Headphone Amp Help Needed

[Jack in Wilmington]

I'm in the market for a headphone amp. I've read some articles lately in Stereophile on the Ray Samuels SR-71 and Channel Islands VHP-1. Both got good reviews ( what a surprize ) but both articles mentioned the Musical Fidelty X-Can as a sort of benchmark that the others were compared to. Since my local Hi-Fi store carries MF and Creek, I am torn between the X-Can and the Creek OBH-21SE. They would have to order either one for me, but I would have a 30 Day money back trial period. Does anybody have any experience with either of these? Thanks.

Oh just in case it matters, I will be using Sennheiser HD-590 and Shure E3c headphones.

[RGA]

Stereophile is a glorified Musical fidelity advertising agency - I have liked nothing from MF. I may not love SS amps to start with but MF isn't a particularly good sounding SS maker. I heard a modified $30.00 amp pulvarize a more than thousand dollar power amp from these guys..

The X- Can a benchmark? Please - Stereophile wirters don;t get out much in the world of headphones if this is what those inbreds are claiming this rubbish. It is overpriced and underperforming IMO. You would be better with the rega or the creek at half the price. I'd also recommend the Antique Sound labs MG Head DT as I found it much much better than X-Can. The ASL is easier to tube roll and upgrade and it's built better - it's even good enough to be used as a preamp (all you need is a quarter pin to RCA adapter which you can buy from Radioshack for $10.00.

I have the original version and the new one has a beefier external power supply and the price didn't go up much. The tube cage is easily removeable. http://www.divertech.com/aslmgheaddt.html

You can also go to heafi.org for specific info on headphone amps. Audio Note's US distributor recommended to me that the Berning MicroZOTL tube headphone amp blows away my ASL Head so it may be worth a serious consideration - I have not heard it yet but it is $680US so it may be pushing the limits and it is BUTT Ugly http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1000/microzotl.htm Then again ASL has just released this preamp not too long ago which may be interesting as well http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ASLMGH32&product_name=MG%20Head%2032%20Tube%20Headphone%20A mp%20/%20Preamp especially if you ever get the AKG 1000 which is a phenomenal heaphone that I would consider over even the 600s or 650s.

ASL is huge into headphone amps here are piles of other ones http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html#HEADPHONE

[dean_martin]

RGA - I know you've been exposed to Sugden and even owned one of their products. Have you had a chance to listen to the Sugden HeadMaster? I'm particularly interested in how it performs as a preamp. Any thing you can share would be appreciated.

[RGA]

Unfortunately my dealer only carries Sugden as a special order - they're big claim to fame is the A21a. I've heard nothing but good things about the headmaster which is unique in that it is not a tube amp and supposedly isn't a SS amp or digital amp either. you got me but it's supposed to be a terrific dual purpose unit.

It was just a bit too pricey for me clocking in at about $1250.00Cdn versus the $450.00 or so of the ASL at the time. The ASL was also a cheap way to try Single ended tube amplification.. I don't doubt that the Sugden would be better.

I am actually running my MG head right now. I am using the OTO tube amp as a control unit because all my sources go to the oto. Then I run a cable from the OTO's tape outs to the the MG head (this way I can listen to vinyl on my headphone amp).

People say tubes are noisy but I am effectively running my cd players through two tube amps, bioth single ended tube amps no less, before it gets to the Senns and it this is QUIETER far quieter than running the cans from my SS Marantz receiver. Noisey tubes my bottom.

It's a bit of a bonus that noth tube amps use the same output tubes. I have had the ASL and the Senns now for 5 years and I'm still on the stock tubes. :)

[Geoffcin]

I'm in the market for a headphone amp. I've read some articles lately in Stereophile on the Ray Samuels SR-71 and Channel Islands VHP-1. Both got good reviews ( what a surprize ) but both articles mentioned the Musical Fidelty X-Can as a sort of benchmark that the others were compared to. Since my local Hi-Fi store carries MF and Creek, I am torn between the X-Can and the Creek OBH-21SE. They would have to order either one for me, but I would have a 30 Day money back trial period. Does anybody have any experience with either of these? Thanks.

Oh just in case it matters, I will be using Sennheiser HD-590 and Shure E3c headphones.

I own MF gear and it's always performed much better than nearly anthing else I've heard. The X-Can is some wonderful mid-priced gear, often making higher priced gear shamed. Go with Musical Fidelity, you can't go wrong.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Thanks for your help guys. My budget is $400, that is why I'm between the MF and the Creek. The other suggestions look great, just not in the budget. I'm trying to find a shop that might carry one or both, so I can audition them.

RGA.
I like the looks of the ASL too and have found a dealer in Philadelphia that carries both ASL and Creek. That should be a good side by side comparision.

[StanleyMuso]

I have owned an MF amp now for about 10 months and I love it. As you will undoubtedly have noticed, there are many divergent personal opinions, and that's all they are. Some will love one maker, others will swear by another. Just go out and listen first, and buy the stuff your ears like. What you hear on these boards are good intentioned opinions, but we all hear differently.

Happy hunting.

[RGA]

Jack

First I always think if you're going to ask advice on subjective sound issues you have to kind of get a read on the people giving you the advice and if you hear things the way others hear them. Indeed, it's like picking out a film critic. If I agree with Roger Ebert 9/10 over say a 500 film sample size then chances are if he likes something I will too. Conversely if I agree with Roeper only 20% of the time then maybe I'm leary on trusting him.

Audio is like this as well and so too is musical preference. If I listen to classical then I may ask classical music lovers advice for my next cd over the guy who worhsips at the alter of Marilon Manson.

The other issue comes into play the headphones. I like the Senheiser 600 over the Grado's and beyerdynamics and I feel that the HD580 and HD 600 were better than the Stax Lambda Pro which was more expensive. So if I go out and ask for headphone amp advice I may want to seek out people who felt the same way I felt about the headphones rather than someone who heard them all and went with beyer or Stax or Grado.

I hope this makes some sense. When I originally listened the HD 600 I heard it on a $20,000.00 Tube headphone amp called the Orpheus.(well it was a headphone system). Obviously this is WAAAAY out of my price range and kinda insane for headphones.

So when I went shopping I heard the MF X-Can, the Rega EAR and the Creek OBH and a Grado wooden box. I liked the Creek the best the Grado the least. But again I'm listening to these based on the HD 600s. Who knows if I owned the Grado SR1 or is it RS1 I may have liked the Grado best or the X-Can best.

I think it's idiocy to be saying that you should definitely buy One of these over the others because as some mention you just don;t know for sure if you're going to like it. You may. For instance Geofcin and I probably will not hear much the same way. I have heard only four MF amps and disliked all of them. It should be noted that I have not heard the new V3 X-Can nor have I heard the last three generations of the ASL MG Head.

I also think your best bet well second best bet in that the best bet would be just listening to all on your headphones, is to go to head-fi because there are a number of supposedly excellent portable headphone amps that are relatively inexpensive and people have heard a wide variety of headphones and headphone amps.

[Geoffcin]

The other issue comes into play the headphones. I like the Senheiser 600 over the Grado's and beyerdynamics and I feel that the HD580 and HD 600 were better than the Stax Lambda Pro which was more expensive. So if I go out and ask for headphone amp advice I may want to seek out people who felt the same way I felt about the headphones rather than someone who heard them all and went with beyer or Stax or Grado.

I hope this makes some sense. When I originally listened the HD 600 I heard it on a $20,000.00 Tube headphone amp called the Orpheus.(well it was a headphone system). Obviously this is WAAAAY out of my price range and kinda insane for headphones.

So when I went shopping I heard the MF X-Can, the Rega EAR and the Creek OBH and a Grado wooden box. I liked the Creek the best the Grado the least. But again I'm listening to these based on the HD 600s. Who knows if I owned the Grado SR1 or is it RS1 I may have liked the Grado best or the X-Can best.

I think it's idiocy to be saying that you should definitely buy One of these over the others because as some mention you just don;t know for sure if you're going to like it. You may. For instance Geofcin and I probably will not hear much the same way. I have heard only four MF amps and disliked all of them. It should be noted that I have not heard the new V3 X-Can nor have I heard the last three generations of the ASL MG Head.

I also think your best bet is to go to head-fi because there are a number of supposedly excellent portable headphone amps that are relatively inexpensive.

I've found that MF gear both sounds great, and measures as such. The A3cr amp that I own to have an ever so slight upward tilt to it's response. While this is very slight, on the order of a 1/4 db or so, the amps ability to slew enormous current into ALL frequency's is probably why it's apparent. Ask me about the time I played Pink Floyd's "Time" and the alarms sounded amazing until I blew both 2.5amp tweeter fuses! There was NO distortion, but the amp was able to produce enough current to blow the tweeter fuses. That's works out to 275 watts per channel, and ALL of it above 5000hz. Not many amps can do that. Musical Fidelity's can.

Stereophile has rated the MF X-can v3 very highly, they also rated the Sennheiser 600's highly. I agree with both ratings. The Creek is also a quality unit, but it doesn't set the standard for reasonably priced headphone amps. The X-can does.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack

First I always think if you're going to ask advice on subjective sound issues you have to kind of get a read on the people giving you the advice and if you hear things the way others hear them. Indeed, it's like picking out a film critic. If I agree with Roger Ebert 9/10 over say a 500 film sample size then chances are if he likes something I will too. Conversely if I agree with Roeper only 20% of the time then maybe I'm leary on trusting him.

Audio is like this as well and so too is musical preference. If I listen to classical then I may ask classical music lovers advice for my next cd over the guy who worhsips at the alter of Marilon Manson.

The other issue comes into play the headphones. I like the Senheiser 600 over the Grado's and beyerdynamics and I feel that the HD580 and HD 600 were better than the Stax Lambda Pro which was more expensive. So if I go out and ask for headphone amp advice I may want to seek out people who felt the same way I felt about the headphones rather than someone who heard them all and went with beyer or Stax or Grado.

I hope this makes some sense. When I originally listened the HD 600 I heard it on a $20,000.00 Tube headphone amp called the Orpheus.(well it was a headphone system). Obviously this is WAAAAY out of my price range and kinda insane for headphones.

So when I went shopping I heard the MF X-Can, the Rega EAR and the Creek OBH and a Grado wooden box. I liked the Creek the best the Grado the least. But again I'm listening to these based on the HD 600s. Who knows if I owned the Grado SR1 or is it RS1 I may have liked the Grado best or the X-Can best.

I think it's idiocy to be saying that you should definitely buy One of these over the others because as some mention you just don;t know for sure if you're going to like it. You may. For instance Geofcin and I probably will not hear much the same way. I have heard only four MF amps and disliked all of them. It should be noted that I have not heard the new V3 X-Can nor have I heard the last three generations of the ASL MG Head.

I also think your best bet well second best bet in that the best bet would be just listening to all on your headphones, is to go to head-fi because there are a number of supposedly excellent portable headphone amps that are relatively inexpensive and people have heard a wide variety of headphones and headphone amps.

RGA
I agree with what you're saying. Like you I'm a big Sennheiser fan and I do plan on upgrading to the HD-600. I decided to do the amp thing first and then save for the headpones. I plan on doing the same thing when its time to upgrade my speakers.
I plan on auditioning my first headphone amp tomorrow.

Not to change the subject,but did you see the ads for the new VW Passet. The top of the line system is using Dynaudio speakers. Better than Nissan 350Z coming with Bose.

[Geoffcin]

RGA
I agree with what you're saying. Like you I'm a big Sennheiser fan and I do plan on upgrading to the HD-600. I decided to do the amp thing first and then save for the headpones. I plan on doing the same thing when its time to upgrade my speakers.
I plan on auditioning my first headphone amp tomorrow.

Not to change the subject,but did you see the ads for the new VW Passet. The top of the line system is using Dynaudio speakers. Better than Nissan 350Z coming with Bose.

But not the 600's. If you do get the 600, or 650 a headphone amp is a must, they simply won't play loud enough without one.

I wouldn't agree that just because the Passet is using dynaudio speakers that it will be better than the Bose system. I've heard a Z06 Corvette with the Bose system and it sounded pretty darn good.

[RGA]

And Geoffcin i'm not trying to come across argumentative here I'm trying to get at it as a form of preference. We had a shootout not long ago and one of the power amps was an MF and i think everyone preferred the $20.00 Class T amp from sonic Impact. The MF and an amp from Celeste were to me shockingly unresolved amplifiers. If you were there you may have heard the same or heard it differently. I listened to the A300 versus a decade old Sugden -- I would take the Sugden -- interestingly it was the owner of the Sugden who traded the amp in for the A300 so this is precisely my point that preference rules the day. The A300 was better able to drive the Paradigm 100's in terms of scale and oomph - the Sugden was smoother, more subtle and much better on smaller scale and vocals. Intimate versus pyrotechnics. The Sugden had deeper bass interestingly despite being a non high current amp with less than half the watts.

The X-Can I heard which were the cylinder shaped ones used a different tube -- they were not great - Saying that Stereophile likes them doesn't say much -- since they are no better at ecvaluating gear than most average Joe's -- I can judge a movie too all by myself without some failed journalist turned movie reviewer telling me what's good. And engineers don't have any better hearing.

And while it's great that an amp can blow up speakers (I guess) I don't evaluate quality amplification on how powerful it is. I could have purchased an MF or Creek -- This was 6 years ago and I didn't buy the Creek either because it didn't exactly impress but it was also cheaper. The Rega Ear was $150.00 Cdn and for that price was nice enough.

Truth betold the ASL MG head is not exactly the last word in headphone amps with a rather lighter weight bottom end (which has apparently been greatly improved over the years). What is supposed to be fantastic is the Sugden Headmaster but it was way out of my price range - and another tube unit in that price range but I forget the name of it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

But not the 600's. If you do get the 600, or 650 a headphone amp is a must, they simply won't play loud enough without one.

I wouldn't agree that just because the Passet is using dynaudio speakers that it will be better than the Bose system. I've heard a Z06 Corvette with the Bose system and it sounded pretty darn good.

I wouldn't buy a Passet just cause it had a great sounding stereo. I would much rather have the vette any day. I did test drive a Hyundai Tiberon today, while my Santa Fe was in for an oil change. It had their high end stereo in it which was a Kenwood. Sounded nice, but I only had the radio on. It did have a jack on it so that you could plug your I Pod into it and play thru the car speakers.

[Geoffcin]

.

Saying that Stereophile likes them doesn't say much -- since they are no better at ecvaluating gear than most average Joe's -- I can judge a movie too all by myself without some failed journalist turned movie reviewer telling me what's good. And engineers don't have any better hearing.

If it comes to beliveing Sam Tellig of Stereophile's review of MF gear or yours, well I hope you don't hold it against me that I choose Sam. Sam's been part of the audio scene for a couple of generations now, and he's seen & heard nearly all of what's ever been made. A guy like that who loves MF speaks a hell of a lot more volumes than the "average joe" to me.

The real fact is that Antony Michaelson is a certified audio genius. I've yet to hear a bad product from his company, and several of them, the KW series, and the Tri-Vista series are among the best of both the tubed & SS worlds. Even on his entry level A3 series, or X-Can he doesn't skimp on either tech, or quality.

[RGA]

RGA
I agree with what you're saying. Like you I'm a big Sennheiser fan and I do plan on upgrading to the HD-600. I decided to do the amp thing first and then save for the headpones. I plan on doing the same thing when its time to upgrade my speakers.
I plan on auditioning my first headphone amp tomorrow.

Not to change the subject,but did you see the ads for the new VW Passet. The top of the line system is using Dynaudio speakers. Better than Nissan 350Z coming with Bose.

Jack I don;t know if the 580 is still around but to me the 580 and 600 are the best cans Sennheiser makes (note I have not heard the 650 but it seems the 580 and 600 are still deemed in many circles to be better. I like the 580 over the replacement 590 so it's not terribly surprising that the 650 would still not be as good.

The 580 and 600 are virtually the same headphone and I don't think the press was very forthright about this information. The HD 600 is more of a cosmetic change and it's better built in that it uses better parts. The 580 is also a little tougher to drive but the sonic differences are very very slight and in retrospect so slight that if I had to do it all over again I would have saved the money and bought the 580. I think it's disengenuous of Sterophile to give the 600 a higher letter grade rating than the 580. The 600 if it's better is better by maybe 5% but it costs more than double the price???? :rolleyes:

The thing is at the time I was more conscious of Stereophile and magazines so I put stock into what they said about gear -- and I'm sorry to say but they tend to tout stuff that people will want to upgrade. Much of their agenda is to keep people on an endless cycle of upgrading (as it is with most magazines). Even when they strike a great product like the 580 and when the new model comes out they tout it to the hilt and no doubt get people trading their 580 up for the new 600 and now no doubt the 650.

I clued in when I purchased the greatly inferior Arcam Delta 290 over the Sugden A21a because Sugden was a no name and everyone raved about the Arcam. The Arcam was certainly good and I suppose I can't blame Stereophile - but I bought an inferior amp to what I actually heard because I didn't trust my own ears enough at that time. As it turned out I spoke with a Stereophile reviewer who later heard the A21a and said its the best amp he heard under 2k. Interestingly thiough when they finally gave a small write up to the Sugden A21a (the longest selling SS amp in history 1968-current) the review was rather reserved giving the impression it was a quaint little amp. It struck me as curious that what was written in the review and what was said outside of the magazine was quite a different tone. I thought why not say "this is the best amp I have ever heard under $2kUS" Why not say that.

This same writer doesn't care for Magnepan loudspeakers -- now Magnepan used to be a big hitter in the recommended componants listing of the magazine -- I don't ever read a review written of their speakers by this writer though.

I mean I'm a big Audio Note fan - and if I worked for a magazine they could give me the AN products for review -- but then I would be viewed as biased or I would be revieweing to the choir. In a not that old issue they gave Paradigm speakers for review to a Paradigm owner - so it's interesting how magazines are not exactly the most objective.

This goes the other way you don't want to necessarily send a product to a guy who you know does not like your products either. That is why I like more than one reviewer reviewing the product - get several people in to listen to a speaker and let each have their say...Hi-fi Choice almost gets it right but the summary still edits things out from one guy. "the panel liked susch and such and didn;t like this - but then the writer will say "but I disagree with the panel's assessment and felt that the uniut was good at doing whatever."

The cycle of gotta have it products and magazine filtering what you get on the page is suspect. Every new product is revolutionatry that is until the next issue. People read about the products they want to read about. So If I like B&W I will read the B&W review and pick out all the good things they say about it -- and if I dislike Paradigm I will read and try and find the negative lines about the product. We read what it is that will reaffirm are desire. Sooner or later we eventually will figure it out and end the cycle but it took me 12 years and some never do it.

This review from a disenfranchised magazine spec sheet measurement follower turned music lover is a great piece and well written. You'll always be best served by never buying a magainze. The fellow also mentions Musical Fidelity amopng other highly touted brands http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1

[Geoffcin]

I wouldn't buy a Passet just cause it had a great sounding stereo. I would much rather have the vette any day. I did test drive a Hyundai Tiberon today, while my Santa Fe was in for an oil change. It had their high end stereo in it which was a Kenwood. Sounded nice, but I only had the radio on. It did have a jack on it so that you could plug your I Pod into it and play thru the car speakers.

That Kenwood used to be a premium brand name. They tried to bring back the glory days with the Soverign line, but it failed.

I like the Ipod jack, that's a nice piece of forward looking tech. My daughter has a Ipod FM unit for her's, but there's got to be a loss of fidelity compared to a direct connection.

[Geoffcin]

Jack I don;t know if the 580 is still around but to me the 580 and 600 are the best cans Sennheiser makes (note I have not heard the 650 but it seems the 580 and 600 are still deemed in many circles to be better. I like the 580 over the replacement 590 so it's not terribly surprising that the 650 would still not be as good.
This review from a disenfranchised magazine spec sheet measurement follower turned music lover is a great piece and well written. You'll always be best served by never buying a magainze. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=345133&review=1

The 650 is basically a 600 that has been fitted with hand matched drivers. Your absurd logic that because you liked the 580 better than the 590, therefor the 650 must be worse than the 600 just doesn't wash. I don't know what "circles" you've been talking to, but Sennheiser considers the 650 to be the top-of-the-line, I tend to trust them in this respect.

At least we both agree that Sennheiser makes good cans. After listening to several of their models, I went with the 595, as the responce from the 600's and 650's was just a little to laid-back for my tastes. As you can see, I'm calling it my TASTE, as there's no way I would call the 600 or 650 inferior in any way, even though they are not exactly what I need. The fact of the matter is that the 595 is the BEST headphone that I've heard that doesn't need a headphone amp (they work great with one too). I didn't want to be shacked to a headphone amp, and the 595's work well with a portable CD player, Ipod, or even from my computer.

[RGA]

If it comes to beliveing Sam Tellig of Stereophile's review of MF gear or yours, well I hope you don't hold it against me that I choose Sam. Sam's been part of the audio scene for a couple of generations now, and he's seen & heard nearly all of what's ever been made. A guy like that who loves MF speaks a hell of a lot more volumes than the "average joe" to me.

The real fact is that Antony Michaelson is a certified audio genius. I've yet to hear a bad product from his company, and several of them, the KW series, and the Tri-Vista series are among the best of both the tubed & SS worlds. Even on his entry level A3 series, or X-Can he doesn't skimp on either tech, or quality.

Yes but IMO then you're making a mistake relying on what they say. It's not an issue of believing me over him or him over me - it's about believing in others to start with rather than judging for oneself. I used to believe in Stereophile precisely because they are self-annointed golden Ears -- I mistakingly thought they were "experts" and thus bought grossly inferior products largely off the backs of what they had to say and other magazines like UHF.

I was more of a UHF supporter because they were Canadian but time after time I heard products that they raved about that frankly unimpressed. Their reference system has some stuff that I wonder about.

The big difference is my livelyhood is not built on receiving money from MF and B&W or Audio Note or anyone else. The fact of the matter is that being around a long time and being right is not the same thing. Or even hearing more gear does not mean you're a better judge. Seeing 1500 movies or 15000 movies doesn't make you a better a judge of what is a good movie and what is not.

My dealer is a huge Audiophile and has carried just about everything over the last 30 years as well and has a massive collection of albums. Unlike Sam Tellig this guy spends 5 days a week with this stuff - goes to the shows and brings in virtually every thing going to see if its any good and or if he can sell it.

I'm not really knocking MF -- it's certainly not to my taste but at least in the paradigm audition I understand why people would go this route. Soundhounds is a rather smart dealership because if you notice the lines they carry they try and offer a rather large variety not just in names but in sonic recreation of music. It's similar to me with Bryston -
the gear is certainly a major step up over the receiver I had and it's very well built and it has a sound people really like etc etc etc. But like most SS big power amps I probably won't go back to it because to my ear it's been bested. I talked to an MF owner at Soundhounds and while he liked the AN gear better he said "but look at the price" He flet that with the MF he got way more features (and a bleeding remote - he was there to get a new one as his didn;t work) - less worry about tube issues - longer warranty with MF (like buying them -- a 300B is apparently costly) - and with the speakers he had he needed more beef. His comment was "one day." Well gee I've been and still am in the "one day" camp. You have to set a budget at some point and stay in it. And the other thing is that at least with his MF when the one day does come he has something that may fetch a reasonable sum on the second hand market.



I sometimes don't consider the cost issue --

[RGA]

The 650 is basically a 600 that has been fitted with hand matched drivers. Your absurd logic that because you liked the 580 better than the 590, therefor the 650 must be worse than the 600 just doesn't wash. I don't know what "circles" you've been talking to, but Sennheiser considers the 650 to be the top-of-the-line, I tend to trust them in this respect.

At least we both agree that Sennheiser makes good cans. After listening to several of their models, I went with the 595, as the responce from the 600's and 650's was just a little to laid-back for my tastes. As you can see, I'm calling it my TASTE, as there's no way I would call the 600 or 650 inferior in any way, even though they are not exactly what I need. The fact of the matter is that the 595 is the BEST headphone that I've heard that doesn't need a headphone amp (they work great with one too). I didn't want to be shacked to a headphone amp, and the 595's work well with a portable CD player, Ipod, or even from my computer.

What Sennheiser considers the top of the line is not really important because many companies view their most expensive product as the best product and that is foolish. I have never heard the 595 -- but the 590 came out to REPLACE the 580. The public heard the 590 and and most felt the less expensive 580 was a superior sounding headphone and the 580 ended up NOT being replaced but kept on selling and outselling the 590. I heard the 590 and it came off a little bright...not bad but not like the 580 and 600 either.

I am not saying that either of the 580 and 600 are the last words in cans and they have a disadvantage in that they NEED a headphone amp. I am currently looking for a Closed back can because if I'm out on the bus or at the library I would like a can that not everyone else can hear and that can be driven off of a portable. And one that isn't too pricey. My 14 year old Sony MDR 750s are falling apart so I need a replacement but I've tried some $50.00 cans and they're pretty horrible. I may have to see what Sony has to offer. The other big thing with headphones is comfort -- no matter how great they sound if they are uncomfortable the ball game is lost.

I did not say that the 650 IS worse than the 600 I said that is what others have claimed and that I would not necessarily be SURPRISED if indeed the 580 and 600 would be better since the 580 was replaced by the 590 and it turns out most people liked the 580 better and had Sennheiser backstep. Sennheiser changed the sound of the formula in the 590. If the 650 is really close to the 600 then it may be more like the 580 and 600 being ever so slightly improved. Or ever so slightly worsened. i don;t know until I hear them. the AKG 1000 flattens all the Senns and Grados I've heard to dust so far but I would want to listen to the AKG's for a longer period with some more of my music and on the same amp to be 100% sure but what I did hear reminded me of the best Stat cans but with considerable dynamics and bass (though not quite in the deep bass). But then it's double the price of the HD 600 so it should be better. The Grado was double the HD 600 and I felt it was not as good.

[Geoffcin]

What Sennheiser considers the top of the line is not really important because many companies view their most expensive product as the best product and that is foolish.

I don't consider it foolish. Perhaps you are unaware how manufacturing companies operate, but the 650 is their flagship headphone. To a company a like Sennheiser a "flagship" product is one that they are judged by. Being a German company, they are driven by perfection, and the 650 reflects that obsession in their matching the driver to less than 1db. The 650 could only sound worse if you are not into perfection, is that what you are arguing?



The big difference is my livelyhood is not built on receiving money from MF and B&W or Audio Note or anyone else. The fact of the matter is that being around a long time and being right is not the same thing. Or even hearing more gear does not mean you're a better judge. Seeing 1500 movies or 15000 movies doesn't make you a better a judge of what is a good movie and what is not.

Your not so subtle proposition that professional Audio reviewers are in some way "bribed" by the industry, or that their years of experience are to be discounted is both mean spirited, and outright wrong. On the contrary, in my limited exposure (so far) as part of the audio press, I've seen nothing but the highest professional behavior. The relationship between press & manufacturers would collapse if there was even the hint of scandle, and all the parties know this. The fact of the matter is that for all of the wanna-be reviewers in the world, there's only a handful of pro reviewers. They didn't get to be where they are because they don't know their stuff.

[RGA]

C'mon are you saying that you have never heard a lower model in a given speaker line sound better than the flagship model? You need to get out more and actually listen to lines of speakers because in the MAJORITY of cases from most companies that I have auditioned the flagship is not the best. The 602S3 sounds better to me than the 604, The 40V2 sounds better than the 100V2, same with Klisph and a pile of other companies. The 580 sounds better than the 590, the MDR 750 I bought sounded better than model up which had more bass due to a biigger diameter driver but sludged the midrange. The 750 was noted par excellence and the model up was dumped the next year.

If the 650 is identical in every single way (same exact ear cup (as this affects the sound of headphones) and the ONLY difference is matching closer then it will be no worse than the 600 and maybe better...probably will be since many companies don't view matching drivers or pairs of loudspeakers very closely. And in this respect I would like Senn more than I already do because their thinking on this is similar to my favorite speaker maker who in the speaker wold has been doing it for a long time. It is not the only similarity either as the Senns sonically remind me very much of my speakers in certain respects.

And please Sennheiser is not perfection.

And your argument of the stereo magazines make no sense. My point to you was that those supposed pro reviewers don't even agree on what is good. Each has their own totally different system at home just like anyone here.

Sorry but there IS a conflict of interest in the audio magazine world which doesn't mean that they are being bribed but it shifts who reviews what and what gets published. Woochifer had access to the Absolute Sound review that completely Rubbished the Wilson Watt and then conveniently due to worry over Wilson pulling advertising (because htere is ZERO other credible reason) they had another writer step in and give it a glowing review. I don;t have a problem with the second review IF the first one is ALSO printed. It was not so Joe buyer thinks that gee it must be perfect or the best.

What do you call that? We don't get the Stereophile writer who doesn't care for Magnepans having any kind of say in the review you get the guy who already loves them -- or with the paradigm 60V3 reviewer the guy who OWNS Paradigm writes it. There is no comment on what else he's heard. There is no list of experience.

[Geoffcin]

C'mon are you saying that you have never heard a lower model in a given speaker line sound better than the flagship model? You need to get out more and actually listen to lines of speakers because in the MAJORITY of cases from most companies that I have auditioned the flagship is not the best.

No matter how many holes I poke in your inane logic you never get the point. I won't make this mistake again.

[RGA]

Okay let's just take on point and give a go.

You are saying that magazines are more credible than me so you will buy based off what they say.

Now I know of one of the prominant Stereophile writers does not LIKE Magnepan loudspeakers or not enough that he would seriously consider owning any of them. And he's experienced.

You have poked no hoiles in logic. Where and which holes? You created a straw man saying that I said that the 650 was better than the 600 == I said no such thing. This is what was said to me on another forum -- I've never even heard the 650 so I am leaving fully open the possibility that YOU are CORRECT and that that other fellow was incorrect.

And it is clear you are hiding from the question - so it appears you have very limited experience listening to products as it is obvious that you believe in ALL cases from EVERY company that the more expensive speaker is better than the less expensive one. (at least until you say otherwise).

[Geoffcin]

http://www.psaudio.com/products/images/372_7.jpg

http://www.psaudio.com/products/gcha_headphone_amplifier_overview.asp