Where's RGA? Audio Note Japan... [Archive]

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Jimmy C

10-05-2005, 04:22 PM

RGA

10-05-2005, 05:01 PM

...you never mentioned they make their own speakers - the "Ruthys" look interesting...

It seems A.N./U.K. borrows from others (turntables, speakers, amps), while A.N. Japan makes things from scratch (preamps, amps, speakers)... not sure, though. AN Japan speakers have their wookworking done in the US.

Interesting... Kondo San...

Who makes the carts for the tables? In house?

No this is a misconception. AN started as an amp manufacturer and Kondo made the legendary Ongaku and Gaku On. AN UK designed in house transformers, the DAC's which Kondo has since copied, AN UK makes their own top of the line turntable the TT3 which has replaced the Voyd Refernece they own the rights to. AN UK is a 30 or so man operation -- and Andy Grove has designed much of the new stuff including the DACs, the Kegon, etc.

Most all companies outsource given things -- such as transports - But AN when they don;t make it go out and get the very best available from what is available and when it isn;t available they make it themselves -- like Transformers which many other top end amp makers purchase from AN. Cartridges on the lower end decks are modified for AN by Goldring and the TT1 and TT2 arms are from Rega Research.

The Snell speakers were based off of 1940 cabinet shapes by Leo L Beranek -- Snell added the Wave guide system. AN basically took that changed the ports, got rid of the ferro fluid cooling which slugged the sound are using much better drivers and you basically have a given Snell with an additiopn of 25hz a much more open sounding treble and other than cabinet may as well be totally different speakers -- just as the AN E/D is totally different from the AN E/Spe. Systemdek tables (TT1 and TT2) AN created entirely different motors for them and turned the Voyd into a tri-motor set-up.

Audio Note Japan and UK both make the products and Peter is the one who decided which ones were good and which were not worth it.

In response to Mr. Kondo’s posting of January 16, 2000, I would like to put his comments into the following perspective.
Mr. Kondo and I worked together for nearly 20 years and during this time we both benefited enormously from each other’s skills, knowledge and understanding. I have learnt a lot from Kondo-san and I hope that in a quiet moment he also appreciates my love of music, commitment to excellence and unyielding support. Our collaboration worked very well for many years, but as in many relationships, business or otherwise, the parties develop in different directions. I wanted to continue to pursue sound quality through further exploration of the single-ended output stage and all manners transformer coupling.
Mr. Kondo felt in contrast and I believe still feels, as he showed a push-pull 2A3 amplifier at the London High End Show in September 1999. Firstly that the push pull triode output stage can somehow be developed to marshal a return to superiority and secondly that transformers only belong in the output stage of power amplifiers. I always considered this an abandonment of our basic principles and since Kondo-san never presented me with any push pull prototype that proved to be better than any of the SE amplifiers he made, so I have stuck to my views.

The financial crisis in South East Asia in late 1997 polarised these two divergent philosophies, which then became emotionally and commercially incompatible and Mr. Kondo decided to break off our collaboration and we parted our ways.
It is never easy to break up after so many years and especially when it also involves a high profile brand, even more so in an industry infested with rumourmongers, hacks and carpet baggers.

After a brief legal argument Audio Note™ UK Ltd. retained the rights to the brand name registration and Mr. Kondo is now selling his amplifiers under the name Kondo™. The reasons for ANUK retaining the brand name registration are as obvious as they are logical,

1.) The value in the name was created solely and exclusively by Audio Note UK’s and my personal investment. Kondo-san took no part in the financial, strategic or commercial risks involved in building the brand name recognition.

2.) Registering a company under the name Audio Note in Japan does not in itself give the rights to a brand, only the hard work and expense building it is what makes it known and worthwhile, emotional attachment alone accounts for little in the real world. Since the product strategy, investment and most of the concepts were formulated in the UK with Kondo-san co-operating willingly, happily going along for the ride, for as long as the annual rewards were always on the increase. There was no-one crying foul then.

3.) In the end equation is it really so surprising that the brand name stays with the investor, I would have thought that this was normal practice, just ask anyone with money to invest about this and they will tell you the same.
Therefore there is no question of “stealing” the brand name, intellectually, morally or otherwise so I think we should leave Rossini’s masterpiece out of the discussion, attractive as the emotional connections may be.

Now to elaborate with a bit of history.
Since 1990 there were two Audio Note companies, one of which developed and produced its own products under the name Audio Note in the UK and which also specified and distributed Audio Note Japans products and the original company in Japan.
It is important to note here that it was ANUK who decided which products from AN-J should be marketed outside Japan, and the voice you hear in products like the ONGAKU, GAKU-ON, KEGON and M10 is a mixture of Kondo-san’s and mine. These combination of these two voices are inseparable in these products and was decided upon by myself, and as a result I often deemed many of Mr. Kondo’s products not suitable for wider distribution, much to his considerable chagrin. A fact that undoubtedly contributed to his hostile behaviour during our negotiations in late 1997 and early 1998 and to building his deeply aggrieved attitude later.

The original agreement was that ANUK would develop the more commercial part of the Audio Note product line (Levels Zero to Three). In addition ANUK should develop a product range complimentary to the Japanese products, capable of displaying their qualities and also provide an overall development platform for improving the concept of music reproduction shared by Kondo-san and I at the time.
With an investment over 7 years of well over one million pounds, ANUK went ahead and largely fulfilled its obligations under the agreement (which incidentally ran out in 1995 without being renewed and might I ad without much further discussion about brand name, strategy or new terms of contract).

As a small example, in early 1994 ANUK even paid to send an engineer to Japan to teach and train AN-J staff in quality control procedures, product consistency and layout (amongst other matters showing them how to get the power supply quiet enough to remove the feedback from the ONGAKU). Techniques and concepts that did not at the time exist in any measure at the AN-J factory, one of many such small investments that helped make the AN-J products more saleable.

From late 1993 I kept Kondo-san very busy building NEIRO’s, ONGAKU’s, GAKU-ON’s, M10’s etc., but by mid-1997 the emerging financial crisis in South East Asia started dramatically slowing sales. So for the first time in our relationship Kondo-san and I had to face the fact that sales were plummeting and orders to Japan would have to be reduced immediately otherwise overstock would kill our joint cash flow very quickly (these products are expensive to build).

Kondo-san absolutely refused to face up to this fact and make the necessary adjustments to his overheads. So instead of dealing with the problem himself and seek our co-operation to minimise the damage, Mr. Kondo pushed the entire responsibility on to ANUK’s shoulders by demanding that we “fulfil our obligation”. This was in his view that we should buy a minimum of what he could produce to keep staff and turnover regardless of whether we could sell it or not, in other words, ANUK owed him a living regardless of market conditions.
This I in turn refused to do, so stalemate ensued.
Until April 1998 when Kondo-san with complete disregard of all practical facts, our entire history together, all past understandings and with no consultation or prior warning whatsoever gave a UK company, PM Components Ltd., all rights to distributing his products. This in itself was bad enough, considering how the market for these products had been developed, but to add insult to injury and in direct conflict with our common interests (and with ill concealed malicious intent, I now believe). Mr. Kondo also licensed PM to use the Audio Note™ brand name whilst renouncing our use of it, completely disregarding the following facts,

a.) Turnover wise AN-J was very much the junior partner in the relationship, despite its longer history, and ANUK represented at least 80% of AN-J’s turnover.

b.) His ill-considered, irresponsible and callously one-sided action put the 30 or so jobs at ANUK in jeopardy by creating great uncertainty about the brand’s long term future. In addition to that putting 1000’s of our customers’ investments in our products in question through a potential loss of warranty and service back-up should ANUK fail as a result of his actions. ANUK’s turnover at its peak in 1997 was well over £ 4,000,000.00 and that represents a lot of customers’ investments in the future. How can he single-handedly decide to attempt to scrap that?

c.) The reality was and is that whilst the brand name originated in Japan, the ownership of the brand name had long since passed to ANUK through the way the original agreement was structured and the fact that the brand name recognition was paid for and created solely through ANUK efforts.

d.) PM Components had no experience in this sector of the market, a sector solely created by ANUK.

Interestingly and surprisingly, it appears that the terms granted PM were substantially less severe than what Kondo-san had demanded of ANUK in order to renew our agreement. One can only wonder why?
When you add the above up, I did what anyone else in my position would do, in order to protect our employees jobs, our customers and our own investment and ANUK’s future, I sued AN-J and PM. We soon won the first round, an injunction preventing AN-J from giving a licence to the name to PM effectively blocking its use.

So since it was Kondo-san who broke our co-operation and made the decision to venture out on his own, what is he so aggrieved and resentful about? Let me give you a brief analysis for your consideration.

1.) Without ANUK’s involvement in 1990, he would still have a small company in Japan, making high quality audio products. He still has, what happened from 1990 to 1997 were in the most part due to my efforts not his, so any profits or experience he has gained as a result should be considered a benefit, not a disadvantage.

2.) He is not longer travelling to shows that I pay for, showing demonstration amplifiers that I also finance. True, because to do this he needs to work within the framework of my strategy and concepts, using my money and my contacts built up over 20 years of selling quality music reproduction equipment. But this was his own choice, so why am I being blamed?

3.) He would have been unknown to most audiophiles because contrary to his own internal beliefs, Kondo-san became famous through my staff’s, our distributors’ and my efforts to put him in the limelight and explain our joint philosophy to the world. In this regard we gave Kondo-san a head start not many in the audio industry have had the benefit of, how can he be unhappy with that? His decision to leave the partnership has done all the damage necessary and nowhere has this been more clearly demonstrated than what has happened to our joint reputation, as a result, our time has been spent on damage limitation and thinking up new products.

4.) So now all he is having to do is what I did when we started seriously promoting Audio Note in the late 1980’s, start with an unknown brand name (Kondo) and build it to fame and fortune himself. Still without the drawback of complete obscurity (testament to our success putting Kondo-san in the limelight is the fact that you read his posting and that you are reading this now). The clock has been turned back to 1989, due in no small part to Kondo-sans own inability to act responsibly, logically and with respect for other peoples efforts, commitment, time and money.

All in all, misplaced anger and aggression rarely gets you anywhere, hard work generally does. So do what I did with the ONGAKU and our other products, go out, demonstrate your products successfully enough to be able to convince people to part with their money and show people that your products are as good as you believe they are.
Regardless of what anyone may think, I would like Kondo-san to do well, partly because I genuinely believe he deserves to, but partly also for more selfish reasons, who else is there out there to compete with at the very leading edge of audio technology?
Nothing drives you better forward than the hot breath of a benign, likeminded, but pursuing competitor!

I truly cherish the prospect of a genuine intellectual and practical competition with Kondo-san over whose creativity, ideas and skills result in the products with the best sound quality. In my opinion such a competition is in everybody’s interest and should benefit the knowledge base and debate generally. As a starting shot I am gratified to see that Mr. Kondo has adopted my suggestion of 1993, in his new d/a converter, of removing the over sampling and digital filters and replacing them with a simple analogue filter. I regard this new Kondo product a great recognition of the idea, so thank you for that Kondo-san!

There will always be some of you who prefer a different dynamic balance to the voice that my products speak with, so there is room for us all and if you are in the market for the best, both Kondo-sans and my products should definitely be on your shortlist.
This requires Mr. Kondo to stop wasting his time slandering and back stabbing ANUK and strictly concentrate on spending his time promoting his new products instead, which is more fun, more profitable and more positive anyway!

At the end of the day it is worth remembering that the treasure does not belong to the one who says he knows where it is buried, but to the one who invests in looking for it and as a result eventually finds it.

A simple truth, this particularly applies to anyone who claims that I usurped their “idea” of the over sampling free digital filter less DAC, as Justin Benn claims in his follow-up to Kondo-sans posting. This practice has, for your information, been around since the very first CD-players in 1982, so anyone who thinks this was their idea will have had to have been up mighty early, another severe case of sour grapes if you pardon my saying so.

The first Sony 16Bit machines used no over sampling or digital filters with a brick wall analogue filter, it sounded terrible. The novelty of our idea is to configure the analogue filter such that it does as little damage to the signal as possible.

I welcome debate on this and other matters.

Peter Qvortrup
Audio Note UK Ltd
18.01.2000
(thread at http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=36887&highlight=Peter+Qvortrup&r=&session=)

Incidentally the new Dacs use no filters at all.

RGA

10-05-2005, 06:10 PM

RGA Deleted

Florian

10-06-2005, 04:24 AM

Jimmy C

10-06-2005, 05:05 AM

bothered to provide all that info, I actually read it. As a result, I didn't have time to go to work today :^)

He sounds a bit bitter, eh? Provided there aren't two or three sides to the story, I suppose I would be put off as well.

It seems Japan products are even harder to find than U.K... I guess if you're spending the big bucks, you would have to seek THEM out. Not even sure they are sold here.

JohnMichael

10-06-2005, 09:54 AM

Just out of interest my friend, do you use a writing/speaking software? I mean, i type bloddy fast already but you write books in here. We should do a word count overall on all post! :p As far as the AN thing goes, i am not saying a word.

Cheers

Flo

I agree about the length. Maybe I have ADD or I am not that interested in the continuing commercials for AN but I can not read the entire thing. Nothing personal RGA.

GMichael

10-06-2005, 09:56 AM

I agree about the length. Maybe I have ADD or I am not that interested in the continuing commercials for AN but I can not read the entire thing. Nothing personal RGA.

You have to admit, he's very thorough.

Florian

10-06-2005, 12:49 PM

Yeah, but its too long and quite repetative i can't read all of that either. Nothing personal either.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-06-2005, 12:55 PM

You have to admit, he's very thorough.

I would call it blathering.

Sir Terrence the Terrible

10-06-2005, 03:13 PM

I would call it blathering.

LOL, he is passionate about his choice of components. I respect him for that. But I understand your sentiments. LOLOL

RGA

10-06-2005, 03:17 PM

RGA Deleted

Florian

10-06-2005, 04:12 PM

As someone noted to me -- Audio Note is a different kind of company to most in that -- No one SELLS Audio Note -- People BUY it. Which is why Peter and Kondo for that matter do very very well without any real NEED to advertise.
They do advertise sometimes but most of their stuff is stupidly expensive (like Apogee, Genesis, Avalon) that the people who seek these kinds of components know where to look. I spend 8Grand on a speaker without even seriously listening to it. I heard a tune for 5 minutes and knew that i would one day own the speaker. Well, i don't own that model but one 3 times the size now :cool:

Geoffcin

10-06-2005, 04:27 PM

This was all in a thread about AN and thus would have only been of interest to people inquiring about Audio Note products --- which is why if you're not interested why read.

How many threads have been accosted by your Audio Note drivel....uncounted.

Florian

10-06-2005, 04:40 PM

You could search the sql database for entrys with more than 5 times the word AudioNote and see how many where started by RGA to get the results :p

Geoffcin

10-06-2005, 04:43 PM

You could search the sql database for entrys with more than 5 times the word AudioNote and see how many where started by RGA to get the results :p

But then my computer would explode. Perhaps there's an AN antivirus software?

Florian

10-06-2005, 04:49 PM

But then my computer would explode. Perhaps there's an AN antivirus software?
HAHA, thats funny! :cool: You could write a script that will chnage the word Audionote to a blank or replace it with a picture.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-06-2005, 04:55 PM

HAHA, thats funny! :cool: You could write a script that will chnage the word Audionote to a blank or replace it with a picture.

-Flo

Perhaps we can change all Audio Note references to;

http://www.wavcentral.com/sounds/movies/jurassic/jurass06.mp3

RGA

10-06-2005, 05:19 PM

RGA Deleted

Florian

10-06-2005, 05:34 PM

At least Audio Note is currently making NEW production speakers - uunlike some other recommendations by some other posters.
Who cares, there are companys that build 25 year old speakers and still hold the world reference titles. There are speakers even less known than AN and to my ears are better. I recommend what i like and heard. The trouble that some users see know (after i left) is that your basic recomendation is always AN :cool: And the endless writing.

You seem to have the same trouble of accepting that some people dont give a rats ass about AN then i have accepting that someone can talk trash about planar speakers.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-06-2005, 05:37 PM

Ohh you mean when someone says " please recommend a speaker that works close to walls and goes for ~$2k then people like you dump on me for making a suggestions?

As a moderator you should know that this is a place where people ask for advice -- don't like my advice don't take it.

The tiotle of this thread was "Where's RGA? Audio Note Japan..."

Not "where is Geoffcin" and why is he even posting to this thread. Obviously you cared enough to see what was happening in this thread -- as are many judging by the numbers of views. At least Audio Note is currently making NEW production speakers - uunlike some other recommendations by some other posters.

People like me don't dump. We hold it in until the right thread comes along....like this one!

People ask for advice here? No kidding! To bad this thread got hijacked. Oh well, at least it didn't get hijacked by Audio Note inanity for once.

Yes, Geoffcin is a caring guy, why else would I post to this thread? As the hit count increases I am sure that people are really interested to see how much more I can care.
I'm sorry to have to let them all down, as I don't care that much anymore.

RGA

10-06-2005, 05:45 PM

RGA Deleted

RGA

10-06-2005, 05:48 PM

RGA Deleted

Florian

10-06-2005, 05:50 PM

world reference titles

What the hell are you talking about -- WHO calls what speakers this. You're the ONLY person that calls these world reference -- most people I know who've heard them gee sure as hell didn't want them.
I'll think about AN (speakers) once they reach the realm of Genesis, Alon, Apogee, Odeon, MG20.1, Avalon and some others :D

Mr. Corey Greenberg
Mr Robert Harley
Martin Colloms, Ken Kessler(owns 2) & John Atkinson
ANTHONY H. CORDESMAN

to name a few. All of which have systems in a higher realm than those who review a mdf box with a 2000$ amp :cool:

Florian

10-06-2005, 05:52 PM

Ahh well I understand if I owned the Mag 3.6 and the HCA I would be bitter too that I bought what magazines told me too. One day.
Your funny! Those Maggies beat the living crap out of your AudioNote in every single regard. Why don't you see that most people on this site do not care for AN?

Never mind, i am gettig stressed again. Someday your ears may open :D

RGA

10-06-2005, 06:03 PM

RGA Deleted

Florian

10-06-2005, 06:21 PM

Mr. Corey Greenberg Mr Robert Harley Martin Colloms, Ken Kessler(owns 2) & John Atkinson ANTHONY H. CORDESMAN Okay show me where they say your speaker is world reference title holder -- see there can only be one. And thanks I've heard the 3.6 -- please. John Atkinson loves crappy B&W 705's so you won't get much mileage posting his views -- if he can be so wrong about that piece of unmitigated caca then what makes you think he'd be right about anything else -- After all YOU hate B&W.

I am sorry, but your a tad strange. How can you say that because he reviewed a 700$ speaker from B&W and gave it a rating you do not agree on that he is not qualityfied to review a system costing 20 times that much. I bet if i look at the AN reviews that the people reviewd **** speakers well too, which would in return make all your AN reviews absolutly worthless.

Here are some quotes for you. It doesnt matter to me what you think, because i know the truth and pretty much everyone on this site agrees at least on one thing. You and your AN advertisings are getting tired, same as me.

This is turning into the same old BS threads as always. But i have one advantage, the systems i recomend are the known best systems along with others but they surely are not a AN.

The Apogee Diva is a superb speaker system. Like the Infinity IRS Series V and Duntech Sovereign 2001, it is a demonstration that the rich really are different from you and me. They can afford one hell of a lot better speakers!
Nevertheless, the Apogee Divas are currently my personal best.
The search is over. Congratulations, Apogee! As far as I'm concerned, the Diva is a clear-cut Class A component. The vacancy in this prestigious position of the Recommended Components listing for loudspeakers has been too conspicuous too long. I hope that the guiding forces at Stereophile see it my way and, as Aretha Franklin - another Diva-would sing, "second this emotion."
"The Best Sound at the Show: a group of one I've saved the best for last. Because while there were several really fine-sounding rooms at the Chicago CES, one speaker stood out so far away from the rest of the pack that it redefined my expectations of what can be achieved in the art of sound reproduction. I've heard great-sounding systems and I've heard GREAT-sounding systems, but I've never heard anything even 'remotely' as good as the demonstration of the new $60,000 Apogee Grand speaker system. Not even close.
The Grand is, in my opinion, a stunning breakthrough in loudspeaker design. Even in a less than optimum listening position, the beauty and majesty of this remarkable loudspeaker were unmistakable. Driven by eight Krell MDA-300s, Krell MD-1 transport, and Krell SBP-64x, the Grand produced the best recorded sound I've ever experienced.
But, no one can ignore the effort required, the 53500 price tag, the difficulty in getting a good dealer demonstration, the room requirements, and the possible need for new amplifiers. The Scintillas really do push the state of the art!
The Apogee Scintilla is the Ferrari Testarossa of loudspeakers: I'm sure that one day I shall own both.
Once AN compares to these, we can talk. :cool:

http://www.atpm.com/10.04/images/ss-genesis.gifhttp://www.audiocamp.net/freedata/sangwon/sangwon6/20041202_142411_IjPk.jpghttp://www.calvadoshof.com/Audio/KRELL/Dago20.JPGhttp://ecoustics.audioreview.com/Channels/AudioReview/images/products/product_120061.jpghttp://www.magnepancenter.de/pix/idee_1.gif

Florian

10-06-2005, 06:36 PM

You know what i really want? I want to see a picture of your setup! You talk soo much and write soo much, i want to see the setup. I have pictures of all my setups and owned tons of equipment. I want to see if you actually have something interesting. Please post a picture of your setup!

-Flo

RGA

10-06-2005, 09:28 PM

Flo you're such a ****ing putz

You list a bunch of fan quotes big deal -- If you ever went to school and had any kind of clue -- you quote and then post who said what from which publication and WHEN - or provide a direct link to where you got it from.

Those quiotes could be from you on another forum from one of your bum buddies,

Another snot nose kid who has more money than brains.

You don't even know which Apogee is considered by those famous reviewers as being the best ones -- the one that has the HIGHEST rating is the Duetta Sig original sig not moded by the group that saw the sucker overpay for scintillas -- The Duetta you claim is worst -- better let Martin Colloms and the crew at Stereophile in on that as THEY are the ones who say it is best --

And agaisnt the J not even the E the Apogee Duetta is completely blown to ****. I could have bought the Apogees years ago, but hell we don;t even need to get into Audio Note, apogee is pounded by the likes of Energy Veritas and PMC and most any reasonably competant boxed speaker -- Panels are severely severely compromised designs -- they are cheap to make and look good and yet what a surprise nobody wants them except the minority suckers who buy endless upgrade mill audio rags.

Apogee -- yeah so many really wanted them and thought they were good -- the dealer who did sell them called them expensive Bang and Olluffosns - they dumped the lline as nobody liked them and the ones they sold had to be repaired due to horrible quality ribbons that failed in ridiculous numbers.

I notice that in NONE of your pictures there is any interest in music being shown -- which is typical of audiophools buying machines over music.

Florian

10-07-2005, 03:04 AM

Oh looks like i stepped on a toe :cool:
Don't worry i forgive you. Those are all quotes from the Profs. in the industry and from the ones i mentioned. The people don't own these systems (money).

Too bad noone compares AN to the best, but then again why would they.

Have a good one.

PS: Where is the pic of your system?

PAT.P

10-07-2005, 05:27 AM

Florian

10-07-2005, 05:37 AM

I could see Flo and RGA are at it again.You shure your not brother?
Na, i am cool. Who cares, noone on here buys that AudioNote stuff anyways.

-Flo

JohnMichael

10-07-2005, 07:16 AM

RGA, I have to ask this question. If the head of AN asked you to drink a cup of kool-aid out of the communal tub would you?

GMichael

10-07-2005, 07:25 AM

RGA, I have to ask this question. If the head of AN asked you to drink a cup of kool-aid out of the communal tub would you?

OH, YUCK!!

JohnMichael

10-07-2005, 07:38 AM

OH, YUCK!!

Sorry but the preaching of RGA about AN seemed to have a cult-like fervor. It just brought back thoughts of Jonestown.

SlumpBuster

10-07-2005, 09:36 AM

RGA

10-07-2005, 04:26 PM

Wow! Nice pile on onto RGA! Does anyone just get to join in or is it invite only? :D
I just think an argument over who has the better stereo doesn't really look like a slugfest slobberknocker, so much as it looks like a girly slap fight.

Two points to make though. 1. Am I the only one who has noticed that the post RGA made that everyone is giving him crap about was a cut and paste? He wasn't that verbose, at least not on this occasion.

2. RGA has previously posted pics of his system. And not only is it not is his parent's basement, but I think it is a nice system and would personally prefer it over Flo's system if I had to pick one without hearing it. As the case may be. As my Aunt Tilly always said, "If it ain't vinyl, it ain't audiophile." :D

Just my .02.

Sorry this is going to be long as well and it's to you but more-so to the others

I answered what i thought was the question about AN J and AN UK -- Try and let the guy who owns it answer it -- thus copy and paste what he said. I have not posted a lot of AN content for months unless I saw a direct request for information or open ended question like suggest a TUBED Dac or suggest a speaker that goes in a corner. Geofcin let's the one only Apogee recommendations of his buddy Florian go because Geofcin is in the mire of panel lore with him. Even though Flo recommends Apogee every post or brings them up constantly that goes unmentioned. And folks I may often recommend AN and consistantly but at least they're bloody well in Business and didn't tank when after paying off a few reviewers got too expensive. None of those quotes are from any of those reviewers -- and a quote out of context is less usefull than the entire review.

As one knows Martin Colloms has several complaints abiout the upper midrange and lower treble of the Scintilla...yes he very much liked the speakers and in fact they may be wonfderful speakers -- but if YOU or ME are put off mostly by problems in the upper midrange and lower treble as good as they may be at EVERYTHING else they will annoy you. For me treble and upper midrange is the exact spot that I don't want problems or spikes -- i'd far rather a speaker like the Reference 3a MM De Capo which may have FOUR other problems or weakness in other areas but get that range right or at least go the other way and subdue it a tad.

I'm not saying either is the absolute RIGHT way to go for all people -- I'm saying it's the right way for ME to go and if you hear it like me then chances are you'll agree. That;s the key if you are ever going to take a critic of audio or a critic of film or anything else -- you have to be on the same page.

Steven Rochlin of enjoythemusic.com is probably someone that I would go to a show with and hear most stuff maybe more than 80% the same way based off the speakers he owns and loves - the fact that he's on more or less the same page for analog front ends, sources and Tube amplification.

I've changed my set-up quite dramatically since that last picture and sent it to Triode and company and they may add it to their customer system pictures. I certainly won;t post them at the request of people I have no respect for or who have no interest in music.

This is not an arguement over which is best -- if people want to cow tow to Florian's views that Apogee is the world Reference speaker becauswe HE says so then you are all very much entitled to believe everything he says. In a quiet moment you will remember that I say go listen to the stuff yourself and make decisions based on that -- not I have a $140,000.00 system and therefore I can hear better than you am smarter than you and know more about the reproductrion of music than you. I may overly tout the brand and that is largely because they are a smaller brand that I'd like to see people "give a shot to" rather than continually just noticing the big name because they have very deep pockets for marketing. By all means you may still like the others -- that;s the difference what's so horrendously evil about saying "I suggest you listen to the AN ____ I liked it better than A, B and C and it's worth your time to listen."

I have had 12 people from this forum take my advice and 10 have bought AN systems 1 intends to and the other has not got back to me. I know of one who bought had speakers for a while and decided to go with something else -- but still liked them -- just not his ultimate cup of tea. Well what a surprise no one is going to agree on everything.

Other people have checked out Skylan Stands and have liked those, other people have inquired about the NAD table and I think I try to be truthful about the weaknesses of what I have and will tell you that you can do better for less than the NAD 533. I'm not as blinded as Florian that because I own it is the world's reference (no pro reviewer has said that about anything -- though they sometimes SEEM to say it) Gee Martin Colloms said that the new AN UK Ongaku can be viewed in the running as world's best despite a rather vague review that sure would not leave the reader with the impression he really loved it. It's just so unwise to take what they say as gospel -- they provide some insights sometimes and they can give you information that may be useful.

And I agree with you on Vinyl. And my plug here for AN is that their owner listens to music live music and recorded music with the largest personal collection of music that was at last count on the 70,000.00 LP's and CDs and is a founder member of the MasterPrize -- they care about music -- that doesn't make them better or worse necessarily but you know that he listens to music on the stuff he builds and he loves music over a very wide number of genres. And you can't know for sure that that is the case with many. Even here one may deem it unnecessary as to whether they like music but in the world of audio with all of it's inherent compromises - stereo system's are just as much about the ART of alleviating the compromises that reach your ears as it is about the design.

As I noted there is no music in any of Flo's pics because his love is clearly with the gadget and the "keeping up with Jonses" than it is about music reproduction.

No one needs Apogee or Audio Note or any of these expensive brands to enjoy music on and the people who tell you you do to enjoy music on are people you should not be trusting. Unlike Florian when someone has a $1,000.00 budget I may recommend a $600.00 speaker from AN and say a Jolida amp or a Project table and Rotel Amp. Flo just says you're a waste of time because you're budget limits you from being worthy of breathing the same air as the self-appointed holy one of Audiophilia. And usually I have several alternate suggestions to go to. I suggest my FIRST choice - it is irresponsible for me not to. Once that's been taken off the table for whatever reason - no dealers, not interested then I give suggestion 2, 3 and 4. Also from companies that are still in business.

SlumpBuster

10-07-2005, 08:27 PM

Yeah, sarcasm just doesn't translate well in forums. When I talked about the "piling on" I wasn't complimenting them. To the contrary. Original poster asked a question directly to you and you responded. Regardless of the length or content it is unfair for others to criticize the way they have. Some of the critics have suggested you are a cheerleader for AN. Duh, this is hobby about what we like. Similarly, I cheerlead Paradigm and Music Hall. Conversely, I bag on expensive wiring and snake oil, but am a sucker for turntable tweaks. We come here to the forum to talk about it, our like and dislikes. Often, at least in my case, because none of my family or friends give a sh@t about anything more than HTiB.

Some critics have chided you for being verbose, but don't notice that you were cutting and pasting an article responsive to the original posting. If you are verbose, then they are inattentive. Plus you were responding to a thread with a title that contained your name. Hell, on alot of gamer forums, its not even allowed to post a title with someones name. Some critics have demanded pictures of your system to see if it is up to snuff. Really? Does the discussion really devolve to that basic of a level. "See, look at the picture! I told you mine was so big it drags on the ground." Because if thats how we're gonna roll, then we can post pictures of our dedicated HTs, plus cars, houses, boats, summer cottages, and advanced degrees and then we can bust out with the tape measure and see whats what.

My point is that I come here to hear people talk about equipment and music. This should be diversionary. Not some pissing contest. Argumentative, fine. Debate, fine. Disagreement, fine. That can all be tempered with passion and enjoyment for good music and reproduction, as I find your posts often to be. Other people seem to be interested in a Big D contest. I stopped having those in the fifth grade, because it turns out that no matter who wins, its still just to guys showing eachother their packages.

RGA

10-07-2005, 09:16 PM

Well Slump Buster You're post is something we can all learn from hopefully -- and of course it boils down to that you are correct.

Florian

10-08-2005, 01:03 AM

2. RGA has previously posted pics of his system. And not only is it not is his parent's basement, but I think it is a nice system and would personally prefer it over Flo's system if I had to pick one without hearing it. As the case may be. As my Aunt Tilly always said, "If it ain't vinyl, it ain't audiophile." :D

Just my .02. Well i could have gotten my own place with no dedicated room and a stereo like RGA. But i chose quality and have a dedicated music room. This room is optimized for the room acoustics, and is purely for the DIVA's. I have a 40A line to this room with no power fluctuations and solid cement walls (notice the non-wood walls?). To even compare equipment that RGA owns to equipment that i own and the resulting sound is a audiophile sinn, with TT or no TT. I will get to the holy grail with one side first and then the other, instead of average junk everywhere in the chain. As to his posts, i don't read them, they are just like i always said. Too long and "cut and paste" from his favoriete fanboys. But you have to ignore the press, which is why you dont have to read any reviews of AudioNote equipment in the first place. Ah, why am i even writing?! The hardcore audiophiles never respond to his threads anyways, there are some on thi site and a few in the picture gallery and they can apreciate a true nirvana system and i can apreciate theirs. RGA can have the floor, in the end there is only 1 person with AN here, which shows that the people have chosen what they like best.

Have a good one

-Flo

PS: I think this has to do with my auditioning of the AudioNote J in NC when i was still in the US. I wrote about it a few month back that i thought the speaker sounded like garbage to my ears. This was met by endless reviews, posts and comments from RGA about the room, electronics etc... I should point out the blind recomendation from RGA and his views of the speakers that he calls planars and their fault. He throws Martin Logan, Quad, Audiostatic, Soundlab, Stax, Apogee, Magnepan etc.. all in one bowl! And the winner from his general recomendation are always the AudioNote speakers. I dont even recommend planars anymore, i just comment on the speaker a person has chosen and help him get the most out of it.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 03:40 AM

PS: I think this has to do with my auditioning of the AudioNote J in NC when i was still in the US. I wrote about it a few month back that i thought the speaker sounded like garbage to my ears. This was met by endless reviews, posts and comments from RGA about the room, electronics etc.

Can you post a link to your review, I'ld love to read it.

Florian

10-08-2005, 03:46 AM

Thats a good question Geof. It was in one of RGA's threads where i commented on it. I never started a post as a dedicated reviewn since i knew it would unleash hell. I didnt like the colored and boomy sound. You know what i mean, you have 3.6 Maggies. They dont have box resonances, and you can hear them in boxes. The AudioNotes have a special fat magic in the midband just like the B&W's only smoother. But the highs are round and fall off and the bass is simply not as fine tuned and fast as the Maggie bass. The Maggies portray a big real image size and the AudioNotes sound small and dark by comparison with the music coming from the box. I just dont get it, how he can like it.

-Flo

gonefishin

10-08-2005, 09:44 AM

Hey I think I figured out a solution. I was going to suggest that Flo and RGA both add each other to their ignore list...to finally put an end to the constant childish bickering and B.S. claims and snake oil ads with half truths from both of them.

Then I figured I'd add them both to my ignore list.

haha

bye bye (at least fer a while...hopefully you two will grow up some day! Are you sure your not brothers?)

all the best,
dan

Florian

10-08-2005, 09:53 AM

That would be wonderfull! Where can i find that option?
Just a little question tough, what reviews of the ones i posted quotes from do you call BS?

Curious

.-Flo

PS: I dont advertise, there is no point in advertising. The company is dead for 7 years!

thepogue

10-08-2005, 12:17 PM

CA-BOOM roflmao

http://www.martinlogan.com/prodigy_speaker.html#

so darn good they stoped makin 'em!!

I got the last set....in my vault...and 'dare mine.....ALLL MINE HAR HAR HAR

(falls to floor)

Pogue

Florian

10-08-2005, 12:25 PM

It got replaced by the Summit i think. I heard it in Munich, was quite a good speaker. Subwoofer integration is getting better as time goes on.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:26 PM

thepogue

10-08-2005, 12:30 PM

they broke the mold on the Prodigy's cuz they we're afraid they would take over the world.....basically the same reason they sent all the whiskey to Ireland...fear me lady...pure fear... ;)

Pogue

RGA

10-08-2005, 12:30 PM

All of your quotes are B.S.

Gee how many people on this forum own apogees? Most were smart enough to sell them to some other suckers. Or they just fell apart.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:34 PM

It got replaced by the Summit i think. I heard it in Munich, was quite a good speaker. Subwoofer integration is getting better as time goes on.

-Flo

Is very room and setup dependant. Even the small Apogees with cone speaker woofer were, when set up correctly, quite stunning. Truly nothing beats a ribbon, or planar sheet for midrange, and treble responce.

Florian

10-08-2005, 12:36 PM

All of your quotes are B.S.

Gee how many people on this forum own apogees? Most were smart enough to sell them to some other suckers. Or they just fell apart.
You stupid SOB, you have absolutly no ****ing clue whatsoever. The reason the 3200 Apogee users in our club don't post on this site is because morons like you have no understanding of speakers at all and quote stupid bull**** from the partners in buisiness.
**** you, and your stupid bull**** advertising for a overprized ****box made out of cartboard. How many on here on planar systems and how many own **** cartboard speakers?

I quote from the Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice, Audiophiles, HI-FI News and Hifi Exclusive.

I am through with you, you are the dumbest advertising ****er on this site. Good thing people don't buy that ****.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:37 PM

they broke the mold on the Prodigy's cuz they we're afraid they would take over the world.....basically the same reason they sent all the whiskey to Ireland...fear me lady...pure fear... ;)

Pogue

I'm going to pour myself some 15 YO Balvenie. See what you made me do!

thepogue

10-08-2005, 12:37 PM

Florian

10-08-2005, 12:38 PM

Is very room and setup dependant. Even the small Apogees with cone speaker woofer were, when set up correctly, quite stunning. Truly nothing beats a ribbon, or planar sheet for midrange, and treble responce.
I agree 100%.

I am sick of the stupid Audio Note advertising.

Planar speakers rule and there are good boxes, but i am sick of this moron.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:43 PM

now if I can ever get a decent amp and pre wiff these "killers" the world will be mine!!

dont get me wrong for the price I really love the triple nickles....but if I'm going to rule the planet someday...I'll need to do it in style...until then a friend of mine is going to do some mod's in the amps...so we'll see..

Pogue

Don't put that 555 down. A friend of mine had a big (800wpc) Classe, and a pure "A" Krell. He also keeps a 555 on hand as a backup. We moved the 555 into the Classe 401's place and it still sounded mighty good. Bigtime over-achiever that amp is...

Florian

10-08-2005, 12:45 PM

Yes Adcom is quite good. My friend drives his 1ohm Apogee Scintilla with a 565, can't get too much more stable then that.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:45 PM

You stupid SOB, you have absolutly no ****ing clue whatsoever. The reason the 3200 Apogee users in our club don't post on this site is because morons like you have no understanding of speakers at all and quote stupid bull**** from the partners in buisiness.
**** you, and your stupid bull**** advertising for a overprized ****box made out of cartboard. How many on here on planar systems and how many own **** cartboard speakers?

I quote from the Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice, Audiophiles, HI-FI News and Hifi Exclusive.

I am through with you, you are the dumbest advertising ****er on this site. Good thing people don't buy that ****.

-Flo

I've never seen as many blocked out words in one post! George Carlin would be proud.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 12:53 PM

now if I can ever get a decent amp and pre wiff these "killers" the world will be mine!!

dont get me wrong for the price I really love the triple nickles....but if I'm going to rule the planet someday...I'll need to do it in style...until then a friend of mine is going to do some mod's in the amps...so we'll see..

Pogue

Let the drooling begin!

http://cgi.ebay.com/MARTIN-LOGAN-STATEMENT-E2-STORE-DEMONSTRATOR-WARRANTY_W0QQitemZ5814956638QQcategoryZ32861QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem

Florian

10-08-2005, 12:58 PM

Same as on www.audiogon.com (http://www.audiogon.com)

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1131983570

RGA

10-08-2005, 01:10 PM

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/nycesarticle.htm

From an ex Quad stacked 57 owner http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=111315&review=1

From an ex Apogee Scintilla owner who liked them so much he became the Distributor. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=74993&review=1

From the owner of the best Apogee speakers (as rated by Stereophile magazine) http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SILVER.html

Now if you have an actual link to a major review that says "Apogee is the world Reference loudspeaker maker and every other speaker by anyone is worse" I'd be happy to read it and then use it as toilet paper. None of the above is saying any such thing and neither am I. They are an option just as there are many other options that people can enjoy.

Your lame rant is that only panels are any good -- Prove it. 3200 versus the 3 million who don;t own panels who heard panels.

Hell even PatD who owns one of the all time classic Quad panels 63 and he bought *shudder* the PSB Stratus Mini a relatively inexpensive boxed standmount speaker.

It is not which is better -- what you don;t seem to get is that it is subjective -- people will like what they like and there is no World Reference.

RGA

10-08-2005, 01:17 PM

yeah the dealer of the statement could not convince anyone of their sound and could not find any suckers to spend $100,000.00 so now the basically brand new demos they're asking a mere 40% of retail and they won't even get that for them either.

A friend of mine has the Odyssey -- which is a very nice speaker - overpriced IMO but very nice nevertheless.

thepogue

10-08-2005, 01:19 PM

While he's ruling....don't he?

;) Pogue

Let the drooling begin!

http://cgi.ebay.com/MARTIN-LOGAN-STATEMENT-E2-STORE-DEMONSTRATOR-WARRANTY_W0QQitemZ5814956638QQcategoryZ32861QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem

thepogue

10-08-2005, 01:23 PM

ALL the SOB's are overpriced....used me friend...U-S-E-D!!!

Only two item I don't buy used...beer and toilet paper...and when I was younger...condoms...now it's just the two...(not that I now buy used condoms...but...well...you know...no need ;))

Pogue

yeah the dealer of the statement could not convince anyone of their sound and could not find any suckers to spend $100,000.00 so now the basically brand new demos they're asking a mere 40% of retail and they won't even get that for them either.

A friend of mine has the Odyssey -- which is a very nice speaker - overpriced IMO but very nice nevertheless.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 01:38 PM

While he's ruling....don't he?

;) Pogue

On the planet. Of course there's a little box speaker with one 8" woofer that might make it say uncle....NOT!

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:03 PM

I quoted from the DIVA and Scintilla reviews. And one more thing you moron, my 150lbs speaker per side with its STEEL frame has magnets that are more heavier than your **** box.

And for starters read this too.....damn idiot.


Mr. Corey Greenberg wrote about it in Stereophile vol. 14 no. 8, page 87

"The Best Sound at the Show: a group of one I've saved the best for last. Because while there were several really fine-sounding rooms at the Chicago CES, one speaker stood out so far away from the rest of the pack that it redefined my expectations of what can be achieved in the art of sound reproduction. I've heard great-sounding systems and I've heard GREAT-sounding systems, but I've never heard anything even 'remotely' as good as the demonstration of the new $60,000 Apogee Grand speaker system. Not even close. Driven by a Krell digital front end and preamp, the longest runs of Magnan wire I've ever seen, and $40,000 worth of Krell amplification, the big Grands, which combine a three-way ribbon with a dynamic subwoofer, were simply awe-inspiring. With effortless dynamics, unequalled coherence throughout the midrange, bass definition heretofore unheard by me anywhere outside of live music, highs as free of coloration as the real thing, the Grand demonstration was, for me, the highest expression of music reproduction I've yet heard. I know all of this sounds like typical over-the-top reviewer gush, but I'm not alone; the Grand reduced a room full of the cream of high-end reviewing crop, men who've seen it all and heard it thrice, to a gaggle of wildly jabbering geese. To expect a chance to review these speakers is to be hallucinating like a mofo, but I can assure you that when Stereophile gets a pair of the Grands to review, I'm packing a sack full of pork ribs, slapping on my leathers, and pointing my motorcycle toward the Mexican border".

Mr Robert Harley from the same issue of Stereophile (page 99):

"Now that we're finished with new digital products, I'd like to briefly list what I thought was good sound at the show. I'll start with the Apogee Grand loudspeaker. The Grand is, in my opinion, a stunning breakthrough in loudspeaker design. Even in a less than optimum listening position, the beauty and majesty of this remarkable loudspeaker were unmistakable. Driven by eight Krell MDA-300s, Krell MD-1 transport, and Krell SBP-64x, the Grand produced the best recorded sound I've ever experienced. It was transcendental - the kind of sound you'd mortgage your house for. I'd love to hear it with a topnotch analog front end. The sobering fact, however, is that the Grand coss between $45,000 and $60,000, depending on finish, and requires a fairly large room. I hope that the technological breakthrough that made the Grand possible will find their way into a smaller and less expensive product - I'll be in the first line.
Bravo, Apogee!"

<CENTER> </CENTER>

Read all of these and shut the hell up!

Apogee Mini Grand Hi-Fi-news July 1994 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/apogee_mini_grand_hifi_news_july94.pdf) -

Scintilla review - Hifi Exclusiv Jan 1987 - The Speaker DIVA (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/scintilla_hifi_exclusiv_speaker_diva.htm)

A search for the ultimate speaker - Best of Audio (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/a_search_for_the_ultimate_speaker_bestofaudio.htm)

Caliper Signature Hi-Fi News December 1989 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/caliper_sig_hifinews_dec1989.htm)

Caliper review Hi-Fi Choice July 1988 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/caliper_hifichoice_july1988.htm)

Caliper signature review Hi-Fi Answers September 1989 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/caliper_sig_hifianswers_sep1989.htm)

Centaur Minor Stereophile (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/Centaur_Minor_Stereophile.pdf) -

Centaur Major Stereophile (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/Centaur_Major_Stereophile.pdf) -

Centaur review Audiophile (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/centaur_audiophile.htm)

Centaurus Major & Minor review Hi-Fi News July 1991 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/centaur_major_minor_hifinews_july1991.htm)

DAX-Diva review Stereophile August 1990 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/dax_diva_stereophile_aug1990.htm)

Dax1 review Hi-Fi-News August 1989 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/dax1_review_hifinews_august1989.htm)

Diva review Hi-Fi News June 1988 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/diva_hifinews_june1988.htm)

Diva Stereophile review August 1988 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/diva_stereophile_august1988.htm)

Diva The Absolute Sound Nov-Dec 1988 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/diva_theabsoutesound_novdec1988.htm)

Duetta review Hi-Fi Answers (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/duetta_hifianswers.htm)

Duetta sig review Hi-Fi Choice July 1989 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/duetta_sig_hifichoice_july1989.htm)

Duetta sig review Hi-Fi News December 1988 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/duetta_sig_hifinews_dec1988.htm)

Scintilla Audio Article December 1985 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/scintilla_audio_dec1985.htm)

Scintilla Hi-Fi Choice review 1987 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/scintilla_hifichoice_1987.htm)

Scintilla Stereophile review (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/scintilla_stereophile.htm)

The Scintillating Apogee - Hi-Fi News September 1985 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/scintillating_apogee_hifinews_sep1985.htm)

Slant 6 review from Stereophile (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/slant6_stereophile.htm)

Stage Audiophile July 1990 review (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/stage_audiophile_july1990.htm)

Stage Hi-Fi-News March 1990 (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/stage_hifinews_march1990.htm)

Stage Stereophile review (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/stage_stereophile_review.htm)

Studio Grand review (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/studiogrand_review_stereophile.htm)

The flat response from Stereophile - includes Duetta II (http://www.apogeespeakers.info/reviews/the_flat_response_stereophile_review.htm)

http://www.apogeeclub.de/idiot.JPG

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:10 PM

<TABLE borderColor=#0000ff height=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=551 align=center border=0 valign="middle"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=300 height=1 rowSpan=5>http://www.apogeespeakers.info/images/ultimate_speakers.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width=240 height=159>
A SEARCH FOR THE ULTIMATE SPEAKER

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=240 height=20>____________

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=240 height=38></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=240 height=22>
ANTHONY H. CORDESMAN

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=240 height=39>____________

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=540 colSpan=2 height=128>Let's suppose - just for a moment-that when you were a kid some editor called and offered to fly you to New York to spend a few days at F.A.O. Schwarz and write up a review on the world's best toys. Well, that never quite happened to me when I was a kid, but Audio's Editor recently asked me to do something even better: To come to New York and spend several days at two top high-end dealers and review some of the world's best speakers. It isn't often that an editor is foolish enough to give this kind of assignment, and I suspect that some day I'll have to pay my debt to society with a comparative listening test of receivers under $200. In the interim, however, I am pleased to report that I had one hell of a lot of fun.

With the help of Mike Kay from Lyric Hi-Fi and Andy Singer of Sound By Singer, I not only got to thoroughly audition and re-audition some superb speakers, I got to calibrate my own reference system against a wide range of additional turntables, CD players, and electronics. In fact, I learned an important philosophical lesson. It isn't he who dies with the most toys who wins, it is he who gets to live longest with them!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

A great speaker integrates its virtues while disguising its inevitable compromises and minor weaknesses.

To get a bit more serious, I also enjoyed this assignment because much of the fun in audio begins with understanding what speakers can and cannot do, and just how important they are to getting a great stereo system. Every hi-fi component is important, but no other component normally has quite so many compromises.

Take bass, for example. After reviewing several hundred speakers, I can still count on my fingers the number that offer deep, realistic, and powerful bass. Most speakers only hint at the bass information present on records and CDs; they can't deliver either the power or the extension. Further, few speakers can make a realistic transition through the mid-bass and into the lower midrange. This is an immensely important area in making reproduced music sound believable and giving a musical performance emotional impact, but most speakers either smear it or depress it. The end result is that everything, from the cello to baritone voice, suffers irreparable damage.

The midrange presents equal problems. No one who only listens to lo-fi or mid-fi speakers can have any idea how lifelike and musical the midrange of a truly great speaker can sound if it is connected to the right electronics. No speaker can equal a live performance, but a great speaker can be amazingly convincing, producing a realistic illusion of being at a live performance. A great speaker can reproduce the kind of midrange that will reinforce your memory of performances by musicians you have heard live, often to the extent of reproducing some of the characteristic sound of the performance hall. Further, it can educate you to most of the performance nuances of musicians you have not hear live. This is particularly true of those few speakers which deliver a detailed and transparent upper midrange fully in balance with the rest of the midrange, rather than rolled of at the top or emphasized to the point of being analytic or hard.

Tweeters long ago advanced to the point where a cheap or mid-fi unit would reproduce frequencies above the rang of human hearing. Few speakers, however, deliver upper highs in a musically natural and balanced form, though many speakers can deliver the top octaves in a way only test instrument can enjoy. Great speakers give you the upper octaves in a musically convincing form fully integrated with the deep and mid-bass.

Most speakers make you acutely conscious of the fact that everything you hear is clearly coming from two boxes or panels with a fixed location, and this consciousness of listening to two fixed points in space imposes itself on everything you hear. The music seems to cluster around each box or panel rather than presenting the illusion of realistic sound stage, with natural width and depth, an realistic placement of voice and instruments. Even if you know nothing about speaker technology, you always know there is something strange going on. Great speakers virtually disappear when you close your eyes, leaving the illusion you really are seated in a listening position that could actually occur in a live performance.

This might be why you will never really understand most of the writing about high-end audio, or how rewarding the difference between a true high-end system and a good mid-fi one is, until you take the time to seriously listen to one of the top speakers with a really good stereo system and a great recording. You also will never know how much you are missing if you rely on the kind of speaker that only exists for mass-marketing purposes. Far too many of the "price-point pet coffins" that pass for speakers really do tend to make all electronics and CD players sound alike. Many low-cost speakers are so colored that nothing which passes through them can avoid sounding like them.

A great speaker clearly and immediately reveals the fact that hi-fi components really do sound different, and that blending these differences into a musically convincing system is what audio is all about. A great speaker integrates all its virtues and disguises its inevitable compromises and minor weaknesses. Like a great wine, you can enjoy its character rather than regret it. With a great speaker, your system is measured by its ability to reproduce music, not by its number of knobs and lights.

INFINITY IRS SERIES V

Virtually every serious audiophile has heard about the Infinity IRS. At least in the U.S., it has been widely accepted as the reference speaker-the speaker which defines the limits of what any design team can accomplish. Its only potential rival has been the Wilson Audio Music Monitor - a virtually hand-built speaker system now in transition to a Mark V version and not currently available for audition.

The Infinity IRS Series V is impressive in terms of appearance, technology, and price. This system is housed in four beautifully styled cabinets with enough high-grade Brazilian rosewood to panel an executive suite. There is a complex electronic crossover unit with numerous adjustments. Each woofer channel has a separate column with built-in servo, amplifiers and twelve 12-inch woofers with graphite cones; the amplifiers are capable of delivering 2,000 watts into a 0.6-ohm load. One woofer in each tower has an internal accelerometer connected to a servo circuit in its amplifier to detect and eliminate low-frequency acoustic distortion before it is reproduced through the system. The high-frequency response of the woofer tower's amplifiers extends to almost 1kHz, but the electronic crossover is limited to a 15 to 70Hz band to ensure full bass power without the listener being conscious of the woofer columns as separate sound sources.

The other unit in each channel has screens of midrange and treble drivers, which are arranged in vertical columns to produce a line source. The wing-like curved pieces on each side reduce diffraction and are filled with sand to reduce resonance. The drivers include 12 electromagnetic induction midrange (EMIM) units and 36 electromagnetic induction treble (EMIT) drivers, 12 of which fire to the rear. The treble drivers use a new magnetic material which strikinglyimproves their performance over previous versions of the IRS. You use the amplifier of your choice for the midrange and treble signals, which are adjustable in level. The crossover frequency for the midrange is 70Hz, and the crossover for the treble is 6kHz.

From a musical point of view, the IRS Series V is a brilliant success; it does all the obvious things superbly.

This combination weighs a total of over 1,500 pounds and costs $45,000. Given the quality involved, and the need to create a dedicated listening room with sufficient room treatment to allow a true full-range speaker to perform at its best, the Infinity IRS Series V will be used in systems that cost $100,000 to $150,000.

Given its size and placement needs, the IRS Series V is obviously designed for private and professional perfectionists. It is not in any conventional sense a status symbol: it can't be parked outside the house or displayed casually at cocktail parties. While audiophiles may envy the owner, casual business acquaintances are more likely to question the owner's sanity. In short, the real issue is music-and how good a speaker can get-and not appearance, technology, and price.

From a musical point of view, the IRS Series V is a brilliant success and does all the obvious things superbly. The bass is awesome in terms of power, extension, and definition. It is a cliché that most records have only limited deep bass. It is also a cliché that is wrong. Records and CDs have a great deal of deep bass; most speakers do not. Speakers usually can't reach low enough to make you feel it, they don't have enough power to reproduce music at live listening levels, and they can't reproduce the entire bass naturally. Therefore, you tend to hear only part of the bass and miss its true musical impact.

The IRS has none of these faults. It delivers the full range of the organ, the full impact of percussion, and every bit of the bass in piano, woodwinds, and strings. Only a few top subwoofers approach the bass performance of the IRS Series V, and I have never heard the bass of these subwoofers integrated even approximately as well into an overall speaker system.

More importantly, the IRS Series V delivers the entire bass without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. Only comparative listening can really tell an audiophile how important this kind of performance is and how badly virtually every speaker on the market fails short in this area. With an IRS Series V, a baritone voice sounds like a live baritone voice. A Bösendorfer is a Bösendorfer. A cello's upper notes are fully balanced by its richness in the bass. A bass guitar is more than a single-note rhythm line. Bass percussion is not an exercise in overemphasis in one aspect of its frequency response and subtraction in another.

I could cite all the usual bass spectaculars, but they are more impressive for their unlistenability as music than for their bass. What really counts is listening to "ordinary" music, such as Stephen Kates' performance of Rachmaninoff's "Sonata for Cello and Piano in G Minor, Op. 19" (Sonic Arts Series 26). The cello's deeper notes float naturally in fullintegration with the rest of the instrument. The close miking of the piano is completely realistic, and the sound board is reproduced with great emotional impact, not simply the initial attack. Alternatively, take the guitar work on Charlie Byrd's performance of the "House of the Rising Sun" from The Artistry of Charlie Byrd (Nimbus/Riverside RLP-9451). This recording is scarcely ideal, but with the Infinity IRS Series V, you hear the limitations of the recording and not those of the speaker. Thus, the musical impact is far more impressive.

The IRS handles the difficult bass lines of Jazz at the Pawn Shop (Proprius CID7778/9) which are recessed or lost on many speakers. It can fully discriminate all the voices and complexities of organ music. At the same time, it can honestly portray the full impact of deep bass in rock and jazz. Cat Stevens and Pink Floyd fans can rediscover virtually their entire record collection, and the deep bass on Dave Grusin's "The Fratelli Chase" (Cinemagic, GRIP Records GRIP 9547) sounds like musical deep bass and not some sort of sound effect.

What is important about the bass of the Infinity IRS Series V is not that you can hear every organ fundamental in "Thus Spake Zarathustra," but rather its ability to create a convincing illusion of live music-and to do so with virtually any kind of music.

This virtue emerges even more clearly in the midrange of the IRS Series V than in the bass. There is no exaggeration in any aspect of its frequency response. The transparency and resolution at every listening level are the state of the art, and this is presented in a musically convincing sound stage.

The near perfection of the midrange shows up electronically in this system's amazing ability to reveal differences in its drive electronics and in cartridges, CD players, preamplifiers, and amplifiers. For example, earlier versions of the Infinity IRS tended to be a bit bright in the upper midrange and to favor the more romantic tube amplifiers. You now can use virtually any top-quality amplifier, and the full virtues of a Mark Levinson No. 20, a Krell Reference amplifier, or an Audio Research M300 will be as clear as those of a Conrad Johnson Premier Five.

Musically, you hear strings as you should hear them, separated to the extent a given recording allows and with their proper mix of bite and sweetness. An oboe is an oboe, not a new woodwind invented by a particular speaker. In fact, it was fascinating to have so many suspicions about the impact of speakers in coloring jazz and chamber music confirmed. In case after case, you could still hear the general recording technique and all its attendant colorations, but instruments emerged as natural in overall timbre in difficult passages where other speakers failed to do something right.

Male voice sounds like male voice, Anyone who really wants to evaluate the music history of an operatic baritone or tenor should listen to this speaker. At a slightly less esoteric level, anyone who has not discovered the quality of the recording and production on Willie Nelson's Stardust (Columbia CK-35305) should listen to "Georgia." No one can call this a difficult piece of music-it is simply a good classic pop recording which sounds good on virtually any system. Nevertheless. the IRS reveals more detail in a more convincing way than any other speaker I've heard to date.

As for female voice, Joan Baez and Judy Collins fans will be greatly impressed by what the IRS can do with a soloist on cleanly recorded pop music. These are voices that have become progressively more difficult to reproduce as the ladies get older, particularly with the more natural recording techniques. The IRS Series V presents the slight edge and occasional sibilance in these singers' voices with all their impact-and without any harshness or exaggeration of the upper midrange.

Classical fans with an interest in voice should listen to Kathleen Battle's superb rendition of Villa-Lobos on Pleasures of Their Company (Angel CDC-47196) and judge for themselves. Even Kate Bush fans will find that her voice has survived the recording process to a degree they may never have previously hoped for, and Madonna's fans can hear the cartoon-like character of America's leading boy toy in all her glory.

Perhaps the most impressive aspect of the IRS Series V's performance is its ability to handle choral music. Massed strings, grand opera, and complex symphonic music are difficult enough; most speakers lose a tremendous amount of the detail with such music. Choral music, regrettably, often degenerates to the point where it is actively unpleasant. There is no interplay of voices, just one large voice which lacks character and is often unintelligible. The IRS Series V not only has the ability to distinguish voices and preserve them to the extent a given recording allows, it floats them in three dimensions as a natural mix of well defined voices. It is particularly impressive with liturgical music where the recording has been done in a cathedral and with full organ or symphonic accompaniment.

No speaker can make up for the fact that such music is impossible to record with full realism. The IRS Series V is, however, the only speaker I have heard which allows you to approach the illusion of sitting in a cathedral and hearing music played in that kind of space rather than from two point sources. In fact, the IRS disappears into such music, and its sound quality makes it far less "visible" than much smaller boxes whose sonic shortcomings make them a constant focus of attention. If you don't believe this, try two tests. First, listen for an hour and see which speaker system you pay more attention to. Second, turn out the lights and listen to a really good recording. See which speaker seems to be replaced by the illusion of a live performance.

When you are listening to the IRS, the climax of Beethoven's Ninth ceases to be a shouting contest, and the sheer mass of Mahler's Eighth almost becomes forgivable (if anyone can forgive the 19th century's rival to Nero for making such a musical spectacle of himself!). What I find truly stunning is the mix of voice and instrument in music such as Byrd's "Missa in Tempore Paschali" (Harmonia Mundi HM 90-5182). This is a beautiful piece of music by any standard, but most speakers veil and homogenize it to some degree, and virtually all spotlight some aspects of the vocal work at the expense of others.One of the iron rules in judging the treble of a speaker is that you should never be conscious of either the uppermidrange or treble notes - or ever struck by their absence. The upper octaves should add life, air, speed, and complexity to music without - making you think about their presence. This combination of. information and- invisibility is true of any live performance of music in any halfway decent hall. It is almost unheard of, however, in audio.

The IRS Series V's sound stage is convincing in a way that no other point-source loudspeaker I have ever heard can equal.

Errors in the recording, front-end, and electronics add their share of sins to the sound, but it is the speaker that is truly guilty if it either rolls the upper octaves off and softens them to make them forgiving or if it provides too much apparent treble. In fact, one of the greatest single sins of high-end audio is an overemphasized, almost "etched" upper midrange and treble that bears no resemblance to live music. It is the great virtue of the IRS Series V that its upper octaves sound like music and not like "stereo."

The limits of the sound stage must remain problematic. Lyric Hi-Fi has specially engineered and treated listening rooms, but I suspect only a listening room designed solely for the IRS could fully explore the limits of its sound-stage reproduction. Good as the listening conditions were at Lyric Hi-Fi, I would have liked to hear the IRS Series V in an even larger room or in one whose acoustic characteristics had been tailored to the speaker. I can say, however, that the IRS is amazingly three-dimensional if you listen to the right music. Those few recordings which use simple and natural miking techniques, such as those on the Accent, Opus, Proprius, Reference Recordings, and Wilson labels, can produce an amazingly realistic sound stage-as can some of the classic RCA and Columbia recordings.

"Three-dimensional" does not necessarily mean accurate. I have never listened to earphones at a recording console in a hall during a live performance and heard the sound stage I hear when I step back and listen to the actual performance. I have never heard any recording where I could do more than recognize the hall where it was performed. I will argue, however, that the sound stage the IRS presents is realistic and convincing in a way no other line- or point-source speaker I have ever heard can equal.

Even the best point-source speakers are always slightly two-dimensional and lacking in depth. They favor simple music or music by a limited number of players. All the other line-source speakers I have heard have presented a sound stage with a slight hole in the middle and/or a slight smear of sonic detail. Most have failed to match the apparent size of the sound stage in the treble and midrange with sufficient bass energy and power to balance the sound stage at the low-frequency extreme. They have either added artificial width to voice and percussion at the expense of other instruments, or have had a relatively narrow listening area in which comparatively small movements of the head or body could change the sound stage. The IRS Series V has a relatively stable sound field in both the near field and the far field. It is a speaker you can listen to with several friends and they will hear what you hear.

As for shortcomings, well, even the best speaker is still far from the ultimate. I would like to be able to vary the amount of mid-bass and the upper midrange energy to suit a given recording. The electronic crossover and adjustments in the rear of the speaker provide far more latitude in establishing "permanent" settings than most systems, but this is a "cost no-object" design, so I'd like a remote control with programmable memory to boot.

I'd also like just a bit more elevation in the upper midrange than the present adjustments allow. The IRS is how just slightly too forgiving. For all the strengths in the soundstage, the IRS also has some weaknesses in this area. It is a bit larger than life with small orchestral and jazz groups; there were times when I would have preferred more of the focus one gets from a point-source speaker.

Most of all, I would like an infinity IRS Series V I didn't have to visit. My main objections to this speaker at this point are the fact that it requires a room that is fully engineered to allow it to perform at its best, and that as wealthy an institution as Audio will not buy sets for each of its reviewers. (Editor's Note: But Tony, you got to listen to it; I didn't. - E.P.)

I can, however, offer hope. There are rumors of a son of IRS several years down the way at a price of only (only!) $15,000. More importantly, Infinity has two smaller descendants of the IRS which should be appearing at high-end dealers about the time you read this review, the four-piece IRS Beta system for around $10,000 and the IRS Gamma at $6,500 per pair. I heard an early version of the Beta at the Summer CES; if the production version is as good, it may well be the IRS for the rest of us.

DUNTECH SOVEREIGN 2001

The Duntech Sovereign 2001 is a more conventional speaker than the Infinity IRS Series V, but only in the sense that it uses more common dome and cone drivers and has but one box per channel. There is nothing conventional about the quality of the engineering involved, and the Duntech provides an excellent demonstration of the fact that cone speakers are still valid rivals of ribbon, electrostatic, and magnetic planar speakers for the title of state of the art.

There also is nothing modest or small about the Sovereign 2001. This is. a speaker system which costs $12,950 to $15,000, depending on one's choice of cabinet finish; it is 74 inches high, 14 inches wide, and 32 inches deep. Its emphasis on depth over width and superb woodwork make it look smaller than it is, but it is big. Each speaker weighs 375 pounds, and the enclosure walls are 1½ inches thick, braced with iron, and divided into separate sealed chambers for the bass and low-bass drivers.

The seven drivers in each speaker are configured to produce a phase-coherent point source. There is a 20-mm dome tweeter in the center, flanked on the top and bottom by 54-mm midrange domes. These, in turn, are flanked by the 177-mm mid-bass drivers, and finally there are two 305-mm woofers at the top and bottom. Each of the drivers is capable of taking peak power levels of 1,000 watts for 10mS. The crossovers use top-quality components, and the crossover frequencies are 300Hz and 2 and 6kHz.

No review can do full justice to the level of detail Duntech provides regarding technical specifications. The back of a Duntech brochure is filled with photographs of test results, of the kind that could tempt an engineer to sell his home computer, and the inside provides a useful list of specifications which is a model for the industry. Even if you have no hope of buying this speaker, the brochure is still a useful introduction to the features to look for in dynamic speaker systems.

It is the music, however, that is the focus of my search for the ultimate speaker, and I found the Duntech to be a fascinating contrast to the Infinity IRS Series V. Like the IRS, the Sovereign produces deep bass that you can physicallyfeel, and it is awesome in terms of power, extension, and definition over the full lower bass range of the organ and percussion instruments.

Power, extension, and definition in the Sovereign 2001 Is bass are awesome, while its midrange can create the proper illusion of live music and stage.

The Duntech does, however, have one slight flaw in the bass. It is not without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. This slightly dries out the sound of baritone voice, the piano, and the cello. Both bass guitar and deep bass percussion produce impact, but not all the richness and naturalness of sound you get with the IRS.

I do not mean for a moment that the Duntech does not provide very good overall bass performance, but I had the chance to do a great deal of comparative listening at Lyric, and the slight lack of mid-bass and lower midrange energy came through on a very wide range of source material. This included the Stephen Kates performance cited earlier, Charlie Byrd's performance of the "House of the Rising Sun," and the bass lines of Jazz at the Pawn Shop. It was particularly apparent with the bass on Dave Grusin's "The Fratelli Chase."

The midrange of the Duntech Sovereign 2001 has the same overall ability to create a convincing illusion of live music as the Infinity IRS. The Duntech, like every speaker, has its own unique mix of transparency and resolution at every listening level, but there is no question that this is a state-of-the-art speaker system. There is, however, a significant difference between the Duntech and the Infinity IRS in the balance of the upper midrange energy. You may or may not like one or the other.

The Sovereign 2001 has considerably more apparent upper midrange energy than the Infinity IRS Series V. The Duntech's balance is not unusual, and many audiophiles prefer it. Most British speakers have a similar balance, and so do some excellent U.S. speakers from Martin-Logan, Thiel, and Snell. I did find, however, that this made the Duntech sound better with one of the sweeter power amplifiers. I'd suggest amps from Conrad-Johnson or Spectral, although a member of the staff at Lyric strongly recommended the Mark Levinson No. 20.

I also suspect that the Duntech has a slight flaw in the smoothness of the upper midrange. I kept hearing an emphasis of sibilance on female voice, and the natural bowing sound was reduced relative to an emphasis of the breathing of the musicians in the opening of the Orlando Quartet's performance of Haydn's "String Quartet in B Flat, Sunrise" (Philips 410053-2).

The Sovereign 2001's treble had the advantage of placing instruments and soloists slightly more firmly than the IRS Series V, but this came at the expense of my being more conscious of listening to a loudspeaker. It was an interesting contest to compare the Duntech and the Infinity, with my choice of the winner varying according to the piece of music. The Duntech tended to win with small musical groups and soloists in those cases where the apparent size of the instrument or voice was critical to musical believability. It lost in those cases where it was important to have the sound stage extend widely across the room and avoid any tendency to divide around the speaker.

I preferred the IRS Series V's performance with choral music, massed strings, grand opera, and complex symphonic music. The Sovereign 2001 had less ability to distinguish voices and float them in three dimensions. If it is more realistic in placing instruments, it is less able to disappear into the music.

The Sovereign 2001 was also a bit two-dimensional. This may be because it does not have any bipolar radiation, or a rear or upward firing driver designed to disperse the sound and add reflected energy. I will immediately concede that speakers which have such features to provide a more three-dimensional sound do so at some cost. Many top audio engineers feel strongly that bipolar radiation and/or additional reflected energy comes at the cost of smearing the details of the original sound. There also is no question that such radiation makes a dipole speaker harder to place and that it can create conflicts between getting the right balance of reflected treble and midrange sound and the smoothest bass. All I can say in reply is that I prefer the added depth and feeling of life in the sound stage to any loss of detail. I have never liked any fully omni directional speaker or one that emphasized reflected over direct energy, but I personally prefer more illusion of space and depth.

As for dynamics, I do not intend to sit through a competition between the Infinity and the Duntech to see which can play the loudest. I am sure that my ears would turn from shining gold to reddened brass long before either speaker revealed audible distortion. In fact, one of the things I like about the Duntech is that you can play rock, jazz, and full symphonic music at their live listening levels without having to boost volume to compensate for shortfalls in the deep bass or without having to reduce volume because the speaker couldn't handle high levels. This is a superbly natural speaker in terms of musical dynamics, and it requires none of the compromises that are inevitable in virtually all the competition.

Regarding possible compromises in the search for the ultimate Duntech at a less than ultimate price, I would actually choose the Sovereign's cheaper heir, the PCL 1000 Crown Prince, over ruling royalty. The Crown Prince costs a mere $5,985 per pair but has more mid-bass and lower midrange, a smoother upper midrange, and a bit more depth. I found it to be preferable with most classical music because of its tonal accuracy and neutrality. The Crown Prince is a considerably smaller speaker, and it sacrifices some of the Sovereign's low bass and dynamic range. The trade-off between the systems is also highly personal. My daughter, for example, plays bass guitar and loves rock listening levels; she would definitely vote for the Sovereign. Given the fact that she is British on her mother's side, she may well know more about royalty than I do.

APOGEE DIVA

If I have Lyric Hi-Fi to thank for allowing me to audition the Infinity and Duntech systems, I have Sound By Singer to thank for my audition of the Apogee Divas. These are the new top-of-the-line Apogee speakers, three-way ribbon systems with dipole radiation. Their rated bandwidth is 30Hz to 25kHz, and they have a 6dB/octave "phase-coherent" crossover for each driver which is housed in an external electronics box. There are adjustment switches for bass, midrange, upper midrange, and tweeter level. Styled more as modern sculpture than as a conventional speaker, theDiva's enclosure is 31 inches wide by 73 inches high by 3 inches deep. This speaker is relatively light by reference speaker standards and weighs "only" 150 pounds each.

Taking musical complexity in stride, the Apogee Diva is as believable as the source material and drive electronics permit.

Moving from one dealer to another may have deprived me of the theoretical merits of listening to three speaker systems in the same room and with the same electronics. On the other hand, the move from Lyric to Sound By Singer did allow me to listen to each speaker with electronics tailored to show it at its best and set up in the best possible place in the room. In fact, my trip reminded me that one of a dealer's prime responsibilities is to assemble systems so that each component is associated with other components that allow it to perform at its best. The most a reviewer can do is highlight the virtues of individual components or a few possible system combinations. A dealer ultimately has to be judged by his ability to create good systems at a given price level, and this is a key reason I enjoy visiting really competent dealers anywhere in the U.S. or Europe. No one person can examine all the possible combinations of components that might make up a great system, and virtually every good high-end dealer comes up with new combinations and new insights into sound.

I mention this because I was struck by the fact that the Divas performed exceptionally well at Sound By Singer, and in a very different way than at the CES in Chicago. Every fullrange speaker at the CES suffered, at least in part, from room problems, and any speaker with powerful, deep bass started to excite the flimsy walls and room boundary areas. In the case of the Divas, as with the Infinity IRS Betas, the result was a lot of excess bass energy and occasional boom.

At Sound By Singer, the Apogee Divas had excellent bass power, extension, and definition. They lacked the Infinity IRS Series V's and Duntech Sovereign 2001's sheer ability to move air, but they went very low indeed and did so with remarkable speed and control. The Divas exhibited excellent bass performance at high levels down to about 25Hz. In fact, the Divas nearly matched the IRS Series V in being able to deliver the entire bass without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. Baritone voice, cello, piano, and bass guitar all had excellent performance-with the exception of some minor irregularities in bass response. The Diva in my home system has shown me that these irregularities are the inevitable cost of trying to place a full-range bipolar speaker in anything but very large or specially treated rooms.

The bass of the Divas had a very fast attack with excellent control. This speaker did not quite have as much power in the deep bass as the IRS or Sovereign and could not resolve individual bass frequencies quite as well as the IRS, but this would only be apparent in comparatively few recordings. What is important is that the Apogee Divas have the right balance of bass energy without overhang or exaggeration. This came through quite clearly in listening to Jazz at the Pawn Shop, Grusin's "Fratelli Chase," and a wide range of other material where natural bass is more important than sheer bass impact. With the right setup, the bass of the Apogee Divas can sound like live music at virtually every listening level short of deafening-and with virtually any kind of music material.

The reader should be aware that any full-range dipole will produce cancellation which varies in frequency according to room and distance from the rear wall. According to the designer, Leo Spiegel, the Divas are mechanically tuned in the low-frequency region to provide significant output below 25Hz. This is accomplished by adjusting the tension across the ribbon to produce a relatively low Q. About 50% of the output of the speaker is radiated to the rear, however, and the proper balance of energy can only be preserved if the speaker is placed at least 36 to 48 inches, but no more than 60 inches, from the rear wall. These distances speak to cancellations in about the 45 to 95Hz range, depending on the specific distance. Therefore, considerable experimentation will be needed to get the best overall performance.

What made the sound of the Apogee Divas really special was their performance from the lower midrange on up. Although, at $7,000 a pair, the Divas are "cheap" by the standards of the Infinity and the Duntech, their combination of speed, detail, balance, and coherence can rival even the Infinity IRS Series V. Once again, this shows up in an exceptional ability to reveal differences in drive electronics and in the associated cartridges, CD players, tuners, and tape players. Again, these are speakers which do best with powerful, high-current transistor amps from Krell, Mark Levinson, Rowland Research, et al.

It is interesting to use speakers like the Divas and listen carefully to the reproduction of given instruments. You can work your way through the strings and woodwinds and not only recognize the instrument as being musically convincing, you can also recognize the age or type of the instrument whenever the recording allows you to do so. It is equally interesting to take violin music and shift from a solo instrument to a chamber work to massed strings. With most speakers, this progression gives a steady loss of definition and realism; the Apogee Divas take musical complexity in stride.

With the Divas, instruments and voice retain all their natural quality, from the softest to the loudest passages and regardless of sudden shifts in musical dynamics. Many speakers can handle solo instrument or voice only as long as they are not required to deal with sudden shifts from very soft accompaniment to very loud passages. A number of speakers tend to highlight one voice or instrument at the expense of others. Some systems produce sudden insights into the music which not only never emerge from other speakers but never occur in live music. The Apogee Divas are as musically convincing as the source material and drive electronics permit.

The key words that I use as a subjective reviewer are "speed", "air," and "transparency." These words can make engineers wince, because it is far from clear that psychoacoustics allow anyone to perceive a ribbon speaker, for example, as being faster or better defined than those of competing technologies. Further, measurements of distortion produce mixed results. Nevertheless, I will argue that the Apogee Divas allow me to hear musical detail in an exceptionally convincing and realistic way, especially in the areas which depend on complex harmonics or overtones, resolution of detail in low-level passages, and handling very rapid, large changes in dynamics.

Striking in their ability to provide natural detail without dryness or overemphasis, the Divas do not make you conscious of upper midrange or treble.

Once again, you don't have to rely on musical spectaculars or my words to understand what I am saying. If you want to hear some of these musical effects, go to an Apogee dealer and try "How High the Moon" and "High Life" from Jazz at the Pawnshop. Try the voice of Amanda McBroom and the instrumental back-up on Dreaming (Gecko Records, distributed through Monster Cable dealers). Try Willie Nelson's version of "Georgia" or Kathleen Battle's rendition of Villa-Lobos on Angel. Try the CD version of Cat Stevens' Tea for the Tillerman or "Always on My Mind" and "Memory" from Jazzical Class. In my view, the Compact Disc of Stevens' Tea for the Tillerman (A&M CD-4280) is considerably better than the analog LP version, and it seems that Cat Stevens is one of the few performers who ever took personal care to ensure that the sound quality of his recordings lived up to his performances. I do not think that the CD version of Jazzical Class (Perpetua PR7003) always lives up to the overall quality of the original recording or performance, but the piano work on bands 3 and 7 is a particularly demanding test of a speaker's capability. These are very diverse pieces of music, in every possible sense, but a really great speaker will make them all musically convincing. The Apogee Divas pass this test.

If you play the drums or are familiar with the sound of percussion instruments played live, listen to the rim work, skin effects, and cymbals on a really good recording. Few speakers can get through this kind of test without fairly obvious colorations. The Divas are believable. The same is true of their reproduction of the best recordings of choral music, massed strings, organ, harpsichord, or any of the other difficult tests of the ability of a speaker to make recorded music believable-as opposed to their handling of such non-music as digital cannons.

The Apogee Divas can, however, play digital cannons. They are rated at least 7dB more efficient than previous Apogee designs, and as producing 115dB SPL at 4 meters with a high-current, 100-watt amplifier in a reasonably sized listening room. If you want sonic spectaculars or are heavily into war games, you can deafen your family and neighbors almost as seriously as you can with the Infinity IRS Series V and Duntech Sovereign 2001.

You also can make major adjustments in the bass, midrange, upper midrange, and treble of the Apogee Divas without affecting their sonic coherence. I found, for example, that I preferred the tweeter and upper midrange controls set low and the other control set at normal. Almost regardless of how the Divas are set, however. they are striking in their ability to provide musically natural detail without dryness or overemphasis. You are not conscious of the upper midrange and treble, but you never miss information. The upper octaves add all the life, air, speed, and complexity to music that they should. Like the IRS Series V, the Diva has the virtue of disappearance. The music takes over and the speakers fade away.

The sound stage is a more complex issue. As with all fullrange dipole speakers, getting the best sound stage involves very careful setup and is also somewhat room dependent. With proper setup-and with the speakers at least 3 feet away from a room boundary, with a plain reflective rear wall, and with the speaker free of large absorptive surfaces other than the floor-the Apogee Divas produce a large three-dimensional sound stage with excellent imaging and a very stable and natural focus.

The Divas are completely free of the two-dimensional character of most point-source speakers, and the sound does not seem to cluster around the speaker. You may not get all the depth of the IRS Series V, but you do get a great deal of depth. The Diva also produces a relatively good listening area in both the near field and the far field. It you listen with several friends, they will hear what you hear provided you place the units reasonably close together. Some audiophiles place dipole speakers quite far apart to get a very large sound stage. The end result is always a hole in the middle and a sound stage that changes with every shift in listening position. Focus and a stable sound stage are always better than exaggeration of the size of the stage.

As for the Diva's shortcomings, there are a few. I would like still more dynamic range and deep bass power. I would like a full-range dipole speaker which could defy the laws of physics and which would lack all room sensitivity. I would like just a bit more range of adjustment in the midrange and upper midrange. I would like perfect compatibility with every amplifier. The Diva's added efficiency and relatively easy-to-drive 3-ohm impedence is a great advantage over previous Apogees, but I would like to be able to use the Diva with low-current tube amplifiers as well.

All in all, my list of shortcomings in the Diva is more a list of mere matters of convenience than of problems in sound quality. The Apogee Diva is a superb speaker system. Like the Infinity IRS Series V and Duntech Sovereign 2001, it is a demonstration that the rich really are different from you and me. They can afford one hell of a lot better speakers!

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:22 PM

How do you suggest I locate the spks? Right now imaging and soundstage are awesome with tremendous bass that sounds like there is a subwoofer on.

Thanks in advance
Look momy...it makes music. Sounds like there is a subwoofer on!

You quote those guys! Get outta here!

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:24 PM

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=74993&review=1

This is a link from RGA.....guess what that guys supposely owned Scintillas. Too bad, it doesnt even mention the word Scintilla or Apogee in the entire post.

Bloddy stupid you are

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:26 PM

[QUOTE=RGA]

From the owner of the best Apogee speakers (as rated by Stereophile magazine) http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SILVER.html

[QUOTE]

The guy owned revison one Duettas......not even close to the best Apogees.

Got some more trys?

PS: Stereophile, what edition. I call BS....i read them all.

RGA

10-08-2005, 02:32 PM

Bwahahaha -- and i'm verbose...LOL pathetic reponse --

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:35 PM

Bwahahaha -- and i'm verbose...LOL pathetic reponse --
HAHA...piss off looser. You can't say **** about facts. Your posts are all empty bull****.
You have nothing to prove your claims, absolutly ****ing nothing!

I laugh at you! :p

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:38 PM

Ignore the Press........Oh wait, what press? No serious reviewer ever says that these things are the holy grail. And those few are right, they are not. So just ignore them cheerfully :cool:

Florian

10-08-2005, 02:44 PM

Hey RGA, build this POS yourself. Saves a lot of money..

I would post real in room response measurements....but just like BOSE...they hide them!

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/IMG_1835.jpg
http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/IMG_1839.jpg

thepogue

10-08-2005, 04:00 PM

footstool!!..lol

Pogue

***** Stax,

You got the worlds largest (and best) electrostatic headphones!

RGA

10-08-2005, 05:31 PM

Enjoy your speakers Flo.

Florian

10-08-2005, 05:41 PM

Enjoy your speakers Flo.
Oh i am, and i will make sure many more get to hear such pleasures instead of listening to your BS coments about planar speakers. Too bad you can't post any frequency responses or facts proving your claims.

-Flo

Ravian

10-08-2005, 06:01 PM

RGA, I have really have no clue what planet you live on. I guess for you "ignorance is bliss" applies more to you than to anyone else. Besides your Audio Note gear that I will discuss in a moment, you own better than average sounding equipment that is barely able to touch on the art of faithfull music reproduction. There is a word out there called high-end, which is unfortunately not within everybody's reach and even few have heard it, not even at shows where the rooms and the audiophile sitting next to you stink.

All that *****ing about boxed speakers, planars etc aside. There is no way a box of that size, with that size and type of driver can reproduce the full range sound that has been recorded. It's not a question of how good or how bad it sounds, it's just impossible, those are the laws of physics and you might wanna try proving them wrong but you can't. If you are convinced you might have a shot at it, try revising some of Einsteins or Hawkings' work as well...

I agree there is a preference to types of sound. But the word reference means that you refer something a standard. The standards are set to the highest grade possible, otherwise referring or comparing would be useless. That Audio Note crap has flaws in so many fundamental areas that it can't be branded Reference, simply because there are tons of speakers out there that excell in one or (mostly) more areas. This has nothing to do with preferences, these are facts.

Furthermore, the planar technology is so far ahead in time compared to the 40s design of that AN crap speaker, that it's not even worth comparing. The reason why people didn't buy them isn't because the fell apart you moron, it's because most people have *****es at home wining about the size of these ****ers. Yeah the AN is a wife-suck-up speaker, one that is acceptable even as a stand to put your plants on. Yes, planars have had their aging problems, but also did conventional designs. All fell apart after 20 years, only now we have the materials and technologies to make 'm better and stronger so if you're gonna tell the story about speakers falling apart, tell the whole story!

You are a pathetic little *** that can't take it when people have more $$ to spend on systems that are actually better. You mistake the word preference for reference. Your gear is better than a 300 USD all-in-one Dolby/DVD unit, but please, do us all a favor and don't ever compare that **** against an IRS V, a Genesis 1.1 or the likes of those!! I personally listened to many high-end systems, including a Genesis II system driven by DCS (full-stack) ARC amps and NBS cabling and it made me cry for two reasons: 1. because I never heard MUSIC like this before (and not GEAR you moron, like you portray we are only interested in), and 2. because it redefined MY own not really modest gear to mediocre....not to mention the crap you call reference.

Audiophiles come in many colors and shapes, but we all have one thing in common: trying to achieve the highest musical satisfaction through faithfull reproduction. However, it's always within a budget. Since you don' thave the budget for top flight gear, the pinnacle audio, you try to throw in some bla bla and hocus pocus about that piece of **** speaker like it's something very special. Let me tell you being an engineer and looking at that thing already makes me lauch. A team of engineers would have a pretty good laugh for an entire evening. The material sucks, the construction sucks, the setup sucks, the driver is nice but is totally inadequate for full-range use, man I don't even know where to stop! You call a planar overpriced crap...HHAHAH. You brain dead or something? You have any idea what it costs to make a good couple of m2 of planar speaker? You have any idea what it costs to spit out that piece of **** cone that's fitted into your AN?

If you say I like the way my AN souds and I'll stick with it you won't hear me. But *****ing about Apogees, to costly to make, to ****ing huge to please the wife, will really make me believe you are one really sick MF who needs a reality check with a true high-end system, possibly wearing a straight jacket. Go home and be happy with that crap and leave us alone....do yourself a favour.

RGA

10-08-2005, 06:10 PM

OK Ravian AKA Florian -- Enjoy your multiple personality disorder and your speakers.

Florian

10-08-2005, 06:13 PM

Are you kidding? I could never write like that. Ask the moderators for the IP adresses.
HAHAH, god i love it. Finally someone with knowledge about some good speakers.
Take your non-frequency response, your deny-the-laws of physics box home. You are clueless about planar speakers and the State-Of-The-Art and i am so damn glad that finally someone could put it in words that i searched for so long.

Just as a note, Ravian and I are both online. Can't be with the same IP.....there is finally another one who sticks it to your BS rambling.:D

-Flo

I have a fellow who is willing to sell me his 1.1x MK II because he wants a 2.1 badly. I NEED A JOB --- LOL :D You are a school kid with no job? Neat, your parents help you for that. I work for my stuff and have read your posts. Man, unbelieveable what a waste of time those were.

RGA

10-08-2005, 06:26 PM

Well it's not terribly difficult to post from another IP address one only needs to go to a library to post. But of course Florian would not do that.

Laws of physics. There is nothing AN has claimed that has not been independantly measured about their speakers. So it appears Ravian AKA Florian know little about the laws of physics or most anything else related to audio.

But be happy in believing you have the world reference most wonderful speakers -- you obviously need to believe in it.

Florian

10-08-2005, 06:32 PM

Forget it RGA your silly comments dont fly anymore. Its 4:30AM in the morning in germany! The one who has to believe it and live the hype is you. No need to hype Apogee, they are already in High End heaven. I dont have to write articles like you do about some technology and to make up for the obvious losses. Nothing you ever said about planar speakers is right, your entire line of storys fall together like a house of cards blowing in the wind. Should i post the construction pictures from IKEA again?

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 06:50 PM

I think we all got our point across, and it's starting to get a bit too nasty. Time to move on.

Florian

10-08-2005, 06:55 PM

I am done here. And its great to see other planar and high end box speaker fans in here. The planar members on this forum is growing. I have asked for a planar section already. Would be wonderfull.

-Flo

RGA

10-08-2005, 06:56 PM

Geoffcin it got nasty because of you - great moderating.

Florian

10-08-2005, 07:00 PM

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 07:05 PM

Geoffcin it got nasty because of you - great moderating.

For your AN raving. Even I had had enough of it. Feels like **** to have your thread hijacked eh? You've made a lot of other people feel that way yourself. It's gotten to be more than you just being a fan-boy for AN. You stuck his nose into other peoples threads so many time and changed their course to an AN rant that I felt it was time you got a taste of your own medicine. I honestly didn't recruit Florian or Ravian and now that's it's become a gang up I'm going to stop it.

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 07:09 PM

Don't blame it on Geof. How chicken is that? He doesn't agree with you and your speakers. Many on this site dont agree with you but keep quiet.

-Flo

PS:If you would stop with your lies i wouldnt have to come on in and start it. Just stop lieing and posting false specs and ill be quiet. Also stop the advertising!

I'm perfectly happy to have RGA post all he wants about AN. It's when I see dozens of other peoples threads end with a discussion of the values of AN speakers that I get pissed.

Florian

10-08-2005, 07:10 PM

There is no gang to stop. I help and recomend many speakers and in fact have not recomended Apogee speakers or planar speaker systems at all to many people when they asked. I don't know ravian at all, and have many friends on here and the gallery which own non-planar systems and we get along just fine. I own many box speakers and also enjoy them, but i simply wont take the constant advertising and lying from RGA anymore.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-08-2005, 07:14 PM

There is no gang to stop. I help and recomend many speakers and in fact have not recomended Apogee speakers or planar speakers in for many people when they ask. I don't know ravian at all, and have many friends on here and the gallery which own non-planar systems and we get along just fine. I own many box speakers and also enjoy them, but i simply wont take the constant advertising and lying from RGA anymore.

-Flo

It's a gang up. I can't let that happen, even if I don't agree with the person who they are ganging up against. It's not about the speakers at all.

Florian

10-08-2005, 07:16 PM

I have no problem with him liking AudioNote, but he uses false claims and lies to put other products down and to make his speakers look good. When someone proves him wrong (like tons of time in this thread) he goes on and makes me look like a box hater and writes soo many pages of garbage that noone reads it and the thread dies.

Geof...what Gang up? There are a few people on here who disagree with RGA's way of posting and his constant advertising and put downs of many speakers. If you look in the profile you will see that most dont even own planar speakers. They simply disagree with him and have done so in tons of posts in the past.

RGA

10-08-2005, 07:27 PM

Geofcin

For quite a long while I have not added railroaded threads because you said not to. I kept all of my statements on topic. If and only if someone in the middle of a thread asked about AN or made a False statement would I then correct it. I pointed this out to you directly and you ignored the issue. Going down this entire speaker thread pagge please show me where I took the topic at hand off course? I have steered clear much of the time. Are you saying tha if someone asks for speaker to go listen to that I should not be suggesting a given brand? Is that taking it off course?

If there is something in the last two months that you can point out to me and then articulate what problem you have specifically then I'll be happy to try and accomodate the situation -- but in order to learn and get better in anything in life you have to say:

This is what was posted
This is what you said RGA that took it off topic
This is why I feel it is inappropriate

And maybe

This is what you could have posted instead.

I have no problems doing this. The B&W thread has Mr. Peabody and myself talking about an AN DAC which he bought and let me know about and I responded. Do you feel I have taken that thread off topic or Mr. Peabody?

I donl't think in every thread it is possible to always stay on topic -- this is a converation forum and conversation drifts. The amp thread class A B etc I posted a link to AN but that was after the pissing match on this thread started.

But hey at least this thread has gotten lots of hits eh and got people all boiled up and interested in this forum which is usually dead. So i guess it's something.

Bernd

10-09-2005, 01:36 AM

Guys,Guys,Guys
Hi,
Having come across and read these interesting conversations you all had about the merits of your respective systems - I am wondering if you have any time left to actually listen to any music on your highly praised gear.
Is this not what it is all about-or am I missing something.

Peace and enjoy the music

Bernd

P.S. "The best thing about banging your head against somebody's wall is the feeling you get when you stop."

Florian

10-09-2005, 03:52 AM

Hi Bernd!

The real issue is that he lies and posts false information about great systems. He always asociates waeknesses with "planars" speakers. He throws Magnepan, Apogee, Quad, Martin Logan, Stax, Audiostatic etc... all in one bowl. He has a complete lack of knowledge and compares mediocre systems to world reference standards. And everytime he gets proven completely wrong he craws in a hole and puts up the Peter Q flag which copies 40 year old design from Mr.Snell. Planar systems are much more dynamic infact, its like a race car. The driver as almost zero mass and has a huge magnetic field behind it. The acceleration and control of the driver is 10 times faster then a cone. The bass driver of my DIVA weighs 50gram which is nothing and gets controled by a 75lbs magnetic field driven by ceramic magnets. The whole constuction weighs 150lbs and uses a STEEL frame. But he says they fall apart and bad build quality. I post a picture of the assembly of an audio note speaker which is incredibly simply. A single 8" driver cannot produce a 20Hz signal, unless you have a huge piston or use some servo control mechanism to balance it out. Those speakers have incredible flaws! They dont even post frequency responses of them anywhere. I wonder why? I will stop when he shuts up about planar systems in general.

-Flo

Geoffcin

10-09-2005, 04:01 AM

There's simple no point to rehashing this subject anymore. These point have all be made already, and any further discourse will not be helpful.

Florian

10-09-2005, 04:12 AM

I will move on, but everytime he writes another lie about those so called "planars" i will have to set him straight again. This site is a resource to many people, and making them read lies and false specs will not help them. Can we please have a planar speaker section?

Flo

Geoffcin

10-09-2005, 04:15 AM

Time to loose the fireplace in the sig too.....

Florian

10-09-2005, 04:22 AM

Time to loose the fireplace in the sig too.....
Thanks, lets hope we can have one. This should seperate those problems once and for all. I would like to write articles about their technology and how they work and what they can do so that people don't have to see our fights when i am trying to teach something to RGA.

-Flo

PS: The FP is gone. (was quite amusing tough)

Bernd

10-09-2005, 06:43 AM

Hi,
Untruth serves nobody on here. Neither does blind faith. Flo, you are of course right to point out untruth and I find it refreshing to read what you write and considering your young age you have a good deal of knowledge. I for one (twice your age) have learned something from you. So,thank you for that.
I do think however that the term World reference is very much subjective on who does set the marker for the reference.
I have heard the big Zingali Home Monitors and I felt I was in that smoky basement club at a front table when the needle hit the groove.
I would dearley love to hear an Apogee just to compare. Maybe one day.
Let the music do its bit and lets carry on exchanging views.

Peace

Bernd

Florian

10-09-2005, 08:26 AM

You are right about the world reference opinion. I see it like this, it is widely accepted that the Wilson Audio X2, The Gensis 1.1, the Infinity IRS-V, The Duntech Souvereign 2001, the Apogee DIVA, Fullrange and Grand, the Activ Martin Odeon Horn, Martin Logan Statment E2 and the Kharma Exotica, the Magnepan MG20.1 and the Alon Grand Exotica are nirvana products. They are products which were not limited by the budget of their designers. They represent the state of the art and any speaker in that range is a world reference for me and many others.

-Flo

PS: Please download this word file http://www.apogeeclub.de/searchfortheultimate.doc it will give you a hint of what the DIVA really is.

Bernd

10-09-2005, 09:27 AM

Hi Flo,
These are of course great speakers to lust after. I somehow think however that nothing stays on top for ever.
And there are others who will bring musical bliss. We must not forget though that it is after all just musical reproduction and not the real thing. When I play my Guitar, even very softly, the dynamics and fullness of tone will not be reproduced by any speaker I know. Some come closer than others.
On a different note has anybody else found that mood effects the way we listen to our systems? The same disc can sound great one day and then another time not very involving at all.
Everything is relative-especially in audio, I have heard different systems which their owners praised to high heaven. And guess what the more aggreessive the patter was the less convincing it sounded.
Anyway mustn't ramble.

Peace

Bernd

Florian

10-09-2005, 09:32 AM

Hey Bernd!

You said it very well, these are speakers to lust after. There are systems that come closer to the real thing then others. Thats what the audiophile quest is, to get as close to the real thing as possible. And the ones that do this best are our reference standards. If you owned a speaker from the top list, and you knew what they can do and it has been widely accepted that these are the ultimate speakers and come closest to the real thing would you be proud to own it? If yes, would you let someone write lies and false claims about them for the sole purpose of advertising for another company?

-Flo

PS: Please download this word file http://www.apogeeclub.de/searchfortheultimate.doc it will give you a hint of what the DIVA really is, and why i won't someone write lies of a company that helped create High End.

Bernd

10-09-2005, 09:41 AM

Florian

10-09-2005, 09:50 AM

Then i can learn from you, i simply can't stand advertising liers. I am spinning music every hr of the day (laptop in the music room). :D I am here to help the members, and i have helped many. There are many members here who have accepted and thanked me for my help. I reply to posts and recomend box and planar systems. And if someone writes lies and false claims about a obvious great speaker technology, while always advertising for a copied 40 year old design then i will try to correct it.

Thanks for the great comment

-Flo

RGA

10-09-2005, 10:01 AM

Hi Flo,
In answer to your question(s). Yes I would be proud to own any of the Speakers mentioned. And you know it wouldn't bother me one bit if somebody printed untruth or rubbish about them.
For example, I am really happy the way my system sounds in my room. In a bigger room I would change things.
Anyway while we at the subject I will go into the music room now and spin a few discs to finish the weekend off in style.

Peace

Bernd

I would consider how a subjective listening experience can be a lie when you start considering the supposed untruths I am accused of. I have no problems with whatever choice anyone makes. I do have a problem with people claiming world reference where where the ONLY way that is true is if ALL experts in the field agree --- and they don't. We can post all the reviews we wish - chances are B&W has more and none of that is going to prove points because everyone even Bose gets good reviews by somebody -- Hi-fi Choice had one as a recommended component.

I have never said that the speakers I like are world reference or world's best or perfect. So consider the reasonability of the sides in a debate. Talking on another forum with a fellow presenting his line at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest -- they have people picking Best of show that didn't even listen to half the rooms (then you have some say brand A was best while others say brand C was best) - so if there are 500 presenters at a CES and you have 4 days to listen what kind of use is such a thing excpet to pick the one you like best before you listened or the one that advertises most in your magazine -- there is no way one person can listen to all of those systems for any quantifiable period of time and being able to fairly take into account the very different sized and shaped rooms (remember the room aspect? It's like being a Ferrari lover and then going to a car show and picking a Ferrari -- well what a surprise.

I have not state anything about panels that has not been stated by many others and again a listening experience cannot be a lie. There is no way to prove a listening session - but if you look at the speaker forum at AA there is a thread going of worst high end speakers you've ever had and the 3.6 is listed -- some like them obviously - some do not however and the people who don't like them are not wrong or right. It's right for them though.

Florian

10-09-2005, 10:11 AM

Its simple RGA, from the 9 DIVA reviews ever published they took the Reference 1 Class title. They geo compared to and are on par with the speakers i listed above. Those systems are our reference list. This is a widely accepted list and if i were to start a poll on this forum i bet the ML Statment and the Genesis 1.1 and IRS-V would come out ahead since they are the most widely known along with the X2 Alexandria. But don't be so sure, those systems are not found easily and are not easy to listen too. Those systems can't display their performance in a showroom.

I claim no title, the title has already been given. If i call it "world reference" title, or you call it "reference" title only makes no difference. Fact is that you claim no bass response below 45Hz on the Apogee's while i can proove you wrong and show you realtime frequency responses and reviews which are far more complex then the hearing tests conducted on some few AudioNote speakers. The dynamic capability is proven to be extrmely good which is easy because the force is 10 times stronger compared to the regular conus drivers. The construction quality is extremely good and way superior to those of AudioNote.The speakers employ a steel frame and use wood at the front for cosmetics only which have no effect on the sound since the speaker is a dipole in the first place. You cannot provide any measurements from the AudioNote speakers and cannot provide any profesional reviews discrediting the ones i posted.

You also throw in all planar speaker systems in one bowl which is completey wrong and unacceptable. Do you not know that there are literry a mass of people listening to panel speakers or panel hybrids and that this mass is far more then any AudioNote or Snell design? Let me make a list for you: Final, Audiostatic, Acustat, Magnepan, Apogee, Martin Logan, Stax, Perigee, Quad, VMPS, Eminent Technology and the list goes in. These speakers have won an insane amount of prizes! You are simply wrong with your claims and cannot prove me wrong, and posting links to a audio asylum discussion board were 3 members discuss a new speaker that they bought which replaced a broken speaker where at the time no repairs were available simply does not cut it.

-Flo

Florian

10-09-2005, 10:23 AM

Also i would like to add that if you cannot post any technical data from AudioNote such as a frequency response diagram (of a finished speaker in a real room) or a time decay plot then it does't count. Claims from Peter Q are unacceptable since he is a manufacturer and believing that is like believing Doctor Amar BOSE that his speakers are the best. Show me some real data, real measurements and reviews with some kind of technical background published by such writers from the Magazines that reviewed Apogee. Every major US and European magazine has tested Apogees and its not hard to find them. You publishing 3 quotes from a internet magazine. That has no credibility. Facts count, and i can provide facts!

-Flo

RGA

10-09-2005, 11:38 AM

First Flo and please try to calm down for just a monment take a deep breath before getting agitated as I am trying to do. Try and read what I am saying carefully and pretend it is not RGA saying it.

First if you are going to state my view - state my view fairly and accurately -- you say I said that apogee has "no bass response below 45Hz on the Apogee's." maybe you read this wrong because I have never said any such thing. Possibly there is a misunderstanding here.

When you make an argument the onus is on you to provide some sort of evidence of what you say.

You say this "9 DIVA reviews ever published they took the Reference 1 Class title" Can you explain what this is and what it means. Can you show the Reference class 1 title -- is this a magazine publication -- a website -- what is this? I looked through Stereophile and I see no reference 1 class title - I see class A but there are boxed speakers listed there -- like Paradigm and no Magneapans so I am puzzled.

Are you saying that there are 9 reviews from 9 reviewers who said that this Diva speaker is a Reference speaker? And what exactly do they mean by that. All I have seen is some reviews at audio shows where a reviewer said it was the best thing he heard at a show -- they never hear them all and not every company presents at shows. The AN E is used by hi-fi choice as a reference speaker - when they listen and compare amps and cd players they listen on AN E speakers. Or is it another kind of reference you're talking about? Do you think Martin Colloms, Art Dudly, Paul Messenger (Of Hi-Fi Choice) would go out and use bad speakers deliberately to test out other products with? They can use any speaker so can you maybe explain to me why they would pick the AN E to be a reference speaker for evaluation?

I have not lumped all panels in together and I have spoken directly about the specific ones that I have heard over the years - almost bought some electrostic speakers and headphones.

As for being widely known that is not an indicator of what is best - The Bose 901 is widely known and has been selling for more than 30 years -- most people have heard of Bose most people think Bose is best and most people buy Bose - even had some famous reviewers tout them at the time as the best speakers they had ever heard. And there were plenty of measurements of them conducted... I am not at all compairning Bose to ML or Genesis I'm merely stating that if I went to a mall and asked 100 people about 5 famous speakers Bose would come out more often than any other and JBL would probably be next.

You are also going to need to explain for me what you mean by" force being 10 times strong" -- I suggest you read Harry Ohlson's, Leo Beranek's books on speaker designs because all speakers have pro's and cons and movement of air is produced better by cone speakers -- the panel has to be very very large like a Statement to be able to do it and even the Statement as big as it is STILL has a massive separate bass module. For example have you ever listened to the Aerius i? I'm sure you will agree that it is not nearly as powerful as the Stetement -- the Aerius can't play nearly as loud or as well. Many speakers it's size from boxed speakers have a lot more power have much better bass - the Aerius does some things better than many boxes too but bass and power are not its strength.

The ML Statement is certainly likely one of the best speakers available on the current market - even their lower models I would make the case as being some of the best on the market. But there are plenty of cone speakers in the same kind of price band that many people like better and think are better. Dynaudio Evidence Masters, B&W Model Nautilus big Vons Sweikerts etc

I have no arguement to make with the fact there are more people listening to panel speakers than Audio Note or any one single brand. Panels are not a new design they've been around for 40+ years by many manufacturers and yes that means there are more owners than people who have bought AN speakers - but I never argued that and don't see what that has to do with anything - AN has sold speakers since 1989 does not advertise. So naturally there will be more panel owners but then there are more Bose owners than all panel manufacturers sales combined - it just does not have anything to do with anything.

Lastly measurements have been conducted of AN speakers by Martin Colloms and Paul Messenger and Audiofile Magazine. Martin Colloms did it in Hi-fi News magazine in I believe 2001 but if you go to the magazine they probably have a back issue section and you can get it from them -- Hi-fi Choice -- you can just go to their reviews page on their web-site. You were the one though that said a few months back that you should go with your ears and not by the measurements -- and this is where I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Florian

10-09-2005, 11:55 AM

I am very calm and will look for the nice repsonse where you said that panel speakers dont do bass, have dynamic limitations etc.. why else would i get so upset with you?

Now i did post many many reviews, and if you would take your time to read them then you will see where the reference titles come from. I gave you a small list where the review dates are listed incl. the reviews. Please take time to go back and read them.

You throw them all in a bowl again. The Martin Logans are a vastly different design from Apogee, Magnepan, Stac, Quad etc.. Apogees do not have the problem of running the bass membrane lower. Martin Logans cant do that! If you take time to read the Apogee patents you will find out why they have no typical bass and loudness limitation found in stats. Take as much time reading as you spend writing.

For the FACTS, you cannot claim anything regarding speakers from AudioNote without a actual measurment data. Post some data in here, because the reviews you mentioned do not have in room measurments at all and Peter Q does not provide them.

You talk about speaker build quality and that they fall apart not one page ago, and that is a plain lie. You know the construction of the AudioNotes and know that a single blow by a IRS-V bass tower will crush that box. The Apogees employ a steel frame and weigh over 150lbs a piece! The construction is exellent and they last considerebly longer then the e-panels in Martin Logans and other Stats.

The driver mass is incredibly light and it controlled by a huge magnetic field which makes the movement control much better then your typical conus driver. Read on the patents and see the technical details for more. The drivers employed in the AudioNotes are "UNABLE" to produde the full frequency spectrum at normal listening levels which is why they need boundry gain to do so. I highly doubt the specs quoted by AudioNote and will only believe a frequency response picture of a in room resonse.

If you are unable to provide facts about the build quality, driver control and frequency responses then you have no bizz talking about anything related to a planar speaker.

AND FOR GODS SACKE, ACCEPT THAT MARTIN LOGAN PANELS; MAGNEPAN PANELS; APOGEE PANELS; AUDIOSTATIC PANELS; QUAD PANELS etc.. are all different and cannot be commented on as a "panel".

JohnMichael

10-09-2005, 12:00 PM

Florian

10-09-2005, 12:09 PM

I never thought I would get hooked on a Soap Opera but I can not help tuning in to RGA v Florian. It reminds me of Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin on Saturday Night Live's Point/Counterpoint. Jane you ignorant slut. Its not a fight, its me defending the honor of planar speakers. Its me fighting the evil alien invasion from planet AN in sector 438. But instead of letting a 200lbs speaker fall on him that would crush him i try it with words. But so far the winnings are small, but if all i get out of this is that he will know that there are differences in panels i am happy. Maybe he doesnt know that they all use different membranes, magnets, suspension systems and have different requirements. I dont know, i have been trying to figure out how he works since over a year. So has my friend Brad, but he doesnt waste his time anymore. Maybe Ravian comes back in, i enjoyed that.

-Flo

JohnMichael

10-09-2005, 12:43 PM

Its not a fight, its me defending the honor of planar speakers. Its me fighting the evil alien invasion from planet AN in sector 438. But instead of letting a 200lbs speaker fall on him that would crush him i try it with words. But so far the winnings are small, but if all i get out of this is that he will know that there are differences in panels i am happy. Maybe he doesnt know that they all use different membranes, magnets, suspension systems and have different requirements. I dont know, i have been trying to figure out how he works since over a year. So has my friend Brad, but he doesnt waste his time anymore. Maybe Ravian comes back in, i enjoyed that.

-Flo

Keep fighting the good fight and I will tune in tomorrow.

Peter Duminy

10-09-2005, 01:01 PM

Florian

10-09-2005, 01:03 PM

Please read these patents and come back with knowledge.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/1.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/2.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/3.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/4.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/5.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/6.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/7.jpg

Florian

10-09-2005, 01:04 PM

and here is more
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/8.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/9.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/10.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/11.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/12.jpg
http://www.apogeeclub.de/patent/13.jpg

Jim Clark

10-09-2005, 01:14 PM

What pisses me off more than anything right now is Florian's new signature that requires me to scroll horizontally to read posts. What ever you do stay away from Rave Recs until you fix that.

jc

Florian

10-09-2005, 01:17 PM

What pisses me off more than anything right now is Florian's new signature that requires me to scroll horizontally to read posts. What ever you do stay away from Rave Recs until you fix that.

jcI changed it. Works fine on 800x600 now and well...noone runs lower then that.

-Flo

PS: This is no rave BS, its a matter of facts vs. fiction.

Jim Clark

10-09-2005, 03:28 PM

much appreciated.

jc

RGA

10-09-2005, 04:52 PM

First Flo i just wanted you to answer the questions I put to you. I understand what you're trying to say but please let us try to take it one step at a time finish one point befroe moving onto 7-8 more points because then it gets confusing because I'm trying as best as I can to address your complaints about my posts but until I can do that for you it makes it difficult when you are not helping me to see better what you are trying to say.

Most any argument is caused by a lack of communication (a failure to communicate as that movie said). So if you can address the last post first before we go into this post it would be helpful.

Right now we're all over the place throwing a barage of reviews here and there and the amusing thing you have to see is that we're throwing the same reviewiers at each other to defend points or to argue other points when in fact none of that is really relevant. The problem with reviews from the 1980s is that a lot has happened since then -- The AN E for instance used to be rated to 25hz-6db and they have wrestled more out of it over the years.

I have read reviews of Apogees and I never bulked them into one camp but they are panels and whether using stat or ribbons they are both called in name panel loudspeakers. I have heard speakers from Apogee, Quad, Magnepan, and Martin Logan. I do not seek out speakers that are no longer made because where would I go to hear them? No stores carry them. Though when a dealer has a used model I actively seek out an audition.

You do not need a frequency graph to determine how much bass a speaker has.

In attempting to address your query on AN E bass response I did find this

This is directly quoted from Martin Colloms on the AN E in HiFi News & RR June 2002

""I checked out the speaker in the lab and confirmed the high 94dB sensitivity, with 3.6 ohm minimum impedance, a wide 28Hz to 20kHz (+/-3dB) response when adjusted for near wall palcement, and a 29Hz tuned port with an in-room -6dB point of 18Hz at reasonable drive levels.."

Audio Note's numbers are AN E 94db 18hz-6db and I have to say that's pretty accurate for the manufacture when the rooms were quite different.

BTW I hope you don't get the impression that I am saying that the AN E is capable of the deepest bass around, because that is not what I'm saying.

What AN claims is that they have the most bass with the highest efficiency of a box that size on the market(but note exactly what they say -- a box that size not against something ten times bigger) ...and no one has proven that wrong. Heck even Peter himself owns a few speakers that put out deeper bass by quite a bit than the AN E.

And as you probably already know very little musical content goes under 41hz so any speaker that has bass rated below 30hz is doing good for 99.99% of music. so obviosuly a panel that has bass to 30hz like Martin Colloms said about the Scintilla is MORE bass than you will probably ever need.

Also, as you probably already know speakers that have very very deep bass become highly problematic for positioning - kind of a too much of a good thing makes it worse kinda deal as many of the reviews note not just for apogee buit any deep bass speakers.

Unfortunatley not everything is available on the net so I can't show you graphs if it is in a print magazine that I do not own - all I can do is tell you where you can find them and even then I don't know if Colloms bothered to create a graph or not. I know that Audiofile magazine did do a graph (and waterfall plot) because I had the graph and re-made it in Excel and posted it here some time ago. I did not have a scanner and the print copy I had of the graph was the size of a glass coaster so even if I had a scanner it would be tough to make out - so I put it in excel so that it was highly readable.

The magazine was in German so I could not tell where they measured was it in a room in an Anechoic chamber, in the corners, or free-standing so the graph's bass response was not as usefful as it could have been if I had known this but they gave it 5 stars so I gether they liked it even though I could not read anything.

The design goals are completely different so judging something by weight is like judging a Stradivarius being worse because it doesn't weigh as much as a piano.

I am not sure why you are posting patents? Audio Note has lots of patents as well -- as did Snell as did Leo Beranek. Beranek has written many books on acoustics and has been designing opera houses (still does in Japan) for years. Pretty much every loudspeaker designer on the planet references his works, papers, and books on the field of acoustics. This is not some nobody in the field.

I am not lumping all panels together I am talking about the ones I have heard. As you know Woochifer the one people find is way more level headed than I does not care for Apogee or Magenapn either. I am trying to stress to you that no matter how many awards and reviews all of these speakers get people have preferences and not everyone is going to like AN and not everyone is going to like the ML statement or apogee Diva Grand etc.

The way you come across to me sometimes is saying that "Speaker model X is the best in the world and if you don't agree then you're deaf" Again this is the way you've come across to me -- and why Woochifer was on your case a while back. And why people were on you when you decided to quit this forum.

Ravian

10-09-2005, 06:08 PM

Seems like there's more work to do here....

There is no way an 18 Hz tone can come from a box of that size with that kind of driver. Yes, the freq. will be generated, but they need to use the refex load AND the back wall to amplify it to an in-room measured level of -6dB. The -3dB point is at 28 Hz (also using the same trick) so that leaves some room wondering what kind of TRUE frequency response it has at -3dB...probably around 40-50Hz or something.

If you say not many recordings go deeper than 41Hz anyway, then probably either your speakers didn't allow you to experience that or you don't have these recordings. A lot of recordings actually have info below that, sometimes annoying so you raise the cut-off freq. on your beloved Genesis servo amp :-) or sometimes stunning that you're actually feeling the air from the organ move, the thuds of people moving around on stage etc etc. Until you experience a response of 16Hz or lower at -3dB with lots of juice behind it to create some actual pressure, you can't ever compare your AN speaker to those systems.

Speakers that produce low bass are not more difficult to position by definition. It's more difficult to tune the ROOM to the speakers, not the other way around. It also heavily depends on the fact if these speakers are dipoles or not.

I agree with you that the design goals for speakers were different, but for a conventional box speaker like the AN (and yes, it's conventional, nothing fancy) weight would actually give an indication to the quality of the cabinet. Now, as I understand, they use only light internal bracing and almost no damping, so what they're doing is trying to use the cabinet resonances (which are unavoidable in this construction) to help the driver create a flat response in total. Which is a nice idea but unfortunately won't do the trick because it depends heavily on SPL, room placement etc. Excuse me, but 19,500 for that biggest piece of crap is really NOT worth the money. There is absolutely nothing special about the material nor the construction, just a clever approach, thinking "outside the box". It's the best scam around in my opinion.

QUOTE: I am trying to stress to you that no matter how many awards and reviews all of these speakers get people have preferences and not everyone is going to like AN and not everyone is going to like the ML statement or apogee Diva Grand etc.

That's exactly what I told you the last time, you mix up reference with preference. Although some Britisch reviewers use that as their reference, there is no question it's their preference. The more people prefer a speaker, the more it actually becomes THE reference, aside from any measurements or specs. Especially when they recognize it as the best they ever heard, bar none. I'm pretty sure the big planars have gotten this type of reaction more than the AN stuff, only for that reason and that reason alone you can't put them on the same level, no matter how much you want to. The only reason why people like you think they can play at the same level is because they never actually heard THE reference models... like IRS V, Genesis 1.1, II, 201, Apogee DIVA, Wilson WAMM, Avalon Osiris, etc. etc. These things portray live music with a sense of ease, dynamics, sheer power and INSTANTLY make you think your system at home is crap. I'm pretty sure the AN stuff doesn't do that....they're not jaw-droppers, never will....sorry to disappoint you. Again, the only thing that makes my jaw drop is how they can get away with their MSRP of 19,500 for that coffin.

RGA

10-09-2005, 09:30 PM

Ravian (I oppologise as this is long but I want to state as clearly and non argumentatively as i possibly can what it is I'm actually saying which maybe comes across badly)

First i'm not sure how you can deny what Martin Colloms measured -- have you measured them? The upper E achieved 16hz at room shaking levels. The speakers are designed for corner placement so I don't get the argument that they only achieve bass because of this - well yes but then it was designed for the corner. Double bass is 41hz - so unless you listen to loads of pedal organ and certain synthasizer music you won't need much under 30hz (note I didn't say 40hz) and one reason I chose the J was primarily that I don;t particularly listen to pedal organ - though the J was measured to 25hz-6db. Hi-fi Choice listens in blind panel sessions -- The J was the only standmount that they had to remove from the Standmount listening sessions and move it in against floorstanders and still commented on the prodigious bass on tap.

And as some have noted one can get a subwoofer for true feeling bass and cross it at 20-25hz. The speaker is not $19,500(there is a version of them but one does not need to buy them) - The speaker ranges from $4k-$125k (and a ~2k kit) and I make no comment about the one off 50lbs worth of sliver in external crossover (the size of a big krell amp per speaker and 98db sesnitivity. I have heard the AN E Sec Silver at $19,500US because my dealer who has heard every big name speaker over the last 30 years and sold ML and Magnepan and Quad - bought them. I have heard them - have you.

I certainly do agree with you that there are bigger more powerful bass systems available and I have said that about 50 times now. Yes you can get more bass and more powerful bass...hell even Constantine Soo says that and he is compairing them directly against Apogee(he owns them) and a big Genesis set-up. Considering the other speakers he has all of which are more expensive than the $2700.00US AN E/D he tells you that :

"Sound of AN-E/D vs. My Significant Others

Compared to the Klipschorn, the AN-E/D exhibited lifelike dynamics with superior timbre accuracy. The speaker is more articulate than my horns but cannot match the dynamic ease that horns are capable of.

My Genesis VI, with its servo-powered subwoofers, produces room-filling loudness and excellent bass, but the Genesis could not transcend the AN’s delicacy with regard to pipe organ recordings.

My Apogee Duetta Signature, a soundstaging champ with the frequency smoothness of ribbons, comes closest in the articulation to the AN but at the expense of the dynamic transients. Lastly, my Celestion SL700 produces striking dynamic transients and pinpoint imaging but not the AN-E/D’s richness in instrumental overtones.

Conclusion

The AN-E/D gradually and subtly eclipsed my Significant Others with its singular musicality and proved itself irreplaceable. Sonically, the AN-E/D reproduces instrumental timbres with an addictive musicality. Instruments are given a detailed portrayal and responsive dynamic transients..."

For instance I have heard the B&W Model Nautilus which is I believe rated to 15hz and it does have deeper response -- but what never gets discussed in any thread about bass very often is the kind of bass being portrayed timbrally and givent the $60,000.00Canadian Price tag of the Model Nautilus and the 8 power amplifiers required to drive them versus the AN E/Sec Silver (at that time $30k Cad) and a modest necessity of about 10 watts to drive it and after hearing both speakers and not even knowing of AN at that time the one that made the impreession of wow that is something else was the undamped tuned frequency box of the AN.

Don't kid yourself I know full well the insanity of the way it LOOKS on paper and I knew it then. The B&W is a work of freaking art heavy brilliantly constructed multi-way drivers and it sounds technically excellent -- looking at a rectangle two way box with freaking paper woofers and a foam surround that weighs 40ish pounds is exactly the opposite of all that I have learned in 15 years in this hobby. But in my listening sessions the AN E sounded better period end of issue. The N801 at 14KCad and the E/LX around $5kCad is probably a fairer example. Only one survived at my dealer.

I would ask you yourself if you are ever in Victoria to simply give it a go. Soundhounds is selling the highly raved B&W Diamond 800 I guess it is that Retails for $20,000.US and they are carrying Magnepan (they may even have the 20.1) I don't know the price of it. Run them out against the AN E/LX and play pedal organ and tell me the results.

"The more people prefer a speaker, the more it actually becomes THE reference, aside from any measurements or specs."

The problem is that what I am saying is there is NO such thing as a reference. Because the movie Gladiator Won best picture does not mean it really was the best picture. What it means is that of a subset of voters the most votes went to that film. if we want to get into reference speakers then we'll be here all day because Peter Duminy of ex B&W could probably provide a far longer list of major professional recording studios that use some sort of B&W loudspeaker than those using Apogee or any panel or AN or anyone else. Maybe PMC hangs in. It is interesting that the only way you are ever going to get a recording the way it was meant to be is if you are using the exact dimensions the RE was sitting in with his speakers.-- and that changes with every studio. And what was considered a reference by someone in 1985 may not be so today.

As for your nasty comments I don't see why they're called for -- I have always told people that many other speakers beat the AN E in other areas - but like Constantine what I was drawn to was not the wow holy crap did that bass make you poop your pants or a dynamic scale that could blow you out of the room (I have heard speakers that do either of those better) or ones that created a physically larger soundstage. What I maintained and what Mr. Soo notes is the unflappabble singular musical integrity that is very difficult to trade in for anything else.

For a specific example I have heard the very big PMCs driven with massive Brystion monoblocks and the level of sheer slam it creates is something the AN's siomply don't do - but then that also applies to those gigantic horn speakers in dance clubs.

Lastly I am not saying that the AN speakers are a world reference -- I am not arguing that they're the best what I am arguing is that there IS NO best. I know full well people will listen to AN speakers and not love them. That was not and is not my argument. The fact that a particular speaker is the best that I have heard so far is a "moment in time" scenario.

If I end up going to the CES as planned then I may find something I like much better but to THIS point this is where I am at and I have heard Wilson Sophias but not that Watt, I have heard the Prodigy and Odyssey but not the Statements, I have heard the Model Nautilus but it's not everyone's favorite, I have heard the AvanteGuarde Duo's but not the trios, I have heard the big new Quads 989?? I didn't really look at the numbers, and some of the bigger 15k PMCs (and man they're uglier than AN). And I have heard the JM Labs Mezza Utopia. $25kish Cad.

So there is a lot of big name top rated stuff I need to hear...I never said the AN E was better than anything I have not heard. If I lumped all panels intogether as I have been accused of doing it was unintentional as it was more about the ones that I have directly heard.

RGA

10-09-2005, 09:56 PM

Actually the AN E is +3db at 40hz which is pretty flat all the way to about 400hz.

Stereophile writer Peter van Willenswaard may comment on his set of E's here as I'm too tired right now to read it Looks like there's a bunch of measurements for something http://stereophile.com/features/357/index4.html

Florian

10-10-2005, 05:20 AM

Sorry i didn't reply earlier, i woke up with a head cold. I think i know a way in which we can end the troubles between us. Maybe the AudioNote J that i heard was setup incorrectly, maybe the electrononics or it could be that i simply do not like the way they sound and believe that my Apogee DIVA Reference comes much closer to the sonic truth then the Audio Notes. Can you accept the possibility that the planar speakers you have heard could have suffered from the same problems? If you ever come to germany you can have a listen to my DIVAS and a chance to listen to a 20.1 driven by a Jadis JP80, Krell KPS25 transport, Krell 64x Studio DAC, Conread Johnsons P5's on the bass and a P4 on the mid/hi plus a Apogee Scintilla driven by two KRS200's.

Cheers and thanks for the good chat, we are just too different in our taste. Well, to be exact we are the opposites. ;)

-Flo

PS: Time doesnt stand still, new suspension systems, new foils, new electronics allow "both" technologies to reach new highs so dont be put off by a old review. Those systems still are what many consider the top end of audio reproduction systems and they shine even more with new technology that is "actually" better eventough i personally like old equipment more then new.

Peter Duminy

10-10-2005, 08:54 AM

thepogue

10-10-2005, 08:55 AM

oh boy...I'm kinda havin' a panic attack...

man I haven't see a brawl like that since Haggler and Sugar Ray

Let's see how we can promote this...

the unemployed school lad from the great white north with his second hand AN stuff against the....hm....AHHH....the wealthy and pompous plantar defender with the evil geramn accent!!

ok Flo...you need to wear an SS uniform with a crown made from the same wire they make Divas stators from....and RGA...you need to wear ripped up seal fir...with Eskimo boots...toting' a small ugly wooden box (the "J" model??)

now if we can just get a tag team partner fer you two....we're REALLY on to somfinn big!!!

you guys KILL me!...roflmao

Paradgim looks better and better every day!..lmao!

Pogue (I LOVE this place!!).llol

Florian

10-10-2005, 09:17 AM

That was without a doubt the most offending and idiotic post on this forum for a long time. I am sure that RGA and i can agree on this one. I am not rich, nor am i old. I am not a snob and have started from a 200$ receiver just like most other people.

-Flo

Florian

10-10-2005, 09:19 AM

RGA

10-10-2005, 11:20 AM

I should share something with you Flo. For 2 years I was Co-engineering /R&D/assisting Level 9 Sound Inc. or as some may know them as Monsoon Audio. Well, as Brian Cheney will confirm, we supplied him with the Midrange Panels for the VMPS models upto and until 2 years ago, before the Company closed down here in Richmond. I think if RGA had heard these panels without being fully broken-in, or on amplifiers with less than stellar specifications, he may have left less than impressed. When setup correctly however, these planar ribbons did sound excellent. Hopefully, RGA can hear your systems when in Europe as you suggest.

Peter and Flo

LOL yeah I fly around the world every week :D Peter you live in Vancouver so perhaps you know where one can listen to good panels. The dealers I listened to most of the gear at was Hi-fi Center, Commercial Electronics and Sound Plus.

I'd be more than willing to try better Apogees or better ribbon planars or better Electrostats - my comments are strictly based on the ones I have heard. It is conceivable that I would like a different bigger badder panel. It is not like I am tied to the AN J for life. Morricab on AA uses SET amplifiers with his Apogees so so long as the panel does nto have to be run with SS amps then My opinion can be changed. My mind is open enough to try before I comment. Morricab suggested that Apogee with SET makes all the difference and I listened to the Apogee Duetta Sig with SS amps and primarily was put off by the upper midrange lower treble (fatigue) - but then this ios something that I hear ion SS amps so if the speaker was drawing attention to the SS amps grain then it's possible.

The reason I am coming to this conclusion is that Constantine Soo likes the AN E so much but he also likes Duetta Sig very much as well -- therefore it stands to reason the he like Morricab may also be onto something with the front end replay.

I am not anti panel sound -- I like ML and parts of what other planar and opanel speakers do -- The bit I have missed thus far in my auditions is that cherry on top of the sundae to make me say "this .. this is it!' I keep hearing some sort of audible nasty somewhere that has taken me out of the experience. If a better panel fixes the issues for me whether it is electrostatic or ribbon then I'm open to it.

I can go to Vancouver possibly next week so Peter if there is a good set-up you know of at a dealer of there let me know. Otherwise I may go to Soundhounds. They said if Magnepan sells well they will bring in the 20.1 (but I'm nnot convinced they have a room that would be overly wonderful for a panel that big - still no listening room is ideal but they generally give a reasonably good idea...obviously because poeple buy em). Just a note that this dealer set-up issue applies to boxed speakers like AN or B&W as well. The N801 at Hi-fi Center sounded like a complete piece of garbage a dead souless boomy speaker -- Soundhounds had them in a gigantic main room nowhere near any room boundaries -- at least 6 feet from the back wall and mayb 10 from side walls and being run with a 11 watt integrated SET amp from (Nuvista??) and the hulks managed to dissapear and completely reversed my opinion of them as something that actually sounded very good.

The AN speakers cannot go too too close to a wall or they sound boomy, if they are freestanding they lack bass weight and sound lean...I pulled my J's 4 feet into the room as an experiment as a typical freestanding speaker and umm no it doesn't work. They need to be a certain distance from corners and it has to be toed in - in a room with an internal volume specified within the given range Both rooms that soundhounds has the AN speakers in are not ideal in the least...one the speaker is where the N801s are which puts the AN E at a serious disadvantage and in the other room it is very narrow such that the speakers are about 5 feet apart facing straight out. Soundstage and image is far far better in my room than at Soundhounds. The AN's don't like being close together either.

Pogue -- I understand the attempt at humour but I taught some German students in my class this year and I would try and avoid Nazi humour -- leave that to Mel Brooks. And Seals well when i lived in Australia way back people would say "Save a Seal Club a Canadian" Sadly the act of a few ruin it for the majority (then again the majority didn't stop it so...)

thepogue

10-10-2005, 11:23 AM

then it is also in fact in the correct thread ...

Pogue

That was without a doubt the most offending and idiotic post on this forum for a long time. I am sure that RGA and i can agree on this one. I am not rich, nor am i old. I am not a snob and have started from a 200$ receiver just like most other people.

-Flo

thepogue

10-10-2005, 11:39 AM

and the three stoogers and donald duck..... I guess I'm in good company!!

I still say it would be a great ticket......and for the record I'm layin me money on you laddy...you been at this alot longer than he...thats of couse unless his butler/manager sneaks in and hits you wiff a world class cable or somfinn....then all bets are off!!

Pogue

Pogue -- I understand the attempt at humour but I taught some German students in my class this year and I would try and avoid Nazi humour -- leave that to Mel Brooks. And Seals well when i lived in Australia way back people would say "Save a Seal Club a Canadian" Sadly the act of a few ruin it for the majority (then again the majority didn't stop it so...)

Florian

10-10-2005, 01:36 PM

To thepogue (member.php?u=230024):

For a german to be called a Nazi or for someone to suggest that i slip into a SS uniform is the most bitter and disturbing comment one can make. Bitter because the war is over for 50 years and i have never ever hurt another human being, or have family members in the past that did. Please take a good look at the past and think again about that comment!
Its disturbing how people can still connect a 22 year old with the hate crimes from countrymen many years back. If i were that narrow minded i could come up with many suggestions to you on how you should were the white clothing and masks and burn the houses of black people. That is not too long ago either! But i am not narrow minded and would not introduce this kind of discussion on here.

To RGA. I am very glad that you are willing to give the speaker technology another try. Morricab is a friend of mine and i visited him in Zurich many times and he also was at my home 3 times now. Our friend Allen Wreight from Vacuumstate Technology brought his 300b monoblocks and Realtime PreAmplifier over here and you CAN run a DIVA with it. The DIVA has a sensitivity of 92db with the new ribbons from Graz and a impedance of a 5ohms with a drop no lower than 3. Hybrid amplifiers from Pathos, Acusticplan, Jadis and Sphinx are the ticket for these systems. Amplifiers from Krell, Bryston, Aragon, Pass etc.. are all great but they are too hard for me too thats why i sold the Krell stuff! You can drive the DIVA to exess of 115db in a 40m2 room and they are quite efficent. Granted the original Scintilla and Fullrange are hell to drive with impedances as low as 0.2ohm! You need to buy amplifiers from TubeResearch or the big Jadis for these speakers which are very expensive. But the big Apogees were not meant to be bought for little money in the first place. Morricab heard my DIVAS and said that they were one of the best 5 speakers he has heard in his life! He reviews for Positive Feedback and his girlfriend plays a 4 million dollar Stratovarius for a Swiss Orchestra. The AudioNote speakers as you said are picky about placement too which is obvious when you look at the boundry gain which they need to develop the right bealance and power in the room. It surely is a interest way to design a speaker and can work if all equations fit. I have a strong node at 33Hz in my room which i had to correct over 22db! I can control that on the DIVA through the passive crossover which alows me to select the "strength" of the tweeter, upper midrange, midrange and bass plus i can control the dip with the distance to the backwall. If i had the AudioNote speakers in my room with a 22db gain at 33Hz i would be having a very hard time to get them to be balanced. So it really depends on the room too. The big Apogees are giants with heights over 6ft tall where the bass panel alone moved over a square meter of air. They need very large room and lots of space to develop their sound. Moving them by inches is needed. They react to cable changes, amplifier changes, source changes very strongly so if you any kind of inbalance its something in the chain.

I am glad that we have this thread turning into the right direction now.

Cheers

Florian

GMichael

10-10-2005, 01:55 PM

Hmm.....

RGA & Flo being nice to each other? Is there an earthquake coming? See, all you guys needed was a common adversary. Good work thepogue.

I'm sure you all know that I'm joking. It's good to see you two burry the hatchet.

JohnMichael

10-10-2005, 02:19 PM

thepogue

10-10-2005, 03:26 PM

sorry for my insensitivity but it was really all ment in fun (it never crossed my mind that you are/were German, I thought you were from NC living overseas)....I was suggesting you and RGA get into wrestling where everyone has a "theme" hence the costumes, it's mostly fake and for fun. But more that anything else I was hoping for a reality check for this thread and OUR hobby. Sorry it came at the expense of your feelings. Again my apologies.

Pogue

Florian

10-10-2005, 03:31 PM

Accepted :p

I am a german, but i lived 6 years in Houston Texas and 9 month in NC.

-Flo

thepogue

10-10-2005, 03:45 PM

hmmmm...so do you have a soft spot for cowboys?

:p

Pogue

(disclaimer: the photo is of an wrestler, who in which the above attempt of humor suggests, if not implies, that you might have a future as a cowboy wrestler as opposed to the former ill founded suggested charioteer)

Florian

10-10-2005, 03:51 PM

I am more for this :D

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/UA8876.jpg

GMichael

10-11-2005, 06:51 AM

I am more for this :D

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/UA8876.jpg

This get my vote too.

GMichael

10-11-2005, 06:53 AM

Ya but now I need a new hobby!

Don't worry. There are plenty of others fighting on another thread. We can lurk there for a spell.

Peter Duminy

10-11-2005, 08:55 AM

RGA-

I will phone around today and see if a dealer here has a half decent listening room. The last good demo I heard was at the original Sound Room on West Broadway/Dunbar, and they have moved now. Agreed about the B&W 801's sounding so variable here, they need lots of room to breathe. :)

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 08:57 AM

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 08:58 AM

Don't worry. There are plenty of others fighting on another thread. We can lurk there for a spell.

I was busy polishing my Earth shoes, did i miss anything?

GMichael

10-11-2005, 09:06 AM

I was busy polishing my Earth shoes, did i miss anything?

Earth shoes? I think that I'm the one missing something. What are Earth shoes?

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 09:10 AM

Earth shoes? I think that I'm the one missing something. What are Earth shoes?

They are a negative heel shoe first popular in the 70's. They are still manufactured and I am still wearing them. They also offer some hemp clothing. www.earth.us

GMichael

10-11-2005, 09:12 AM

They are a negative heel shoe first popular in the 70's. They are still manufactured and I am still wearing them. They also offer some hemp clothing.

Hemp clothing? Now your talking. Let's burn some.

Florian

10-11-2005, 10:52 AM

Hemp clothing? Now your talking. Let's burn some.
Way ahead of you

http://images.postersupply.com/MIG/jpgs/RAR00563.jpg

GMichael

10-11-2005, 11:03 AM

They are a negative heel shoe first popular in the 70's. They are still manufactured and I am still wearing them. They also offer some hemp clothing. www.earth.us

I like the Dartmouth in bark brown. How's my taste?

GMichael

10-11-2005, 11:04 AM

Way ahead of you

http://images.postersupply.com/MIG/jpgs/RAR00563.jpg

Hey, don't bogart that. Pass it to the left. Poke-n-pass dude.

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 12:05 PM

I like the Dartmouth in bark brown. How's my taste?

Pretty good taste. I have the Aspen, Harvard and my next pair will be the Fairfields.

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 12:08 PM

Way ahead of you

http://images.postersupply.com/MIG/jpgs/RAR00563.jpg

You inspired me to fire up the.....turntable and play some Marley. Of course no good stuff. I will have to settle for single malt scotch or a nice martini.

GMichael

10-11-2005, 12:11 PM

Pretty good taste. I have the Aspen, Harvard and my next pair will be the Fairfields.

Not bad. What colors?

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 12:20 PM

Not bad. What colors?

I have the Aspens in brown, the Harvards in black and the Fairfields will be in alpaca. I guess this thread is now about shoes.

Bob Marley is singing No woman no cry.

Florian

10-11-2005, 12:23 PM

I have Peter Frampton in my room while i am trying to beat this stupid photoshop software.

:cool:

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 12:28 PM

I have Peter Frampton in my room while i am trying to beat this stupid photoshop software.

:cool:

Live or recorded?

Florian

10-11-2005, 12:37 PM

Live! :cool:

GMichael

10-11-2005, 12:39 PM

Live! :cool:

Tell him I said hi, and why doesn't he ever call?

Florian

10-11-2005, 12:44 PM

Tell him I said hi, and why doesn't he ever call?
Ok, i will. You can visit him here in germany if you want.

-Flo

GMichael

10-11-2005, 12:50 PM

Ok, i will. You can visit him here in germany if you want.

-Flo

Sorry, as much as I'd love to hear your system I just don't have the cash flow right now. The new house thing is a bit draining on my account.

So what's he doing there? Checking out your equipment?

Florian

10-11-2005, 12:53 PM

Sorry, as much as I'd love to hear your system I just don't have the cash flow right now. The new house thing is a bit draining on my account.

So what's he doing there? Checking out your equipment?
We are just here chillin, having a fee bavarian beers. LOL! Well, i woke up this morning with one hell of a head cold. So i have the lights dim, Peter is singing and i am writing the graphics and info site in the planar section.

-Flo

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 12:55 PM

Live! :cool:

Excellent!

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 01:20 PM

We are just here chillin, having a fee bavarian beers. LOL! Well, i woke up this morning with one hell of a head cold. So i have the lights dim, Peter is singing and i am writing the graphics and info site in the planar section.

-Flo

Since we have talked about shoes how about recomending some good Bavarian Beers. I live near a good store that stocks beers from all over the world but I tend to buy on recomendations. Tell me your favorites if you would. Thanks

Florian

10-11-2005, 01:29 PM

JohnMichael

10-11-2005, 01:38 PM

Well we have a brewery 5 minutes from my house :D

Other ones are Untersbacher Pilsner and Untersbacher Hefeweizen. Try to find a good beer from Holland called Hoegaarden :cool:

Here goes a little joke= We from germany like to bring our own beer, since we think your american beer is like making love in a canoo. Its ****ing close to water !

Just kidding :D

I think you joke is true for a lot of the major manufacturers. I will of course start using that joke when I meet up with some of my beer drinking friends. I get a lot of sh!t from beer drinkers when I order wine.

GMichael

10-11-2005, 01:40 PM

Well we have a brewery 5 minutes from my house :D

Other ones are Untersbacher Pilsner and Untersbacher Hefeweizen. Try to find a good beer from Holland called Hoegaarden :cool:

Here goes a little joke= We from germany like to bring our own beer, since we think your american beer is like making love in a canoo. Its ****ing close to water !

Just kidding :D

A lot of us feel the same way about American beer. Give me a Guinnes any day over a
watered down substitute.

GMichael

10-11-2005, 01:43 PM

I think you joke is true for a lot of the major manufacturers. I will of course start using that joke when I meet up with some of my beer drinking friends. I get a lot of sh!t from beer drinkers when I order wine.

Nothing wrong with a good wine. But some people think it means that you're easy. I think it just means that you like to try different things. Hmm... some may argue that those are the same.

Florian

10-11-2005, 01:52 PM

I once drank a 6 pack from Budweiser in the US and was wondering what the big deal was :D Anyways, wine is very good. Supposely increases the sexual performance too. So some nice music, some good wine a hot babe will be the ticket.

http://www.apogeeclub.de/audioreview/cool.jpg

gonefishin

10-11-2005, 07:46 PM

A lot of us feel the same way about American beer. Give me a Guinnes any day over a
watered down substitute.

now that's just silly talk from a person who obviously doesn't know beer...or at least good beer.

sorry to get so RGA Vs Flo with you ;)

enjoy the beer!

Bernd

10-12-2005, 02:41 AM

Hi Guys,
Beer and music-now we're talking.
Everytime I go home to Berlin I try and bring a couple of crates of "Schultheiss Pilsner" back with me,one of the nicest beers around. Also I agree with Flo about the dutch beer "Hoegaarden", but in my mind at the very top is the original "Budweiser Budvar" from the Czech Republic. Try and get that.
I also drink red wine and found that if you want to let the house rock a couple of beers is best and a good bottle of red more for the quiet moments.
But back to the music with a little caution "Don't drink and spin".

Keep rocking

Bernd

GMichael

10-12-2005, 04:55 AM

now that's just silly talk from a person who obviously doesn't know beer...or at least good beer.

sorry to get so RGA Vs Flo with you ;)

enjoy the beer!

OK, I'll ask. What beer do you like? Or what beer do you feel is good?

Which one of us gets to be RGA, and who get's to be Flo?
I'd like to make sure that I stay in character.

Florian

10-12-2005, 05:04 AM

OK, I'll ask. What beer do you like? Or what beer do you feel is good?

Which one of us gets to be RGA, and who get's to be Flo?
I'd like to make sure that I say in character.
That's a tough one, since none of you write a 10000 character reply :D

GMichael

10-12-2005, 05:10 AM

That's a tough one, since none of you write a 10000 character reply :D

I was thinking the same thing. We can't really have two Flo's fighting. And if you stick around that will make three. There has to be a law against that somewhere.
One of us could always copy and paste something from a beer website to fill up the extra space.

PAT.P

10-12-2005, 05:15 AM

Florian

10-12-2005, 05:16 AM

I start!!

http://alzira.canalblog.com/images/HPIM0719.JPG

Florian

10-12-2005, 05:18 AM

Find a hot babe before the drinking start or else what look like a 10 might not be the next morning.
HAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

But then not everyone could feel like a winner, for at least one night! :D

JohnMichael

10-12-2005, 06:58 AM

It's good to see the beer discussion has continued. I do agree we would find it hard to write 10000 words about beer. If we drank as we typed the text would become less coherent as we rambled. I guess it happens even if some are not drinking and just typing too much.

jrflanne

10-13-2005, 07:42 PM

Budvar is marked in the US as Czechvar now. Quite nice but not nearly as good as fresh but what European pilsners are?

Hi Guys,
Beer and music-now we're talking.
Everytime I go home to Berlin I try and bring a couple of crates of "Schultheiss Pilsner" back with me,one of the nicest beers around. Also I agree with Flo about the dutch beer "Hoegaarden", but in my mind at the very top is the original "Budweiser Budvar" from the Czech Republic. Try and get that.
I also drink red wine and found that if you want to let the house rock a couple of beers is best and a good bottle of red more for the quiet moments.
But back to the music with a little caution "Don't drink and spin".

Keep rocking

Bernd

gonefishin

10-14-2005, 06:32 AM

OK, I'll ask. What beer do you like? Or what beer do you feel is good?

Which one of us gets to be RGA, and who get's to be Flo?
I'd like to make sure that I stay in character.

Hi GMicheal :)

*shudddddder* When I made that comment, I never thought of actually labeling each of us one of them :eek:

ok...never mind all that! My appologies ;)

WHat Beer do I like?

Tons of different types. But I rarly drink more than one to three beers at any one occasion any more. I enjoy sitting back and having a nice beer. But I enjoy brewing a nice cup of coffee too.

My favorite beer is really an evolution of the "taste I'm in" at the time and how my taste has evolved (or...at times...devolved).

One of my all time favorite (espeicially fresh on tap at location) is Goose Island beers. Pretty much pick any flavor/type you want from their "standard" Honker's Ale to (at the pub) their nitrogen IPA...smooth as silk yet layered with flavors. Down one of these with their homemade chips, and a peppercorn crusted burger toped with whole roasted garlic cloves, dussledorf mustard, stilton blue cheese on a pumpernickle bun with an oatmeal stout...*mouth watering*...yumm!

Samual Adams is another "stand-by" that is easy to get...and has some decent flavor. Decent...but I'd much prefer a Goose Island, Pete's Wicked Ale, Sierra Nevada (if I'm in a hoppy mood) or my favorite SAmuel Smith Taddy Porter, Oatmeal Stout or a sippin' double bock...on and on.

Add into this mix other brews from around the world. Guinnes has always just fallen into the mix for me as being one of the crowd...not one to stand above it. But, no...not bad by any means. But there are certainly some great beers to try both from all over the world. But no...I'd stay away from the big brew names here in the US as well, if your going after taste ;)

*cheers*

dan

GMichael

10-14-2005, 06:56 AM

Hi GMicheal :)

*shudddddder* When I made that comment, I never thought of actually labeling each of us one of them :eek:

ok...never mind all that! My appologies ;)

WHat Beer do I like?

Tons of different types. But I rarly drink more than one to three beers at any one occasion any more. I enjoy sitting back and having a nice beer. But I enjoy brewing a nice cup of coffee too.

My favorite beer is really an evolution of the "taste I'm in" at the time and how my taste has evolved (or...at times...devolved).

One of my all time favorite (espeicially fresh on tap at location) is Goose Island beers. Pretty much pick any flavor/type you want from their "standard" Honker's Ale to (at the pub) their nitrogen IPA...smooth as silk yet layered with flavors. Down one of these with their homemade chips, and a peppercorn crusted burger toped with whole roasted garlic cloves, dussledorf mustard, stilton blue cheese on a pumpernickle bun with an oatmeal stout...*mouth watering*...yumm!

Samual Adams is another "stand-by" that is easy to get...and has some decent flavor. Decent...but I'd much prefer a Goose Island, Pete's Wicked Ale, Sierra Nevada (if I'm in a hoppy mood) or my favorite SAmuel Smith Taddy Porter, Oatmeal Stout or a sippin' double bock...on and on.

Add into this mix other brews from around the world. Guinnes has always just fallen into the mix for me as being one of the crowd...not one to stand above it. But, no...not bad by any means. But there are certainly some great beers to try both from all over the world. But no...I'd stay away from the big brew names here in the US as well, if your going after taste ;)

*cheers*

dan

OH man, you just made me sooo hungry. I like a stout with a good pizza. Sam Adams just never did it for me but a lot of my friends love it. I'll have to give a few of your choices a try. What do I have to loose?

As far as the coffee, yeah, I drink more coffee than beer these days. I like the Kona blend. Whole beans so that I can grind up just enough fresh. I get the chocolate beans as well. These are gross by themselves, but 2 or 3 beans mixed in with the Kona is nice once in awhile. After I grind them up I sprinkle just a bit of cinnamon into the grinds. Not too much though, just a sprinkle. I used to put this in after it was brewed but if you put it in the grinds first the filter takes out that gritty feeling you get at the bottom of the cup.
Sometimes a little whipped cream in the cup is good. I like it in the cup first instead of on top. It never hurts to put a little Irish cream in your cup as well. heh heh heh...

Are we off topic enough yet?

Florian

10-14-2005, 06:58 AM

No! Lets discuss hot women. What is your fav. celeb? I'd take Angelina Jolie

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:13 AM

Hi,

You made me hungry.
I too don't drink more than 1-3 beers at any one sitting. I do like a good strong black coffee though. I am drinking Tchibo's-Kenya Dark Roast at the moment (does my insomnia no good at all).

Peace

Bernd

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:19 AM

Flo,

I take Helen Hunt as she is in "As good as it get's". Natural.

Bernd

GMichael

10-14-2005, 07:22 AM

Angie and Hellen are good choice. I would pick Jessica Alba though.

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:25 AM

Three guys three different choices. All you need to know.

Bernd

Florian

10-14-2005, 07:27 AM

Naaaa!!!! :p:p

http://www.famous-people-search.com/helen_hunt/helen_hunt_pictures/helen_hunt_002.jpghttp://www.vovanek.nm.ru/wallpapers/angelina_jolie/004_%28angelina_jolie%29_1024x768.jpg

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:29 AM

Yes!!!!!!!

GMichael

10-14-2005, 07:29 AM

Naaaa!!!! :p:p

http://www.famous-people-search.com/helen_hunt/helen_hunt_pictures/helen_hunt_002.jpghttp://www.vovanek.nm.ru/wallpapers/angelina_jolie/004_%28angelina_jolie%29_1024x768.jpg

Dude, don't you have smaller pictures? These throw my screen all outta whack.

JohnMichael

10-14-2005, 07:33 AM

I have nothing to add to the current discussion. Question about coffee, what is everyones' favorite way of brewing coffee? Sorry to change the subject.

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:37 AM

Well done for changing direction!
I roast my beans in a stainless steel bowl over the cooker for a couple of minutes. Then grind them very fine and brew them in a Siemens Perculater.
Black no milk or sugar in a proper coffee cup. Thats it.

Bernd

GMichael

10-14-2005, 07:40 AM

I have nothing to add to the current discussion. Question about coffee, what is everyones' favorite way of brewing coffee? Sorry to change the subject.

I wouldn't get offended if you said who your favorite actor is.

I just use the usual drip coffee type. Do you still use the old style brewers?
Don't give any to an old lady in your drive threw window.
Water boils at 212F. That lady complained that her coffee was 180F. Too hot for her.

Florian

10-14-2005, 07:41 AM

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:44 AM

Sure can. It's designed by F.A.Porsche. How about that!!

Bernd

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:45 AM

Favourite Actor-Jack Nicholson-Hands down!
But would you like to live next to him?

Bernd

Florian

10-14-2005, 07:46 AM

Neat! Got a picture :p

Florian

10-14-2005, 07:47 AM

Favourite Actor-Jack Nicholson-Hands down!
But would you like to live next to him?

Bernd
Mine would be Samuel L. Jackson, Bruce Willis, Angelina Jolie (not the acting) and John Travolta and some others

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:48 AM

Sure-can take one. Just don't know how to put them in this message.
I am just a PC dwarf. Surprise myself sometimes.

bernd

GMichael

10-14-2005, 07:49 AM

Sure can. It's designed by F.A.Porsche. How about that!!

Bernd

hmmm... Nice looking equiptment. Haven't seen a supplier in the US yet. I'll keep digging.
Thanks for this info.

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:51 AM

Believe or not - Amazon sell these.

Bernd

GMichael

10-14-2005, 07:53 AM

Believe or not - Amazon sell these.

Bernd

So far I've only found Amazon.UK selling these as well as a few other European sites.

Bernd

10-14-2005, 07:58 AM

They do brew an amazing cup of coffee, at the right temperature and look very cool to boot. I am sure Amazon U.K. would post to you.
It's the best coffee maker I have had.

Bernd

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:00 AM

They do brew an amazing cup of coffee, at the right temperature and look very cool to boot. I am sure Amazon U.K. would post to you.
It's the best coffee maker I have had.

Bernd

Grr.. looks like I'd have to buy from the UK and pay shipping here.

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:03 AM

I have nothing to add to the current discussion. Question about coffee, what is everyones' favorite way of brewing coffee? Sorry to change the subject.

So? What do you use?

Bernd

10-14-2005, 08:08 AM

Don't forget the different Voltage.

Bernd

P.S. Just opened a nice bottle of Valpolicella. Wishing you all a nice weekend!

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:22 AM

Don't forget the different Voltage.

Bernd

P.S. Just opened a nice bottle of Valpolicella. Wishing you all a nice weekend!

Forgot that. I should know better. The search continues. My Black&Decker will have to do for now.

Florian

10-14-2005, 08:45 AM

Forgot that. I should know better. The search continues. My Black&Decker will have to do for now.
I thought B&D only makes power tools!

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:50 AM

I thought B&D only makes power tools!

They make just about everything these days. Well, anything that has to do with appliances.

http://www.blackanddecker.co.uk/index.asp?frmFirst=True&EOF=False&mktid=2

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:53 AM

They make just about everything these days. Well, anything that has to do with appliances.

http://www.blackanddecker.co.uk/index.asp?frmFirst=True&EOF=False&mktid=2

Hmm... seems over there they don't sell much more than tools. Here in the US they sell more. At least from what I saw at first glance at the above site. Here is a US site.

http://www.blackanddeckerappliances.com/

GMichael

10-14-2005, 08:55 AM

Here is my baby.

http://www.blackanddeckerappliances.com/product-44.html

Florian

10-14-2005, 08:59 AM

Here is my baby.

http://www.blackanddeckerappliances.com/product-44.html
That is a neat unit. I dont drink much coffee, but water.

-Flo

GMichael

10-14-2005, 09:05 AM

That is a neat unit. I dont drink much coffee, but water.

-Flo

Good, coffee can stunt your growth. Whack off a couple of inches (from the top dude) and you'd only be normal sized giant. We can't have that now can we?

Florian

10-14-2005, 09:15 AM

Good, coffee can stunt your growth. Whack off a couple of inches (from the top dude) and you'd only be normal sized giant. We can't have that now can we?
Well i aint that big after all, 6'3" :D

GMichael

10-14-2005, 09:35 AM

Well i aint that big after all, 6'3" :D

Right, just a NORMAL giant.

6'2" to 6'4" is normal giant size
6'5" to 7' is giant, giant size
7'+ is run for you life from the monster size.

Bernd

10-14-2005, 09:58 AM

Just dived in. I am 6-4 after 20 years of coffee.

Bernd

JohnMichael

10-14-2005, 11:57 AM

gonefishin

10-14-2005, 12:02 PM

I'm really such a coffee novice that I can only share my experiences, much more so than give advice.

I did,however, get some help when I was looking to start buying better beans...and also get a new coffee pot.

Some things that I found that you did want in a proper brewed cup of drip coffee is correct temperature and cleanliness. Both of these reasons is why I went with a Chemex coffee pot. You boil the water yourself in a pot over the stove...and then lidle it into the filter. I simply keep a boil going and move it over slowly to keep between 190-200f temps. But you never get any nasty build-up inside the coffee machine that leads to bitter taste. It may not be a perfect system. But it brews a consistantly nice cup of brewed coffee, letting the bean take the form of the flavor...not the pipes ;) My next venture will be a press.

http://www.koffeeklatsch.com/products_chemex_coffeemaker.asp
http://www.jeremiahspick.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=103
http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.vacuum.shtml
http://store.yahoo.com/tucano/olympiacremina2.html

speaking of...I need to order me some more beans...does anyone have some favorites to share?

thanks,

dan

GMichael

10-14-2005, 12:06 PM

I am back. GMichael I am currently using a mr. coffee which is why I am searching for something better. It was a house warming gift so I felt the need to use it until I could claim it stopped fuctioning. I am only 6ft. tall but I do wish coffee could stunt the growth of the waistline.

WTF! Am I the only one on this board under 6 feet?

You don't like your Mr.Coffee? Does he not make you good coffee?
I haven't actually "perked" coffee in many years. The auto drip has served me well though.

Did you have favorite actors to add? Bruce Willis will get my vote.

GMichael

10-14-2005, 12:11 PM

JohnMichael

10-14-2005, 12:28 PM

WTF! Am I the only one on this board under 6 feet?

You don't like your Mr.Coffee? Does he not make you good coffee?
I haven't actually "perked" coffee in many years. The auto drip has served me well though.

Did you have favorite actors to add? Bruce Willis will get my vote.

Making coffee is one of my jobs. The tip about cleaning the machine is one I think I will start to follow. So you don't season a coffee maker. lol

No real favorites come to mind but I would like the oppurtunity to trash Tom Cruise. I have only watched him in a few movies and I could always think of someone who could have done a better job. His latest comments about depression even pissed off Oprah. He is impressed with himself. Interview with a Vampire could have been so much better.

GMichael

10-14-2005, 12:52 PM

Making coffee is one of my jobs. The tip about cleaning the machine is one I think I will start to follow. So you don't season a coffee maker. lol

No real favorites come to mind but I would like the oppurtunity to trash Tom Cruise. I have only watched him in a few movies and I could always think of someone who could have done a better job. His latest comments about depression even pissed off Oprah. He is impressed with himself. Interview with a Vampire could have been so much better.

One of your jobs? Like you do the dusting and make the coffee while he does the laundry or mows the lawn?

HAHA, I liked Tom in Risky Business but not much sense then.
Not a big Oprah fan though.

JohnMichael

10-14-2005, 03:31 PM

One of your jobs? Like you do the dusting and make the coffee while he does the laundry or mows the lawn?

HAHA, I liked Tom in Risky Business but not much sense then.
Not a big Oprah fan though.

I have the indoor duties and he does all the outdoor work. We do share cooking duties. I order the pizza and he throws out the box. How tall are you. Mr. Outdoors is 5 ft 9 in.

I found out about Oprah being upset from my mother telling me about it. I guess Oprah used to be a fan of his. Of course I have to watch Ellen, membership requirements. lol

thepogue

10-14-2005, 04:19 PM

ok....first for the Brew

Sam Adams Cherry Wheat (on tap) is the finest beer I've ever tasted I know most "hard core" beer drinkers don't like flavored beers but this ones done right with just a hint of cherry and all in all my favorate beers are normally wheat beers.

coffee - being a fire captain and a career firefighter for over 27 years it's required for me to be able to drink 47 gallons of java every shift ;) here at work some guys brew a pot BEOFRE bedtime! no me to be honest I do all my coffee drining before 10ish. we use a brew-master and shes cookin' most of the day.

my favorate actors are John Travolta, Dusten Hoffmen, Pachino and Deniro.

TV- I'm not at all a TV guy...8 to 10 hours a week and mostly while I'm at work at my desk- I watch Cops, Judge Joe Brown/Judy and Sopranos & Deadwood when I'm crashing @ the fire station. BTW we work 24 hr shifts so I spend 72 hrs. a week here and at least every other week we get mandated 24 so it's 72 hrs one week and 96 the next...so when I'm home I never watch the tube, maybe 2 or 3 hours a month but spend 10 hours a week listening to my two channel....lovin' every minute of it!!

ok...my take on beer, coffee and TV/movies.

Peace, Pogue

GMichael

10-14-2005, 04:45 PM

I have the indoor duties and he does all the outdoor work. We do share cooking duties. I order the pizza and he throws out the box.

Not a bad deal.

How tall are you. Mr. Outdoors is 5 ft 9 in..

I am only 5'8" But it works for me.

I have to watch Ellen, membership requirements. lol

I like Ellen, but I could never be more than an honorary(sp) member of your club. She was great as the absent minded fishie.

GMichael

10-14-2005, 04:47 PM

thepogue

10-14-2005, 05:48 PM

oh...thats right...I think he's in training for his up-comming fight/match..lol

good ole RGA...

Pogue

gonefishin

10-14-2005, 09:13 PM

This really is one of RGA's better threads ;) (just kiddin')

Pogue...when ya gonna come over and let me buy you an outmeal stout with a stilton burger (see above post) from Goose Island in Chicago?

*tip...tip*

dan

drseid

10-15-2005, 01:14 AM

speaking of...I need to order me some more beans...does anyone have some favorites to share?

thanks,

dan

Ah, coffee and audio... my two favorites. Now we are talking. :-)

Try this link http://store.yahoo.com/urthcaffe/ to Urth Caffe, and order either their most popular blend -- Manhattan Mudd (very dark, but super smooth), or my personal favorite coffee blend... World Peace. World Peace is a mix of light and dark beans that is *perfectly* balanced. These coffees are both organics and pricey, but believe me when I say they are definitely worth every penny.

Other highly recommended blends are Dancing Goats and Omar's Organic blend from Batdorf and Bronson http://www.batdorf.com .

And finally a blend my company is about to sell that I really like and can recommend (and no this link is not to my company's web site, but instead directly to our roaster) http://kaladi.com . They have an organic blend called Red Goat that is a fabulous rich dark roast that is quite amazing.

I personally would rank the Urth Coffees first, then the Batdorf and finally the Kaladi, but all are superb.

---Dave

JohnMichael

10-15-2005, 02:10 PM

Has anyone seen a post by RGA? I hope we did not drive him off. I would hate to lose anyone from the AR.

Florian

10-15-2005, 02:20 PM

Don't worry he is not that easy to scare off. Maybe he just rialized its better to go out and have fun then waste his time arguing over stupid speakers in a online forum ;)
Maybe he needs to study for test in school?

-Flo

GMichael

10-15-2005, 04:26 PM

Maybe he's listening to music, instead of talking about it.

Florian

10-15-2005, 04:33 PM

I am listening to the Mark Levinson Refernce disc (live at Redrose Music) and its wonderfull.

-Flo

gonefishin

10-15-2005, 05:30 PM

Certainly wish him well with whatever he's doin'!

mAybe listening to some music after spending some quality time studying with a good cup of coffee getting ready to drink one of his favorite brews :)

here's to ya RGA *cheers*

dan

JohnMichael

10-16-2005, 05:38 AM

Listening to music oh yeah thats what this is all about. I do not have a lap top but maybe I could move the computer into the sweet spot?

Florian

10-16-2005, 05:51 AM

Thats what i do, sit in the sweetspot with the laptop infront. Wonderfull! :p

JohnMichael

10-16-2005, 11:50 AM

Thats what i do, sit in the sweetspot with the laptop infront. Wonderfull! :p

The best of both worlds.

JohnMichael

10-16-2005, 11:52 AM

I hope GMichael is okay with all that rain they have been getting. I have not checked the weather lately but they had rain about 9 days straight.

GMichael

10-16-2005, 12:28 PM

Thanks for the thought JM. I am OK. We only got a few inches of water in the basement. Many others didn't get away so lucky. I spent most of today going over the carpet with a wet-vac. Took a break to watch my Giants loose. (The dumb bunnies they are) Yesterday I drove out to PA to check the lot we're building on. It seems to have made it through without any visible problems.
Thought I'd stop in and say hi for a bit.
So how's it going? Is Flo staying out of trouble? Anyone heard from RGA?

Florian

10-16-2005, 12:53 PM

Yeah staying out of trouble....some people are trashing me tough in my "personality thread". But just amusing, nothing serious.

-Flo

PS: Still raining?

thepogue

10-16-2005, 12:56 PM

now if my Pats can "do-it" in Mile High!

Pogue

GMichael

10-16-2005, 02:12 PM

Yeah staying out of trouble....some people are trashing me tough in my "personality thread". But just amusing, nothing serious.

-Flo

PS: Still raining?

It finally stopped. But now there's this big orange thing in the sky. It seems bright and gives off heat. Not sure what it is.

gonefishin

10-16-2005, 06:32 PM

Ah, coffee and audio... my two favorites. Now we are talking. :-)

Try this link http://store.yahoo.com/urthcaffe/ to Urth Caffe, and order either their most popular blend -- Manhattan Mudd (very dark, but super smooth), or my personal favorite coffee blend... World Peace. World Peace is a mix of light and dark beans that is *perfectly* balanced. These coffees are both organics and pricey, but believe me when I say they are definitely worth every penny.

Other highly recommended blends are Dancing Goats and Omar's Organic blend from Batdorf and Bronson http://www.batdorf.com .

And finally a blend my company is about to sell that I really like and can recommend (and no this link is not to my company's web site, but instead directly to our roaster) http://kaladi.com . They have an organic blend called Red Goat that is a fabulous rich dark roast that is quite amazing.

I personally would rank the Urth Coffees first, then the Batdorf and finally the Kaladi, but all are superb.

---Dave

Thanks! I did just order some coffee, so I'll be good for a little bit. But I usually don't order large quantities. I'll try some of your recommendations on my next order.

thanks,
dan

GMichael

10-17-2005, 04:56 AM

now if my Pats can "do-it" in Mile High!

Pogue

Thank G.d the weekend is over.

Bernd

10-17-2005, 05:42 AM

Hi,

Is the big orange thing still with you. It has disapeared from here. We have rain.
I think it's time to brew up.
Hope you all had a nice weekend. What tunes were played?

Peace

Bernd

GMichael

10-17-2005, 05:58 AM

Hi,

Is the big orange thing still with you. It has disapeared from here. We have rain.
I think it's time to brew up.
Hope you all had a nice weekend. What tunes were played?

Peace

Bernd

It seems to still be up there. It peaks out from arround the clouds now and then. Any idea what that is? I think I remember seeing it before, but it was so long ago that my memory fails me. Is it safe to go outside?
All brewed up. Drinking Kona from my Mickey Mouse thermos as I type, so forgive my spelling.
Didn't get to play many tunes this weekend. Spent most of my time drying out and disinfecting the basement.
Hope that orange thing comes out for you soon.

Bernd

10-17-2005, 06:15 AM

I am missing it. We just started to get dry ground and I took a chance and stepped outside-really liked it.
All brewed up here too.
Got the new Eric Clapton-Back Home on Friday. Listened to it over the weekend. Great recording.
Sorry to hear about your drying out operation. In view of this I don't mind if the B.O.T. stays with you for a while longer.
Take it easy

Bernd

GMichael

10-17-2005, 06:46 AM

That B.O.T. seems very big. I don't mind sharing it.

We're on page 13 now. Is that bad luck? What's the record?

Piece out Cub Scout..

Bernd

10-17-2005, 06:52 AM

GMichael

10-17-2005, 07:39 AM

Thanks,
Once you finished with it just push it over here with a big stick.
I don't know what the record is maybe it means that it's time for some serious word fight again.
Gotta go and tend to the puppies. Take a look if you like dogs: www.waldmeister.co.uk

Later

Bernd

Cool link. Hot puppies.
Can't seem to find a stick long enough.
Fighting links always seem go on longer than the friendly ones. What does that say about the human race?

Bernd

10-17-2005, 07:46 AM

GMichael

10-17-2005, 07:56 AM

That the human race has the Magic Touch to ***k things up and are rather less good at keeping them.Maybe the human Race is run?
Back to the puppies.
Hope you find a stick soon. Getting dark here.

Bernd

Hmmm.... still can't reach it. Even got up on our roof. I do have a remote for it. But it won't send it back to you. It will only send it foreword. I marked you down for tomorrow morning.

Bernd

10-17-2005, 09:13 AM

Please don't forget. Awfully dark here. I think I better listen to some tunes.

Bernd

JohnMichael

10-17-2005, 09:16 AM

Bernd thanks for the puppy link. I have been wanting a dog but I am afraid it will become as neurotic as I am. Plus I am not a good disciplinarian. I would also have problems with puppy chew marks on my antiques. In my family the dogs graduate from training but we are traditionaly held back.

GMichael I am glad the sun is still shining on you. A good 1:10 bleach water mixture is good for the basement and it will stop the growth of mold. You could use that Bose wireless system in your basement to have tunes while you scrub.

I am glad they have let this thread go on for so long. Each time I post I am fearful that I will get a closed message or something. I do miss being antagonistic with the heated debates but enjoy checking in with everyone.

GMichael

10-17-2005, 10:24 AM

Using a 1:10 mix of Lysol & water. Plus more Lysol in a spray bottle for the room corners and bottoms of furniture. This is our third flood this year. We have a system now. But what a pain in the ars.
My "old as dust" Panasonic with the built in 8-track recorder is doing the duty. No components hooked up to it so the tuner is all there is. In fact, this thing's cheap-O-tuner picks up better than my new more expensive Yammie. What's up with that?

JohnMichael

10-18-2005, 08:53 AM

Still no RGA sightings.