-$500 for them? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would be willing to pay that much money for receivers, speakers, EQ's, or any other type of audio equipment that's that old. Why amps? You'd think with the advances made in technology over the last 15-20 years, amps built today would be that much better than those built in years past. This would make a person think the demand for new amps would be much higher, making the demand for older amps much lower. This just isn't the case.

[poneal]

Grampi, I figured this was for a sub so that is why I posted about the outlaw audio M200 amp. Its a mono-block amp (i.e. single channel amp). Thats 200wpc into 8ohms and 300 into 4ohms. I think it would adequately drive your sub. I don't own the amp, but I did read reviews here and on other boards and they were all positive. IMO that $299 seems a mighty good deal to me.

[grampi]

Do you know of any that are roughly double that in power? That's what I'm looking for.

[karl k]

Do you know of any that are roughly double that in power? That's what I'm looking for.
I'd like one too! In all the searching I've done on the net, I can say that aside from the plates, and a few from Audio Source, you'll probably not find anything in the price range for new equipment. For older stuff, there are still some Carver home units out there but as with any Carver piece, you'll pay at least half of new and that's still pricey.

Another thought, have you checked your local musical instrument stores and pawn shops?
Your local nudy bars and clubs? Sometimes you will get lucky and find a used unit in good condition after they have upgraded their system.

Never heard back from Numark... what the hail is up with companies and they're ability to talk to the little man! Not a good way to do business, IMHO!

Good luck on your search, I'll be watching to see how you do. :D

[karl k]

I guess I just don't understand what keeps the prices of these amps so high. What is so special about these 15-30 year old amps that people are willing to pay $300-$500 for them? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would be willing to pay that much money for receivers, speakers, EQ's, or any other type of audio equipment that's that old. Why amps? You'd think with the advances made in technology over the last 15-20 years, amps built today would be that much better than those built in years past. This would make a person think the demand for new amps would be much higher, making the demand for older amps much lower. This just isn't the case.
Why would anyone in his right mind buy a car that is 30yrs old with 75K miles on it for $10K or more when you could have fuel injection, economy, and a better, smoother, more responsive ride?

Why indeed. :confused:

[thepogue]

and some think that vintage equipment is better built than what we see out there today! I'm not really in that camp but I've owned an Sansui 7000 receiver that I picked up in '79 and sold it in 84ish (I think it was 185 wpc and none were as purddy IMO). My friend still runs that for 2 channel and she's still running strong. I really can't speak for all other amps but I do own Adcom and Carvers and I feel they were good used buys...in fact in most audio circles the triple nickles (and most there other efforts) are at the lower end of the hi-fi food chain...wanna-be's so to speak....also for the most part the "hi-fi" world shuns using PA equipment for home use...this just might be the snob factor I'm not sure but I made the foolish mistake of going to AA and asking if I could use an older Peavy amp to power speakers and got ice poured on me head...oh well....

[grampi]

I've seen the PA amp thing brought up before too. What's the difference between PA amps and home audio amps? In fact, a lot of the amps I've been looking at have been classified as PA amps, and I think that's because of the amount of power I'm looking for (500W-800W).

[RGA]

Grampi if you want to save money on buying power amplifiers try buying sensitive speakers. Contrary to popular belief there is ZERO advantage in buying speakers that are sensitive and thus 20 watts is more than you'll ever need. And if a sub is a must buy a powered one.

You say a few posts up that you NEED a 400 watt amp? Why? That is exactly double the perceived volume level over a 40 Watt amp. If my speakers are rated 10db more sensitive than yours I will get the same loudness level with 40 watts that you will achieve with 400Watts.

Then you can buy yourself a $20.00 integrated amp that is 20 years old.

More watts doesn't mean better sound...generally the higher the watt number the worse the amp actually sounds in my experience. Bryston and Krell are exceptions along with many others but none would be my first hoice because to get them to sound that good well costsl like a Bryston and a Krell. The same can be had for 1/5 to 1/10 their price if you choose speakers wisely.

A good old Khorn needs all of 3 watts to play very loud with loads of dynamic headroom and will better practically ALL speeakers rated at 85 db and a 500 watt amp. The K horn with 3 watts will probably still hit a 112db. The 85db speaker to get the same would need 512 watts.

Sensitivity and efficiency.

[poneal]

Beware, PA amps normally only go down to 50Hz, which is the lowest the voice can go. Since your driving a subwoofer, you want to be able to amplify sound down to at least 20Hz. I'm not saying all PA amps only go to 50Hz, but make sure you check the specs to see if they can go down to 20Hz.

[FLZapped]

Beware, PA amps normally only go down to 50Hz, which is the lowest the voice can go. Since your driving a subwoofer, you want to be able to amplify sound down to at least 20Hz. I'm not saying all PA amps only go to 50Hz, but make sure you check the specs to see if they can go down to 20Hz.


Huh? Maybe a 60's vintage Bogen. -Bruce

[grampi]

Grampi if you want to save money on buying power amplifiers try buying sensitive speakers. Contrary to popular belief there is ZERO advantage in buying speakers that are sensitive and thus 20 watts is more than you'll ever need. And if a sub is a must buy a powered one.

You say a few posts up that you NEED a 400 watt amp? Why? That is exactly double the perceived volume level over a 40 Watt amp. If my speakers are rated 10db more sensitive than yours I will get the same loudness level with 40 watts that you will achieve with 400Watts.

Then you can buy yourself a $20.00 integrated amp that is 20 years old.

More watts doesn't mean better sound...generally the higher the watt number the worse the amp actually sounds in my experience. Bryston and Krell are exceptions along with many others but none would be my first hoice because to get them to sound that good well costsl like a Bryston and a Krell. The same can be had for 1/5 to 1/10 their price if you choose speakers wisely.

A good old Khorn needs all of 3 watts to play very loud with loads of dynamic headroom and will better practically ALL speeakers rated at 85 db and a 500 watt amp. The K horn with 3 watts will probably still hit a 112db. The 85db speaker to get the same would need 512 watts.

Sensitivity and efficiency.

I certainly understand what you're saying about efficiency, but I doubt I'm going to be able to run the Tempest sub in my DIY HT enclosure with a 20 watt amp. I'm running it now with 250 watts and I'm not happy with it's performance. I think the direction I need to go with this driver is to put it in a high "Q" enclosure and run it with a lot of power. The driver is rated for 750 watts, and I want an amp capable of this much power. I like tight, punchy bass and right now I'm not getting it. I believe a high "Q" sealed enclosure with a lot of power will give me what I'm looking for.

[jbangelfish]

And getting enough power to it is also essential. Grampi, buy an old DC300A and if you don't like it, I'll buy it as long as it's under $300. How's that? Buy one that is guaranteed that if it does not work, you can get your money back. This should not be a problem as most of them are still working. I will buy it if you don't like it.
Bill

[poneal]

So Grampi, what the status on your amp decison? Haven't heard anything for awhile now. Curious minds wanna know.

[pelly3s]

Beware, PA amps normally only go down to 50Hz, which is the lowest the voice can go. Since your driving a subwoofer, you want to be able to amplify sound down to at least 20Hz. I'm not saying all PA amps only go to 50Hz, but make sure you check the specs to see if they can go down to 20Hz.

I haven't seen an amp that doesn't produce below 50Hz in a long long time. I work with Pro Audio amps all day long it's my job and they normally have an amazing low frequency response. Thats why I can pump 18Hz into the Community Quad 15" VBS's all day :) Thats a fun thing to do.

Grampi, If you want the gas pedal and you are looking to spend the money the Crown K1 or K2 will be a great choice even though they are a little more than what you are looking for in power. If you dont mind buying used look at HTICS's website and see what they have. Another suggestion yet a little expensive is a Lab Gruppen

[poneal]

The PA I referenced means Public Announcing (PA). I think you thought I meant Professional Audio. I may have misinterpreted the question thinking Grampi meant Public Announcing Systems when actually he meant professional audio. Sorry for the confusion. In the case of professional audio amps, I think this is what you need to get in order to drive the subwoofer at the power he needs. Sorry for any miscommunication there. Cheers. Paul.

[grampi]

My status is basically nothing right now. I in the middle of a full time class and haven't had any time to do anything. When I do, I'll post a message.

[poneal]

Lotsa wasted time on this thread....

[RGA]

Basiclaly if you want a brute of an amp with bullitproof reliability and bags of power then go Bryston or don't bother. Lots of people think Crown is garbage and the recent McIntosh thread seems to me they don't stand by their stuff. UHF magazine thinks they're mid-fi with poor solid state design. Tubes are another matter.

"CROWN
3. re THD
> > > I have not yet, in over 30 years in this hobby, found any real correlation between measured harmonic distortion, odd or even, and how close a device brings me to the live performance. Sometimes you will find a correlation, and sometimes the lack of same is boggling. My favorite example was the Sony TA-3200F amp, with THD measured, if I recall correctly, 0.0035%. It also sounded dreadful on anything other than Advents, KLHs, and ARs, i.e. speakers requiring high damping for the woofers *and* having no top end to speak of. The Crown amps are another great example: measured great, sounded terrible. On everything. On the tube side, it goes both ways: there are valve amps that measure badly (especially single-ended triodes) but sound good, and others that measure badly and sound lousy. Then there are units like the Dyna Stereo 70 that measure very mediocre and can astonish. Neither tubes nor transistors own this territory; harmonic distortion, and IM distortion, **as we measure it**, is not, by itself, an indicator of musical truth. They are useful as **relative** indicators to the engineer developing a design, and that's about it.” Bill Way AudioAsylum Feb 21 2004.

McIntosh http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/314470.html

[kingdaddykeith]

I've got a Mackie 1400i, driving 2 Maelstrom Sonosubs at 2 Ohms per channel (VC's Paralleled) and this thing absolutely rocks, very solid bottom end and very quite noise floor. Also great features and adjustments, and very respectable THD specs as far as Pro Amps go, better than Crown or QSC.

[CARLOS]

Theres a lot of good advice going on through this thread but I have to put a plug in for the idea of checking out the Crown products. Crown is not for everybody but it sounds like grampi is looking for some tight results from his sub system and the right Crown ( you have to check the specs ) should do it. K1's and K2's have a damping factor of >3000 from 10 to 400. I use a Macro Tech 2400 on my subs ( damping factor of >1000 ) in the work studio and a Micro Tech 1200 on the high packs. This is a mistake it seems as I don't get much work done when this system is turned on. It turns into a personal concert with sonic clarity and presence that surpasses all equipment I have owned in the past...and thats going back some 35 years. I say don't limit yourself to 300 bucks for a workhorse when you can buy a bullet proof truck for a few hundred more that will grab you by the ears and keep your attention.
Just my 2 cents
Carlos

[amcfreek]

i lugged a bunch of crown amps with a band that owned a music store , the only thing he would run ten years ago was a crown macrotech line 1200 watts .. i did buy a crown dc300 early version without overload protection with wood cabinette for 15 bucks .. no you cant its all mine ...
the power base series is ok when they work but they are too hard to fixx and thats froma repair center not just second hand info they were the low end of the pro series , you want the rack mount anamals . like anny reputable music store has used crown or mackie amps , crown are the easiest i mean from a pro tech , freinds roadied professionally .. i got good info first hand on what a stack of 1200's can do with eaw cabs and loaded jbls {horns} 3 ppl to lift em 5 ply plywood dunno how think think kisses shoes are thinner ..
but musicians freind has a few crown amps .. i personally would rather have a fan cooled piece , eaven though you may add a fan at a later date .. but my intentions of running a crown amp for my subs in the future are pretty good , after i fix one .. or my denon .. or my carver amps ...mount them in the celler on the justs and duct work em up...
but living in a half a double with a kid that likes his rap music loud and abnoxiouse .. i tried to respec t for a few years as i have , a bunch of jbl 15's laying around pm 1500 i think .. as wella s a few fosgate car subbs ..enough to hurt these ppl bigtime
anny way right now i slapped a fisher amp {150 watt bloated} to a single 12 and the kids and his old man are calming down a bit a lil thump and they chicken out .. btw they know what i have here ive let loose on ocasion weasel across the yard has calmed down as these two joined forces ,, pick on the tortured genous
let me remind you this is my house {half a double} i try and show some respect . i dont screw with ppl to make me look big with lil man syndrome {im 6-0 } bothe idiots are short
i dont mount my speakers to the partitioning walll .. {cant say the same for some one else}
then again he found out the hard way when he moved in with his 280 wpc , with sansui speakers what a peeded off cber/ham nut can do with some old tubes ..
um and i quote"thier was a squeel , then you blew all my tweeters and mids"
umm personal problem shoulda bught fuses .. sucks when that happens ..
2am piece and quiet .. happens frequently around here after the tubes get warmed up enough to transmit ....sianara scumbag :-)
i have had his kid begg .. these are not nice ppl . take with a grain of salt if you want to know we would be off topic and almost need a new thread called neighbors....
but back on topic i would buy the biggest baddest crown amp i could afford ... then say hi to my police dept for shure .... but i would suggest one with my tech experiance .. techincal support from crown is great ive had problems and emailed them witha house part number , they emailed the generic equivelent not only one number but nte. industry standards they too the time to cross reference the numbers im impressed
sony would have had a good laugh with thier morning cofee ...and tugh luck buy this 9 dollar part 75 bucks its a sony {jack asses}

thanx you cant go wrong on anny of the crown stuff most durable cost effeciant amp on the market thats in the words of who owns a music store like 300 bucks buys a lot used ...
thanxz laterz

[kiwijunglist]

Hi

Apparently you can disconnect the fans in the Crown XLS amps. They don't get hot unless you push them like crazy. Most audiophile amps don't even have fans (although they do however have larger heatsinks)

The other option is to put a 100 ohm resister (atleast 4Watt strength) on the little 12/24V cable that powers the fan, that should cut the speed in half.

i just spent 4 hrs reading the crown discussion on www.avsforum.com

I was thinking of getting some kind of m-audio card that has a preamp box outside the computer, then i will swap my NAD C352 for Crown or similar poweramp.

-Mike

Current System
Foobar2000 mp3 software
VIA AC97 Onboard sound chip
NAD C352 Integrated Amp
Mission M34 Floor standers
Monster cables

[hifidan]

If you want a power amp without a fan, you might want to look at a used DC300, or look at the Crown K series(K1), these not only have no fans, but are the most efficient amps in Crown's line-up because of their power supply techology. Of course, you'll pay twice as much, but it depends on what you think is worthwhile.

-Bruce[/QUOTE]
Hi, I'm presently using a Crown K-1 driving a pair of DIY Isobarik 10 inch peerless CC Line subs. The bass is tight as it will ever be I think. It is musical. It is replacing an Parasound HCA 1500A (205wpc/8 ohms). There is no comaparaison whatsoever. The crown amp is just cruising along.
A class A dor subs at least if not for driving mains.
Cheers
Hifidan

[accastil]

i would avoid behringer by any means... and you don't need a fan i wouldn't want one in a home enviroment anyways. i own the smaller version of the JBL Urie. I have the 6230 they are better sounding than most hifi amps you would spend over a 1000 for. The 6260 is a great amp, one of the best of all time but it always will be second to the crown d-150
why so? why do you sound so sour on behringers?

[pelly3s]

behringer uses cheap parts and the equipment is cheaply made. their europower amps or whatever they are called are a total rip off of the QSC RMX line. They have a history of poorly reproducing top end gear and calling it their own. Plus there is only two service centers in the country and if something breaks you cant get parts or a schematic to fix it yourself