False wall and audio sound

[HAVIC]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

[Resident Loser]

...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

Pardon my questions, as I'm just trying to understand your intent.

Are you considering actually changing the room's perimeter so the speakers will be "inset" into the resulting alcoves?

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts. Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Something like this can also result in less than optimum results due to the sound corridor created.

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

jimHJJ(...FWIW, just my two cents...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Installing baffle walls is a common practice in THX certified rooms. I have done at least three installations using baffle walls that I can remember(I am sure there is more), and none of the problems that the individual above me listed ever showed up. While it must be carefully designed, it is doable. Toe in is accomodated by using a laser alignment tool during installation, and backwall reflections can be reduced or eliminated by acoustical foam. The process works much like in wall speakers. I have used THX certified speakers, and some studio monitors. Keep in mind that quite a few studio have soffit or baffle mounted speakers as part of their main monitoring systems.

Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

[HAVIC]

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Resident loser the above is what I was thinking of.

However after sir terrance statements it seems like it can be done but with careful planning. Thanks for that info sir terrance. If I go with a front projector I will research more into it. Right now my tv is doing the job, but I like the front projector for the future. A few of my friends have them and I like what they can do.

Later

[Resident Loser]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.


I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.


I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.


While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.


Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/sas/index.html

As for the rest of your question, the answer is theater design. I know this is a really new concept for you, but it is done everyday somewhere. Toe in, early reflections can all be compensated for, or eliminated. You have to carefully plan how you want everything to be positioned, and how it will look in the end.

I know you like the old tried and try way of doing things. That takes no brains or imagination to do. Hometheater can be taken from simplicity, to ultra complex. All it require is planning, planning, and more planning. Hometheater that use baffles walls with speakers recessed is not new. You will have some bass boost, but it is VERY easily tamed with a 1/3 octave eq. If a person wants to build a baffle wall to recess their speakers, they are just taking hometheater serveral steps up from the norm. Every issue you raised is easily dealt with if you understand what you are doing. When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

All of these theater use baffle walls so the speakers can be placed behind the screen.

http://www.tktheaters.com/gallery/

This might give you an idea of how it is done properly

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/history/010202-frontwall75percent.jpg

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/history/010309-pre_mounted_screen.jpg

Finished product

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/history/010424-stewart_microperf.jpg

[Resident Loser]

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.

And yet earlier:
If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Well, at least we now have a bit of specificity...your earlier response was shall we say a. er...vague, to the point of being downright misleading.

Also, That word "any"..."any"one reading your initial response replete with "THX" and "baffle walls"(love that jargon!) might actually come away from the encounter thinking, hey this guy says I can do it and it's no big deal. And what about "any" speaker enclosures whose front baffle design and cabinetry are used to minimize edge diffraction? Are we now going to defeat the designers purpose and simply surround the niche, alcove, hole, with wall treatment?...can it be done? Sure, maybe but, do try to keep your suggestions within the context of the posters plight...he's looking for a solution that will appease his sensibilites. Also, please...a wall is a wall is a wall is a wall...avoid the jargonistic "baffle" cr@p unless your intent is to, well... baffle!


If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.

Well, if you could get out of your soundbite mentality and take in the paragraph as a whole, perhaps you could come up with some sort, any sort of response...after all I'm simply "parroting" your earlier suggestions...Oh, how quickly they forget! And it does seem as though something got through, particularly in light of of your new-found specificity...as in your first quote above.


I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

Infinite baffles? As old as hi-fi and maybe older, no argument...HOWEVER the drivers(mostly raw)and their specs( natural roll-off, compliance, etc.) are taken into account...Or do you refer to "baffles" used to break up room nodes...or is it apples and oranges?

Then we have "I am referring to THX certified ROOMS" and in the same breath "The speakers do not have to be THX certified". Are you trying to confuse or are you simply confused? In order to get the little "Certified HT" plaque from THX, dontcha' hafta' use certified gear? Or is it simply dependent on how much you pay your contractor?

Yeah, you can certainly buy acoustically "transparent" screens AND you can get THX cert. loudspeakers, again with compensatory circuitry, specifically for this purpose...Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...we aren't back at the drawing board to lay out a budget, etc.


I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.

Mounted to or flush with? Were they intended for the purpose? Were our posters PSBs?


Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Again, the poster is looking for his speakers and his screen to lie in the same plane...yes, things can be done BUT what you suggest is irrelevant to the subject at hand, i.e. the poster's inquiry.


Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.

Not being certain where on a scale of one to ten on the "exotique" meter the PSBs are, I kinda' think the "baffle concept" would not be an option.


Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

So I'd guess were no longer dealing in the realm of THX certification(which, as I recall, requires a minimal dB difference between ANY two spots in the soundfield)and are simply speaking of approximating the "sweet spot"...this is only difficult to do if you've never had experience with design or construction...I rely on my ability to do so, must be the artist in me.

As for your links...well, somehow I don't think we are dealing with the expenditure level required as indicated by the HTs they represent...I have the feeling it's probably a tad lower in our poster's case...getting into the fruit salad as usual?

The behind-the-screen baffle wall...geez I'm gettin tired of sayin' it but...say it with me now...designed for, designed for, designed for...The poster's PSBs, not so much...

Re: the remainder of your attempts at insult and other sundry prattle...the poster's needs are relatively simple, the solution is not quite so, there are no generalties that apply and I have merely attempted to point that significant fact out...sorry if it bursts your over-inflated ballon.


When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

Which begs the question, why is he HERE? and a second one which I will spare you, given your already somewhat bruised ego.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:


Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

jimHJJ(...and much like "Niagra", I sorta' kinda' knew we wouldn't...)

[Resident Loser]

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

You really do have a reading comprehension problem, eh?

After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Given both perspectives, it's up to HAVIC to decide his course of action.


"...tough hometheater issues..."

An oxymoron if I ever saw one...

jimHJJ(...now pardon me, I hafta' figure out the most expeditious method of moving thirty-six workstations and their required support utilities by 10/7...without service interruption...it's called planning...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And yet earlier:

Well, at least we now have a bit of specificity...your earlier response was shall we say a. er...vague, to the point of being downright misleading.

Doesn't look like the original poster was that confused. I personally think you are doing nothing more than fishing for a aurgument.


Also, That word "any"..."any"one reading your initial response replete with "THX" and "baffle walls"(love that jargon!) might actually come away from the encounter thinking, hey this guy says I can do it and it's no big deal. And what about "any" speaker enclosures whose front baffle design and cabinetry are used to minimize edge diffraction? Are we now going to defeat the designers purpose and simply surround the niche, alcove, hole, with wall treatment?...can it be done? Sure, maybe but, do try to keep your suggestions within the context of the posters plight...he's looking for a solution that will appease his sensibilites. Also, please...a wall is a wall is a wall is a wall...avoid the jargonistic "baffle" cr@p unless your intent is to, well... baffle!

It is not up to me to change language that is industry standard, its up to you to lean it.
Unless a person is being like you currently are(plain difficult) it is not that difficult. Being sorta behind the times regarding hometheater makes this for you more difficult than it is. Often old schoolers have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. We weren't speaking about alcoves, niches so I do not know why this is even being brought up, it muddies the issue. Since it is customary to completely surround the speakers with very thick acoustical foam, there isn't much interaction between the speaker and the wall itself. So much for your diffraction issue. Since you recognized that you are not in the business, I can tell that those who are alot further along the curve than you are. We are well aware if certain acoustical issue, and the are dealt with accordingly. Catch up man, catch up, there is actually light in the room. No need to stay in the dark ages.






Well, if you could get out of your soundbite mentality and take in the paragraph as a whole, perhaps you could come up with some sort, any sort of response...after all I'm simply "parroting" your earlier suggestions...Oh, how quickly they forget! And it does seem as though something got through, particularly in light of of your new-found specificity...as in your first quote above.

If I wanted a parrot, I would go to a pet store. You weren't doing anything but trying to stir up mess. This is exactly what I mean about the things you do. You are hijacking this thread, and trying to make this personal, and it will not be. If you are not going to contribute to this thread with actual information, then you intentions are pure hassle.




Infinite baffles? As old as hi-fi and maybe older, no argument...HOWEVER the drivers(mostly raw)and their specs( natural roll-off, compliance, etc.) are taken into account...Or do you refer to "baffles" used to break up room nodes...or is it apples and oranges?

I never mention infinite baffles, can you please stick to the topic at hand


Then we have "I am referring to THX certified ROOMS" and in the same breath "The speakers do not have to be THX certified". Are you trying to confuse or are you simply confused? In order to get the little "Certified HT" plaque from THX, dontcha' hafta' use certified gear? Or is it simply dependent on how much you pay your contractor?

The point I was trying to make(and am not surprised you don't get it) is that baffle walls are not a stranger to hometheater. That is it. THX is the only entity that actually certifies the practice, even though they didn't invent the concept. The room nor the equipment has to be THX certified to use a baffle wall in a installation. That is a matter of choice. My dog knows this.


Yeah, you can certainly buy acoustically "transparent" screens AND you can get THX cert. loudspeakers, again with compensatory circuitry, specifically for this purpose..

You don't need THX certified speakers, or speaker with any special circuits to do this. I have used a variety of speakers with baffle walls. You mind is just a little narrow, or is it that your hometheater education is lacking? I'll give you the choice.


.Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...we aren't back at the drawing board to lay out a budget, etc.

Your room is an enclosure isn't it? And doesn't it require compensation for nodes and modes? Can't you set a wide variety of speakers in your room? Is it required that speaker of a specific design go it specific kinds of rooms? The poster may have gear now, but he didn't state he was going to do this NOW, and may have different equipment when he does. Remember he says he is THINKING about it, not ready to do it now.




Mounted to or flush with? Were they intended for the purpose? Were our posters PSBs?

Did you even look at the samples I provided. Why are you asking me this stupid question? Look at the examples and you can see for yourself.




Again, the poster is looking for his speakers and his screen to lie in the same plane...yes, things can be done BUT what you suggest is irrelevant to the subject at hand, i.e. the poster's inquiry.

The poster got it, but he wasn't trying to hassle anyone. YOu are, so give me a break






Not being certain where on a scale of one to ten on the "exotique" meter the PSBs are, I kinda' think the "baffle concept" would not be an option.

Your point?




So I'd guess were no longer dealing in the realm of THX certification(which, as I recall, requires a minimal dB difference between ANY two spots in the soundfield)and are simply speaking of approximating the "sweet spot"...this is only difficult to do if you've never had experience with design or construction...I rely on my ability to do so, must be the artist in me.

Your point, or is this more I like to hear myself talk fluff?


As for your links...well, somehow I don't think we are dealing with the expenditure level required as indicated by the HTs they represent...I have the feeling it's probably a tad lower in our poster's case...getting into the fruit salad as usual?

The poster hasn't mention any budget, so how do you know what he is ready to deal with? When somebody proposes to build a baffle wall, they know it won't be a cheap affair. Please do not assume the poster is stupid.


The behind-the-screen baffle wall...geez I'm gettin tired of sayin' it but...say it with me now...designed for, designed for, designed for...The poster's PSBs, not so much..

Have you ever tried it? No you have not Say this with me, behind the times, behind the times, behind the times. I have actually done this with regular bookshelf and tower speakers. When you have even TRIED to do this, come talk to me. Otherwise you sound like a geriatric scared to learn how to do powerpoint. .


Re: the remainder of your attempts at insult and other sundry prattle...the poster's needs are relatively simple, the solution is not quite so, there are no generalties that apply and I have merely attempted to point that significant fact out...sorry if it bursts your over-inflated ballon.

I never said it was easy, and I don't think the poster thinks it is easy either. He asked if it can be done, and it can. You are just being difficult because you have never done this, and would be too scared to try.




Which begs the question, why is he HERE? and a second one which I will spare you, given your already somewhat bruised ego.

Ask him why he is here. Bruised ego, you can do that. You actually have to matter to bruise my ego. You don't matter, your irrelevant.


And of course we never really did touch on this issue:



jimHJJ(...and much like "Niagra", I sorta' kinda' knew we wouldn't...)

Based on this last quote, and the general body of you comments, this post is nothing more than harassment. This is not the off topic section, so you are expected to behave in a way that is not offensive to others. Your harassment is offensive, and I am going to ask you to stop it now. If you have some information to contribute, that is one thing. But you haven't added anything to this topic at all. If you do not have any information to add to the topic, please don't post. You are just cluttering up the site with a bunch of harassing comments, and not actually contributing. If you are going to challenge me with facts, that's one thing. If all you are going to do is clutter up the site with personal challenges, then maybe you need to step back and think about why you are here. The poster is satisfied with the answer I gave him, so this topic is pretty much closed in my book.

[Resident Loser]

...I am sticking with the issues


Doesn't look like the original poster was that confused.

I mean, let's be honest, with all due respect, this part of HAVICs question: "...i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..."

Is hardly what I'd consider an example of lucidity, which is why I followed up with questions of my own, addressed to him.


I never mention infinite baffles, can you please stick to the topic at hand

Like the episode of "Fawlty Towers" where Basil is informed that "a Bordeau IS a claret", the type of wall with cutouts(as indicated by your links) IS an infinite baffle. It completely isolates every portion of rear hemispheric response of the drivers AND can(and does)affect the overall response of any enclosed loudspeaker system.

So quite the contrary to your inflammatory ascertions, while I AM attempting to contribute actual information to the thread...I am not "threadjacking"...your reactions to my information and advice it is beyond my control, YOU are taking it to another level with your rhetoric.

AND, at the THX site, there are those loudspeakers that do in fact have circuitry that will allow for placement in hostile environments WITHOUT the additional use of electronic or mechanical means.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Originally Posted by TtT
"...Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs...."

My contribution, attempting to providing factual information to the thread was: "...While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot..."


...Why are you asking me this stupid question?

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

jimHJJ(...and some of us seem to have an endless supply...)

[hermanv]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

If the original petitioner is willing to invest the time, effort and cost of perhaps doing this more than once, I agree it is possible.

To dismiss the main problem as trivial and then conversely advocate using a laser for one of the lesser exact requirements seems paradoxical.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Easy answer for this would be to ask him.


Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

Herman, I think I pointed out that some speakers would not work in this kind of setup. However, any standard acoustic suspension, or bass reflex design with the port of the front baffle will work just fine in these kinds of installations. Baffle step is not a problem because the rear wave of the speaker is totally damped by using very thick acoustical foam to fully surround the speaker. If a sub is used, then less foam is needed because deep bass frequencies are not part of the equation.


If the original petitioner is willing to invest the time, effort and cost of perhaps doing this more than once, I agree it is possible.

Apparently he is willing. He does not need to do this more than once if he plans well. Planning is the key, it teaches you the difficulty of the install.


To dismiss the main problem as trivial and then conversely advocate using a laser for one of the lesser exact requirements seems paradoxical.

I am sorry you think I dismissed the main problem, but there are over a thousand Theo Kalomirakis hometheater designs already in the field that use baffle walls to support their behind the screen speakers. The speakers are not custom made. They use speakers from M&K, klipsch, triad, JBL, Genelec, Tannoy and various other well known speaker manufacturers. Theo is not the only one that uses baffle walls either.

When one has experience doing these kinds of installs, they are very aware of the pitfalls, and possible drawbacks. You also learn how to compensate for them also.

RL is saying that it cannot be done, I say it can be done if you do it carefully, and plan well. I cannot see were I dismissed anything. I plainly stated that it can be done if done carefully. Carefully denotes that it takes work to get it right. I have done enough installs of this type to completely understand the pitfalls, but I also understand that you can sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.

If you think that accurately aiming a speaker is just small potatoes, then try to get it accurate within a millimeter by eye. Nothing is unimportant when somebody is paying for quality. Laser pointers are just as important as eq's, they all work together to get quality.

[HAVIC]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

Based on some of the comments by sir terrence about front ported speakers, which mine are, lead me to believe it can be achieved.

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

Greg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I am sticking with the issues

right




I mean, let's be honest, with all due respect, this part of HAVICs question: "...i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..."

Is hardly what I'd consider an example of lucidity, which is why I followed up with questions of my own, addressed to him.

I understood what he was trying to say. My question is why are you questioning his licidity? Sometimes people are thinking one thing, and their hands type another.


Like the episode of "Fawlty Towers" where Basil is informed that "a Bordeau IS a claret", the type of wall with cutouts(as indicated by your links) IS an infinite baffle. It completely isolates every portion of rear hemispheric response of the drivers AND can(and does)affect the overall response of any enclosed loudspeaker system.

I am quite aware of what a infinite baffle is, and I do know what it does to a speakers response. I also know that just placing a speaker in ANY room also changes that speakers response. So what the point? Both need some kind of correction, right? One is no worse than the other, it just a different way of mounting speakers for hometheater.


So quite the contrary to your inflammatory ascertions, while I AM attempting to contribute actual information to the thread...I am not "threadjacking"...your reactions to my information and advice it is beyond my control, YOU are taking it to another level with your rhetoric.

You stole my jack and hit me. You scratch my eye. You hit me with a toy. This is what you sound like when you go on these rants. Immature, really immature. You do not know what level I am at, you can neither see my face, or hear my voice, right?


AND, at the THX site, there are those loudspeakers that do in fact have circuitry that will allow for placement in hostile environments WITHOUT the additional use of electronic or mechanical means.

The circuitry is in the controller, not on the speaker. You can choose to engage or disengage it. Point? I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?


And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Originally Posted by TtT
"...Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs...."

My contribution, attempting to providing factual information to the thread was: "...While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot..."

Angles for sweet spot can be accomodated, the tools are there. You just don't know about them do you? Lotsa stuff you don't know about high end hometheater. This is to be expected since you admitted you are not in the business, are not THX trained or certified, CEDIA trained or certified, never done a single install, and are not educated enough in high end installs. Education and experience tend to teach you things that the less educated and experience will not know. Not a slight, but a fact.





There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

Are you a man?. When you ask that question in front of what is obviously a man, its a stupid question. You asked a stupid question, I didn't have a stupid response for you.


jimHJJ(...and some of us seem to have an endless supply...)

I am sure you say that in the mirror every day.

[hermanv]

I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Planning and some measurements. I encourage people to learn and experiment after all for most of us this is a hobby. At the same time it's neccessary to understand that people have devoted lifetimes to making speakers better, it is not a 1 hour task.


Baffle step is not a problem because the rear wave of the speaker is totally damped by using very thick acoustical foam to fully surround the speaker. If a sub is used, then less foam is needed because deep bass frequencies are not part of the equation. One of us is missing something, surrounding the rear housing of a speaker mounted in a wall with heavy foam would accomplish little. There is no back wave because the sound is prevented from wrapping around the existing housing by the new front baffle (the new wall). Or doesn't the speaker fit exactly in the hole? Baffle step is that frequency where the wavelength is such that the sound becomes uni-directional rather than omnidirectional (i.e has a sperical apparent source) as a woofer in a box does at very low frequencies. This affects the launch of low frequencies into the room. With a very large flat face (the new wall) the frequency where there is a gain change due to the way the woofer couples to air will be different. Some may find it pleasing but the speaker response will no longer be flat. I've done exactly enough speaker design work to know that to get a flat woofer response in an arbitrary room is one of the harder stunts to pull off.

I'm not a big fan of equalizers, but that is one possible solution. Considering the few designs by Theo I've seen, the added cost of even a first class digital equalizer would be lost in the noise of money being spent.


If you think that accurately aiming a speaker is just small potatoes, then try to get it accurate within a millimeter by eye. Nothing is unimportant when somebody is paying for quality. Laser pointers are just as important as eq's, they all work together to get quality. There is nothing wrong with basic accuracy but I found the juxtaposition of precise aiming yet no mention of equipment or analyzers or expected effort to re-equalize the speakers odd. Although some speakers have a narrow sweet spot, I've never owned one that needed adjustment to the nearest millimeter. If one owned such a speaker could only one person watch TV? :) :)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

One of us is missing something, surrounding the rear housing of a speaker mounted in a wall with heavy foam would accomplish little. There is no back wave because the sound is prevented from wrapping around the existing housing by the new front baffle (the new wall). Or doesn't the speaker fit exactly in the hole? Baffle step is that frequency where the wavelength is such that the sound becomes uni-directional rather than omnidirectional (i.e has a sperical apparent source) as a woofer in a box does at very low frequencies. This affects the launch of low frequencies into the room. With a very large flat face (the new wall) the frequency where there is a gain change due to the way the woofer couples to air will be different. Some may find it pleasing but the speaker response will no longer be flat. I've done exactly enough speaker design work to know that to get a flat woofer response in an arbitrary room is one of the harder stunts to pull off.

No actually we agree here. I did mention to the original poster that there would be a bass boost, he also recognized that and said so in his original post. With installs I have done, the bass was directed to the sub, so this was largely not a problem. However, no loudspeaker exibits a flat response in any room, so it is a given that some correction would be needed in these kinds of setups. If you use a shadow box, then you should wrap the speaker completely with acoustical foam as there really is no wall in front of the speakers. You use acoustical foam behind the screen to absorb any reflection from the speaker off the screen and back toward the speaker. That you do whether there is a wall there, or not.


I'm not a big fan of equalizers, but that is one possible solution. Considering the few designs by Theo I've seen, the added cost of even a first class digital equalizer would be lost in the noise of money being spent.

First, a first class digital eq is not really necessary, as all of my installations used subwoofers. I use 1/3 octave graphic eq's for the mains, and digital parametric eq's for the bass. Works just fine.


There is nothing wrong with basic accuracy but I found the juxtaposition of precise aiming yet no mention of equipment or analyzers or expected effort to re-equalize the speakers odd. Although some speakers have a narrow sweet spot, I've never owned one that needed adjustment to the nearest millimeter. If one owned such a speaker could only one person watch TV? :) :)

In my response to whateverhisnameis, I did mention compensation for bass boost. Maybe it got lost in all of the bull. The poster knew that some bass boost would occur, so I thought is was a given that acoustical correction would be needed.

I prefer that my aim be perfect rather than approximate. Just a preference of mine.

[hermanv]

First, a first class digital eq is not really necessary, as all of my installations used subwoofers. I use 1/3 octave graphic eq's for the mains, and digital parametric eq's for the bass. Works just fine. Ah ha! Found the disconnect. I have slowly been able to upgrade my systems to pretty good stuff. Equipment made by people who have reputations for first class (we'll maybe second class :) ) equipment. For the most part I am loath to attempt to improve on this stuff. At the price points I've paid one can and should expect that there is no free low hanging fruit.

Things may have changed but the analog 1/3 octave equalizers I've heard in the past sounded like crap. They were so far from acceptable that I've never bothered to listen again. Perhaps a mistake, but I'm happy in my world. :)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ah ha! Found the disconnect. I have slowly been able to upgrade my systems to pretty good stuff. Equipment made by people who have reputations for first class (we'll maybe second class :) ) equipment. For the most part I am loath to attempt to improve on this stuff. At the price points I've paid one can and should expect that there is no free low hanging fruit.

Things may have changed but the analog 1/3 octave equalizers I've heard in the past sounded like crap. They were so far from acceptable that I've never bothered to listen again. Perhaps a mistake, but I'm happy in my world. :)

Alesis makes a damn good analog constant q equalizers. As does Rane. Both make extremely well made eq's that are a value. They are ultra quiet, pretty flexible, and totally reliable. I used Alesis in my studio for years and got their last version before they went all digital.

[Resident Loser]

I understood what he was trying to say. My question is why are you questioning his licidity? Sometimes people are thinking one thing, and their hands type another.

As did I, or I'd never have responded...and I also requested clarification of his premise...and while, as in the case of "licidity", the odd misplaced finger is excusable, the concept of "... i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..." is a bit much, and while he may or may not be confused, my intent has been to minimize any confusion caused by the answers provided.


I am quite aware of what a infinite baffle is, and I do know what it does to a speakers response. I also know that just placing a speaker in ANY room also changes that speakers response. So what the point? Both need some kind of correction, right? One is no worse than the other, it just a different way of mounting speakers for hometheater

So what is the point? indeed...One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.


The circuitry is in the controller, not on the speaker. You can choose to engage or disengage it. Point? I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?

Well, howzabout these for a start...they are ALL THX certified. So, in no particular order, knowing full well you will find some self-serving reason to dismiss them:

Snell XA60, XA90, XA1900 and that's just the freestanders

Atlantic Technologies 4200, 6200 and 8200

The entire Sonance Cinema Series, save for the entry-level model

M&K S-150 THX Ultra's and I believe some of their LCRs are also so equipped.

There are others if memory serves, but while they may be directed toward the HT crowd, they aren't THX certified...in fact quite a few manufacturers seem to have curtailed their licensing payments a, er...agreements and no longer produce the models listed on the THX site.

And just as an aside to the general public there is a THX site which does have a wealth of info re: the subject at hand...products, placement guidelines, certification parameters...lookee here:

www.thx.com


Angles for sweet spot can be accomodated, the tools are there. You just don't know about them do you? Lotsa stuff you don't know about high end hometheater. This is to be expected since you admitted you are not in the business, are not THX trained or certified, CEDIA trained or certified, never done a single install, and are not educated enough in high end installs. Education and experience tend to teach you things that the less educated and experience will not know. Not a slight, but a fact.

Which really means very little...it ain't rocket science(in fact rocket science ain't all that big a deal)...particularly since the initial post had to do with how a specific scenario would affect the overall sound...you are the one who chose to bring the elephant into the room by typing THX, as though it really payed any part whatsoever. Other than to make it seem that you might have any better insight into the answer than anyone else who might dare to contribute to HAVICs information base...why shades of JR!!!

You only really have to know the audio basics...there are facets of the hobby governed by the laws of physics which will never change. Couple that with a modicum of common sense and it's sorta' like knowing how to orienteer with topos and a compass compared to using GPS...whatta' ya' do when the batteries run out?


...its a stupid question. You asked a stupid question, I didn't have a stupid response for you...

Used up your monthly allotment. did you? Pity for HAVIC it didn't occur earlier. Well, be of good cheer, it's almost Oct. 1st, and I'm sure there's more in store...and before you get all hissy-p!ssy, do recall all of your previous attempts at insult.

I don't claim to have any answers. The thing I do, and have always done on this site is to let all those "sheeple" in on the big secret...there are two sides to every coin and there are some folks who can't tolerate that fact and I think it's just terrible.

jimHJJ(...all sorts of info on the web...ya' jus' gotz to look fer it...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As did I, or I'd never have responded...and I also requested clarification of his premise...and while, as in the case of "licidity", the odd misplaced finger is excusable, the concept of "... i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..." is a bit much, and while he may or may not be confused, my intent has been to minimize any confusion caused by the answers provided.

It may be a bit much to you, but not to him. If he is asking the question, then a simple(or complex) answer is all that is required, no psychological evaluation is necessary. It is his speakers, and his future projector, right? Isn't it up to him to decided what looks right for him? I wasn't confused, I understood what he was trying to say, but of course I wasn't trying to be a rear orifice either?




So what is the point? indeed...One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.

I was not focusing on the speakers themselves, but the baffle wall. I am sorry that you have misplaced your focus. Now let's deal with the speaker issue.

Here is a link to at theater that uses regular boxed speakers(powered version) mounted to a baffle wall behind the screen. Notice it does not say the speaker is for wall mounting, its a studio monitor. In other words it was NOT designed specifically for baffle mounting

The theater;

http://www.wsdg.com/portfolio/portfol.php?SL=ht&BL=1#

http://www.wsdg.com/popup.php?POP=chiu_residence&IN=4&FN=/portfolio/home_theaters

The speaker

http://www.genelec.com/products/1032a/1032a.php

Here is another theater with baffle mounted speakers. It features the JBLsynthesis two speaker system. This speaker system was also not designed specifically for baffle mounting.

The theater;

http://www.wsdg.com/popup.php?POP=rowley_residence&IN=1&FN=/portfolio/home_theaters



The speakers;

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S2C&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S2ML&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

So as you see, your theory that a speaker must be designed specifically for the purpose of baffle mounting is simple not true. The speakers I am currently using in my hometheater used to be mounted behind a baffle wall. This is nothing more than an old school narrow minded thought process that is outdated and long forgotton. Catch up with the technology!




Well, howzabout these for a start...they are ALL THX certified. So, in no particular order, knowing full well you will find some self-serving reason to dismiss them:

Snell XA60, XA90, XA1900 and that's just the freestanders

Great speakers, however, the boundary compensation circuit provides only one curve, and is designed for boundaries that are close to the speakers, but not for behind a baffle wall. If we were to remain in context to this thread, we are specifically talking about boundary compensation circuits that work on a baffle wall, not for in front of walls. Just pointing out that these speakers have compensation circuit, but not specifically associated with the topic we are discussing is meaningless. The circuit is simular to the one that is found in THX controllers, and are supposed to be engaged when a non THX controller is used(it would be redundant otherwise). Not dismissing the speakers, just your understanding of what the compensation circuit can and cannot do. Baffle wall mounting will produce a very different frequency response than a speaker in a cabinet, or sitting close to a rear or side wall..



Atlantic Technologies 4200, 6200 and 8200

See above, same concept.


The entire Sonance Cinema Series, save for the entry-level model

These speakers are perfect for the task, however I see no boudary compensation circuits on them. I also do not see any information that would lead me to believe they have them.


M&K S-150 THX Ultra's and I believe some of their LCRs are also so equipped.

VERY familar with this speaker, and I know for a fact there are no boundary compensation circuits on this speaker. There is a radiation pattern control for wide or narrow dispersion for the tweeter. The speaker is perfect for baffle mounting, Eddie Murphy uses these in his hometheater. As far as accomodating toe in, I get my mounts that allow both up and down, and left right made for me.


There are others if memory serves, but while they may be directed toward the HT crowd, they aren't THX certified...in fact quite a few manufacturers seem to have curtailed their licensing payments a, er...agreements and no longer produce the models listed on the THX site.

Would you care to list the others? You memory doesn't serve me.


And just as an aside to the general public there is a THX site which does have a wealth of info re: the subject at hand...products, placement guidelines, certification parameters...lookee here:

www.thx.com

There is a wealth of information there if you own THX products.


Which really means very little...it ain't rocket science(in fact rocket science ain't all that big a deal)...particularly since the initial post had to do with how a specific scenario would affect the overall sound...you are the one who chose to bring the elephant into the room by typing THX, as though it really payed any part whatsoever. Other than to make it seem that you might have any better insight into the answer than anyone else who might dare to contribute to HAVICs information base...why shades of JR!!!

I chose to bring THX into the picture because they advocate baffle walls for behind the screen mounting of speakers. That IMO lends credence to the practice, as they have gone through a great deal of experimentation regarding the practice for hometheater, much more than anyone else except CEDIA. Your concerns listed have already been recognized and dealt with. You say it couldn't be done without speakers designed strictly for that practice, I have proven that is already has been done, and in over a thousand TK installations all over the world. TK does not use inwalls for the front speakers, they use various box speakers just like the JBL system, and the Genelec speakers.

I certainly have better insight into the practice than you have. I am both THX and CEDIA trained and certified, are you?


You only really have to know the audio basics...there are facets of the hobby governed by the laws of physics which will never change. Couple that with a modicum of common sense and it's sorta' like knowing how to orienteer with topos and a compass compared to using GPS...whatta' ya' do when the batteries run out?

Based on this comment, I suppose you can design, install, and calibrate a high end hometheater right now with the knowledge you currently have. Riiiiight! Sure you can! I am willing to bet you don't even know how to interpret the results of a real time analyzer.




Used up your monthly allotment. did you? Pity for HAVIC it didn't occur earlier. Well, be of good cheer, it's almost Oct. 1st, and I'm sure there's more in store...and before you get all hissy-p!ssy, do recall all of your previous attempts at insult.

My allotment didn't run out, my desire did. When you have to answer so many stupid questions in such a short time period from one particular person(RL) its a drain. Insult you, don't have to do it. Your a pro all by yourself.


I don't claim to have any answers. The thing I do, and have always done on this site is to let all those "sheeple" in on the big secret...there are two sides to every coin and there are some folks who can't tolerate that fact and I think it's just terrible.

jimHJJ(...all sorts of info on the web...ya' jus' gotz to look fer it...)

The web is also full of misinformation and junk. And you are correct, there are always two sides to everything. Its terrible you have presented the more weak side. Sometime you don't have to claim anything, the arrogant attitude speaks loads. I am sure that posters on this site appreciated you calling them sheeple. I supposed you think you are a shepherd, although I would never follow you. I am not a sheeple so that might explain why.

[Resident Loser]

...on my team...as I've said I treat my forays into cyberspace as learning experiences...so I took a look at your links...viola!

Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments. Did you somehow miss the two lo-freq compensation switches? I didn't, there right there in the manual...congrats, would you like a Band-aid for that wound to your foot?

Re: the May's Wilson X-1s and Watt Puppies: you aint stickin' them in walls, cutouts, baffles...he!! they won't fit in some rooms...and BTW they require installation and placement as per the Wilson installation guidelines, by a qualified dealer/rep/tech. Ain't just stickin' them any ol' place.

Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...




Not dismissing the speakers, just your understanding of what the compensation circuit can and cannot do. Baffle wall mounting will produce a very different frequency response than a speaker in a cabinet, or sitting close to a rear or side wall.

I'm sorry...since you've obviously forgotten, you said:


I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?

And so I did...what those compensation citcuits can or cannot do is COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT to the subject at hand.



Great speakers, however, the boundary compensation circuit provides only one curve, and is designed for boundaries that are close to the speakers, but not for behind a baffle wall. If we were to remain in context to this thread, we are specifically talking about boundary compensation circuits that work on a baffle wall, not for in front of walls. Just pointing out that these speakers have compensation circuit, but not specifically associated with the topic we are discussing is meaningless. The circuit is simular to the one that is found in THX controllers, and are supposed to be engaged when a non THX controller is used(it would be redundant otherwise).

No, we are specifically talking about HAVICs situation...not what he may dream of someday owning or any othe flights-of-fancy provided by you...Baffles(infinite or otherwise) weren't part of the subject nor were any THX considerations until YOU brought them up...he wants a place to hang his screen, when and if he gets one...period. Amen.

Re: other bits of your damage control:

Check the M&K site...you have to look, but you CAN access .pdf downloads of the manuals...no simple pictures, you have to read through the text...nearly anyone can do it...nearly...

The THX site has a wealth of info whether or not you have THX certified gear...it's just another database, no smoke, no mirrors, no secret handshakes or hushed conversation in dark marble halls...


I chose to bring THX into the picture because they advocate baffle walls for behind the screen mounting of speakers.

IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.


I certainly have better insight into the practice than you have. I am both THX and CEDIA trained and certified, are you?

And this somehow is supposed to impress? I'm confronted with unfamiliar SOTA gear(non-audio) in my job...A few manuals and some specialized some test gear? Much ado about nothing...unless your intent is to polish your buttons...There are trained and certified techs/engineers who work on the space shuttle...two of 'em blew up if you'll recall.

Now, I ask you...what does any of this to do re: HAVICs question?...if all you wish to do is flex your muscles and strut your THX stuff...well, IMO, you have failed...and I realize you could care one wit less of my opinion. I think you are a sham and you have nearly everyone bamboozled...the emperor has no clothes and no one should pay attention to the man behind the curtain...the great and powerful OZ has mis-spoken! Yet again.


I wasn't trying to be a rear orifice either?

But(t) somehow you always succeed!

jimHJJ(...you may want to have a doctor look at that foot...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...on my team...as I've said I treat my forays into cyberspace as learning experiences...so I took a look at your links...viola!


Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments. Did you somehow miss the two lo-freq compensation switches? I didn't, there right there in the manual...congrats, would you like a Band-aid for that wound to your foot?

Yea, maybe I should keep my foot outta your butt!

Once again, those boundary compensation switches only help if the speaker is located IN FRONT OF THE WALL, not behind it or in it..You have a high frequency tilt control(hot helpful) bass tilt control(can't be used in a baffle situation which already boost bass), and roll off control(which presents one curve, not many and is not helpful) If you knew you stuff as much as you think you do, you would be dangerous. The is no speaker on the market that makes boundary compensation circuit for BEHIND THE BAFFLE USE, that is why equalization is necessary. Once again you are tyring to muddy the water. Here are your words;

designed for a SPECIFIC USE

That is not the same as mutiple use is it?


Re: the May's Wilson X-1s and Watt Puppies: you aint stickin' them in walls, cutouts, baffles...he!! they won't fit in some rooms...and BTW they require installation and placement as per the Wilson installation guidelines, by a qualified dealer/rep/tech. Ain't just stickin' them any ol' place.

I wouldn't use those speakers in my installations anyway so what't the point? Why would you mention this speaker when the poster doesn't even own one? What would you castigate me for mentioning THX, and in the same thread you mention Wilson? Could you be just a little less hyprocritical?


Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...

One again no mention of SPECIFIC anywhere huh? Thanks for the description of the synthesis system, to bad you are about 4 years to late.



I'm sorry...since you've obviously forgotten, you said:

Context RL, context. We are discussing baffle mounting, so only boundary compensation circuits that apply within the context of the debate would applicable. Since we are talking about that, and not front of wall placement, your examples are faulty. Do you want to try again?




And so I did...what those compensation citcuits can or cannot do is COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT to the subject at hand.

I do believe that we are talking about baffle mounting the speakers, so whether or not the speakers compensation circuit work in that environment is relevant. Since they cannot, the circuits are usless, and irrelevant to the task at hand.



No, we are specifically talking about HAVICs situation...not what he may dream of someday owning or any othe flights-of-fancy provided by you...Baffles(infinite or otherwise) weren't part of the subject nor were any THX considerations until YOU brought them up...he wants a place to hang his screen, when and if he gets one...period. Amen.

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I am thinking means he has not made a commitment to do it now, or later for that matter.

but I like the front projector for the future.

That future could be tomorrow, or twenty years from now.

Now who's comprehension is suffering?. He was not looking for a place to hand his screen, he was talking about mounting his speakers in a false wall(I call it a baffle). Do you believe that the thrust of his question was where to hang the screen, or mounting his speakers in the baffle? Come on RL get it right man.

His equipment may or may not be the same in the future. What you call a wall, I call a baffle. Baffle is what is used in the installation trade, wall is used by joe six packs. What the original poster proposed has already been done, I did it myself with my own speakers. Your lack of design and installation experience doesn't allow your mind to understand the concept. I have used 5 Klipsch RF-7 mounted in a baffle wall behind a screen, speakers that are larger than the original posters with excllent results. The only problem that I had was a elevated response in the mid bass and lower midrange which was easily corrected using 1/3 octave graphic eq. You are a can't do person, I am a can do. If a RF-7 can be adopted for the purpose, his PSB's can to.



Re: other bits of your damage control:

Check the M&K site...you have to look, but you CAN access .pdf downloads of the manuals...no simple pictures, you have to read through the text...nearly anyone can do it...nearly...

Umm, maybe you need to read the manual again. The S5000THX is the speaker with the normal and special switch, not the S-150 speaker that you mention. The S5000 is a two tweeter design, the S-150 is a three tweeter design. Get your fact straight. There is no boundary compensation circuit for the S-150. Do you wanna try again? I know that without even going to the site.


The THX site has a wealth of info whether or not you have THX certified gear...it's just another database, no smoke, no mirrors, no secret handshakes or hushed conversation in dark marble halls...

The examples on the THX site of speaker setups is unique the the THX design. It does not comform to the industry adopted ITU-B775 setup widely used in most hometheater setups. Their setups are designed to compensate for using mismatched speakers in the front and rear hemisphere(monopole fronts, dipole rears). EX is necessary because dipoles cannot place a phantom image between the rear speakers. The ITU standards DO support phantom images across the rear soundfield. As I said earlier, they have a wealth of information if you own THX certified products. The site is dedicated to pushing THX certified products. Since you seem to know it all, I am surprised you don't know this.




IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.

He wants to put his speakers within a baffle wall, it can be done, it HAS been done. It is up to you to disprove what has already been done. Can you do that?

Secondly did I read this right, did you say that the JBL synthesis system cannot be used in a baffle wall setup, and the synthesis system has rear mounted ports? Wooooo. Perhaps you need to update your coke bottle bottom glasses man. All of the synthesis speaker system locate their port on the front baffle of the speaker, not the rear.
The K2 speaker in the hercules system does locate its ports in the rear, but it is crossed over at 80hz to the sub which is well above the frequencies were the ports contribution kicks in.

If you line up your cursor on each system, you can see the installations that these speakers have already been installed in. As you can see, all of the speakers have been placed BEHIND the screen. Each of these setups are TK designs. Every TK design uses a baffle wall. So to say the the ANY speaker in the synthesis line cannot be used in a baffle wall system is a lie. Amen!

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/the_systems.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA



And this somehow is supposed to impress? I'm confronted with unfamiliar SOTA gear(non-audio) in my job...A few manuals and some specialized some test gear? Much ado about nothing...unless your intent is to polish your buttons...There are trained and certified techs/engineers who work on the space shuttle...two of 'em blew up if you'll recall.

The two blew up because of equipment failure, not tech failure. A crack in a seal caused by cold weather, and a tile knocking a hole in the side of the ship is not a failure of the techs, but a failure of the equipment.

Not looking to impress, just stating facts. I am sorry you don't like the facts, but facts are facts jack! We are not talking NON audio, we ARE talking audio. Not the same thing as your job, so therefore any comparison you make are apples and oranges. Every install is pretty unique, so therefore no manual is really helpful. A untrained person like yourself trying to install a high end hometheater with a couple of books and test equipment you don't understand is a receipe for diaster. Plus, no one would hire you anyway with just book knowledge.


Now, I ask you...what does any of this to do re: HAVICs question?...if all you wish to do is flex your muscles and strut your THX stuff...well, IMO, you have failed...and I realize you could care one wit less of my opinion. I think you are a sham and you have nearly everyone bamboozled.

Well,. I think you are a stupid old man who doesn't know crap about hometheater installs. Now that we have gotten the personal stuff out of the way can we get back to the subject matter?

..the emperor has no clothes and no one should pay attention to the man behind the curtain...the great and powerful OZ has mis-spoken! Yet again.[/quote]

This sounds like nothing more than jealous rantings, and someone disperately grasping at straws. Oh and you are right, I could care less of your opinion. Why would I? You have never installed one hometheater. Why should one that has listen to someone that hasn't?

My question to you is this; How do you know something cannot work if you never tried it? How do you know if something tastes good if you never sampled it? How do you know anything if you have never studied it? If you have never tried something you are not qualified to say it cannot work. I have used the RF-7 by klipsch sucessfully in a baffle wall setup. Aside from the horn loading of the mid/tweets, the PSB is a tower speaker just like it. It has been mounted in a baffle wall, so why can't the PSB's? If a Genelec monitor, or a M&K S-150P speaker can be mounted in a baffle wall(in one of Lucasfilm's editing suites), then why can't a PSB? All kinds of speakers have been mounted behind a baffle wall, why can't the PSB?




But(t) somehow you always succeed!

If I did, I learned from you. You are the biggest in the business.


jimHJJ(...you may want to have a doctor look at that foot...)

You may want a doctor to look at your foot AND your mouth.

[Resident Loser]

designed for a SPECIFIC USE

That is not the same as mutiple use is it?

Well, once again you reveal your inability to deal in the abstract...not that this is really all that abstract. Pity you can't see Genelec's flexibility AS it's purpose. It's specific use(in this case) IS it's ability to be used in various conditions...HAVICs PSBs are what they are and that's all that they are...toot!...toot!

Re: the Wilson's...they were included in YOUR link. I mentioned them because they, like the PSBs in question, are also what they are...do try to keep up.

Re: the JBLs...again, it's YOUR link , so if you have a problem with its vintage, you probably shouldn't have used it. Much like the the Genelec's, their purpose is the flexibility afforded by the multi-component system approach...I don't see HAVICs PSBs in the same frame of reference.

Re: "the future"...sorry, I let my membership in the KreskinKlub lapse. I'm trying to deal with a hypothetical situation based on at least some bit of tangible reality. Will HAVIC get his new projector? Will he build a wall for the screen? Will he decide to upgrade/change his loudspeakers? Will the point be moot? Tune in tomorrow and find out...

If you want to dump vagaries atop possibilities and/or probabilities, be my guest...talk about grasping at straws... Given that he has listed his current gear with no mention of further upgrade...I'm gonna' take an edumacated guess that it ain't gonna' happen. Even if it does, contemplating or actual making any structural changes based on his current lineup will most likely have little or no bearing on his future choices. This alone renders the entire execise highly debatable.


Yea, maybe I should keep my foot outta your butt!
If you knew you stuff as much as you think you do, you would be dangerous.
Well,. I think you are a stupid old man who doesn't know crap about hometheater installs.

Hey, ericl...and this is a moderator...

And TtT...sometime ago in another thread you lamented the fact of being passed over due to some issues you percieved as racial in nature...the more you post, the more the real reasons become obvious..

jimHJJ(...color is only skin deep, being a dumb $h!t cuts straight to the bone...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, once again you reveal your inability to deal in the abstract...not that this is really all that abstract. Pity you can't see Genelec's flexibility AS it's purpose. It's specific use(in this case) IS it's ability to be used in various conditions...HAVICs PSBs are what they are and that's all that they are...toot!...toot!

Your operative word is SPECIFIC, not flexibility, not adaptability. Specific denotes that the speaker only works in a predictable way when placed in ONE type of environment, not many. Its disengenious for you to try and change now what you said before. Specific is specific, flexible is flexible. You cannot turn a circle into a square no matter how hard you try.

[qoute]Re: the Wilson's...they were included in YOUR link. I mentioned them because they, like the PSBs in question, are also what they are...do try to keep up.[/quote]

I never mentioned Wilson, so you shouldn't have. You chided me for mentioning THX even when it is much more related to this topic than wilson speakers. Stay focused, stay on topic.


Re: the JBLs...again, it's YOUR link , so if you have a problem with its vintage, you probably shouldn't have used it. Much like the the Genelec's, their purpose is the flexibility afforded by the multi-component system approach...I don't see HAVICs PSBs in the same frame of reference.

I have no problem with my link, you do have a problem with your eyes. Does all of the synthesis line have ports in the rear as you assert? No they don't. One model does, and if set up according to standards, it doesn't make a difference. M&K weren't made to be placed behind a screen or soffit, but they do just fine in that position, and have already been installed as such. Klipsch speakers were not designed to be behind a screen or soffitt, but they have been sucessfully installed in that position.A great many speakers used in custom installation were not designed for the purposed, but were adaptable to the task. The key is adaptablility, and if you have a imagination greater than a piece of white paper(that leaves you out RL) you can figure out which speakers can work in this position, and which ones cannot. The posters PSB are not a strange or weird design. The ports are on the front, the drivers all face foward, this leaves the possiblilty of many options for soffit or behind screen mounting. If you have already adopted many speakers to this position, then it is not a leap of faith to say that these could also.

You are dodging the inaccuracies of your own statements. You said that JBL CANNOT be placed behind a screen or soffit. The link shows that it already has been done. Its much like your aurgument, you say it cannot be done except with speakers designed for this specific purposed, yet speakers of all types(not specifically designed for this purpose)have already been installed. Your argument against the practice is too late.


Re: "the future"...sorry, I let my membership in the KreskinKlub lapse. I'm trying to deal with a hypothetical situation based on at least some bit of tangible reality. Will HAVIC get his new projector? Will he build a wall for the screen? Will he decide to upgrade/change his loudspeakers? Will the point be moot? Tune in tomorrow and find out...

According to you who seems to know all, and have done all, he is not going to get new equipment, and his speakers will not work when placed withing a wall, or behind a screen. You seem to know everything and nothing at the same time. Only you could realy pull this off, though with no success.


If you want to dump vagaries atop possibilities and/or probabilities, be my guest...talk about grasping at straws... Given that he has listed his current gear with no mention of further upgrade...I'm gonna' take an edumacated guess that it ain't gonna' happen. Even if it does, contemplating or actual making any structural changes based on his current lineup will most likely have little or no bearing on his future choices. This alone renders the entire execise highly debatable.

Your educated guess is crap. Since you are not really educated in custom installation your advice is crap. The poster already said he was going to do more investigation, and his mind was not made up yet. His question was purely hypothetical, non committal with no timetable set. Many things can happen in that scenario. The question remains, can his PSB's be adapted to in wall placement, the answer is yes with some response corrections induced by this placement.




Hey, ericl...and this is a moderator...

You called me a sham, I didn't call out to Eric, why are you? Yes I am a moderator, but I am also a participant. You told me what you think of me, I told you what I think about you. If you cannot take it, go put on a dress, panty hose, lipstick, and a wig, sit in front of the television and watch Oprah for makeup and fashion tips. This place aint for ya!


And TtT...sometime ago in another thread you lamented the fact of being passed over due to some issues you percieved as racial in nature...the more you post, the more the real reasons become obvious..

jimHJJ(...color is only skin deep, being a dumb $h!t cuts straight to the bone...)

In another thread you spoke of failing to finish college. I am willing the bet that the same defeatist attitude you exibited in this thread, is the same attitude that didn't allow you to finish college. You also said you were too chicken to go after promotion for fear of being sued by minorities, and left hanging dry by the company. Racist if I ever heard one. Keep in mind, I have been doing custom installation for 15 years. You have done nothing even related to audio, let alone custom install. So who is really the dumb $hit, the person that has the education and experience in the field, or the old idiot who is name calling?

[Resident Loser]

...to overburden your skills of comprehension any more than I already have, you leave me very little choice but to simplify matters...

...fewer words probably won't work...now we try NO words...pictographs better?

http://www.genelec.com/pdf/QS2-way.pdf


Your operative word is SPECIFIC, not flexibility, not adaptability. Specific denotes that the speaker only works in a predictable way when placed in ONE type of environment, not many. Its disengenious for you to try and change now what you said before. Specific is specific, flexible is flexible. You cannot turn a circle into a square no matter how hard you try.

Me use "specific use" when talk about Triad InWall gold speakers...lookee-see old words:


One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.

Other times used "designed for, designed for, designed for" like here:


Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments.

You no get it...big time, Joe...


...Klipsch speakers were not designed to be behind a screen or soffitt, but they have been sucessfully installed in that position....

Behind screen? Has to do with what? Soffit? You hang Klipsch in soffit? Do you know what soffit is? PSBs hung in an overhang? Me no sit too close...maybe make big boom-boom on head!!! Maybe no boom-boom, just lousy image...


You said that JBL CANNOT be placed behind a screen or soffit. The link shows that it already has been done.Does all of the synthesis line have ports in the rear as you assert?

Me say no such thing! You bad man, you very bad man...you lying sack of $h!t...me say this:


Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...

Oh, and one thing I should have highlighted earlier:


The is no speaker on the market that makes boundary compensation circuit for BEHIND THE BAFFLE USE

Wouldn't that be in the next room? wouldn't it be so much easier to walk through the door?


You also said you were too chicken to go after promotion for fear of being sued by minorities, and left hanging dry by the company.

Nope, never said THAT either...you may wanna' double check your sources.


You called me a sham

Only because you are...


I didn't call out to Eric, why are you?

I thought maybe he'd give you another month off...and besides doing a PM is much more appropriate...

jimHJJ(...perhaps you should change your name to Sam...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...to overburden your skills of comprehension any more than I already have, you leave me very little choice but to simplify matters...

...fewer words probably won't work...now we try NO words...pictographs better?

http://www.genelec.com/pdf/QS2-way.pdf

Hate to bust your ignorant bubble, without measuring the response of the speaker in any position, you cannot assume that these tilt responses fit. They are offering suggestions, not specifics. Nobody installs these speakers in a studio or otherwise relying on suggestions from the site, they measure the speaker in position, in the room, and the generally use 1/3 octave eq to smooth the response. You little internet education is not enough to understand the correct installation of any speaker. Notice that it did NOT mention soffit or behind the screen application, yet the speaker was used in that fashion. Adaptability, my friend. By the way, there is nothing in your little internet surfing that would tax my comprehension, its your funny way of spelling words that does.






Me use "specific use" when talk about Triad InWall gold speakers...lookee-see old words:

You used specific use and designed for consistantly in your post. However a speaker may be designed for X placements, and can be adapted for Y position. I have already proven that was so, you have yet to prove otherwise.




you no get it...big time, Joe...

Who is Joe?

.


Behind screen? Has to do with what? Soffit? You hang Klipsch in soffit? Do you know what soffit is? PSBs hung in an overhang? Me no sit too close...maybe make big boom-boom on head!!! Maybe no boom-boom, just lousy image...

What language is this? Let me get my decoder ring. This is what I mean about your obvious lack of education in this area. Here is an example of a soffit mounted speaker system,'

http://www.genelec.com/news/cherry_beach.php

You cannot assume that you will get lousy imaging, you have to prove it. Folks that do this for a living know how to mount the speaker in a soffit and still get good imaging. Folks like yourself who have never done a single installation would probably have a little problem hanging it in a overhang LOL






Me say no such thing! You bad man, you very bad man...you lying sack of $h!t...me say this:

You very stupid dried up old man, forget you say this?

IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.

Perhaps dumb old man with all of brain and half of body in grave shouldn't talk so much if can't remember what said.







Oh, and one thing I should have highlighted earlier:



Wouldn't that be in the next room? wouldn't it be so much easier to walk through the door?

Irrelevant to the topic at hand


Nope, never said THAT either...you may wanna' double check your sources.

Totally irrelevant to the topic







Only because you are...

Well then, I think you are a stupid old geezer who doesn't know his oversized prostrate from a shoe.




I thought maybe he'd give you another month off...and besides doing a PM is much more appropriate...

jimHJJ(...perhaps you should change your name to Sam...)

I gave myself a month off, and enjoyed it too. Pehaps you should change your name to old stupid phart. It fits you even better than Resident idiot.

The bottom line is this, you have failed to prove that his speakers CANNOT be used in a baffle wall. You have proved that you are dumb as heck when it comes to custom installation, the language of the trade, and adpatability of speakers to different installs. The insults, meaningless words, funny spelling, and clouding the issues proves that you are in territory that is out of your reach. I suggest you go back to knitting by day, cross dress by night, and continue to watch episodes of the Desperate housewives.

[Resident Loser]

...if we can't just bring this full circle, and refresh a few memories in the process, shall we...

Way back when(only post #8- but a lifetime ago it seems)I posted these words:


...Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...

Now, where else shall we go in your attempted manipulation of the facts?

Baffle wall, anyone?

It completely eliminates an entire hemisphere of radiation AND affects the remaining 180 deg of radiation in re: to FR along with the diffraction/dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker involved...

Genelec 1032s?

Completely disregarding the facts that the manufacturer characterizes their purpose as NEAR-FIELD radiators (2'4" to 6'6'" as I recall)with specific placement recommendations(@ the 60deg apex) AND nowhere endorses any baffle/soffit mounting, the examples supplied uses them in this out-of-spec/rec manner...Hmmm...curious...until, of course, one looks at either of the two .pdf downloads for the Lexicon units involved...with a myriad of fully adjustable tone/EQ/tilt/roll-off parameters available, in addition to the ajdustments available on the loudspeakers THEMSELVES the flexibility/manipulation factor seems mighty high. Pity the poor PSBs so archaic and dumb by comparison.

Soffit or fascia?

When does a fascia become a soffit...Well folks, in the "You can put you boots in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits" Department, another term(like "burn-in") has been jargonized...by definition(actually many of them):

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Soffit

Simply ask any ten people involved in contributing to society's housing needs and you will get one of those definitions...HOWEVER...'taint so in "the biz"...we have our own take on the word...it's been co-opted cuz we don't really know what to call hangin' some loudspeakers at an appropriate angle relative to the listeners heads, so we'll call it "soffit-mounting"...

Luckily, there are a few who will still call a spade a spade...like:

http://www.4sptech.com/timepiece_2.0_features.php

...who use the word soffit but put it in quotes, denoting their realization of the misuse of the word...or

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_2.pdf

...who, in the case study beginning at 7-9, use the term to denote "in ceiling" speakers...or

http://www.asc-home-theater.com/products-soffit2.htm

...who market a product that fits the term...

And in an odd confluence of "wall" or "baffle"(as some like to call 'em) and "soffit" we find this example of linguistic legerdemain:

http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2005/dougsax.html

...A "soffit" that "...is not the full height of the room..."???? and tri-amped loudspeakers that "...'have been customized for our use' Sax confirms."...ohhh, lament you poor, poor PSBs...English and how she is spoke...

Funny spelling? Or is it just dem big woids gets your skivies in a knot? Oh, oh, I get it... you mean correct spelling...yeah, it MUST seem strange to you...unaccustomed to it as you are...

AND, if you are going to say that things are irrelevant to the topic, kindly don't bring them up in the first place!

Geez, and you would think with fifteen years of HT experience you would be doing something other than gophering coffee and doughnuts for the Eyewitless News team...yeah, that's the ticket...I can see the business card now...Terrible Home Theatre Consultants call BR549...

jimHJJ(...in the meanwhile, regular with a cruller, fer me...see, no clouds...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...if we can't just bring this full circle, and refresh a few memories in the process, shall we...

Way back when(only post #8- but a lifetime ago it seems)I posted these words:

Now, where else shall we go in your attempted manipulation of the facts?

Well, this is why I am puzzled, because it appears that you are contradicting everything else you said. Especially since I followed with this comment.

Your room is an enclosure isn't it? And doesn't it require compensation for nodes and modes? Can't you set a wide variety of speakers in your room? Is it required that speaker of a specific design go it specific kinds of rooms?

A baffle wall design is just another room. Speakers will require compensation for baffle wall installation. It is pretty widely known that a baffle wall will elevate a speakers low end response, even the poster knew that.



Baffle wall, anyone?
It completely eliminates an entire hemisphere of radiation AND affects the remaining 180 deg of radiation in re: to FR along with the diffraction/dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker involved...

I'll tell you why eliminated the entire rear wave is actually beneficial. At very low frequencies the rear wall reflections are in phase with the front wave of the speaker because the wavelengths are very large. As you go up in frequency and the wavelengths become shorter, the rear wave becomes more and more out of phase. They become acoustical mirrors of the speaker front output but increasingly lagging in time from the speakers front output(reflections). These reflections alter the frequency response to the ears so you have peaks and valleys in the response to the ears(and measuring equipment). That is NOT a good thing. A speaker can have response variations from as little as 3db to 20db under these conditions. A baffle wall eleminates this effect completely by fully attenuating the rear output and therefore all reflections from that direction. Phase is constant, and aside from the low bass bump(which can be eleminated by using bass management and EQ) you are hearing more of the speaker, and less effects of the room on that speaker. A good thing.

Flush mounting the loudspeaker into a wall works well by eliminating unwanted secondary sound radiation from the loudspeaker cabinet's edges and nearly idealizing the radiation space to a half space. The result is minimization of diffraction effects, improved transient response and imaging.

Dispersion in the frontal 180 degrees(the output we are most interested in) is completely uneffected by baffle or foam baffle mounting.



Genelec 1032s?


Completely disregarding the facts that the manufacturer characterizes their purpose as NEAR-FIELD radiators (2'4" to 6'6'" as I recall)with specific placement recommendations(@ the 60deg apex) AND nowhere endorses any baffle/soffit mounting, the examples supplied uses them in this out-of-spec/rec manner...Hmmm...curious...until, of course, one looks at either of the two .pdf downloads for the Lexicon units involved...with a myriad of fully adjustable tone/EQ/tilt/roll-off parameters available, in addition to the ajdustments available on the loudspeakers THEMSELVES the flexibility/manipulation factor seems mighty high. Pity the poor PSBs so archaic and dumb by comparison.

Haven't you ever heard of digital parametric or 1/3 octave graphic equalization? Last time I checked you could use it on any speaker. So the PSB's don't seem to be so dumb after all.

While baffle mounting is not mentioned, you can see it is used for just that purpose. Its called adaptablility.


Soffit or fascia?

When does a fascia become a soffit...Well folks, in the "You can put you boots in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits" Department, another term(like "burn-in") has been jargonized...by definition(actually many of them):
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Soffit

Sorry that you don't like the way soffit is used in this instance. Since your not God himself you'll just have to live with it. It ain't changin any time soon.


Simply ask any ten people involved in contributing to society's housing needs and you will get one of those definitions...HOWEVER...'taint so in "the biz"...we have our own take on the word...it's been co-opted cuz we don't really know what to call hangin' some loudspeakers at an appropriate angle relative to the listeners heads, so we'll call it "soffit-mounting"...

More rantings,zzzzzzzzzz......My suggestion to you is to go to a CEDIA conference and tell them they are using the word incorrectly. I would be interested in the response you get. LOL


Luckily, there are a few who will still call a spade a spade...like:

http://www.4sptech.com/timepiece_2.0_features.php

...who use the word soffit but put it in quotes, denoting their realization of the misuse of the word...or

Denoting the misuse of the word LOL So your reading minds again. How do you know it was put in quotes for the reason you state? You don't so we'll move on.

[
url]http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/pssdm_2.pdf[/url]

...who, in the case study beginning at 7-9, use the term to denote "in ceiling" speakers...or

Since the speakers are not mounted in the ceiling, then it wouldn't apply to this kind of installation. Do you see any speaker mounted on the ceiling in any example I gave you? I don't think so.


http://www.asc-home-theater.com/products-soffit2.htm

...who market a product that fits the term...
And in an odd confluence of "wall" or "baffle"(as some like to call 'em) and "soffit" we find this example of linguistic legerdemain:

http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2005/dougsax.html

...A "soffit" that "...is not the full height of the room..."???? and tri-amped loudspeakers that "...'have been customized for our use' Sax confirms."...ohhh, lament you poor, poor PSBs...English and how she is spoke...

I would say using EQ on the PSB's would be customizing them for a specific use. The only effect of mounting them in a baffle would be a elevated bass response. EQ can correct that easy, been there done that.





Funny spelling? Or is it just dem big woids gets your skivies in a knot? Oh, oh, I get it... you mean correct spelling...yeah, it MUST seem strange to you...unaccustomed to it as you are...

Not the big words that bother me, its the hick/corney way you spell the smaller words that's a problem. It is strange because I don't speak hick.


AND, if you are going to say that things are irrelevant to the topic, kindly don't bring them up in the first place!
Geez, and you would think with fifteen years of HT experience you would be doing something other than gophering coffee and doughnuts for the Eyewitless News team...yeah, that's the ticket...I can see the business card now...Terrible Home Theatre Consultants call BR549...
jimHJJ(...in the meanwhile, regular with a cruller, fer me...see, no clouds...)

The rest of this is nothing more than the ranting of a bitter old corny phart wth a oversized prostrate, who can barely piss or crap. You talk to much and don't know enough to do so. Since you already said this

Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question

this whole thread is a waste of time. Digital EQ or 1/3 octave EQ can compensate for baflle mounting, and the speaker does not have to be designed specifically for this purpose. The use of bass management along with EQ makes the poster dumb speakers pretty adaptable for this particular installation. Please, go back to being the toothless old cross dresser, that is the only thing you are really good at.

[Resident Loser]

...of a dip$h!t?

The poster asks a question, which I'm not quite certain you completely understand even now...and you respond:


If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

My question is: where are all of your suggestions of the difficulty involved...need for EQing or anything else for that matter? Yeah, yeah...cut a few holes in the wall, acoustic foam, lick o'paint...piece of cake!

Where? NOWHERE is where...

I respond, in part:


I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

To which you get all THXy on us and go into hissy-fit heaven...

Anyone else could say nearly anything they might please, but you get all b!tchy because I("the individual above") have the nerve to correct the all knowing and powerfull OOZE...

And then you go on about "you don't know of any manufacturer, etc. this, that or the other thing"...like that ain't too obvious...

Got that message/messenger bit confused, eh pal?(pal again, used in the idiomatic sense)...

Even a semi-disinterested third party came along and asked if the poster was up to the task, cuz it probably wouldn't be easy...

Well, so neither one of us "likes" the other...I won't be losing any sleep over it and I'm sure you won't either so...why not stick your head back up your @$$ and make yourself at home...I'm sure that smooth, pointed dome of yours will make the job easier...try a little Crisco otherwise.

Oh, BTW...all that cross dressing cr@pola...as I recall you're the one that lives in 'Frisco...

jimHJJ(...bum voyage...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...of a dip$h!t?

The poster asks a question, which I'm not quite certain you completely understand even now...and you respond:

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Stupid old bigoted phart who sits his bum on his thumb, that was the question. As you can see, he didn't ask "how do I fix the bass bump? How do I mount the speakers? So while you are cussing your stupid self into a woman like tizzy(I guess that's what stupid old washed up cross dresser do) here are the facts.

1. The poster recognized that the bass would increase, it would be logical to assume that he knew it needed to be corrected.

2. He asked if there was any other effect. There is no other effect other than the bass boost. So if one wasn't trying to do a psychological analysis on him, and just answered the question, then my answer would have been sufficient. Your stupid a$$ read far into the question than needed.






My question is: where are all of your suggestions of the difficulty involved...need for EQing or anything else for that matter? Yeah, yeah...cut a few holes in the wall, acoustic foam, lick o'paint...piece of cake!

As you can see plainly in the question he didn't ask that at all. He already knew the boost existed, he wanted to know if there were any other serious audio problems. He ask "would the false wall effect anything else", that answer would be no. What he didn't ask;

1. Does this require eq?
2. How do I build to compensate for toe in?
3. How thick must the wall be?
4. How do I build the wall?

His question was simple and easy to understand. WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?. The answer is no, so there was no need to go into EQ, or anything else. Your stupid old a$$ was reading way to far into the question. If he wanted additional information, he could have asked for it. All he wanted to know was " WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?"



I respond, in part:

Yes, you responded with an answer that turned out to be untrue, and not what the poster asked at all. The poster understood the one basic drawback, and just wanted to know if there were any others. He did not ask anything more than that, so there was no need to add anything more than that. He asked nothing about how it can be done, or how difficult it was, he just asked "WOULD THE FALSE WALL EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE?"




To which you get all THXy on us and go into hissy-fit heaven.

Don't think it quite went that way, but if it'll make your sorry butt feel better, okay. ..


Anyone else could say nearly anything they might please, but you get all b!tchy because I("the individual above") have the nerve to correct the all knowing and powerfull OOZE...

Unfortunately you didn't correct me, you got corrected. You said that it could not be done, I said it could, and proved it. Every issue you raised there was a clear answer. I am sorry(not) that you don't know that much about custom install, or I am sure you answer would have been quite different, and you would have found another issue to attempt to challenge me on. You are already our Resident loser, so don't be a stupid old tired loser to boot. So let's get this straight, your issue;

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer.

Well I have proven that they do not have to. Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front and a straight baffle will work.

in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created.

That is a false statement that has been proven false. If you have even basic speaker/room interaction knowledge(which you do not) then you would not have even raised these points. Your ignorance amused me.

Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.

Toe in(no need for toe out whatever that is) can be designed right into the installation. Tweeter dispersion is not affected by baffle mounting. You would have known this if you actually knew more about baffle mounting speakers.

in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

Once again your ignorance of speaker/room interaction reared its ugly old head. You are actually WORSE off mounting the speakers positioned "proud" in respect to the screen. Baffle mounting actually produces a very predictable 4-6db boost, with a falling response as the frequency rises. Overall the curve produced by baffle mounting would be smoother than if he positioned the speakers in the manner you suggest. This may be the only way you know how to position a speakers, and that is why you recommend it. Sometimes old fashion behind the time ideas are not always the best idea's. Move with the times stupid old man. Who corrected who?




And then you go on about "you don't know of any manufacturer, etc. this, that or the other thing"...like that ain't too obvious...

And I was right on that point also. Sore loser


Got that message/messenger bit confused, eh pal?(pal again, used in the idiomatic sense)...

Whatever this means, probably more of the pharty old hick talk. What do you call that dialect, Redneck?


Even a semi-disinterested third party came along and asked if the poster was up to the task, cuz it probably wouldn't be easy...

But what does that have to do with the question WOULD THE FALSE WALL AFFECT ANYTHING ELSE? He never said in his original question that he would build it himself, you just assumed that. And that is what you have done throughout this thread, just assume things. Assumption is the mother of stupidity, and you are quite stupid.


Well, so neither one of us "likes" the other...I won't be losing any sleep over it and I'm sure you won't either so...why not stick your head back up your @$$ and make yourself at home...I'm sure that smooth, pointed dome of yours will make the job easier...try a little Crisco otherwise.

This is nothing more than VERY immature stupid old man rantings. Old dude, you don't have that much longer on this earth. Before you die, try growing up a little and recognizing when you are wrong. In this case you are not just wrong, but dead wrong. So there is no need to get your little tutu in a bunch. I am sure that being a mediocre old dude has made you quite a bitter man. All is not lost though, with all the brain cells that you killed contradicting yourself and being just plain wrong, your stupid butt may not have enough memory to remember how bitter you truely are. Or how dumb you look.

Since you have been proven wrong, I guess any response at this point would be nothing more than personal insults. Not going there anymore.


Oh, BTW...all that cross dressing cr@pola...as I recall you're the one that lives in 'Frisco...

jimHJJ(...bum voyage...)

Oh, but according to HBO the Drag Queens ball is held in your backyard. I heard you won first place this year. Wasn't your name Totalia Loser, or was that Resentia Loser?

[Resident Loser]

...Oh Terrence the Titular...

How does one accomplish this:


...the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall...

"...between a screen mounted on the wall..."I realize that this is quite taxing for you...but, how exactly does one put "speakers"(two, plural) between a screen(one, singular) which itself is to be mounted on a wall?

Doesn't correcting this nonsensical question/statement to this scenario: a screen between two speakers, make more sense? It does to me, that's why I questioned his post.

He doesn't appear to be contemplating putting his speakers behind the screen(He wouldn't need ANY wall in that case)...nor "insetting" them into a wall or baffle or anything else. As I see it, he just doesn't want them out in front(or proud-it's a construction term, you wouldn't understand)of his screen...what don't you get? It seems that he wants his screen to be mounted on a wall whose front surface will lie in the same plane as his speaker's front baffles. I've said this before and his response to my follow-up question to HAVIC indicates that this IS his intent.

His interest seems to be mostly concerned with looks or presentation with an oblique, semi-familiar reference to the potential for sonic pitfalls that might ensue...

Now, If that is not the case, you (and everyone else for that matter) have my full apology for presenting an argument based of a faulty premise, otherwise...

Oh, yeah...BTW the word is prostate...you know that gland of yours that gets massaged when you're prostrate and takin' "deliveries" via the old Hershey Highway...

jimHJJ(...and quite like "Niagra" it ain't a spelling error...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...Oh Terrence the Titular...

How does one accomplish this:



"...between a screen mounted on the wall..."I realize that this is quite taxing for you...but, how exactly does one put "speakers"(two, plural) between a screen(one, singular) which itself is to be mounted on a wall?

Doesn't correcting this nonsensical question/statement to this scenario: a screen between two speakers, make more sense? It does to me, that's why I questioned his post.

You are so perfect and never make mistakes so I know that you don't understand the concept of thinking one thing, and writing something different than what you thought. Or thinking one thing, and have it come out backwards when you write it. I understood what he was asking pretty clearly, inspite of the fact that he mixed his screen and speakers around. Been there, done that.


He doesn't appear to be contemplating putting his speakers behind the screen(He wouldn't need ANY wall in that case)...nor "insetting" them into a wall or baffle or anything else. As I see it, he just doesn't want them out in front(or proud-it's a construction term, you wouldn't understand)of his screen...what don't you get? It seems that he wants his screen to be mounted on a wall whose front surface will lie in the same plane as his speaker's front baffles. I've said this before and his response to my follow-up question to HAVIC indicates that this IS his intent.

Well, your understanding wouldn't square with this statement;

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.

or this one

However after sir terrance statements it seems like it can be done but with careful planning.

So it would seem that was looking to flush mount his speaker in the wall. Hie did want to build a monolith wall with a space between it and the room wall, but his comments did not indicate that he wanted his speakers outside that wall.


His interest seems to be mostly concerned with looks or presentation with an oblique, semi-familiar reference to the potential for sonic pitfalls that might ensue...

Ummm, his comments were not oblique at all, and they didn't seem all that tenative at all. He said plainly he understood there would be a boost in the bass

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases

Doesn't sound oblique to me, he is right.


Now, If that is not the case, you (and everyone else for that matter) have my full apology for presenting an argument based of a faulty premise, otherwise...

Well maybe you are not a total loser after all. How about a oblique loser


Oh, yeah...BTW the word is prostate...you know that gland of yours that gets massaged when you're prostrate and takin' "deliveries" via the old Hershey Highway...

jimHJJ(...and quite like "Niagra" it ain't a spelling error...)

Well, you appear to know way more about this than I do. Personal experience perhaps?

[Resident Loser]

...he doesn't want #1-room

Does he want #2-room with wall? This is the "box"ing he seems to be referring to...IMO...multiple corner loading...

Does he want #3- room with monolith?

Or something completely different?

Based on his response to my questions(particularly HAVICs post #5), I'm guessin' #3...

jimHJJ(...my offer of unconditional apology still stands...)

[Resident Loser]

...after so much clatter, the silence is deafening...

Hey HAVIC...come out, come out...wherever you are...it's safe...I think...If you're still around, can YOU take a gander at the diagrams I posted 10/07/05 and clarify matters a bit...

Actually, opinions would be welcome from any of the members...

jimHJJ(...thanx...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...after so much clatter, the silence is deafening...

Hey HAVIC...come out, come out...wherever you are...it's safe...I think...If you're still around, can YOU take a gander at the diagrams I posted 10/07/05 and clarify matters a bit...

Actually, opinions would be welcome from any of the members...

jimHJJ(...thanx...)

Much of the clatter was you though!

Diagram No.1-Wouldn't solve his problem of having the speakers sticking out from the wall. I believe this is the very thing he didn't want.

Diagram No.2-Is going to present some pretty challenging acoustical problems. First, instead of having two corners in the front of the room, you now have four. Four areas where reflections will pile up to create a resonance. You'll need four bass traps up front instead of two. You will also have more surface area to cover with acoustical foam or panels. I wouldn't recommend this setup, too many reflective surfaces close to the speaker that can create acoustical problems

Diagram No.3-Totally not recommended. You are going to have reflections behind the screen, and off the side and rear walls to contend with. Much of these can be resolved through the use of acoustical panels but you would require alot less treatment with the speakers in wall.

[Resident Loser]

...I may never again make the attempt to have a cogent conversation with you...


Much of the clatter was you though!

It takes two to tango...


Diagram No.1-Wouldn't solve his problem of having the speakers sticking out from the wall. I believe this is the very thing he didn't want.

No $h!t Sherlock...what was your first clue? I addressed it in my first response/questions(post#3)...when I said, given the work involved:


...you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen...

His situation was a "given" and I included it as a baseline diagram.


Diagram No.2-Is going to present some pretty challenging acoustical problems. First, instead of having two corners in the front of the room, you now have four. Four areas where reflections will pile up to create a resonance. You'll need four bass traps up front instead of two. You will also have more surface area to cover with acoustical foam or panels. I wouldn't recommend this setup, too many reflective surfaces close to the speaker that can create acoustical problems

Does this(also from post#3) sound at all familiar?


Are you considering actually changing the room's perimeter so the speakers will be "inset" into the resulting alcoves?

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts. Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.


Diagram No.3-Totally not recommended. You are going to have reflections behind the screen, and off the side and rear walls to contend with. Much of these can be resolved through the use of acoustical panels but you would require alot less treatment with the speakers in wall.

BADA-BING...to what did you think I referring to when it responded(once again post #3):


Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Something like this can also result in less than optimum results due to the sound corridor created.

None of these scenarios are particularly workable and the concept of putting the speakers in your "baffle wall" has it's own set of problems. As in: (a) it won't work with every speaker design, i.e. rearward firing anythings (b) many loudspeakers have placement issues as indicated by the manufacturers specific placement recs and (c) it is highly likely some sort of signal manipulation will be required to fine tune even loudspeakers that are flexible enough to be used in the manner you suggest.

Which is why I prefaced my remarks with:


I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

And closed with this caveat:


...the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction...

Either you are simply guilty of "shooting the messenger" by taking "offense" at everything I post simply because I have posted it OR ...well, the "or" doesn't paint a pretty picture...

jimHJJ(...so we'll just leave it at that...)

[sam9]

Looking at the jpegs (and ignoring the bickering), I suggest in the case of the second JPEG that you consider some sort of sound absorbtion material affixed to the screen housing and facing the speakers. If there are going to be problems from the proposed arrangement they are most likely to be reflections aff the sides ans back of the monitor. Making that area absorptive would reduce that. Conventional wisdom on accoustic treatment has the area behind and immeadiately to the sides of speakers as absorptive as possible anyway.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I may never again make the attempt to have a cogent [conversation with you..

You have to know what you are talking about before you can have a cogent conversation. Since you don't, any future attempt would be impossible anyway.




It takes two to tango..

Sorry, don't dance with men. Especially wannabe intelligent types.




No $h!t Sherlock...what was your first clue? I addressed it in my first response/questions(post#3)...when I said, given the work involved:

Your response disputed my contention that the speaker could be mounted in a baffle wall. None of the diagrams you presented even had examples of the speakers in wall mounted. So what the heck are you talking about here?










His situation was a "given" and I included it as a baseline diagram.



Does this(also from post#3) sound at all familiar?



BADA-BING...to what did you think I referring to when it responded(once again post #3):

Once again, all of your examples didn't address a in wall situation, and that was what the poster was talking about. You are just putting up examples of the screen wall mounted, but the speakers remain in room, that is NOT what the poster is describing at all. IN WALL, IN WALL. Do you understand?








None of these scenarios are particularly workable and the concept of putting the speakers in your "baffle wall" has it's own set of problems. As in: (a) it won't work with every speaker design, i.e. rearward firing anythings (b) many loudspeakers have placement issues as indicated by the manufacturers specific placement recs and (c) it is highly likely some sort of signal manipulation will be required to fine tune even loudspeakers that are flexible enough to be used in the manner you suggest.

Let's address your issues(or really none issues).

A) We already established that baffle mounting won't work with all speakers. But it will work with the posters, and that is the issue. Smart installers wouldn't use speakers with rear ports or drivers, the poster speakers have neither. Non issue.

B) Placement issues are just manufacturer suggestions. And, once again, I know of no speaker manufacturer who lists how far or close the speakers should be placed in relationship to the walls, or what frequency response to expect from any placement. Most speakers are designed and tuned in a reflectionless environments, not your typical room which is full of reflections. No manufacturer has any idea how their speakers are going to perform in anyone room other than their anechoric chamber. Rear wall reflections are not beneficial to speaker performance, they take away from it. That is why most acoustical consultants recommend damping them out with acoustical panels. All a baffle wall does is eleminate them totally, which is not a bad thing.

C) If you know anything about speaker/room intereaction you would know that ALL speakers require some sort of acoustical correction when placed in ANY room. No speaker exibits a flat response in any room(except where it was voiced) so correction, either electronic or acoustical has to be used. Baffle wall mounting requires far less equalization than sitting a speaker out in the room. When you baffle mount, the response of the speaker is far more predictable than sitting it out in the room. You have no rear reflections arriving at different times to contend with, reflections that alter the frequency response of the speaker significantly. You have no waves arriving out of phase with the front wave. Extensive testing using many different kinds of speakers yielded a worse case 6db boost from baffle mounting and that was coming from a tower speaker with a 15" woofer being used full range. The poster speakers do not have drivers any larger than 6", and has the benefit of bass management, so this issue is much more predictable in his case. With bass management employed the most boost the poster will see is probably 3-4db at 80hz, with a downward slope for about half an octave or less. Considerable better than a 3-20db swing you can get with traditional out in the room setups.






Which is why I prefaced my remarks with:

With your lack of knowledge and experience with baffle wall mounting of speakers, you are making it much more difficult than it really is.






And closed with this caveat:

Bass traps are not necessary in baffle mounting because there is no rear wave, and no corner BEHIND the speaker. Your ignorance betrays you.




Either you are simply guilty of "shooting the messenger" by taking "offense" at everything I post simply because I have posted it OR ...well, the "or" doesn't paint a pretty picture...

jimHJJ(...so we'll just leave it at that...)

You came to this thread with an agenda to shoot down the practice of baffle mounting speakers, a practice that you have no experience with, or know nothing about. That is what I was shooting down, your ignorance. You as a person mean zero to me, so I wouldn't bother doing a petty thing like take offense at everything your post. You cannot shoot down what you do not know, or lack experience in as you are attempting to do. This is not about me, this is about the ability of the poster to baffle mount his speaker in a monolith wall, something that can be sucessfully done with alot less acoustical trouble than sitting the
speakers "proud" to the screen. What the poster is attempting is something that is custom, and not traditional, so your traditional approach and reasoning doesn't apply here. Every issue you have raised doesn't really apply to baffle mounting at all.

I really believe you can teach an old dog new tricks if they are willing to learn, and don't believe they know it all. You seem determine to remain just an old dog with old tricks.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Looking at the jpegs (and ignoring the bickering), I suggest in the case of the second JPEG that you consider some sort of sound absorbtion material affixed to the screen housing and facing the speakers. If there are going to be problems from the proposed arrangement they are most likely to be reflections aff the sides ans back of the monitor. Making that area absorptive would reduce that. Conventional wisdom on accoustic treatment has the area behind and immeadiately to the sides of speakers as absorptive as possible anyway.

Sam,
When you baffle mount the speaker, there is no need for reflection control behind the speakers. The baffle wall supresses those very effectively. If we were to use example no.2, you would need acoustical foam about 5-8" on the walls, and bass traps in all corners to supress in resonaces and reflection. With a baffle wall, you need alot less treatment, and no bass traps at all. Remember, that setup creates to corners that weren't there in the first place. Corners are high pressure modes that require very thick foam to control. No need for that with a baffle wall installation.

[Resident Loser]

...I've tried everything, even reducing it to near comic-book form and you still don't get it!!!


You came to this thread with an agenda to shoot down the practice of baffle mounting speakers...

Again, and for the umpteenth time my response was:


I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

I wasn't addressing YOUR "baffle" bit, I was responding to the poster...I said nothing re: In-wall, flush mount, infinite baffle or ANY variation thereof...The poster said he wanted to build a wall...I saw NOTHING that indicated your "baffle" concept was his intent...
I proposed two scenarios which have recently been converted to drawings as .jpegs...namely examples #2 and #3...and consequently THAT IS WHAT I ADDRESSED...has it clicked yet?


...a practice that you have no experience with, or know nothing about. That is what I was shooting down, your ignorance.

What exactly don't I get?...It's a friggin' variation of the older-than-dirt infinite baffle concept and practice, as I have stated all along...AGAIN, not what I saw as HAVICs question...


You as a person mean zero to me, so I wouldn't bother doing a petty thing like take offense at everything your post. You cannot shoot down what you do not know, or lack experience in as you are attempting to do. This is not about me, this is about the ability of the poster to baffle mount his speaker in a monolith wall, something that can be sucessfully done with alot less acoustical trouble than sitting the
speakers "proud" to the screen. What the poster is attempting is something that is custom, and not traditional, so your traditional approach and reasoning doesn't apply here

Is it a baffle or a monolith?...A monolith is a single, stand-alone entity(see .jpeg #3)...a baffle is not. A baffle creates an "artificial" perimeter and a completely distinct interior space...things can be mounted in, or flush with the surface of, your baffle...a monolith by definition simply IS what it is, like an obelisk or the big, black thing in "2001"...there is "no" interior...Do try to learn the distinction...


...Every issue you have raised doesn't really apply to baffle mounting at all....

Quite simply...that's pretty much due to the fact that HAVICs question, AS I READ IT and his responses to my questions(which led me to that understanding) had ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with with any sort of baffle, THX-certified or not...

jimHJJ(...any issues I may have had with your responses are completely superfluous to the posters inquiry...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I've tried everything, even reducing it to near comic-book form and you still don't get it!!!

Maybe because it was delivered in comic book form by a comic book character, that could be possible why. You read one thing, I am reading another.




Again, and for the umpteenth time my response was:

And for the umpteenth time I am saying your lack of experience with custom install is making you think this is harder than it is. It's been done too many times before without all of the hassle you are putting into this,.




I wasn't addressing YOUR "baffle" bit, I was responding to the poster...I said nothing re: In-wall, flush mount, infinite baffle or ANY variation thereof...The poster said he wanted to build a wall...I saw NOTHING that indicated your "baffle" concept was his intent...
I proposed two scenarios which have recently been converted to drawings as .jpegs...namely examples #2 and #3...and consequently THAT IS WHAT I ADDRESSED...has it clicked yet?

The poster wanted his speakers HIDDEN not EXPOSED like you keep doing over and over again. HE DOESN'T WANT THE SPEAKERS TO BE SEEN,

thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

" I feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted to a wall"

He is saying what you keep proposing would look out of place to him. He mentions putting a wall AROUND his speakers. You are attempting to change what he is proposing because I don't think you really can picture what he wants.





What exactly don't I get?...It's a friggin' variation of the older-than-dirt infinite baffle concept and practice, as I have stated all along...AGAIN, not what I saw as HAVICs question...

You don't seem to understand the concept of his speakers in a wall. You seem to think that speakers have to be specially built for this purpose, and most speakers can be adopted for this purpose






Is it a baffle or a monolith?...A monolith is a single, stand-alone entity(see .jpeg #3)...a baffle is not. A baffle creates an "artificial" perimeter and a completely distinct interior space...things can be mounted in, or flush with the surface of, your baffle...a monolith by definition simply IS what it is, like an obelisk or the big, black thing in "2001"...there is "no" interior...Do try to learn the distinction...

So you mean to tell me that no cutouts can be made to accomodate his speakers in a monolith wall? Whatever wall he wants he wants it to be 2-3ft thick which would accomodate his speakers which only have a 20" depth. HE DOESN'T WANT HIS SPEAKER SEEN!!






Quite simply...that's pretty much due to the fact that HAVICs question, AS I READ IT and his responses to my questions(which led me to that understanding) had ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with with any sort of baffle, THX-certified or not...

'thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else"

There is nothing in this question that states that he wants his speakers in the room. Why would he ask about putting a box around a speaker if that was not his intention? HE WANTS HIS SPEAKERS HIDDEN NOT EXPOSED!!




jimHJJ(...any issues I may have had with your responses are completely superfluous to the posters inquiry...)

You really haven't addressed the poster inquiry at all. You are too busy superimposing your views over what he is asking.

[Resident Loser]

You read one thing, I am reading another...

Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.

And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:


I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...


There is nothing in this question that states that he wants his speakers in the room. Why would he ask about putting a box around a speaker if that was not his intention? HE WANTS HIS SPEAKERS HIDDEN NOT EXPOSED!!

And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.


I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.

Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response? Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all. An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness....putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably...flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves) and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design. I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.


I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases.If that is true...

...and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects


would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else"

AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?

The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.


You really haven't addressed the poster inquiry at all. You are too busy superimposing your views over what he is asking.

Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:


If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously

Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Now only HAVIC has THE answer as to his intent...and I doubt he's even still around to provide us with it.

You never know, I would not assume anything. You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.


And FWIW, I have built walls and made structural changes to accommodate for assorted sonic obstacles and have used electronic and other environmental means to smooth out speaker/room response...I know how difficult and time consuming doing these things CAN be, but as an enthusiast/musician/recordist, I was willing to do the things required to suit MY requirements...others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"? You are beginning to sound like Lexmark3200. When you have the right tools and the ablility to understand the measurements, correcting room responses is not that difficult. I can tune a movie theater in fifteen to twenty minutes. You measure, and apply a correction curve. Now if you don't know what you are doing, and cannot effectively interpret your measurements, it will take you quite a long time. You cannot assume that the original poster will not go through whatever it takes to get it right especially given this answer;

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

So he understands that this was not easy, and he also knows the effect of mounting his speakers in a false wall. Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have. YOu are a assuming that he walked away half cocked, and is going to build this wall with no additional information than what we have posted here.







And just how did you arrive at this? I see nothing one way or the other.

When somebody mentions box and false walls, they do not mean sit the speakers "proud" in relation to the wall. Boxing speakers in a false wall has the effect of hiding them out of sight, and since he thinks that i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall. in other words out in the room in front of the wall that the screen would be mounted to. This leads me to believe that he doesn't want them to be seen.





Since YOU seem to agree, kindly elaborate how putting a box within in a box will do ANYTHING to increase bass response Kindly note it's "box" and not "baffle", not "wall"...simply "box"...quite frankly, without further clarification(which I attempted to obtain)it makes no sense at all.

First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.

Mounting the speaker in a box(or cutout in a solid wall) you put that speaker in a high pressure zone(close to the walls). This will excite all modes and nodes in the room. It has much the same effect of pushing a floor standing speaker right up against the front wall. It is called a boundary boost, and why the Genelec speakers have boundary compensation circuits in their design.






An acoustic suspension design or front firing bass-reflex already has had design considerations implemented in an effort to either isolate or use(as in the bass-reflex) the rear wave of the woofer...putting the enclosure "in a box" will change little or nothing, save for increasing the enclosure's apparent wall thickness..

I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)


..putting it into an alcove(a "bigger" box) WILL load the bass response, perhaps uncontrollably.

Since NOBODY mentioned an alcove I do not know what this is brought up either.


..flush mounting it within a wall(NOTE: this is no longer a "box" by anyone's definition) MAY have a marginal effect on the bass response(possibly an unwelcome one, particularly if the room's dimensions are altered to the point of encouraging standing waves)

If you took a monolith wall(solid) cut out a hole in the form of a speaker, that hole is a box. Boxes are empty cavaties that you fill. If the poster cut out a portion of his wall 20" deep that would flush mount his speaker in the wall, and inserted in a box.

All rooms have resonaces or standing waves. If you put a speaker "proud" in respect to a wall as you mention, you are still going to have standing waves, plus you are going to have phasing problems in the bass frequencies as the rear output of the speaker collides with the front output. If I flush mount my speakers, there is no rear wave to interfere with the front wave, and standing waves amplitude is reduced. You are always going to have deminsional resonaces in small rooms because the direct output of the speaker will reflect off of the rear wall, and back at the speaker. But this is alot less complex than the combination of a rear wave, front wave, and deminsional resonace. .







and it will most likely have an effect on the tweeters dispersion charcteristics, particularly if the designer's intent was to minimize cabinet diffraction and the anomolies caused by them...horn loaded or drivers with acoustic lenses will be less affected by such placement...as stated earlier, their patterns are pretty much "fixed" by design.

Sorry, but baffle mounting speakers has absolutely no effect on tweeter dispersion unless tweeter disperse sound 360 degrees. They do not because the wavelengths are too small. Most tweeter don't even disperse their sound 180 degrees. Since the speakers front baffle is closer to the tweeter than the baffle wall itself, how can the tweeter output be effected by the baffle wall. It is more likely that the front baffle of the speaker would be more of a problem than the baffle wall. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength, the more directional the ouput becomes.

THX has measured many speakers in a baffle wall situation. Other than a bass and midbass boost, there is no other effect on the speakers performance. You learn these kinds of things when you attend their classes so you don't have to guess.




I think the Genelec's tweeters can be rotated 90 degrees for horizontal positioning (the manf. rec is vertical), just for this reason. And, from what I understand, frequency response is only a part of any loudspeaker's "sonic signature", so electronic means(EQing, etc.) MAY not be the be-all and end-all in that department. But, that may be close enough for HT.

As THX testing on many kinds of front ported or acoustical suspension speakers have shown, the only performance alteration of any speaker in a baffle wall situation has been a elevated bass and midbass responce. EQ can, and does take care of the problem. The use of bass management helps even more.



.
..and WHY would it be?...unless we are talking "alcove" (the "bigger" box)...and the resultant "loading" effects

Once again, he is not speaking of just putting the speakers in a free standing box. He is referring to putting a speaker in a box cutout in the shape of his speaker. I have already explained the effects of this.




AHA!!! So here we go...first "box"...then "wall" Two different things! You CAN"T make a comparison of one thing...they don't seem to be as interchangeable as you think, eh?

No, not two different things. He is speaking about(and keep this in context) doing a cutout in the shape of his speaker in a solid wall. That is a box


The same effect as what? Putting the speaker "in a box"? That's dependent on the size of the "box" for there to be any appreciable change. False wall? What configuration? Screen support? Infinite baffle? Quite simply, a "false wall" of any shape, design or label will effect EVERYTHING else...and will require after-the-fact tweaking, no simple cut-and-paste.

Jimbob, did you read what he said at all? Why are you having such a tough time putting this together? He asked does putting his 20" speaker in a 2-3ft deep monolith wall have the same bass boosting effect as boxing a speaker in a wall. Aside from the bass boost nothing else is effected.




Superimposing MY views? Like what...THX-certified? Actually, I'm trying to figure out precisely WHAT he's asking and address that...quite unlike yourself who knows exactly what he's suggesting by posting:

This response really surprises me. You act like Mr. knowitall and cannot figure out what this man is trying to say. From just what he has posted he has stated he wants to created a stand alone monolith wall that he can place his speakers in, and mount is screen to. He realizes that boxing speakers in walls will increase the bass, but he wants to know will he experience that same effect with a stand alone monolith wall, 2-3ft deep. Aside from the boost bass he wants to know if there is any other affect on speaker performance. You were so busy aurguing with me, and doing psycho-analysis on him, that you are unable to understand his request. Since you didn't know that speakers can be installed in soffits, maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you cannot figure this out.




Yeah, "IF" is real definitive...

jimHJJ(...your turn Kreskin...)

He is just inquiring, so his whole post is one great big if.

[Resident Loser]

...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!


You have already been tripped up on your assumptions.

Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...


What the hell is a "assorted sonic obstacles"?

Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.

With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.

Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were:


In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

Say it with me now, "reservations"...

And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.

With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.

I also said in post #8:


...you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment...

Then of course we have this bit of paradox:


I cannot see how this relates to what the poster said. He never mentions a freestanding box, he mentions a false wall and boxing(or cutting out a box in the wall and inserting the speakers)....First, so we get an understanding here. He doesn't mean just putting a speaker in a box. He means cutting out a hole in a false wall and sticking his speakers in that hole. Why would you even think he meant just put a speaker in a box when he mentions a false wall? He never said a free standing box, he is associating the box with the wall which implies mounting the speaker in a cutout box within the wall.


Yet in post #2:
...I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable....

HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)...
I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...



Somehow he did not interpret my answer as making it easy as you have

Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:
If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."

But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!


I don't think it's...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...


The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out? Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:


Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall...

jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)

[PAT.P]

In the steel cage Resident Loser & Sir Terrence .

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...HAVICs "if' is OK...your "if" is OK...it's only MY "if" that is faulty...fancy that!

Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based.




Assumptions? I made assumptions? I asked questions in an attempt to avoid assumptions...I laid out possible configurations(in print AND later on diagramatically) and explained my reservations re: each one...

Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry and you came with an agenda not supported by science at all.

Assumption #2
others may not be willing or able to invest the time or seek out the knowledge required, or have the tools and the abilities to use them, which is why I said at the outset:

You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.





Don't like my choice of words for the sake of brevity? What do you think it means? Modes? Nodes? Standing waves? LEDE? Slapback? You're the jargonista...I mean, you're the "exspurt"...BTW, a living room isn't a movie theater...the operative word is "living" as in "living with" in respect to the WAF, commercial venues are what they are...and hardly ever will the twain meet.

Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff. Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?




With respect to all the rest of your missive...context, context, context...You began taking exception to my initial response(post #3) in post #4...Regardless of your opinion, each and every point I brought up is valid and requires some consideration on HAVICs part...period.

Is that so, well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance.

Point #1
Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results

PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed. NONE!!! PSB speakers are measured in anechoic chambers where there are no reflections. When you place these speakers in room where there are many reflections( the average untreated listening room) all bets are off in terms of speaker performance. This goes for ANY speaker in ANY room.

Point #2
...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts.

I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room. It may put an extra obsticle in the room to break certain modes and nodes, but not create more. Secondly a speaker mounted in a monolith wall would have no rearward reflections at all. That would eliminate some modes and nodes by isolating the rear sound waves from the front sound wave leaving the speaker. That is a huge plus, not a concern. Deminsional modes and nodes cannot be avoided and are a problem when you sit any speaker in any room.

Point #3
Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised

There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern. NONE. Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project. If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.

So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge



Never once did I say "couldn't" in fact my exact cautionary words (post#3) were

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

In a baffle mounted design there is no need for free standing bass traps. And if you actually had any experience doing this, you would find that you need FAR less acoustical treatment than if you set your speaker "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen. It is a known fact that a speaker mounted in a baffle wall will measure far better than a speaker sitting in front of a wall. Speakers near walls create complex acoustical reflections, speakers mounted in baffles do not. All you get is the front output from the speakers themselves, a perfect half space environment. Once again you think that rearward reflections are helpful to a speakers response, when it fact they are not.




Say it with me now, "reservations"...

I prefer educated and experienced reservations rather than ignorant reservations.


And, of course, since you can't seem to tolerate any viewpoint or opinion other than your own, the thread thereafter spirals out of control. At issue are the first four posts...everything else is: did, didn't...he said, she said...accompanied by your bits of anecdotal insignificance.

LOL you should read this statement in the mirror jimbob


With regard to you, again, never said "couldn't"...I said there are loudspeakers which simply won't work in such a situation(and provided examples), there are those that should be placed as per manf. guidelines(and provided examples) and there are loudspeakers that, by virtue of their design and features, will make the ordeal less problematic(and again, examples were provided)...all of which you seem to have some sort of problem with.

Since this does not include the poster PSB's it is an irrelevant point. That is what I have a problem with. We are not referring various loudspeakers, we are dealing with the posters PSB's. Its a non brainer that some speakers cannot be baffle mounted, but that is not the case with the poster PSB's.


I also said in post #8:

This doesn't answer the basic question he asked though.

would the false wall effect anything else?

He already knew that a bass boost would occur, so some sort of correction would be needed. I also mentioned that bass boost, but aside from that, there are no other PROBLEMS(not considerations) associated with this setup.






Then of course we have this bit of paradox:



Yet in post #2:

If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do. I am sorry that you still are not clear.


HAVIC "never mentions" something and yet you don't recommend it? (BTW he does to some degree, unfortunately the exact meaning is somewhat vague and questionable IMO...as are other parts of his post)... What definition of "boxing" are YOU addressing as "undesireable" in post #2? Are you seeing alcoves? Clairvoyant are we? Making assumptions perhaps? One of those OK "ifs"? Yep, you have the correct and definitive viewpoint, dontcha'? Careful now, you may be "box"ing yourself in...

Ah, perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!





Your response (Post#2) to HAVICs inquiry in toto:

Gee, an "impressive" win-win situation and shucks, that last sentence sounds fairly simple and straightforward to me...couple it with some jargon and a seemingly innocent, off-the-cuff mention of some THX blather and golly...what's a poor, more-or-less noob poster supposed to believe? Just get out the ol' Sawzall and a bucket of Dutch Boy and we're off..."If you build it they will come..."

Since his question was simple, it required a simple answer. His question did not ask "how difficult is this?" "what is required?, all I did was give him a basic guidline, not detailed instructions. He wasn't asking for detailed instructions, nor did he ask your opinion about the viability of building a monolith wall. He asked a very simple question I brought THX into the picture only because they have the knowledge, measurements, and thorough scientific base to support baffle mounting of speakers. Far more than you measly opinion and reservations.

would the false wall effect anything else?

If he wanted to know more than that, I would have gave him more than that.



But then, I and hermanv go and ruin it...tsk...tsk!

Oh, but do not forget his response to both of you


Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

So you got your assuming butts corrected. You both assumed that he was going to run out and build this wall based on the simple information I provided for a simple question. Your assumptions makes an a$$ out of you, not me!

Funny after telling Hermanv that eq and the use of bass mangement would deal with the issues he raised he responded thusly;


Ah ha! Found the disconnect.

It is a shame he is smart enough to get it and move on. The old dog is relying on his old tricks and cannot seem to do the same. tsk tsk.


Jeepers, that sorta' sounds familiar...to which we later get this response:

Ah but finished that sentence little half cocked old dog


Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

Based on some of the comments by sir terrence about front ported speakers, which mine are, lead me to believe it can be achieved.

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

Nothing from HIS response suggests that my response to him was oversimplified. I just answered a simple question with a simple answer and a simple guidline. You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of, and no experience with. Stupid is what stupid does, and boy do you take the cake, pie, and receipe.





jimHJJ(...tsk...tsk...)

Back atcha old doggy

[Resident Loser]

...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.


Your if's are not educated if's. Your if's are based on what you think, not what is science based....you came with an agenda not supported by science at all...There is no scientific or measured data that support the notion that a baffle wall effects the tweeter frequency response, or dispersion pattern...If required(and it may or may not be) you incorporate the toe in into the design of the wall itself. Not an issue really.

Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?

If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.

In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...

If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement? If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.

And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?

How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.


Assumption #1. The original poster was going to do all or any of this himself. He never stated that at all. As a matter of fact ne never stated he was going to do this at all. All he did was make a simple inquiry...

When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!


Assumption #2...You are assuming that this poster is not going to be more thorough before actually building, or having this wall built. Based on his response, I don't think that is the case.

This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.


Since you made that crap up you'll have to explain its meaning yourself. I personally think its a bunch of fluff.

I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...


Did the poster mention anything about a living room? Nope! Did he mention anything about WAF? Nope! So why are you?

Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.


well let's analyze those points and see if any consideration should be taken, or these points are mentioned out of total ignorance...Point #1...PSB's website has absolutely no recommendations of the distance from the walls their speaker must be placed.

If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:


I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose.

I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement...AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.


Point #2...I cannot see how a stand alone monolith wall will change the shape of the room...

Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...


Point #3...Toe in is easily accomodated during the design phase of the project.

We covered this earlier.


So all of the points you mention are easily dealt with, or not a problem at all. Your issues are raised out of ignorance of the practice of baffle or boxing speakers in walls, not out of knowledge...

"Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.


If there is a single thing that I regret posting, it is this. It only after I read it again that I realized he meant boxing them in the monolith wall. Since he never stated in his original post that he wanted a monolith wall, it wasn't totally clear to me that was his choice. But when he responded to your question with a yes, it became clear to me what he was trying to do.

Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...


Ah perhaps I channeled in the same assumptive and clairovoyant power you did when you assumed he would build the wall himself. My bad, but yours much worse!

Covered that one too.


You on the other hand tried to poopoo something you have no education of...

Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...to deal with the abstract and go beyond the bleedin' obvious would be comical if it weren't so painful.

Ah, so you have to actually back up what you say with proof. Hard for ya huh old doggy. Can't make stuff up and get away with it. To bad.




Sorry, I bunched up all of your "science" refs, but I thought I'd make it a bit easier for you to follow along...Based on my interpretation of HAVICs post and as exemplified by the later diagrams, where is the lack of of science and measureable concerns?

The problems that you listed in your second post do not apply to the flush/baffle mounted design. You are putting the cart before the horse in so many ways its pitful. I don't know how you can interpret HAVIC's post to want his speakers IN FRONT of the walls when he states he wants them boxed in a wall.




If he was thinking alcoves, "boxing" or other euphemism for the layout in diagram(.jpeg #2), even YOU have agreed that there would be too many reflective surfaces and that it would be just cause for concern.

In none of your examples did you put the speakers flush/baffle mounted. I was only commenting on your actual designs, not a design with a flush/baffle mounted speaker. So don't try to apply my comments to anything but your designs.


In .jpeg#3, the monolith wall pictured would also be a "no go" due to the tunnel-like area behind it...

If you knew anything about the dispersion pattern of a baffle mounted speaker, you would see just how stupid this comment is. In a baffle/flush mounted design in a monolith wall, there would be no back wave of sound. So the tunnel like area behind the wall is irrelevant. If you use bass management, this concern becomes even more ignorant.


If it is determined that toe-in is required for proper imaging, how does one accomplish THAT in a flush-mount/"baffle" arrangement?

More cart before the horse thinking. The poster hasn't even chosen a screen size. In the absence of that information, how can one even think about coming to this point. Considering that said poster speakers have a excellent of axis response( 30 degrees off axis ±1.5dB 42-10,000 Hz) he might not even have to take this into consideration. More worries without information=waste of time.


If you incorporate any skewing of the loudspeaker's polar axis, one of two things will occur...you will have to allow the cabinet's outside edge to protrude beyond the plane created by the wall, in which case the enitire project's purpose is defeated. If the tilt is done to obviate that possibility, and the inner edge is withdrawn behind the wall's plane, the tweeter's dispersion pattern will most certainly be compromised...so now, in the design stage, some angling of the wall will be required or other structural compromises will have to be devised. Getting less and less simple. Are we thinking some variant on an exponential horn built into the wall? Well that's gotta' have a measureable effect.

For people like you who seperate recycleable goods for a living, curving a wall to accomodate toe in might be pretty difficult. But it is nothing for somebody who has a little construction experience, or one who hires a person with construction experience, this is nothing. Since the poster has NEVER said who was going to build this wall, this is another waste of time thought. More cart before the horse thinking.


And what about the wall itself? If your "baffle" changes the volume(as in cubic feet) or other salient room dimensions, so as to excite standing waves or create other anomolies, doesn't that give one pause? Standing bass-traps anyone?

You seem to have a profound ignorance of the difference between standing waves, and room resonances. First how would a stand alone baffle wall effect the internal space of the room. If there is a space behind it, then it would not stretch from wall to wall in the actual room. It would take up the center portion of the room leaving the sides open. That would not change the overall volume of the room, just put an obsticle in it. Secondly, there would be no standing waves to excite. A trip to school for ya old dog. Standing waves occur when a speakers omnipolar pattern(in the bass) of waves(front wave, rear reflections) spread out and interact with one another in the room. This leads to standing wave issues in small rooms. In a baffle/flush mounted setup there is no omnipolar pattern in the bass region. That would be supressed by the baffle wall, so there would be no standing waves to excite. Only speakers sitting out in a room suffers from standing waves issues, not speakers mounted in a baffle/flush design. This is some more of that conventional thinking trying to deal with custom design issues. Its apples and oranges.
Room resonances occur whether the speakers are out in the room, or baffle/flush mounted. They occur because of the room deminsions. Not the same thing as a standing wave your smartness.


How are any of these concerns not "scientific" enough? Certainly seems to get a bit more complex than your initial response indicates.

They are not scientific because they don't apply to a baffle/flush mounted design. Its just that simple. My intial response was inline with the original question, your responses are WAY out of line of the original question, and Stevie Wonder can see that.




When exactly did I say HE was going to do anything himself...I used the phrase "the hassles of construction". Fairly all-encompassing I think...Are the limitations of your thought process THAT constricted?...Have you ever dealt with contractors? There's more to any construction job than simply the pitfalls of whackin' yer own thumb with a hammer!

For someone in construction designing a stand alone baffle wall, even one with a angle in it to accomodate toe in, is nothing. The guy I work with can do a cinemascope like curved wall, so a wall with a angle ain't a thang. This is no hassle of construction, this is nothing more than the limited thinking of a wanna be smart person trying to figure out something way beyond his scope.




This is a public forum...people other than those involved sometimes read the threads (although participation seems to be running pretty low these days)...I make no assumptions as to the intelligence or ability levels of ANY readers...Unless otherwise indicated(by prior discourse perhaps), I try to cover all bases on a fairly basic level, the old LCD(no, not liquid crystal display) principle. Consequently, when I see something that answers a potentially complex issue with an entirely simplistic response, I react.

Riiight total loser. You were so busy analyzing this guys thinking, that you didn't even answer the question as it was asked. would the false wall effect anything else?

The answers you gave are well beyond the scope of this question since no other design parimeters have been discussed. You are attempting to read much further than the poster question, and that is why your comments seem so stupid and out of scope. The question was simplistic, and so was the answer. Every issue you raise is completely out of ignorance, not intelligence. The poster didn't need your help at all. He even had to remind you to stick with the question.



I have to explain nothing...I chose to use "sonic obstacles" as a catch-all for simplicity's sake...surely being "in the biz" you've heard some of those terms I used in answer to your inquiry...

Right, and I'll use standing waves to denote a room deminsion resonance. In the biz we do not try and demonstrate how we can use words to confuse the hell out of our clients. Slap echo, standing waves, room resonances are common audio language, not some fluff crap that you think up just to make things easier for you. The world doesn't revolve around you, or you lack of education and experience in custom installation, or the terms that go along with it.




Did I say HE did? You mentioned analyzing a movie theater in minutes...my specific experience has involved living space and the commensurate WAF...The latter has more far-reaching ramifications and I think most would agree with that concept...does that answer your question? Since you do have that void in your perceptive abilities, perhaps not.

He didn't say he had a wife. He didn't say he had children, all he asked waswould the false wall effect anything else?. It is obvious that you don't have any experience as it applies to the poster question, or your answer and questions would have been much more applicable to what the poster was asking. The only questions and problems you brought up are based on information that is not given, or not applicable to baffle/flush mounting at all.





If memory serves, YOU were the one who went down this road when you said in post #4:

However you did not address this in respect to PSB speakers which have absolutely no recommendation on placement of their speakers. You name other speaker manufacturers that have placement RECOMMENDATIONS, but nothing specific as you are trying to allude to. A recommendation is very different than a specific placement instruction.



I provided more than a few who most certainly do and while PSB has no specific distances, they provide very general placement guidelines and speaker/speaker/listener distance ratios...and as I recall I touched on them in post #6 and advised HAVIC to give them a re-read...However, HAVICs T65s ARE marketed as towers and they are designed for free-field placement and caveats are stated with regard for wall and corner proximity placement..

Your room is not a free field environment. A free field environment is an environment free of reflections like an anechoic chamber. PSB measures and voices their speakers in this kind of environment, not your room. If I mounted his speakers in a environment where only its front output is measured(a baffle/flush mount) it would measure substantially better than if I placed that speaker out in the room. I would gladly correct a 4-5db boost in the bass that you get from baffle mounting a speaker, to the 5-20db deviation you get in most listening rooms with the speakers mounted in front of the walls. Just because the only thing YOU know how to do is the traditional way of speaker positioning doesn't mean that its the only way to place the speakers. Remember JBL 4311, 4311B, and 4312? Well they were never designed for soffit mounting, but they are found in thousands of recording studios all over the world in that position. Its called adaptability. Some speakers can be adapted, some can't. The poster PSB can easily be adapted to this purpose as there is nothing in their design that is unusual.




.AND they also produce in-wall and in-cabinet models that are equally evironment-specific. In fact, the in-cabinet models have user adjustable "boundary compensation" switches. To most, logic would dictate a very specific product usage...and do try to recall, there are others who do have systems with rearward-firing ports or other design considerations that preclude any other placement schemes. Things just aren't so simple.

A parametric or 1/3 octave eq is much more flexible than boudary compensation cirucuit found in most speakers. The only account for placement IN FRONT of a wall, not in it. A parametric or 1/3 octave eq can provide exact correct for the measured problem of baffle mounting, a boudary compensation circuit cannot. It has preset filters. Once again you are harping on SPECIFIC use, and I have shown that some speakers(the JBL 4311 are a perfect example) can be adapted to baffle.flush mounting with no problem. The poster speakers do not have rearward ports, so this shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Once again you are adding things to the discussion that are not applicable to the posters setup.




Again, I'll refer you to .jpeg #3...see the monolith...see the existing rear perimeter wall...see the space bettween the two...that will change the sonic shape of the room...waybackwhen, before electronic reverberation, recording studios used duct work along with strategically placed speakers and mikes to simulate air and space...without some sort of mechanical dampening, this wall arrangement will have a similar, albeit less pronounced, effect...again not just a lick o'paint and toodles...

The speakers once again would have to have a backwave to be effected by the space. Since baffle/flush mounted speakers do not have one, this is not applicable to baffle/flush mounted designs. In a baffle/flush mounted design, what happens in front of the baffle is the only consideration that has to be taken. Your lack of understanding of baffle/flush mounting a speaker in betraying you at every turn. Did the poster mention any room deminsions? I think not!




We covered this earlier.

We covered all of this before, now can you shut up already???




"Quoth the raven"...sez you...A wise man expects the unexpected, only a fool thinks he has all the answers.

Not much is unexpected from the poster request, only a fool can't see that.




Do I hear the sounds of a Mexican hat dance done to the strains of "La Cucharacha"...And BTW, nice to see you've learned a new word..."monolith"...you still aren't using it quite right, but it sounds like a real impressive humdinger of a word...like "baffle" and THX...

Its pretty sad that you haven't learned squat about basic acoustics, and speaker/room interactions, or this whole debate might be worth something for you in the end.




Covered that one too.

So when do you shut up already???




Me no-no poo-poo...me show other side of coin and you no likey...

jimHJJ(...ain't life a b!tch...)

Its a shame your other side of coin doesn't work with this specific kind of design. So wrong coin jimbob. You do not know what I like or dislike, keep with what you know and it should take you about 3 millisecond to figure that out.

[Smokey]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"? :D

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"? :D

My point exactly!

[This Guy]

i dont understand how some of you people get so upset at one another on an internet forum. You dont know the person and never will, so there's no need to argue. Just save some time and answer the guys question and end it.

[Resident Loser]

Boy, does it take 49 responses and twenty million quotes and unquotes to answer a simple question as "how does a false wall would effect the audio sound"? :D

...we are well beyond "answering a question"...It's like this...good ol' Terrence the Interminable tells the poster, "...sure, punch a couple of holes in the wall, pop in the speakers, and you're good to go...".

I disagree, and stated my position as to why. TtT simply has a problem with that...how dare anyone question his "expurtise"...I purport to be no "exspurt" and my experience(regardless of TtTs opinion) tells me the project isn't a simple one with simple solutions...in fact it could prove to be more trouble than it's worth...simply providing an alternate POV...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

[gonefishin]

*bump*

:p

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...we are well beyond "answering a question"...It's like this...good ol' Terrence the Interminable tells the poster, "...sure, punch a couple of holes in the wall, pop in the speakers, and you're good to go...".

And this was all I said? Bull old dude This is what I said

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room.(that would be standing waves) THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

and this

Installing baffle walls is a common practice in THX certified rooms. I have done at least three installations using baffle walls that I can remember(I am sure there is more), and none of the problems that the individual above me listed ever showed up. While it must be carefully designed, it is doable

Did you forget the increase bass tremedously part? Or how about the carefully designed part? I mentioned the only acoustical issue you get from this mounting, and gave him a simple guidline to work with in terms of mounting. What he didn't ask for was specific construction answers, acoustical issues unrelated to this kind of install, no mention of the need for toe in, and all the other crap you brought to the table. Half the crap you mentioned there wasn't enough information to even address.



I disagree, and stated my position as to why. TtT simply has a problem with that...how dare anyone question his "expurtise"...I purport to be no "exspurt" and my experience(regardless of TtTs opinion) tells me the project isn't a simple one with simple solutions...in fact it could prove to be more trouble than it's worth...simply providing an alternate POV...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

Your position was a position of complete ignorance of this kind of installation. The kinds of acoustical issues you brought up are not issues for this kind of install. If you have ANY experience doing this kind of install, the kinds of issues you raise would be in line with this kind of setup. The rather silly thing that makes me laugh is that you are arguing against something that has been done over and over again. You need to check out more magazines that feature custom installed hometheaters. Several things that you seem to forget constantly is;

He never asked any constructions questions.
He never stated a room size
He never stated a screen size
He didn't say HE would build it
He never mentioned a budget
He never said he was married or had children, a dog, or a horse.
He never asked was the easy or hard to do.

In spite of this, you still brought some of these up with absolutely no information. You call that a POV, or just fishing for a problem in a situation you don't understand. You know, just throw crap out there and see what sticks. Now had you have asked about vibration control, differences between flush mount in a cutout hole and mounting the speakers to the frame, these are issue related to this kind of setup. Not standing waves, not the lack of rearward waves effect the speakers sound, not creating more acoustical problems(because it doesn't) or any of the other non flush/baffle mounted issues you raised. Those issues you raised are problems with in room speakers, not baffle/flush mounting. You may call it a POV, I call it complete ignorance.

It is completely disingenuous of you to come here and represent yourself as the saviour of HVAIC from misinformation. Your created more misinformation and dispelled nothing. You didn't even address my responses to your so called POV

[Resident Loser]

...what you really said was:


If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

...and you pretty much would have left it that way if I hadn't put that bug up your @$$...perhaps if you had the forethought to include...
While it must be carefully designed, it is doable in your initial response, I might have been inclined to let you slide...probably not, but maybe...and anyway, how do you know he wasn't ready to whip out the ol' Sawzall and start on this project simply because you intimated it was a piece of cake and would probably cure cancer and solve world hunger to boot?

Do make a note for future reference YOUR use of the word "if"...conjecture on your part is OK, however if I choose to raise some doubt it is verboten, eh?

I included everything I did simply to counter your overly simplistic answer, sorry you no likey!

And again, for the gazillionth time...


The rather silly thing that makes me laugh is that you are arguing against something that has been done over and over again.

When what I actually said was:


Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment.

Given the choice(and since they make 'em for multiple environments) why would one want to use a speaker optimized for free-field use, when a flusnh-mount or cabinet-mount model is available?...as in the case of PSB. It'll only require that much more tweaking...

Why use the Genelecs which are near field radiators and which should be toed-in, as per spec, completely out of context?

Why put your boots in the oven and expect them to be seen as biscuits?

The answer is simple...HT is simply a medium for laser-totin' mechanical lizards...accuracy simply isn't of paramount concern...it's all nothing but one-upsmanship and old fashioned popcorn makers...and ooh's and aah's...


You didn't even address my responses to your so called POV

There are around 55 posts, roughly half of which are mine...if you don't have all the answers you need, the problem isn't mine...

jimHJJ(...and it really p!$$es you off...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...what you really said was:



...and you pretty much would have left it that way if I hadn't put that bug up your @$$...perhaps if you had the forethought to include... in your initial response, I might have been inclined to let you slide...probably not, but maybe...and anyway, how do you know he wasn't ready to whip out the ol' Sawzall and start on this project simply because you intimated it was a piece of cake and would probably cure cancer and solve world hunger to boot?

Listen, this is not about you no matter how much you attempt to make it. It is about the posters question, something you failed to answer even after 27 or so responses. Your responses didn't even respond to the basic question that was asked {b}would the false wall effect anything else?[/b]. Your responses brought up issues related speakers out in the room, not flush/baffle mounted. Because of this, it was of no help at all. Of course, this wasn't about the question the poster asked was it?



Do make a note for future reference YOUR use of the word "if"...conjecture on your part is OK, however if I choose to raise some doubt it is verboten, eh?

Do make note of the mistletoe located conviently on my coattails. In the future when raise some doubt, make sure its appropriate to the design that discussed. You were totally off the mark on this one.


I included everything I did simply to counter your overly simplistic answer, sorry you no likey!

The question was simple, the answer was simple. Only an idiot thinks he needs to rewrite the constitution just to answer the question. You included everything you did, because you are not familar with this particular kind of installation. So what you did was throw everything including the kitchen sink,to hide your ignorance(which it did not) and make a feeble attempt to counter my response. Not very effective, and not particularly helpful to the original poster. You are welcomed to challenge anything I say at any time.


And again, for the gazillionth time...



When what I actually said was:

You should have stop right there. The rest of your responses were not helpful,.




Given the choice(and since they make 'em for multiple environments) why would one want to use a speaker optimized for free-field use, when a flusnh-mount or cabinet-mount model is available?...as in the case of PSB. It'll only require that much more tweaking...

How do you know it requires more tweaking, have you tried it? Do you actually have any hands on experience, or are you just guessing? You use the Genelecs because they work, and they are better than what is being marketed as in wall or flush mounted. PSB are optimized in a reflection free anechoic chamber, not a room, not in your room, and not in the posters room. PSB does not have any idea where their speaker is going to be installed.


Why use the Genelecs which are near field radiators and which should be toed-in, as per spec, completely out of context?

They require toe in when the installation requires it. They do not ALWAYS require toe in. Your still thinking inside the box. We use them because they work exceptionally well in this kind of design. Toe in is a recommendation, not a specification must.


Why put your boots in the oven and expect them to be seen as biscuits?

I guess for the same reason why you think a standing wave is a room resonance.


The answer is simple...HT is simply a medium for laser-totin' mechanical lizards...accuracy simply isn't of paramount concern...it's all nothing but one-upsmanship and old fashioned popcorn makers...and ooh's and aah's...

All of this is based on your personal experience? Or are you just complaining that the industry has grown past your knowledge. Have you ever heard any custom installed theaters. Is your opinion educated, or just some more ranting and raving because you just don't get it?




There are around 55 posts, roughly half of which are mine...if you don't have all the answers you need, the problem isn't mine...

jimHJJ(...and it really p!$$es you off...)

You call those answers? It was more like crap on the wall that is not even appropriate for this kind of installation. You don't know what pisses me off. I certainly am not bothered by the musing of an old man well past his time, with no current information on current audio technology. Remeber the question waswould the false wall effect anything else?
. You offered nothing to answer that question nor to this discussion

[Resident Loser]

...I provided ALL the info I that did (kitchen sink included) to counter your overly-simplistic response. PERIOD, end of story...sorry you no likey.

My take(and consequently MY response) on the "false wall" was as I outlined in text AND as I presented in those .jpegs. PERIOD, end of THAT story...


I guess for the same reason why you think a standing wave is a room resonance.

You mean it's not?!?!? Funny thing, these folks seem to think so:

http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eemusic/etext/acoustics/chapter1_standing.shtml

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/standw.html

I'll guess you have some new and revolutionary take on what currently comprises a standing wave in the scientific community...Oh, do 'splain Lucy...

For example you have a room whose dimensions are AxBxC...you have a loudspeaker whose low-end FR is limited so that the interaction, in that room, insofar as standing waves is concerned, is nil or negligible. Given the fact that as we move up in frequncies the wavelengths become shorter...so if we shorten a room dimension so that now it will line up with the wavelength of a lo-end freq the loudspeaker is more capable of producing, something is probably going to happen...nodes or anti-nodes...but something. Caveat emptor...

jimHJJ(...or as in your case "cabeza empty"...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I provided ALL the info I that did (kitchen sink included) to counter your overly-simplistic response. PERIOD, end of story...sorry you no likey.

Not end of story, you provided that information because you didn't know what you are talking about. Its funny, you still don't. Simple question requires simple answer. Get that simpleton?


My take(and consequently MY response) on the "false wall" was as I outlined in text AND as I presented in those .jpegs. PERIOD, end of THAT story...

Unfortunately it didn't even come close to describing what the poster wanted.. Sorry YOU is wrongy. Speakers boxed in a free standing solid wall, get the concept? You wanna try again, and please put the speaker IN THE WALL.




You mean it's not?!?!? Funny thing, these folks seem to think so:

http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eemusic/etext/acoustics/chapter1_standing.shtml

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/standw.html

I'll guess you have some new and revolutionary take on what currently comprises a standing wave in the scientific community...Oh, do 'splain Lucy...

You still do not get it.

These standing wave modes arise from the combination of reflection and interference such that the reflected waves interfere constructively with the incident waves. An important part of the condition for this constructive interference for stretched strings is the fact that the waves change phase upon reflection from a fixed end. Under these conditions, the medium appears to vibrate in segments or regions and the fact that these vibrations are made up of traveling waves is not apparent - hence the term "standing wave".

In the case of a loudspeaker in a baffle there is no rear wave colliding with incidental waves in opposite directions coming at the listening position. There is a single incidental wave coming from the front baffle(which the ears hears first), and reflections from the back wall arriving MUCH later(which the ear interprets as another event). In the case of a speaker out in the room(can anyone say proud to the wall) you have the front wave arriving first, and close arriving second waves reflected off the front and side walls near the speaker arriving next. These waves are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Notice in the text where is says An important part of the condition for this constructive interference for stretched strings is the fact that the waves change phase upon reflection from a fixed end.. In order for a standing wave to be audible there must be a flip in phase. This can only happen if the speakers sits IN FRONT of the wall, and you hear a combination of the direct, and later arriving reflected signals. That is what creates standing waves. If there is no combining of incident, and later arriving reflections, then there cannot be a audible standing wave. Installing a speaker in a baffle wall supresses any late arriving reflections that would be out of phase, so only the incident wave is heard. Hence, no exciting of standing waves. Since the speaker is closer to the baffle wall, it places the speaker in a high pressure zone which accounts for the boosting of the bass. Much like what you get when you push a sub against a single wall. Room resonances can occur at all frequencies, standing waves are a low frequency occurence period. Not the same thing Methuselah



For example you have a room whose dimensions are AxBxC...you have a loudspeaker whose low-end FR is limited so that the interaction, in that room, insofar as standing waves is concerned, is nil or negligible. Given the fact that as we move up in frequncies the wavelengths become shorter...so if we shorten a room dimension so that now it will line up with the wavelength of a lo-end freq the loudspeaker is more capable of producing, something is probably going to happen...nodes or anti-nodes...but something. Caveat emptor...


First, and once again, you are mixing up room deminisional resonances and standing waves. Room deminsional resonances are resonances based on room deminsions. A room that is 14ft long will have a room resonance of 40hz. This resonance is not out of phase, but in phase when arriving at the ears Standing waves are a different animal altogether. They come from the interaction of a series of reflections combining with a incident wave and flipped out of phase and only occur in a speakers omnidirectional radiation pattern which are in a speakers low bass frequencies(which excludes baffle/flush mounted designs). Two different animals that when combined together(can anyone say proud to the wall) makes things alot worse than if you have a single incedental wave with a boost in bass of about 3db.

Did the poster mention that he wanted to shorten the room deminisions? No! A free standing baffle wall does not shorten a room's deminisions. It cannot since it is not attached in anyway to the orginal rooms walls. Hence FREE STANDING. You have not change the fundemental deminsion of the room, there is just a barrier there. This would break up any side to side room modes, especially a wall 2-3ft thick.

The reality is without room deminsions from the poster, your weak attempt at saving your face is useless.


jimHJJ(...or as in your case "cabeza empty"...)

In your case "don't know ya stuff". Surf the internet, find a link, and thinks ya got it. NOT!!!

[hermanv]

At least we taught that HAVIC guy never to show his face around here again!

[Resident Loser]

...you wouldn't get it if it were on your kitchen table in a big, brown bag marked "IT"...

For all the kiddies in the peanut gallery, let's start with a few definitions and/or references:

http://www.atis.org/tg2k/_standing_wave.html

"Standing wave: In a transmission line, a wave in which the distribution of current, voltage, or field strength is formed by the superposition of two waves propagating in opposite directions, and which wave is characterized by a series of nodes (maxima) and anti-nodes (minima) at fixed points along the transmission line. Note: A standing wave may be formed when a wave is transmitted into one end of a transmission line and is reflected from the other end by an impedance mismatch, i.e., discontinuity, such as an open or a short. Synonym stationary wave."

In this instance, even though the energy we are transmitting is an acoustic wave and our "impedance mismatch" is a wall, this definition is still applicable.

And then from:

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html?page=2

...in a nutshell:

"Standing waves and room resonance modes

Any time you have a pair of parallel reflective surfaces (like room walls, or the floor and ceiling), you're going to experience some degree of a phenomenon known as standing waves. Standing waves distort the bass and lower midrange frequencies from 300 Hz on down... Standing waves are created when sound is reflected back and forth between any two parallel surfaces in your room. They affect frequencies below 300 Hz...A room's primary or "axial" resonance modes are based on the room's three main axes: length, width, and height. These resonance modes create bass peaks and dips of up to 10 dB throughout the room!"



http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/standing-wave.asp

"Standing Wave
Low frequency anomaly or distortion created when a certain frequency is reproduced whose size has some special relation to the room or object it is produced in (wavelength the same size as the room dimensions) resulting in the room or object resonating with the sound and increasing the strength of the sound (the sound wave does not diminish and may instead increase as it interacts with its surroundings). The end result of a standing wave is a very loud signal greater than that presented by the original signal. The sound wave is essentially amplified by the space in which it exists."


http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/basement_home_theater.html

...Pariticularly the following:

"Choose the Correct Room Shape

If possible, avoid square rooms, because deep bass sound waves really misbehave in square rooms. They produce “standing waves,” which result in areas of extreme bass emphasis and no audible bass. Trying to fix the standing-wave problem after the fact is virtually impossible. Instead, select a rectangular shaped room with the dimensions (length, width and height) not evenly divisible by a common denominator. For example, don't choose a room 24 x 16 x 8 ft.; instead lay out dimensions of 23 x 13 x 7 feet. That way, you'll minimize standing waves."

There are more. They basically say the same thing...anyone interested can Google "audio standing waves" or "definition of standing waves"...don't take my word for it, check and see...We are not afraid! At least I'Mnot.

Anywho, back at the ranch...


In the case of a loudspeaker in a baffle there is no rear wave colliding with incidental waves in opposite directions coming at the listening position...etc.

We aren't talking about "rear waves"...can you say red herring?...All loudspeakers attempt to eliminate (as in infinite baffle, acoustic suspension) or use/control (as in transmission line, bass reflex, ported)those...standing waves are a product of frequency vs. room dimensions REGARDLESS OF SPEAKER TYPE...free-field...in wall...in ceiling...in your shorts...If the conditions are right, standing waves ARE a reality as long as there are two(or more) parallel reflecting surfaces...sooo, bada-bing, bada-boom, bada-bite-me...


Did the poster mention that he wanted to shorten the room deminisions? No! A free standing baffle wall does not shorten a room's deminisions. It cannot since it is not attached in anyway to the orginal rooms walls. Hence FREE STANDING. You have not change the fundemental deminsion of the room, there is just a barrier there. This would break up any side to side room modes, especially a wall 2-3ft thick.

According to your initial "IF"y response, that's what you responded with...simply build a "baffle wall" and hide your PSBs...If that doesn't change a dimension or two I can't think of what would...'twern't 'til I voiced my objections that we got any sort of clariciation (as vague as it was) on the matter...cheez-and-crackers, do you actually think the folks who may have been following this object lesson in futility are as dumb as you are? Let's simplify matters...

Post #1. Pooor HAVIC asks a question...

Post #2. TtT provides the infamous and simplistic "stickin' 'em in a wall is bettr'n canned beer" response...

Post #3. RL says no, no ,no...not so simple...because...

TtT scrambles for the smoke and mirrors...

jimHJJ(..."save face"?...)

[GMichael]

You guys are so great. I would be bored as h.ll if it weren't for this thread.

[Resident Loser]

...from the Yogi Berra school of thought...


Room deminsional resonances are resonances based on room deminsions.

...and you can observe a lot by just watching...

BTW, all that text you posted with the reflected and incidental waves wasn't an ad for Bose speakers...it was an explanation of standing waves with regard to strings and air columns...destructive and non-destructive interference are simply points where sound is either augmented or cancelled(e.g. in-phase or out-of-phase) on a vibrating string or column of air...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH early or late reflections from a loudspeaker. Nice basket of apples and oranges you got there fella...do try to read(and understand) ALL the links within the links provided, it tends to make more sense that way...


In order for a standing wave to be audible there must be a flip in phase

B..b...b....but if there is a flip in phase, and it's a stationary wave...th..th...th....then it's out-of-phase and nothing is audible...QUICK!...somebody get MIT on the line the laws of physics are NOT immutable???? RUN FOR YOUR LIVES...THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

No, no...sorry it's just TtT mis-reading and mis-applying those dang diagrams again...


This can only happen if the speakers sits IN FRONT of the wall, and you hear a combination of the direct, and later arriving reflected signals. That is what creates standing waves.

No, not really...THAT'S called "Stereo Everywhere" and I think Bose may have the copyright on that...Actually, it's the passengers on the ship leaving the dock that are responsible for standing waves...

jimHJJ(...and pal (generic) yo' ship done sailed...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Room resonances are not created randomly. They have to be stimulated by a sources located near the rooms boundary's. A speaker on a stand in the middle of the room will not excite or drive any of the a rooms modes. A speaker on a stand against the front wall will excite a room resonances associated with the length of the room(front to back), but is not likely to excite any room modes associated with floor to ceiling, or side to side boundaries as it is not efficiently coupling with these boundaries. A speaker against the front wall and on the floor will couple efficiently with both the floor to ceiling and front to rear axial modes. A speaker on the floor and in a corner will excite ALL room modes efficently and cause AUDIBLE standing waves to be heard if you are situated near the room boundaries. Certain condition must be met to make standing waves audible. Your sources must be near room boundaries, and so do your ears. Once you decouple either from the boundaries of the room, room modes and nodes are not efficiently driven, and become less audible.

The reason standing waves are a problem at frequencies below 300hz is because this is the frequency that speakers begin to couple with the room boundaries more efficiently. As the dispersion pattern of the speaker becomes more omnidirectional, the better chance the speaker has of efficiently coupling with the boundaries of the room and stimulating a room modes. A speaker that never becomes omnidirectional will not efficiently couple with the room boundaries.

How does this relate to what the poster ask? The poster wants to erect a stand alone wall(that is decoupled from every room boundary except the floor) and flush mount his speakers in that wall. RL says this will create more acoustical problem and will likely stimulate standing waves in the room. He suggest that it might be better just to install them "proud" with the wall as if that will make acoustical problems go away. Wrong, it will make them worse. The poster has a sub, and it is likely it will produce all of the deep bass from the system. Since the poster has a Yamaha receiver it is likely the crossover point to the sub is 90hz. The posters main speakers are tall and narrow baffled tower, that are pretty deep in depth. The drivers are 6.5" woofers. If placed in front of the wall as RL suggests, it is likely at sometime before 90hz that this speakers output will become omnidirectional, and bass frequencies would begin to wrap around the cabinet and engage the rooms front wall. This will excite the room front to back axial mode. The fact that the speaker sits on the ground already will excite the rooms floor to ceiling axial mode. There will also be early and late arriving reflections that smear imaging, and changes the frequency response of the speaker at the ears. Hardly less problems

The poster did not say how wide this stand alone wall would be, but he did suggest up to 3ft deep. The wavelengths of the bass would have to be pretty long(deep bass)to wrap around this baffle wall, and engage the rooms front to back axial modes. They would have to be VERY long to engage any of the rooms natural boundaries. Since the poster has a subwoofer, it is not likely his main speakers that are in the wall would produce any bass with wavelengths long enough to engage any room mode. The speaker never radiates in a omnidirection pattern, not at any frequency it will likely be producing. That means no early and late arriving reflections, and no stimulating of the room axial modes and nodes. The baffle wall will create a boost in the mid bass, and the speaker is on the floor which will excite the rooms floor to ceiling mode. Both of these CAN be eq'd(especially the baffle wall boost since it is in phase with the direct output of the speaker itself). What RL proposes would require more acoustical foam and eq than baffle/flush mounting. The monolith wall is not near any boudaries, so it would be pretty hard to stimulate or drive any of the rooms modes.

RL, you just cannot mention standing waves as a stand alone issue. Standing waves and room modes have to be stimulated by the source. The closer to the room boundaries you locate the source(and your ears) the more profound standing waves become. If you limit the dispersion pattern of the speakers at bass frequencies(a baffle/flush mounting will do just that) then you decrease the chances of the speaker to interact with the rooms boundaries. Thus you do not stimulate or drive the rooms modes.

Your contention that baffle/flush mounting would be worse is not true at all. What you suggested would require twice the work to get right, not to mention more acoustical control. Your suggestion has more chance of exciting room modes than mine.

[Resident Loser]

...I propose I attempted to add information to help guide the poster in making a decision...

I propose the initial question was vague enough for me to propose two specific scenarios which I REJECTED for various reasons...

I propose that regardless of your protestations, I stand by my response to HAVIC...

I propose we are well past "helping" the initial poster and have been for some time...

I propose any relevance to HAVICs inquiry ceased somewhere around post #4...no, make that precisely at post #4...in fact the response in post #2 is highly questionable...

I propose you wouldn't know a standing wave from a standing rib roast...some "exspurt"...

I propose your "expurtise" is limited to reading trade mags that have been left around by legit acousticians/installers...

ERGO:

I propose that, you sir, are an idiot...an immature, emotional, ego-centric, know-it-all idiot to boot...

jimHJJ(..and I am done with you...sorry ericl, there goes your "hit" count...)

[Florian]

Will you two please shut up?
LOL, i am just kidding. Its fun to see other people fight like i sometimes do.

Cheers

Flo

[Resident Loser]

...of audio wisdom,contained here:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?postid=110152


Well i woudnt call them fullrange just wired in series i thinkand they are horribly inefficent

...you might wanna' think twice before getting "too" involved...

Series? Parallel? This affects bandwidth how? I'd have to refer to the schematic, but I'm fairly certain they're actually both...given the nine drivers involved, such internal wiring is required to present a nominal 8 Ohm load to the driving amp...and as stated in my response, in the thread from whence your quote originates, Series one and two were of an inefficient acoustic suspension design requiring 100Wpc to get going...the latter(and current models) are ported and require around 10Wpc; far more efficient.

Besides there is no fight...I tend to refrain from a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

jimHJJ(...and, as stated in my previous response, I'm done...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I propose I attempted to add information to help guide the poster in making a decision...

Unfortunately your so called information is not applicable to what the poster is asking. Can't get standing waves, Room modes, or dog crap unless the conditions exist for their stimulation. Had you have given the posters question some real thought, you would have plainly seen that what he proposes is doable if he planned carefully.




I propose the initial question was vague enough for me to propose two specific scenarios which I REJECTED for various reasons...

Yes, you were so busy analyzing the posters mental state, that you didn't understand(and still don't) or could invision what he was asking.


I propose that regardless of your protestations, I stand by my response to HAVIC..

Who cares? I don't. You could stand in the middle of Broadway or 5th avenue during rush hour, I don't really care.


I propose we are well past "helping" the initial poster and have been for some time...

Duh!. How many brain cells died so you could arrive at this conclusion?


I propose any relevance to HAVICs inquiry ceased somewhere around post #4...no, make that precisely at post #4...in fact the response in post #2 is highly questionable...

You have yet to disprove it. You have posted nothing here that disproves what I have stated. You had plenty of opportunities, but you couldn't deliver.


I propose you wouldn't know a standing wave from a standing rib roast...some "exspurt"...

I think I describe it quite well in the post above, It shut you up. Unlike yourself I also describe the conditions that excite them. You did not, and you could not apply it to the poster inquiry You may know what a standing wave is, but the lights are out when it comes to you describing the conditions that makes them exist. That is obvious in all of your statements in this thread. So what does that make you, a smart dummy?


I propose your "expurtise" is limited to reading trade mags that have been left around by legit acousticians/installers...

I propose that I don't care what you think. Based on the information you have provided here, proposing maybe all you can do, critical thinking, problem solving and imagination are far beyond your reach.




ERGO:

I propose that, you sir, are an idiot...an immature, emotional, ego-centric, know-it-all idiot to boot...

jimHJJ(..and I am done with you...sorry ericl, there goes your "hit" count...)

This sounds like a man that has had a cork shoved in his mouth. I guess my last post muted your sorry butt to the point that all you have left is name calling. I propose that you are a cowardly debater who does not know when he is over his head.

[Resident Loser]

...I'm only starting to do what YOU have been doing all along...


I guess my last post muted your sorry butt to the point that all you have left is name calling. I propose that you are a cowardly debater who does not know when he is over his head.

I'm sure Paul Klipsch designed his Klipschorn to exite standing waves...

Go ahead, keep on going...you'll bury yourself a little deeper...

Hey kid's gather 'round this is gonna' be sooo cool!!!

jimHJJ(...make that f*ckin' idiot...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I'm only starting to do what YOU have been doing all along...

Uh huh......The only thing you have done so far is exibit just how irrelevant you are to this discussion.




I'm sure Paul Klipsch designed his Klipschorn to exite standing waves..

The klipschorn is designed with very specific instructions. They are to be pushed into corners tightly, and placed along the long walls of a room. The cabinet design of the speaker uses the corner walls as an extension of the bass horn. Because the baffle of the speaker(and it woofer driver) is aimed at between 30-45 degrees from the side and front walls, standing waves are completely diffused(broken up) as opposed to a subwoofer or speakers with flat baffles and square cabinets which leaves the woofer in very close proximity of the walls, and produces a very strong interaction with room surfaces. The woofer of the klipschorn fires through a folded horn design, so it loads the room much differently than a standard woofer firing directly into the room. Set a regular speaker close to a corner, and the results would be the exact opposite of the Klipschorn. It wasn't designed for corner placement. Since you are in the mood for a fight, there you go.
.


Go ahead, keep on going...you'll bury yourself a little deeper...

Hey kid's gather 'round this is gonna' be sooo cool!!!

jimHJJ(...make that f*ckin' idiot...)

An old not so smart phart trying to use words like "cool" just sounds like an old phart trying to use the word cool. Its not cool at all. A person that cannot communicate without using vulgar words is a person that lacks effective communication skills.

[Resident Loser]

...but for anyone who still cares...

http://www.keithyates.com/inwall2article.htm

"Indeed, if you were to try to install into a wall a conventional speaker whose response was tuned for freestanding placement, that is, well away from walls, you would hear a noticeable reinforcement (roughly 6 decibels) in the mid- and low-bass range. But no credible manufacturer of in-wall speakers uses a 4-pi (free space) tuning for a product destined for a 2-pi (hemispherical) environment. Further, all other things being equal, an in-wall speaker enjoys a decided advantage over non-in-walls precisely because one of the biggest variables in the performance of freestanding speakers—namely, the woofer's relationship to room boundaries-is replaced by a certainty that can be factored into the speaker's response in the design stage..."

http://www.atlantictechnology.com/manuals/System%2020.pdf

"If there are bass standing wave problems when in-wall speakers are utilized full range the only real options are to change the listening position or add a subwoofer that can be located in a “better bass place” in the room."

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/basement_home_theater.html

"Don't Hide Floorstanding or Bookshelf Speakers Inside Custom Cabinets

Speakers already have their own enclosures (cabinets), and are carefully engineered to perform at their best in a freestanding location, unencumbered by special custom cabinets, nooks, custom shelving, or concealed in elaborately constructed cubbyholes behind special grilles. This extra cabinetry will degrade and change the neutral transparent tonal balance that Axiom speakers are noted for. At the least, deep bass performance will be uneven or boomy and hollow-sounding, and the midrange and treble tonal balance may become noticeably nasal or muddy and congested."

http://www.itea.com/newsletters/2002-march/pdf/Page_5.pdf

The above link contains just some interesting references re: infinite baffles and baffle walls and Bafflettes...

http://www.cinemaequipmentsales.com/athx3.html

"A. Baffle Structure

1. Construction

With each site specific baffle drawing set supplied by the THX design office, the overall dimensions, materials specification, and installation directions must be closely followed. Also please note a minimum of 4'-3 " (1.3 meters) of available room is necessary behind the screen to construct the baffle.

2. Speaker Holes

a) Placement

The placement of the speaker holes in a THX baffle structure is very specific and is determined by the image sizes. A new baffle drawing must be generated by the THX design office if the image sizes change.

b) Size

The size of the speaker holes is determined by the equipment chosen from the THX approved equipment list."

So now argue with some others with regard to some of the topics I previously mentioned...

jimHJJ(...I'm sure you can figure out the references...)

[jneutron]

The klipschorn is designed with very specific instructions. They are to be pushed into corners tightly, and placed along the long walls of a room. The cabinet design of the speaker uses the corner walls as an extension of the bass horn. Because the baffle of the speaker(and it woofer driver) is aimed at between 30-45 degrees from the side and front walls, standing waves are completely diffused(broken up) as opposed to a subwoofer or speakers with flat baffles and square cabinets which leaves the woofer in very close proximity of the walls, and produces a very strong interaction with room surfaces. The woofer of the klipschorn fires through a folded horn design, so it loads the room much differently than a standard woofer firing directly into the room. Set a regular speaker close to a corner, and the results would be the exact opposite of the Klipschorn. It wasn't designed for corner placement.
You have an interesting understanding of standing waves, room resonance characteristics, acoustic impedance matching technology, and coupling parameters between room nodes and acoustic input..where are you getting this stuff?

Do you have any links to provide us to support some of this? Like how a horn loads the room, vs how the dihedral wall loads the horn in half, quarter, or eighth space? And why a horn generated wavefront can't excite room modes? You seem to be confusing the main firing direction with the focussing capability of horns which are limited by mouth size, such as the K's vs zero length horns like direct radiators with very small mouths..at the main room mode frequencies, both horns and directs do not have sufficient dimensions to project planar wavefronts, so your explanations are rather, umm, interesting..

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

...for HAVIC...You have couple of roads to take...

The simplest, since you have yet to purchase a projector/screen, would be to purchase a perforated screen. If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

If you really long for THX-lite and the infinite baffle concept AND yet want musical accuracy in addition to the crash and boom of your laser-totin' mechanical lizards, I would opt for one of the many in-wall units(LCRs) designed and optimized for that purpose plus an easily moved sub(yes Virginia, standing waves can still be a problem) for LFEs...Do keep in mind that while in-wall units are no longer simply a baflle with raw drivers and are closed, self-contained units, the rigidity of the wall in which they are to be placed is still quite important, as is the insulation contained therein to help deaden any structure-borne rattles, grunts or groans. There is even one manufacturer who produces what they call AcoustaCell wall inserts. These units seem to be specifically for their units, but there are probably others available...here's a link:

http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/spact6syform.html

In regard to simply popping any old thing into a wall, if you take a look at some of the links I provided along this long and bumpy road of a post, yes, an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...however it's structure is somewhat complicated and even in it's more simplified form, requires the use of MDF in lieu of wallboard and studs. In such an application the plans MUST be THX approved and conform stringently to their parameters including use of approved speakers, which tend to look like industrial vacuums painted in lampblack...which, since they are in a wall, is no biggie. There also seems to be very specific room size/screen size/speaker placement guidelines to afford the best(as per THX requirements) performance.

jimHJJ(...round and round she goes...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You have an interesting understanding of standing waves, room resonance characteristics, acoustic impedance matching technology, and coupling parameters between room nodes and acoustic input..where are you getting this stuff?

Do you have any links to provide us to support some of this? Like how a horn loads the room, vs how the dihedral wall loads the horn in half, quarter, or eighth space? And why a horn generated wavefront can't excite room modes? You seem to be confusing the main firing direction with the focussing capability of horns which are limited by mouth size, such as the K's vs zero length horns like direct radiators with very small mouths..at the main room mode frequencies, both horns and directs do not have sufficient dimensions to project planar wavefronts, so your explanations are rather, umm, interesting..

Cheers, John

John,
I am no expert on horn loaded speakers. I do own three heavily modified klipschorn speakers that I used to use in my mixing/screening room. John Allen designer of the HPS-4000 all horn commercial loudspeaker system, and expert on horn speakers gave me the explaination. Its been awhile since he explained this to me so my explaination probably is not clear. But I do remember him saying that is was both the way the angle that the klipschorn fired bass into the room, with the combination of the fact that the woofer fires into horn as opposed to the free air like typical speakers do. Now the answer probably is much more detailed than he explained(and it probably is) but that is what he gave me.

[jneutron]

John,
I am no expert on horn loaded speakers. I do own three heavily modified klipschorn speakers that I used to use in my mixing/screening room. John Allen designer of the HPS-4000 all horn commercial loudspeaker system, and expert on horn speakers gave me the explaination. Its been awhile since he explained this to me so my explaination probably is not clear. But I do remember him saying that is was both the way the angle that the klipschorn fired bass into the room, with the combination of the fact that the woofer fires into horn as opposed to the free air like typical speakers do. Now the answer probably is much more detailed than he explained(and it probably is) but that is what he gave me.The answer is far more detailed.

The reason a horn does what it does is it couples the energy of the source to that of the room much like a transformer. A small surface vibrating at 20 hz, for example, does not couple it's energy output very well to a room. By using a horn structure, the expanding energy with the compressible media (air) is allowed to slowly convert (as it were) to the impedance of the room.

A room corner, by it's nature, will do this for any transducer that is put there, for frequencies where the walls can be (seen) by the expanding energy. The K horns use this fact to allow the corner to act as part of that waveguide/transformer. So, both horns and direct radiators/ports/T lines/whatever...will see that enhancement when they are put into the corner...the K's just require it as part of their design.

A room will have resonances at specific multiples of the base frequency, in all 3 directions. Corner placement of any transducer will still excite those modes, regardless of the cabinet type.

Putting a speaker away from the walls does not prevent excitation of room modes, unless of course, placement is at a node. There is a complex relationship between where the transducer is within the space, the coupling efficiency to the space as a result of proximity (or lack thereof) to the boundaries..very complex.

For sound frequencies where the walls are part and parcel of the horn waveguide, there can still be coupling to room modes.

Your explanation regarding horns, room resonance, and such, was a curious mix of actual fact, and stuff that... while incorrect, can be useful for guidance in setting up systems..many times, what is taught is not correct, but has a more intuitive feel to it...giving people who don't have the math or physics skills the ability to do their job well, while not burdening them with the real information..and yes, the explanation I just gave is also a simplistic one, but arguably at the level that all here can understand.

I see the two of you arguing along these lines, and am getting very bored with it..

I miss my K horns..:(

Cheers, John

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The answer is far more detailed.

The reason a horn does what it does is it couples the energy of the source to that of the room much like a transformer. A small surface vibrating at 20 hz, for example, does not couple it's energy output very well to a room. By using a horn structure, the expanding energy with the compressible media (air) is allowed to slowly convert (as it were) to the impedance of the room.

A room corner, by it's nature, will do this for any transducer that is put there, for frequencies where the walls can be (seen) by the expanding energy. The K horns use this fact to allow the corner to act as part of that waveguide/transformer. So, both horns and direct radiators/ports/T lines/whatever...will see that enhancement when they are put into the corner...the K's just require it as part of their design.

A room will have resonances at specific multiples of the base frequency, in all 3 directions. Corner placement of any transducer will still excite those modes, regardless of the cabinet type.

Putting a speaker away from the walls does not prevent excitation of room modes, unless of course, placement is at a node. There is a complex relationship between where the transducer is within the space, the coupling efficiency to the space as a result of proximity (or lack thereof) to the boundaries..very complex.

For sound frequencies where the walls are part and parcel of the horn waveguide, there can still be coupling to room modes.

Your explanation regarding horns, room resonance, and such, was a curious mix of actual fact, and stuff that... while incorrect, can be useful for guidance in setting up systems..many times, what is taught is not correct, but has a more intuitive feel to it...giving people who don't have the math or physics skills the ability to do their job well, while not burdening them with the real information..and yes, the explanation I just gave is also a simplistic one, but arguably at the level that all here can understand.

I see the two of you arguing along these lines, and am getting very bored with it..

I miss my K horns..:(

Cheers, John

John,
I really appreciate your response. I don't work with full range horn loaded speakers, so my understanding of how they interact with room boundaries is very limited I must admit.

[jneutron]

John,
I really appreciate your response..No problem.


I don't work with full range horn loaded speakers, so my understanding of how they interact with room boundaries is very limited I must admit.
I hadn't posted on this thread before, as I was not sure what exactly the origional poster was asking.

When you posted that stuff on horns and room resonances and standing waves, it became clear to me that you were not speaking with an understanding of compressible media wave energy transport and the interactions with boundary conditions... Rather, your thinking appeared to be more from what has been told you, or from some simple observations..at the first level, that may be good enough, but at some point, that simplistic view will fall apart.

It can be rather confusing when the high level theory is attempted, so many shortcuts are necessary if one actually wants to get something done..That is why I don't try to do any of that math stuff, it is so confusing..;)

Personally, i rather enjoyed the 10 dB bass increase I got when I put my little sub behind the tv in the corner..it made Jurrasic park much more believable..even though they didn't have any lasers.

Cheers, John

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If I came to a restaurant looking for steak, and the best that they could give me was chicken, I wouldn't go back to that restaurant.


In regard to simply popping any old thing into a wall, if you take a look at some of the links I provided along this long and bumpy road of a post, yes, an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...however it's structure is somewhat complicated and even in it's more simplified form, requires the use of MDF in lieu of wallboard and studs. In such an application the plans MUST be THX approved and conform stringently to their parameters including use of approved speakers, which tend to look like industrial vacuums painted in lampblack...which, since they are in a wall, is no biggie. There also seems to be very specific room size/screen size/speaker placement guidelines to afford the best(as per THX requirements) performance.

First, nobody and no where in any post did anyone say just pop in any old speaker into the wall and walk away. That is a RL perspective only, not even the original poster believed it to be an easy task or he would not have said"I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own

Secondly, all of these comments regarding THX Bafflettes apply ONLY to THX commercial theaters. It does not apply at all to THX hometheater ROOM certification. The standards and materials that are certifiied for use in THX hometheater ROOMS(not equipment) are quite a bit different. One could build a hometheater from the ground up using THX criteria, and THX would never have to see it. A baffle wall for home THX does not have to have anti-vibration properties to accomodate 4 15 woofers, a mid, lower mid, and high frequency horn in a enclosure the size of two refrigerators stack on top of each other. .A home THX certified room can have non certifiied equipment. THX has conviently broken their program up into different units. Rooms, equipment, and software.

When one works in custom installation you get many strange and unusual requests for design features. Some request are possible visually, but not acoustically. So rather than just discouraging the client by telling them their vision is not possible, you work WITH them to get as close to their vision, but make it acoustically sound.

HAVIC's vision is to build a false wall and hide his speakers in them. There are several ways to do this, all with pretty predictable results. Everyone now understands that a baffle wall that doesn't vibrate or sing along with the speakers is a very envolved but not impossible task. We also know that installing his speakers in that wall will boost the low and mid bass. The poster knew that before he asked the question. If the poster decides it will cost too much money, and require too much construction, he still doesn't have to abandon his vision as RL instructs him to do(a defeatist perspective IMO)

A shadow box in combination with Acoustiblok foam wall which is simular to speakercraft's acousticell, except it is a whole wall rather than a that just a mounting system for a inwall speaker is another approach, a approach that I have been using exclusively for about two years now. This setup doesn't have a hard front wall(its all acoustical foam) and therefore does not boost or alter the frequency response of the speaker at all. The front of the speaker see's your room, and the rear and sides see a nearly anechoric environment. This setup requires little or no equalization and can be custom ordered to absorb all frequencies that you desire within the shadow box. Full range speakers require a deeper wall and more foam, speakers with limited bass(as what you would get when you use bass management and send deep bass to the sub) require significantly less. You get no wall vibration, no early or late arriving reflections, and no excitation of the rooms natural boundaries. YOu can mount the speakers on the outside edge of the screen, or you can mount them behind the screen. They will be hidden in the wall and out of sight. The best thing about this is you can build the setup as temporary, and if you like it, then you can hard mount it to the floor. You can mount the speakers high on the wall, or directly on the floor, or any place in between. I have used many different kinds of speakers in both a stand alone wall, and a wall that was an extension of the rooms front wall.


The simplest, since you have yet to purchase a projector/screen, would be to purchase a perforated screen. If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

Anyone who has worked ten seconds with a preforated screen knows that whatever reflections are behind the screen, without any kind of acoustical control, ends up in front of the screen out of time, and with a spread which creates diffusion on the other side. You will have reflection coming from the sides of the screen, under the screen, and right through it, all out of time with the direct output of the speaker. This will be great for the speakers frequency response at the ears. This may be the easiest to build, but creates more acoustical problems than just flush mounting his speakers. Not good advice PERIOD!.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

No problem.


I hadn't posted on this thread before, as I was not sure what exactly the origional poster was asking.

When you posted that stuff on horns and room resonances and standing waves, it became clear to me that you were not speaking with an understanding of compressible media wave energy transport and the interactions with boundary conditions... Rather, your thinking appeared to be more from what has been told you, or from some simple observations..at the first level, that may be good enough, but at some point, that simplistic view will fall apart.

It can be rather confusing when the high level theory is attempted, so many shortcuts are necessary if one actually wants to get something done..That is why I don't try to do any of that math stuff, it is so confusing..;)

Personally, i rather enjoyed the 10 dB bass increase I got when I put my little sub behind the tv in the corner..it made Jurrasic park much more believable..even though they didn't have any lasers.

Cheers, John

According to Floyd Toole and Tom Nousaine(spl) subwoofers belong in corners, but main speakers do not. Unless it was a mighty Klipschorn. I miss mine too!

[GMichael]

Isn't there an acoustically invisible material he could use to make a wall? The speakers could just hide behind it? Is this off the wall? (no pun intended)

[Resident Loser]

First, nobody and no where in any post did anyone say just pop in any old speaker into the wall and walk away.

Given your complete, unexpurgated and rather cursory response to HAVICs inquiry:


If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Simply do this, do that and "...you will get pretty good sound..."A veritable panacea; a cure-all and then some! Where are the caveats for design considerations, speaker suitability or the need for electronic and/or mechanical tweeking? Sorry, if I missed something...oh, no...actually I didn't.


Secondly, all of these comments regarding THX Bafflettes apply ONLY to THX commercial theaters.

Gee, where did I hear that before? Oh, yeah right here in post #73:


...an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...

I thought I made that abundantly clear, apparently you seem most comfortable pointing out the bleedin' obvious...However, it isn't a REQUIREMENT fot HT...now is it?


If the poster decides it will cost too much money, and require too much construction, he still doesn't have to abandon his vision as RL instructs him to do(a defeatist perspective IMO)

And here's whwere the remedial reading would play a part...the words used were:


Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

And in the "...feels like deja-vu all over again..." dept, from post #9(...number 9...number 9...number 9...):


After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

It's a pity that you see an alternate realist POV as defeatist...

As to the reast of your blather...it seems to be much more complex than your initial response would indicate...(see second quote above)

Then, of course, back to the bleedin' obvious:


Anyone who has worked ten seconds with a preforated screen knows that whatever reflections are behind the screen, without any kind of acoustical control, ends up in front of the screen out of time, and with a spread which creates diffusion on the other side. You will have reflection coming from the sides of the screen, under the screen, and right through it, all out of time with the direct output of the speaker. This will be great for the speakers frequency response at the ears. This may be the easiest to build, but creates more acoustical problems than just flush mounting his speakers. Not good advice PERIOD!.

As Dr. Watson oftimes said "No sh!t, Sherlock!"...HAVIC's got what he's got...my suggestion for screen and scrim "creates" nothing that isn't already there, which is why I said:


If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.

What part of THAT didn't you quite comprehend...you HAVE TO read and understand ALL the words, not just the one's that strike your fancy...

In pea soup, dense is good...in people not so much...

jimHJJ(...you should come with crackers...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Give it up loser, this post is cooked, your advice sucked, and this issue is over. You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen, and taking into consideration the moire effect, and image losses. Just any old preforated screen just don't cut it.

[Resident Loser]

You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen

Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?

Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.

jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?

Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.

jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)

Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.

[Resident Loser]

Isn't there an acoustically invisible material he could use to make a wall? The speakers could just hide behind it? Is this off the wall? (no pun intended)

As mentioned earlier, it's referred to as 'scrim' in the theatrical AND upholstery trade...A very fine mesh of a fabric(sort of gauze-y, but not quite), usually black, which, under the proper lighting conditions, hides all that is behind it...You may find some fixed to the underside of your chairs and sofas where it is used as a dust-block...

jimHJJ(...there are many solutions, some simpler than others...)

[Resident Loser]

...any first-year art student is acquainted with moire' patterns, ain't nothin' new or particularly specific to HT...actually nowadays has more to do with digital reproduction of half-tones...in fact anyone who has looked through fenceposts, played with window screens or has worn polarized glasses is familiar with the concept...the mechanics and geometry are what they are...the words are mine, as anyone who reads my postings with regularity can plainly see...that is, anyone with intelligence.

As I've previously stated, I've forgotten more, about more things, than the likes of you will ever know...

jimHJJ(...you are beyond your ken...and it's gonna' be sooo cool...)

[jneutron]

Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.
From what I have seen, when RL is qoting a website, he typically states that fact, or posts a link to the supporting verbage.

To say "I am sure this didn't just pop...." means you do not know for a fact one way or the other if this is direct or quote.

Why is it you are acting in this fashion? While I admit I have not been here much, I do not understand why it is a moderator is allowed to attack a poster in the manner you have shown over this entire thread.

Is there some history here that I am unaware of? Is this like that Star Trek episode with Loci??

This was actually one of the primary reasons I walked away from here..it is sad to see it has not changed.

Cheers, John

[HAVIC]

I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.


However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...

In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.

In the picture the following stands for the letters.

A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall

[E-Stat]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?
Thanks
Greg
Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

[GMichael]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

I think it's a great idea. If the false wall is made of that thin mesh-like material that sounds goes right through, won't this work? Are there problems with this?

[gonefishin]

I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.


However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...

In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.

In the picture the following stands for the letters.

A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall


You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.

With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.

This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.

good luck :)

dan

[GMichael]

You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.

With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.

This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.

good luck :)

dan

I like your ideas. You got my gears turning now.

[Resident Loser]

Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?

rw

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

[E-Stat]

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?
I've yet to, but there's always a first time. :)


Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant?
No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.

Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.

rw

[GMichael]

...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?

Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.

Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...

jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)

I've tried to look into it. But mostly there was a lot of pure anger in this thread. I wasn't sure who was right in what way. It was really very hard for me to come to a conclusion.

Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

[Resident Loser]

I've yet to, but there's always a first time. :)


No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.

Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.

rw

...as you make note of who exactly brought the matches...I thought they were contraband on airplanes these days...

BTW, I could care less about screens perforated or otherwise...I'm not the one who uttered the magical mystery word: moire'...

jimHJJ(...P.S. it's only tee-vee...)

[Resident Loser]

...there was a lot of pure anger in this thread...

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...


Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.

I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

[GMichael]

...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...



I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.

You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...

jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)

Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.

Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?

[Resident Loser]

Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.

Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?

...the finer gauge should have little or no real impact on the sound produced...heavier fabrics certainly will affect the treble, just how much will depend on the circumstances...maybe a little tweek on the tone control or EQ(if so equipped) might be the answer. Have someone talk through a piece of cheesecloth, then through a flannel shirt. That should give you some idea of the effect.

I'd opt for speakers I like in their naked state...again, that "baseline" or jumping-off point should be as neutral as possible IMO...some units do have built-in controls that will be useful for placement/proximity issues. Same with amps...do you really want speakers or an amp with a "hot" top end? How "hot" should it be? Should it be "hot" at all? I realize it offends some of the more "purist"/golden-eared among us, but that's what tone controls(and EQs) are for. Unless of course a big part of your involvement with the hobby is the constant search for the "grail" in any or all of it's manifestations.

Then of course, there are multi-channel processors...which are fairly pricey...at the outset, simply listening for and identifying faults would be my first order of business...always apply the K.I.S.S. principle...

jimHJJ(...Keep It Super Simple or for some folks Keep It Simple Stupid...)

[GMichael]

OK, I know that I am not supposed to assume, but if the speakers are already behind the wall before I run my YPAO, shouldn't it take any high end loss into it's function? So as long as it's not a huge loss of high end then it should come out more or less the same?

Thanks for the help.

[jneutron]

You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.

With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.

This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.

good luck :)

dan
Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?

Sigh...here I go again..


If ya take some spotlights, and a plc, you could give IMAX a run..but ya'd still need to get some horns and 12 kilowatts of power.

As to the false wall..don't make it solid. To do so can invoke a group delay in the bass. I explain.

Back in '79, I ran a system in a bar/resteraunt (sp?), during the disco heyday. The layout of the club was, it had a open area in the front where tables were removed,a half height wall with two walk through openings. I'd setup my system (4 K horns with 300watts times 4) on the dance side of the wall, mixer and tables on the other.

When I first started to mix, I found that there was a big delay between the program in the left headphone, and the bass beat I heard in the other ear. It ran about 100 milliseconds, big enough to cause double beat mixes..the bane of all DJ's.

In investigating this, I found that as I walked through the doorway, or stuck my head through the opening in the wall, the delay went away..it was caused by the propagation of the sound through the remaining wall opening, which suprisingly enough, was over 60% clear. Strange..

If you place subs on the other side of a hard half wall, you will find group delay of the bass. If you put the sub on your side, there will be group delay to the empty side, then again as it comes back..mud city.

Havic: Why cut the room size down so much?

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

OK, I know that I am not supposed to assume, but if the speakers are already behind the wall before I run my YPAO, shouldn't it take any high end loss into it's function? So as long as it's not a huge loss of high end then it should come out more or less the same?

Thanks for the help.

...if the "wall" is a sheer fabric one, there will probobly be little or no diff in the response seen by the mic and if there is, the Yammie processor should take it into account and adjust accordingly.

The only thing worth mentioning is the means by which the scrim material will be fashioned into the "wall". If suspended from the ceiling, piece of cake...if you plan on building a light framework of 1X2s or something like that, there is the remote risk that the measuring mic might "see" any obstruction(such as the individual support members) as a definciency in the loudspeaker's frequency response and unnecessarily overcompensate for it. This will only come into play IF the speakers are set back far enough behind the "wall" so that a support would actually block a line-of-sight(or in this case hearing) from the tweeter to the listening/measuring position. While the odds for this to happen are slim, the possibility is real and easily taken into account with a little pre-planning. Of course if the speaker's only obstruction is the fabric, the point is moot.

jimHJJ(...hope that helps...)

[GMichael]

...if the "wall" is a sheer fabric one, there will probobly be little or no diff in the response seen by the mic and if there is, the Yammie processor should take it into account and adjust accordingly.

The only thing worth mentioning is the means by which the scrim material will be fashioned into the "wall". If suspended from the ceiling, piece of cake...if you plan on building a light framework of 1X2s or something like that, there is the remote risk that the measuring mic might "see" any obstruction(such as the individual support members) as a definciency in the loudspeaker's frequency response and unnecessarily overcompensate for it. This will only come into play IF the speakers are set back far enough behind the "wall" so that a support would actually block a line-of-sight(or in this case hearing) from the tweeter to the listening/measuring position. While the odds for this to happen are slim, the possibility is real and easily taken into account with a little pre-planning. Of course if the speaker's only obstruction is the fabric, the point is moot.

jimHJJ(...hope that helps...)

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind durring my planning stages.

[Resident Loser]

Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?

...some sort of server glitch around your timeframe...I had the same reaction roughly the same time...did a send and went nowhere except for a "page expired" message...hit refresh a couple of times and simply waited it out...ah, technology...

jimHJJ(...Luddite that I am...)

P.S. Nice to see some more input and questions all 'round...

[gonefishin]

Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?

Sigh...here I go again..


If ya take some spotlights, and a plc, you could give IMAX a run..but ya'd still need to get some horns and 12 kilowatts of power.

As to the false wall..don't make it solid. To do so can invoke a group delay in the bass. I explain.

.

Havic: Why cut the room size down so much?

Cheers, John

I haate when the sserver destroys a long winded post :mad: UGH


I wasn't trying to imply that havic would come up with a system that rivals an Imax theater...but trying to describe audio situations where many of us have experienced scrim fabric. When I think of scrim cloth...I think of theatrical plays...and sets. But I think we've all seen this set up in Imax type theaters as well.

I'd agree that there's no good reson to make a solid wall to mount the tower speakers. A scim from ceiling to floor would serve quite nice. Setting up the projection screen in front of the screen (hehe).

ok...things are getting (and have been) WAY more difficult than they need to be...I'm outa this thread>>>

nice to see you visit here jneutron...


dan

[jneutron]

I wasn't trying to imply that havic would come up with a system that rivals an Imax theater...Well then, where's the fun?? Volume should be juuust below the level where the screen becomes bluurry...


nice to see you visit here jneutron...
danThanks...


I haate when the sserver destroys a long winded post :mad: UGH
Again, thanks..I haven't been called long winded in a while, refreshing that is...;)

Cheers, John