The Bose saga...why?

[vxaudio]

I have noticed that many members here bash BOSE, but other than saying they are too expensive, have no other reason. My surround system is a 6.1 with 601 IV fronts, 201 sides and 161 centers and a svs pci 2531 sub. Personally, i think that my system sounds awesome, and have compared many speakers. Why is it that most people here hate the direct and reflecting technology Bose uses so much compared to the typical only direct? Personally, i wouldnt buy any of there CUBE setups, but then again, i have room for larger speakers. For the size, I do think they are awesome though. Bose also has so many other technologys such as NOISE cancelling and the various audio adjusting features in car audio that uses a mic to balance things. I have had a Mercedes Benz, a corvette, and now an Avalance with BOSE and many other companies support them such as Acura, Maytag, the list goes on.. Just wondering if most people have a justified reason for straight out hating BOSE, or if it just the trendy, easy thing to say? Im not trying to start a war, It just seems that many people are closed minded with all the technology's Bose has to offer compared to most, if not all other speaker companies.

[N. Abstentia]

Oh this should be good. I especially like the part about "all the technology Bose has developed"..that's a good one!

Bose is a marketing company, not a speaker company. The technology they 'developed' is mainly decades old designs and ideas that they slightly tweaked so they could get a patent and say "better sound through research"...but they forgot to add "other peoples research" to the end of that.

Here's a good read:
http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm

And another:
http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

And I cringe every time I think about this frequency response curve for Bose speakers:
http://www.geocities.com/p_iturra/Misc_HT_Speakers.html
The bass module goes way up to around 300-400 hz. Bad.
There are sharp peaks. Very bad.
The respose curve nose dives at around 15khz. Atrocious.


But like you say, at least you don't have the little cute cubes.

[JoeE SP9]

I am curious as to what speakers you compared to your Bose system. If you are ever in my area I invite you to come by and hear just why there is so much Bose bashing.

[GMichael]

Bose does not make a bad speaker. It's usualy what gets most people started down the road to audio-bliss. But it's only the begining, not the end-all. Most people starting out with Bose are so happy about how much better they sound than their old system that they come to a board like this one and state, "Bose are the best ever!" To this the answer is a loud. "H.ll no they aren't!" They are OK. Welcome to the world of better sound. You aint heard nothing yet though. Hang in, enjoy your Bose (they aren't bad), but you'll hear better if you look in high end shops. Stay around and learn. There's so much better available. Take notes and start a wish list.
The people on this board (and many others) have heard the "Bose are the best" statement from nubies so many times that they don't hold back and will rip into whoever makes this very false statement.

[paul_pci]

Bose does not make a bad speaker. It's usualy what gets most people started down the road to audio-bliss. But it's only the begining, not the end-all. Most people starting out with Bose are so happy about how much better they sound than their old system that they come to a board like this one and state, "Bose are the best ever!" To this the answer is a loud. "H.ll no they aren't!" They are OK. Welcome to the world of better sound. You aint heard nothing yet though. Hang in, enjoy your Bose (they aren't bad), but you'll hear better if you look in high end shops. Stay around and learn. There's so much better available. Take notes and start a wish list.
The people on this board (and many others) have heard the "Bose are the best" statement from nubies so many times that they don't hold back and will rip into whoever makes this very false statement.

It's an end all when someone dumps their life savings on that crap.

[vxaudio]

thanks for your post, i think you made alot of great points. Although i would never make an absolute statement like "bose is best", you are right about the fact that bose "It's usualy what gets most people started down the road to audio-bliss." My case scenario exactly. I started off with the 601 IV's are stereo speakers and got them for around $350 or so. I compared them to jbl, polk, klipse, sony, a few other and athena. I liked the athena's alot, but they were more expensive at the time. so i went with the 601's. Since i already had them and wanted to stick with the same brand in hopes of matching levels, i added the 201's and vcs10s. when i joined this site, i was in the market for a subwoofer and after alot of research, it seemed apparent that SVS was the best route. and i couldnt be happier. i auditioned polk, jbl, infinity, velodyne, ect for subs. i liked the velodynes alot, but they were too expensive, and i went out on a limb and went with all the reviews here with a svs pci2531. Thanks for all that help. I few more questions: THE questions that still remains from my original post is WHY Direct speakers are preferred over BOSE's direct and reflecting method??? Also, for the future...what companies might be considered "the SVS of regular speakers" ie best price for the best quality? thanks.

[jamison]

another valid point to consider about Bose... consider the construction of the speaker itself...Bose uses very cheaply made materials in their speakers. the woofers usually have foam surrounds on them which will rot... they use paper cones in their tweeters. also they use cheap enlclosures and terminals to connect to.. My brotherinlaw has a pair of 301's that are about ten years old... just last week he was telling me how Bose is the best thing since sliced toast..to my brotherinlaw a speaker is nothing more than a appliance... it serves a purpose nothing more. he then cranked up some movie and alll of a sudden the bass just went kerfluey.. come to find out the surround on the woofers rotted out. Too many people i think look at the name and say well if its made by bose it must be good. they listen to them without listening to any other speakers.or they listen to the gee wiz surround sound demo at best buy and think wow they are awesome ill take em...45 minutes later the 16 yr old that waited on them has finished his cell phone conversation with his girlfriend, smoked a joint then gotten his horseplay with the other workers out of the way and the customer is now out $2500.00 and thinks he got the deal of a lifetime cause he bought bose. given a value rating vs price Bose just doesnt offer value.
neither does the big box retailers... i swear i will never buy anthing electronic at best buy circuit city etc.

[GMichael]

i would never make an absolute statement like "bose is best", .

Good, that's the part that usualy starts the flame wars around here.


you are right about the fact that bose "It's usualy what gets most people started down the road to audio-bliss." My case scenario exactly. I started off with the 601 IV's are stereo speakers and got them for around $350 or so. .

Cool, welcome to the road to audio-bliss. Enjoy the trip. Don't forget to stop and listen to eveything you can.


I compared them to jbl, polk, klipse, sony, a few other and athena. I liked the athena's alot, but they were more expensive at the time. so i went with the 601's. Since i already had them and wanted to stick with the same brand in hopes of matching levels, i added the 201's and vcs10s. .

They are a good start.


when i joined this site, i was in the market for a subwoofer and after alot of research, it seemed apparent that SVS was the best route. and i couldnt be happier. i auditioned polk, jbl, infinity, velodyne, ect for subs. i liked the velodynes alot, but they were too expensive, and i went out on a limb and went with all the reviews here with a svs pci2531. .

I've heard good things about these. Haven't heard them myself yet.


Thanks for all that help. .

Piece of cake. But you'll find many others here with more knowledge than I have about audio.


I few more questions: THE questions that still remains from my original post is WHY Direct speakers are preferred over BOSE's direct and reflecting method??? .

I don't think that it's the reflecting method that people here don't like. It's that they charge so much for them. They are not worth the extra $$ that they charge. Also, the way that so many people do come hear and make that claim to fame that Bose is the best. The people here know better and it drives them crazy.


Also, for the future...what companies might be considered "the SVS of regular speakers" ie best price for the best quality? thanks.

Too many oppinions on that. Very few agree to who is the best. Also, SVS may be good, but there are better there also.
Here's a good place to start. Good reading.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10906

[robert393]

Oh this should be good. I especially like the part about "all the technology Bose has developed"..that's a good one!

Bose is a marketing company, not a speaker company. The technology they 'developed' is mainly decades old designs and ideas that they slightly tweaked so they could get a patent and say "better sound through research"...but they forgot to add "other peoples research" to the end of that.

Here's a good read:
http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm

And another:
http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

And I cringe every time I think about this frequency response curve for Bose speakers:
http://www.geocities.com/p_iturra/Misc_HT_Speakers.html
The bass module goes way up to around 300-400 hz. Bad.
There are sharp peaks. Very bad.
The respose curve nose dives at around 15khz. Atrocious.


But like you say, at least you don't have the little cute cubes.

Proof once again of the old saying:
"No High's, No Low's.......must be BOSE!

Bose is a MARKETING company....thank you N. Abstentia I could not have explained it any better.

But I do have a couple comments:
I own a car-stereo shop, and I can tell you that the auto makers putting Bose in thier vehicles are doing it for a reason....PROFITABILITY. NOT FOR (QUALITY) SOUND. They sell you the car with a sizable mark-up for that "premium" system. So they make that $$. Guess what happens when one of your speakers (paper cone $1.75 cost) "blows". You gotta go BACK TO THE DEALER for the replacement, because NO REPUTABLE car stereo shop will get within 10 feet a Bose speaker (we won't sell a customer that junk!). So, the dealer makes MORE $$ from you!! Sweet deal for them everytime someone buys one of those "premium" systems. PT Barnum said it best " their's a sucker born ever minute"!

I replace about 10 of those "premium" systems a week and put quality after-market systems in thier place.

Bose certainly has a place in the audio market, but it's place is with the uninformed consumer, usually the consumer just starting out....before they know what good-sound really is.

Robert

[JoeE SP9]

Has anyone heard about when Amar Bose and Paul Klipsch saw each other walking down opposite sides of the street. Paul cupped his hands over his mouth faced Amar and hollered "Hi Amar, how are You?". Amar turned his back to Paul and hollered at the store front "Fine Paul, how are You?".

There are as many opinions on speakers as there are grains of sand. The only consistancy is that, as ones ears become sensitized to higher quality sound the ability to tolerate the "sound of BOSE" is decreased. Go somewhere and give some real high end speakers a listen. You will hear what I and the other people on this site are striving for. If you can attend one, a Stereophile show is a good place to listen to the "good" stuff. As for myself, I will have nothing other than panels. I used to own Magnepans. Currently I own electrostatics. I want full range ribbons. I will humbly accept donations to the JoeE ribbon fund.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[GMichael]

Has anyone heard about when Amar Bose and Paul Klipsch saw each other walking down opposite sides of the street. Paul cupped his hands over his mouth faced Amar and hollered "Hi Amar, how are You?". Amar turned his back to Paul and hollered at the store front "Fine Paul, how are You?".

There are as many opinions on speakers as there are grains of sand. The only consistancy is that, as ones ears become sensitized to higher quality sound the ability to tolerate the "sound of BOSE" is decreased. Go somewhere and give some real high end speakers a listen. You will hear what I and the other people on this site are striving for. If you can attend one, a Stereophile show is a good place to listen to the "good" stuff. As for myself, I will have nothing other than panels. I used to own Magnepans. Currently I own electrostatics. I want full range ribbons. I will humbly accept donations to the JoeE ribbon fund.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

You can donate those old useless Magnepans over here.

[thekid]

RE: "The technology they 'developed' is mainly decades old designs and ideas that they slightly tweaked so they could get a patent and say "better sound through research"...but they forgot to add "other peoples research" to the end of that."

Bose can be "bashed" for several reasons and I say this as an owner of Bose but can we hang up the tired old comments like the one quoted above. The US patent office issues patents not the company applying for them. The Bose bashers like to slam Bose for getting awarded patents that the bashers feel are in some manner undeserving or for Bose having the audacity to market the fact they have patented technology. Most technology is built on the backs of existing technology so Bose is not breaking new ground here.

Back to the original post.....

IMO
Bose can be bashed for pushing their HT systems which are overpriced relative to even their own stand alone speakers. I think these Cube/HT systems are the main source of criticisms that Bose is overpriced The direct-reflecting technology is more challenging to set-up and I do not think it offers any particular advantage to the listening experience as Bose marketing claims.

Having said all of that I do like my Bose set-up that cost me less than $550 which I understand is considered low budget for the average member here. When those 6 lucky lottery numbers finally hit I will explore other systems and see where my ear takes me.

VX if you like your set up leave it at that. Keep an open mind about your sytem and those of others on this forum and don't let the flames get to you.

[topspeed]

THE questions that still remains from my original post is WHY Direct speakers are preferred over BOSE's direct and reflecting method??? In the latest TAS, Kevin Voeks of Revel (ne Harman Intl.) noted that ABX testing has conclusively proven that one of the biggest detriments to perceived sound quality are first order reflections. Bose's direct-reflecting method tries to use room boundries to diffuse the sound and expand the image without considering different room nodes, acoustics, or interaction on the whole. Therefore, the vast majority of the time, the concept merely muddies the sound as it cancels/excites too many frequencies. You're left with a mish mash of sound instead of accuracy. Make sense?


Also, for the future...what companies might be considered "the SVS of regular speakers" ie best price for the best quality? "The Best" is relative to your level of experience, purchasing ability, and sanity. Speakers are so subjective, it's not inconceivable for many normal people to consider Bose to be the best value. Of course, audiophiles are hardly normal :rolleyes:. Many consider the $4K Von Schweikert VR4jr's as a screaming bargain if only because they get ridiculously close to the state of the art sound found in $40K+ speakers. Again it's all relative.

Honestly, as long as you're happy with your rig, that's all that matters. I can appreciate that your ego wants assurances that you didn't make a mistake. We all feel the same way. That said, I say enjoy the music and remember, the only opinion that matters is yours.

Hope this helps.

[thekid]

Well said Topspeed!!!

[gorilla196635]

Bottom line is Bose are just what they are small speakers...
Good for old people and snobs that dont want to spoil there decor...
You want good by normal size speakers.
I HATE BOSE

____________________________________
Mits311 65" HDTV RPTV
Yamaha RXV995 receiver
Yamaha CDC735 CDP
Pioneer CLDM301LDP
Mits HSU510 hifi VCR
Pioneer DV563A DVDP
Panasonic ATSC HD tuner
DirectTV HBH DD rec.
Polk RT 16 main spks
BIC center channel
Klipsch Synergy S3 surround
Sony RMAV3000 Remote Control

[vxaudio]

fyi, bose makes "normal" sized speakers. What kind of person "HATES" a speaker company? Why are you being so closed minded?. I think that every speaker company has something good to offer; just some more than others.

[evil__betty]

I think what make many people dislike/hate BOSE is because of the kind of people the company breeds not nessicarily the product itself - because that doesn't sound that bad (compared to many cheapo HTiB, BOSE is a huge step in the right direction to better sound).

Expample: I work in the audio video industry and deal with all sorts of people and products. The store that I work for does not carry BOSE (I'm quite glad - very little mark up for the salesman), but I do have to try to sell people out of BOSE and into something else. About three days ago, a couple come up to me after looking over the store for a while and ask where the closest BOSE dealer is. I tell them where they can find one, but ask what BOSE system they were looking for (in hopes that I would be able to sell them something I have at my store). They tell me that they are looking for the Lifestyle 48 (about $5000 CAN). I asked if they have listened to it or any other system and asked for their oppinion on them. They repleid that their brother-in-law has a $10,000 Paradigm system that does not come close to what the BOSE system can do.

I agreed that the BOSE system is a step in the right direction if you are moving from tv speakers to a HT set up, but for the price, there are soooooo many other options for equal or better sound at a lower price. The look they gave me was as if I had personally insulted thier mother. I explanied that physics limit the ammount of sound a tiny speaker in a plastic cabinit can make and that a 6" driver in a wooden cab will produce better sound. They basically told me that my system at home was crap and that the only thing that they will ever buy is BOSE. They also said that their brother-in-law was going to sell his system and get the Lifestyle 48 system.

This kind of arrogance and rude attitude leave me with a sour taste in my mouth for anything that has any ties to BOSE. Before I get flamed, I know that it is not BOSE that told me my system was crap, but their advertising has done a fabulous job brainwashing those that know nothing about sound. Those are the people that I have to deal with everyday. Please note, this is NOT a rare occurance to encounter people like this. Ask any audio salesman and they will back me up on this.

[GMichael]

I think what make many people dislike/hate BOSE is because of the kind of people the company breeds not nessicarily the product itself - because that doesn't sound that bad (compared to many cheapo HTiB, BOSE is a huge step in the right direction to better sound).

Expample: I work in the audio video industry and deal with all sorts of people and products. The store that I work for does not carry BOSE (I'm quite glad - very little mark up for the salesman), but I do have to try to sell people out of BOSE and into something else. About three days ago, a couple come up to me after looking over the store for a while and ask where the closest BOSE dealer is. I tell them where they can find one, but ask what BOSE system they were looking for (in hopes that I would be able to sell them something I have at my store). They tell me that they are looking for the Lifestyle 48 (about $5000 CAN). I asked if they have listened to it or any other system and asked for their oppinion on them. They repleid that their brother-in-law has a $10,000 Paradigm system that does not come close to what the BOSE system can do.

I agreed that the BOSE system is a step in the right direction if you are moving from tv speakers to a HT set up, but for the price, there are soooooo many other options for equal or better sound at a lower price. The look they gave me was as if I had personally insulted thier mother. I explanied that physics limit the ammount of sound a tiny speaker in a plastic cabinit can make and that a 6" driver in a wooden cab will produce better sound. They basically told me that my system at home was crap and that the only thing that they will ever buy is BOSE. They also said that their brother-in-law was going to sell his system and get the Lifestyle 48 system.

This kind of arrogance and rude attitude leave me with a sour taste in my mouth for anything that has any ties to BOSE. Before I get flamed, I know that it is not BOSE that told me my system was crap, but their advertising has done a fabulous job brainwashing those that know nothing about sound. Those are the people that I have to deal with everyday. Please note, this is NOT a rare occurance to encounter people like this. Ask any audio salesman and they will back me up on this.

I feel your pain Evil. I was on the flip side of this. I went to CC to look over the HK receivers & Infinity speakers they sell. After telling the sales person that I had a budget of around $2k for everything and wanted to hear the HK, he told me that I was too old to hear the difference between models. That I should just get a Bose system. I listened for awhile as he told me how good Bose was. He took me into a room to listen. When I asked again to go into the other room with the other receivers (they don't keep these things together) he told me I was wasting my time with those.
Nothing against Bose. I have no trouble with a company making money. They do that very well. And their product is OK, but I did not like that sales person very much.

[topspeed]

Evil,
I don't doubt you for one second. When I'm on vacation, sometimes I'll go into a Bose store for giggles. The vast majority of people that frequent these stores are posers. You know, the kind of people that are more into the label than anything else. It doesn't surprise me that they display this kind of arrogant, chip-on-the-shoulder attitude.

The problem is you represent the reasoned voice of reality, and trust me, reality is the last thing these type of people want to deal with. Try changing your sales pitch and play to their insecurities and need for recognition. Support how great Bose is, and then level shift them by noting that the brand doesn't hold as much cache with those in the know. By installing a system consisting of [insert your brands here], they will not only have a superior system, but they will the respect of the elite.

My dad once told me an absolute truism regarding how to spot the wealthy from the posers: Those that don't have it put the big bills on the outside (of a billfold), those that do put the big bills on the inside.



Note to Bose owners:
I am not calling you all posers. I am specifically talking about the type of people Evil Betty describes. If you're on this site, clearly you're not the mindless sheep I am talking about.

You may now return to our regularly scheduled program :).

[rockecat]

After reading so much on how the majority here feel about Bose maybe we should take a survey and find out how many Bose owners also own a Harley Davidson. Old technology,big and heavy,handle like a semi and appeal to the same crowd.

[GMichael]

After reading so much on how the majority here feel about Bose maybe we should take a survey and find out how many Bose owners also own a Harley Davidson. Old technology,big and heavy,handle like a semi and appeal to the same crowd.

Not the same. Harleys have never claimed to be as fast or handle better than rice. It's just a whole different feel. It's not something that can be put down on paper. They don't go as fast. They don't handle as well. They need more repairs. All this is known by anyone riding one. But we buy them anyhow. For reasons that statistics will never understand.
Same crowd? How many prepies on Harleys these days?

[rockecat]

Not bashing HD I own one and around 20 others I also own a Bose product I really like my headphones. I just think it is so easy to bash a product and jump on a bandwagon.Bose must have something that appeals to a lot of people just like HD so my hat is off to them.

[GMichael]

I don't mind Bose. I think they are much better than what the average person is used to. I also do like other bikes. I had a Ninja 900 years ago. It was FAST AS H.LL. But I spent to much time in the 100+ range. I needed something to slow me down. HD's are built like tanks, drive like tanks, and handle like tanks. Once in awhile I'll get on it hard for a few seconds and look down at the speedometter to see that I'm doing 70 or 80. When I did the same with the Kowi I'd look down to see 140 or 150. Too fast! People die this way.

[rockecat]

What is really interesting is in many ways both companies through some great marketing
really changed thier respective industries and made a resurgance that was felt throughout
the market, other companies have copied both in order to gain marketshare.

[GMichael]

OK, I'll have to agree with that. I just think that they appeal to two different crowds. Most of the HD riders that I know would rather have the biggest speakers possible. Just as long as they go loud, look intimidating, and have plenty of base. Oh, and can hold at least a 6 pack of beer on top.

Wanna run the poll anyhow for sh.ts & giggles? I'll get it started.

[rockecat]

OK, I'll have to agree with that. I just think that they appeal to two different crowds. Most of the HD riders that I know would rather have the biggest speakers possible. Just as long as they go loud, look intimidating, and have plenty of base. Oh, and can hold at least a 6 pack of beer on top.

Wanna run the poll anyhow for sh.ts & giggles? I'll get it started.


It would be interesting, I noticed when I have my Bose headphones on I prefer Corona.
But when I crank up the old JBL's I have a thirst for Budweiser mmmm I just now realized
that , I may need a shrink :D

[GMichael]

Too funny. Check out the poll.

[mixadude]

HDs do hold their resale value much better... not sure about Bose

[rockecat]

Sweeeet, I think I know where this poll is headed.

[rockecat]

HDs do hold their resale value much better... not sure about Bose

Just like Hd, Bose resale is very good check out e-bay and you will see.

[GMichael]

Sweeeet, I think I know where this poll is headed.

Did you vote yet?

[rockecat]

I voted , no fair though any time I see the F^%^ I just have to click it just cant help myself!

[GMichael]

I couldn't leave that one out. It was calling my name.........

[rockecat]

I couldn't leave that one out. It was calling my name.........

I have a two for one coupon for the shrink, maybe we can find one that has a Bose wave radio playing elevator music while we discuss the intermost deep dark feelings of really wanting to buy the Bose but how are mothers told us that THD would ruin are hearing :D sure hope the serve Corona.

[jocko_nc]

Question: Is Bose the only 100% audio-only company that mass markets? I am exempting diversified electronics manufacturers, a la Sony. Strictly audio. I am trying to recall a single speaker, amp, etc. manufacturer that advertises on television and radio. I cannot come up with any. I recall Jensen and Kraco (sp) car system ads way back when. Wasn't Jensen the big name in car spreakers at the time? Bose ads, however, are everywhere. They have plastered the airwaves for a decade or more now. It makes sense they have brand recognition and loyalty amongst the unwashed masses. That is the only name they can cite.

Another question: Bose advertises heavily in the mass market, other (speaker) manufacturers do not. The other speaker manufacturers advertise in trade and afficionado circles, does Bose advertise there? I do not know, but suspect not. I suspect that most consumers who can name 10 or more loudspeaker manufacturers do not own Bose. I suspect that consumers who can name several driver manufacturers or describe the function of a crossover hardly ever own Bose. I suspect the more knowlegdeable the consumer, the less likely he owns Bose.

Just some thoughts...

FWIW, my parents have a Bose system. I think it is an abomination.

jocko

[GMichael]

Question: Is Bose the only 100% audio-only company that mass markets? I am exempting diversified electronics manufacturers, a la Sony. Strictly audio. I am trying to recall a single speaker, amp, etc. manufacturer that advertises on television and radio. I cannot come up with any. I recall Jensen and Kraco (sp) car system ads way back when. Wasn't Jensen the big name in car spreakers at the time? Bose ads, however, are everywhere. They have plastered the airwaves for a decade or more now. It makes sense they have brand recognition and loyalty amongst the unwashed masses. That is the only name they can cite.

Another question: Bose advertises heavily in the mass market, other (speaker) manufacturers do not. The other speaker manufacturers advertise in trade and afficionado circles, does Bose advertise there? I do not know, but suspect not. I suspect that most consumers who can name 10 or more loudspeaker manufacturers do not own Bose. I suspect that consumers who can name several driver manufacturers or describe the function of a crossover hardly ever own Bose. I suspect the more knowlegdeable the consumer, the less likely he owns Bose.

Just some thoughts...

FWIW, my parents have a Bose system. I think it is an abomination.

jocko

They still beat the heck out of the one 3 or 4 inch mono speaker that TV's used to have. Or even the stereo speakers newer sets have. Surround sound was a great idea. It just wasn't theirs. And many are better at it.

[rockecat]

You are exactly right, Bose has done a superb job of marketing thier product.
Let me give you example of how effective good marketing is. The best I have seen lately is Old Navy very new company that spends a ton on advertising and produces the product in China, this is a trend that started around ten years ago of selling and mass marketing a not so great product through huge advertising budgets. This has been around longer but in the last ten years it has become more the norm. You can sell just about anything if marketed correctly. I just sold my motorcycle dealership and retired I have seen many marketing changes in the last twenty odd years, you have to be able to adjust as the market changes if you do not you will fail.I also own a company that produces motorcycle suspension components and we are fighting hard for our share of the pie and advertising is the key.Our world has become much smaller via the net and products are scutinized on a much larger scale now. What this means is you will be seing a lot of shifting in the market there will be those who learn how to play the new game and those unwilling to change.
Even the mighty Wal-mart is will have to Keep a lookout for the changes.

[GMichael]

Congrats on the successful businesses.
Wal-Mart has a good website and is advertising a lot. So they are at least on the right track. Only time will tell if it pays off. And the market can change in the blink of an eye.

[rockecat]

Congrats on the successful businesses.
Wal-Mart has a good website and is advertising a lot. So they are at least on the right track. Only time will tell if it pays off. And the market can change in the blink of an eye.

Thanks, we just moved to a fairly small town closer to relatives yet far enough to have some breathing room. I am not quite old enough or wealthy enough to retire so going to find something to do. my wife and I grew up working for a large record distributor and we have always had a passion for music. The new house allowed us to drag out the old HI-FI
and we have not turned on the TV in two weeks she thinks I should open a small stereo store specializing in used equipment , I think she just wants me out of the house.
Here is the link to my website if you would like to check it out.
http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/

Yes that is me at the controls :D

[hermanv]

It has to do with deceit.

In a current Bose TV ad for their 3 speaker surround system, they show animated diagrams about 5.1 surround, complain about the problems running cables everywhere and then the annoucer says (paraphrased) "This Bose 3 speaker system is just awsome, when compared to ordinary TV sound it will blow you away" Right no deceit, except the whole commercial is about comparing 3 channels to 5 and then the catch line is about comparing 3 channels to the 2 wimpy speakers that come in your home TV set. It intentionally leaves the impression that the spokesman claimed that the Bose system was better than the 5 channel systems being described earlier in the ad..

We have a Bose "factory outlet" store near us. They have a demo, you are not allowed to leave before the end! They have these big Ol' speakers on the wall and during the music portion of the demo they lift the empty frame off to show you the little tiny Bose speakers cubes hidden inside. My wife wispers to me "Oh thank god, I wondered how they got those giant speakers to sound that awful , now I understand, they are actually 3" tinny speakers and sound exactly like they should." The deceit is that the bass is comming from the bass module that is not in plain view, they are trying to show how much bass a little tiny 3" cube can make disguised as a large speaker when in fact bass is coming from a hidden Bose subwoofer module. Later in the demo they drag this module out to play some games with a rubber ball plugging the port but never go back and link the big sound and the visual sleight of hand with the big housings holding the small speakers.

I've seen inside the "Wave" radio. There is a little 3" or 4" driver that has a 1" tuned port that's about 2 or 3 feet long. Nothing wrong except that will boost only one bass frequency so the response of the driver is a dual humped curve, one hump at proabbly 50 Hz then a big empty spot and then the actual driver resonance at 160Hz, phony bass, one note bass but at least a lot of it. In the TV ads they stretch this radio so it looks just like a big 3 way system (see through grills show 3 progressively larger drivers). The 3 way system has a chance of seamless coverage top to bottom, the Bose does not.

I own an expensive car with a Bose "high end" sound system, the main speakers are 3" diameter. There is no "wizzer" cone, there are no tweeters. There is a sub-woofer but again the main speakers can't go low enough to seamlessly integrate with the sub woofer (mono). It always sounded awful. Now one speaker voice coil rubs, Bose wants $350 for the driver assembly (the 3" paper cone driver mounted in a plastic box). The driver voice coil is 1 Ohm so they can get volume with only a 12V supply. There are no substitute drivers from other manufacturers. I wouldn't so much mind the $350 if the damn system sounded good but it doesn't.

Everytime I look at technical details of a Bose system I find they are manipulating or fooling our senses, other manufacturers do at least try for flat reponse (with admitedly different degrees of success). So you ask, if the effect succesfully fools you is it really deceit, yes, because for some music, some recordings the con will fail.

[thekid]

Evil,
I don't doubt you for one second. When I'm on vacation, sometimes I'll go into a Bose store for giggles. The vast majority of people that frequent these stores are posers. You know, the kind of people that are more into the label than anything else. It doesn't surprise me that they display this kind of arrogant, chip-on-the-shoulder attitude.

The problem is you represent the reasoned voice of reality, and trust me, reality is the last thing these type of people want to deal with. Try changing your sales pitch and play to their insecurities and need for recognition. Support how great Bose is, and then level shift them by noting that the brand doesn't hold as much cache with those in the know. By installing a system consisting of [insert your brands here], they will not only have a superior system, but they will the respect of the elite.

My dad once told me an absolute truism regarding how to spot the wealthy from the posers: Those that don't have it put the big bills on the outside (of a billfold), those that do put the big bills on the inside.



Note to Bose owners:
I am not calling you all posers. I am specifically talking about the type of people Evil Betty describes. If you're on this site, clearly you're not the mindless sheep I am talking about.

You may now return to our regularly scheduled program :).


Thanks Topspeed for culling people like me from the herd....

It really is a little amusing to see the passion that a Bose thread brings to A/V forums.
If there are any anthropologists out there I think the Bose bashers are trying to make their case that Bose owners are a separate species! ( I can hear the matches being lit as I type this..) I have been on several of these forums and I am pretty convinced that most of the behavior attributed to Bose owners are really just trolls tossing gasoline.Based on some of the discussions on this forum a lot of attributes people assign only to Bose owners could be attributed to owners of other speakers who are trying to defend their audio choices. This is just human nature

But I bought my lottery tickets for the big money tonight and I'm sure I will be back on here tommorrow asking you all to recommend the best system a 100k can buy..... :)

Peace

[Woochifer]

Thanks Topspeed for culling people like me from the herd....

It really is a little amusing to see the passion that a Bose thread brings to A/V forums.
If there are any anthropologists out there I think the Bose bashers are trying to make their case that Bose owners are a separate species! ( I can hear the matches being lit as I type this..) I have been on several of these forums and I am pretty convinced that most of the behavior attributed to Bose owners are really just trolls tossing gasoline.Based on some of the discussions on this forum a lot of attributes people assign only to Bose owners could be attributed to owners of other speakers who are trying to defend their audio choices. This is just human nature

But I bought my lottery tickets for the big money tonight and I'm sure I will be back on here tommorrow asking you all to recommend the best system a 100k can buy..... :)

Peace

I'll tell you this much, people who buy Bose are definitely coming into the stores with preconceived ideas as to what Bose represents. A friend of mine worked at a store that for years did not carry Bose, and the sales reps had to spend most of their time explaining why a receiver-based system with an Energy Encore or Gallo Acoustics speaker package could sound so much better than a Bose Acoustimass-based system. And even if a customer admitted that the store's offerings seemed to sound better than the Bose system and cost less, a lot of them would still go on about how much more advanced they thought Bose's technology was and wind up buying Bose!

One store in my area resorted to buying their own Bose Acoustimass system so that they could demonstrate how much better the sound quality could be in that price range with alternatives from other companies.

The store where my friend worked eventually picked up the Bose line, and he said that it made for some quick and easy sales, and very high commissions (the highest margins outside of Monster Cable). He would ask a customer if they wanted to audition other products in the same price range, and a lot of them would just whip out their credit card and tell him they wanted to buy Bose no matter what. No time in the demo room comparing different speakers, no comparison shopping at different stores, hardly any time at all -- a salesman's job was never easier!

Bose has so inundated the media with advertising that they have a built in advantage with brand recognition. A lot of the grumblings about Bose will typically come from experienced listeners and hobbyists. That's not the market that Bose appeals to, and it shows with how they emphasize making their products easy to use, design friendly, and usable out of the box. Only after owning one of their products for a while do the deficiencies with limited upgrade paths, performance, and/or upgradability come out.

[ryk]

B.O.S.E.
"Better Off with Something Else" :p

[thekid]

I'll tell you this much, people who buy Bose are definitely coming into the stores with preconceived ideas as to what Bose represents. A friend of mine worked at a store that for years did not carry Bose, and the sales reps had to spend most of their time explaining why a receiver-based system with an Energy Encore or Gallo Acoustics speaker package could sound so much better than a Bose Acoustimass-based system. And even if a customer admitted that the store's offerings seemed to sound better than the Bose system and cost less, a lot of them would still go on about how much more advanced they thought Bose's technology was and wind up buying Bose!

One store in my area resorted to buying their own Bose Acoustimass system so that they could demonstrate how much better the sound quality could be in that price range with alternatives from other companies.

The store where my friend worked eventually picked up the Bose line, and he said that it made for some quick and easy sales, and very high commissions (the highest margins outside of Monster Cable). He would ask a customer if they wanted to audition other products in the same price range, and a lot of them would just whip out their credit card and tell him they wanted to buy Bose no matter what. No time in the demo room comparing different speakers, no comparison shopping at different stores, hardly any time at all -- a salesman's job was never easier!

Bose has so inundated the media with advertising that they have a built in advantage with brand recognition. A lot of the grumblings about Bose will typically come from experienced listeners and hobbyists. That's not the market that Bose appeals to, and it shows with how they emphasize making their products easy to use, design friendly, and usable out of the box. Only after owning one of their products for a while do the deficiencies with limited upgrade paths, performance, and/or upgradability come out.

Wooch-
I agree with your post. IMO I think that most of the responses to Bose threads (the obvious trolls aside) just go beyond the deserved criticisms of Bose.Most Bose threads usually deteriorate real fast into cute catch phrases like the one below your post, unsubstantiated "internet myths" about Bose itself or attacks on the intelligence/genetic make up of the person posing the question or Bose owners. I think that those types of responses are counterproductive and just benneath most of the members here whose true passion and knowledge of audio I have really come to appreciate.

For those Bose people you encounter in the world- educate those with an open mind and ignore those with a close mind. Close minded people have their own set of problems and we should not infer that Bose is the cause of the problem. As you said Bose has a talent for marketing their product which if we are honest about it is at a level that most companies (speaker or not) out in the marketplace is trying to achieve. You have to wonder if any one of the speaker makers that are highly regarded by members here was able to achieve the mass market appeal of Bose would we start seeing some of the same criticisms-JAT

By the way I checked my lottery numbers and won't be asking for any high-end equipment advice today..... :)

Peace

[rockecat]

You have to wonder if any one of the speaker makers that are highly regarded by members here was able to achieve the mass market appeal of Bose would we start seeing some of the same criticisms-JAT

Now that is a great observation, I would say there would be a good chance of it.
Does anybody remember when Wal-Mart really started getting big and how great we thought it was, and now we tell each other how we hate to go.Bose may not be the best product on the market, but it sure has made a positive impact on the market by
putting out a product much better than what is standard equipment on your TV and showing the average consumer a whole new perspective in audio performance, many of these consumers will eventually move on or up to even better equipment which serves all of us well.

[vxaudio]

Better off with something else?? Another simple minded comment. Why some "know it all" members here say things like that is beyond me. It really turns off alot of people to forums where 90% of the info is greatly helpful. Better off with what? There are plenty of speakers that Bose blows away. Instead of helpful comments on who someone would be better off with (in their 1 opinion also), this user just made a stupid, non-helpful comment. When is it gonna stop?

[bfalls]

You started this thread knowing full well what to expect. I believe these comments do provide a service by providing info the the uninitiated. They in turn will research for themselves. There may be a few speakers Bose best, but they're being sold from the rear of a white van as "overstock". Have you done your research, gone to links provided by members of this forum? There are none more blind than those who refuse to see.

[thekid]

Better off with something else?? Another simple minded comment. Why some "know it all" members here say things like that is beyond me. It really turns off alot of people to forums where 90% of the info is greatly helpful. Better off with what? There are plenty of speakers that Bose blows away. Instead of helpful comments on who someone would be better off with (in their 1 opinion also), this user just made a stupid, non-helpful comment. When is it gonna stop?


VX you just have to learn to ignore the comments of those who bring nothing to the table but gasoline and simple minded catch phrases. As you have seen on this post and elsewhere on this forum there are those who honestly do try to assist with their knowledge and experience (regardless of the manufacturer) without making synical/critical comments about the owner or their equipment. This forum can be a useful tool as you explore the A/V world.

Separate the wheat from the chaffe as they say.
Keep an open mind and enjoy your system.

Peace

[vxaudio]

i agree. thanks to everyone that takes the time to help.

[jocko_nc]

I just hope that everyone interested in a Bose system would open their minds and ears, and take a good hard listen. Unlearn what they think they know, and compare all that is out there. Then, each can have what he likes. To make such a big purchase on name recognition (as in recognized by the largely uninformed) is nuts. Bose's massive advertising campaign has created this situation. They make it easy to blow a lot of money on their products. Their products are easy in themselves. However, how often is the easy path the "best" path?

I honestly think that most people who do the above will end up with a better product for the money.

jocko

[caniac]

To the original poster: Have you ever taken apart a Bose speaker?

Try it. You will be stunned. The materials used are on-par with the KLH/RCA speakers found at Radio Shack. Gotta love those paper cone tweeters....

[HAVIC]

I just hope that everyone interested in a Bose system would open their minds and ears, and take a good hard listen. Unlearn what they think they know, and compare all that is out there. Then, each can have what he likes. To make such a big purchase on name recognition (as in recognized by the largely uninformed) is nuts. Bose's massive advertising campaign has created this situation. They make it easy to blow a lot of money on their products. Their products are easy in themselves. However, how often is the easy path the "best" path?

I honestly think that most people who do the above will end up with a better product for the money.

jocko

While I agree 100% with what you said, I feel it extends beyond just sound equipment. People need to make up their own minds and compare and review, especially before spend $2000 on anything.
Unfortunately I see this problem all the time being in the technology field. I absolute hate it when I hear ... No one every gets fired for buying Microsoft or Cisco, etc. It drives me nuts, because other companies make better products.

People need to stop being sheep and walk their own path

Greg

[jocko_nc]

Amen, HAVIC. To run further with your point...

This is an audio / video website dedicated to technology and equipment. However, consider the content we may (or may not) play on our beloved toys. Consider popular music and video. Talk about sub-mediocre products sustained by mass advertising and image. Talk about overpriced and underperformance. Talk about a wholly-created market of fraud. IMO, 95+% of popular music and its industry is a sick joke. Perhaps this is something we can bash harder than Bose?

jocko

[GMichael]

Everybody! Get out your clubs and torches! Let's go bash & burn everything! Women and children first! BWAHAHAHAHAHA............

Oops, sorry. I got cought up in the moment.

I'm better now.
Have you seen my brother George?

[accastil]

Bose did a very good job in marketing their products, their brand. it has become a household name and in fact, a mindset has been put into place for so many fanatics...but hey, they deserve it..they make good speakers...sorry for them, a lot of other brands make better speakers.

[gorilla196635]

Okay so maybe it is the consumers I dislike more than the speaker. I just know there is much better out there especially in the full size range.

Oh those label shoppers....

[SkiTaos]

I think Bose is cheap and a waist of money! I have heard systems sound way better than Bose. However, there are hundreds of different speaker brands. Why? Because there are so many different tastes in sound. Some people think Bose sounds great. Others like me think they sound weak and boring.

If you are a Bose supporter. Please go to a store that has great hi end gear (NOT CIRCUIT CITY!!! THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE, PLUS THEY AREN'T HIGH END.)

Listen to some B&W 800 series speakers!!

Some other great brands are:

Krell
Sunfire
Kimber Kable
Purist Audio Design
Klipsch

This stuff can be pricy but they sound awesome!!! Just give them a try!

Mike

[Bryan]

Why do people on forums bash Bose? Excellent question. Primarily this is due to either an Acoustimass system, Wave radio, or 3-2-1 system. Another major issue is Bose lack of giving out speaker and sub specifications. If you are happy with your system that is excellent. Mine, OTOH, consists of Onix Rocket speakers and sub, a Yamaha receiver, and Panasonic DVD player and I am very happy with it. Odds are it will change in time but such is the nature of this expensive hobby.

[gixxerific]

I'm not even going to read all the replies. I see it all before. Bose SUCKS. Yes I have owned bose home products and my Z-28 came with Bose. They use inferior material and shady manufacturing and marketing practices. Muff said the SUCK and they will always SUCK. Maybe if the lowered the pricews and played down all the "We are SUPER" hype than I might respect them. But if you sell **** than don't try to pass it off as gold. :mad:

[gixxerific]

To the original poster: Have you ever taken apart a Bose speaker?

Try it. You will be stunned. The materials used are on-par with the KLH/RCA speakers found at Radio Shack. Gotta love those paper cone tweeters....


Okay so I read a few post, Caniac did you say paper cones. The crap they use isn't worthy of being called paper. (Not flaming you by the way :D )

[spacedeckman]

Better off with something else?? Another simple minded comment. Why some "know it all" members here say things like that is beyond me. It really turns off alot of people to forums where 90% of the info is greatly helpful. Better off with what? There are plenty of speakers that Bose blows away. Instead of helpful comments on who someone would be better off with (in their 1 opinion also), this user just made a stupid, non-helpful comment. When is it gonna stop?

You are getting too wound up about this. If you go into a store, a real store where you can hear things, not like Best Buy or other big box place where you have to listen above the din of daily activities, and can listen to a few different speakers on the same system to get a real feel for what each has going for it, putting away your internal prejudices (the hard part), and just listening...you can learn a lot. Although this sounds easy, it really isn't. Bose isn't typically sold outside of big box and appliance type stores. Bose will actually pay a "slotting fee" to be placed away from other speakers to limit comparisons in a store.

Nicer stores tend not to carry Bose products since their performance relative to price isn't adequate for their customer base. Bose is marketed to, and sold to NON-AUDIO people. They are a friendly, smiling face and a recognized name in a sea of "unknowns" to Jim and Jane Doe. Drop names like Paradigm, Energy, Mirage, B&W, Dynaudio, etc, and you will get a blank look from 95% of the rest of the world. Mention Bose, and you have 95% name recognition. Most people buy audio equipment every 10-15 years or more. They are unaware of the audio marketplace, and often don't even know where to begin researching. Most of their friends are no help whatsoever. Kind of like asking your mechanic neighbor about brain surgery, or a brain surgeon about a problem with your car. Fish out of water.

You are more advanced than many, trying to find information here. You will find a lot of opinions, and interspersed with those opinions some real information. Bose is a mixed bag. The speakers are "lifestyle" oriented, not performance oriented, so they just don't work for many in a place like this. However, they don't try to sell them to me or a lot of other guys here. I'm most certainly not their market, and they don't care to try to sell me speakers, they want the other 95%, the "great unwashed", who will buy something that outperforms their TV and will be pleased as punch about it. They have "name brand" speakers, so they gain the acceptance of their friends (that plays into it a lot, as someone mentioned, Bose customers tend to be label concious).

Bose is often "the first step on the Underground Railroad" to audio enlightenment. Because of Bose, there is an incredible array of sub-sat speaker systems out there. Without the Bose product, it wouldn't be there. Bose has made many audio budgets bigger, even if they didn't buy Bose products. However, Bose fanatics are some of the most insufferable people you will ever encounter. They have a couple of things in common. They have no exposure to other audio products, and they are often buying their first "real" system. Kind of like getting advice from people here. You never know if they are raving about a system they own, without having much experience with other things.

Bose may be the best choice for you right now, they may be in the long term, for YOU. Then again, if they get you to really start to listen to music, one day you will walk through a store and say "Holy Crap!!!, what the H-E-double toothpicks is that", hearing music in a way you had never thought possible. That happened early in my lifetime, for some folks it is later.

BTW, no offense, but the absolute best Bose acronym I've ever heard came from a Bose Rep many years back. Buy Other Speakers Eventually.

Space

[trem0lo]

I remember working summers at Best Buy when I was in college. Whenever I sold audio equipment I nicely steered customers away from the cheapo brands and suggested Yamaha, Klipsch, etc... basically the best brands BB carries. I would then give them a simple tutorial on how speakers are supposed to sound and carefully explain why the Bose lifestyle system isn't worth $3000. I would lead them to the listening room and demonstrate. The bass module sounds like poo and it's boomy so I usually started there. I said, "if you have 3 grand to drop on a HT system, you need to visit The Audio Room on the other side of town. Systems there will blow your mind. That's where guys with $3000 budgets shop." It usually worked, but yeah, some people just walk in and say "I want Bose now. Go get it stockboy." You can't do much there.

[Florian]

If people want BOSE they should buy BOSE. To me personally listening to a box speaker is very close to listening to a BOSE speaker. Now dont be offended you all, but for me personally 99% of the boxes i heard sound like complete ****. You can chase me all across town with a box that comes with 4 different drivers, chassy volumes, resonances and that just won some review. Argh!

BOSE is overprized **** regardless of reviews (Martin DeWulf gave the acoustamass a good review) that is the guy that gets quoted by some big names on Paradigm reviews etc.. which says it all right there. The cubes are small, cute and easy as hell to connect and to run. For a rich family or someone who wants a easy to use system that looks good they are exellent. But please dont talk about sonics. This is the same sin like that idiotic post of the 901 to Maggie switch :(

Cheers

Flo

[armyscout42]

I am here to brag about my used and new vintage system that will BLOW AWAY ANY BOSE BY STAR TREK LIGHT YEARS!
receiver: pioneer vsx 912 linked to vsx 1014....each 7.1 preouts is amplified with CARVER
TFM 35, 500x, m-400t, 1.5t(pair), dbx 4 ch/amp, pyramid 4 ch/amp, audiosource and acousonic monoblocks amps. Carver c-4000t, c-5, c-16 preamps. Jvc/kenwood 7 disc and 5 disc dvd player with faroudja processor. Denon DP-57L/ DP-62L TURNTABLES, sony/technics dual cassette decks. Teac x2000r open reel tape deck.
Dbx 400x route selector, 3bx series 3 w/impact restoration expander, 3bx dbx ds, 1bx ds range controllers, RG-1 dynamic processor, 3 acoustic research passive TDS-202 enhancer. SRSLABS pro 220 spatial enhancer, peavey kosmos w/subharmonic synthesizer, BBE 362 sw sonic maximizer, behringer spatial enhancer, APHEX aurel exciter w/big bottom, alesis compressor, pyramid equalizer, adc ss415 equalizer, ATI single 31 band equalizer, carver H-9AV sonic holography.
INFOCUS entry level projector and da-lite 72x96" white matte screen
accessories: monster, rca and acoustic research cables, wires and banana plugs.
3 dakiom feedback stabilizers HR-103, R-103S
subwoofer: DCM1515 dual 15 inch woofer and KLH 12 " subwoofer, acoustat SPW-1L
4, 8" passive woofers.
center: audio pro .4, yamaha 444es, rca linaeum, klipsch sc-.5, wharfedale zaldek, srslabs klayman signature
rear: optimus lineaum lx-5/lx-77, klipsch ss-3, wharfedale dipole, ohm walsh 2, magnepan mglrs-1
FRONT: ACOUSTAT SPECTRA 33, EMINENT TECHNOLOGY LFT-8A, OHM walsh 2x0, magnepan .05,

do i really have room for these, well, it's an experiment! the sound is out of this world...
my dakiom stabilizers keeps the system clean from distortion like water filter is to a faucet. what you got here are a combination of electrostats, planars, flat panel drivers, walsh drivers, linaeum drivers and horns not just dynamic drivers and dome tweeters and midrange...coupled with tons of sound processors.....HEARING IS BELIEVING!
How can you possibly compare this to any BOSE???
all under 10k considered its all used and vintage 80's, 90's and 2004....where is my bose 901's? it's thrashed and in storage with thrashed drivers.

[IsmaVA]

THE questions that still remains from my original post is WHY Direct speakers are preferred over BOSE's direct and reflecting method???

With today's mutichannel systems positioning si very very important. If you have a direct/reflect speaker you are basically providing a diffuse source, which might work for surround speakers, but not for main speakers.