Pioneer 1015tx vs. Yamaha RXv 757

[ryk]

How does the Pioneer 1015tx measure up against the YAMAHA RX V757???

I had to return the Pioneer 1015. I have Paradigm 9se and they are 4 ohm speakers. Since the Pioneer only works with 6 ohm and above speakers, I returned it for the Yamaha. Is there any major difference between the YAMAHA 757 and Pioneer 1015tx other than the 20 watt difference and the THX?????

The Pioneer sure sounded sweet...even though I only had it hook up for a couple of hours..It ran pretty hot due to the impedence. I did not want to loose another Receiver, and I sure as he** did not want to give up my Paradigm 9se's.

I have not hook up the Yamaha yet. But from other's comments, I hear this is an excellent reciever.
Was the Yamaha 757 a good trade off for the Pioneer 1015tx?

Does the Yamaha play dvd-audio and SCAD????

Should I have kept the 1015 and upgraded my Paradigms 9Se ???

[kexodusc]

Uhh, tough call. They Pioneer has more power, but whether or not you'd take advantage of that extra power depends on your speakers, and how loud you play.
I'm guessing the 757 has enough for you.

I probably would have given the Pioneer a bit more time. Those Yamaha's aren't really made for 4 ohm loads either, and I doubt it'd be any better than the Pioneer in that regard.

Yamaha is known for making durable receivers though, coming from H/K and Denon, my last 2 Yamaha's run surprisingly cool. No fans either. This shouldn't be overlooked, though most receivers today can take a lot of heat before running into trouble.

The 757 offers a few different things, has plenty of power itself, and is a great sounding receiver for the money though. Either way you win.

[ryk]

The Yamaha has a feature on it to lets you choose between 4 ohm and 8 ohm. The pioneer only works with speakers 6 ohms and above. :>)

I called the Pioneer Tech Line (very helpful people by the way) and they told me NOT to use the receiver with 4 ohm speakers. That info plus the receiver running hot was my queue to retuen it.

Kexodusc,Thank you for your knowlegeable insight.. it has been most helpful.

[GMichael]

The yamaha does 4 ohm? Are you sure?
It does have pre-pros though.

[ryk]

ABSOLUTELY!!! YAMAHA does give you a choice between 4 and 8 ohm settings. It's a 2 button function on the Receiver itself...not through the remote. It looked pretty simple. I'm setting it up tonight.

The guy at the Hi Fi Sales demoed it to me. They had one on display. He also told me that the Pioneer Elites let you choose between 4 and 8 ohms as well. Altough they did not show me how they worked...my budget doesn't run that high so getting a demo of the Elites would be moot.

[kexodusc]

Okay, the Yammies can handle 4 ohms but only the front main speakers. I'm sure the Pioneer could handle some if you were cautious, but when a company holds the line like that, it tells me they don't have faith in the product outside it's published specs. Too bad about that, goes to show more power isn't everything. I'd have to see the amp schematics to know for sure why the Pioneer couldn't hack it, might just be heat dissipation. Oh well.

I still think it's a great alternative for the majority of folk who have 8 ohm speakers.

[Geoffcin]

The Yamaha has a feature on it to lets you choose between 4 ohm and 8 ohm. The pioneer only works with speakers 6 ohms and above. :>)

I called the Pioneer Tech Line (very helpful people by the way) and they told me NOT to use the receiver with 4 ohm speakers. That info plus the receiver running hot was my queue to retuen it.


Although it WILL drive a 4 ohm speaker, do not expect it to produce anywhere near as much power as it would driving an 8 ohm load. Depending on how you listen you may drive the receiver into protection mode.

Most speaker are rated for AVERAGE impedance. The Axiom M80ti's that I have now are easily driven by my receiver even though they are rated at 4 ohm. Still, I much PREFER to drive my speakers with seperate power amp.

[GMichael]

Wow, check out page 102 of the 757's manual. These specs imply that it's 2 ohm stable.

[kexodusc]

Although it WILL drive a 4 ohm speaker, do not expect it to produce anywhere near as much power as it would driving an 8 ohm load. Depending on how you listen you may drive the receiver into protection mode.

Most speaker are rated for AVERAGE impedance. The Axiom M80ti's that I have now are easily driven by my receiver even though they are rated at 4 ohm. Still, I much PREFER to drive my speakers with seperate power amp.

I think most sub $1000 A/V Receivers use current limiting, don't they? I'm wondering if as a cost containment measure, such limiting circuitry was just omitted from the Pioneer, it's an internal switch of some sort on those isn't it?

Chances are for most people with 4 ohm speakers, a relatively large receiver should be able to handle at least a pair of 4 ohm speakers.

Back in college, I can remember driving the bejeesus out of some old Cerwin Vega's with Sony and Technics receivers. You could fry eggs on them, but they worked.

[kexodusc]

Wow, check out page 102 of the 757's manual. These specs imply that it's 2 ohm stable.
Uh...no...not stable, just capable of delivering that power to 2 ohm loads. A 4 ohm speaker might have a the odd 2 ohm dip...for short periods of time, it should be able to handle 2 ohms though.

I know a lot of good quality power amps that would have a hard time driving 2 ohms stable.

[GMichael]

Uh...no...not stable, just capable of delivering that power to 2 ohm loads. A 4 ohm speaker might have a the odd 2 ohm dip...for short periods of time, it should be able to handle 2 ohms though.

I know a lot of good quality power amps that would have a hard time driving 2 ohms stable.

Yeah, I see that my manual says the same thing. How dare they get my hopes up like that.

[kexodusc]

You remember that episode of The Simpsons where Homer induces a meltdown in the Mini-Van Nuclear Core simulator? Pretty sure these Yammies would experience something similar if you were to connect some 2 ohm speakers to them.

Try connecting 2 pairs of 4 ohm speakers in parallel if you really want to know. At low volumes, it probably won't care much. Until it starts looking for all that juice and goes into shut-down mode (if you're lucky).

[Geoffcin]

I think most sub $1000 A/V Receivers use current limiting, don't they? I'm wondering if as a cost containment measure, such limiting circuitry was just omitted from the Pioneer, it's an internal switch of some sort on those isn't it?

Chances are for most people with 4 ohm speakers, a relatively large receiver should be able to handle at least a pair of 4 ohm speakers.

Back in college, I can remember driving the bejeesus out of some old Cerwin Vega's with Sony and Technics receivers. You could fry eggs on them, but they worked.

Pioneer uses overload protection and will give you all the power it's got before overload. With a low resistance speaker that can happen pretty quicky. Yamaha went a different route and uses current limiting. This can have the effect of limiting quite severly the rated output, depeding on the load. I remember seeing a few specs where the much more capable Yamaha 2500 was only putting out 35-40wpc into all channels driven. Even so, it never overloaded. With current limiting you can get an amp that will be stable into unity, of course at unity it's producing NO current though! ;)

[GMichael]

You remember that episode of The Simpsons where Homer induces a meltdown in the Mini-Van Nuclear Core simulator? Pretty sure these Yammies would experience something similar if you were to connect some 2 ohm speakers to them.




Will I need donuts to pull this off?

[kexodusc]

Pioneer uses overload protection and will give you all the power it's got before overload. With a low resistance speaker that can happen pretty quicky. Yamaha went a different route and uses current limiting. This can have the effect of limiting quite severly the rated output, depeding on the load. I remember seeing a few specs where the much more capable Yamaha 2500 was only putting out 35-40wpc into all channels driven. Even so, it never overloaded. With current limiting you can get an amp that will be stable into unity, of course at unity it's producing NO current though! ;)

That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.

[GMichael]

That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.

Good to hear. Mine should be around the same then?

[Geoffcin]

That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.

Say one that dips to 3 ohms or so, like many "good" speakers. Then the limiting could get onerious, and you would get serious signal compression. The fact of the matter is that NO quality amps use current limiting, it's only used on receivers.

[kexodusc]

Say one that dips to 3 ohms or so, like many "good" speakers. Then the limiting could get onerious, and you would get serious signal compression. The fact of the matter is that NO quality amps use current limiting, it's only used on receivers.
3 ohms? Yikes, there's no reason for that these days, a lot of good 4 ohm speakers don't show the large dips anymore I don't think the low impedance is the only thing to worry about either, the rate of change of the swings is just as hard on an an amplifier.


I think the key here is still to buy the right size amp for your application. I'd never buy an amp knowing I'd place a burden on it consistently of more than 25% of it's max rated power. Doesn't leave enough headroom, IMO. Especially with receivers. Amps are a bit different, most seem to underrate these days.

I wuldn't feel to confident running 5 or 7 speakers rated at 4 ohms with most sub $1000 A/V receivers.

Current limiting is kind of like those fuel governors cars use. Kind of annoying, but if you never push the receiver near it's danger limits, you shouldn't even know it's there. The last extra 1 dB or 2 dB really suck a lot of current. I think it's a decent approach. Full power available to any 2 channels simultaneously, and an aweful lot available to 3 or 4 at once...should be enough for most people. I suspect in all but the rarest case this is sufficient. If it's not, I don't draw much distinction between 62 and 71 watts.

Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?

[ryk]

Alrighty then!!!

Does this mean I made the right choice returning the Pioneer.

I really need to know if I made the right move here! If it is a matter of symentics, Then I'll go back and get the Pioneer. If your saying it's a wash, I'll stick with the Yamaha.

This topic has generated a LOT of techo information for me and hopefully others, some of it is over my head, being a newbie to all this.
I just need to know if I made the right choice.

[GMichael]

Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?

Don't quote me, but I think Denon does also.

[3db]

That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.

Would love to join a club like that and attempt to drive amps into submission *chuckles* Would love to see how a NAD would handle it

[kexodusc]

Oh the load was variable...but I don't think it would have dipped below 5 ohms or above 12 ohms, frequencies 100 to 10,000 Hz.

[Geoffcin]

Oh the load was variable...but I don't think it would have dipped below 5 ohms or above 12 ohms, frequencies 100 to 10,000 Hz.

About 90%+ of the speakers out there.

[Woochifer]

That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

Great info!


Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?

I think UL now requires an impedance switch for their certification listings (no idea if it's required for outboard amplifiers). Also, more and more receiver manufacturers are putting the impedance selector into the setup menu rather than on the back of the unit. So, just because you look at a demo receiver and don't see the switch does not mean that it's not there.

[Woochifer]

How does the Pioneer 1015tx measure up against the YAMAHA RX V757???

I had to return the Pioneer 1015. I have Paradigm 9se and they are 4 ohm speakers. Since the Pioneer only works with 6 ohm and above speakers, I returned it for the Yamaha. Is there any major difference between the YAMAHA 757 and Pioneer 1015tx other than the 20 watt difference and the THX?????

The Pioneer sure sounded sweet...even though I only had it hook up for a couple of hours..It ran pretty hot due to the impedence. I did not want to loose another Receiver, and I sure as he** did not want to give up my Paradigm 9se's.

I have not hook up the Yamaha yet. But from other's comments, I hear this is an excellent reciever.
Was the Yamaha 757 a good trade off for the Pioneer 1015tx?

Does the Yamaha play dvd-audio and SCAD????

Should I have kept the 1015 and upgraded my Paradigms 9Se ???

The Pioneer should work with 4 ohm speakers, even if the specs don't indicate as such. The only question is how hard you can push them before the receiver goes into protection mode. The only difference between the two is that the Yamaha has been rated and tested for 4 ohm speakers. Even so, Yamaha does not recommend that you use more than one pair of 4 ohm speakers at a time. So, if you're looking to do a multichannel setup matched to those speakers (and the center and surround speakers are also 4 ohms), then you'll need to get an outboard amplifier with either receiver.

Both receivers (and actually any receiver with a six-channel analog input) will play DVD-Audio and SACD. You just need a player capable of playing those discs, and three pairs of interconnects.

The RX-V757 is a very well regarded receiver that has just about everything you'll need to manage your home theater setup for at least the next few years. Same thing could be said for the Pioneer.

[kexodusc]

Would love to join a club like that and attempt to drive amps into submission *chuckles* Would love to see how a NAD would handle it

Yeah, the "club" is great...Millions of bucks in high-tech equipment (some of it straight out of the original star trek series) that I would never ever be able to buy. (unfortunately I'm not allowed to use any of it myself, I have to watch others). FYI, I have a 23 year old NAD 3140 I will bring in next time. We are going to try to kill it. I bought this about 2 years ago for spare parts for another 3140 I have. It's got problems in the pre-amp stage somewhere, but works fine through the Phono input.

We didn't beat the crap out of the amps. Those guys kew what they were doing, and of course I watched them do it with their own, more expensive gear before letting them do it to mine next time.

I'll bet a lot of cheap receivers would perform a lot better than magazines and audio websites give them credit for in most "real-world" applications. The problems start when you buy a small, 65 watt X 5 Yamaha receiver to power a pair of 4 ohm speakers, and 3 surround speakers with dips below 5 ohms in lower mids, and then turn it up very loud. Especially if the speakers' sensitivities is only like 85 dB or something.

I built my parents a small, HTIB type system with 5 satellites. Just 1 driver and a small network for impedance compensation and a notch filter. The drivers are 8 ohm, but they are only 81 dB efficient with 1 watt. Yup, 81 dB. In their mid size room, with the old 80 watt X 5 Sony receiver they use (their 2nd system, I wouldn't do that to my mom and dad in their primary system) they have no problems driving the average volume above 80 dB with peaks over 90 dB. This pretty loud, louder than a lot of theaters I've been to. Not THX levels, I don't think, but enough to drown out the outside world for sure. The Sony "only" puts out 30 something watts with all channels driven.

1 speaker, 81 db, 8 ft distance. 1 watt = about 73 dB (assumes NO reinforcement from walls) At 10 watts per chanel the volume climbs to 83 dB in room. with 2 speakers that goes up to 85. Add in walls and you're over 87 watts easily, with 9-12 dB of headroom. At 30 watts X 5, you're still getting handy to 100 dB's. What those "all channels driven" specs don't tell you is that the instantaneous power (ie: real music power) that's available is higher than that.

The sound quality is very mediocre though, I don't like Sony receivers that much. My old RX-V795a makes those things sing. I don't subsribe to the idea that all HT receivers sound the same. These 2 do not.

I'll say one thing though, that sony has taken a lot of punishment over the years. Sony can build'em tough when they want to.

[kexodusc]

About 90%+ of the speakers out there.
Yeah, I guess it does...I've seen many go higher than 12 ohms, but that's not as hard on an amp I don't think.

This would kind of validate Pioneer's choice to not worry so much about 4 ohm speakers then. If 90% of the market doesn't care, why not make more powerful receivers for the 90% of the market that does....

Anyone know how these new digital receivers like the Panasonics make out with 4 ohm speakers?

[Geoffcin]

Yeah, I guess it does...I've seen many go higher than 12 ohms, but that's not as hard on an amp I don't think.

This would kind of validate Pioneer's choice to not worry so much about 4 ohm speakers then. If 90% of the market doesn't care, why not make more powerful receivers for the 90% of the market that does....

Anyone know how these new digital receivers like the Panasonics make out with 4 ohm speakers?


The 1015, while a great receiver, is one of Pioneer's "consumer grade" line. I'm sure it would drive his 4 ohm speakers, but most people with hard to drive speakers are already using a seperate power amp....I know that's a few of us!

[Geoffcin]

I built my parents a small, HTIB type system with 5 satellites. Just 1 driver and a small network for impedance compensation and a notch filter. The drivers are 8 ohm, but they are only 81 dB efficient with 1 watt. Yup, 81 dB. In their mid size room, with the old 80 watt X 5 Sony receiver they use (their 2nd system, I wouldn't do that to my mom and dad in their primary system) they have no problems driving the average volume above 80 dB with peaks over 90 dB. This pretty loud, louder than a lot of theaters I've been to. Not THX levels, I don't think, but enough to drown out the outside world for sure. The Sony "only" puts out 30 something watts with all channels driven.

The sound quality is very mediocre though, I don't like Sony receivers that much. My old RX-V795a makes those things sing. I don't subsribe to the idea that all HT receivers sound the same. These 2 do not.


The reson being that I've found that the lack of time/phase distortion that a single speaker has can sound pretty terrific, even though you give up full frequency ability. If you are hearing the difference in receivers then that tells me the speakers have some good resolution.

[kexodusc]

The reson being that I've found that the lack of time/phase distortion that a single speaker has can sound pretty terrific, even though you give up full frequency ability. If you are hearing the difference in receivers then that tells me the speakers have some good resolution.

Full-range drivers are tricky to use alone. I think Fostex is known for doing a ton of work in that area.

I was pretty amazed with John Krutke's execution of a single-driver speaker using the Hi-Vi Research aluminum midrange driver. His design was certainly an inspiration for mine. I had to use a different cabinet size, and went with a different driver, so baffle step compensation compensation, and my notch filter were completely different, but there's no question I borrowed alot from him.

I used a Hi-Vi B3N. It's an excellent $10 driver. You'll find it in a few of Swans 3-way designs, but I've seen it more in odd-ball 3rd party commercial designs. 3" drivers are the perfect size for single driver systems. Small enough for decent high end and midrange response, and still a bit of bass left. Mine run out of bass around 90 Hz or so very fast, but integrate with a sub quite easily.

I'm most impressed by the imaging and soundstaging abilities. They outperform my Axiom M3Ti's easily in that area, wider, deeper, cleaner separation of instruments. I think that's just physics of a 5.5 inch wide baffle. If there's one thing I've observed, smaller, narrower speakers image better, all things equal I think. .

The downside of most full-range drivers is the top end. Some have serious break up issues above 5000 Hz. The highs are a bit dull at times, I'm use to the Scan-speak tweeter tweeter in my towers ($90), or even the Peerless driver in Ed Frias' Ar.com design. ($25). Those are definitely brighter, with more air and detail, so it's hard to step back.. I really only notice it on cymbal heavy music, just seems the decay isn't as crisp as it should be. A $4 neo tweeter would do wonders for the design I think.

Good distortion plots in the Hi-Vi driver. Aluminum is good for low distortion. The midrange is very good. I'd say they have about as much resolution as my Axiom M3Ti's, which also use aluminum mids.

As a stand alone music speaker they aren't that great. A sub is needed, or a larger ported cabinet at the very least. With a sub I'm confident they'll outperform most small cube HTIB type speakers. I stop by the Athena Micra 6 display whenever I'm at a Best Buy/Future Shop. I think that's a fair comparison, though the Hi-VI isn't as bright sounding and is better for vocals. Some might prefer the recessed highs, I like my speakers bright. These remind me a lot of the older Energy Take 5 systems, but a bit smoother.

For $100 and a weekend of fun though, it was a fun project. Some people I know have used them in sealed boxes with no notch filter or baffle step compensation with decent results. I sold my parents Paradigm Cinema series HTIB system and replaced them with these, they're a bit better than the Paradigms. Thinking of building the v.2 with a cheap tweeter for the 10 kHz - 20 kHz range soon for my bedroom system.

The $100 DIY 8" Dayton subwoofer rounded off the system and was the real gem though. Their PDR-8 didn't even come close. DIY subs are probably the best value and the easiest to do.