Sound and Vision Home Theater Tune-Up

[Stereomaniac]

Does anyone have any experience with the Sound and Vision Home Theater set up DVD?
I know most people go with the AVIA or Digital Essentials but this disk has a subset of the AVIA video tests from Ovation.

I was doing the video tests on my small screen (Panasonic Tau CT-24SL14) and got very poor results. Either I did it wrong (I watched the whole disk and followed the directions), my TV is bad, or my eyes are shot.

On the picture/contrast test I could never get the top two white/gray bars to blend together even with the picture control at max. On the brightness/pluge test I could not even see the two "dancing" vertical lines without turning black level on (and that overly brightened the whole picture). The sharpness test did not seem to change much at all and I turned the sharpness all the way up and down on the TV. On the color/saturation test I could not get the flashing squares to disappear completely, but at the setting that made them very faint the color/saturation was way too hot. The tint/hue test is the only test that seemed to work, but it has it set way too far into the red. All the people looked red faced.

Is this a problem with the Panasonic Tau's? I assume the Avia DVD would give the same results? Would the Digital Essentials do any better? Help!

[kexodusc]

Yeah, it's not the disc's fault at all. It's not even the Tau's fault, really.

Problem is, the tolerance for deviation from "factory specifications" are relatively large on TV's. They have to be, because calibrating each of these things manually at the factory would drive the price up a ton!!! So would developing an automated way of doing it.

You can bet your grayscale is off and that the greens are pushed a bit too much. TV's do this these days. Red's get pushed a lot too.

On my Toshiba, I can get the red and blue squares to be very close to disappearing, but the green is way off...it's not even close. Funny thing is, it's only noticeable during the DVE tests. I mean, everything looks about the right color. So it's easy to live with. My Dad's Hitachi, and Uncle's Samsung all behave the same way. My old JVC isn't flawless either...doesn't get along with reds very well.

Sharpness is a funny thing. On my set, there isn't much of difference until you are in the top or bottom 20% of adjustable levels. On some sets I've played with, the sharpness will start making a noticeable difference immediately.

You'll never get it perfect unless your an ISF technician or want to shell out $300 for one to visit you. You could explore the service menu options. I fixed quite a few little annoyances on mine, but be warned: it's scary business. One mistake can bugger up your set.

Take satisfaction in knowing your TV is setup closer to optimal than it was. Hey, tons of people leave their sets on in "torch mode" for years, and die very happy. Don't beat yourself up.

[Stereomaniac]

Yeah, it's not the disc's fault at all. It's not even the Tau's fault, really.

Problem is, the tolerance for deviation from "factory specifications" are relatively large on TV's. They have to be, because calibrating each of these things manually at the factory would drive the price up a ton!!! So would developing an automated way of doing it.

You can bet your grayscale is off and that the greens are pushed a bit too much. TV's do this these days. Red's get pushed a lot too.

On my Toshiba, I can get the red and blue squares to be very close to disappearing, but the green is way off...it's not even close. Funny thing is, it's only noticeable during the DVE tests. I mean, everything looks about the right color. So it's easy to live with. My Dad's Hitachi, and Uncle's Samsung all behave the same way. My old JVC isn't flawless either...doesn't get along with reds very well.

Sharpness is a funny thing. On my set, there isn't much of difference until you are in the top or bottom 20% of adjustable levels. On some sets I've played with, the sharpness will start making a noticeable difference immediately.

You'll never get it perfect unless your an ISF technician or want to shell out $300 for one to visit you. You could explore the service menu options. I fixed quite a few little annoyances on mine, but be warned: it's scary business. One mistake can bugger up your set.

Take satisfaction in knowing your TV is setup closer to optimal than it was. Hey, tons of people leave their sets on in "torch mode" for years, and die very happy. Don't beat
yourself up.

The only thing is... I don't really feel I did any thing. For the most part I set the brightness and picture back to were they were since I was unable to even get those adjustments to work. I also turned the color back down and put the tint more towards the center. I still have my original problem of losing detail in dark areas without black level set to on which adds a faint brightness haze to the whole picture.

The set is still under parts and labor warranty. Do you think it would be worth while to take it in and have a tech tweak it or do I have the real risk of screwing it up even more?

[kexodusc]

If a Tech would tweak it, that'd be great. Unfortunately, I don't think the warranties cover those things.

Might be worthwhile to try renting DVE or Avia to see if you get any different results. I'm guessing you won't. Sometimes your room environment (lighting, presence of windows, brightness and color of walls, etc) all contribute to that too. Make sure you do the adjustments in the most typical environment conditions.

Turn off all the VSM, DSS and other features these TV's all come with these days. If it's a feature designed to improve the picture, chances are it doesn't.

Most people scale back the brightness, and the black level, turn down the colour, adjust the tint, and scale back the sharpness. You basically get a dull, dark picture at first. Except it's not really dull or dark, it's accurate, and your'e just use to the factory "torch modes".

Oh, make sure any "black level" settings and picture enhancement features your DVD player might have aren't activated as well.

[edtyct]

You don't really need a second opinion, but I was in the neighborhood, so I thought I'd drop by. As Kexo says, TVs stray notoriously from optimal settings, and some even refuse to be calibrated correctly. Does the Sound & Vision disk use blacker than black to set brightness? That's the most accurate way to get it right, but some DVD players don't pass blacker than black. If you're having trouble getting the test screens from S & V to tell you anything, DVE might be good to consult, since it provides a few more options and better documentation. But again, as Kexo says, your TV still might not cooperate.

Brightness and contrast interact severely. Setting one can throw the other for a loop; you frequently have to go back and forth to compromise and balance. If the colorimetry is wrong, you might have to concentrate on flesh tones and let the chips fall where they may. I've rarely experienced a CRT that is invulnerable to the sharpness control. You can usually see exactly where lines start to bend or bulge and adjust accordingly. If you can't tell on the S & S screen, see if you can find a test screen with fine straight lines. Then play with the sharpness control until the distinctions between those lines start to fade. That's the point at which to scale back.

Some specialty stores, like Tweeter, offer a scheduled visit for one of their technicians to make any necessary tweaks to the set. Even though there's a thriving community of DIY'ers on the web, I'd refrain from tinkering with color and/or greyscale in the service menu unless you know the exact parameter that needs to be changed for a specific reason. One false move among all of those codes can make everything go haywire. Most technicians refer to manufacturers' papers for default values or for fixes under particular circumstances. I wouldn't let anyone run wild in my service menu without a real good blueprint and the right equipment. It's surprising what "technicians" don't know. Most are honest about it, even if they tend to couch their ignorance in lines like "I can't find anything wrong with this set." The ISF didn't spring up for nothing.

See what happens if you work on flesh tones, finding another way to assess sharpness, and investigating the blacker than black capability of S & V and your DVD player. Also, use the color temperature closest to the industry standard D65 (6500k)--usually warm or neutral, often the lowest setting, though some sets are more accurate at their medium setting. If you can't tell from the nomenclature, a temperature setting that looks too blue is usually way too hot (ironic as that may seem). Sometimes you can tell by looking at something white (mfgs often enhance white with blue because it looks brighter that way). One more time, as Kexo says, shut down every optional picture-enhancement feature, including global settings like "vivid." "Pro" or "standard" are usually the safest bets. They may allow more accurate settings.

Ed

[Stereomaniac]

Does the Sound & Vision disk use blacker than black to set brightness? That's the most accurate way to get it right, but some DVD players don't pass blacker than black.

The S & V DVD just calls this a pluge[sic?] test. You get a half black, half white screen. In the black half there are two constantly moving vertical lines. The directions tell you to turn up the brightness until you see both lines and then turn it down until the left line disappears and the right one is barely visable. I can turn the brightness all the way up and still can't see either line unless I turn the "black level" to on on my Denon 910 and black level introduces more problems than it solves; as you say leave it off. The main point to getting this DVD was to adjust the picture to bring out detail in the dark scenes, but both the white and black level tests on this disc were a bust. I am not sure DVE will help much as Kexo said. I have a feeling there is just not enough room for adjustment on the TV and/or there is some signal processing going on in either the DVD or the TV or both and I am not touching the service menus for the reasons you stated.


Brightness and contrast interact severely. Setting one can throw the other for a loop; you frequently have to go back and forth to compromise and balance. If the colorimetry is wrong, you might have to concentrate on flesh tones and let the chips fall where they may.

I think this is exactly what I will have to do. As I said the color was too hot and bluming at the levels the S&V disk test indicated was correct w/ the blue filter. The flesh tones were terrible with the hue deep to the red side in the hue test again w/ the blue filter.


I've rarely experienced a CRT that is invulnerable to the sharpness control. You can usually see exactly where lines start to bend or bulge and adjust accordingly. If you can't tell on the S & S screen, see if you can find a test screen with fine straight lines. Then play with the sharpness control until the distinctions between those lines start to fade. That's the point at which to scale back.

There is some change to the picture with the sharpness test but not much.


See what happens if you work on flesh tones, finding another way to assess sharpness, and investigating the blacker than black capability of S & V and your DVD player. Also, use the color temperature closest to the industry standard D65 (6500k)--usually warm or neutral, often the lowest setting, though some sets are more accurate at their medium setting. If you can't tell from the nomenclature, a temperature setting that looks too blue is usually way too hot (ironic as that may seem). Sometimes you can tell by looking at something white (mfgs often enhance white with blue because it looks brighter that way). One more time, as Kexo says, shut down every optional picture-enhancement feature, including global settings like "vivid." "Pro" or "standard" are usually the safest bets. They may allow more accurate settings. Ed

I have turned off the black level on the DVD and Velocity Modulation on the TV. I set the color temp to Neutral. Warm is a little to red for me. Like you, I find "enhancement features" on audio and video equipment to be neither. Just bells and whistles to attract the masses. People are a lot like largemouth bass in this respect. Ha!

[edtyct]

The Denon 910 can pass information below black, but Secrets reported that it may not be able to hold it when something bright is on the same screen. Be that as it may, in the S & V pluge test, the black background represents information below black, and the vertical line that is supposed to blend with it is closer to standard video black, leaving a little headroom so that dark signals don't get clipped. The second vertical line represents probably 2% above black, which is why it should stay visible when the other one's gone.

Blacks are getting crushed for some reason, and the TV seems to be the reason. The two pluge bars become visible when you activate the Denon's black-level control because it elevates the TV's darkness floor. If the culprit were the DVD player's inability to show black below 7.5 IRE, the vertical bar on the right would still probably show up, permitting you to lower the set's black level until that bar were just barely visible--the minimal condition for setting black, assuming that line to be 2% above base black. If the white-screen half were forcing the Denon to drive up the black background on the other half, the two bars would probably be visible at a lower point on the brightness scale. CRTs by nature come out of black more slowly than microdisplays do, sometimes making the 2% line hard to distinguish at the point where the other one fades to black, but your set retains darkness much too long. My guess is that the factory greyscale is off the charts; it would probably special equipment and know-how to rectify. Under these conditions, like you, I'd settle for a little black crush rather than hoist up the brightness and contrast to eye-popping levels. Is this the kind of problem that CRTs will be facing in their dotage?

Ed

[Woochifer]

The limitation (or benefit depending on your perspective) with the S&V disc is that it only uses a single blue filter in its video tests. For my analog TV, the S&V disc is all I need. I highly recommend the S&V disc for beginners because it's so simple to use and improves a home theater system in so many ways.

But, if you have a wider range of adjustments available or need more options for the color balancing, you should go with either DVE or Avia because those discs use three color filters for their video tests.

In my case, the S&V disc made a huge improvement in the picture by dialing down the sharpness and brightness, increasing the color level, and adjusting the hue. Amazing how much better my current settings look than the factory defaults.

I also got a copy of DVE, and it changed the settings slightly, but the adjustments on my set did not allow me to optimize the settings with all three color filters.

[Stereomaniac]

My Tau is an analog set hooked up to the 910 through component video cables. I think it is the TV. From above I just couldn't get the white and black level adjustments to do much of anything on the S&V disc. It maybe the gray scale is messed up and I am guessing that it the grayscale is off it is just about impossible to get the color right. I was always taught to get the white and black levels correct before adjusting the color.

Maybe that is why the color and hue settings dictated from my S&V adjustments were so bad. On a 0 to 63 scale the color was around 55 and the hue was around 18 (to the red side). These looked awful (saturation and reds way to high) especially on the red shirt/yellow tie test that followed on the S&V disc.

Given that it is a small, analog set do you think the DVE disc would be worth the money? Do you think it would be worth it to have a tech a the store tweak it and get the gray scale correct at least(if they are willing under warranty) or could the tech make it worse?

[edtyct]

I take it that this is a new set, or else you wouldn't mention warranty. The cost of DVE is at an all time low, about $12. It's a good investment that will serve you well when you do get a digital set. For that money, and those prospects alone, I'd pick it up. If you want to spend even less, you might try to find a copy of plain old Video Essentials, the precursor to DVE, made expressly for TVs before the digital revolution.

From what you've described, I don't think that you have much to lose in asking a tech to examine your set--assuming a free visit (on Panasonic's bill). If the set varies from Panasonic's specs in a way that a technician can easily fix in the service menu, or if some electronic part has failed, you'd at least stand a chance of getting back into the ballpark. But if the gray scale and colorimetry are shot more fundamentally, I wouldn't hold out much hope, even if the store is willing. A change in the red, green, and blue guns probably won't do the trick. To get the color of grey right requires a good color analyzer, skill, and time. Most bread and butter TV repairmen don't have the tools, or the inclination. Maybe the store will let you do an exchange (hopefully, not all Panasonic analog CRTs these days are infected with the same disease). Without seeing the set, I wouldn't know, but you might have to wrangle with someone about what constitutes "broken" or "replaceable." I've seen Panasonic's recent digital direct-view CRTs, and they look good.

Ed