The Great Speaker decision Is NOW within reach. [Archive]

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Daddy3Legs

09-21-2005, 12:23 PM

No more deliberating and losing sleep about your speaker decision. All along the choice I made the other day was right there in front of me.

The Best Buy stores that are in the Chicago area all are selling Bose speakers. Although I waited for a few months before buying, my wait was worth it.

You see, Bose has been around for several years as the numbere one speaker available. It has been on the market for a few decades now, but has emerged as the top seller in the speaker and hokme theater markets. Now, it is the best. The sound is absolutely amazoing and thr deals you can gegt from the salesmen at Best Buy make you wonder about other inflated price companies like KeF and M&K for example.

I've already set the system up and want to invite others to explore the Bose name. They have an entire display at Best Buy and Circuit City too. The new home theater syetm Bose speakers are the ones I bought.

peace out dog........

GMichael

09-21-2005, 12:38 PM

Peter Duminy

09-21-2005, 12:54 PM

The main thing is, is that the Bose sound pleases you and your family. If you are happy with your purchase, then advice and technical information now becomes secondary. I would just enjoy the music to the fullest. :)

Jim Clark

09-21-2005, 02:05 PM

Yo, I've benn wating four and ivnitation to chech owt the Bose name. Freaking A man! No more nights of lost slep for me.

Thanks,
jc

Daddy3Legs

09-21-2005, 04:32 PM

Obviously i touched a nerve amongst you non believers. However, it is NOT beyond my understanding to reckognize those who are without the belief!!!!! it isnt without regret that I say that you really should check them out.

Dude, you ain't got nothing to lose --- exsept some time just enjoying the sound.

N. Abstentia

09-21-2005, 05:27 PM

woW I bet those Bose spekers do sound the awomest. What ampifrier R U bumping them with! : ;)

Jim Clark

09-21-2005, 06:20 PM

Daddy3Legs

09-21-2005, 06:40 PM

chill out Jack. My speling is off because this is a new PowerBook. The keyboard is weird as hell and you cannot edit with the greatest of ease.

anamorphic96

09-21-2005, 07:04 PM

BS you just can't spell. Besides the iGroove from Klipsch is much better sounding and cheaper than that POS. Hell the Pro Media 2.0 at 99.00 bucks spanks the Bose in sound quality.

Your Better Off Somwhere Else. Troll !!!

PAT.P

09-21-2005, 07:06 PM

Daddy3legs If you like the Bose enjoy them dont worry what some folks thinks of them .If their great for you ,thats the only thing that matters. Just trust your ears .

MrClean

09-21-2005, 08:30 PM

Yeah man - if you're happy, you got off cheap... ;)

The rest of us are jealous because as soon as we drop $10K on speaker cables, we're looking for the next "fix".

Florian

09-22-2005, 02:07 AM

If you are happy with it, then good for you. I have learned/still learning that not everyone wants perfection. They are cute, light and easy to carry around. I cant say that about my bloddy 6.25ft tall and 275lbs (with stands) speakers.

Also as many tried to explain to me we cannot argue about sound quality since everyone is looking for something else. Maybe the BOSE is a lot more better sounding then our gear ?!?

What do you like most about them?

-Flo

PS: Can we have a picture of the setup too?

GMichael

09-22-2005, 05:28 AM

I hope that you enjoy your Bose as much as I enjoy mine.

paul_pci

09-22-2005, 10:10 AM

Florian

09-22-2005, 10:14 AM

<center>Bose FAQ

</center> <center>version 1.0</center> <center>August 1995</center>

<center>compiled by Bert Laney</center> <center>(laney@coltrane.colorado.edu)</center> <center>from information and opinions</center> <center>provided by participants</center> <center>on the rec.audio.* newsgroups</center> Index
^^^^^
1.) Purpose of FAQ
2.) Other Speaker Brands
3.) Bose Marketing
4.) Bose Research
5.) Bose Innovations
6.) Bose Engineering and Design
7.) Bose Popularity
8.) Bose Repairs
9.) Newsgroup Opinions on Bose
10.) Magazines and Bose
11.) Bose and Litigation
12.) An Aside
13.) How to Listen to Bose
14.) How to Choose a Bose Dealer

1.) Purpose of FAQ

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

New-comers to the audio newsgroups often ask about Bose. Their interest is often inspired by a sale, in which Bose speakers are offered at a seemingly irresistible price, and the poster feels a strong urgency to buy before the sale ends. If this FAQ does nothing else, at least rest assured that Bose products go on sale frequently and, when this sale ends, there will be another soon. In fact, you can often receive the sale price after the sale ends just by asking. So take your time, listen carefully, and compare!

The usual naive request for information about Bose is often followed by a flame war, often to the original poster's great surprise. While Bose may be "The Most Respected Name in Audio" --- according to the Bose marketing department --- Bose gets little respect from most of the participants in the audio newsgroups. In fact, moderate to strong anti-Bose sentiments outnumber pro-Bose sentiments perhaps 20 to one on the audio newsgroups! However, there are always at least two staunch defenders of Bose. Perhaps because they face such overwhelming odds, the Bose defenders tend to phrase their arguments in brief and repetitive ways, which almost everyone else finds extremely irritating, especially after several months of exposure. The flavor of this debate has to be personally experienced to be truly appreciated. But, as a feeble attempt to duplicate it, here is the structure of a typical exchange:

NEWBIE: Does anyone have any opinions about Bose speakers?

FIVE RESPONSES: There are better speakers for the money including brands X, Y, and Z

BOSE DEFENDER: But Bose speakers offer superior design. They're the most popular speaker in the world, and for good reason.

TEN RESPONSES: Popularity does not equal quality. (Many long detailed rebuttals to the Bose defender. Tone tends to be slightly hostile since they've done this several times before. Some are very hostile --- "Bose sucks!!!")

BOSE DEFENDER: No. You're all wrong.

FIFTEEN RESPONSES: What?! (Many more long posts explaining again why they are right)

BOSE DEFENDER: But Bose is a large corporation with excellent customer service. Other smaller companies may fail, leaving you without service.

TWENTY RESPONSES: Good service for a poor quality product? So what? (Many more detailed responses about the problems they perceive with Bose, plus more "Bose sucks!!!" posts)

BOSE DEFENDER: Bose is a very popular speaker. More people buy Bose speakers than any other speaker, and Bose has very high customer satisfaction rates.

TWENTY FIVE RESPONSES: Agggh!! We just explained that quality does not equal popularity. Can't you read? Are you an IDIOT?

BOSE DEFENDER: No. I'm not the idiot, you're all idiots. This newsgroup is populated by a small clique of crazy "audiophile" types who spend hundreds of dollars for cable that doesn't even make a difference.

NEWBIE: (forgot about the newbie didn't you!) (in a weak voice) I want my mommy.

This goes on ad infinitum until everyone is heartily sick of it, and the debate fades. A few weeks later, someone asks about Bose again, and it starts all over. It should be noted that not every Bose supporter always debates as described above, any more than every Bose detractor always debates by saying "Bose sucks!"

This FAQ is a summary of information and opinions posted on the net in the continuing Bose debate. It is intended to inform the beginner about Bose products in particular and, to some extent, speakers in general. Furthermore, it is intended to reduce the unproductive Bose flame-wars in the future. This FAQ is a living document, which will be changed as more information and opinions appear. In fact, the compiler encourages and actively seeks further contributions from both Bose lovers and Bose haters, and even the Bose corporation. The compiler of this FAQ has not personally listened to Bose speakers in quite some time and, in that sense, has no strong personal opinions on the sound of Bose speakers. The compiler does feel, however, that many of the arguments that have been made in favor of Bose are weak, and this document reflects that judgement.

2.) Other Speaker Brands

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Suppose that, for some reason, you either decide not to purchase Bose speakers, or you wish to compare Bose with other speakers. What other speakers should you consider? A complete answer to this question is outside the scope of this FAQ --- consult the "Good Sound for Cheap FAQ." But as a short answer, some brands names worth considering include PSB, Paradigm, Theil, Mirage, Definitive Technology, B&W, Radio Shack LX5 (designed by Linaeum), Magnepan, RDL, KEF, NHT, Signet, Infinity, Spica, Energy, Quad, Martin-Logan, Celestion, Vandersteen, Acarian Alon, and dozens of others. This is not to say that everyone loves all of these brands --- some people love them, some people hate them, and you should listen for yourself --- but most people on the audio newsgroups would rate most of these brands above Bose. Some brands names generally considered worse than, equal to, or at least not consistently superior to Bose include Polk, Klipsch, Sony, Kenwood, KLH, Pioneer, Cerwin-Vega, Advent, DCM, and dozens of others. Of course, again, opinions vary (Klipsch, in particular, has some strong proponents). Given the long list of worse speakers on the market, its actually rather surprising that only Bose receives such criticism on the audio newsgroups. Boston Acoustics and AR have produced some excellent budget speakers in the past, as well as many mediocre speakers; I have heard nothing about the performance of recent models.

3.) Bose Marketing

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One of the issues used both for and against Bose is their marketing. In the loudspeaker arena, Bose has perhaps the largest and most effective marketing campaign of any manufacturer. What other speaker manufacturer runs television ads? The marketing budget is spent in several ways:

*Advertising. Part of the marketing budget is spent on advertising and obtaining positive reviews, so that consumers will know and feel favorable towards Bose products before they ever even enter a store. A recent survey in the Denver area showed that most people who purchased stereo equipment had already make up their minds about which brands to purchase well before they actually auditioned any equipment! Many personal anecdotes on the audio newsgroups support this conclusion. The fact that Bose speakers have such an excellent reputation in among the general public is partly a testament to their excellent marketing.

*Sales Incentives. In many cases, the store and the salesperson earn higher commissions from selling Bose speakers than from selling other equally priced speaker. Of course, in other cases, the store may have greater incentives to sell other speakers, but Bose is well above average among mass-market speakers.

*Store Support. The marketing budget also pays for large numbers of marketers who work with the individual stores, encouraging stores to stock and sell Bose products, and arranging in-store promotions and sales. If the experience of some on the audio newsgroups is to be believed, Bose even sends marketers to the stores to pose as salespeople, who steer customers towards Bose under this guise.

These sorts of modern marketing techniques are, for the most part, only to be expected from a large and savvy corporation. Of course, the company with the best marketing does not always offer the best products, although truly unappealing products will fail regardless of marketing.

4.) Bose Research

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One point often made in favor of Bose is their research. Indeed, Bose has a large and highly-trained scientific research staff. However, it seems that relatively little of this research filters down to their everyday speakers --- their basic speaker designs have remained largely the same for many years. This rather surprising conclusion is supported by comparisons with other industries. For example, Budweiser and MacDonalds also have large and highly-trained scientific research staffs, and yet continue to produce the same products year after year. In essence, most of the research is for purposes of hedging their bets and flexibility --- if the marketplace demands changes, the corporation will have the research results in hand to react quickly. In the case of Bose, the research budget is still quite small compared to the marketing budget. Furthermore, the research makes good PR, and in fact justifies one of their well known marketing slogans --- "Better Sound Through Research."

5.) Bose Innovations

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bose has the reputation among the general public as a leader in innovative speaker design. This is partly the result of their marketing campaign, but also simply because they are unusual --- its sometimes easy to confuse unusual with new or innovative. However, according to the historically knowledgeble on the newsgroups, most of the Bose's "innovations" were actually devised years ago and incorporated into textbooks and commercial speaker designs pre-dating Bose by years and even decades. In some cases, Bose's patents are small refinements of long-established techniques. Thus, according to many on the newsgroups, Bose's main contribution is popularizing their speaker designs through aggressive marketing.

6.) Bose Engineering and Design

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There has been much discussion among the technically minded about the engineering/design aspects of Bose. This discussion can get highly technical, and those without the appropriate background may often be left not knowing who to believe. Without getting too heavily into the technical details, this section attempts to summarize these debates.

One of the most popular Bose product lines is the AM series of satellite/woofers. About this product line, John Busenitz says:

"The problems with the Bose AM systems are many. The woofers are too small to reproduce low frequencies at decent levels. In fact, a review in a recent Stereo Review noted this, saying that the response rolled of at around 36 dB below mid-50 Hz. The small enclosure and high order response are indicative of bad transient response/excessive group delay, which is evidenced by a simple listening test. There is a big upper bass peak, and the bass is boomy and muddy, IMHO. Also the LP filter is too high, and thus the bass module is directional."

"The crossover must be high, since the 2.5" drivers in the cubes are much too small to reproduce upper bass to almost any degree of satisfaction, while they are too large for high frequencies, where they "beam" and become directional. And, incidentally, don't have close to a 20 kHz bandwidth."

To be fair, many of the same criticisms can be leveled at many or even most satellite-woofer systems. Such systems are popular right now because of their modest space requirements. Their theoretical basis is that low bass frequencies are not directional, so you can put the bass module anywhere in the room, even hide it, and it will still sound as if the bass is coming from the tiny satellite speakers. Unfortunately, as John says, in practice, most bass modules usually go too high in frequency, so that the resulting bass *is* directional. Then the bass will appear to come from a different location unless very carefully positioned relative to the satellites. Furthermore, as John says, the quality of the bass produced by the bass modules is often of questionable quality. As always, listen for yourself.

Now we turn to Bose's other speakers lines, especially their 701s/901s. In this line, everyone agrees that Bose speakers employ a highly unusual design. Depending on your point of view, you may say that this design is unusual because it is innovative and patented, or you may say that it is unusual because few others care to duplicate it. Regardless, there are few other speakers with similar designs, and certainly none with anything like the high profile of Bose speakers.

One aspect is the "direct/reflecting" design. In other words, they have numerous speaker elements, some angled forwards, and some angled backwards, and some angled to the side. In most speakers, there are only two or three speaker elements, all pointed straight forward. The Bose philosophy is to create a great deal of indirect sound --- sound that reflects off walls and furniture before it reaches the listener. Of course, all speakers inevitably create some degree of indirect sound, unless listened to in a specially treated non-reflective room, but Bose purposely creates a great deal more indirect sound. Some people feel that this strategy results in an unfocused diffuse sound, with unnaturally large stereo images, while others very much like this sound. You should listen for yourself.

To justify the direct/reflecting technique, Bose has claimed that, in real life, about 8/9 of sound reflects before reaching the listener, and only 1/9 reaches the listener directly. However, these numbers come from one set of measurements made in a concert hall, certainly an unusually reverberant environment. Furthermore, in practice, the recording picks up both the direct and reflected sounds, and adding more reflection at playback just adds synthetic reflections on top of real reflections. In fact, according to the scientists on the audio newsgroups, there are some well-established theories about the proper ratio of direct to reflected sound --- based on many years of research rather than one perhaps misleading measurement --- which theories Bose speakers intentionally violate. (If you really want to bring out the ambient reflected qualities of recorded sound, a better technique might be surround sound, where it possible to control the amounts of direct and indirect sounds. The proper use of surround sound could fill another entire FAQ.)

Before purchasing a Bose "direct/reflecting" speaker, especially one of their more expensive models, you may wish to compare them with other speakers which produce relatively large amounts of indirect sound -- this includes any planar speaker such as Magnepan, Quad, or Martin-Logan.

Another aspect to the Bose design is their use of multiple small speaker elements for reproducing bass. While most speakers use just one large high-quality expensive element for the bass frequencies, Bose speakers such as the 901s use many smaller lower-quality less-expensive speaker elements, wired together with complex circuitry. While this certainly produces bass, many people feel that the deep bass is attenuated, and that whatever bass there is contains large amounts of nonlinear distortion. Of course, others think the bass is deep and of high-quality. Whichever way your opinions run, it should be noted that there are well-established theories about the size of the driver versus its lower frequency limit --- the bigger the driver the lower the frequencies it can naturally reproduce --- which Bose violates, or at least tries to circumvent in a highly debatable fashion. More specifically, John Busenitz says:

"When judging low frequency response, it is not only the total surface area that is important, but the excursion capability of the drivers and their resonant frequency, which determines the low frequency cutoff. Smaller drivers almost always have far less excursion capability and higher resonances than larger drivers. That is why Bose is pretty much alone in using multiple small drivers."

7.) Bose Popularity

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps the most often repeated argument in favor of Bose is their popularity and commercial success. Bose is indeed one of the most popular speaker companies by any measure. Part of this is related to their effective marketing department. More importantly, Bose is indeed better sounding than many of its natural competitors. Despite their dominance in electronics, the Japanese mass-market companies have never managed to capture the full essence of speaker design and manufacture, despite many attempts. Even in Japan, US and other foreign speakers brands are surprisingly popular. Many first time buyers choose electronics by Sony, Pioneer, Techniques, Kenwood, etc., and simply assume that their speakers are of similar quality. Even worse, many people buy rack systems, in which the speaker is inevitably the weakest link, however large their size and however high the number of drivers and however impressive the frequency response curve printed on the plate on the front. In comparison to most Japanese mass-market speakers, Bose speakers are indeed a substantial improvement. In fact, since most appliance/T.V./stereo retailers (Circuit City, Best Buy, Sears, Wards, ...) mainly carry Japanese brands, Bose may be the best speaker available if one restricts oneself to such stores. Furthermore, even in the cases where a store carries better brands, their set-up is often not conducive to fine judgement calls. The speakers are placed cheek-to-jowl, and are all connected through central switcher of marginal quality, and on and on, as described below.

In other words, Bose's popularity can be ascribed to many other factors besides sound quality. In general, the short answer to the popularity argument is that popularity does NOT necessarily equate to quality --- just think of popular music such as "New Kids on the Block," popular fast-food restaurants, popular fashions from years gone by such as polyester leisure suits, and popular television programs such as "Full House." There are so many other factors which influence popularity besides quality that it is hardly a reliable indicator.

8.) Bose Repairs

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One point made in Bose's favor is the quality of their customer service. Indeed, Bose can offer excellent customer service and repairs. Of course, so can any number of other large manufacturers, such as Radio Shack, Infinity, and so forth. Small manufacturers can offer a personal touch often lacking from large manufacturers. However, their service is not necessarily as consistent, and they may not always survive in the competitive marketplace, in which case, of course, their customer service is no longer available. These are all part of the well-known trade-offs between large established companies and smaller companies.

It should also be pointed out that it is usually possible to repair speakers even if the company folds. Most speakers are constructed from standard parts which are readily available.

It should also be pointed out that, unless abused, speakers are fairly reliable. The most common source of damage to speakers is an under-powered amp, which can clip at high-volume levels, ruining the tweeters. Less commonly, a speaker may be damaged by too much sustained power, or a malfunctioning amp. However, aside from clipping, probably the most common source of speaker failure is the rotting of the foam surround, which occurs over 5-15 years. A surround is A flexible membrane encircling a speaker cone. Rotting can be avoided by using other materials, such as butyl rubber, instead of foam. However, many mass-market speakers, including Bose, employ foam surrounds, albeit with chemicals intended to inhibit rot.

9.) Newsgroup Opinions on Bose

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One issue brought up by certain Bose supporters is the nature of the participants in the audio newsgroups. In particular, one or two have claimed that everyone on the audio newsgroups is an "audiophile," while implying that this is a very bad thing. Beside casting aspersions on audiophiles, these assertions also ignore the fact that the audio newsgroups (exceping rec.audio.high-end) are generally *not* heavily populated by audiophiles and, indeed, are often quite hostile to audiophiles in certain regards. In fact, besides the Bose issue, debates between audiophiles and non-audiophiles are the most common and heated discussions on the audio newsgroups.

For those not familiar with this debate, a little background is in order. As their basic philosophy, "audiophiles" hold that personal listening must hold precedence over all other factors. In particular, they believe that careful extended listening can reveal important details which are missed by current measurements and blind testing procedures. Many non-audiophiles take exception to this. Indeed, there is a great body of evidence that the human hearing system is highly fallible, and easily influenced by things other than sound quality itself, so that only controlled rigorous blind tests yield generally useful results. Many non-audiophiles also say that today's measurement technology can give an extremely complete profile of sound quality. Finally, many non-audiophiles express incredulity at some of the expensive equipment touted in certain audiophile circles, especially tweaks such as exotic cables, CD coatings, vibration control devices, and so forth. This FAQ has made an effort to represent both points of view throughout the text, since both sides have merit. There are even many people who hold both views, to the extent they do not conflict.

Despite their vigorous disagreement on many other topics, Bose is a topic about which both factions agree --- both factions tend to be strongly skeptical of Bose. The engineers believe they have the measurements, the blind listening test results, and the theoretical and technical arguments to prove that Bose products have serious drawbacks, while audiophiles think that Bose speakers simply sound much worse than a large number of other less costly speakers.

10.) Magazines and Bose

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

New comers to the audio newsgroups may wonder why the opinions expressed here are so different from everything they've heard before. In particular, they may wonder how Bose could receive such positive reviews if their products are as poor as many people claim. The first point is that Bose has certainly received its fair share of negative reviews. Furthermore, many of the more ambitious magazines simply ignore Bose products. Finally, the US publications which regularly feature Bose may not always have the most proper or stringent standards. The purpose of this section is to describe the various major publications, to explain why their judgements may or may not be reliable, and to point the reader to major magazines other than those they currently rely on.

The five major US publications which review stereo equipment are Consumers Reports, Stereo Review, Audio, Stereophile, and The Absolute Sound. The first two concern mainly mass-market equipment, the last two concern mainly "audiophile" equipment, while Audio magazine attempts to cover both markets. In many ways, none of these publications is entirely satisfactory. A brief critique of each follows:

*Consumers Reports. They assess speakers using measurements and, to a lesser extent, blind listening tests. Their standards and testing procedures were designed many years ago, and are widely considered out-of-date and inadequate. In fact, after they negatively reviewed a Bose speaker, Bose sued Consumers Reports on the grounds that their testing procedures were faulty. While Bose lost the suit, it was on other grounds, and not necessarily because they failed to prove the faults in CR's testing procedures. (Interestingly, Bose speakers have tended to rate quite well in Consumers Reports ever since.) A common opinion on the audio newsgroups is that Consumers Reports' speaker ratings are actually *inverse* to quality. In other words, the better speakers rate lowest, and the worst speakers rate highest. You should listen for yourself and decide.

*Stereo Review. Stereo Review is widely considered an advertising format by those on the audio newsgroups. Annual subscriptions are available for very low prices, presumably subsidized by advertising revenues. As a matter of editorial policy, you will *never* see a bad review in Stereo Review. They claim that if they can't say anything good, its better to simply say nothing at all. However, they do give many people the impression that they will positively review almost any product from any advertiser. Assuming that they review products that they would not personally endorse, some people feel that they can intuit the reviewer's true feelings by reading between the lines, magnifying the gentlest criticisms to mean that the reviewer actually despises the piece in question. The joke is that a typical Stereo Review article concludes with "it has a handsome polished oak finish and, of all the speakers I have ever reviewed, this is certainly one of them." While non-judgemental people have their place, non-judgemental audio magazines have a more limited usefulness.

*Audio. At one time, Audio was not that much different than Stereo Review. However, in recent years they have made an effort to beef up their content, and to improve their staff quality. While they may not feature many negative reviews, their style gives many the impression that their reviewers still have certain standards.

*Stereophile. An "audiophile" magazine. Their reviews are usually based on unscientific listening tests done by one reviewer, although they occasionally conduct blind listening tests, and they always provide fairly good measurements for those technically minded enough to interpret them. Many on the audio newsgroups are put off by the paucity of scientific listening tests, and their espousal of sometimes outrageously expensive equipment ($2000 is sometimes cheap in this world) including various oddball "tweaks." At the very least, their reviews should be taken with a grain of salt, and the reader must take a good deal of effort to ensure that their tastes match those of the reviewers. Stereophile publishes a useful list of recommended components in the April and October issues. It is unlikely that a Bose product would ever be reviewed by Stereophile.

*The Absolute Sound. Another "audiophile" magazine. Provides an alternative to Stereophile, while taking the same general philosophy, except even more purist and (depending on your point of view) extreme. No measurements or blind testing. It is unlikely that a Bose product would ever be reviewed by TAS.

There are, of course, many smaller US publications as well as numerous foreign publications, especially British, which are beyond the scope of this FAQ.

11.) Bose and Litigation

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Like many large corporations, Bose has sometimes taken legal action to protect its reputation and patents. In some cases, this can be seen as the dark side to their marketing efforts --- not only do they disseminate positive information about Bose, by they also attack sources of negative information, as well as other speaker manufacturers. Besides suing Consumers Reports for their negative review, as mentioned in the last section, some other instances cited on the newsgroups include:

*Bose sued Theil to prevent them from naming their speakers with a .2, since Bose also named their speakers with a .2, and Bose felt that this might lead consumers to confuse Bose with Theil.

*Bose sued Speaker Builder magazine for publishing the specifications of a bandpass enclosure that Bose claimed infringed on their patents.

*Bose sued Cambridge Sound Works for their claim that they offered "Better Sound Than Bose For Half the Price." Bose also claimed that some of Cambridge's speakers resembled Bose speakers. (For the record, the newsgroup participants generally rate Cambridge ahead of Bose.)

*In the example that hits closest to home, after a student posted negative opinions about Bose on the internet, Bose wrote a letter of complaint and, as a result, the student was called before the Dean.

12.) An Aside

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At this point, the FAQ has summarized most of the points raised endlessly for and against Bose. While you can read about Bose till doomsday, one listen is worth a thousand words. The remainder of this FAQ will explain how to go about listening and deciding on the merits of Bose for yourself. This is generic advice which applies equally well to any speaker brand.

While the next two sections are generic, and do not address Bose specifically, they are included in this FAQ for the following reasons:

*They rebut certain claims made in support of Bose. In particular, these two sections rebut the claim that most Bose purchasers make carefully informed decisions --- it seems highly unlikely that most Bose purchasers, or most purchasers of any speaker brand, have followed the demo procedures and principles outlined below.

*Without these two sections, readers may run off to the local appliance/T.V./stereo shop, compare Bose to obviously inferior speakers, in conditions which do not allow for meaningful comparisons, and conclude that Bose is indeed the best speaker on the market for the money. While Bose may be a superior product, its important to base such conclusions on a sound foundation.

*These two sections are aimed especially at readers who have already listened to Bose, and feel that their personal experiences have already definitively proven Bose's superiority. Hopefully, these sections will indicate some ways that your experiences may have mislead you. In other words, even if you think you *know* that Bose speakers --- or any other speaker brand for that matter --- are the best, these two sections may give you pause. Hopefully, it will inspire a few of you to reconsider your opinions, even if you ultimately decide that you were right in the first place.

13.) How to Listen to Bose

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Listening is key, and this section will provide a few pointers on how to listen correctly and effectively.

To begin with, it helps to be aware of human psychology and how this can bias your perceptions. Some of these include:

*Expectations. If you expect Bose to sound good, it is likely to sound good. Visa versa, if you expect Bose to sound bad, it is likely to sound bad. Try to keep an open mind. Better yet, try to compare speakers without knowing which brands you are listening to. In this sense, the less you know about the speaker you're listening to, the better.

*Second Speaker Sounds Best. In a comparison of two items, people tend to prefer the second item. This is one of the bases of the Pepsi challenge --- present the Pepsi second. This effect is sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker.

*The Louder Speaker Sounds Best. In a comparison of two speakers, people to to prefer the louder one. Of course, this is not true if the loudness difference is large. However, small differences in loudness are not perceived as differences in loudness --- rather the louder speaker is perceived as better. This effect is sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker. This effect can be minimized by demoing speakers at a variety of different volumes --- fiddle with the volume control!

*The Speaker with more Bass and Treble Sounds Better. In a comparison of two speakers, people tend to prefer the one with more bass and treble. Again, like loudness, slight differences are not perceived as due to frequency response differences --- the increase in bass and treble is perceived as better. While increased bass and treble sound better in the short run, it can become extremely fatiguing in the long term. Many speaker manufacturers build a slight contour into their speakers to help them perform well in short casual demos, but the purchaser drawn in by this technique often lives to regret their decision. This effect is also sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker. Playing with the bass and treble controls, and varying the volume (perceived frequency balance changes with volume), can help overcome this effect. If you find that, for some reason, you actually prefer increased bass and treble, most receivers have a loudness switch, and bass and treble controls, which accomplish the same thing. However, if the bass and treble boosts are built into the speakers, it is nearly impossible to cancel them exactly using bass and treble controls if you later find them tiresome.

*Room placement. The sound of a speaker is greatly influenced by its location in the room, and its interactions with a room's acoustics. The sound is also influenced by listener position and listener height. For example, most speakers sound best if the tweeter is at the same height as the listener's ears, or slightly lower.

*Mood. In particular, it is very hard to judge when nervous or under pressure.

*Other factors. Color, size, styling, lighting, etc. can affect your judgements. I have even heard of dealers using small surround sound speakers --- used properly, listeners will not perceive the additional separate speakers, but will instead perceive the main speakers as better.

The only way to ensure a completely neutral assessment is a double-blind test, where neither the listener nor the conductor of the test knows which speaker is being heard. Unfortunately, a proper double-blind test is out the realm of possibility in most cases.

To summarize, while most dealers are honest, a few use human psychology to push specific speakers, the ones which earn them the most money, or perhaps speakers that the salesperson honestly prefers, although their tastes may vary from yours. Even when a dealer is not purposely trying to bias the customer towards a particular speaker, its possible and likely for non-sonic aspects to greatly influence judgements of sound quality. Being aware of possible bias factors, as listed above, can save you from making some common mistakes.

When auditioning speakers, its vital that you be familiar with the music. In other words, BRING YOUR OWN MUSIC. If you allow the dealer to choose the audition music, they may choose music which flatters the speakers in question. At the very least, if the dealer uses unfamiliar discs, you will have no idea what the music should sound like, and thus you will have no way to distinguish the sound quality of the disc from the sound quality of the speakers.

For myself, I try to bring one or two really good sounding CDs to test for the ultimate capabilities of the speakers --- but don't be surprised if CDs that sound good on your current speakers turn out to be mediocre on better speakers, and that CDs which sound mediocre on low quality speakers turn out to sound excellent on high quality speakers. In other words, if you've never heard your CDs on first-rate speakers, don't be surprised if your sonic judgements change as you hear them on more and more speakers. I also try to bring several CDs with known sonic flaws --- harsh treble, slight distortion on loud passages, tape hiss, maybe even some 78 transfers with surface noise ---- to see whether the speaker exposes those flaws, while still bringing out the better features of the music, so that overall sound is still enjoyable.

You might also want to bring a CD containing lots of low frequencies, such as pipe organ music, to test the low frequency behavior of the speaker. The biggest flaw with most speakers, especially small or less expensive speakers, is either a lack of low bass or a poor quality low bass, in that the bass has a one-note thumping quality, instead of a continuous range of well-defined bass frequencies. If you can't afford the cost or room for a speaker with true high-quality deep bass, you need to determine whether the bass response is satisfactory on the types of music you listen to most often.

Having established some common pitfalls, now let us describe the proper set-up for listening.

*Placement. The speakers should be placed well away from walls and other speakers. Any nearby object or surface can affect the sound quality of a speaker. This is especially critical in terms of bass response --- speakers near walls or, especially, in corners will have more bass, although the quality of the bass can be worse, since the bass is reinforced at some frequencies and canceled at others, resulting in a very uneven bass response. (Of course, when it comes to bass, some people prefer enormous quantities to quality, and I wish those people would stop driving by my house.)

*The best demos are relaxed, preferably in familiar surroundings, such as your own home.

*Leave plenty of time. First impression are often wrong. Any change in sound is often perceived as an improvement at first, and only extended listening will tell for sure if the change is for the better, the worse, or just different

*The speakers should be hooked up separately --- they should *not* be wired through a main switcher box. With more than two or three switches, most commercial switcher boxes are notoriously poor in sound quality, and will tend to make all speakers sound much worse than they should, and may obscure important differences between speakers. The store can use a *high-quality* switch between two or three speakers for the purposes of blind testing, but this is quite rare. If a store complains that its too much trouble to wire the speakers individually, there are other stores which do. I've seen stores tediously and methodically disconnect and remove one set of speakers, and connect a second set of speakers, so that the two speakers are compared using the exact same system and in the exact same location.

14.) How to Choose a Bose Dealer

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Besides offering demo conditions such as those listed above, here are some other things to look for in a store and its salespeople.

* The staff should NOT employ high-pressure sales tactics. Some examples of high-pressure tactics include: sales which end tomorrow; special manager approved discounts which are only good if you purchase right away; excessive badmouthing of certain products; excessive praise of certain products; completely controlling the volume, music, and other conditions in the listening demo; staff is too solicitous, so that the salesman never stops talking or never leaves you alone; the list goes on and on.

* The staff person should be able to explain a speaker's design philosophy briefly and in easy-to-understand terms, but they should not use design or features as the main selling point --- after size and price constraints have been established, a speaker's sound quality should be its main selling point. There are many ways to successfully design a good loudspeaker, each with its advantages and disadvantages, and there is no one correct or superior design. Many people will buy a speaker based solely on which one has the best "story" about its design and features.

* The store should carry a wide price range. Listening to more expensive speakers helps you to understand what high-quality speakers should sound like, so that you know what to look for even among less expensive speakers.

* The store should use better quality electronics in their demos. This includes brand names such as Adcom, B&K, Rotel, and harman-kardon. Even if you choose to use a budget receiver in your own system, better electronics will reveal the ultimate capabilities of the speakers, in case you decide to upgrade someday. In any event, you do not wish to penalize a speaker for simply accurately reporting the poor quality of the receiver or CD player used in the demo. Of course, on the other hand, you do not want to choose a speaker which accentuates or exaggerates problems with other components. Different speakers may sound better with different receivers, and the store should be competent enough to choose a good match. If you're seriously considering purchasing a speaker, you should try to audition it with the rest of your system, and in your room, to make sure they're compatible.

In most cases, these conditions are found only at dedicated stereo stores. While one might expect to pay extra for the extra service, these stores generally carry speakers starting for around $150-200, or only slightly higher than cheapest speakers in mass-market stores. Of course, they may also carry speakers well into the $1000s. For best service, visit the store at off-peak hours, when the sales staff is relaxed and can afford to spend some time explaining and demoing. The mass-market applicance/T.V./stereo stores usually do not have adequate demo facilities and, perhaps as a direct result, tend not to carry the better speaker brands, since differences in sound are rarely audible under the circumstances. Rather than using sound quality, appliance/T.V./stereo stores tend to sell speakers in the same way as appliances --- they stress brand name, price, sales and promotions, advertising, salesperson recommendations (their salespeople often lack a deep knowledge of stereo, or are not candid about their opinions), and features.

Unfortunately, lacking adequate local dealers, many people will be unable to demo speakers under the proper conditions. In this case, you may have to rely largely on recommendations. At the very least, hopefully these last two sections have given you some basis for assessing the credibility of any recommendations. If you must buy your speakers without a proper demo, make sure to get a money back guarantee.

thepogue

09-22-2005, 10:39 AM

:rolleyes: :) :D

you knut!!! Pogue

Yo, I've benn wating four and ivnitation to chech owt the Bose name. Freaking A man! No more nights of lost slep for me.

Thanks,
jc

Daddy3Legs

09-22-2005, 12:14 PM

You guys need to stop being so nice because it's ultimately dishonest. We all (or most of us) know that Bose is a sham, in that their "unknown" specification have serious deficiencies and that there is absolutely no justification for their cost. If the guy is happy, then he's happy, but that doesn't make Bose categorically a good speaker because it is not. The two are not mutually exclusive. Being nice about it doesn't help lurkers make sound decisions aobut their speaker purchases.

Who is going to read all that crap?

As for the sarcasm and the silly put downs of a product that people spend their money on, some obviously are being snobs about the issue.

It's as if some of you are the "authority" or "the voice of reason", and if some mere mortal or feeble minded shlep dare buy something oither than what you own or recommend, they need a social worker for a month of counselling.

The format and idea of a place to come and chew the fat and learn from others is great. But if somebody comes in here and uses something that doesn't meet your approval, then that person is shunned or ridiculed.

I can't believe that the snobbery that is usually associated with A/V gear also runs rampant on a message board.

Florian

09-22-2005, 12:33 PM

It would be of a benefit for you if you read it. It is 100% not a putdown or a critique. But you read the information first, before putting it down as crap.

-Flo

GMichael

09-22-2005, 12:40 PM

And...... we're off.

Bose lover is come up on the outside..
Bose hater pushes him aside and laughs..
Impartial spectator is trying to follow...
'Lover pulls ahead..
'Hater runs him over..
Dust is everywhere..
I can't see a thing..
Wait! I see now..
'Lover is face first in the dirt..
'Hater is driving his head into the turnstile..
Impartial spectator is left standing there wondering what to do..
Who's this coming now?
It's.. it's.. Magnepan and A.N. flying past with their tongues sticking out...
And the winner is....

Florian

09-22-2005, 12:45 PM

And the winner is Apogee Acoustics rising from the grave with the new supersound booster :p

By the way, the article is quite good.

Florian

09-22-2005, 12:49 PM

Well to be honest, it is impossible for a BOSE to turn out anything but funny. :p

-Flo

GMichael

09-22-2005, 12:50 PM

By the way, the article is quite good.

I read it. I agree. It covered everything very well. But a Bose lover would never get past the begining.

By the way, I do really have a Bose system in my car, and I really do like it. But I can also tell that it's not the ultimate in sound. It's good. But that's it. My Infinity's sound much better, and they are only "good."

thepogue

09-22-2005, 12:51 PM

why Paradigm of course!!! ;)

lmao....."no highs....no lows....it MUST be Bose"

sorry couldn't help meself...lmao

great thread

Pogue

And...... we're off.

Bose lover is come up on the outside..
Bose hater pushes him aside and laughs..
Impartial spectator is trying to follow...
'Lover pulls ahead..
'Hater runs him over..
Dust is everywhere..
I can't see a thing..
Wait! I see now..
'Lover is face first in the dirt..
'Hater is driving his head into the turnstile..
Impartial spectator is left standing there wondering what to do..
Who's this coming now?
It's.. it's.. Magnepan and A.N. flying past with their tongues sticking out...
And the winner is....

Florian

09-22-2005, 12:51 PM

Do not, under any circumstances try to read. It could result in knowledge, which in the wrong hands is dangerous. I am rolling on the floor laughing. That is so funny :D

Jim Clark

09-22-2005, 12:54 PM

As for the sarcasm and the silly put downs of a product that people spend their money on, some obviously are being snobs about the issue.

It's as if some of you are the "authority" or "the voice of reason", and if some mere mortal or feeble minded shlep dare buy something oither than what you own or recommend, they need a social worker for a month of counselling.

Excuse me - aren't you the same yakoff who proclaimed your speakers as "numbere (sic) one" and "the best"? Look up ironic and if you need more, try moronic.

Who is going to read all that crap?

Do not, under any circumstances try to read. It could result in knowledge, which in the wrong hands is dangerous.

The format and idea of a place to come and chew the fat and learn from others is great. But if somebody comes in here and uses something that doesn't meet your approval, then that person is shunned or ridiculed.

I can't believe that the snobbery that is usually associated with A/V gear also runs rampant on a message board.

I can't believe that anyone with such a juvenile moniker and crappy spelling of overly indulgent opinions expects to be taken seriously.

Regards,
jc

Florian

09-22-2005, 12:56 PM

Do not, under any circumstances try to read. It could result in knowledge, which in the wrong hands is dangerous. I am rolling on the floor laughing. That is so funny :D

kenk

09-22-2005, 03:51 PM

I've already set the system up and want to invite others to explore the Bose name. They have an entire display at Best Buy and Circuit City too. The new home theater syetm Bose speakers are the ones I bought.

peace out dog........

I did explore Bose fifeen years ago(i think), we tried out two pairs, the 301 (i think) and the very first acoustimass spakers ($600 back then). Well the acoustimass woofers caught on fire when we cranked up the volume (real story) and the 301 just sounded bad in my room. Bottom line, no more Bose after that.

SlumpBuster

09-22-2005, 07:21 PM

By the way, I do really have a Bose system in my car, and I really do like it. But I can also tell that it's not the ultimate in sound. It's good. But that's it. My Infinity's sound much better, and they are only "good."

You're right. I had an Audi A6 with the Bose/Navigation system. It was very nice. Certainly the best factory system I've ever had. But, I know some car company recently started putting Mark Levinson products in, and I think Chyrsler is using Boston Acoustics. I haven't heard those. But the Bose car systems do seem to be a different animal from their home audio counterparts.

topspeed

09-22-2005, 10:12 PM

You're right. I had an Audi A6 with the Bose/Navigation system. It was very nice. Certainly the best factory system I've ever had. But, I know some car company recently started putting Mark Levinson products in, and I think Chyrsler is using Boston Acoustics. I haven't heard those. But the Bose car systems do seem to be a different animal from their home audio counterparts.
Our cars are whole different animals and come with an entirely different set of expectations. Wind roar, tire noise, and exhaust thrum combined with hellish acoustics all conspire to make the interior of a car one of the most difficult places to achieve good sound. My wife has a Bose system in her SUV and it sounds pretty good...for an OEM system. It has decent, if boomy, bass but still lacks clarity in the upper mids and treble. You know, typical Bose. Honestly, the Infinity Gold system I had in my Jeep GC back in the '90's killed it. That said, both are still worlds better than the travesty of a stereo BMW somehow deemed worthy for my current car. It is, in a word, sh!t.

Lexus has offered ML systems in their cars from the brand's inception in the early '90's. I've heard it in the LS430, SC430, and the latest GS430 (I have a lot of friends into Lexus). It's quite good, although every one seems tipped a bit hot to me. Odd, considering Lexus' rep for coffin quiet interiors. Volvo offers Dynaudio systems which are superb and Aston Martin now has Linn systems for a mere $4750(!) upgrade. To date, the best OEM car system I've heard is the ESL/Panny DVD-A system in the Acura TL. To me, it has the best balance combined with the most cohesive presentation. To this day I can't understand why they have the ESL in the TL yet put a Bose in the flagship RL :confused:.

One last thing, while I despise DSP in home audio, it is almost mandatory to correctly deal with the wacko acoustics inside a car.

MrClean

09-23-2005, 10:08 PM

One last thing, while I despise DSP in home audio, it is almost mandatory to correctly deal with the wacko acoustics inside a car.

You need to hear the new NHT Xd system, with an open mind, before you categorically dismiss prudent use of DSP. These are amazing speakers...

J

Florian

09-24-2005, 08:41 AM

Digital room correction can improve the sound in a home audio system. But DSP can not make a bad speaker sound good. Some speakers are very difficult to work with and correct dips, but you can squeeze some good sound out of them. I had a Digital Room Correction device myself from Tact Audio.

-Flo

MrClean

09-24-2005, 09:12 AM

Hi Flo,

DSP can probably improve a bad design, but it can really optimize an already excellent design when used with discretion. There are some things that just cannot be achieved with conventional means.

However, DSP is just one component of the Xds. Probably most importantly is the digital filtering, which eliminates the conventional crossover network. NHT was able to choose drivers with extremely low distortion over very specific portions of the audio spectrum, because with steep digital "brick wall" filtering, they can control precisely what goes to each driver. And each driver gets its own 150 watt amp (except for the sub - each of its drivers get 250). They have been able to virtually eliminate all lobing, producing a huge, stable and precise stereo image that does not collapse "off axis".

In the future, NHT will make available user-accessible room correction (the microphone input is already on the back of the processor) wherein each owner can optimize the output for their specific room. They already sound phenomenal, but this should make them even better.

If you can get a chance, I encourage you to listen to the NHTs. They are in very short supply right now, so finding a pair to hear may be difficult, but definitely worth the effort.

http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=381

J

Florian

09-24-2005, 09:40 AM

MrClean

09-24-2005, 10:34 AM

Well TactAudio supplys equipment which can do the same also. What i might give a try is this

1. Tact CD-Drive with Digital AES-B out
2. Tact Digital Preamp and Room Correction
3. Tact Digitial Active Crossover
4. 6x Tact Digital Stereo AMPS

So the signal stays digital all the way to the speaker with no x-over or AD conversion at all. I will test it on the DIVA sinc that speaker can show the weakness and strength of all equipment. The NHT's look interesting, but i am a die hard ribbon and dipole freak with a love for size so i am sure i would not consider them in my main system. But they look very interesting and i will try to give them a listen.

My next step is i a digital active crossover on the DIVAS with a powerfull tube on the mid high ribbons and my big Sphinx SS amp on the bass. For 5500$ they are quite affordable too. Might be interesting to replace the VMPS speakers with, maybe they have a dealer for them in germany.

-Flo

Sounds like you're on to something there... As long as you can tailor the signal going to each driver to optimize its potential and avoid all the crap it would have to go through in an ordinary crossover, you should hear dramatic results.

I actually sold my dipoles (Genesis V) and a Pass Labs amp to get into this setup, and I don't miss them a bit. Granted, the reason I did so was because they sounded pretty bad in the new house, but regardless, I'm glad I did it.

J

Florian

09-24-2005, 10:32 PM

MrClean

09-24-2005, 11:12 PM

Yeah it is no problem for me to drive each driver actively, Apogee designed the Dax3 and Dax3 for that many years ago. Or i can use the new digital active crossovers in the Lyngdorf Audio and TactAudio's.

You need a large room for the small Genesis V with plenty of power biamping them which can be a hassle. Which version of the V did you have?

-Flo

I wasn't aware there were different versions of the V. Not the 500/501, but the one with four woofers per side, the domed midrange, and the outboard bass amp. I had plenty of power going into them (near 900 watts/side), so that was not the problem.

The room is only about 13' wide, with 8' ceilings. On top of that, I had to combine the stereo/HT setup, so there was an armoire that housed the TV and other stuff right smack between the Vs, a huge no-no for dipoles. Not to say that the Xds only sound good in small rooms, as I auditioned them in a room about 4-5X the size of mine and they sounded BIG.

J

Florian

09-24-2005, 11:36 PM

thekid

09-25-2005, 03:38 AM

Flo- I think it is the troll that is on the floor laughing. Everything in his original post was designed to get a reaction. (Bose-Best Buy salespeople-spelling errors)
Not as a defense of Bose but your statement " In some cases, Bose's patents are small refinements of long-established techniques" is intended to be a put down of Bose but really shows an ignorance of the history of technology. Most inventions are small refinements of long established techniques- they just apply the technology in a different way. Computers can actually trace their beginnings back to weaving looms! If as you say a company wants to build a marketing campaign around their "patented" technology they have a right to do so. In fact many companies do, but keep in mind it is not the company that determines when/if something gets a new patent-It is the Patent Office.The consumer is the ultimate judge of technology in the market place and while Ad campaigns can confuse the issue, in the long run they can not make up for a products shortcomings.

Florian

09-25-2005, 03:51 AM

Don't worry i don't like BOSE one bit :p
I was trying to remain neutral and instead of bashing the living hell out of it, i was trying to show a different side. I am currently in the process of learning and accepting that some people have different opinions ;)

-Flo

PS: Where is daddy anyways?

PPS: I was actually a hated customer at the Katey Mills Mall in Houston Texas (BOSE store )because i always i asked questions after the show that made BOSE look like the crap it is!

thekid

09-25-2005, 04:22 AM

"I am currently in the process of learning and accepting that some people have different opinions"

IMO that last quote is what more people should take to heart. In my short time in this forum I have realized that it almost all comes down to personal preference. Too often in todays world personal opinion is portrayed as facts and that is where we get in to trouble.

Brand loyalty is what the manufacturers covet but the reality is we consumers should may be using it as a starting point and not a starting and ending point. I own Bose and I can not defend the statements that started this thread. I like what I have and hopefully when time/budget and other factors allow I will be able to get a chance to look at and buy other equipment.Everyone just needs to keep an open mind about their equipment and the equipment of others.

Florian

09-25-2005, 04:56 AM

Thats true, and one of the reasons why i simply do not want any other speaker that i own right now, exept the 108000$ Perigee Definitve. I do not know of any other speaker that i like more, and test or no tests (even though the test always ends up extremely good) you need to decide it for yourself.

-Flo

MrClean

09-25-2005, 07:44 AM

The room was too small for the Gens. Why did you not drive them actively?
You could have bought a Tact Audio RCS 2.2x and or the big 10 channel monster and drive each driver actively with a complete room correction :p There were different versions of the V which differentiated in driver material and amps. The midrange drivers are still avaliable through Genesis since they didnt employ the Emits or Emims from the early Infinity days which Arnie Noodle uses on the IRS series and later used in the early.

-Flo

PS: How much did you let them go for?

To all other members you can all drive your speakers actively. Simply ditch the internal x-over and buy a external digital crossover and 1 or 2 more stereo amps. You can enjoy direct driver controll and bypass all the crap usually found in the x-overs. Also you can use room correction and have the flexibility to add and switch amps and ajust the level of integration!

Yes, the room was way too small for the Gens. Going active would not have helped... Instead, I sold them for $3600, the G750 center for $450, the Pass X250 for $2600, the Wireworld cables for $200. Bought the Xds for $5000 (demo) and had enough money to get the wife something nice to smooth things over, if you know what I mean.

NHT really did their homework on this one. The very small size of the satellites enabled them to build a very rigid enclosure - minimum baffle, high density, etc. Housing the sub in its own separate enclosure solved a LOT of problems, including isolating its effects on the mid and tweet, and allowing optimum placement. The two drivers are mounted in opposition with a force canceling rod in between, so there is no vibration at all. The use of class D amps does have its advantages (that was a hard one for me...), most of all is size, and heat - the flexibility to put it where an ordinary class A or AB amp could not go. Also, since the components are not subject to the same extremes in temperature fluctuation, they should last considerably longer than their A and AB cousins.

Lastly, unless you know what you're doing, you could screw the pooch doing it yourself. I will assume that you do in fact know how to do it (go active). I will also hazard a guess that your setup costs a tad over the $5000 I spent for the satellites, stands, sub, DEQX/DSP amp and cabling. I am very well aware of the sound of the Divas in their normal configuration, and I have to say I prefer the Xds. However, applying the same technology found in the Xds to your Divas would no doubt have the potential to at least level the field if not outright beat them. Undoubtedly, other manufacturers will in fact do just that in the future. For the time being, though, these sound as good as or better than anything I have heard at any price.

J

Florian

09-25-2005, 08:52 AM

Well i don't know your DIVA experience. Mine are the DIVA Reference which is the latest german edition with precision ribbons from Graz and new Ceramic magnets which increases the field strength and control over the ribbons. I am sure the NHT's sound very nice and i know what small sattelites do and what a combination with a subwoofer can do. Also i know the use of room correction and the active configuration and personally i wouldnt put them anywhere near the DIVA or the Genesis V. The reason for this simple and depends hugely on taste. The regular cone drivers employed in your NHT's are simply not to my liking, this is not only NHT drivers, but also all the drivers from B&W, Dynaudio, Infinity etc.. The are too colored for my taste and simply too slow. They have to fake the dispersion and will not keep a stable image size and correct size of instruments across the field. This problem is also evident in the Soundlabs and ML's with the curved panels. Also the biggest problem is that even with digital eq you miss the radiating size and surface area to display a piano in a room or to display a full size orchestra. Driver speed is also a big IF if you compare them to pure no kapton backed ribbons. I can always hear box coloration and the chassy itself, in all speakers.

I am sure the NHT's are great but with respect diasagree with the statment of revolutionary, best of etc... The technology has been around for a long time, and is used by NewFormResearch, Tact, Lyngdorf, Infinity (partially). The soundfield they are projecting is simply too small on all speakers i know, the different driver materials just doesnt allow for a perfect integration and same color across all frequencys.

Now lets please not start this into a VS. thread, i am very happy that you found a speaker system you like and i am sure that it is very practical. Esp. from the standpoint of the size and requirements, but its not for me and i would personally have kept the Gen's and build the room for them. Later on driven them actively with room correction.

But thats just me. Have fun with them, and i am sure your wife likes them more.

-Flo

PS: Just as a addon, i think its wonderfull that a manufacturer has finally put it all in a nice package but i am not the type of person who jumpes on the first bandwaggon.

MrClean

09-25-2005, 09:16 PM

Florian

09-26-2005, 12:57 AM

Our goals are different, and thats fine. The reason why i can decide upfront is because i know the technology behind it and i know that a non dipole, sub/sat system with ordanary drivers that is driven actively with room correction is not for my taste. NHT is not the first at all, my friend from Lyngdorf Audio in Stuttgart has the small Dalis driven actively with room corrections. Its exactly the same thing as your NHT's exept for the DALI drivers. And i simply would never buy it over the DIVA or Genesis V. Even the reporters of the show said that it sonds large for a small system but not large. The surface area, the drivers, the integration, tonal coloration etc.. are all things i want and if the system wont deliver it then i simply wont ever buy it, no matter how cute. I do not come from a practical point of view. I think its great that you like them tough, but there is no technological whow factor there and i can do the same with my DIVAS quite cheeply but going active and eqing it to flat does not make it sound good. Many people on this forum do not want a flat sound, i know i dont. I had it here, and it wasnt for my taste..

-Flo

John Ashman

09-26-2005, 06:02 PM

Hi Florian,
I see you have other haunts ;) I think MrClean has done a pretty good job of explaining Xd to you, but you do seem to have some misconceptions that I'd like to clear up if you don't mind. It's not unusual, since the technology in this is pretty futuristic. As you say, your tastes are different, so no matter what, you may not like these speakers and I'm not going to convince you that you should. They have a different "take" on the music as compared to ribbon dipoles, so they will sound different. But they also sound different from conventional speakers as well.

But DSP can not make a bad speaker sound good.

This is true, but Xd was engineered from the beginning, 5 years of design, to not only be a great speaker design, but to perform only with DEQX processing. All the right aspects are in place for maximum performance from this acoustic/electronic combination. Low diffraction, low cabinet resonance, small baffle, high level drivers.

1. Tact CD-Drive with Digital AES-B out
2. Tact Digital Preamp and Room Correction
3. Tact Digitial Active Crossover
4. 6x Tact Digital Stereo AMPS

Obviously you can take any good idea to the extreme, but while the Tact can do somethings better than DEQX, it doesn't do other things as well, mainly in the crossover/correction/room EQ, where DEQX is clearly leading the pack in correction technology. At best, it would be a tie, but even that isn't terribly likely. But the Tact system would costs 10s of $thousands. You could buy one or two *more* Xds just for the add on technologies you're mentioning. You could do the very same thing with DEQX and keep it all digital, but, as in the Tact, it runs the cost up to double or triple the cost of allowing a 24/96 AD/DA conversion which are essentially transparent these days.

The regular cone drivers employed in your NHT's are simply not to my liking, this is not only NHT drivers, but also all the drivers from B&W, Dynaudio, Infinity etc.. The are too colored for my taste and simply too slow.

It sounds like you're saying cones are too colored and slow. However, that's the point of DSP. First, it allows a designer to choose a "quick" driver that would be flawed in an analog environment and also take any FR colorations and correct for them. You are also misusing the word "slow". If a driver can reproduce a signal at the require output, then it is not slow, even though it may *seem* slow. The "slow" has to do with transient response (something sealed drivers do well), the rigidity of the driver (the more rigid, the less "slow" the sound seems) and the "stored energy" within the driver (aka ringing, breakup, etc - this is something that is dealt with by the 110dB/octave crossover). I have never heard anyone refer to the SEAS Excel magnesium midrange as "slow" before, you're the first! In any case, "slow" is really distortion, and the Excel driver is *very* good in these areas. No one has called the Xd system "slow" to the best of my knowledge. In fact, it is almost always referred to as "fast" which is another misuse of the word, but you get the idea.

They have to fake the dispersion and will not keep a stable image size and correct size of instruments across the field. This problem is also evident in the Soundlabs and ML's with the curved panels. Also the biggest problem is that even with digital eq you miss the radiating size and surface area to display a piano in a room or to display a full size orchestra. Driver speed is also a big IF if you compare them to pure no kapton backed ribbons. I can always hear box coloration and the chassy itself, in all speakers.

This is highly arguable. The Xd is definitely not faking dispersion. In fact, you could say that a dipole or bipole is "faking" dispersion by bouncing the sound off of the back wall. Xd simply has a different dispersion and avoids the lack of dispersion of analog designs. It takes advantage of the steep crossovers to eliminate all lower treble energy from the midrange driver that would harm the dispersion. Therefore, the system has huge advantages over analog designs and have a sense of "space" and "air" that is more similar to, but not the same as, a bipole or dipole speaker. Further, the very steep crossover between the tweeter and midrange along with the small cabinet and close spacing yields a near perfect approximation of a theoretical "point source" design. The two drivers act as almost one "super driver" that doesn't exist in real life.

I am sure the NHT's are great but with respect diasagree with the statment of revolutionary, best of etc... The technology has been around for a long time, and is used by NewFormResearch, Tact, Lyngdorf, Infinity (partially). The soundfield they are projecting is simply too small on all speakers i know, the different driver materials just doesnt allow for a perfect integration and same color across all frequencys.

This is not really true either. Very primitive versions of this technology has been around, but not nearly to this level. It's like comparing Sony's SXRD to older LCD designs. It's the power of the processor that creates the evolutionary leap beyond previous systems. Xd's performance could be duplicated or even surpassed, but it would require copying most of its design and spending much more money, at least for now. What is "revolutionary" is that such a high-tech solution is placed in something that people might actually buy. It is something like the Mazda Miata when it first came out and made such as splash. Many called it the best convertible made at the time, certainly ground-breaking, even though it was about the least expensive.

i would personally have kept the Gen's and build the room for them. Later on driven them actively with room correction.

Well, sure, but of course, that is a $100K option! What if MrClean WANTS the music in *that* room because that's where he wants to enjoy music? Imagine what Xds might sound like in a purpose built room if it can solve so many problems in a suboptimal room! I'm not saying that solution is wrong, but it is over the top. You could put Xds in every room and closet in your house for that much money :)

but i am not the type of person who jumpes on the first bandwaggon.

I thought you said this technology was old hat ;) This isn't the "first bandwagon", it is just the nicest bandwagon to come along in quite awhile :)

NHT is not the first at all, my friend from Lyngdorf Audio in Stuttgart has the small Dalis driven actively with room corrections. Its exactly the same thing as your NHT's exept for the DALI drivers.

Not exactly the same at all. Even if your friend is using DEQX (and that is what it would take to be in the same ball park), the drivers are critical and while you can convert a speaker to active digital, there are HUGE advantages in designing the speaker from the ground up to BE digital only. This is the case with the NHT

And i simply would never buy it over the DIVA or Genesis V. Even the reporters of the show said that it sonds large for a small system but not large. The surface area, the drivers, the integration, tonal coloration etc.. are all things i want and if the system wont deliver it then i simply wont ever buy it, no matter how cute.

Granted, the Xd was not designed around your taste, it was designed around a "theoretical ideal" as envisioned by NHT. And, or course, dipole is something NHT doesn't do and probably never will. As happened with MrClean, dipoles are more room dependent and require a fairly wide wall and distance from the back wall to sound right. When they are setup well, they sing. When they are not, they sound mediocre at best. Xd isn't designed to conquer the world or convince all audiophiles that this is the path. It is simply what it is and it is designed to put ultra high-end performance into a package that normal people can rationalize and enjoy. It *is* SOTA and it *is* true high-end. But it doesn't look like it from the outside. And it all about the music, not about the gear or the preconceptions, biases, etc. It may be "cute", but it's also a "nymphomaniac" and will change your expectations for your next "encounter" :)

Anyway, i know your preferences from reading some of your posts on Audio Circle, so it's completely fine, I don't want to convince you of anything, just clear up a few things and help you keep an open mind if you can. It will probably give you a few ideas of what might be done with your dipole speakers. Others are already investigating this full force with DEQX technology, so things are about to get interesting.

Happy listening!

Florian

09-26-2005, 11:53 PM

Dont worry i will keep an open mind. When you say that you have to make a small baffle, special chassy (so it doesnt color) and use the DEQX devices etc... then your using them to overcome a problem. A instrument has a body and the sound reflects 360 degrees in real life. The MIC picksup that sound and also the reflections of that sound hitting the walls and other instruments in the place. Taking that recording and having it played back by a system which cannot radiate sound more than 180 degrees you will not reach the goal of having a life instrument playing in your room. A life concert hall or take any life recording the size of the hall and hight differences between the players is simply huge and the NHT's or any other box and planar system has to fake the size. But the tall linesource system comes much closer to the ideal. The membrane is not bended on a apogee and all the drivers have the same lack of color plus your moving some serious air. All the instruments are displayed in the same size rightness. I am sure you will agree that the NHT will not put a real Grand Piano in my room with the sheer size, this simply wont happen. And in order for that little cute driver to do that it has to fake the size, while the planar system doesnt. You need the DEQX to overcome time delay errors and even out the response. For me its too much of a compromise, digital filtering, digital eqing in the room, fake image size, different driver materials etc..I will give them a listen and see if i like them, but i am pretty certain that my conclusion will be the same as with all the other "oh this is new and so great products" systems. Once you go with a planar, you wont go back. And there is a good reason for that ;)

Florian

09-27-2005, 12:29 AM

About the transiants response, i agree and thats another huge strongpoint of the ribbons and the fact they they are all the same and the huge magnetic field that this lightweight membrane moves in. About the dispersion, the big linesources in my room do not fake height dispersion, but the NHT's have to do this. This is another strong point why i never liked box speakers. I need close to the real height i cant stand anything else. Soundstage size is extremely important to me. Then you have the lack of coloration, incredibly good transiant repsonse. No problem with the chassy at all and no problem with subwoofer integration. No hassle with different drivers and its easy to drive and can play over 115db in a 40m2 room measured 4m away. Why on earth would i change that ? ;)

PS: I still think its great that NHT combined it all in a neat package, but it wont cut it for me. I will recomend them to all WAF people and to those that dont want to push a 275lbs speaker.

MrClean

09-27-2005, 07:20 AM

The Apogees are great speakers, no doubt. But they, too, fake image height, width and depth, unless you can pack a jazz quartet, a rock band, or a 107 member sympony orchestra into the space that the Divas occupy. The whole purpose of your stereo setup is to create the illusion of something that isn't there. I'm pretty sure your listening room doesn't seat 2300 people ;-)

J

John Ashman

09-27-2005, 07:56 AM

When you say that you have to make a small baffle, special chassy (so it doesnt color) and use the DEQX devices etc... then your using them to overcome a problem.

Not really. The small, low diffraction baffle means you hear more driver, less cabinet. That's just pure physics. The DEQX side steps half the problems with conventional speakers and compensates for most of the others. It's avoiding problems that other speakers have, not overcoming a problematic design.

A instrument has a body and the sound reflects 360 degrees in real life. The MIC picksup that sound and also the reflections of that sound hitting the walls and other instruments in the place. Taking that recording and having it played back by a system which cannot radiate sound more than 180 degrees you will not reach the goal of having a life instrument playing in your room.

There are a few problems with your ideas here. First, when you record this ambience, you are recording the sound required to make the sound seem "live" with a proper transducer. Purposely bouncing even more sound off of the back wall simply overlays your room over the concert hall. Second, dipoles don't radiate 360 degrees. In fact, they have lower total ambient energy in the room than a monopole, but need to be along a wide wall with a tall ceiling and be well away from the front wall in order to make the sound develop in a realistic fashion. Many people can not have a large speaker 3'-5' from the wall, don't have a wide wall or tall ceiling, and thus the front wall reflection overpowers that sound and makes the speaker sound congested. Different solutions are required for different environments and few can set up dipoles properly.

A life concert hall or take any life recording the size of the hall and hight differences between the players is simply huge and the NHT's or any other box and planar system has to fake the size.

I'm sorry, but could you detail exactly how NHT has to "fake" the size? They are simply trying to provide uniform dispersion within a full hemispherical radiation pattern. What do you mean by "fake". There is no DSP such as SRS or Q-sound or anything going on.

But the tall linesource system comes much closer to the ideal. The membrane is not bended on a apogee and all the drivers have the same lack of color plus your moving some serious air. All the instruments are displayed in the same size rightness. I am sure you will agree that the NHT will not put a real Grand Piano in my room with the sheer size, this simply wont happen.

I don't know how large your room is, so I tentatively disagree. Unless your room is huge, there is no reason why it won't. In fact, I took these speakers to a customers house and set them up. To the left was a large grand piano. The customer put on a Hough piano CD and left the room to quiet his dogs. I didn't realize that he had pressed "play". When the piano came in with such force and realism, I snapped my head around to look at the piano because I was sure that someone had snuck into the room and started playing it. It actually startled the heck out of me, as though someone had snuck and behind me and yelled "boo!" Actual story.

And in order for that little cute driver to do that it has to fake the size, while the planar system doesnt.

The problem here is that that it is hard to record instrument size except through the ambient cues from the original venue. A line source will make all instruments sound bigger. A point source will generally make them sound smaller. However, if the dispersion is broad enough, the room environment will great a "bigness" with many instruments while still allowing a voice to be small and focused. It is simply a different perspective on the sound. Some people like "all big, all the time" and others like pinpoint imaging. The Xd, because of its size, can produce pin point imaging, but also, because of its dispersion properties, give some "size" to the sound. There is no right answer, just different approaches. Different approaches will work better in different rooms and different setups. Remember that monopoles are still radating sound that will bounce of the back wall, just not as much. Note that an orchestra is not jammed up against the wall as many speakers need to me. The sound is allowed to develop around the instruments with generally 10'-20' behind the instruments which keep the initial front wall reflections from overpowering the sound. Monopoles minimize this. To do a dipole or bipole truly right, you'd want a very large room, to get the same type of ambient balance in a concert hall.

You need the DEQX to overcome time delay errors and even out the response. For me its too much of a compromise, digital filtering, digital eqing in the room, fake image size, different driver materials etc..[quote]

Yes, but MOST speakers "need" this. Most speakers are very high in time delay errors and FR. DEQX is not a "cheat". It doesn't "fake" anything. It is like saying 4WD is somehow cheating in the snow. Many are using DEQX with line arrays and reporting excellent results. It simply removes compromises and fixes issues that are difficult to fix in the analog domain. I'd still like to know what you mean by "fake image size" [quote]

Once you go with a planar, you wont go back. And there is a good reason for that ;)

Once YOU go planar, you won't go back. I've personally helped *many* people come back from planar and they are happy about it :)

John Ashman

09-27-2005, 08:09 AM

About the transiants response, i agree and thats another huge strongpoint of the ribbons and the fact they they are all the same and the huge magnetic field that this lightweight membrane moves in.

Yes, but this can also be a strongpoint of a cone driver with good motor structure, proper box and rigid cone. Remember, the mass of the driver is appropriate to the FR it is trying to do. In a perfect world, there would be no mass at all, but that isn't possible. Ribbons have their own issues and are far from perfect. The proof is in the resolution and I have to say, Xd, thanks to the "Excel-ent" SEAS driver has achieved ribbon level resolution, but without some of their problems. YMMV. Again, there are means to ends, if planar was superior in every way, most everyone would use it.

About the dispersion, the big linesources in my room do not fake height dispersion, but the NHT's have to do this.

I'm not sure how you can say a wide dispersion speaker is "faking" height, but a speaker that is 6' tall is not. How many instruments are 6' tall? I'm not following your logic on this, but I do sense your bias, which is fine. I just think it is not appropriate to claim one way is correct, the other "fake". Again, simply a different perspective, one that you might not enjoy as much, or maybe you will and won't want to admit it ;)

This is another strong point why i never liked box speakers. I need close to the real height i cant stand anything else. Soundstage size is extremely important to me. Then you have the lack of coloration, incredibly good transiant repsonse. No problem with the chassy at all and no problem with subwoofer integration. No hassle with different drivers and its easy to drive and can play over 115db in a 40m2 room measured 4m away. Why on earth would i change that ? ;)

No reason to change! And no one is trying to convince you otherwise. Just wanted to clear up a few things and put a little counterpoint on the subject. Digital is a *very* powerful tool that can be used for good or evil. It addresses a LOT of what you don't like about "box" speakers. Coloration can be lowered or avoided. Soundstage size is increased. Transient response is simply choosing the proper driver for the job and using a sealed enclosure. Subwoofer/driver integration is massively improved to the point of true seamlessness because you can get an essentially perfect crossover between the drivers over a very small area. And the high order crossovers allow all metal, pistonic drivers that blend more seemlessly, removing "hassle" as you state. Should you change? Not if you're happy, just realize that something like Xd is in a different league as compared to normal, analog monopoles. Entirely different animal with entirely different properties and sound.

topspeed

09-27-2005, 08:31 AM

You need to hear the new NHT Xd system, with an open mind, before you categorically dismiss prudent use of DSP. These are amazing speakers...

JAllow me to clarify: DSP for room (or the interior of the car) correction is good. DSP for "recreating" the acoustics of the 3rd stall in the men's restroom of Yankee Stadium is bad.

Capeesh?

Florian

09-27-2005, 11:02 AM

Florian

09-27-2005, 11:20 AM

To John Ashman (http://member.php?u=249098):

I am sure you like the NHT's and consider this technology to be groundbreaking. To be honest when you say you helped many people go back from planar and they are happy, i had to laugh. This is a response typical for a discussion like this and means absolutly nothing. I can go ahead and say the same thing about all the people who heard my system and said they consider amongst the best 5 in the world and trashed their colored boxes because not even DEQX could fix the bad sound.

I personaly believe that the ribbon planar technology comes much closer to the ideal than a tiny box speaker targeted to a commercial audience with a complete set of computers to fix the initial problems inherritet in its design quite frankly. Also the Apogees wont fake image height, if you stand on top of a chair and try to get your ears above the system you will a huge dropoff in sound, because they simply dont radiate above their height.

The narrow baffle is amazing for users who come from no transparency. In my room is a system with the size 31x73x3 and these are 100% transparent and you wont ever hear them or a single driver sticking out. About the image depth you say that Apogees fake image depth. Quite the opposite actually, it depends on the recording. If there is no depth they simply wont have it. It depends on the Apogee models and they all have their own strength.

To drive a speaker actively with the DEQX technology is not a problem at all. I can buy the DEQX device and run the ribbons directly. But not all newer technology is better and it has to prove itself.

Last but not least, a closing statment. Please dont say "Apogees" do this and that, because they all do things a bit differently. I heard the Duetta, Stage and Caliper. I owned the Scintilla and have the DIVA now. There is no way to make a statment like that at all. The NHT's are a cute little speaker that with the help of DEQX etc.. can overcome room problems and fix its own shortcomings and has a big wife acceptor factor which is great for the guy.

I will stick with my big Planar, because i know that the generalisations are false and that for me it comes much closer to the ideal and if i find it good than i can run the DEQX infront of it and drive them fully active, no problem at all.

-Flo :p

PS: I come from a server IT background and know that in 1 year they will have a new DEQX out and it will be even better than the one know. The new 1's and 0's will sound better then. I am sure they are great, but too me this technology is not so fascinating then for you.

GMichael

09-27-2005, 12:03 PM

So Bose is out huh?

Florian

09-27-2005, 12:05 PM

So Bose is out huh?
Yup, BOSE is out and NHT is in. The NHT's look sexy, are not all that expensive and i am sure sound great. If you have a WAF problem or simply want a small speaker that can deliver the goods than i am sure its a very cool thing to have. Just not for a biased planar freak who cant be taught better :p

GMichael

09-27-2005, 12:27 PM

Yup, BOSE is out and NHT is in. The NHT's look sexy, are not all that expensive and i am sure sound great. If you have a WAF problem or simply want a small speaker that can deliver the goods than i am sure its a very cool thing to have. Just not for a biased planar freak who cant be taught better :p

Kinda likin' those KEF's from the other day. The Q series looks cool. The reference series would be better, but hey, what can I say? The lotto hasn't come in yet. Those blonde colored ones would match our bedroom furniture so well. 5 of the Q1's and a center would be great. I have a Yamaha HTIB in there now. It's not bad except for the speakers.
Actually the wife like the planners for the living room when the money tree starts growing.

Florian

09-27-2005, 12:28 PM

Kinda likin' those KEF's from the other day. The Q series looks cool. The reference series would be better, but hey, what can I say? The lotto hasn't come in yet. Those blonde colored ones would match our bedroom furniture so well. 5 of the Q1's and a center would be great. I have a Yamaha HTIB in there now. It's not bad except for the speakers.
Actually the wife like the planners for the living room when the money tree starts growing. The big Planars look very good and actually all my friends wifes have no problem with them. They look sexy and like sculptures, well the Aps and Maggies :p

MrClean

09-27-2005, 12:30 PM

Allow me to clarify: DSP for room (or the interior of the car) correction is good. DSP for "recreating" the acoustics of the 3rd stall in the men's restroom of Yankee Stadium is bad.

Capeesh?

No argument here, although you shouldn't judge the 3rd stall in the men's room of Yankee Stadium until you've heard the Divas set up in there. :cool:

Florian

09-27-2005, 12:35 PM

No argument here, although you shouldn't judge the 3rd stall in the men's room of Yankee Stadium until you've heard the Divas set up in there. :cool:
Not that i get that comment :confused:

Florian

09-27-2005, 12:36 PM

MrClean

09-27-2005, 01:52 PM

Not that i get that comment :confused:

Just a quick joke.

You own some very nice speakers - I am sure I would really like the way they sound. They would not work in my house, but that does not take away from what the Divas can do when set up properly...

J

Florian

09-27-2005, 02:04 PM

And i really like the NHT's. I think its a great bundle of technology and i bet it sounds bloddy good too. I am just a planar ribbon freak.

Got a pic of the great stuff in your house?

-Flo