Marantz vs. Denon vs. ?

[nightflier]

I noticed that GG is going out of business and selling everything off at 20-40% off msrp. Our local store has several nice Denon 3910 universal players still in stock. It's selling for $1199 with full manufacturer warantee. I like the fact that it has HDMI, DVI, and Firewire connections so it won't be obsolete right away. But this is a steep price, especially considering that HD-DVD or BlueRay is right around the corner.

I intend to use it 70% for movies and 30% for SACD (don't have any DVD-As).

How does it compare to the Marantz DV6500 which is half the price, particularly with reference to the chipsets and sound reproduction? Or is it even in the same league?

I know Marantz has a comparable DV9500 for $1300, but I'm not really ready to pay more than the Denon and at this price I want to buy from an authorized reseller.

Any other players that compare in the $600-1000 price range?

[ToddL]

Have you seen the DVD2910 by Denon? It runs a lot less and will still have the full SACD, I am not sure if it has the D-link though.

[csukasem]

Hi,

I am movie biased (80%). When I bought my Denon 5900, I checked and found out that with comparable model, Denon had better picture whereas Marantz had better sound. Not sure if this still holds true.

Sukasem

[edtyct]

How ya doin' nightflier,

I don't know the Marantz model, though I've heard good things about it (hardly a surprise), but I can tell you that the 3910 is a nice piece of work. The 2910, which is less than half the price, however, is certainly not less than half as good. In fact, the 2910 may be Denon's biggest price-point mistake; it's hard to beat in any respect (it has a little macroblocking with certain displays, but far less than the 1910). Does GG have any of them left at a good price? You've got to spend a hell of a lot more than the 3910 costs to get even a slight improvement in video, and you can spend considerably less to get about the same quality. It simply doesn't pay these days to get an exorbitantly expensive DVD player for video unless the rest of the system can support its weight in gold (and resolution). With a digital connection to a DLP, LCD, LCoS, or DiLA, you can fool your pocketbook like never before. The Bravo D1 player's pioneering DVI output proved as much a year or so ago. But if you want your DVD player to do music with equal ability, you generally have to spend a little more, though a few surprises dot the marketplace. And none of the little guys with the razor- sharp video will hold down the table when the next hurricane comes like the 3910 will.

By the way, I forgot to add that the Marantz's lack of a digital video output is as big an absence as you want to make it. The component feed will look good, but the lack of an option that Denon provides counts for something.
Ed

[nightflier]

So at $1199, the Denon 3910 is a decent price? There are quite a few of them on Audiogon and they go for about $800-1000 used, but I don't want to risk it. Any reason so many people are selling theirs?

Also, although my TV is HDTV ready and capable of 720p and 1080i, only has Component Video inputs, so I'm sort of tied there. What's the best picture resolution I can expect if I don't use DVI or HDMI?

P.S. I was looking to buy the 2910 initially, but the 3910 has audio improvements that I really want to check out.

[edtyct]

It's a decent price, for a brick-and-mortar store, but it doesn't win the prize. Just browsing around on the web, I've seen it for just under $1000. Resolution per se will not improve with a digital output, but sharpness can, primarily with non-CRT-based sets. Anyone with a component-only TV, who expects to stay that way for a while, has no need of a digital output on a standard DVD player (the lack of a digital input on the TV might be far more significant). In that regard, the 3910 is overkill, since much of its video appeal is based on its three glamor outputs--HDMI, DVI, and firewire, which do have practical significance with microdisplays. Use of HDMI rather than DVI can avoid problems with certain displays, and sometimes vice versa.

I think that the reason why people may be unloading 3910s at this point is that they are an expensive albatross to be carrying when $1000 HD players are just around the corner. I doubt that macroblocking has anything to do with it, since the 3910 has less of it than the less expensive Denons, and it doesn't happen with all displays. Audiogon is just the type of site to harbor early adopters of hi res DVD, or enthusiasts who are always looking to move.

The 2910's audio is pretty damn good, but the 3910 is capable of a wider and deeper soundstage. If that means enough to you, then it may be the one to get. But not every system is going to get this benefit. Comparing the two players at home before buying is the best way to go. Frankly, under most conditions, I'd be happy with either of them. What would stop me from spending $1000 on a standard DVD player at this point is the law of steep diminishing returns above half that price (and sometimes lower), and the imminent appearance of hi-res DVD at around $1000, with three new hi res audio formats to be included. Not even the prospect of a format war can obscure the looming price point for an improved DVD technology, even if you have no plans to buy into it.

Ed

[nightflier]

It's a decent price, for a brick-and-mortar store, but it doesn't win the prize. Just browsing around on the web, I've seen it for just under $1000.

But I doubt they are authorized resellers. I've heard mixed reports about Denon customer service, so I want to have a player that I can have serviced easily.


Resolution per se will not improve with a digital output, but sharpness can, primarily with non-CRT-based sets. Anyone with a component-only TV, who expects to stay that way for a while, has no need of a digital output on a standard DVD player (the lack of a digital input on the TV might be far more significant). In that regard, the 3910 is overkill, since much of its video appeal is based on its three glamor outputs--HDMI, DVI, and firewire, which do have practical significance with microdisplays. Use of HDMI rather than DVI can avoid problems with certain displays, and sometimes vice versa.

I intend to use the component outputs until I can buy a new Plasma display. I will make sure the latter has 1080p capability. I am also investigating a new receiver, probably the Outlaw Model 990 (or maybe the 1070). Both of these have DVI output. Speaking of which, Outlaw says that HDMI has a lot of compatibility issues, hence the DVI outputs only on their receivers/processors. And I understand that HDMI cables are much more fragile, too. The comparable Marantz DVD player has HDMI, and not DVI, whcih gives me some pause... But in the mean-time, what is the max spec for Component Video 720p, 1080i, or 1080p?


I think that the reason why people may be unloading 3910s at this point is that they are an expensive albatross to be carrying when $1000 HD players are just around the corner.

Hey let's leave the albatrosses out of this, they're still recovering from the "Finding Nemo" PR fiasco... Seriously, though, I can't imagine that a good player that someone paid $1500 for new, is going to be dumped like that. I'm wondering if there may be something else people don't like about the player.


The 2910's audio is pretty damn good, but the 3910 is capable of a wider and deeper soundstage. If that means enough to you, then it may be the one to get. But not every system is going to get this benefit.

This is really what I'm getting at. I presume that a $1000 DVD player will have very good video to begin with. My dilemna is that I also want to get good SACD sound out of it, something that is not always a priority and not often well reviewed, either. Right now, I've got it narrowed down to these three players:

- Onkyo DV-SP1000 (HDMI only and rather expensive)
- Marantz DV-7600 (HDMI only)
- Denon 3910 (both DVI & HDMI)
- Any others?

I'm looking for an open soundstage, like you'd find on a typical higher end CD player.

[edtyct]

Couldn't tell you about the authorized vs. unauthorized. It might be worth checking. HDMI does have some compatibility issues. The audio glitches are well documented, the video ones less so. The HDMI handshake has been known to fail in rare cases; it needs some work. DVI has had problems but mostly in relation to sinks, not sources. But I haven't seen too many good companies elect to avoid HDMI because of serious risks. An improved HDMI standard is on the verge of release to deal with the issues, anyway. Your call. DVI ain't too shabby. Component can handle anything thrown at, save HDCP copy protection--which, roughly translated, means, "don't expect to get 1080p over it." I hope that I'm wrong, and I'm dead-set against the trend. But power dictates.

No disrespect intended to albatrosses, the ancient mariner, or nemo. Personally, I can't think of anything seriously amiss with the 3910, except for its price. Whenever a new technology knocks on the door, people try to get something back on the expensive "outdated" components that they bought.

The DVD players with big SACD soundstages that come to mind are the 2910 and 3910, unless you go to the stratosphere. I've always thought that the Sony DVP-NS975V at $300, which has a wide if not particularly deep soundstage, marked the beginning of high-quality SACD in Sony's line, but I recall that the mere mention of Sony can raise hackles here. As you imply, the expensive dedicated, as opposed to universal, player, usually stands apart in this respect. I haven't heard one of those for quite some time. If I think of anything, I'll post.

Ed

[nightflier]

An improved HDMI standard is on the verge of release to deal with the issues, anyway. Your call. DVI ain't too shabby. Component can handle anything thrown at, save HDCP copy protection--which, roughly translated, means, "don't expect to get 1080p over it." I hope that I'm wrong, and I'm dead-set against the trend. But power dictates.

Ed,

Thanks for all the info. With $1200 on the line (which for me is a big expense for a DVD player), you can understand that I'm a little nervous. I read on another post that Marantz is actually owned by Denon, so that really does not leave many choices. I've always liked the Marantz build-quality, so let's hope that Denon is as good. I wonder which brand the company considers their higher end...

So if I understand correctly, the only thing I'm giving up by using component is copy protection? Or is there an actual, noticeable difference in picture quality between 1080i & p (the same difference as between 480i & p)?

If anyone is reading this thread, any other ~$1000 DVD players that come well recommended?

[edtyct]

Denon and Marantz are owned by an umbrella company called D&M, which also owns McIntosh. These three subsidiaries are hardly made in each other's image, or as a planned hierarchy of quality; they go their own way. If you want to play the high end game, McIntosh wins that one, hands down. But Marantz got back to making solid equipment after Philips bought them in the last decade.

The difference between 1080i and p is less noticeable than that between 480i and p simply because of the more lines of resolution involved (or the number of pixels, which we cannot resolve on panels too small to display them at a comfortable distance). I made a long post about 1080p a couple of days ago, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice it to say that the first 1080p TVs cannot receive 1080p material, only scale other formats to 1080p, which is a mixed blessing. When source content actually arrives in 1080p, it will certainly make a splash, but not with the same impact for everybody. But if the bad guys have their way, copy protection will apply to 1080i as well. The two competing hi res DVD formats, which will launch as 1080i, threaten to be exclusively digital for reasons of copy protection; as planned, they will not send hi def signals to component inputs.

The main difference between component and digital connections concerns copy protection, but a digital connection to a non-CRT set also has the advantage of avoiding D/A conversion, which can affect picture quality. To most people, this drawback is visually minor at best, but it becomes more conspicuous with larger displays (as do format advances), and it is evident on test screens. You can certainly live for the time being with 1080i--maybe forever, depending on your physical environment and temperament--but if you want to watch hi def at all, let alone at its very best, you may not be able to avoid digital input. As I said before, there is a serious movement afoot to challenge the content provider's copy protection scheme, but I wouldn't bet against the studios at this point. I hope that I'm wrong.

Ed

[nightflier]

Well GG has dropped the price on the 3910 a bit. If I can get it for under $1000 then I'm going to get it. I have little faith in any HD/BlueRay solutions and even when it is over, the disks and player will be hugely overpriced. Ironically GG also has a 5910 for about $2500, but if I had that much cash, I'd buy a plasma display first.

Just to shoot this out there one more time, my choices in the $1K range are (in order of preference):

- Denon 3910
- Marantz DV-7600
- Onkyo DV-SP1000 (if I can find a good price)
- Yamaha DVD-S2500
- Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi

So my final question before spending this much on a player is: Do any of these other players outperform the 3910?