Planar speaker placment guide!

[Florian]

Between the direct radiating speakers and dipol systems are some great differences: The full frequency spectrum is not only radiated to the front but also to the back! The rear wave has a enourmas impact on the sound quality. The sound is reflected by the rear wall and is added with a time delay to the direct sound.

The amount of time delay decides by the high end dipoles (fullrange) if the recordings are reproduced with a stunning realism and stage width and depth or if they make them sound horribly unprecise and muddy! The term make it or brake it, really applys to these systems.

If the reflections follow the direct sound in less then 3 milliseconds then the ear cannot differenciate between the two. Sound travels with 344 meter per second, 3 milliseconds are thereby 1m.

Is the in-direct sound forced to travel less then 50cm to the backwall and back to the speaker, then it will heavily influence the sound in a negative way. Short impulses will be altered and fakely enlarged (made longer), which then causes the recording to be dirty, unprecice and softly rendered. That however changes when you give them lots of room to breathe. 70cm are the bear minimum and 1 to 1.5 meters are a lot better.

In a good concert hall, the soundwaves will arive at least 10 milliseconds later then the direct sound waves. That is a difference of 3.5m! That is a distance that we usually cannot place dipoles in our homes (space, waf etc..) since that would take aprox 2m from the backwall in a typical home.

Dipoles can therefore only create the illusion that your in a small concert hall. But then again, is that nothing? ;)

Here are some more requirements that you need to look out for with dipoles.




Diploes must be placed 100% symetrically, otherwise they will sound different from one another.
In its closer surroundings should be nothing reflective or absorbative. They should stand mostly free from boundries.
Do not toe-in your diploes very much otherwise the reflective sound will come from left and right and not from the center which will decrease the dipol effect.
Dipole bass systems are especially critical with placment! Place the center of the planar bass in a odd ratio to the sidewall. Ex: 1:3 (sidewall vs. backwall)

Well so much for the beginners guide to diplos from Florian!

[Florian]

I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls

[E-Stat]

Do not toe-in your diploes very much otherwise the reflective sound will come from left and right and not from the center which will decrease the dipol effect.
While I don't disagree with your overall concept, the best answer is to provide sufficient diffusion of the rear wave from the outset to provide the best imaging. I use a combination of bass traps and absorptive panels on the wall behind my 'stats. Toe in then can be optimized for the radiation pattern of the speaker. In my case, the Sound Labs radiate over a 90 degree pattern and stage width benefits from a much greater degree of toe-in than I used with my old Acoustats.

rw

[Florian]

I agree with your experience too, but in this case you own a electrostatic speaker. I think that the electrostatics dont have that bass hump which is evident on the planar magnetics like Maggies or the pure ribbon speakers like the Apogees. Also the panels are curved on the soundlabs so its a tad different ;-)



The Maggies need a bit of a to-in in order to make up for the driver delay.


Electrostatics are not my knowledge field but i am sure your guide will work wonderfully


Pure ribbons like the Apogees need a reflective backwall with no toe-in for bass tuning and to smoothen outt the significant information below 25Hz.

[JoeE SP9]

With flat panel electrostatics such as my Acoustats there is a tradeoff between the use of reflections and the sweet spot. Flat electrostatics have a very small sweet spot. Toe-in is mandatory for proper tonal balance with panels of this type. Of course with toe-in there is a reduction of the "planar effect" so a compromise must be reached. The minimum amount of toe-in that puts you in the sweet spot is where one starts.Once you have the sweet spot nailed you can change tonal balance and tune the planar effect by moving your listening chair forward or back in 1" increments. You have what acts like a very subtle tone control. I have found this movement to be very helpful with CD's that have a peaky high end or other sonic aberrations. Forward movement helps open up lateral spread while simultaneously taming overly hot high frequencies. Backwards movement decreases lateral spread and tames overly hot high frequencies. Florian's suggestions about distance from walls and symetrical placement are dead on. http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Bones]

I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls

Hi:

I entered the length and width of my room, and the height and width of my Martin Logan Ascent speakers. However, the excel spead sheet did not change values. Do I need to do something else? Does excel need to be running in the background?

[Florian]

That is strange, just enter your distance to the sidewalls and it will show up the odd ratios to the backwall. What i can really recommend for your Martin Logans, are dispersive backwalls :-)

[squeegy200]

Florian,

I've been using your spreadsheet as a guideline in arranging my listening room and my Magnaplanar SMGs in that space. These are much more sensitive to placement than my previous dynamic box speakers.

I've noticed that not only is listening position in relation to the speakers are important, that there are discernable nodes on the vertical axis as well. When I stand up I can hear different timbres and cancellations.

I've read several of the positioning arguements made by other owners and some are advocating lifting of the speakers off the floor.

Are there guidelines for speaker placement in the vertical axis?

[JoeE SP9]

All of the planar speakers I've ever owned or listened to had a different sound when standing unless they were substantially taller than the listener. Acoustat 1+1's and 2+2's do not have this problem as the are constructed to act as quasi line sources in rooms with 8' ceilings. Tilting your MMG's back on the stands will help with the vertical dispersion. Of course, using stands to raise them of the floor so that the vertical middle of the speaker is at ear height will go a lot further towards solving the problem. If I remember correctly, there used to be stands for Quad ESL57's that raised them off the floor because of the vertical dispersion problem. http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[MOON]

I agree with E-Stat that the rear wave has to be diffused big time or else as already stated it bounces off the rear wall and back to the stator panel as in Logans which I own or the same with maggies.

I read an article in Sterophile a few years ago where they took a bi-fold slatted closet door behind the speaker on the wall with the door halfs slanting back to the wall at a 30% angle from the middle of the door where the hinges are . The hinge part is in line with the center of your speakers.

Prime and paint the slatted door the same color as your walls. You can use a spray can primer which will speed up the finishing process. It comes in white, and then paint them after.

The rear wave hits the slatted door and the wave is dispersed to the side and center of the room instead of going off the wall and back into the panel. This slatted panel works great and really will clean up the midrange and you will get better soundstage focus.

You can buy the slatted doors at any Home Depot store.

I also use slatted door halfs in the corners of my room also. Take the hinges off the 2 halfs of the doors, this gives you a panel for 2 corners. This also cleans up the sound as well.

The rear wave shouldn't be absorbed at all, just diffusion is whats needed. I agree , electrostats should be kept quite a distance from the rear wall. Mine are a tad over 4 ft from the wall.

If you own maggies or Logans, try this slatted door tweak, it will amaze you with the results , and it is cheap to do.

If anyone is interested , I will post the Stereophile article on the slatted doors.

Cheers, 1st post

Greg

[Feanor]

I agree with E-Stat that the rear wave has to be diffused big time or else as already stated it bounces off the rear wall and back to the stator panel as in Logans which I own or the same with maggies.

...
Greg

I found that a panel made of ceiling tile works very well indeed. I use a 2' wide panel place at about 35 - 45 degrees with respect to the speaker which deflects the sound outwards as well adsorbing some of the sound. See my picture here: the panel is partly obsured at left of the picture ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1414&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500
I don't know that is is better than the folding doors, but it is simpler and cheaper. Note the the ceiling tile is unpainted.

[Florian]

Maybe i should add that for instance, a Maggie has a different rear wall requirement, then the Soundlab and they differ from Apogees also. Planars are not created equal ;-)

[JoeE SP9]

I have owned Magneplaners or Acoustat's since 1976. In every case in every room they did not sound right unless there was plenty of room behind them. At somewhere between 3 and 4 feet from the wall the sound opens up and the illusion of depth becomes very distinct. Moving too far away will increase this illusion but the bass response may be negatively effected. :cool:

[patpong]

I toe in my Apogee about 1".

[dimes]

Am I crazy?

I have a 20x20 room with a fireplace centered on one wall that bumps out about 4 ft. I'll be building cabinets on both sides to house components, media and main speakers.

Plasma or projection screen above the fireplace so where does the center channel go?
Above the TV is very high, below the TV raises the TV too high AND I'd want to build out the wall 4" to accomodate an in-wall speaker. Both issues are solved with....

Fairly large Planar speaker (or two) behind an acoustically transparent screen mounted in a nice picture frame. I get the TV as low as possible, the speakers behind the screen (perfect!) and I don't have to build out the wall to inset a speaker.

So I know the typical do's and don'ts of planar speakers and dipoles in general - away from the wall, toed in. BUT...

A center channel speaker isn't supposed to have a very wide sound stage so I thought tight on the wall won't be so bad. How awkward would having the backwave reflected so quickly back sound? I can also consider putting an acoustic panel behind the planar to help eliminate the backwave. I realize this is an inefficient way to drive a speaker as well since I'm looking to eliminate half the sound output. I also have no idea how well dynamat or similar products work. I realize not timbre matched to the mains speakers :( but I think I know I can live with that if everything works well and I can work hard with equalization to match as best as possible.

Back to the original question: Am I crazy?

[JoeE SP9]

In the first place a fairly large planar speaker is 5ft tall or taller. In the second place planar speakers require a 3 to 4 feet distance from the wall. There are slim line boxes designed for the position you have in mind. Since you are going to put the speaker(s) behind the screen and filter out half the sound why waste money on planars? Why not put a purpose designed center channel speaker below the screen? Many of them have the kind of low profile you're looking for.:ihih:

[squeegy200]

In the first place a fairly large planar speaker is 5ft tall or taller. In the second place planar speakers require a 3 to 4 feet distance from the wall. There are slim line boxes designed for the position you have in mind. Since you are going to put the speaker(s) behind the screen and filter out half the sound why waste money on planars? Why not put a purpose designed center channel speaker below the screen? Many of them have the kind of low profile you're looking for.:ihih:


I've not heard them myself but Magnaplanar makes a Home Theater setup with wall mounted planar speakers. There is a picture of a HT setup on their website using the wall mounted speakers.

[squeegy200]

I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls


Florian,

The worksheet does not work anymore.

I've been experimenting with the Cardas positioning of my magnaplanars.

[hermanv]

Yeah I know I'm late to the thread. I agree completely about back wave control.

I bought some natural fiber carpet underlayment at a local wool carpet store. If I remember about 40% wool, 20% camel hair and jute. It was about 7/16 thick and reasonably priced. I cut it into 2 panels 6 x 8 feet and hung them behind my Martin Logans so the panels wrapped around the room corners (a narrow 11.5ft room) by about 1.5 feet and went floor to ceiling. Speakers were out from the rear wall about a yard. It all worked great.
http://www.greenfloors.com/HP_CP-Under_Index.htm

Sound Lab sells a commercial absorber panel, it's about 6 feet tall and 2 feet wide with stands. I don't know the price, but since it's Sound Labs it's probably not cheap.
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/accessories.htm

Also I just found these people 2' x 4' x 4" at $47 each, includes mounting hardware.
http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--ATS-Acoustic-Panels--100.html

[E-Stat]

Sound Lab sells a commercial absorber panel, it's about 6 feet tall and 2 feet wide with stands. I don't know the price, but since it's Sound Labs it's probably not cheap.
No they're not. List is $1170 / pair for the Sallies.

For quite a bit less, however, I have been very successful by making a dozen DIY bass traps. They helped me achieve a remarkably flat response in the bottom three octaves. I also use some absorptive panels directly behind the speakers and placed fake ficus plants at the first reflection points.

rw

[hermanv]

No they're not. List is $1170 / pair for the Sallies.

rwHeck, that'll buy a speaker cable for one speaker :)

[BOXMAN]

I have written a Exel table where you can enter your room and speaker data. It will calculate the needed distances in order to keep an odd ratio so that you can place your dipole planar speaker correctly. Doing so with greatly improve transparency and bass responce. Klick here to download the small exel file.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/ratio.xls

I am late to the thread... but interested in this spreadsheet. As someone already pointed out, it no longer works. Any idea where another one of these spreadsheets can be found??

Thanks
Boxman

[Florian]

The main clue is to have an odd ratio between the side and backwalls. I can whip up another spreadsheet, but it will take some time since i am quite busy. Just make sure to have an odd ratio.

Cheers


Flo

[hermanv]

Dipole speaker positioning has two issues, one is the back wave sum/difference for clarity, the second is to match room standing waves for good bass.

I found the Cardas placement guide very good for minimal bass nodes.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup Conveniently this also tends to place the speakers a good distance from the back wall. I set mine at the Cardas distance and then worked with absorptive panels to get the needed clarity. It's a pain, but worth the effort since most dipoles seem to have great clarity easily destroyed by placement problems.

If you are used to conventional speakers, you might not even be aware of the missing clarity. Use the Cardas guide, then get some down quilts and "T" pins. experiment with hanging the absorptive material at various positions behind the speakers with various folding for width and thickness. If you find a combination you like next experiment a little with toe in. Planars on the whole seem to do best with less toe in than you might be used to.

It's possible that more than one iteration might be needed for the absolute best answer.

Now buy or make a permanent panels to replace the down comforter (I find that thicker is usually better) and enjoy the music.

[undermench]

good evening i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall. I get a nice level of bass response. the side walls are basically not interrupted by any furniture. i drive my speakers with a pair of modified dynaco pas 70 in the final stage are a kt-66 set of matched tubes. the grids are baised hot. they approx develop about 100 rms per chanel into a four ohm load. the amos are strapped so each one acts as a mon amp.. I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also. a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up. the rest of my system is a audo research sp-7 with a thorens turntable with a straight line tracking tone arm a rae rabco sl8-e old equippment but still very esotewric. one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH

[Feanor]

good evening i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall. I get a nice level of bass response. the side walls are basically not interrupted by any furniture. i drive my speakers with a pair of modified dynaco pas 70 in the final stage are a kt-66 set of matched tubes. the grids are baised hot. they approx develop about 100 rms per chanel into a four ohm load. the amos are strapped so each one acts as a mon amp.. I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also. a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up. the rest of my system is a audo research sp-7 with a thorens turntable with a straight line tracking tone arm a rae rabco sl8-e old equippment but still very esotewric. one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH

Welcome to AR, Undermench :thumbsup:

Great to hear from you. And very interesting comments and a nice system.

I'm a MG 1.6QR user myself and love the Magneplanar sound. I wasn't aware, though, that the Maggies present a capacitive load. I would be interested in hearing my speakers with a hundred watts or so of tube power; unfortunately no one I know around here has such an amp. On the other hand I am very happy with my tube preamp and pair of Monarchy SM-70 Pro solid state amps. Check out my system configuration, below.

I recommend at least 2 feet from the wall behind the speakers; 3 feet might be better, but I think the the 5 or more some people insist on is more than necessary, at least to avoid doppler interference in the higher frequencies.

[E-Stat]

Welcome!


i have owned a pair of mag I D 's since around 1975 purchased from david beatty hi fi in kansas city mo. ok so big deal they have provided excellent sound
I bought a pair of MG-IIs back in '76 after hearing some Tympanis. It was Maggies that seduced me to the joys of planars.


i I have them paced 18 inches from the back wall and the same distance from the side wall.
Apparently that works fine, but I'm with Feanor in that they are capable of opening up a bit more with more space behind them.


I believe that maggies work best with tubes. why. if i am correct what most people are not aware of is that maggies are not just a purely resistive load they also present a capactive load also.
Every speaker has a certain capacitive element, but in the grand scheme of things they are largely resistive. It is electrostats that present the more challenging capacitive load. Back to Maggies, because of their flat impedance, they work well with tubes.


a transistor amp in some cases can not handled a capacitive load. they some time suffer from severe oscillationswith very bad results reduced power out, poor respone and in some cases they just burn up.
Its a mix. There are some SS amps that do fine with reactive loads. Threshold amps, for example, were always designed around handling that kind of load. Back in the 70s, Nelson Pass used the Dayton-Wright electrostats as the benchmark for ensuring that his amps could work with them. I have an old Stasis amp that I used to drive Acoustats for nearly twenty years. Except for replacing the output electrolytics in the power supply, the amp has been trouble free for 27 years! It is true, however, that many SS amps - even very powerful pro amps get very unhappy with reactive loads.


... one more thing ya i know tube amps run about 1 to 3 % distortion but the human ear really cant detect this thanks for reading this UNDERMENCH
As you indicated many folks get hung up on THD specs which are useless to convey any meaningful answers. It is the distortion spectra that makes more difference. The typical harmonic make up of tube amps falls squarely in an auditory "blind spot".

rw

[Nasir]

I am obviously late ........
I am going through the motions of speaker placement for my Final Sound 300i, and the above advise will be taken into account. However, the Final Sounds are slanted at an angle, very much like the SMGa Magnepans.
Any pointers for such panel speakers will be appreciated, thanks.

[JoeE SP9]

The angle depends on the listening distance and the height of your chair. It is room and personal choice dependent. Use the standard placement suggestions as your starting point and tweak from there. Once you get the overall placement right, adjusting the vertical angle can be your "final" tweak. Small changes in the angle can act as a subtle tone control.

BTW: You're never to late for questions about planars. What kind of sub are you using?

[Nasir]

300i floorstanding speakers, S110 downfiring subwoofer and FVSS 201 Receiver all made by Final sound, helped by a second front firing Trevi (old) subwoofer.
When using 1 sub, its location was easily given away and also I managed a much better low frequency response in the room with the front firing sub firing to the side!!
Having got the speakers past wife, my setup will not be symmetric nor will one the speakers be allowed to be placed more than 33cm (about 1 foot, 1 inch ) and the other 43cm (1 foot 5 inches ) from the back wall ( yeah, front wall by definition) and with me sitting 2.70m ( 8 feet 9 inches) from the center of the line separating the 2 speakers and my head almost against the other wall. One side wall is a full glass pane window 1.70m (5 feet 7 inches) away and the other side wall is 2.42m( 7 feet ) with a door in the middle thatīs almost always open. If this were not enough, another door is always open behind the right speaker. I have my work cut out for me, I know. HEEELP!!!!!!

[hermanv]

I think your speakers are much too close to the walls.

If you can not move them out and away, maybe sound absorbent panels will help.

These were reasonably priced and not ugly. http://www.atsacoustics.com/

The Cardas audio site (and others) have much to say about placement. http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=room+setup

[Nasir]

You are right about the speakers being too close to the back wall. All the articles including the cardas method are clear on that, but so is my sweetheart : " Not an inch more, thatīs as far out as they can come !!"
So, I turned to the dark science of speaker placement, sound absorbers, forums, etc...
Some articles have suggested the use of sound diffusers. The whole idea being the reduction in reflected sound intensity at the listening position without prominent reflections. By reflecting the wave from the back side of the panel in all directions, strong reflections are eliminated and an assortment of time delays are produced, thereby distributing the interferences in the frequency spectrum. Here, speakers slanting at an angle are an added bonus.
Any ideas? Anybody used any diffusers to good effect?
Also there a train of thought out there that in certain cases absorption is not always good,
or too much of it.....
My head hurts from the differing opinions on acceptable time delays, and their detrimental effects, but some reflected sound is good , so the room is the final culprit and has to be tamed!! All identical rooms sound different due to the furniture present and its layout.
I think the little lady will summon the men in the white coats if I insist in being able to hear small differences as the speaker positions are tweaked!!!
Another funny thing is that when I asked for help in moving the speakers around and testing with music, my assistantīs position of choice was different from mine!

[JoeE SP9]

A length of PVC pipe 6" OD and the height of your speakers will work as a diffusor. Place it close to and directly behind your speakers. There are any number of ways to make it stable. A standard pipe flange will do. You can paint it so it doesn't look so bad. The best thing of all is it's so cheap it won't hurt to try it.

The rear wave from di-polar speakers should not be damped (absorbed). It will kill the open spacious sound you paid for. They should both be the same distance from the wall.

You really only need half the pipe. However, it's hard to cut pipe in half vertically.

Two 6Ft lengths of 6" OD PVC pipe should cost less than $20.

[hermanv]

Sound absorbers are a good idea, I've never heard a diffuser, but the predicted effect should help as well. Heavy drapes, soft carpet and wall hangings will accomplish the desired effect while meeting the wife acceptance factor. One other scheme is to flatter hear hearing (often better than a males hearing anyway) and convert her into an accomplice.

A comment about rooms that are "too dead". Most better speakers are designed to measure "flat" in an anechoic chamber. Anechoic chambers are designed to have as close to zero reflections as budget will allow. In other words they are the deadest of dead rooms. Of course you should trust your ears, but I suspect that concerns about excessively dead rooms apply only to very inexpensive speakers.

I know that as I reduced reflections in my listening room a little increase in tweeter level was needed, but clarity continued to improve.

[hermanv]

The rear wave from di-polar speakers should not be damped (absorbed). It will kill the open spacious sound you paid for. They should both be the same distance from the wall.

JoeE: When I put my ESL speakers almost 6 feet from the front wall, the time delay of the reflection caused a great deal of muddling of the sound, especially the midrange. For me at least rear wave absorbers were better than allowing reflections. Of course in a much larger room I suspect you are correct and dipoles will sound best without a rear absorber.

[Nasir]

Oh yes, I am trying to convert my better half into an audiophilly, and everytime there is a major improvement, I check it against her to see if its convincing. Dammit, I even sit next to her to watch the soapies - they do sound much better through these ESLs!!! The ambient sound of the National Geographic Channel programs came across so clearly that she wants to go to those places when I win the lotto!
Come to think of it, I do have some PVC piping left over from the home improvements done a few years ago, so that will be tried next weekend together with rolling up a couple of thick carpets if the need to absorb the sound is called for. If the trick works out then I might find suitably sized lamp shades ( tall ceramic pots, etc) to put in place of the pipes to increase the WAF.
I have even toyed with the idea of placing these 1.4m ( 4 feet ) speakers on top of the subwoofers and facing them towards the back wall ( reversing the polarity of the cables as well ) so that the back wave has a longer path to travel to the listening position.
The sitting room has sufficient absorbing furniture, but the walls could do with some attention, now thatīs been mentioned. Any ideas please? I presume we need concern ourselves with the 1st reflection only, but with the diffuser in place, the equation might change a bit..... I can feel the headache coming on again!!
I suppose as long as I am enjoying this challenge, and am open minded about it, no harm can come of it, apart from having to listen to certain tracks and different frequency test tones over and over again. Any suggestions on our participants favorite test tracks?

[nightflier]

This is a very interesting discussion to me right now, since I've just begun enjoying Magnepans. Of particular interest is the need to pull the speakers about 3' or so from the rear wall, since that is really difficult for many of us with smaller rooms. And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?

[JoeE SP9]

JoeE: When I put my ESL speakers almost 6 feet from the front wall, the time delay of the reflection caused a great deal of muddling of the sound, especially the midrange. For me at least rear wave absorbers were better than allowing reflections. Of course in a much larger room I suspect you are correct and dipoles will sound best without a rear absorber.

Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large. The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right. That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.

[JoeE SP9]

This is a very interesting discussion to me right now, since I've just begun enjoying Magnepans. Of particular interest is the need to pull the speakers about 3' or so from the rear wall, since that is really difficult for many of us with smaller rooms. And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?

I wish I could help you there nightflier. Have you tried asking the people at Magnepan? I'm curious what they have to say.

[JoeE SP9]

Oh yes, I am trying to convert my better half into an audiophilly, and everytime there is a major improvement, I check it against her to see if its convincing. Dammit, I even sit next to her to watch the soapies - they do sound much better through these ESLs!!! The ambient sound of the National Geographic Channel programs came across so clearly that she wants to go to those places when I win the lotto!
Come to think of it, I do have some PVC piping left over from the home improvements done a few years ago, so that will be tried next weekend together with rolling up a couple of thick carpets if the need to absorb the sound is called for. If the trick works out then I might find suitably sized lamp shades ( tall ceramic pots, etc) to put in place of the pipes to increase the WAF.
I have even toyed with the idea of placing these 1.4m ( 4 feet ) speakers on top of the subwoofers and facing them towards the back wall ( reversing the polarity of the cables as well ) so that the back wave has a longer path to travel to the listening position.
The sitting room has sufficient absorbing furniture, but the walls could do with some attention, now thatīs been mentioned. Any ideas please? I presume we need concern ourselves with the 1st reflection only, but with the diffuser in place, the equation might change a bit..... I can feel the headache coming on again!!
I suppose as long as I am enjoying this challenge, and am open minded about it, no harm can come of it, apart from having to listen to certain tracks and different frequency test tones over and over again. Any suggestions on our participants favorite test tracks?

I would try the pipes without carpet. You don't want the rear wave absorbed. You want it dispersed. The wave form from an ESL is identical for the front and rear. Facing the speakers at the wall will have little or no effect on the sound.

Magneplanars (Tympani's excepted) will always sound better from the back. There is no panel with magnets and holes in the way. All floor standing Maggy's have increased high frequencies and smoother midrange when turned around back-wards. They may not look as good but they all sound better that way

The front wall should be a mix of absorptive, reflective and dispersive surfaces. Try some shallow bookshelves with a mixture of books, glass and ceramic knick knacks and stuffed animals for example. A little treatment properly used goes a long way. With some thoughtful choices room treatment doesn't have to make your living room look like a recording studio.

[nightflier]

I wish I could help you there nightflier. Have you tried asking the people at Magnepan? I'm curious what they have to say.

...when I can get someone on the phone, lol. The only advice has been to work with the angles of the speakers in relation to the walls. Ironically, for the surrounds, their recommendation is to point them 90 degrees to the wall. While this does change the sound, it sounds to me like this makes it too diffuse. It also makes me wonder what the sound is reflecting from - if it's the side walls, then is that not causing too much delay?

Consequently, I also have a pair of MG12s that are currently packed up because I simply do not have adequate room for them. I did notice when I had them set up, that the further I pulled them from the front wall, slightly toed in, that they would sound considerably better, but in my room that meant I lost far too much floor space. Hence the reason they are packed up for now.

[JoeE SP9]

Nasir, how did things work out? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Nasir]

Well, I tried the pipes but without an obvious result, so the investigation will continue.
Then I put the Final Sound 300i on top of each subwoofer still keeping the same short distances from the back wall, played around with the toe in and achieved an acceptable soundstage, extending beyond the sides of the speakers. I suspect the reflections are slightly smearing the image, giving me the impression that the sound is coming from the outer sides of the speakers, but it does conjure up a wider stage. I am not sure about depth so much, but its the best setup so far. I want to try the pipes next, after having played a wide variety of music. Listening, with my eyes closed, its easy to make out the vocals coming from the center, easily putting the vocalist in the middle of the line between the 2 speakers. I havenīt had any experience with how much depth one can get. I can tell
some sounds are from further back, but in between is still a mystery so far. Anybody care to explain or help?

[E-Stat]

Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large.
I guess it all depends upon what you consider a very large room. After considerable experimentation and measuring using calibrated tones and an SPL meter, I found that about eight feet out from the back wall provided the most neutral bass response in my 25' long room With the U-1s.


The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right.
Only when you do not have an appropriate amount of diffusion. I use a forest of bass traps to further flatten the bass and to minimize that issue. Further, I have fake ficus trees flanked on either side of the stats to address the first reflection points. The stage I get is both deep and precise.


That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.
As a minimum. The rule of thirds applies in all directions in order to minimize room modes. I would be curious to see pics of your arrangement. Mine are available in the gallery.

rw

[E-Stat]

And that brings up another question: what about wall-hanging Magnepans? Should they not be placed on the wall for optimum sound quality?
That would be horrible sonically for any dipole. They need to breathe. Remember that the room is the enclosure.

rw

[Feanor]

Six feet is way to far unless the rear wave is severely damped or the room is very large. The Haas effect becomes a problem and you start getting reverberant sounds when they are too far away from the wall. Most dipolars need the addition of the reflected rear radiation to sound right. That's why almost all placement recommendations say around 3 feet from the wall.
I agree with this advice. I think there is such a thing as too far from the wall behind. I use the configuration below, and get excellent imaging and sound stage.

I don't have E-Stat's deep bass problem with my Maggie 1.6, (unfortunately), so that's not an issue for me.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/MaggieSetup.jpg

[E-Stat]

I don't have E-Stat's deep bass problem with my Maggie 1.6, (unfortunately), so that's not an issue for me.
The issue was not so much with the low bass as it was the mid to upper bass region (call it the second and third octaves). When the U-1s were close to the wall, the overall sound was heavy and ill defined, not to mentioned constricted dimensionally. The first octave was there as they respond flat in my room to 25 hz. But, the fat and overripe midbass colored the result and masked what low bass was truly present. Not only did my ears tell me this, but also detailed measurements using test tones and the trusty RS SPL meter confirmed this.

I fully understand that each room and speaker combination pose their own unique situation. Fore and aft placement will, however, tune the critical mid bass region for most all dipoles. Admittedly, some speakers benefit from the reinforcement.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

I guess it all depends upon what you consider a very large room. After considerable experimentation and measuring using calibrated tones and an SPL meter, I found that about eight feet out from the back wall provided the most neutral bass response in my 25' long room With the U-1s.


Only when you do not have an appropriate amount of diffusion. I use a forest of bass traps to further flatten the bass and to minimize that issue. Further, I have fake ficus trees flanked on either side of the stats to address the first reflection points. The stage I get is both deep and precise.


As a minimum. The rule of thirds applies in all directions in order to minimize room modes. I would be curious to see pics of your arrangement. Mine are available in the gallery.

rw

I completely agree with your placement suggestions. My speakers are a little over 4 feet from the wall in my 26 foot long room. I don't have all the bass traps that you have but I have books (lots) and LP's (lots) on the walls with bass traps and other devices. The first reflection points received special care. With a good recording the walls behind and to the sides of the speakers disappear. The sound stage is almost holographic in depth, width and placement.

Sometimes when I am somewhere helping someone set up a system I use Duct tape to hang towels on the walls at the first reflection points. When I return the towels are gone and something more appropriate and aesthetically pleasing is there. If you are reading this and don't have panels, the advice about reflection points still applies.

[nightflier]

That would be horrible sonically for any dipole. They need to breathe. Remember that the room is the enclosure. rw

...on-wall or off? Sorry, but I didn't understand your response.

[E-Stat]

...on-wall or off? Sorry, but I didn't understand your response.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I would not hang them on the wall as one would hang a painting with the panel radiating directly against the wall. What Magnepan recommends, however, is that you could mount them on side walls (or HT cabinets) on hinges such that they fire down the wall as opposed to at the wall. And they can swing out of the way when not in use.

Wall mounting (http://magnepan.com/model_MC1)

Note that you must still allow some distance behind them for optimum results.

rw

[audio amateur]

Off-wall, like any dipole really. They need room to breath which means that they're needs to be some room between the speaker and the wall.

[JoeE SP9]

Well, I tried the pipes but without an obvious result, so the investigation will continue.
Then I put the Final Sound 300i on top of each subwoofer still keeping the same short distances from the back wall, played around with the toe in and achieved an acceptable soundstage, extending beyond the sides of the speakers. I suspect the reflections are slightly smearing the image, giving me the impression that the sound is coming from the outer sides of the speakers, but it does conjure up a wider stage. I am not sure about depth so much, but its the best setup so far. I want to try the pipes next, after having played a wide variety of music. Listening, with my eyes closed, its easy to make out the vocals coming from the center, easily putting the vocalist in the middle of the line between the 2 speakers. I havenīt had any experience with how much depth one can get. I can tell
some sounds are from further back, but in between is still a mystery so far. Anybody care to explain or help?

Imaging beyond the lateral plane is almost a given with planar speakers. The perceived width and depth are recording dependant. With good recordings the back wall (behind the speakers) and the side walls will disappear. You do need to damp the first reflections on the side walls. To find that point, sit in your listening position and have someone move a mirror along a side wall. When you can see the speaker in the mirror that is the first reflection point. Do the same for both sides. Place sound absorbing material from near the floor to just above the speaker height. A foot and a half to two feet in width should be sufficient.

Good luck and good listening. Keep us informed of your progress.

[Nasir]

Perhaps some of you can enlighten me on what sort of depth perception to expect: I can clearly distinguish between close, somewhere in the middle and far behind, presumably from how clear and intense the sound is. No problems with locating instruments from left to right. In fact, I don`t always get the main vocals dead in the middle!
Another funny thing: listening the next day, I almost always find something is off and try to correct it. Obviously with my non symmetric arrangement, the toe in is not identical.
After all these weeks, the results are heartwarming.
By placing the speakers on top of the subwoofers ( the arrangement looks like a Martin Logan ESL now , panel on top of woofer unit ) Iīve managed to overcome a couple of problems (or at least masked them) : Some sounds and certain vocals seemed to be coming from very near the floor, giving me a not so realistic feeling. These floorstanding speakers are slanting at an angle.
I use the system to watch normal TV as well, and am always trying to pick out what is not in the right place.

[JoeE SP9]

The depth of the sound-stage is highly dependant on the recording. Most popular music recordings are done with multi-tracking and dubbed and re-dubbed. They have little or no depth, although they usually have a very good left right spread. Generally Classical and Jazz (not smooth jazz) have a decent sound-stage because minimal miking and overdubbing is used. If you play vinyl, any Direct to Disc recording will have a very good and deep sound-stage. They are usually recorded with minimal miking and no studio overdubbing. An excellent example of a deep sound-stage on a CD is Jacintha, Here's To Ben, Groove Note GRV1001-2. It was recorded live to analog two track tape and the CD was mastered from that two channel tape. This CD sounds like there is a room 30 ft deep and 20 feet wide where my speakers used to be. To some the word analog may be a turn off. I hear no tape hiss whatsoever in this recording. What I hear is a group of musicians with a very good singer performing in a moderately large room

With your ESL's on top of your subs and tilted back you may be out of the direct sound field. You may need to set your speakers up with no tilt. A lot of the sound seeming to come from very low could be an indicator of too high a crossover frequency.

How tall are your subs?
What crossover frequency are you using?

[Nasir]

The subs stand 14 in (about 36 cm) tall and the crossover is around 100 Hz ( selected automatically by the Final Receiver ).
You have a point there regarding direct sound due to the tilt of the ESL. I will have to try that and the diffuser pipes as well. At the moment the tilt is probably reducing the comb filter effect, but the center of the ESL beams well above my head. With the speakers on the floor, certain sounds seem to be coming from the bottom, but now that is no longer the case. So, I am trying to solve as many different effects as possible.
These improvements have to be enjoyed, and I end up sleeping less!

[JoeE SP9]

100 Hz is probably a good point for the crossover. The tilt at that height will put you out of the direct sound field. ESL's have very Little dispersion above and below the diaphragms. The level on the subs may be too high. A good starting point is to turn them up until you can just hear them as separate sound sources and then turn them down a bit. Ideally a Sound Pressure Level Meter like the Radio Shack unit and a CD, LP or PC program is the best way to dial in sub-woofer levels.

[nightflier]

this is false advertising:

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/speakers/MC1_02.jpg

I'm also wondering about what to put on the wall behind them. Should I even use absorbing panels, or are the speakers designed to make use of a harder wall surface?

[Feanor]

this is false advertising:

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/speakers/MC1_02.jpg

I'm also wondering about what to put on the wall behind them. Should I even use absorbing panels, or are the speakers designed to make use of a harder wall surface?
Well, I suspect it depends on the angle of the speakers with respect to the wall. The greater that angle, (assuming less than 90 degrees), the more the backwave will be defected away from coming back at the speakers themselves.

To some degree I employ the principle myself using this configuration, The ceiling panel baffle effectively increases the angle of the speaker with respect to the wall behind ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/MaggieSetup.jpg

[Geoffcin]

I can comment on maggies mounted on wall, as that's exactly as I have them in my main 7.2 HT. The MC1's I have wall mounted work very well as surround speakers and are infinitely adjustable as to their directionality. Bass falls off below 100Hz quickly, but they provide a much more expansive soundfield compared to any monopole speakers I've ever heard.

The setup shown for the front wall is the correct way to set them if your going to use a multiple MC1 setup on the front wall. It appears non-traditional for maggies, but I assure you it produces a planar type of sound field. With two MC1's as a center the focus for dialog can be quite good across a large seating area. My system doesn't lend itselt to use suce a placement strategy, but I would not discount how good it could sound compared to my CC3.

[Nasir]

With the Finals as far out as the little woman would allow and the subs directly behind them, I got a taste of a sonic scenario that I thought was only found in reviews and other peopleīs listening rooms. With eyes closed and the lights turned off, it didīnt need much effort to place instruments around an imaginary stage, the distances being relative obviously, since one would presume that the distance between speakers limits the width of the stage. There were a couple of drawbacks though: some sounds and certain vocals seemed to to coming from the bottom of the speakers giving an unnatural feeling.
I placed the panels on top of the subwoofers to eliminate the problems, but the Iron Lady would not permit the Martin Logan lookalike arrangement that far out from the back wall. Not very excited with sound produced, I turned the slanting panels around to face the back wall and changed the polarity of the speaker wires.
Initially the sound did not please me, but I kept changing the distance to the back wall within the limits and spent a lot of time with the toe in to get it right. The soundstage is now comparable to my previous best, but it lacks a little in locating cues. I could get a better feel of distances with the first arrangement. I dare say that there must be a lot more ceiling reflections present now....... I had better get to work on the diffusers!!

[Dawnrazor]

I've had my mmgs for 12 or more years now I think. Bought them say 6 months after they came out. They are heavily modded (some I am pretty sure only I have done) and while it is easy to dismiss them I have had a 1.6 owner over to listen who agreed that the modded mags beat his stock 1.6s handedly. (And that was in the first setup I will describe below.)

Lots of different rooms and listening setups.

I agree with alot of the advice here. Like having them vertical and away from the back wall. IMHO all that is a must.

Though I have left the "normal" setup along time ago. Never liked any toe in when I was running a normal setup either.

FOr the longest time I had a nearfield and sideways setup with the speakers facing each other:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/26701/Maggie_setup_10.22.096.JPG

Listening to the backs of the speaker this setup was less "Hifi" and more like music. The speakers disappeared and the interesting thing was that even though they were a foot from the sidewalls the distance to the back wall was what was important. For small rooms, this is IMHO a win win as one can place them close to the walls as long as they are out into the room. IN the pict the speakers are about 4 & 1/2 ft into the room. And I had them close to 6 ft out before that.

HOwever I recently change to a more radical setup, though I am guessing that the sideways one is plenty radical for Feanor :p

I cant really describe it so a pict is best:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/26701/Maggie_setup_3.11.10.JPG

As you can see the listener is looking at the sides of the speakers edge on. The speaker just disappears and one is left with real music in a real space. Not sure if this works in the "Hey I sit 10ft away from the speakers" kind of setup, but I am not the only one who has tried this and really liked it.

Anyhow please actually TRY either of these setups with vertical speakers before criticizing. You may just be pleasantly surprised.

[Feanor]

I've had my mmgs for 12 or more years now I think. Bought them say 6 months after they came out. They are heavily modded (some I am pretty sure only I have done) and while it is easy to dismiss them I have had a 1.6 owner over to listen who agreed that the modded mags beat his stock 1.6s handedly. (And that was in the first setup I will describe below.)

Lots of different rooms and listening setups.
....

Anyhow please actually TRY either of these setups with vertical speakers before criticizing. You may just be pleasantly surprised.
I won't criticize, DR, but I won't necessarily try them either. But here's a thought for you ...

Your unusual setups suggest to me that you might like ominidirectional speakers. For several years, (long ago), I owned a pair of Ohm F, Walsh driver, omnis and they at the same time "disappeared" but provided good imaging almost anywhere in the rooms without any "sweet spot".

BTW, one of these fine days I'm going to try that choke in series with the 1.6 tweeter to control RFI. Either that, of capacitor in parallel with them.

[audio amateur]

Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?

Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?

[Feanor]

Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?

Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?
Good question, aa. I've certainly considered it. There is a lot of discussion and examples of MG 1.6 upgrades over at Audio Asylum's MUG forum, (here (http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/)). Lots of people say they have had significant improvements doing these upgrades. Personally I just haven't got around to it; I'm no super-tweaker myself.

It does require removing or cutting the Maggie's "sock" and making some wiring rearrangements. However the crossover itself is pretty simple ...

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/mag16-2.gif

Were I to go for it, I'd start with a tweeter capacitor upgrade, maybe Mundorf Supremes. I have already replaced the standard fuse with a Hi-fi Tuning fuse for, at best, an extremely minor improvement.

Dawnrazor advocates RFI control on the tweeter, as I recall a 100 uH inductor in series. An alternative in that regard might be a 47 nF capacitor in parallel.

[audio amateur]

It does require removing or cutting the Maggie's "sock" and making some wiring rearrangements.
Isn't that just a small piece at the back you have to cut?

Were I to go for it, I'd start with a tweeter capacitor upgrade, maybe Mundorf Supremes. I have already replaced the standard fuse with a Hi-fi Tuning fuse for, at best, an extremely minor improvement.!
For the price you paid for the tuning fuses you could have paid a chunk of the crossover parts. Unless you want to keep a fuse no matter what...
The crossover schematics look easy enough even to me. It could cost you some if you use good parts but it may well be worth it. Let us know when you decide to!

I just looked up the Supremes, very expensive!

[Feanor]

Isn't that just a small piece at the back you have to cut?

For the price you paid for the tuning fuses you could have paid a chunk of the crossover parts. Unless you want to keep a fuse no matter what...
The crossover schematics look easy enough even to me. It could cost you some if you use good parts but it may well be worth it. Let us know when you decide to!

I just looked up the Supremes, very expensive!
Yeah, but I didn't have to cut anything to install the fuses!!

The Mundorf Supremes are pretty expensive. One could get by with a single pair of 22 uF @ US$92.16 each from Parts ConneXion. Some would might argue that the multi-capacitor set up is better in concept. So one might prefer 18 + 3.9 + 0.1 uF, though that would add up to significantly more money.

[audio amateur]

Some might argue that the multi-capacitor set up is better in concept
What advantages do they claim this has?

[Dawnrazor]

Feanor, given your experience/knowledge of crossovers, I am surprised you haven't upgraded the crossovers for your 1.6s. Are you planning to?

Dawnrazor, do you have a real pic of your setup?


Not a recent one, though I am in the middle of a stand project and will be moving the amps and tidying up the room, and finalizing my panel vibration tweak. I will take some picts then.

Right now, here are some old ones but you can kind of see some of the mods. WHy I only have pictures of the lowpass filters and not the capless high pass is beyond me. THough I will be going active once I make some new ICs.

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/5570.html

[Dawnrazor]

Dawnrazor advocates RFI control on the tweeter, as I recall a 100 uH inductor in series. An alternative in that regard might be a 47 nF capacitor in parallel.

Hey Feanor,

It is actually 10 uH. Here are the ones I bought and put in series with both bass panels and tweeters:

http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=542-5502-RC

Best 12$ upgrade for mags!!!

And I think I would like omni speakers. THough I cant say as much as I like maggies. FWIW there still is a sweetspot in this setup.

Also I dont have the good sense to hide my love of Starwars on internet sites, so:

Feanor if one is to be a wise and just audiophile one must embrace a larger view, not just the narrow-minded dogmatic view of Magnepan...

YOu should give either of those setups a try. I am not saying they will work for everyone, but when they do, you will know it and it will be worth the effort. Also the #1 mag dealer in the states sets up their mags sideways and actually does a demo where they move them from the normal setup to a sideways setup while you listen. RIbbon models dont seem to be as particular about working in this setup as they are vertical and have a 180 deg tweeter dispersion.

d

[audio amateur]

Dawnrazor, are you based in the UK?

[Feanor]

Hey Feanor,

It is actually 10 uH. Here are the ones I bought and put in series with both bass panels and tweeters:

http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=542-5502-RC

Best 12$ upgrade for mags!!!

And I think I would like omni speakers. THough I cant say as much as I like maggies. FWIW there still is a sweetspot in this setup.

Also I dont have the good sense to hide my love of Starwars on internet sites, so:

Feanor if one is to be a wise and just audiophile one must embrace a larger view, not just the narrow-minded dogmatic view of Magnepan...
...

d
Thanks for the correction on the inductor value, DR.

Someday maybe you should check out some omnis. I suggest Ohm, see here (http://www.ohmspeakers.com/). They have a 120 day return policy.

I owned Ohm F's for awhile many years ago, and I consider it one of my biggest audio mistakes that I sold them in favor of B&W DM7's. Oh, the folly! :cryin:

[Dawnrazor]

Dawnrazor, are you based in the UK?

AA, so sorry. I am in the states. But am still a good person:smile5:

[Dawnrazor]

Thanks for the correction on the inductor value, DR.

Someday maybe you should check out some omnis. I suggest Ohm, see here (http://www.ohmspeakers.com/). They have a 120 day return policy.

I owned Ohm F's for awhile many years ago, and I consider it one of my biggest audio mistakes that I sold them in favor of B&W DM7's. Oh, the folly! :cryin:

Why did you sell them??

ALso, I will keep them in mind, but have a problem auditioning inhome a speaker I have no intention or budget to buy.

But maybe the mags will die. Given my soon to come active experiments there is a great chance I could kill em...Maybe I'll be one of the few to toast a quasi ribbon tweet.

[audio amateur]

AA, so sorry. I am in the states. But am still a good person:smile5:
lol, I don't doubt it. I'm half American myself;) The reason I ask is because the price on the link you posted appears to be in British Pounds.

[Feanor]

What advantages do they claim this has?
I think an engineer would say the only advantage is lower resistance.

However I believe some 'philes feel that mutiple caps, and especially where there's one < 0.1 uF, gives better high frequency transients. I'm not sure: maybe the theory is that lower value caps load & discharge more quickly.

[Dawnrazor]

lol, I don't doubt it. I'm half American myself;) The reason I ask is because the price on the link you posted appears to be in British Pounds.

Audio, I think it is a smart website as it appears in dollars when I click it.

Looks like when you go there it is pounds.

Top or bottom half???

Almost for got, half of me is from wales and ireland...top half I think.

[Dawnrazor]

I think an engineer would say the only advantage is lower resistance.

However I believe some 'philes feel that mutiple caps, and especially where there's one < 0.1 uF, gives better high frequency transients. I'm not sure: maybe the theory is that lower value caps load & discharge more quickly.

Yep, that is my understanding of the theory. Though I dont use caps in my maggies except on the lowpass...

[audio amateur]

Audio, I think it is a smart website as it appears in dollars when I click it.
Smart website indeed


Top or bottom half???
It's hard to say really. Both very different. I think I feel more French than anything:) That is where I've lived most of my short life (I'm 22).

Have you spent much time on this side of the pond?

[JoeE SP9]

I once heard a pair of Beveridge ESL's that were designed to be set up facing each other on opposite walls. They were part of one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard.

[Nasir]

Hello everybody,
I have been quite for a while now, in fact since the 3 rd of January when the ferryman took my favorite cat to the other side where I hope they know that its favorite foods include Portuguese piri-piri chicken and boiled fish!!! Alas the the 2 remaining cats are so different....
Anyway, to avoid being depressed, I built 3 small sized diffusers but the results are not that convincing and believe me, unless you want to occupy yourself so that the mind should not wander, I strongly suggest buying the stuff instead of building them using wood. The therapy worked for me at least.....
When I say that the results are not that convincing, I mean that over the whole frequency range, but for that one needs reasonable distances from diffusers to listening position, enough room to position the diffusers, size of pieces of wood and number of wells etc....
So, was it a complete waste of time one may ask?
I should say a categorical NO!!!!
I considered my living space and the size of diffuser I could hide behind the speaker without being thrown out of the house.... a mere 42 cm ( more or less 17 inches ). Next, I chose a 2D skyline design and made 1 diffuser using 3cm by 3 cm ( 1.2 inches by 1.2in) pieces of pine wood, another using 1.3 cm by 2.7 cm ( 0.5 in by 1.1in ) pine wood and a third 1D diffuser using 6cm ( 2.5 in) thick pieces of wood with 7 wells of 12cm ( 5 in )max depth all designed for frequencies 1kHz and above. Then, I stacked them up against the wall behind one speaker... yes 3 diffusers to cover one speaker only!
The next part is not so scientific in the sense that I did not use a Radio Shack sound meter ( item on my shopping list to get when I visit the US once a year ), but instead put my 2 non linear, non anything for that matter, big ears to register differences with and without the diffusers in place.
What did I hear ??? Brace yourselves, its what I did not hear is what matters!!!
The test CD tones for the design frequencies was significantly softer indicating to my ears that the wall reflections for these frequencies was diffused, but to get diffusion for the whole frequency range, one would have to build several different diffusers to account for the each segment of frequencies.....
An objective conclusion can only be drawn after I get the sound meter, until then you can take my word on what its worth.

[JoeE SP9]

I asked about this in another thread. I just saw that you had posted to this thread. I'm glad to hear you are having some success.

[hermanv]

Nasir;

I think you'll find absorbers are better than diffusers. If nothing else, absorbers are more easily built so they cover a broader spectrum than diffusers. I used extra thick wool carpet underlayment from a natural fabrics carpet store and significantly improved clarity and imaging from my Martin Logan ReQuests.

Few of us have a room big enough for a dipolar speaker, they need to be far from the wall behind them to work correctly. A good absorber will make that distance appear infinite.

Sound Labs makes a good absorber/diffusor, unfortunately like most Sound Labs products they are not inexpensive. These people http://www.atsacoustics.com/ have a reasonably priced product, less than ideal they do provide good improvement per dollar spent.

[Nasir]

The wife was away for a week, so as the saying goes ( more or less ) " When the catīs away, the mice come out to play " needless to say that the ESLs were so far out into the room that the 2 real cats had their usual playing area reduced to crawling space!
So, with a glass of red wine in one hand and the amplifier remote in the other, I hit the play button and left everything to the physics of acoustic waves.
After 2 days ( or rather nights ) of disturbing the neighbors the Finals were not much better sounding than their original position.
Opening a bottle of different wine, I hit on an idea: " Never mind the physics, lets be ignorant and put aside the no-noīs of speaker placement." I pushed the speakers back into their original spot and reduced the leaning angle that their original stands were designed for, and had them almost parallel to the wall behind them facing straight out ( no toe in ) and was rewarded with an immediate improvement.
Next day, without the wine now ( yes, I know changing scientific conditions like this can seriously compromise test results ) I leaned the speakers forward even more so now ( I checked it with a laser beam ) the reflections from the middle of the speaker would travel up and hit the listening spot well above the ears.... the sound got better still and in fact the CD test tones gave the best all round results I have managed so far.... the only down side being that the speakers were not stable enough to be left unattended for long periods. So I will have to work on a new base for them.
The lady of the house was not back yet, so I toed in the ESLs quite a bit, so much so that laser beams from the centers of the speakers would cross in front of my nose. I had read somewhere that some reflected energy is beneficial and is better than none at all. Maybe by chance I got that ratio right, because it is by far the best placement position for my listening room and I am enjoying my listening experience. The test tones results for this position is more uneven than the last one but the sound is quite convincing and I really want to enjoy my music for the moment!
So the moral of the story is not to drink while listening but rather try breaking the rules a little as they might work for your system in the listening space, GOODLUCK!

[hermanv]

Nasir;

Only one rule really matters. "Does it sound good to you?".

Follow that rule and you will end up with a fine set up for the owner, the hell with anyone else.

[K-High-Fi]

Hello Friends,

I have question for Magnepan MG-20, if I store the speaker for long time lets say more than 4 years and use it after that, would the storing affect the speaker performance? And do I need to remove the tweeter or leave it intact with speaker?

Im asking this because I have been told storing speaker can damage it and should be used all the time. I want to store it because I moved to small place temporary.

I appreciate you opinion.
Thanks to everyone.

Sorry I posted my question here, but I felt no need to open new thread for storing! Unless its worth it.

[bubslewis]

K-High Fi

As long as you store the speakers in a fairly good environmentally controlled area ( like not in a hot/cold attic or damp basement), there should be no more detrimental effect on them than if you had them in active use in your living room. Such things as capacitors degrading or foam surroundings rotting should basically happen at the same rate, whether the speakers are in use or not. Proper storage conditions are the key.

With Maggie 20's, BOSE 901's, B&O towers (what kind?), Infinity towers and JBL monitors that's alot of vintage speaker hardware for your one room. What do you plan to do with all of it?
Bill

[K-High-Fi]

Thank you Bubslewis very much for reply. :) Sorry! All other speakers are sold, I list them here because I thought I could share experience with others. Hmm, I will update the informations.

About the tweeters! Do I need to remove them and put them back in their original tube box or its fine if I leave them with the speakers?

Thanks for helping :)

[Neo]

Hi im Neo im just new here. i would like to ask can the musical fidelity A1x drive the magnepan mg 1.6? thanks..

[magtrw]

Not only do dipole speakers require a lot of space behind them, but bass damping and diffusion as
well. A large room is also a important factor for
great bass, sound-staging and imaging with dipoles.
I have 6' behind the Martin Logan Summits and
9' behind the Magneplanar Tympani IV bass
panels with bass traps with reflective membranes
that prevent early reflections and comb filtering.
The room is 29' long x 19' wide x 11' cathedral
ceiling with large bass traps placed in all corners,
mid points of walls and mid range traps spaced
evenly 3' around the entire perimeter. The speakers
are placed on the long wall which gives a
enormous sound-field and imaging that is superb.
With a center channel speaker as well as 4 rear
speakers and 4 side speakers, this arrangement
gives one the feeling there actually in the hall (venue)
where the recording was made. Where I sit has
large bass traps directly above and traps behind
as well to also prevent bass buildup and early
reflections.

[betasound]

revive

[Burchill]

Sorry need five posts lol

[Al^]

I'm running 2+2's in my big room which is 34'3"x90' cieling is 10'3" for 16' and then goes to 12'3" the rest, I have the 2+2's 16' off the back wall and 8' from the side walls. I sit 70' from the speakers. I get over a 100db easily, the sound is the best I've ever heard from an acoustat, I consider them the best overall speaker I have. I have Apogee Diva's, Apogee Scintilla's 1 ohm, Apogee Duetta Sigs, Infinity RS4.5, Infinity QLS-1, Carver amazing platuimn oak, and more. The 2+2's really dominate in large space, the bass they can produce is almost unbelievable at large distances and tight and fast, also they don't beam in this enviroment either. Like to try 20.1 maggies and see how the fair. :) Al