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GMichael
10-17-2005, 05:10 AM
N. Abstentia,

I have a few questions about your wonderful new HT room.

1) What kind of paint did you use for the screen?
2) Why did you choose a projector over LCD, plasma, etc...?
3) Is the picture just as good?
4) Will it work for normal TV?
5) What cables did you have to run to the ceiling?
6) How far do you have it from the screen?
7a&b) Do you know how long the lamps last & cost to replace?

Sorry for all the questions.

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 09:25 AM
SUP! I appreciate the questions actually :)

1) I used flat grey. Seriously. The kind of paint you can get anywhere. I got mine at Lowes, it's just a light grey. The results are spectacular.

2) I've always wanted a projector, and LCD/Plasma was never really an option because of price. I couldn't justify spending $6000 for a 60" plasma when I could get over 120" with a projector for $1200...and that's including the screen.

3) I think 'just as good' is subjective. I'm sure LCD/Plasma would be brighter and crisper, but it's also much smaller and costs 5 times as much. For a living room LCD/Plasma might be a good choice (especially if you have a lot of light in the room) but for a theater room a projector is the way to go.

4) Yep, works perfectly! Watching Nascar and football in HD on a 125" screen is quite an experience. Of course it works great for non-HD stuff also.

5) I ran a component, s-video, and DVI cable. Right now just using component.

6) It's 18 feet from the screen.

7) I think the lamps are good for 3000 hours and are around $250 to replace. It probably varies depending on the projector. 3000 hours is close to having the projector on for 8 hours a day every day for an entire year, so bulbs should last close to 2 years for me.

Let me know if there are more questions or you need specific pictures of something!

L.J.
10-17-2005, 10:00 AM
Did you use any sound absorbing matl for the walls or in the room?

If so, what matl and how much did it cost?

GMichael
10-17-2005, 10:11 AM
Cool, thanks.

So you ran the coax from the cable company to your HT sound system and then the S-video and DVI to the projector? Um what's a DVI cable? Right now I use component video and an optical sound cable to the TV.

Building a house and I'd like to have the cables run before the walls are finished. At this point they haven't even cleared the lot of trees yet. Still lots of time for me to think up more questions. Maybe the next one I ask should be, did I leave anything out that I should be asking?

I really like the idea of a projector. out of the way with a big (huge) screen.

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 11:55 AM
Did you use any sound absorbing matl for the walls or in the room?

If so, what matl and how much did it cost?

No sound treatments yet, but I'll probaby get a few of those acoustic tiles eventually just to break up the walls.

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 12:04 PM
Cool, thanks.

So you ran the coax from the cable company to your HT sound system and then the S-video and DVI to the projector? Um what's a DVI cable? Right now I use component video and an optical sound cable to the TV.



Yeah kind of but I have DirecTV instead of cable. It goes to the Tivo receiver which has the optical audio output and of course the video outputs. All the components to go the A/V receiver then the video cable goes from the receiver to the projector.

DVI is digital video interface which is nice because unlike component, it does not convert the digital video to analog. However I don't have anything with a DVI output! I just ran the cable for future use since the projector has a DVI input. I also thought about running HDMI but I figured by the time I replace this projector, HDMI would be obsolete anyway. It'll be time to drop another cable regardless.

Best advice I can give on cables is to install anything you think you might possibly need.

GMichael
10-17-2005, 12:21 PM
Thanks,
Did your Optoma H31 DLP show up yet?

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 04:55 PM
Oh yeah, I've had the projector for a couple of months now. I had it set up in my storage shed while testing screen paints :)

I update my in-progress website (see below) whenever there's a major development..there's pictures of the screen, screen shots, and the cables which you asked about.

vxaudio
10-17-2005, 06:35 PM
N. i was looking at the projector you have and the resolution is 480p. Did you not go to a higher resolution b/c of price or b/c you were happy with the pic quality? i am curoius b/c im looking into projectors, but this resolution seems kinda low compared to what i'm used to. i have a 55' widescreen sony lcd projector that has a resolution of around 1300x700i and i use a 1080i upconverting dvd player. of course my tv costs me triple what you paid and is < half the size i was just wondering your subjective thoughts on what you have and if you have compared it to higher resolution projector pictures? thanks

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 08:18 PM
Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not. I demo'ed the H31 at a shop while on a beach trip (no shops local at all) and of all the places I went it was the best looking projector I saw for under $5000. I was kinda bummed when he told me it was $2100, but was very happy when I got back home and started to do research and found that it was $1100 online. So price was really the major concern, but on the same token I personally saw no reason to spend 3 times as much on a higher resolution projector. They just didn't look any better. I've looked at a lot of projectors over the last year and honestly just never saw anything that looked any better than the H31, plus the shops had actual screens and not just paint.

Just out of curiosity, what's the advantage of a 1080i projector? What is the native resolution of a DVD?

vxaudio
10-17-2005, 08:46 PM
i belive that the native res. of current dvd's is 480p. however, when you buy an upconverting dvd player, it can convert it up to 780i for component and 1080i with hdmi (which is what i use) i also believe that the new hd dvd's will be 1080i native and dolbydigital.com says their soundtracks will be 100% lossless which is pretty exciting news. so i guess the advantage of a 1080i projector only comes with an upconverting dvd or in the future hd dvd or hd tv currently. . i also looked at some graphs and at 1080, progressive scan and interlaced merge, therefore 1080i will be used, b/c p has no advantage. i need to research some more to make certain, but i believe this info is pretty accurate but for the next few years, a 480p projector looks like a good choice.

N. Abstentia
10-17-2005, 08:53 PM
Yeah like I said I'm no expert by any means, but everything I've read says that 480p is better than anything i...or interlaced.

robert393
10-18-2005, 05:42 AM
Yeah like I said I'm no expert by any means, but everything I've read says that 480p is better than anything i...or interlaced.

Very nice setup, congratulations! If you are anything like me you will have many hours of pure enjoyment from you HT! But, if you have not experienced true 1080i, you will be blown away. 480p is not even close to the PQ 1080i (or 720p!) presents. I don't know where you read "that 480p is better than anything i...", but don't believe it!

And their is LOTS of HD tv out their. With Dish network (which now owns VOOM) I get a total of 23 HD channels!

Anyway, enjoy your setup. It looks awesome!
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-18-2005, 07:10 AM
Well I think the big thing is that even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p or 720p is preferred over 1080i. Plus if a DVD it natively 480p, is there any advantage to upconversion? Can you add things that aren't there to start with?

L.J.
10-18-2005, 08:39 AM
When I first got my 2910, I sat and watched Finding Nemo in both 480p and 1080i over and over. My simple eyes could not see a difference. 480p is gonna give you a flawless picture. With your DVI you could take advantage of a digital connection, but you would have to drop money on a new DVD player. I think in the end, a 480p over component is enough to be happy with.

robert393
10-18-2005, 12:51 PM
"Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not."

OK........

"Well I think the big thing is that even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p is preferred over 1080i."

Oh yeah....right, HD REALLY SUCKS.....LOL!! You got to be kidding! Well actually, I will take note of your admission above.

Seriously, you may want to stop while you are ahead. Surely you are not going to continue with the argument that 480p is superior to 1080i.

Enjoy the 854x480 resolution of the H31. It gets really great reviews for projectors at it's level. http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_h31.htm

N. Abstentia
10-18-2005, 05:54 PM
Well if you'll read you'll see I never actually said '480p is superior to 1080i' because if you'll also notice I said I'm by no means an expert on the matter.

All I know is this..after demoing 1080i and 420p I preferred 480p because 1080i still suffers from interlacing. I couldn't justify the price difference to go with 1080i, and I'm obviously not alone. I know what I saw. I'm glad to see that others see the same things as me.

I guess I just don't understand scaling...how can something that has only 480 scan lines be improved by adding something that wasn't there to start with? Does it just make up stuff to put in those extra scan lines?

Smokey
10-19-2005, 03:52 AM
All I know is this..after demoing 1080i and 420p I preferred 480p because 1080i still suffers from interlacing. I couldn't justify the price difference to go with 1080i, and I'm obviously not alone. I know what I saw. I'm glad to see that others see the same things as me.

I guess I just don't understand scaling...how can something that has only 480 scan lines be improved by adding something that wasn't there to start with? Does it just make up stuff to put in those extra scan lines?

I think there might be some mixed up issues here. You right in that regard that upscaling 480i to 1080i (by the way, native DVD is 480i) will not yield any improvements. One can not have something that is not there to begin with. So if source is DVD player, a HD projector does not nessacary yield a better picture in HD mode Vs 480p mode.

But if source is HD (1080i or 720p), then there is no question that HD-ready projector’s picture quality will be better than a projector that is only 480p capable. Although it is true that 1080i is interlaced, but compare with 480i or 480p, it got twice as much resolution vertically, and horizontally. So HD picture is 4 times better :)

edtyct
10-19-2005, 06:23 AM
I'm arriving late to this party; forgive me if I'm missing the point. The 1080i format, if original to the source, is flat-out better than 480p, based purely on resolution (scan lines or pixel counts). No controversy exists on this matter. Any controversy about the relative quality of interlaced vs. progressive revolved around which of the two first HD formats, 1080i or 720p, was better at showing motion. Many experts felt that 720p was more coherent in that respect--thus ESPN's use of 720p. Other broadcasters preferred it as well. But most people would be hardpressed to notice a difference.

DVD as we know is an interlaced format--480i, which nearly every DVD player under the sun nowadays can convert to progressive, with 3:2 pulldown for films and video deinterlacing, for a suitable digital display. Few displays can do as good a job at deinterlacing as DVD players can, but most external scalers do a better job than either DVD players or displays. Deinterlacing, especially video deinterlacing, is an extraordinarily complicated affair, requiring a buffer for the source data to undergo analysis for interpolation to one degree or another. This is how Faroudja made its name, as did Silicon Optix, DVDO, and others. Scaling these days is a fact of life, and though, as Smokey says, it can't create something out of nothing, it can work wonders creating something out of something. Under normal circumstances, however, a 480 panel is at an advantage for showing current DVDs, since scaling them to a higher native resolution usually softens the picture and/or adds artifacts that aren't in the original. But the eye can be fooled, and upconverting 480 inside a DVD player for digital transmission to a microdisplay has been shown at times to result in sharper resolution on test screens than unprocessed 480i or p. That's basically how the cheap little Vizio DVD player with its pioneering DVI connection made its name.

One more thing: 1080i often undergoes no deinterlacing, because of its already high resolution. The new upconverting 1080p displays, however, have changed that trend, but certain higher-end scalers also can process 1080i to p for suitable displays.

Ed

robert393
10-19-2005, 07:14 AM
Well I think the big thing is that even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p or 720p is preferred over 1080i. Plus if a DVD it natively 480p, is there any advantage to upconversion? Can you add things that aren't there to start with?

Couple quick things here:
1080i doesn't "suffer from interlacing". It is as good a picture quality as avalable today (ok....there is a very valid argument for 720p if fast motion is involved ie, sports).

Your statement above "which is why 480p is preferred over 1080i" is utter nonsense. Preferred by whom......experts?

FYI, DVD is NOT native 480p, but 480i and you are SCALING to 480p.

Your statement of "Can you add things that aren't there to start with?" can be best answered by you since DVD is 480i and you are using processing methods to get it to 480p. Your SCALER is "adding things that aren't there to start with"....how do you think it looks?

Hope this helps clear things up a bit for you..........
Robert

edtyct
10-19-2005, 09:13 AM
The knee-jerk response that a scaler/deinterlacer can't add anything to 480 that isn't already there in the first place shouldn't obscure the fact that a good signal processor has to do a lot of creative work to succeed. The more complete, and subtle, the snapshot of the digital data that it uses to construct its interpolations, the smoother the picture. To state simply that nothing new can be added to an original source that wasn't there in the first place shortchanges the ingeniousness of signal processing. If it were true, all signal processors would be created equal; they aren't. In the case of 3:2 pulldown for films on DVD, since the deinterlacer simply repeats fields to produce the appropriate frame rate, the degree of inventiveness is limited, though some 3:2 pulldown implementation is better than others. But video deinterlacing is more arduous, since none of the original fields were ever part of the same frame. To make a progressive stream out of them requires a good bit of design and analysis.

Ed

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm arriving late to this party; forgive me if I'm missing the point. The 1080i format, if original to the source, is flat-out better than 480p, based purely on resolution (scan lines or pixel counts). No controversy exists on this matter.

Ed

That sums it up good for me, and explains why every 1080i display I demoed was outperformed by 480p....the source was not 1080i. It was all done with DVD and not HD broadcasts.

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 09:49 AM
Couple quick things here:
1080i doesn't "suffer from interlacing". It is as good a picture quality as avalable today (ok....there is a very valid argument for 720p if fast motion is involved ie, sports).


Robert

You might want to read up:

1080i - 1080 interlaced; one of two formats designated as high-definition television in the ATSC DTV standard, with 1,080 vertical pixels by 1,920 horizontal pixels. The i stands for interlaced, as opposed to progressive scanning, used in the second HDTV standard, 720p. Contrary to myth, 1080i is not superior to 720p; 1080i has more scanning lines but also suffers the disadvantages of interlaced scanning.

robert393
10-19-2005, 10:15 AM
You might want to read up:

1080i - 1080 interlaced; one of two formats designated as high-definition television in the ATSC DTV standard, with 1,080 vertical pixels by 1,920 horizontal pixels. The i stands for interlaced, as opposed to progressive scanning, used in the second HDTV standard, 720p. Contrary to myth, 1080i is not superior to 720p; 1080i has more scanning lines but also suffers the disadvantages of interlaced scanning.

By your own admission you have not actually viewed HD, you may want to actually view HD before you keep digging your hole deeper...LOL!!

Look, you got a nice ($1000) projector (Native: 854x480 Pixels), ENJOY IT!!!!!!!!! But don't try to "sell" the idea that 480p is better than HD, just because you are not able to reproduce anything close to HD with your projector. Their are those of us that HAVE THE CAPABILITY to reproduce HD....and know the difference.........

Robert

GMichael
10-19-2005, 12:25 PM
One of the first things you notice when you begin to shop for a home theater projector is that they come in different resolutions. That becomes Mystery No. 1 for the typical buyer—which resolution is best? And it is an important question, because getting the right resolution, or more to the point—avoiding the wrong resolution—will help you get the best possible picture relative to the amount you pay for it.

Most people looking for home theater projectors want to go with the widescreen, 16:9 format that is the native format for HDTV. There are three popular 16:9 resolution formats at the moment. The first is 854x480, the second is 1024x576, and the third is 1280x720. Since these are all progressive scan displays, they are designated as 480p, 576p, and 720p resolutions, respectively.

First off, let's debunk the common notion that higher resolution is always the better deal. That is simply not the case. Most of the current 480p projectors produce outstanding results with both standard definition and HDTV signals. In terms of performance for the money, they clearly represent the best home theater value we've ever seen in the industry. Well, that is, if you live in the world of NTSC 480-line video. Assuming you do, your DVDs and standard television signals all have 480 lines of active video information, and the 854x480 projectors are designed to display them line-for-line without any vertical scaling. That produces the sharpest possible image from these sources.

Now, contrary to what you might imagine, stepping up in price to the next highest resolution, 1024x576, does not give you a sharper picture from DVD. Remember, you only have 480 lines of video information on that DVD. The projector cannot create additional picture information beyond that which it gets from the signal. So a 576p projector needs to take that 480 lines of information and redistribute it over 576 lines, a process which is called scaling. The best you can hope for is that it does a really good job at scaling the image, and if it does you won't lose much sharpness. But generally a picture scaled into a non-native format like this will appear a bit softer than it does when it is displayed in native 480-line format.

So why bother with a higher resolution? Well, the higher resolution does give you two benefits. First, since there are more pixels, there is typically somewhat reduced visible pixel structure. That means you can sit a bit closer to the screen without seeing the pixels. Second, there is the possibility of getting a slightly better HDTV picture. That is because the HD signal, which is either 1920x1080 or 1280x720, is being compressed into an array of 1024x576 rather than the lower resolution 854x480 array. Since the 576p model has more pixels, it has the potential to retain a bit more detail in the HDTV image.

However, these two advantages are minor. Pixelation on even the 480p DLP projectors is modest at best. Stepping up to 576p reduces visible pixelation somewhat, but it does not eliminate it. Meanwhile, the process of compressing an HDTV signal into a lower resolution array, no matter what it is, will always cause some loss of image detail. So whether it is compressed into 480 lines or 576 lines, the difference between the two is subtle at best.

The basic question then is this: Do you want to lay out more money to gain subtle improvements in pixelation and HDTV acuity, while compromising the sharpness of your DVD picture? Most people would think this is a dubious trade-off. Yet this is the value proposition being offered by the 1024x576 resolution projectors in the NTSC world.

On the other hand, everything changes if you live in a country where PAL or SECAM is the video standard. These systems deliver 576 lines of video per frame, rather than the 480 lines per frame of NTSC. So in this environment, the 1024x576 resolution projector is the ideal solution for DVD and standard definition video. Indeed, Texas Instruments dubbed their 1024x576 DLP chip the "Matterhorn" because of its unique applicability in the European market where PAL and SECAM are established standards.

Back on this side of the Atlantic however, the 1024x576 projector has become a solution in search of a problem. Except for those living in Brazil and Argentina, nobody in the Western hemisphere has a 576-line video source. So on a 576p projector everything must be scaled in a manner that represents an unattractive compromise for both standard definition and high definition sources.

The reality is that today's latest model 1280x720 resolution DLP projectors sell for under $3,000, and you can get the latest 1280x720 LCD projectors for under $2,000. The drop in prices of the 1280x720 models has left the 1024x576 projector aced out of the game in the western markets. There is no price point at which it would make sense to step up from 480p, but forego the incremental expense to get to 720p.

So in the NTSC world, if you want the best DVD picture quality for the money, the best 480p models deliver spectacular DVD quality and amazingly good HDTV as well, for a mere $1200 these days. If you want to allocate more in your budget for a projector to eliminate pixelation and get much sharper HDTV, there is simply no point in taking the interim step to 1024x576. The move to 1280x720 (or even higher), is the only move that makes sense.

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 12:42 PM
By your own admission you have not actually viewed HD, you may want to actually view HD before you keep digging your hole deeper...LOL!!

Robert

No need to get snippy just because I proved you wrong.

You might want to go back and read the posts before telling me I'm in a hole.

NO I did not watch a 1080i SOURCE through a 1080i display. I'm sure it's nice. I'm not disputing that. I'm sure it's better than 480, I'm not disputing that.

I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually). Then I watched that 480p source through the same amount of 1080i diplays. Guess what? I saw no difference, and certainly no reason to spend $3000 more for a 1080 projector.

Now if I HAD 1080 souce that was actually useable? It might have been different. But guess what..I don't...and don't plan to any time soon.

So FOR MY USE, 480p is the better option.

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 12:48 PM
First off, let's debunk the common notion that higher resolution is always the better deal. That is simply not the case. Most of the current 480p projectors produce outstanding results with both standard definition and HDTV signals.

your DVDs and standard television signals all have 480 lines of active video information, and the 854x480 projectors are designed to display them line-for-line without any vertical scaling. That produces the sharpest possible image from these sources.

Now, contrary to what you might imagine, stepping up in price to the next highest resolution, 1024x576, does not give you a sharper picture from DVD. Remember, you only have 480 lines of video information on that DVD. The projector cannot create additional picture information beyond that which it gets from the signal.

So in the NTSC world, if you want the best DVD picture quality for the money, the best 480p models deliver spectacular DVD quality and amazingly good HDTV as well, for a mere $1200 these days.

Thanks dude, that pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say all this time!
:cool:

GMichael
10-19-2005, 01:10 PM
Thanks dude, that pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say all this time!
:cool:

Thank you for turning me towards projectors. I had dismissed them as being out of my budget. When I saw your equipment list I decided to check pricing and saw it wasn't as much as I thought.

I am leaning towards the Sanyo PLV-Z3. The pricing has come down sinse the Z4 came out. I don't know when more HDTV channels will be available, or when HD-DVD/Blue-Ray will be ready but, what the heck. I think my ego wants it. And it's only 1500.00.

Kam
10-19-2005, 01:18 PM
Thank you for turning me towards projectors. I had dismissed them as being out of my budget. When I saw your equipment list I decided to check pricing and saw it wasn't as much as I thought.

I am leaning towards the Sanyo PLV-Z3. The pricing has come down sinse the Z4 came out. I don't know when more HDTV channels will be available, or when HD-DVD/Blue-Ray will be ready but, what the heck. I think my ego wants it. And it's only 1500.00.

hey gm, just so you know too from my own research, i had narrowed it down to the Z3, The Mitsubishi HC900U, HC100U, and Optoma H31.

GMichael
10-19-2005, 01:27 PM
hey gm, just so you know too from my own research, i had narrowed it down to the Z3, The Mitsubishi HC900U, HC100U, and Optoma H31.

Thanks, I have a lot of time to read reviews and decide. With any luck the Z4 will come down a little before it's time for me to buy. But right now the Z3 can be had for under 1500 and the Z4 is going for over 2100. I don't see it as 600 - 700 better.

robert393
10-19-2005, 01:28 PM
...a projector to eliminate pixelation and get much sharper HDTV, there is simply no point in taking the interim step to 1024x576. The move to 1280x720 (or even higher), is the only move that makes sense.

Very well said, and I agree. If DVD viewing is your concern, no need in "stepping-up" to a monitor/projector capable of HD, but with 23 HD channels to chose from (Dish Network & Voom & OTA, and 11 VOOM more channels becoming available in 1st Q-'06 ), I found that I very rarely (ok....almost NEVER!) watch DVD anymore!

HD is where it's at, no doubt about it, and with HD DVD hitting the market in the next couple months....hey, I'm not buying any more (480i) DVD's.

IMHO, anybody spending big-bucks on anything less than HD capable monitor/projection is buying obsolete equipment right from the "get-go".

Robert
btw, anybody notice the racks of $1.00 DVD's at Walmart now? Guess they are getting ready for the HD DVD's to hit the shelves!!

L.J.
10-19-2005, 01:38 PM
and with HD DVD hitting the market in the next couple months...

Are you sure about that?

Can you put up a link please, that states that?

vxaudio
10-19-2005, 01:41 PM
and you have the choice of 480p, 720i and 1080i. i have made comparisons and you CAN without a doubt tell a difference, much more detailed. just thought i would let you know my experience. They would not have gone to the trouble of making them if they didnt work.

GMichael
10-19-2005, 01:49 PM
Are you sure about that?

Can you put up a link please, that states that?

LJ, not to change the subject, but I love the little guy banging his head against the wall. It's killing me.
Our department has a little running joke about, well, let's just say, another department here. We feel that their brain power is so low that it's a miracle that they don't just bump into the walls when their walking. one typical question we get from them:

Them: I see this part number on our system.
Us: OK?
Them: I was wondering about it.
Us: OK?
Them: Well our system says that it's no longer available.
Us: OK?
Them: Does that mean that we can't get it?
Us: No, we just put that there to throw you off.
Them: Oh, so can you put the description back in so we can sell it?

robert393
10-19-2005, 01:55 PM
You proved me wrong? About what...lol!!! Dude, no disrespect intended. I have told you SEVERAL TIMES that you have a great projector, I just took issue with you regarding your obvious (and admitted) lack of education & experience with HD, as well as your misinformed knowledge (or lack of) with source material. Hey, everybody's been there, but most either just listen or they research before they start trying to tell about it, thus they avoid giving misinformation.


I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually). Then I watched that 480p source through the same amount of 1080i diplays.

What source material is 480p? I'm not aware of ANY (Commercially available) 480p source material. I would really like to know what 480p SOURCE material you viewed!


Now if I HAD 1080 souce that was actually useable? It might have been different. But guess what..I don't...and don't plan to any time soon.

If you have an "off-air" antenna, then you should have HD source material (ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS, PBS). Those are free. Of course Satelite 1080i material is abundant, but there is a monthly fee involved, but......hey, it's well worth the few bucks it cost ($5 month for VOOM!).


So FOR MY USE, 480p is the better option

That's awesome! As I stated MANY TIMES before, I'M HAPPY FOR YOU! You have what most videophiles can only dream of. That being a dedicated HT with 110" picture!
As I stated above, I have only taken issue with your obvious (and admitted) lack of education & experience with HD, as well as your misinformed knowledge (or lack of) with source material.

Hopefully much has been learned from this exchange of knowledge!
Robert

vxaudio
10-19-2005, 02:00 PM
and you have the choice of 480p, 720i and 1080i. i have made comparisons and you CAN without a doubt tell a difference, much more detailed. just thought i would let you know my experience. They would not have gone to the trouble of making them if they didnt work.

to add to this.. the upconverting dvd player does the same thing that a normal progressive scan player does. a normal p scan converts dvd's from 480i to 480p. the upconverter i have converts from 480i to 480p, 720p, 768p, and 1080i. since my lcd proj. is 1356x768 i use the 768p and the difference would be roughly 4x better than native 480i dvd's. and you can tell, big time. just thouught i would let people with higher resolution screens know that you can get a better pic. i got a samsung at cc open box for 125 a few months back and that includes a HDMI cable included. not a bad deal IMHO

robert393
10-19-2005, 02:22 PM
Are you sure about that?

Can you put up a link please, that states that?

Surely you jest! There are tons and tons of links & info out there on this subject. Hardware release may be pushed back 'till 1st Q '06, but it's coming!~ Software is releasing by Christmas!
You can start here.
http://www.hddvd.org/hddvd/

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/hddvd/eng/press/index.htm#050922

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/hddvd/eng/press/pdf/050927E.pdf

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_09/pr2102.htm

latest release:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12487

More:
http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5618766-1.html

Enjoy!
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 02:46 PM
How much are these HD-DVD's going to cost? Assuming they average $25 each, it would cost me over $8000 to replace my 480 DVD's! Ain't gonna happen...

L.J.
10-19-2005, 02:58 PM
Surely you jest! There are tons and tons of links & info out there on this subject. Hardware release may be pushed back 'till 1st Q '06, but it's coming!~ Software is releasing by Christmas!
You can start here.
http://www.hddvd.org/hddvd/

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/hddvd/eng/press/index.htm#050922

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/hddvd/eng/press/pdf/050927E.pdf

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_09/pr2102.htm

latest release:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12487

More:
http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5618766-1.html

Enjoy!
Robert

Good information. I swept through all the articles but will take the time to read them later. I'm all for bigger and better, but that's not gonna stop me from enjoying myself now. Until I see it with my own eyes it's only words to me. On top of that, I'm not jumping into anything until I see some major titles laying around. I hope all this does become a reality, and catch on one day soon but I will not be one of the first people to drop a thousand or so on a new player. I'm content with what's available right now. Thanks for info

L.J.
10-19-2005, 03:04 PM
LJ, not to change the subject, but I love the little guy banging his head against the wall. It's killing me.
Our department has a little running joke about, well, let's just say, another department here. We feel that their brain power is so low that it's a miracle that they don't just bump into the walls when their walking. one typical question we get from them:

Them: I see this part number on our system.
Us: OK?
Them: I was wondering about it.
Us: OK?
Them: Well our system says that it's no longer available.
Us: OK?
Them: Does that mean that we can't get it?
Us: No, we just put that there to throw you off.
Them: Oh, so can you put the description back in so we can sell it?

That's funny. I saw it and had to put in somewhere.

GMichael
10-19-2005, 03:18 PM
That's funny. I saw it and had to put in somewhere.

Ditto. I put it in my internal signature. Whever I send an email within our company it will be under my name.

robert393
10-19-2005, 03:56 PM
I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually). Then I watched that 480p source through the same amount of 1080i diplays.

I asked you before, and I'm STILL WAITING. What 480p SOURCE are you referring to? I'm not aware of ANY 480p SOURCE. Please share this information......

Admit it, your in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD, and the more you talk, the deeper you dig the hole you are in...lol!!

Quit while your ahead and just admit you don't know what source material your really watching.....lol!

This reminds me of a saying we have down here in Texas. Goes something like this: "You need to get out of the way & let the big dogs eat, otherwise stay on the porch and piss with the puppies." Simply put, it means if you don't know what you are talking about, you don't need to be talking.
Robert

GMichael
10-19-2005, 04:10 PM
I asked you before, and I'm STILL WAITING. What 480p SOURCE are you referring to? I'm not aware of ANY 480p SOURCE. Please share this information......

Admit it, your in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD, and the more you talk, the deeper you dig the hole you are in...lol!!

Quit while your ahead and just admit you don't know what source material your really watching.....lol!

This reminds me of a saying we have down here in Texas. Goes something like this: "You need to get out of the way & let the big dogs eat, otherwise stay on the porch and piss with the puppies." Simply put, it means if you don't know what you are talking about, you don't need to be talking.
Robert

SHHHHHHHHHhhhh..........

L.J.
10-19-2005, 04:31 PM
SHHHHHHHHHhhhh..........

You guys are sooo funny. LMAO. HAHAHAHA. Nice GM.

N. Abstentia
10-19-2005, 06:27 PM
I asked you before, and I'm STILL WAITING. What 480p SOURCE are you referring to? I'm not aware of ANY 480p SOURCE. Please share this information......

Admit it, your in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD, and the more you talk, the deeper you dig the hole you are in...lol!!

Quit while your ahead and just admit you don't know what source material your really watching.....lol!

This reminds me of a saying we have down here in Texas. Goes something like this: "You need to get out of the way & let the big dogs eat, otherwise stay on the porch and piss with the puppies." Simply put, it means if you don't know what you are talking about, you don't need to be talking.
Robert

Do they teach reading there in Texas? Oh no wait..I forgot our beloved president is from that state so I'll excuse your ignorance.

As I've said time and time again, my 480p source was always a progressive scan DVD player.

As far as running with the big dogs..I don't know any big dogs that use IN-WALL speakers in their home theater. Maybe one day you can step up.

But here's the one thing I'm ready to admit...I really don't care what you think. Sure I'm no expert on HD, but I've been doing the audio side of things for 15 years. I really don't need advice from some 28 post noob with inwall speakers. GMichael gave more information in one post than you did in all yours combined.

But I'll give you one more chance...play a DVD on your system and post pictures of the difference in 480p and 1080i. I'd love to see it.

robert393
10-20-2005, 05:23 AM
Do they teach reading there in Texas? Oh no wait..I forgot our beloved president is from that state so I'll excuse your ignorance.
Careful when you attack an entire state.


As I've said time and time again, my 480p source was always a progressive scan DVD player.
Prove my point AGAIN. That point being that you simply don't know what source material you are watching. SOURCE material (which you claim is 480p) is THE SOFTWARE ie, the particular movie you are watching. NOT the hardware ie, DVD player.
Me, as well as many others here have tried to explain this to you. Seriously, what part of this do you not understand? If you are watching a DVD, you are watching 480i SOURCE material. Get it?


As far as running with the big dogs..I don't know any big dogs that use IN-WALL speakers in their home theater. Maybe one day you can step up.
You may have a valid point there, although they work well with my setup. My dedicated HT room only measures 26' by 17', and to get the multi-level seating and furniture I wanted the In-Walls worked the best for me (given the limited size of the room). Actually I have been quite pleased with their performance. And the In-Wall Flush mounted (THX-Ultra) Atlantic Technology System 20eSR Dipoles only cost $1300.00 per pair, so I only have $2600.00 invested to achieve true 7.1 surround. I'm sure your 7 channel surrounds are MUCH NICER.
Of course I really missed-the-mark by using the 133" 16x9 Draper screen instead of doing like you and USING PAINT for my screen. So, that must be REALLY nice....lol! That's very HIGH END. I'll have to consider taking down my screen and PAINTING THE WALL GREY!


But here's the one thing I'm ready to admit...I really don't care what you think.
What have I said I think? I said I think you have a VERY NICE setup. One that most videophiles can only dream of having. I even gave you a link to a WONDERFUL REVIEW of your projector!

What I got in return was an attack on my HT. What a piece of work you are.

Sure I'm no expert on HD, but I've been doing the audio side of things for 15 years.
Dude, you said it best, your knowledge regarding SOURCE material, HD, Scaling, and the topic of HD in general is not good. So, why not just listen for a bit or do some research on the subject before you start talking about it and giving misinformation?


I really don't need advice from some 28 post noob with inwall speakers.
It really doesn't matter how many posts I've made, does it? So the number of posts (or lack thereof) makes a person more qualified...lol! But, FYI, I am a LONG TIME resident of this site. Try maybe 5yrs. But, I did have to re-register recently and it started my "count" over again. Ask some of the "old-timers", they know me and my reputation ie, Smokey, Terrance. You may want to look here, post #15 from Terrence http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13467&page=1&highlight=robert393

GMichael gave more information in one post than you did in all yours combined.
Yeah, he gave GREAT information, but you STILL DIDN'T LISTEN! It's obvious you don't understand what the term SOURCE MATERIAL means. It's not that hard to understand. So hopefully you now realize you NEVER WATCHED 480P SOURCE MATERIAL. You viewed 480i SOURCE MATERIAL, ran through PROGRESSIVE SCAN processing.


But I'll give you one more chance...play a DVD on your system and post pictures of the difference in 480p and 1080i. I'd love to see it.
One more chance to do what? You still don't get it. I watch HD daily. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. If you don't know the PQ difference between 480p & 1080i, you owe it to yourself to check it out.

Tell you what though. Just keep hanging around and you are bound to have some of this information rub-off on you!

I REALLY like your HT setup, and for a $1000 (Native: 854x480 Pixels) projector with a wall WITH GREY PAINT FOR A SCREEN, it is nice. I hope you enjoy it!
Robert

Eric Z
10-20-2005, 05:38 AM
easy, guys! now i'm confused- i guess i just want my ht picture to look good and for the sound to be good. that's all.

na- good idea to place the pics of your addition on that website- it was cool watching it through to completion.

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 06:13 AM
Careful when you attack an entire state.

Robert

Yes we must be careful before talking down an entire state. However there is no restraint or reason needed to attack an entire country! Texans crack me up!

We're still waiting on those pictures. We want to see this 'major difference' between 480p and 1080i you keep talking about.

robert393
10-20-2005, 06:31 AM
We're still waiting on those pictures. We want to see this 'major difference' between 480p and 1080i you keep talking about.

OK, I give up. Your right. 1080i SUCKS and 480p is SUPERIOR. God....McFly (knock on head) (reference to Back to the Future).

You just don't get it do you....lol!

Dude, you are only about 4 yrs out of the loop of cutting edge technology.

How 'bout that 480p SOURCE MATERIAL you got....LOL!!!!!!!!!

Actually, you are boring me now. You know how you can play with a child for a while until you need to actually talk to a grown-up that can communicate on your level.

You don't answer any questions, you don't acknowledge when you were mistaken, and...well........you just bore me....lol! No valid exchange of idea's or even a ligitimate challenge bores me quickly.

I would like a response to post #46, but I ain't counting on much in the way of an actual intellegent response.

You know you could "save face" right here and just say what you have said before and that is that you don't know what you are talking about....THEN STOP TALKING, and showing your lack of knowledge regarding this subject.

Now, enjoy your $1000 (Native: 854x480 Pixels) projector WITH GREY PAINT FOR A SCREEN, it is nice. I hope you enjoy it!
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 08:37 AM
Again, unless you are posting screen shots of a 480p DVD being displayed at both 480p and 1080i you have no use here.

We're waiting......

L.J.
10-20-2005, 08:54 AM
Hey GM,

You plan on having a dedicated theater room when your house is built?

GMichael
10-20-2005, 09:02 AM
Hey GM,

You plan on having a dedicated theater room when your house is built?

Not really. It will be the living room, but I'm treating it like it will be. Going to have dark paneling put in this room. Even the ceiling fan is getting pushed to one end to make room for the projector.
My wife knows how much this means to me so she has been giving in to whatever I want for this one room. The rest of the house is hers.

L.J.
10-20-2005, 09:25 AM
Not really. It will be the living room, but I'm treating it like it will be. Going to have dark paneling put in this room. Even the ceiling fan is getting pushed to one end to make room for the projector.
My wife knows how much this means to me so she has been giving in to whatever I want for this one room. The rest of the house is hers.

That's cool. I've been toying with the idea of converting my garage. It's a oversized 1 car garage. We gotta baby coming soon and his room shares a wall with living room. No more explosions at 10:00pm :eek: .

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 10:20 AM
Not really. It will be the living room, but I'm treating it like it will be. Going to have dark paneling put in this room. Even the ceiling fan is getting pushed to one end to make room for the projector.
My wife knows how much this means to me so she has been giving in to whatever I want for this one room. The rest of the house is hers.

I had to push my ceiling fan back too :)

The only thing about paneling is you want to make it so it won't vibrate and rattle. Are you talking about the thin wood type paneling?

GMichael
10-20-2005, 10:25 AM
I had to push my ceiling fan back too :)

The only thing about paneling is you want to make it so it won't vibrate and rattle. Are you talking about the thin wood type paneling?

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that rattle. My builder is pretty good and has an HT room of his own. I will run this concern past him to see what he did.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-20-2005, 10:49 AM
Wow this thread is rather interesting. First, Robert393 is a rather old pal of mine, been around here a looooong time. Adam, Robert, and Smokey have briefly abandon me, and left me to deal with certain individuals alone. I will pay them all back for this LOL

The native display resolution of DVD is 480i. When you kick in progressive scanning it increases to 480P. 480P looks noticeably better than 480i. Upscaling that picture to 1080i DOES produce a smoother image, and on my 65" there are no visable scan lines at my viewing position 10 feet away. On my set with the image coming through a broadcast quality video switcher/processor I can definately see a difference between 480P and 480P upscaled to 1080i.


Yeah like I said I'm no expert by any means, but everything I've read says that 480p is better than anything i...or interlaced.

Not true at all. 1080i even upconverted from 480P definately looks better than just plain 480P. 720P and 1080i are indistinguishable to the eye.


Well I think the big thing is that even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p or 720p is preferred over 1080i. Plus if a DVD it natively 480p, is there any advantage to upconversion? Can you add things that aren't there to start with?

Upconverting 480P to 1080i is much like upsampling audio from 44.1khz to 88.2khz. It is not that you are actually increasing the amount of information in the video or audio, it is that you are sampling it more times, and interpolating it with the base information. In audio the result would be a smoother sound that doesn't sound edgy, more air, and better seperation. With video the picture is smoother, less jaggies, less digital noise.

The lines in a 1080I picture are so fine, they are no more visiable than on a 720P picture. That is not the case of 480i. 720P looks no better than 1080i except during fast motion viewing like sports. If movies are the primary source, then 1080i and 720p are inexstinguishable to the eye.

L.J.
10-20-2005, 11:00 AM
Good info. I swear my mind must just be simple. I toggled back and forth for awhile with Nemo and just didn't see it. I currently got my 2910 set to 1080i, so I haven't been missing anything. I'll have to play with my settings later.

Smokey
10-20-2005, 12:22 PM
First, Robert393 is a rather old pal of mine, been around here a looooong time. Adam, Robert, and Smokey have briefly abandon me, and left me to deal with certain individuals alone. I will pay them all back for this LOL

If you are talking about Nick's possie, you will be mostly on your own. :D



Upscaling 480p picture to 1080i DOES produce a smoother image, and on my 65" there are no visable scan lines at my viewing position 10 feet away. On my set with the image coming through a broadcast quality video switcher/processor I can definately see a difference between 480P and 480P upscaled to 1080i.

One beg the question as does "smoother" picture necessary equal better picture. I think we all can agree on that upscaling does not improve resolution. If there are no more resolution to fill out the gap warranted by 1080i format, all we are seeing is picture blown out to fill out resolution vertically and horizontally.

You said you are using broadcast quality video switcher/processor which might explain partly why you are seeing smoother picture (may be it is good at cleaning in up video noise). But how many consumers can claim that their up converter is broadcast quality also?

robert393
10-20-2005, 12:29 PM
Wow this thread is rather interesting.
The native display resolution of DVD is 480i. When you kick in progressive scanning it increases to 480P. 480P looks noticeably better than 480i. Upscaling that picture to 1080i DOES produce a smoother image, and on my 65" there are no visable scan lines at my viewing position 10 feet away. On my set with the image coming through a broadcast quality video switcher/processor I can definately see a difference between 480P and 480P upscaled to 1080i.



Not true at all. 1080i even upconverted from 480P definately looks better than just plain 480P. 720P and 1080i are indistinguishable to the eye.



Upconverting 480P to 1080i is much like upsampling audio from 44.1khz to 88.2khz. It is not that you are actually increasing the amount of information in the video or audio, it is that you are sampling it more times, and interpolating it with the base information. In audio the result would be a smoother sound that doesn't sound edgy, more air, and better seperation. With video the picture is smoother, less jaggies, less digital noise.

The lines in a 1080I picture are so fine, they are no more visiable than on a 720P picture. That is not the case of 480i. 720P looks no better than 1080i except during fast motion viewing like sports. If movies are the primary source, then 1080i and 720p are inexstinguishable to the eye.


First, Robert393 is a rather old pal of mine, been around here a looooong time. Adam, Robert, and Smokey have briefly abandon me, and left me to deal with certain individuals alone.
Well, I'm back...with a vengence I guess....lol! Things have settled down for me a bit so, looks like you got me back with ya' Big Guy!
I REALLY tried to be nice by complimenting Mr. N. Abstentia's dedicated HT room & equipment, and only took issue with his giving wrong information regarding 480p material sources (there are none!) & remarks regarding his stance pronouncing the supiority of 480p over 1080i. As well as his misinformation regarding 720p being superior to 1080i (unless of course fast motion is displayed ie, sports in which case 720p would be preferred).

Thanks for jumping in here Terrence! Always good to hear from a true expert! I tried my best to explain, hopefully your explaination will make more sense to Mr. N. Abstentia.

N. Abstentia should be able to view the difference between 480p & 1080i at a local retailer (or speciality shop). Of course he will NOT be able to view (true) 720p or 1080i on his (Native: 854x480 Pixels) projector.

Again, unless you are posting screen shots of a 480p DVD being displayed at both 480p and 1080i you have no use here.
There is NOT SUCH THING AS A 480P DVD. ALL DVD is 480i. What part of this do you not understand? A P-Scan DVDP can process the 480i signal for display at 480p, but not 1080i. Dude, you are REALLY mixed up!!!
I really don't think N. Abstentia's request for me to post pics (720p or 1080i vs 480p) is required. Anybody with even the most basic knowledge of 720p or 1080i knows it's superiority to 480p. 720p & 1080i are the "Holy Grail" of PQ (at least for today!). And their superiority over 480p is undisputed in the realms of the videophile community.

Robert

robert393
10-20-2005, 12:50 PM
If you are talking about Nick's possie, you will be mostly on your own. :D
Hope your not including me in ANY possie (wait a minute....would that be a GOOD thing?), I've pretty much always gone it alone......lol!

It is good to be back with you guys. I miss Adam ALOT. He really was one of the "good guys". His contributions were endless. Always good info, even if it contridicted a popular person or idea. Always informational, without being confrontational, and if he was wrong, he admitted it. That's a man. The idiots drove him away.

Robert

Smokey
10-20-2005, 01:23 PM
Hi Robert. Good to hear from you. You need to come around more often, that goes for that darn Nick too. It is the only way to keep Sir TT in line as he fly off the handle once in a while..LOL

I miss Adam too. He went from being the most active member to almost non existence. Same with Woodman :(

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 06:30 PM
robert..if you need help posting those pictures that prove your point, let me know. It's pretty basic but I'll help you do it. You do have these pictures you keep talking about...right? Surely you wouldn't be talking so much without backup......right? We all need to see how much better a 480p DVD is through a 1080i display...seriously now, I want to see what all I'm missing by not viewing a native 480 progressive source through a 1080 interlaced display.

ericl
10-20-2005, 06:40 PM
N.A., I just checked out the pics on your page for the first time since you broke ground basically. Awesome!! Man I am so jealous. Looks like boatloads of fun. Paradigm Actives, I've been wanting a pair of those for ages! Congratulations, yer a lucky dude!!

robert393
10-20-2005, 07:25 PM
robert..if you need help posting those pictures that prove your point, let me know. You do have these pictures you keep talking about...right? Surely you wouldn't be talking so much without backup......right?
I never said I have pictures. I never talked about having pictures. Show me ANY POST where I said I had pictures to post.

Again, unless you are posting screen shots of a 480p DVD being displayed at both 480p and 1080i you have no use here.
There is NOT SUCH THING AS A 480P DVD. ALL DVD is 480i. What part of this do you not understand? A Progressive-Scan DVD Player can process the 480i signal for display at 480p, but not at 1080i. Dude, you are REALLY mixed up!!!
I don't know why you keep requesting for me to post pics (720p or 1080i vs 480p). Anybody with even the most basic knowledge of 720p or 1080i knows it's superiority to 480p. 720p & 1080i are the "Holy Grail" of PQ (at least for today!). And their superiority over 480p is undisputed in the realms of the videophile community.

I have told you, Smokey has told you, and Terrence has also tried to explain this to you, but you still don't understand. I give up.


I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually).
What 480p SOURCE did you watch? When are you going to share this 480p SOURCE material you are talking about? As it has been explained to you BY SEVERAL PEOPLE, there is NO SUCH THING AS 480P SOURCE.

Face it, you don't know what you are talking about! Listening to you is like watching a train wreck in slow motion....frighting, and horrible, but still I can't take my eyes off it....

I guess I should ask now, before you repond with another comment that has no meaning. Are you ok? I mean, do you have any learning disabilities you would like to share at this time? Maybe you were dropped on your head as a baby or something? No offense intended, I just feel like I'm having a discussion with a "slow-learner" or someone with a learning disability. If that is the case, I apologize for repeating myself in response to your comments, and for confusing you.
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 08:35 PM
ALL DVD is 480i. A Progressive-Scan DVD Player can process the 480i signal for display at 480p, but not at 1080i.
Robert

...and that's why 1080i was ZERO improvement in my (and most everyone else's) eyes. If DVD was 1080i then displaying it at 1080i would be better...BUT IT'S NOT!

Thanks for proving my point.

N. Abstentia
10-20-2005, 08:40 PM
N.A., I just checked out the pics on your page for the first time since you broke ground basically. Awesome!! Man I am so jealous. Looks like boatloads of fun. Paradigm Actives, I've been wanting a pair of those for ages! Congratulations, yer a lucky dude!!

Thanks Man! I'll have more pictures soon, everything is in a mess now. I set it all up then tore it all down a few days ago to install baseboards and finish the trimwork. Now I've got around 1000 cd's laying in the floor and my rear speakers are..somewhere in this mess :)

As far as the Actives...I love them. I passed up a chance to get another set of Active 40's and an Active center recently..just couldn't pull that trigger. I didn't want to be stuck with speakers that would be nearly impossible to replace, which is probably why the Active's didn't sell better than they did.

ericl
10-20-2005, 08:45 PM
As far as the Actives...I love them. I passed up a chance to get another set of Active 40's and an Active center recently..just couldn't pull that trigger. I didn't want to be stuck with speakers that would be nearly impossible to replace, which is probably why the Active's didn't sell better than they did.

what do you mean by "impossible to replace"?

robert393
10-21-2005, 05:44 AM
...and that's why 1080i was ZERO improvement in my (and most everyone else's) eyes. .
You were not watching 1080i. If you ever view 1080i you will see a marked improvement over 480.

If DVD was 1080i then displaying it at 1080i would be better...BUT IT'S NOT!
By golly, seems as if you finally got it! Congratulations!


Thanks for proving my point.
You didn't need me to prove your point. You did that all by yourself........

Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not..........(editors comment: That statment pretty much says it all, but you prove that point over & over....read on.)

....what's the advantage of a 1080i projector? What is the native resolution of a DVD?..(editors comment: You proved you don't know or understand, but still claim 480p's superiority!.)

.....Yeah like I said I'm no expert by any means, but everything I've read says that 480p is better than anything i...or interlaced...(editors comment: Admission that you don't know or understand, wow, guess you should have stuck with "I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080".)

....even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p is preferred over 1080i. ..(editors comment: This is when you REALLY start proving your point that you don't know or understand what you are talking about.)

All I know is this..after demoing 1080i and 480p I preferred 480p because 1080i still suffers from interlacing...(editors comment: further proof of ignorance regarding the subject matter.)

I guess I just don't understand scaling.....(editors comment: you have proved that, and you would have done yourself a HUGE favor if you would have just left it at that.)

I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually). (editors comment: This shows you don't understand there is no such thing as 480p SOURCE!)

As I've said time and time again, my 480p source was always a progressive scan DVD player.(editors comment: Again proof that you don't understand there is no such thing as 480p SOURCE material!)

...play a DVD on your system and post pictures of the difference in 480p and 1080i..(editors comment: Proof you don't understand that a DVD is 480i and not 1080i.)

We want to see this 'major difference' between 480p and 1080i you keep talking about. ..(editors comment: still claiming the superiority of 480p over 1080i.)

I really don't need advice from some 28 post noob......(editors comment: guess you should have done a little research and find that I have been here a loooong time. Of course research is not one of your "strong-points")

...and that's why 1080i was ZERO improvement in my (and most everyone else's) eyes.(editors comment: still proving your point that 480p is superior to 1080i...you may need to get back on your "meds", because you must be hallucinating.)

You have proved your point all by yourself....over & over again. You didn't need my help in proving your point. The point you have proved is you don't know what your talking about, so......just leave it alone before you look even more foolish & ignorant than you already look!

btw...I'm still waiting to know what 480p SOURCE DVD you viewed........lol!
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-21-2005, 10:41 AM
You were not watching 1080i. If you ever view 1080i you will see a marked improvement over 480.

btw...I'm still waiting to know what 480p SOURCE DVD you viewed........lol!
Robert

Well that's why we keep asking for the PICTURES. We want to see this 'marked improvement' that a 480p DVD has when displayed at 1080i.

I don't know how many times I have to say what my 480p source is. Here, I'll type slow so you can understand:


480P IS A PROGRESSIVE SCAN DVD


Clear enough?

N. Abstentia
10-21-2005, 11:34 AM
what do you mean by "impossible to replace"?

They are maybe not 'impossible' to replace, but very very difficult. Since they are no longer made, if an amp dies it will have to be repaired. If that's not possible, the only thing you can do is replace it with a used Active Paradigm...IF one can be found. And once it's found...they ain't cheap. That's why I was kind of weary about having an entire speaker system made up of Active speakers.

robert393
10-22-2005, 05:00 AM
Your story is changing. In Post # 26 you said:
I did watch a 480p SOURCE through a 480p display (many many many displays actually).
I want to know what 480P SOURCE you viewed through the 480p display? You mis-spoke, because their is no such thing as 480p SOURCE MATERIAL available for you to view through the 480p display. You probably viewed 480i SOURCE through the 480p display. Face up to it, be a man, and just admit you were wrong and move forward.
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-22-2005, 07:08 AM
See, DVD has 480 lines of resolution. Without progressive scanning it will be interlaced, which is 480i. With upgraded equipment you can go progressive scan which is 480p. When it comes out of the DVD player, it's 480p, so that is the source.

robert393
10-22-2005, 07:35 AM
See, DVD has 480 lines of resolution. Without progressive scanning it will be interlaced, which is 480i. With upgraded equipment you can go progressive scan which is 480p. When it comes out of the DVD player, it's 480p, so that is the source.
Your SOURCE MATERIAL is still native: 480i....not 480p.
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-22-2005, 08:30 AM
*sigh*

Smokey
10-22-2005, 10:58 AM
You mis-spoke, because their is no such thing as 480p SOURCE MATERIAL available for you to view through the 480p display.

Robert, if we put it this way, it might not be so confusing becuase you all starting to confuse me also :D

It is true that native DVD player is 480i, but if material is upconverted to 480P inside DVD player, then the source can be 480P. One just have to flip a switch :)

N. Abstentia
10-23-2005, 11:43 AM
Guess that settles that. Thanks Smokey!

robert393
10-23-2005, 04:43 PM
Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not..........(editors comment: That statment pretty much says it all, but you prove that point over & over....read on.)

....what's the advantage of a 1080i projector? What is the native resolution of a DVD?..(editors comment: You proved you don't know or understand, but still claim 480p's superiority!.)

.....Yeah like I said I'm no expert by any means, but everything I've read says that 480p is better than anything i...or interlaced...(editors comment: Admission that you don't know or understand, wow, guess you should have stuck with "I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080".)

....even though 1080i has more scan lines, it still suffers from interlacing which is why 480p is preferred over 1080i. ..(editors comment: This is when you REALLY start proving your point that you don't know or understand what you are talking about.)

All I know is this..after demoing 1080i and 480p I preferred 480p because 1080i still suffers from interlacing...(editors comment: further proof of ignorance regarding the subject matter.)

I guess I just don't understand scaling.....(editors comment: you have proved that, and you would have done yourself a HUGE favor if you would have just left it at that.)


What Smokey is saying is that we could be arguing over symantics (Source Material vs Source Player). I think you have done a good job of proving you NEVER knew the difference from the beginning, but I was willing to let it go.

But, good job N. Abstentia! Look at your quotes above to see that your a real genius when it comes to this HD stuff. Let's see....you say 480p is better than 1080i...LOL!! Dude, stop while you are ahead, and you can stop the pain. Stick to talking about subjects you actually have knowledge (Audio).

I was willing to leave this thing alone, and let it rest, so, don't start again. I think it is apparant for all to see from your quotes above that you don't really know what you are talking about, and repeatedly show your ignorance when talking about HD. Or do you want to keep on saying how great 480p is and how it is "preferred over 1080i". Stick with your first quote "Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not".

Keep watching your Native: 854x480 Pixels with 480 lines of resolution, and praising the superiority of 480p over 1080i. Don't even think about how nice HD is, because you are not ever going to be able to achieve anything even remotely close to it with your projector. But, that GREY PAINT for a screen will surely make the 480p look even better....lol! The nice thing is that you can go to Best Buy, or Circuit City and see HD on one of thier floor models (True HD display!) if you ever get tired of watching your $1000 projector that is "maxed-out" at 480 lines of resolution.
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-23-2005, 05:58 PM
You must be one of those noobs who like to get the last word in, even when proven wrong. Ain't gonna happen here, bud. Give it up.

How does it feel knowing that my painted screen spanks your uber-expensive screen?

How does it feel knowing that you'll never get proper sound with inwall speakers? I'll also bet that huge couch right in the middle of the room does wonders for your soundstage.

Must suck to be you.

Enjoy your crap speakers and overpriced screen and don't worry about trying to reply to things you seem to think I said. We wrote you off 15 posts ago.

N. Abstentia
10-23-2005, 06:01 PM
your a real genious when it comes to this HD stuff. [/I]


God I love it when some noob tries to be smarter than he actually is. Nothing better than not knowing how to spell 'genius' when you're trying to cut somebody down!! LOL!!

Also, it should be "you're a real genius" and not "your a real genious".

Enjoy your inwalls. Maybe someday you can upgrade to Bose.

BWAAAA HAA HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

robert393
10-24-2005, 05:05 AM
You must be one of those noobs who like to get the last word in, even when proven wrong. Ain't gonna happen here, bud. Give it up.

How does it feel knowing that my painted screen spanks your uber-expensive screen?

How does it feel knowing that you'll never get proper sound with inwall speakers? I'll also bet that huge couch right in the middle of the room does wonders for your soundstage.

Must suck to be you.

Enjoy your crap speakers and overpriced screen and don't worry about trying to reply to things you seem to think I said. We wrote you off 15 posts ago.

Proved me wrong about what? Do you believe you have convinced me how great 480p is and how it is "preferred over 1080i". Now you want to start saying how a GREY PAINTED WALL "spanks" a Draper fixed screen that cost 3x as much as your projector alone...lol! You are a piece of work. Stick with your first quote "Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not".


...don't worry about trying to reply to things you seem to think I said I don't "seem to think" you said those things....those are DIRECT QUOTES from YOU in this very thread.

Dude....get back on your meds. Your not well. Like I said, Keep watching your Native: 854x480 Pixels with 480 lines of resolution, and praising the superiority of 480p over 1080i. Don't even think about how nice HD is, because you are not ever going to be able to achieve anything even remotely close to it with your $1000 projector that is "maxed-out" at 480 lines of resolution, and projecting on a GREY PAINTED WALL for a screen!
Let's see, you say:
1) 480p is "preferred over 1080i"
2) A GREY PAINTED WALL "spanks" a Draper fixed screen.
Next you will be raving about the new BOSE SPEAKERS you just bought at the same DISCOUNT HOUSE you bought the rest of the junk you got in your HT, and how they are "preferred over" anything else!

Like I said, your much better off sticking with your first quote "Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not." Post #10
Robert

GMichael
10-24-2005, 05:13 AM
Proved me wrong about what? Do you believe you have convinced me how great 480p is and how it is "preferred over 1080i". Now you want to start saying how a GREY PAINTED WALL "spanks" a Draper fixed screen that cost 3x as much as your projector alone...lol! You are a piece of work. Stick with your first quote "Well to be honest I really don't know much about resolutions and 480 and 1080 and what not".

I don't "seem to think" you said those things....those are DIRECT QUOTES from YOU in this very thread.

Dude....get back on your meds. Your not well. Like I said, Keep watching your Native: 854x480 Pixels with 480 lines of resolution, and praising the superiority of 480p over 1080i. Don't even think about how nice HD is, because you are not ever going to be able to achieve anything even remotely close to it with your projector. But, that GREY PAINT for a screen will surely make the 480p look even better....lol! The nice thing is that you can go to Best Buy, or Circuit City anytime and see HD on one of thier floor models (True HD display!) if you ever get tired of watching your $1000 projector that is "maxed-out" at 480 lines of resolution.
Robert

Don't I hear some puppies calling you?

robert393
10-24-2005, 05:30 AM
Don't I hear some puppies calling you?
SHHHHHHHHHhhhh..........nobody pulled your string.

GMichael
10-24-2005, 05:34 AM
SHHHHHHHHHhhhh..........nobody pulled your string.

But don't you think it's time to give it a rest?

robert393
10-24-2005, 05:39 AM
But don't you think it's time to give it a rest?
Absolutely. You are 100% right, and I couldn't agree more. Tell that to N. Abstentia. I agree to not post to this thread (regarding him) anymore if he will. In other words, I won't talk to him, he don't talk to me on this thread ANYMORE.
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-24-2005, 07:29 AM
I think the thing you're incorrectly assuming is that I actually give a flying flip about having a 1080i display. That's another area where you're wrong...I don't care. I really don't. I don't have a 1080i source, so I could care less about having a display that will display it. This system is designed for home theater, not watching TV. The best signal the projector can possibly get is a 480p DVD, because that's all that is hooked to it! That makes 1080i USELESS to me at this point. THAT'S WHY I PREFER 480P. Why should I pay double for a projector that's 1080 native when I can't even use it? It will display 480p exactly like a 480 native projector.

I'm glad you've decided to bow out and go away, lets see if you can stick to your word.

And just so you'll know...my front speakers cost more than your screen/projector/inwalls combined. Think about that before you call something you've never heard of 'junk'. Just because they don't sell it at Best Buy with the rest of your equipment does not mean it's junk.

robert393
10-24-2005, 12:22 PM
I think the thing you're incorrectly assuming is that I actually give a flying flip about having a 1080i display. That's another area where you're wrong...I don't care. I really don't. I don't have a 1080i source, so I could care less about having a display that will display it. This system is designed for home theater, not watching TV. The best signal the projector can possibly get is a 480p DVD, because that's all that is hooked to it! That makes 1080i USELESS to me at this point. THAT'S WHY I PREFER 480P. Why should I pay double for a projector that's 1080 native when I can't even use it? It will display 480p exactly like a 480 native projector.

I'm glad you've decided to bow out and go away, lets see if you can stick to your word.

And just so you'll know...my front speakers cost more than your screen/projector/inwalls combined. Think about that before you call something you've never heard of 'junk'. Just because they don't sell it at Best Buy with the rest of your equipment does not mean it's junk.

Ahhh....you couldn't shut up could you! I'll gladly bow out of conversing with you anymore in this thread, but I'll not go away........you got a problem with that, then it's your problem. I was here LOOOONG before you, and will probably be here long after you flitter away.

But, it REALLY is too bad you don't have any HD sources available to you, when so many are available to everybody else. Let's see: ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, (all of which are available FREE with a simple OTA antenna). VOOM (21- TRUE HD Channels & cost $5 per month), SHOWTIME, HBO, ESPN, HDNET, HDNMV (MOVIES), DISCOVERY & TNT are also available for a small monthy fee. Not to even mention D-VHS MOVIES http://www.dvhsmovie.com/movies/trailerpark.asp
Wow....you can't watch ANY HD....You actually BUILT a dedicated HT that is not capable of reproducing HD, AND YOUR PROUD OF IT....LOL!!!!!!!

If you REALLY love movies and enjoy the art of video and DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO REPRODUCE HD.....Dude, you are REALLY missing out. Don't ask me, ask ANYBODY. HD is the "Holy Grail" of video. HD rules! Looks like you "missed-the-boat"!

And now for your speakers. From reading your bio I see you have the Paradigm Active 40's! And you brag "my front speakers cost more than your screen/projector/inwalls combined". You got to be kidding me....RIGHT? Those babies (and I DO MEAN BABIES!) are INTERNALLY POWERED, 3-way BOOK SHELF speakers that RETAILED for less than $2000.00 for a PAIR with AMP INCLUDED! That's some BUDGET Book- Shelf speakers dude!
http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/paradigm-reference/floorstanding-speakers/PRD_120324_1594crx.aspx
Paradigm is a value speaker, at best! "Their most expensive speaker combination is actually a pair of Active/40 speakers with a Servo 15 subwoofer -- $3500 in total. This is hardly an expensive setup in high-end terms"- http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/paradigm/

My center channel (alone!) cost more than your Paradigm Active 40's!

Man, you GOTTA GET BACK ON YOUR MEDS...LOL!!!

You REALLY want to see an equipment list? Try finding any of this at the DISCOUNT STORE you bought your junk from!

AVR
Denon 5800 (7.1 170w x 7)

Projector
JVC DLA-SX21U (LCOS 1.5m Pixel)

Lens
Panamorph PSO-SX21

Screen
Draper 133" 16:9

Black Masking Borders
Light Absorbing Border Eliminates “Over-Scan”

Speakers
Mains-
Def Tech BP3000TL (Bipolar w/ (1) 18" 1000w
powered sub in each)
Center Channel
Def Tech C/L/R 3000 (Mono-Pole w/ (1) 10" 150w
powered sub))
L/R surrounds & L/R Rear Surrounds-
In-Wall Flush mounted (THX-Ultra) Atlantic Technology
System 20eSR Dipoles

LFE-Subwoofer
1-(2700w) Sunfire True Subwoofer

DVD-Audio/Video Player
Panasonic RP-91k DVD-Audio Player

HD Satellite / DVR
DVR 942 Receiver (Dish network)

HD VCR
JVC SR-VD400US Pro D-VHS (True 1080i transmission via Component)

Wire and cabling
Straight Wire, and Audio Quest.

All this in a dedicated HT room measuring 26'x17'.

Now....just keep talking, the more you talk, the more of a fool you look! I'm done with you. Anybody reading this can discern for themselves that you don't know what you are talking about and that you are ignorant.
I'm going to go watch Terminator 2 in HD and get ready to pop some pop-corn and get ready to watch Monday Night Football in HD on my 133" Screen!
Boy, you must be SICK that you got a dedicated HT room and can't watch HD....that must REALLY suck for you.
Good Riddance......I'm done with you.
Robert

robert393
10-24-2005, 12:40 PM
N. Abstentia, I sincerely apologize for all I said about your HT. I just went to your Home Page site and viewed the pics.
http://www.chuckamuck.com/ht/
I'm sure your dedicated HT room & equipment, cost more than the existing house is worth! Dude, I feel sorry for you if you actually have to live in that house....or is that house just for storage (like a barn or something?).

More power to you.....and God bless you! Hopefully you are getting some of that FEMA money for Huricane Victims or something.........

Peace!
Robert

N. Abstentia
10-24-2005, 02:17 PM
What are you talking about? Surely you don't think the storage shed where the screen testing was done is the finished room? Are you a moron? Seriously...can you read?

And just so you know..a friend of mine is a Def Tech dealer. You couldn't pay me to take that stuff home. A single Servo 15 destroys all your 'built in' subs combined. All-in-one speakers are NOT the way to go. It also seems a shame for you to spend so much money then only have a RECEIVER. Ever heard of seperates?

Enjoy your INWALL speakers. I wouldn't even install your speakers in my storage shed!! LOL!!

Go away now, you're boring me.

cam
10-24-2005, 04:11 PM
I hope you guys keep going at it, I'm having a blast. This is the first thread I go to when I go online. Keep up with the entertainment.

Hey N, I know you are getting a little frustrated but you come up with some of your best stuff.

I think if it keeps going eric will most likely put this thread into the steal cage and then you guys can really go at it. LOL

N. Abstentia
10-24-2005, 04:31 PM
Yeah I thought Smokey pretty much ended it at post #75 when he was about the 3rd person to try to explain what 480p meant but alas...here we are at post #90! Sadly some people just don't get it. Eric will probably just have to delete this thread to get "Mr. Last Word" to stop and he can just go on thinking I've got a 125" screen in my 16' x 8' lawn mower shed :)

Oh well, this whole thing is generating tons of traffic to my website, lets keep it going!