Turntable Pro Vs Audiophile

[BRANDONH]

I am thinking of replacing my Pro-ject 1.2 with a Technics SL-1210MK5 (black).
http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/technics_dj/prod_intro_sl1210m5g.asp
It weighs 26.5 lbs.
What are the advantages and or disadvantages between the S shaped tone arm and a straight tone arm, direct drive vs belt drive?
I realize that I will not need or use some of the DJ features but the Turntable overall looks quality.

[Bernd]

Hi,
Why do you want to get a DJ TT?
If you want to upgrade and sound quality is important to you why not give the Projects higher up a try or the Rega P5 or the Michell Technodeck with Technoarm A.
These three will blow the Technics into the weeds. It really depends what you like.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
Why do you want to get a DJ TT?
If you want to upgrade and sound quality is important to you why not give the Projects higher up a try or the Rega P5 or the Michell Technodeck with Technoarm A.
These three will blow the Technics into the weeds. It really depends what you like.

Enjoy the music

Bernd
Hello Bernd,
I am thinking of getting one because I play the music at a VERY high volume and sometimes get feedback.
My thinking is, since DJ's play in high volume atmospheres with no feed back problems then the Pro TT would be more suitable for high volume play back.
I will keep my Shure V15VxMR cartridge though.

[Bernd]

Hi,
Is your TT in the firing line of your speakers? A DJ TT would also suffer from feedback if in direct line of the speakers.
I also play at high volume and in my opnion it is the support you put the TT on that matters most apart from the position. Also a suspended design that can dump energy efficiently will sail through high volumes.An unsuspended design benefits greatly from a really good plattform. I used to have a Rega P25 and that sat on a Voodoo Plattform (Air suspended).
It's your call, but I would not go down the Pro route if sound quality is paramount.
Good luck and keep us updated on what you decide.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

[emaidel]

I have to agree with Bernd. I see no reason whatsoever to purchase a DJ turntable if it's sound quality you're after. Insofar as straight vs. S-shaped tonearms: straight arms typically are lower mass, and can accommodate high compliance, low-mass cartridges well, and are better suited for playing warped records without the arm flying off the record surface.

As to Direct Drive vs. belt: there are strong opinions on both sides of this issue. Supporters of belt-drive argue that the bass response is better, whereas DD supporters advocate dead-accurate speed and fast start-up times, plus the need to never have to replace a belt. Since Direct Drive was the "darling" of the mass market Japanese manufacturers, I suspect that such a "stain" on a product (to be associated with the unwashed masses) comes into play here too.

Just don't go buy a DJ turntable, however. You'll be wasting your money.

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
Is your TT in the firing line of your speakers? A DJ TT would also suffer from feedback if in direct line of the speakers.
I also play at high volume and in my opnion it is the support you put the TT on that matters most apart from the position. Also a suspended design that can dump energy efficiently will sail through high volumes.An unsuspended design benefits greatly from a really good plattform. I used to have a Rega P25 and that sat on a Voodoo Plattform (Air suspended).
It's your call, but I would not go down the Pro route if sound quality is paramount.
Good luck and keep us updated on what you decide.

Enjoy the music

Bernd
The TT is behind the speakers but when I get close to 2500-3000 watts it begins to feedback or howl especially near the end of the record.

The specs on the Technics look impressive though:
Colors available: Black
Type: Quartz direct-drive (manual turntables)
Drive: Method Direct-Drive
Motor: Brushless DC motor
Turntable Platter: Aluminum diecast, Diameter: 13 5/64" (33.2cm), Mass: 3.74 lbs (1.7 kg)
Turntable Speeds: 33-1/3 rpm, 45 rpm
Variable Range Pitch: ±8%, ±16%
Starting Torque: 1.3 lb-in (1.5 kg-cm)
Build-Up Characteristics: 0.7s from standstill to 33-1/3 rpm
Braking System: Electronic brake
Wow and Flutter: 0.01% WRMS, 0.025% WRMS (JIS C5521), ±0.035% peak (IEC 98A Weighted)
Rumble: -56dB (IEC 98A Unweighted) -78dB (IEC Weighted)
Effective Length: 9-1/16" (230mm)
Arm Height Adjustment Range: 0-6mm
Overhang: 19/32" (15mm)
Effective Mass: 12g (without cartridge)
Offset Angle: 22°
Friction: Less than 7mg (lateral, vertical)
Tracking Error Angle: Within 2° 32' (at the outer groove of 12" record)
Within 0° 32' (at the inner groove of 12" record)
Stylus Pressure Adjustment Range: 0-4g
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range: 3.5g - 13g
11g - 20.5g (including headshell)
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range (with auxiliary weight):
(with auxiliary weight) 9.5g - 13g
17g - 20.5g (including headshell)
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range (with shell weight): 3.5g - 6.5g
11g - 14g (including head shell)
Headshell Weight: 7.5g
Power Supply: AC120V, 60Hz
Power Consumption: 14.5W
Dimensions: 17-27/32" x 6-25/32" x 13-31/32"
Weight: 25.74lb (11.7 kg)

[Florian]

Dont worry, there is absolutly no way that there is ever going to be 3kw on the run. If you feed your speakers "real" 3kw they will meltdown, blow to pieces or whatever. I dont think the feedback your getting is the turntable. Your system simply doesnt have a "pitch black" background. You need equipment with a better noise floor. On my system for instance on the same turntable i can get close to 120db in this room. (105db peak when i listen) and get no audiable feedback. Time to upgrade the preamps, amps etc... :cool:

[slate1]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.

[Bernd]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.
Hi,
That's exacteley what I said. Direct drive TTs ,in that price bracket, should be very stable.But due to the motor being attached it also genrates noise. And the arm is really not very good. If however you want to take your TT with you where ever you go the Technics is the one.
In order to exploit really good sound quality the TT needs to be set up very very well. Every time you move it it changes. And to be honest sound quality is not on most DJs mind.
It all comes down to preference. Build for sound quality or build for robust treatment.I know of a DJ how uses these decks and has modified them to take an Origin Live modified Rega RB 250. That's one step you may consider.My belt drive TTs speed is rock solid and does not drift. It does however needs careful set up.
We are all different and different parameters are important and I am glad to see another view on this matter.I can only give you my point of view and if sound quality is important I would not by a DJ TT.
Have fun.

Bernd

[slate1]

Bernd - we could do this infinitum I'm sure, but I'm going to make these points one more time – and back them up with FACTS..

The SL-1200 series decks and tonearms were NOT designed as DJ decks in the 70's. DJ’s embraced them because they’re built like a freakin’ tank. It’s an audiophile engineered deck that modern day DJ’s have embraced. Period.

It's a mystery to me as to where everyone gets the idea that the tonearm on the Technics deck is crap. It most certainly is not and, IN FACT, is superior on many fronts to the "audiophile" Rega and Pro-Ject arms. We could argue the merits and demerits of S-Arms all day and I’m not going to go down that road – it’s mostly a matter of taste.

First, just to qualify all this - I own a Michell table with a Rega derived arm on it and have owned the $1,100 Michell TecnoArm.

Let's look at the FACTS - not conjecture:

The heart of a turntable and tonearm are their respective bearings. The bearing stiction on the Rega arms (Origin Live, Michell, Moth, etc. included) is around .04 grams. That simply means that if you put .04g or less on the headshell, the bearings will “stick” and not move – stiction is a good indication of bearing quality - the lower the better.

The bearing stiction on the Technics arm? It's .007 grams - that's 1/5th the stiction rating of the Regas! Take the belt off a Rega P3 and give the platter a spin and then do the same thing with the SL-1200 and tell me which one spins longer... I already know as I've done it - the Technics platter bearing will well outrun the Rega and not by a small margin either. To be fair - the Michell will outrun them both! As it should at $1,700.

Noise - ProJect tables in this price range have a rumble rating of around -70db, Rega doesn't publish noise ratings for their tables... interesting that isn't it? Rumnble is an indication of how much motor noise is making it to the platter and up the tonearm - the lower the better. The Technics? -79db plus it's infinitely better isolated than either the Rega or the Pro-Ject.

Again – I don’t see how anyone can argue this point given the FACTS. The Technics is a superior designed table UNMATCHED in its price category. Now, having said all that. It can be outdone by some belt-drives; BUT at nowhere near it’s price point. It will handily trounce anything from the Rega P2 – P5 line and the sub $1k ProJects / MMF-s. Put some of the KAB tweaks on and it’ll give the higher ups a run for the money.

The biggest problem with the Technics is you’ll have to admit that you own one… so, to me, the real question is not do you want to trade durability for sound; but, do you want to keep your pass to the audiophile playground or raise your middle finger in salute to the elitist snobs for the best sounding and performing deck ever made in the sub-$1k category.

[Bernd]

Bernd - we could do this infinitum I'm sure, but I'm going to make these points one more time – and back them up with FACTS..

The SL-1200 series decks and tonearms were NOT designed as DJ decks in the 70's. DJ’s embraced them because they’re built like a freakin’ tank. It’s an audiophile engineered deck that modern day DJ’s have embraced. Period.

It's a mystery to me as to where everyone gets the idea that the tonearm on the Technics deck is crap. It most certainly is not and, IN FACT, is superior on many fronts to the "audiophile" Rega and Pro-Ject arms. We could argue the merits and demerits of S-Arms all day and I’m not going to go down that road – it’s mostly a matter of taste.

First, just to qualify all this - I own a Michell table with a Rega derived arm on it and have owned the $1,100 Michell TecnoArm.

Let's look at the FACTS - not conjecture:

The heart of a turntable and tonearm are their respective bearings. The bearing stiction on the Rega arms (Origin Live, Michell, Moth, etc. included) is around .04 grams. That simply means that if you put .04g or less on the headshell, the bearings will “stick” and not move – stiction is a good indication of bearing quality - the lower the better.

The bearing stiction on the Technics arm? It's .007 grams - that's 1/5th the stiction rating of the Regas! Take the belt off a Rega P3 and give the platter a spin and then do the same thing with the SL-1200 and tell me which one spins longer... I already know as I've done it - the Technics platter bearing will well outrun the Rega and not by a small margin either. To be fair - the Michell will outrun them both! As it should at $1,700.

Noise - ProJect tables in this price range have a rumble rating of around -70db, Rega doesn't publish noise ratings for their tables... interesting that isn't it? Rumnble is an indication of how much motor noise is making it to the platter and up the tonearm - the lower the better. The Technics? -79db plus it's infinitely better isolated than either the Rega or the Pro-Ject.

Again – I don’t see how anyone can argue this point given the FACTS. The Technics is a superior designed table UNMATCHED in its price category. Now, having said all that. It can be outdone by some belt-drives; BUT at nowhere near it’s price point. It will handily trounce anything from the Rega P2 – P5 line and the sub $1k ProJects / MMF-s. Put some of the KAB tweaks on and it’ll give the higher ups a run for the money.

The biggest problem with the Technics is you’ll have to admit that you own one… so, to me, the real question is not do you want to trade durability for sound; but, do you want to keep your pass to the audiophile playground or raise your middle finger in salute to the elitist snobs for the best sounding and performing deck ever made in the sub-$1k category.

Hi,

I don't think I am an elitist snob. I started with a Dual-Technics-Project-Rega-Michell Orbe/Technarm A , Clearaudio Ambient and now an SME20/2A Series V. As you see I went through the ranks over the years. And the Technics I owned 20 odd years ago sounded good then but would not be a match for what I have now. You could be right that at it's price point the Technics will be a contender,but I would love to do a shootout.
All I am advocating is, if you choose a new TT, try and choose one on hearing them and not from a spec sheet or a photo and be sure what you want from the design..
Technics was only ever mid-fi and never did show any aspirations to go up the ladder and that is fine if that is what you are after.
Let me know if you buy one and how you get on I always like to hear other peoples experiences.

Peace

Bernd

[slate1]

Sorry Bernd - didn't mean that you were an elitist snob and sorry to have implied such.

No - I agree that the Technics does not compete with an Orbe/TecnoArm combo - nor should it! We're talking a $3k+ rig compared to a $500 one. Yet, that level of deck is exactly what an increasing number of "audiophiles" want to use as a basis upon which to dismiss the SL1200 and simply imply that it's a DJ tool and nothing else.

All I'm saying is that apples to apples - SL-1200 -vs- any of the sub-$1k decks from Rega, Pro-Ject, Music Hall, etc. - there's no comparison in build quality AND performance.

Sorry again if I offended you - it was not my intent!

[Florian]

Don't worry Slate1 everyone who owns above average equipment is a snob! ;)

[Bernd]

Sorry Bernd - didn't mean that you were an elitist snob and sorry to have implied such.

No - I agree that the Technics does not compete with an Orbe/TecnoArm combo - nor should it! We're talking a $3k+ rig compared to a $500 one. Yet, that level of deck is exactly what an increasing number of "audiophiles" want to use as a basis upon which to dismiss the SL1200 and simply imply that it's a DJ tool and nothing else.

All I'm saying is that apples to apples - SL-1200 -vs- any of the sub-$1k decks from Rega, Pro-Ject, Music Hall, etc. - there's no comparison in build quality AND performance.

Sorry again if I offended you - it was not my intent!

Hi,
No need to apologise, but full marks for doing so. You didn't offend me. I know what and who I am and am completeley at ease with that. You are right that build quality is pretty good on the Technics and I dare say it needs to be as it will be carted around by most owners i.e. DJs.
In the up to $1k bracket the Technics will probably have to be considered.
I certainley will not dismiss anything that somebody else likes.
Enjoy the music

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Dont worry, there is absolutly no way that there is ever going to be 3kw on the run. If you feed your speakers "real" 3kw they will meltdown, blow to pieces or whatever. I dont think the feedback your getting is the turntable. Your system simply doesnt have a "pitch black" background. You need equipment with a better noise floor. On my system for instance on the same turntable i can get close to 120db in this room. (105db peak when i listen) and get no audiable feedback. Time to upgrade the preamps, amps etc... :cool:
Thanks for your input.
But I can push 3000 watts. My speakers are built for 2000 watts each.
Systems total power is 4800 watts but 3000 is all I can stand and say in the house.
When partying I usually keep in the 1500 to 2000 watt range but after a few more beers well.. it may get pushed up to 3000 with no melt down or blown speakers.

[BRANDONH]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.
I havent spoke with Keven Yet but here is what he says on his site:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm

Spec's can tell an awful lot. It's a shame so many Hi End companies have chosen to withhold this vital performance info. The Hi End magazines too should be ashamed for not testing the turntables they "review".

The Frequency Generator Servo Control on the '1200 produces the most consistent rotational accuracy of any known drive system. Unlike most belt drive systems, it is completely immune to both static and dynamic stylus drag.

The Tonearm bearings, polished to a finish of ± 0.5 microns, feature very low friction of 0.007 grams and the turntable body is a 3 section constrained layer non resonant affair. The Cast 5 Lb Platter system is damped both underneath and by the 1 Lb top mat.

For the tweakers, the Technics interconnect cable contributes 90 pF and the wire in the turntable and tonearm wand contribute 10 pF for 100pF total capacitance. So the interconnect rating is 2pF per inch or 24pF per foot. The cable on the M5G and GLD is abit thicker and claimed to be OFC fine strand copper. They also have gold plated connectors.

All Models employ the same build materials, platter and tonearm. The M5G and GLD have a dual range pitch control that is separately crystal controlled for unsurpassed accuracy and drift free performance. Also the M5G and GLD feature a static lateral tonearm damping system. This is for dj use and perhaps archival 78 RPM shallow grooves. It has no use in hi fi applications.

P.S. The tonearm does look to be made very well.

[pelly3s]

The 1200 is a workhorse and a great sounding table. Any studio that have tables will most likely have a 1200 and I have said it all over this site if its good enough to use in a studio its good enough for home use. There are a lot of mods you can do to 1200's to make them sonically better. And in the price range you definately cant go wrong with it.

[royphil345]

Another vote for the Technics. Especially since you use a Shure cart. It does have better isolation and speed accuracy than any "audiophile" table in the same price-range. Also runs quiet. The Shure V15 and M97xE are high-compliance, but work especially well with higher-mass tonearms.

[BRANDONH]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
After careful consideration I have decided to get the SL-1210M5G.
I have found it for 488.88 thats a little more than I paid for the Pro-ject 1.2 a couple of years back.
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_LEFT.jpg
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_CENTER.jpg
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_RIGHT.jpg
Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

[Bernd]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
After careful consideration I have decided to get the SL-1210M5G.
I have found it for 488.88 thats a little more than I paid for the Pro-ject 1.2 a couple of years back.
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_LEFT.jpg
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_CENTER.jpg
http://www.electronics-expo.com/images/large/500/TECSL1210M5G_RIGHT.jpg
Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

Hi,
Well done.
I am wishing you lots of great musical hours.

Enjoy

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

OK everyone I got it hooked up and had plenty of time to play with it over the weekend.
It is definitely is an upgrade over the Pro-ject 1.2.
the high volume feedback that I was having before has been reduced drastically and since I setup the tone arm up without the head shell weight there is no rumble well at least I can not hear it.
Midrange and the bass really came to life the highs do seem to be tamed down a tiny bit, not a bad thing just tamer not so shrill.
Tried it with the factory supplied rubber mat then an extreme phono non-felt mat (shown in picture) and then tried Pro-ject's felt mat and I feel that the felt mat sounded best so I am using it for now
The Shure V15VxMR is now installed on the Technic's. Easy as pie!
I'll have to say in my opinion that the Technics is by far superior to the Pro-ject 1.2
Dead silent background
Constant speed
more gadgets that a Swiss Army knife
Great Looks.

[slate1]

Fantastic! Looks great Brandon.

Quick question - did you use the provided cartride alignment tool to align the cartridge in the headshelll? If so, are you happy with the results?

[BRANDONH]

Fantastic! Looks great Brandon.

Quick question - did you use the provided cartride alignment tool to align the cartridge in the headshelll? If so, are you happy with the results?

Thanks.
Yes I used the tool provided and then double checked it with the protractor supplied with my Shure to make sure it was square but with a good eye the tool that Technic's provides works great and the overhang was right on. I was only a little off on the squareness which is where the protractor came in handy.
I gotta say this table rocks!

[slate1]

I gotta say this table rocks!

Yes - it most certainly does! I found a Shure M97XE for $60 - may just have to order one up since the V15 is no longer in production and try it out.

[BRANDONH]

Yes - it most certainly does! I found a Shure M97XE for $60 - may just have to order one up since the V15 is no longer in production and try it out.
Amazon has them for 57.99 with free shipping
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006I5SB/102-5169975-9808159?v=glance&n=172282&n=507846&s=electronics&v=glance

[royphil345]

Hey Slate... Why do you want to try the Shure? Thought you really liked the KAB / Stanton. If You do, would definitely like to hear your impressions on that one since it's what I'm using. Was seriously considering ordering the KAB / Stanton. Gave the Shure another listen and just couldn't justify spenting the money right now. The Shure sounds just a little "closed in" to me when I first start listening, but after I get used to the slightly "round" soundstage it's always a pleasant listening experience. If you're interested, I have a V15VxMR cartridge body (no stylus). Think you can still get a stylus. I liked the sound of the M97xE better though. Although the V15VxMR had a ton of bass, it was still one of those cartridges that stressed the extreme lows and highs to my ear and lacked in midrange and that "powerful" sound.

[slate1]

Why do you want to try the Shure? Thought you really liked the KAB / Stanton.

Hey - at $60 shipped I'm willing to try anything! Well... maybe not anything.... er... nevermind.... :confused:

Anyhow - I can not imagine ANYTHING beating the KAB/Stanton - I really love this cartridge. The Ortofon was very nice, but just not my cup-o-tea for rock. Just not as "powerful" sounding as the Stanton. The Ortofon is, quite honestly, more detailed and MC like - very much so in the high end especially.

Think of the Ortofon as a 12 year old single malt scotch - something to be savored slowly over time and the KAB/Stanton as a pint of your favorite ale - something you enjoy so much that you just want another, and another... you'll get the picture!

I've read a lot about the Shure's and it seems like an ideal match for the 1200 - that's all. Curiousity more than anything!

[royphil345]

It really is an amazing cartridge for $60.00. Build quality is top-notch. Tracking is excellent. It's the only cartridge I've tried that's NEVER skipped or got "stuck" on a few of my crappier records. Was thinking the KAB / Stanton might sound just a touch livelier because of the stylus shape, while still having a rich sound like the Shure. I'm sure I'll have a weak moment and order the KAB / Stanton eventually. Let us know if you try the Shure!!!

[BRANDONH]

Think of the Ortofon as a 12 year old single malt scotch - something to be savored slowly over time
Umm single malt the one below is my fave.
a real audio enhancer.

http://www.theglenlivet.com/images/choice/ch_04p.jpg (http://www.theglenlivet.com/index_ie.html)

[Bernd]

Umm single malt the one below is my fave.
a real audio enhancer.

http://www.theglenlivet.com/images/choice/ch_04p.jpg (http://www.theglenlivet.com/index_ie.html)

Hi,
I am a Glenmorangie man. But hey nice choice.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

Hi,
I am a Glenmorangie man. But hey nice choice.
Glenfarclas, Bruichladdich, and Laphroaig are my favorites. Been to all of those distilleries as well. The last two are located on a quaint island in the Hebrides, Islay.

rw

[bialystok]

Hello all - this is my first post on this forum

I am a house music DJ and I am about to take on the huge task of recording my dancerecords to my computer. I have a high quality usb audio interface (edirol ua-101) and a pair of technics 1210m5g's. I wanted to get a very high quality recording out of my vinyl but I'm a total amateur when it comes to the audiophile scene. I was happy to hear that the techs make a very solid pair of turntables (sonically speaking). I'm basically unsure of what cartridge and phono preamp I should get to produce a good recording. For cartridges I was looking at the grado prestige line. I am a big fan of tube warmth so i was looking at the Bellari VP129 or possibly splurging on the pro-ject tubebox but I'm not sure if this is the best setup to truly represent the sound of records. If you guys could give me some advice that would be fantastic. Thanks....

[slate1]

Hello Bialystok -

I wouldn’t recommend the Grado – they’ve got a wonderful midrange but are horrendous trackers. I ran one from the Reference line (the Platinum) which is above the Prestige line and could never get it to adequately track the inner grooves no matter what alignment I used. This is going to be an especially pronounced problem if most of the records you’re looking to record have been played with DJ styli which can impart groove damage upon the more delicate inner groove area.

I also think that for this genre of music – the Grado paired with a tube amp (especially the Bellari) is going to give you too much warmth and will ultimately kill the dynamics of the music. I’d pair the Bellari up with something a little brighter that’s an excellent tracker like the Audio Technica 440ML ($100) or a KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30 ($190): you’ll get the tube warmth you’re looking for without loss of dynamics and “punch”.

I’ve found the AT-440ML to be painfully bright with solid-state phono stages but with a tube pre it should be fine. The KAB/Ortofon would be perfect, but is more expensive – I’ve got a spare KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30 I can sell you for $140 shipped worldwide if you’re interested in going that route. It’s basically the Ortofon Concorde body with the Ortofon Super OM-30 stylus so you just plug it into the headshell socket and you’re ready to go – no alignment, etc. Just go to http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1136649007 and you can read the description and see my feedback.

An even better option from a cartridge standpoint would be the KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II ($230) and a nice solid state pre-amp like a CI-Audio VPP-1 ($300) or maybe a less laid-back tube based pre like the Pro-Ject Tube-Box ($500). I'm running this cartridge with the CI-Audio pre and it's amazing - lots of warmth and mid-range magic on rock records especially.

One thing to consider with the Bellari is that it’s only got 30db of gain so you’ll need something with a pretty heafty output – no less than 4mv.

[royphil345]

I tried the Audio Technica 440ML with an S-shaped tonearm and had pretty horrible results. Heard what sounded like speed variations caused by the cartridge suspension flexing on slightly warped records. Would probably work much better with a lower mass arm. Don't think it would be the best choice for dance music either. Just not the punchiest sounding cartridge.

An Ortofon Super OM 20 or 30 would probably work well. Or the KAB /Ortofons and Stantons that Slate mentioned if you want to spend a little more. Still VERY tempted to try the KAB / Stanton Groovemaster II myself, even though it's a "Frankenstein"... LOL

[bialystok]

Hello Bialystok -
An even better option from a cartridge standpoint would be the KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II ($230) and a nice solid state pre-amp like a CI-Audio VPP-1 ($300) or the Pro-Ject Tube-Box ($500). I'm running this cartridge with the CI-Audio pre and it's amazing - lots of warmth and mid-range magic on rock records especially.



Could the TubeBox be classified as a solid state pre-amp? So the Groovemaster II and the TubeBox would give me a pretty good representation of the music? I was worried the wrong combination would either give me too much bass, or wash out some details - so its a good thing I asked.

[slate1]

Yeah - I didn't like the 440ML on my system but never had the problems royphil345 is talking about as it wasn't mounted up on the Technics at the time. It was BRIGHT through my solid state Dynavector pre-amp at the time - painfully so - as was the AT-0C9 MC cart.

The Tube Box is not solid state - sorry about the confusion on that. It's just not as "dark" sounding as the Bellari. The only thing I would worry about with the Groovemaster/Tube Box combo is that it's going to be too dark as well. The highs on the Groovemaster are not very forward at all - they're very smooth - that coupled with the warmness of a tube phonostage could result in a quite dark and non-dynamic presentation.

I agree with royphil345 that the Ortofon Pro-S20 or S30 with a tube phonostage like the Tube Box or the Bellari would probably be your best bet at getting the tube warmth you're looking for coupled with the dynamics you need for dance music. I don't want it to come off like I'm pushing you that way because I have a ProS30 for sale! :D It makes no difference to me if you buy mine or one straight from KAB - I still think that may be your best bet to get where you're trying to go.

The Bellari and the Ortofon combo would only run you around $340 - $400 depending on where you get the gear - not a lot of money at all for a great cartridge and phono-stage. One nice thing about the Bellari stage too is that it's got a built in sub-sonic filter (as does the CI-Audio VPP-1 stage...) - the Bellari is a lot of gear for the money if you can mate it with a higher output cartridge like the Ortofon.

Understand, this is all just "best guess" based on my experience and having actually heard this equipment - I've never put any of these combos together myself though other than the Groovemaster / CI-Audio combination.

[slate1]

Still VERY tempted to try the KAB / Stanton Groovemaster II myself, even though it's a "Frankenstein"... LOL

Come-on man! You know you want the FrankenCart!!! I tell you what - email me offline and I'll send you a CD-R of something played back through the Groovemaster / CI-Audio combo if you want - I've got tons of 70's rock and 50's/60's jazz. Should give you a pretty good idea of what it's going to sound like in your system.

[BRANDONH]

Hello all - this is my first post on this forum

I am a house music DJ and I am about to take on the huge task of recording my dancerecords to my computer. I have a high quality usb audio interface (edirol ua-101) and a pair of technics 1210m5g's. I wanted to get a very high quality recording out of my vinyl but I'm a total amateur when it comes to the audiophile scene. I was happy to hear that the techs make a very solid pair of turntables (sonically speaking). I'm basically unsure of what cartridge and phono preamp I should get to produce a good recording. For cartridges I was looking at the grado prestige line. I am a big fan of tube warmth so i was looking at the Bellari VP129 or possibly splurging on the pro-ject tubebox but I'm not sure if this is the best setup to truly represent the sound of records. If you guys could give me some advice that would be fantastic. Thanks....
I really can not help you with this question you may be able to find answers from other DJ's on this site:
http://www.djforums.com/forums/index.php?

[slate1]

Brandon - ordered up the Shure M97XE yesterday from Amazon - shipped today so MIGHT be here by this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out and how it compares to the Stanton. Hope you're still enjoying the SL-1210 as much as I am!

[BRANDONH]

Brandon - ordered up the Shure M97XE yesterday from Amazon - shipped today so MIGHT be here by this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out and how it compares to the Stanton. Hope you're still enjoying the SL-1210 as much as I am!

I have heard good things about that cartridge I think you will be pleased.
One thing about the removable head once you set it up you can swap them out depending on your mood.

As for the TT I can not get enough of it and cant wait till I get home to play more records.
I never had this much fun with my Pro-ject.
I think I'll play the Boston CBS 1/2 speed mastered tonight.
Really looking forward to Friday so I can blast it to drainbramaging levels.
lolo

[bialystok]

I really can not help you with this question you may be able to find answers from other DJ's on this site:
http://www.djforums.com/forums/index.php?


Funny you mention that site - because I basically live on it. I figured my question was more of an audiophile question than a DJ question. But I did ask there and didn't receive much of a response. I emailed pro-ject about the tube box and I'm calling KAB for their input as well - Slate you have been a HUGE help I really appreciate it. I really want to get a nice well rounded sound out of my records before they're too worn out to play. I'll be switching over to Serato Scratch Live soon so I can still use my turntables but still preserve my vinyl collection.

[slate1]

I think I'll play the Boston CBS 1/2 speed mastered tonight.
Really looking forward to Friday so I can blast it to drainbramaging levels.
lolo

HAH! I was playing that very record just last night!!

I've got the 1/2 speed master and an original Orange-label Epic too. Believe it or not - the original Epic blows the 1/2 speed master out of the water... not true of the later pressings I've heard but, man, that original just smokes!

I know what you mean about the table - I've had $3000 rigs that didn't give me near the enjoyment of the SL-1210.

Bialystok - you're most welcome - good luck and let us know what you decide. Kevin at KAB is one of the best guys you'll ever deal with.

[bialystok]

So I talked to Kevin for about 1/2 hour about what I was trying to accomplish. Long story short he said my turntable is perfect - and recommended the ortofon pros30 or the stanton groovemaster for cartridges. He said that if I was looking for a preamp he said to just go for the $99 music hall phono pack. The combination of those would turn out a very good recording that I'd be very happy with. He seems really cool and straightforward about everything.

[slate1]

So I talked to Kevin for about 1/2 hour about what I was trying to accomplish. Long story short he said my turntable is perfect - and recommended the ortofon pros30 or the stanton groovemaster for cartridges. He said that if I was looking for a preamp he said to just go for the $99 music hall phono pack. The combination of those would turn out a very good recording that I'd be very happy with. He seems really cool and straightforward about everything.

He's one of the best guys I've ever dealt with - just fantastic. Glad you talked to him and glad he was able to help. The Phono-pack... didn't even think about that. It's a mod'd Pro-Ject Phono-box and is one of the quietest phono-pre's in its price range. That's a good suggestion and would match well with either cartridge. Let me know if you want to talk about the Pro-S30, I'm motivated to move it!

[bialystok]

Just a quick question about that shure M97xE - what is this cartridge supposed to sound like in comparison to the stanton or the ortofon I'm considering? Would it not provide me the results I'm looking for? I only ask because I would save about 100 bucks on it.

[slate1]

I'll have thte M97xE in a couple of days and can let you know. It's supposed to be a very laid back neutral cartridge without much "punch". There have been a lot of folks who feel it's not that great a cartridge for rock - we'll see!

It will, without a doubt, be less dynamic and punchy than the Ortofon. I'm curious though to see how it compares to the Stanton. If it's close to the Stanton in terms of neutrality and slam it would be a bargain. You'd have a hell of a setup for less than $200! The M97XE should work for jazz no matter what - so I figured it was worth the $60 risk..

[bialystok]

I'm VERY curious to see what you think of it - Please let me know.

[slate1]

Okay - got the M97xE this morning...

Here's my rundown on these carts running through the solid-state CI-Audio VPP-1. Here's how I set the cartridges up:

KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II AE:
- VTF: 1.3g
- 40db Gain @ 47k
- 0pF Loading

KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30
- VTF: 1.5g
- 40db Gain @ 47k
- 100pF Loading

Shure M97xE
- VTF: 1.25g
- 50db Gain @ 47k
- 100pF Loading

Okay, so now that that's out of the way - all VTA was set with the arm dead level and alignment on the M97xE was done using the Technics alignment jig.

Sound:

KAB/Stanton Groovemaster II AE:
- Highs: Clean, clear and much more subtle than the other two carts. When a hi-hat is hit though, you know it. This cartridge could in no way EVER be called bright!
- Midrange: very very nice and warm
- Bass: VERY strong and has a very tuneful nature to it - not "punchy", just natural. Can seem to get a little "congested" at times.
- Tracking: could not be better....
- Overall Impression: One of the most natural sounding cartridges I've ever heard - sounds like live music and nothing else.

KAB/Ortofon Pro-S30
- Highs: Brighter than the Stanton - but not "bright" in general. Very detailed and quite extended.
- Midrange: transparent
- Bass: very nice bass - extended but not as much so as the Stanton. Much more "punchy" than the Stanton - gets to the beat of the music very very well.
- Tracking: Excellent
- Overall Impression: Brighter than the Stanton - but not glaringly so. Excellent tracker and very nice punchy bass. Midrange gives up some to the Stanton but matched with warmer gear could keep up very very well.

Shure M97xE
- Highs: People who have described this cartridge as "rolled off" must have the capacitance loaded wrong. At 100pF it's got very nice, extended highs - more so than the Ortofon even and certainly more so than the Stanton.
- Midrange: similar to the Ortofon - qute transparent
- Bass: weak - there's no other way to put it and I'd imagine that this has a lot to do with people calling this cartridge "boring" or uninvolving
- Tracking: Excellent - very good, especially at this price point
- Overall Impression: A bargain, no doubt, but the weak bass is an issue. Still, the best $60 cartridge I've EVER heard!

I've come to the conclusion that listed output levels are somewhat irrelevant and these three cartridges certainly hit that point home. These are all listed at around 4mv output but all yielded much different results.

With the Stanton and the VPP-1 set at 40db gain, the volume on my amp sits at around 9:00 for normal listening levels. The Ortofon at around 10:00 and the Shure would not even play at acceptable levels with the VPP-1 set at 40db. I’d have to turn the volume to 12-2:00 to get a decent playing volume. Even at 50db gain the Shure required around 11:00 on the amp to play at any volume that would be considered “normal”.

So – my conclusion is that, in my system, I’d rank them as follows:

1 – KAB/Stanton ($230+s/h)
2 – Ortofon ProS30 ($180+s/h)
3 – Shure M97xE ($60)

Interestingly enough – they follow right along the price curve as well.

[royphil345]

Thanks for the review Slate!!!

I think the reason I would call it uninvolving is it's lack of frequency range. You can get highs out of it, but I think most people who use it end up putting just a little more tracking force on it to get a more balanced sound (otherwise too lean and annoying in the long run, end up with a pretty balanced sound, but rolled off on both ends). Like I said, very listenable, but It isn't great in the dynamics or wide frequency response departments which is why I especially didn't recommend it for archiving. Would be nice to have a little higher output too. One of these days I'll order one of those "Frankensteins"!!! Sounds like either of the other two cartridges would be an improvement.

[slate1]

Thanks for the review Slate!!!

I think the reason I would call it uninvolving is it's lack of frequency range. You can get highs out of it, but I think most people who use it end up putting just a little more tracking force on it to get a more balanced sound (otherwise too lean and annoying in the long run, end up with a pretty balanced sound, but rolled off on both ends). Like I said, very listenable, but It isn't great in the dynamics or wide frequency response departments which is why I especially didn't recommend it for archiving. Would be nice to have a little higher output too. One of these days I'll order one of those "Frankensteins"!!! Sounds like either of the other two cartridges would be an improvement.

I think you're right - I played around with VTA a bit and dropping it down does fill out the bass some but the highs go away quick - tough to get a nice tonal balance out of this cartridge. Surprising given that it's an eliptical stylus... :confused:

[slate1]

Well, for only the second time in 20 odd years of being in the audiophile game I snapped the cantilever clean off my KAB/Ortofon OM-30 today!

I guess I can take solace in the fact that it wasn't the KAB/Stanton... :rolleyes:

[royphil345]

That sucks!!! Sorry to hear that. Did the same thing to my V15. Had it mounted on a headshell stored in the spare headshell holder on my turntable. Clipped it while changing records. Now when I use that holder, the stylus faces the back!!! Didn't much care for the V15. Would've been nice to get a few bucks for it though.

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
I am a Glenmorangie man. But hey nice choice.

Peace

Bernd
Hey Bernd,
I went to the liquor store last Friday and was planning on getting a bottle.
I thought Glenlivet was expensive! Well I went ahead and bought the Glenlivet this time.
The Glenmorangie had three that were aged in different types of wood casks and were about $68.00 a bottle but less than the $101.00 a bottle stuff.
I plan to get one of each of the three when my bonus comes in.

[Bernd]

Hey Bernd,
I went to the liquor store last Friday and was planning on getting a bottle.
I thought Glenlivet was expensive! Well I went ahead and bought the Glenlivet this time.
The Glenmorangie had three that were aged in different types of wood casks and were about $68.00 a bottle but less than the $101.00 a bottle stuff.
I plan to get one of each of the three when my bonus comes in.

Hi,
I think that's one of the few things that's still cheaper over here. My favourite is the one from the Sherry casks. A real depth of flavour and not harsh.
I will pour one tonight and make a toast to your future purchase.
How is the new TT ?

Merry Christmas to you

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
I think that's one of the few things that's still cheaper over here. My favourite is the one from the Sherry casks. A real depth of flavour and not harsh.
I will pour one tonight and make a toast to your future purchase.
How is the new TT ?

Merry Christmas to you

Bernd
Yea since there were three different kind of casks I want to try them all.
I just love the TT and dont think I have ever liked one as much as this one.
I have played it every day since I received it.
Everyone that listened the old Pro-ject 1.2 then listened to the Technics likes the sound of the Technics better than the the Pro-ject.
I am really suprised at the detail this table can pick up and the dead silent background.
No regrets
Thinking of trying the KAB Groove master just out of curiosity though. The Shure is one heck of cart but since there is a place to keep an extra cart I think it would be fun to have KAB as well.

[JohnMichael]

Hey Bernd,
I went to the liquor store last Friday and was planning on getting a bottle.
I thought Glenlivet was expensive! Well I went ahead and bought the Glenlivet this time.
The Glenmorangie had three that were aged in different types of wood casks and were about $68.00 a bottle but less than the $101.00 a bottle stuff.
I plan to get one of each of the three when my bonus comes in.


I enjoy the Glenfiddich 12 year old single malt and think it is a good value and smoother than Glenlivet. I want to try the Glenmorangie. A cardiologist I know enjoys it but has never shared any with me. Maybe for New years eve I will spring for a bottle.

[Bernd]

I enjoy the Glenfiddich 12 year old single malt and think it is a good value and smoother than Glenlivet. I want to try the Glenmorangie. A cardiologist I know enjoys it but has never shared any with me. Maybe for New years eve I will spring for a bottle.

Hi,

The 12 year old Glenfiddich is a nice tipple.

Go on get a bottle of the "Glen of Tranquility" for New Year.

Bernd