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cgII
09-24-2005, 01:27 PM
Hello,

I bought a stereo last year and already I want to upgrade. I need some guidance though. I'm 21 yrs. old and a big fan of Hifi. I read the magazines every month and just love listening to music. I listen to R&B, Hip-Hop and Reggae

I'll start with my current setup:

Focal JMLab Chorus 707 "S" Bookshelf Speakers
Roksan Kandy MkIII Integrated Amplifier
PS Audio Prelude Speaker wire
Black Rhodium Interconenct

Now the source is an external soundcard for my laptop (Xitel Hifi link PRO). I know that this is not great, but it's really convinent (I live off Napster, the music download service)

Here is where the problem lies:

Though I am throughly satisfied with my speakers, I know they don't have the resolution and clarity of some slighty more expensive speakers. However, they have a big 7" cone and really have a great grip on the lower frequencies. In light of the music I listen to, I NEED those low end dynamics.

I listened to a great pair of speakers last year when I was shopping, (Epos M5) and was blown away by the sheer amounts of detail on offer. However these were relatively small speakers, and did not offer the bass I required.

Which of the following should I do?

-Buy a new pair of better bookshelves that offer a sufficient amount of bass.

-Buy new bookshelves that may not necessairly have all the bass I need (but offer better detail, resolution, and soundstaging than current speakers), but also purchase a subwoofer (I understand that REL acoustics make good, MUSICAL subwoofers, though I do like the small form factor of some of their american counterparts, I.E. Definitive Technologies SuperCube series and Bob Carvers Sunfire Series)

As far as price goes, I wouldn't want to spend more than 1000 CDN on the upgrade. (plus the money for the sale of my JMLabs.)

Finally, if you suggest option 2, which combination subwoofer/speakers would you recommend?

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to be through.
I noticed that there is a similar post (Bookshelves of Floorstanders) but I NEED bookshelves. I look forward to hearing your suggestions, cgII

Pat D
09-24-2005, 04:35 PM
Hello,

I bought a stereo last year and already I want to upgrade. I need some guidance though. I'm 21 yrs. old and a big fan of Hifi. I read the magazines every month and just love listening to music. I listen to R&B, Hip-Hop and Reggae

I'll start with my current setup:

Focal JMLab Chorus 707 "S" Bookshelf Speakers
Roksan Kandy MkIII Integrated Amplifier
PS Audio Prelude Speaker wire
Black Rhodium Interconenct

Now the source is an external soundcard for my laptop (Xitel Hifi link PRO). I know that this is not great, but it's really convinent (I live off Napster, the music download service)

Here is where the problem lies:

Though I am throughly satisfied with my speakers, I know they don't have the resolution and clarity of some slighty more expensive speakers. However, they have a big 7" cone and really have a great grip on the lower frequencies. In light of the music I listen to, I NEED those low end dynamics.

I listened to a great pair of speakers last year when I was shopping, (Epos M5) and was blown away by the sheer amounts of detail on offer. However these were relatively small speakers, and did not offer the bass I required.

Which of the following should I do?

-Buy a new pair of better bookshelves that offer a sufficient amount of bass.

-Buy new bookshelves that may not necessairly have all the bass I need (but offer better detail, resolution, and soundstaging than current speakers), but also purchase a subwoofer (I understand that REL acoustics make good, MUSICAL subwoofers, though I do like the small form factor of some of their american counterparts, I.E. Definitive Technologies SuperCube series and Bob Carvers Sunfire Series)

As far as price goes, I wouldn't want to spend more than 1000 CDN on the upgrade. (plus the money for the sale of my JMLabs.)

Finally, if you suggest option 2, which combination subwoofer/speakers would you recommend?

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to be through.
I noticed that there is a similar post (Bookshelves of Floorstanders) but I NEED bookshelves. I look forward to hearing your suggestions, cgII
I will try to deal with your questions first and then talk about some questions your post raises in my mind.

If your present speakers have enough bass, then your bass needs are not too demanding. You could get somewhat deeper bass with a good pair of bookshelf speakers from Energy, PSB, and Paradigm, and maybe Epos (I'm not familiar with their current line), though evidently not the Epos M5. This could well be a cheaper solution.

On the other hand, I myself use standmounts with satellites (though my standmounts have quite decent bass by themselves), and if you really want bass on a budget, well almost any decent subwoofer can out do most speakers in the deep bass.

Well, I'm not one to much believe in particular combinations of main speakers and subwoofers. Most any good subwoofer will match with most any decent speakers that need the help. I wish we had Canadian buyer's guides but UHF and AIG gave up on them some time ago, so it's hard to get Canadian prices. First, let's look at what you might find in a subwoofer. You could probably get a nice little 10" sub from Paradigm, PSB, Energy-Mirage, etc. for $400-500, that will do well down to below 30 Hz and have more output capability down there than many floorstanders.

I don't know what you can get an Epos M5 for, but selling your old speakers might keep you within budget. So, if you really like the M5, that would be a solution.

The way you describe your reactions to the speakers gets me thinking. On the one hand, you like the Focal JM-Lab 707 speakers you have--a speaker I am not familiar with--"thoroughly satisfied" are your words. So, they seem to be speakers high on pleasantness, speakers you enjoy listening to, nothing aggravating in the long term.

Now, with the Epos M5, I hear different language entirely, you are " blown away by the sheer amounts of detail on offer." Now, detail is a fine thing, and my own speakers show quite a lot of detail. But my question is, how are they on pleasantness? How will they be for long term listening day in and day out? Did you enjoy listening to them? If you think they are high on the pleasantness scale as well, then they're probably a good choice for you.

What other speakers have you listened to?

cgII
09-24-2005, 05:37 PM
Yeah, I guess that my post was a little unclear.

I AM satisfied with my current speakers, but am looking for even better. The problem I run into is that many higher end bookshelves sacrifice bass for a more open, detailled sound.

Basically I'm looking for better speakers as a whole, but they must perform well with deep bass as well. If such speakers don't exist, what combination of speakers/sub would you recommend?

As far as other speakers, I've tried some Dynaudio Audience 52's, which are definately better than my current speakers, but don't stack up when it comes to the low frequencies. I've also tried Quad 12L, 22L (no good, floorstanders), Monitor Audio S1, S2, B&W...

EDIT: I understand that you could get a inexpensive subwoofer, but many people belive that a cheap subwoofer does more harm than good.

Pat D
09-24-2005, 08:32 PM
Yeah, I guess that my post was a little unclear.

I AM satisfied with my current speakers, but am looking for even better. The problem I run into is that many higher end bookshelves sacrifice bass for a more open, detailled sound.

Basically I'm looking for better speakers as a whole, but they must perform well with deep bass as well. If such speakers don't exist, what combination of speakers/sub would you recommend?

As far as other speakers, I've tried some Dynaudio Audience 52's, which are definately better than my current speakers, but don't stack up when it comes to the low frequencies. I've also tried Quad 12L, 22L (no good, floorstanders), Monitor Audio S1, S2, B&W...

EDIT: I understand that you could get a inexpensive subwoofer, but many people belive that a cheap subwoofer does more harm than good.
Your Focal-JM Lab 707 S speakers are rated to 50 Hz, no doubt with useful bass below that, possibly below 40 Hz. They are also slightly over 19" high, rather larger than mini-monitor size. But I have never heard them or seen measurements for them, so I don't really have a good idea of what sort of bass response they have and can only guess.

Now the Epos M5 is a mini-monitor rated down to 60 Hz, no doubt with useful bass response below that. Now, I have seen measurements for it and judging from those, 60 Hz is a bit optimistic. The Energy C-3 is a nice mini-monitor and I think its bass is somewhat deeper. The Paradigm Studio 20 looks to be a very good mini-monitor, too, though I haven't heard the v. 3, and it has reasonable bass, too. But I doubt they will be able to match the bass response of your JM Labs, which are considerably larger, of course. So, if you go mini-monitors, they probably won't match the bass response you already have and you will need a subwoofer. I know it's quite a quandary.

Somewhat larger than your speakers, there is the Paradigm Studio 40, v. 3, which I have heard at some length. It is 22" high and has quite good bass response. But I think it's out of your price range.

You might consider getting some excellent mini-monitors now and getting a subwoofer later. To my mind, the deep bass isn't as important as the midrange, upper midrange and treble.

I've not had much difficulty to get decent subwoofers to perform well. Getting them to perform well is a matter of crossover setting and placement.

When I was a student, I had neither the time nor the money to worry about high fidelity. Besides, I was in a chorus which gave concerts and another group sang in church.

drseid
09-25-2005, 01:43 AM
The Legacy Audio Studios might fit the bill for the purposes you are looking for. They are mini-monitors rated down to 46hz, but they actually do not drop off as fast as many others below that level. They have what amounts to an 8 inch kevlar woofer (it used to be made by Focal/JM Labs, but I am not sure about the current model) mated to a non-attention grabbing titanium dome tweeter. Price new is about $1400 US, but used you can get them for between $600 and $800 US. These may be enough for your applications even without a sub, as they get pretty good bass response.

I would say they are not the last word in resolution (though good), but their dynamics are some of the best I have heard when it comes to mini-monitors, and those are most likely more important with your prefered music genres. As to their nature, they can be a bit on the bright/forward side, but not annoyingly so, IMO. Woodworking is superb if that is a factor.

I should mention that I used to own 5 of these previously, so I am pretty familiar with their sound.

Good luck,

---Dave

cgII
09-25-2005, 04:01 PM
Well I did a bit of research and maybe it's worth waiting until my budget increases. I saw some great reviews for ATC SCM 12's but they are easily 1400CDN. (Without the subwoofer, the ATC wouldn't go deep enough, but are said to be very revealing)

I don't like energy speakers. My father has a Surround sound with the older e:XL series and though it's GREAT for movies, it blows for music. And while shopping for with a friend for some speakers, I had to listen to the piss poor Energy Conaisseur Series (at least that's my opinion of them) Treble is harsh, vocals are muffled. Good dynamics, rythmical too, those are important qualities, but the cons were too great. My friend ended up with Monitor Audio Silver S6 (great, but a little heavy handed with bass, and it's also a little loose)

I've looked into Spendor, ATC, Dali, and haven't seen any bookshelves that could produce the bass I neeed, though they do have nice mid/highs.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Florian
09-25-2005, 04:09 PM
You need to make some sacrifices with your budget. Heck i have to make sacrifices and i own a speaker that cost 10.000$ used! By the way i can relate i am only 1 year older than you and if it were not for working my ass off for years i couldnt have bought them. I unfortunatly dont have rich parents like that biatch Paris Hilton.

1. Make a list from top to flop of your prioirities
2. Find out what is avaliable in your listening area
3. Listen with your electronics !
4. There is pretty much no bookshelf out there that will give you great low bass

A recommendation for you regardless of price is the Genesis IM-8200, the VMPS 626QR, B&W Nautilus Sig. bookshelf and the Sonus Faber Minima Amator. Those are the ones i know, there are others out there.

My personal pref. would be the Gen, the Nautilus and the VMPS. But you need to listen for yourself. If you like ribbons go for the VMPS, if you like nice mellow and warm sound go with the Nautilus and if you Hard beat US sound with a touch of european flair go with the Genesis.

Either way there are many great speakers out there, but all of them are a compromise. Either by budget, size, sound etc...take the one that matched best.

-Flo

noddin0ff
09-25-2005, 06:27 PM
I don't know what format or resolution the music you download from Napster is, but I'll bet that you'd see a far greater improvement buying a CD player and actual CD's in full resolution than you would in upgrading your speakers. I think your lack of clarity is in the signal your feeding them.

Florian
09-26-2005, 12:44 AM
I don't know what format or resolution the music you download from Napster is, but I'll bet that you'd see a far greater improvement buying a CD player and actual CD's in full resolution than you would in upgrading your speakers. I think your lack of clarity is in the signal your feeding them.
That could be the problem too, but a 320kbs MP3 is not that bad actually.

-Flo

cgII
09-26-2005, 05:22 AM
Yeah, I know that my source is not considered Hifi. Napster does compress them at a pretty low bitrate (128kbps). I, as many people in the hifi community, am tired of CD's shipping with only 1 or 2 decent tracks. I am afterall a student, and though my upgrade project may be expensive, I am quite happy to wait as long as it takes acheive my goal.

Seeing as everybody seems to agree that a bookshelf/sub combination is the only way to get the full range of frequencies (20hz-20000hz+), what could I do with say 1750$?

noddin0ff
09-26-2005, 06:14 AM
Flo, I'd agree that 320kbs is not that bad, but most downloadable music is 128kbs. On just about any system and certainly in the $ range cgII's system is in, 128kbs will suck; It will sound exactly as he describes--lacks detail. It will be obvious to anyone with an ear. An aside... at 320kbs you might as well go with lossless compression. 320kbs, IMO, doesn't save enough diskspace to make it worthwhile over lossless.

cgII, I know you have the upgrade bug, but I really don't think the upgrade will solve your problem. You can do terrific with $1750. You can likely stomp my system which would consist of 2 Paradigm 20s and a Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" sub (~$1400 retail) and I'm running them with a rather ordinary yamaha receiver that would sell new for around ~$250-300 now. Listening to compressed audio on my system is just frustrating, it's so obvious what is missing.

Do yourself a favor, you owe it to your self to at least borrow a friends CD player, buy one good CD in the realworld and compare to the same as downloaded...side by side. $1750 can buy a lot of good CD's at your local used CD shop, and still quite a few at full price.

Great speakers won't polish a turd.

Florian
09-26-2005, 07:18 AM
Yeah, if that those MP3's are in 128kbs than you owe it yourself to buy a good CD Player. Good recomendations are the Rega Planet 2000, TEAC VRDS 25x, Unison Research Unico CD (SN above 5000), or the Naims.

-Flo

cgII
09-26-2005, 01:09 PM
Maybe with the source I'm working with it would be unrealistic to acheive better quality. Now that I think of it, if I got a speaker that was MORE revealing, it would probably expose the Mp3s for what they really are: compressed audio.

I might have a go at listning to CD's, but my problem is that CD's will die eventually... the convenience of downloading songs is just too great.

I'll borrow my old man's CD player (Quad CD-P) and might even steal his surrounds (Quad 12L's) and see what's up. After all, my system is" worth" (new) nearly 3000 CDN. I paid maybe 2400CDN.

I'm still interested in Sub/Sat combos for approx 1500 dollars, but will definately plug the CDP in and see what if the source is where the problem lies.

noddin0ff
09-27-2005, 06:17 AM
Now that I think of it, if I got a speaker that was MORE revealing, it would probably expose the Mp3s for what they really are: compressed audio.

Bingo!


I might have a go at listning to CD's, but my problem is that CD's will die eventually... the convenience of downloading songs is just too great.

Yeah, I slowed for a while on my CD buying because of this concern. Then I realized that 1) anything I bought could be easily digitized if the format died, 2) any future format will be heavily copy protected, AND 3) CD players are cheap and (so far) everything that plays a disk has lots of backward compatibility. Another consideration--if you are a typical computer user--you will never backup your ENTIRE harddrive. One day your drive will fail. I'll still have my CD's at native resolution.


I'm still interested in Sub/Sat combos for approx 1500 dollars, but will definately plug the CDP in and see what if the source is where the problem lies.

I like the Paradigm 20's. The Studio 40's get much praise. If I had more $ at the time (or lived closer to Canada), I would've got the 40's. I listen to Jazz, Alt Rock, and Classical. I liked the Studio's for their tight accuracy. I'm not a big bass head. Your preferences might run different. But the studio's are quite punchy for bass within their extension limits.

Maybe post a new thread asking for specific Sub/Sat combos with a $ limit. I kinda side tracked this one with the MP3 discussion, sorry!

Florian
09-27-2005, 06:39 AM
Asking for help with a specific budget and room description is helpfull.

-Flo

cgII
09-27-2005, 03:06 PM
The current room is pretty small... though it should change within the next couple of years (I'm a student living in student quarters) It has carpeted floors, and the room is about 4x3 meters.

I gave it some thought and to replace the speakers for somthing SIGNIFICANTLY better, I would have to pay 1300-1500 for speakers alone. I've taken the time to listen to a decent CD player, and it does dramatically improve the overall sound quality.

I think that the best thing to do is invest in a subwoofer ( to dig depper ) and maybe get a CD player and convert to CD's.

If you have any paticular thoughts regarding my current arrangement, any advice is appreciated.

Greekguy
11-10-2005, 03:12 PM
The current room is pretty small... though it should change within the next couple of years (I'm a student living in student quarters) It has carpeted floors, and the room is about 4x3 meters.

I gave it some thought and to replace the speakers for somthing SIGNIFICANTLY better, I would have to pay 1300-1500 for speakers alone. I've taken the time to listen to a decent CD player, and it does dramatically improve the overall sound quality.

I think that the best thing to do is invest in a subwoofer ( to dig depper ) and maybe get a CD player and convert to CD's.

If you have any paticular thoughts regarding my current arrangement, any advice is appreciated.
cgll - If you're willing to spend a few more bucks, I believe the Paradigm Studio 40 v3's have recently come down in price, though I'm not sure by how much. But if you're willing to invest the extra cash to buy them, you won't be disappointed with the results. They have a great, wide-open soundstage and they image very well, not to mention bone-crushing bass with the right amount of power. Definitely one of the best speakers on the market in the sub-$1,500 range.

You could also try PSB, Mirage or Sinclair Audio as well, any Canadian designed bookshelf in your price range would do a good job. I can vouch for the Sinclairs personally, seeing as they're not very well known yet, but I own a pair of their SB-3600T Brighton Series floor speakers, and they're killer, especially for the $450 I paid for them. They do make bookshelf speakers too, and I'm sure they're every bit as detailed as my floor speakers.

I've also heard that Definitive makes some killer stuff in the $1,000 range too, so you may want to check them out as well, I've heard nothing but good stuff about Definitive.

T BOMB25
11-15-2005, 06:00 PM
Its understandable why you are so blown away by the Epos M5 they are clearly superior to everything at their pricepoint in timing and involvement and the extra great qualities that go along with them are just a increadible added bonus.One thing you should know they will be different as far as their bass power in your room,their port is tuned to 52htz,so expect a solid 42 to 45 htz in room response with room boundries.But you have a few more options in the Epos line if you want more bass,you could go with the new els 303s,but you will lose some detail from M series,but you will still have leagues more than most competitors.Option #3 you could buy the M5s still and buy the new els sub which is increadably musical with good punch down to about 25htz.The ultimate and best option would be is to get the M12.2s they will take care of your bass needs and in real room situations maybe not on paper go lower than the esl 303s with better bass quality.The M12.2s have everything you like in the M5,but bigger and better everywhere for $895,I dont know where you are,but if you are in the UK they are 459 pounds.So good luck if you like that sound stick with it,you certainly have a good ear if you like their sound.

Eric Z
11-16-2005, 03:44 AM
Save your cash! It sounds like you enjoy your set-up now. Take a few ladies out and enjoy your college life. Use the extra cash for a downpayment on a house when you get out of school. Then you can save and put the money into a DVD/CD player, nice receiver or separates and then speakers if you still think you need an upgrade.

Olivertmc
11-16-2005, 06:33 AM
I recently looked into purchasing either the EPOS M5's or NHT SB-3's. Listened to both and went with the NHT's - received them on Monday evening. I'm shocked by how wonderful they are, and also the amount of bass they produce. I have an SVS pb10 sub that was set WAY too high for these speakers and realized that very little is needed from the SVS for music listening. The NHT's list for $600 but got them for $400 from Acoustic Sound Designs. I would check them out as I think they may provide what you're looking for.