Monster Clean Power is this Hype?

[EdwardGein]

When I see demonstrations in stores how stereo/home theater power sounds versus clean power sound, do you actually notice the difference via a clean power system?

[N. Abstentia]

What's the difference in stereo power and clean power? Doesn't it all come from a copper wire?

[kexodusc]

Why I see demonstrations in stores how stereo/home theater power sounds versus clean power sound, do you actually notice the difference via a clean power system?
Need a bit more info here - what exactly is going on in the demonstration?
This one's new to me, but I smell something fishy going on.
"Clean" power implies that there is "dirty power"...

[EdwardGein]

Need a bit more info here - what exactly is going on in the demonstration?
This one's new to me, but I smell something fishy going on.
"Clean" power implies that there is "dirty power"...

From Monster Cables Web Site:

Patented Monster Clean Power™ Circuitry Removes "Pollution" From Your AC Power for Improved Sound and Picture

It's A Fact: "Dirty" AC Power Can Ruin Your Home Theater Sound & Picture
Audiophiles have known for years that the power coming through the AC line is full of interference and line disturbances that degrade audio reproduction. Dirty power is also caused by radiated high frequency signals, such as those coming from broadcast stations, or even your own video and digital components. You only have to see the interference from a motor or hairdryer to see and hear its effects. With today's digital circuitry and especially with digital video, polluted AC power can cause poor quality sound and picture. The detrimental effects of dirty power cannot be removed by ordinary surge protectors.

Monster's Patented Clean Power Stage 2 v.2.0 Filters, for Better Sound & Picture
Monster's Clean Power Circuitry Stage 2 v.2.0 filters provide excellent AC power line noise rejection. Isolation of audio and video equipment is provided for improved component-generated noise rejection. This results in the best possible sound and picture from your components. You'll enjoy a more natural sound with increased dynamic range as well as the most vivid image possible.

[GMichael]

From Monster Cables Web Site:

Patented Monster Clean Power? Circuitry Removes "Pollution" From Your AC Power for Improved Sound and Picture

It's A Fact: "Dirty" AC Power Can Ruin Your Home Theater Sound & Picture
Audiophiles have known for years that the power coming through the AC line is full of interference and line disturbances that degrade audio reproduction. Dirty power is also caused by radiated high frequency signals, such as those coming from broadcast stations, or even your own video and digital components. You only have to see the interference from a motor or hairdryer to see and hear its effects. With today's digital circuitry and especially with digital video, polluted AC power can cause poor quality sound and picture. The detrimental effects of dirty power cannot be removed by ordinary surge protectors.

Monster's Patented Clean Power Stage 2 v.2.0 Filters, for Better Sound & Picture
Monster's Clean Power Circuitry Stage 2 v.2.0 filters provide excellent AC power line noise rejection. Isolation of audio and video equipment is provided for improved component-generated noise rejection. This results in the best possible sound and picture from your components. You'll enjoy a more natural sound with increased dynamic range as well as the most vivid image possible.

Can this really make a difference in the sound coming out?

[kexodusc]

From Monster Cables Web Site:

Patented Monster Clean Power? Circuitry Removes "Pollution" From Your AC Power for Improved Sound and Picture

It's A Fact: "Dirty" AC Power Can Ruin Your Home Theater Sound & Picture
Audiophiles have known for years that the power coming through the AC line is full of interference and line disturbances that degrade audio reproduction. Dirty power is also caused by radiated high frequency signals, such as those coming from broadcast stations, or even your own video and digital components. .

I love how they just arbitrarily decide what is and what isn't "Fact". Tell ya what,
turn on your system. Don't play anything. Turn the volume way up high.
Now, consider how loud that noise is -- I'm betting on even most cheap a/v receivers it's very, very quiet. Consider how F'N loud the music would be if you pressed play (go ahead and press it if you want to be sure). Relative to the signal, would any "dirty power" even be audible?
What in the @#*$ are you cleaning then?
And what's stopping the "dirt" from rentry to the system AFTER this power cleaning device?

The real funny thing is that most "audiphiles" I know wouldn't be caught dead owning ANYTHING with Monster's name on it.

[3db]

From Monster Cables Web Site:

Patented Monster Clean Power� Circuitry Removes "Pollution" From Your AC Power for Improved Sound and Picture

It's A Fact: "Dirty" AC Power Can Ruin Your Home Theater Sound & Picture
Audiophiles have known for years that the power coming through the AC line is full of interference and line disturbances that degrade audio reproduction. Dirty power is also caused by radiated high frequency signals, such as those coming from broadcast stations, or even your own video and digital components. You only have to see the interference from a motor or hairdryer to see and hear its effects. With today's digital circuitry and especially with digital video, polluted AC power can cause poor quality sound and picture. The detrimental effects of dirty power cannot be removed by ordinary surge protectors.

Monster's Patented Clean Power Stage 2 v.2.0 Filters, for Better Sound & Picture
Monster's Clean Power Circuitry Stage 2 v.2.0 filters provide excellent AC power line noise rejection. Isolation of audio and video equipment is provided for improved component-generated noise rejection. This results in the best possible sound and picture from your components. You'll enjoy a more natural sound with increased dynamic range as well as the most vivid image possible.


*shakes my head* Throw in some buzz words and they make themselves out to be experts in power. There are two conditions you need to worry about. Undervoltage *brown outs* and overvoltage .. Overvoltage I've never see happen with the excpetion of a lightneing strike so that's rare .. . Its the brownouts that is harder on electrical equipemnt, especially disk drives.. But as far as filtering dirty power...... All HT equipment use AC power that gets converted to DC. This conversion will get rid of any of the noise on the line.

[Geoffcin]

The real funny thing is that most "audiphiles" I know wouldn't be caught dead owning ANYTHING with Monster's name on it.

I've got some Monster IC's connecting my component video from my DVD player. They work fine, although I bought them before I heard about what a monster of a company they really are. (I wonder if the'll sue me for using the word Monster now?)

[SlumpBuster]

I always found it hard to believe that reputable manufactures, whether Denon or Krell, would produce amplifiers whose achillies heel was the power supply, or better yet the power cord itself. But, every one has heard or seen "dirty" power at sometime in their life. lIke when someone turns on a hair dryer or the garbage disposal. Three things are demostrated by that phenomenon. 1.) Real dirty power is very easy to detect and very distracting. 2) It is easy to fix by removing the interference. And 3) Snake oil sales man will play on that very observable effect to convince you that there is even more going on.

[N. Abstentia]

If you've got 'dirty power' then you'll know it. Smoke is the first hint. Fire being the second. Fire trucks in your driveway the third. A smoldering heap where your house was is a sure sign.

[kexodusc]

I've got some Monster IC's connecting my component video from my DVD player. They work fine, although I bought them before I heard about what a monster of a company they really are. (I wonder if the'll sue me for using the word Monster now?)

I've got about 9 Monster IC's in my system if I remember correctly. I just bought them because they were on blowout during boxing week sales. The rest are Radio Shack Gold (which we can't get in Canada anymore, they're Circuit City now I guess) or Acoustic Research...the AR cables were my best find...they're dirt cheap these days.

They're all good cables. Don't think I'd pay retail for the Montsers though (component cables for over $140...or the AR's for that matter at $90 something IIRC) but then again, I'm just a hi-fi enthusiasts, not an audiophile, so what do I know?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Even if your power is dirty, don't buy monster anything. There is much more value out there if you want to keep your voltage regulated.

[E-Stat]

Tell ya what, turn on your system. Don't play anything. Turn the volume way up high. Now, consider how loud that noise is... What in the @#*$ are you cleaning then?
Typically, RF generated throughout the house from all sorts of digital devices, most of which are nearby. Your no-signal test does not address the effect on the quality of the signal once it is amplified.

I use a Monster HT-3500 conditioner in my HT system for the monitor, digital cable box and DVD. I find that it offers subtle, but meaningful improvements. It is clearly a stretch, however, to suggest that the audio or video is "ruined" without it. I've had some folks comment that they are unable to tell the difference between an NTSC image and an HD image.

rw

[ericl]

Typically, RF generated throughout the house from all sorts of digital devices, most of which are nearby. Your no-signal test does not address the effect on the quality of the signal once it is amplified.

I use a Monster HT-3500 conditioner in my HT system for the monitor, digital cable box and DVD. I find that it offers subtle, but meaningful improvements. It is clearly a stretch, however, to suggest that the audio or video is "ruined" without it. I've had some folks comment that they are unable to tell the difference between an NTSC image and an HD image.

rw

I've got one of these too. I have everything except my power amp plugged into it. I like it because it separates digital/video from analog components via various filters, and I trust this thing more than a cheapo power strip. Also, I got it super cheap. I want to try plugging my amp and the Monster into a PS Audio Ulitimate Outlet.

FLAMESUIT: ENGAGED!

[pelly3s]

I have to agree with kexodusc on the fact that if you turn your volume up with no music playing that will show you if you have noise coming from your power. Without music playing from any source there is still a small signal coming from it all the way down at the noise floor which should be way down around -100dB or so. Anyways I put this whole thing to the test and proved the Monster rep that came to my shop wrong. I ran the output of the CD player through a scope and then fired up Smaart and checked the output of the speaker and there was no difference in what was coming out of the unit before and after being plugged into the Monster unit. Hey those are just my findings though. I am no expert

[bloosqr]

I just started looking this up because I want to put a surge protector on my amps and equipment for the obvious reasons. But I was wondering whether the amp would trick the surge protector into thinking there is a current surge when there is not. Also there is the issue of RFI interference on the lines which can be cleaned up. I am currently leaning towards just using TRIPPLITE or APCC but monster cables are UL certified surge protectors w/ RFI filter tacked on. And they really aren't that expensive to be honest.



I found the following FAQ on usenet from rec.audio.opinion which I think will be of use to this thread on power/interference and the like.

Nigel's Power Line Conditioner Info Sheet
(C) 2000

V 1.15
This document may be copied so long as it is copied in it's entirety,
including copyright, and so long as it is not posted to rec.audio.high- end

Sections:

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
III. HTML Links
IV. Specific Products & Technology
V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
VI. Closing Comments

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
=====================================
Before there was such a market for high end tweaks and buzz words in high
end audio/video companies like APCC & Tripplite among many others were
already making power conditioners for the computer and electronics industry.
These devices are still made and they are used to provide voltage regulation
for devices like copiers. They used transformers with multiple taps, and as
the input voltage surges or sags the relays or transistors in the power
conditioner would switch among the
different transformer taps. I thought Tice or Audio Power made a similar
device, but I seem to be mistaken. Two good source of non- esoteric power
line conditioners are www.furmasound.com and
www.equitech.com. Pretty good looking stuff if you have common
surge/sagging problems.

Today there are many things called a line conditioner, and they are not all
the same. In general a power line conditioner can be everything from a
power strip with surge protection to larger, beefy boxes that do a variety
of things to the incoming AC power.

A line conditioner may have some features to do the following:

1. Filter the AC signal so you get closer to
an ideal 60 Hz signal.
2. Provide surge protection
3. Provide Under / Over voltage protection
(turns off)
4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)
5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)
6. Provide a lower apparent impedance to the source
(like PS Audio, Elgar, etc.)

Different products work differently, and will have different feature mixes.
The heavier, the more you are paying for, so beleive it or not the cost per
pound is a good indicator of how much is going into the product, and a good
guage of how much you should be paying for it. If you just spent $1,300 on
a power strip you can pick up with your pinky, you paid too much. Articles
in Hi Fi News and Record Review (a brit mag) in 1998-99 give some insight
into building your own.

Alas not all filtration is the same. Products which claim to filter RFI/EMI
only start to work at around 100 kHz or higher, which is far above human
audibility. The theoretically ideal power line filter would filter out all
signals below and above 60 Hz.

II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
============================
II.a: NEEDS
Unless you suffer from chronic over/under voltages at your house then
chances are you don't really need a power conditioner, the system will work
reliably without it.

You may very well find that surge protection is important to you. Check out
the separate "Nigel's Surge Supression Info Sheet".

If you're buying some fancy power line conditioner that is supposed to
include surge protection, ask them if the equipment has been certified to UL
1449 Second Edition. I have yet to see an audio
equipment "Conditioner" manufacturer that claims surge supression publish
any sort of UL or CSA listing on their web site, so be careful about relying
on them for surge supression. This does not include Monster Cable's strips,
they are primarily a surge supressor, with noise filters added, and are in
fact UL 1449 certified.

II.b: WANTS
Audio/videophiles WANT power conditioners because they feel it will improve
the quality of their listening or viewing experience. How much of an
audible or visible difference a power line conditioner will make in your
world depends on the following:

1. The quality of your incoming AC power.
2. The quality of your components power supplies.
3. The resolution of your system
(Fix your room acoustics first, then
worry about power line issues)
4. The effectiveness & features of the
line conditioner.
5. How much noise the line conditioner itself
actually creates
(a potential problem in a UPS)
6. What frequencies the power conditioner's filtration
is effective at.
7. Your gullibility

An example of exceptional power supply design is found in much of Krell and
Mark Levinson equipment some of which use fully regulated, fully balanced
power supplies. This is a rare thing, but any potential benefit from a
power conditioner may be a mute point with this
equipment. Most amplifiers use unregulated, but highly filtered power
supplies, relying on the incoming AC voltage remaining constant, and large
capacitors to reduce any noise on the line.

II.c: WON'Ts
One thing most line conditioners don't do is fix ground loop problems (i.e.
a loud 60 Hz hum you hear coming from your speakers), in some cases they can
actually make things worse by improving the connection to ground of your
equipment. The ideal way to fix a ground loop problem is to use signal
level isolation transformers between your system and the source of the
problem, which is often the cable TV or a computer connection. Check out:

www.jensentransformers.com

for a variety of safe solutions. Otherwise, if you want to start a fire or
electrocute yourself or your family, use a 2-3 prong adaptor, a.k.a. a
cheater plug.

There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that provide balanced
outputs may reduce ground loop related hums, as well as provide a good
lowering of the overall noise floor.

Also, power conditioners should not be used to substitute for bad electrical
wiring. In some cases a power conditioner may make things worse, drawing
more current and stressing the existing wiring. You should NEVER over fuse
wiring.

III. HTML Links
================
Here is a variety of links to people selling things that go between your
equipment and the incoming AC line.

www.apcc.com
www.audiopower.com
www.accuphase.com
www.belkin.com
www.bestpower.com
www.brickwall.com
www.elgar.com
www.equitech.com
www.furmasound.com
www.monstercable.com
www.psaudio.com
www.surgex.com
www.ticeaudio.com
www.tripplite.com
www.vansevers.com

You should also check the links from www.stereophile.com which seem to be
pretty exhaustive, and mention many more manufacturer links to audio related
power line products than I do here. Be warned however that while the list
at Stereophile may be more comprehensive than mine, it's less
discriminating, and includes some products I feel provide
particularly poor return on investment.

IV. Products & Technology
==========================
Some products merit special attention in my book, for a variety of reasons.

Monster Cable
=============
Despite having the WORST web site in all of audio regarding technology, with
gross technical and gramatical errors, several people have sent me e-mails
defending their power strips, claiming they made improvements in picture or
video quality. Heck if I know, but you might want to, they're not too
expensive.

Panamax
=======
Panamax gets special because they do have complete A/V surge protection
solutions their parts quality does not usually merit what they charge, like
$99 for a standard surge strip, and I've read of reliability and warranty
problems online, so you should check the archives at
www.deja.com. In my opinion APCC, Triplite and Belkin all give you more
surge protection/dollar than Panamax.

The Panamax DBS+ I have (got a deal on it) has failed to protect my two
satelite receivers from wind related static discharge , so I'm not too happy
with them these dayas.

Brickwall & Zerosurge
=====================
Working on a completely different principle of surge protection than MOV
based surge protectors are the models from Brick Wall and
ZeroSurge. They are basically single pole low pass filters ( a good thing )
for your power lines. The claimed response is -3db at 3 kHz. This
effectively limits the maximum Volts/Second. When a surge hits, it becomes
a 2nd and 3rd order low pass filter. Surgex also OEM's these devices, or
licenses the technology.

This low start point for their noise filtration puts them into both my Line
Conditioner sheet as well as my Surge Protection sheet.

Audo Power & Tice
=================
Moving closer to the ideal of a power line conditioner are the ones that use
isolation transformers. These have a much better capacity to remove audible
power line noise than mere surge strips. Audio Power & Tice have a variety
of products you should take a listen to, if you can get past Tice's voodoo
web pages (i.e. their Q&A section). Note that not all these products use
isolation transformers, so check to be sure what you're getting.

Richard Gray's Power Company
============================
Tremendous hype on their web site is parroted almost word for word by
dealers and customers. Their web site and "Grey Paper" fails to make any
truly technical statements about what the product does and IMHO they offer
poor return on investment, considering the parts that actually go into them,
and that they sell for around $700. I would encourage people to either
spend another $300 for a PS Audio unit, or spend less for something from
Furmasound or Equitech, or even getting a power conditioner (not a UPS) from
APC or Tripp Lite instead of buying a product from this company.

PS Audio
========
New are the Power Plant models from PS Audio. PS Audio has taken the high
road, and said electrical bill be damned! We'll get clean power no matter
the cost. The Power Plant models are basically power amplifiers that
re-create the 115 Volt AC signal at their output. They are perhaps the most
ambitious designs I've seen so far and again have some good ideas behind
them. Their prices seem very reasonable, considering how much goes into one
and the current offerings of power conditioners in the market, and they
certainly should be able to meet their twin goals of:

Greatly reducing apparent power line impedance

- AND -

Greatly reducing power line noise and distortion

The technology used may very well be the best at doing those two things in
combination.

Since the Power Plants are essentially class AB amplifiers they are no
better than 50% efficient, so expect it to add additional heat and
electrical current draw to your electric circuit, which is something to pay
attention to if you're close to being overloading it already. On the other
hand, using a linear (AB) amplifier stage removes the
likelihood of more digital noise being introduced into the 60 Hz waveform it
generates.

If the PS Audio units don't have enough current capacity, consider the
products from Elgar, sweeet....way expensive! If you have money to burn,
perhaps you should consider an Elgar as a pre-conditioner, and use a PS
Audio unit for your source components only.

Other equipment manufacturers should also take note that unlike many sites
PS Audio's web site was delightfully free of bovine scatalogical samples.

Chang Lightspeed
================
Chang Lightspeed need comments on because of their on-line advertising which
demonizes coils & transformers. They're right about small, poorly designed
coils actually increasing the power line impedance, however what they fail
to note is that by going coilless their
conditioners may very well not be able to remove any power line noise within
the audible spectrum. This noise is the most important to audiophiles are
concerned with as it has the best chance of being propagated through the
power supplies of the equipment and finally to our ears. Perhaps this is
why their on-line advertising mentions RFI/EMI noise reduction so much, and
makes no mention of audio
frequency noise reduction. Coil impedance can be overcome by using bigger
and better inductors.

Does anyone know how much these puppies weigh? I bet you they're lighter
and are less expensive to manufacture than comparative products from
manufacturers who DO use coils in their designs.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies
==============================
A UPS is a must for anyone doing serious computer work, but it's benefits
for audiophiles will vary. If you're going to try a UPS to improve the
sound / picture quality then avoid the standby kind, which have a 2-4 ms lag
before they turn on. Get one labeled "line interactive."

Because UPS's are designed for computers they usually pay little attention
to how much grunge is coming out when they generate the output waveform,
which could in turn easily make your system sound worse, not better. The
solution is to make sure the output of your UPS is a sine wave, with the
lowest possible distortion and noise. So, avoid "stepped aproximation" and
look for "pure sinewave" output.

Lastly, most UPS have a relatively loose voltage regulation. For example,
as the input voltage varies from 90 to 145 volts the UPS will output from
105 to 125 volts. It's a smaller variation than what's coming in, and it's
certainly better than any passive conditioners like Audio Power or Tice but
it's certainly not the best technology could do if money were no object.

Radio Shack
===========
Yes, RS can be an audiophiles best friend, especially when he/she is looking
for a $20 voltage meter. If you think you have a chronic voltage problem at
your home or listening room outlets go get a meter and find out. If it's
bad enough, perhaps you should start with a phone call to your electrical
company and/or electrician before getting a voltage conditioner.

V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
=============================================
One potential improvement audiophiles can make, fairly easily if they are
electronically and dangerously inclined, is to increase the power supply
filter capacitance. You can do this both by replacing the current storage
capacitors to higher values of capacitance (and equal or better voltages)
and also by adding storage capacitance across the maximum + and - voltage
rails of the device (make sure the capacitor's voltage rating is greater
than the difference between the + and - rails, of course). While we're
going there, consider also replacing the filter caps with less inductive
versions if possible such as caps from Sanyo or Panasonic (I think, sorry,
it's been a while since I was opening data books so check this out yourself)
as well as adding polypropelyne or polystyrene capacitors of equal or
greater voltage rating in parallel with any upgrades you do.

Be careful with how much capacitance you add, adding capacitance increases
the turn on (inrush) current and may over-stress the bridge rectifier. Of
course, the fix for this is to add a bigger rectifier so you can get more
power! (Grunt grunt!) And if you fry your transforer too, well that can be
fixed as well!

This little tweak alone can greatly increase the S/N ratio of many mass
market electronic devices far more than other tweaks, such as new power
cables. If you already have a very good power supply it won't matter much
as if you didn't (i.e. it will make a bigger difference for mass market Sony
or Yamaha than Krell or Mark Levinson).

I won't go into any more detail than this, if you have to ask chances are
you shouldn't be in there anyway. Oh, yeah, and as always, if you're an
idiot and hurt yourself or your equipment don't call me, have your mama call
me so I can tell her what a dufus you are.

VI. Closing Comments
=====================
I don't mean to exclude anyone, so if I missed you or a product you feel
deserves special mention send an e-mail to nigel_tufnel@my- deja.com and
I'll add it onto this growing and improving list.

As always, thoughtful, informative discussions are encouraged,
corrections are gladly accepted, and flames may be sent to
hel...@wait.com. It's your ears, eyes and wallet you're trying to
please. Advice from anyone is a good way to start but it's your hard earned
dollar so you should always be the final judge of a products worth.

Happy Listening,

Nigel

[3db]

I have to agree with kexodusc on the fact that if you turn your volume up with no music playing that will show you if you have noise coming from your power. Without music playing from any source there is still a small signal coming from it all the way down at the noise floor which should be way down around -100dB or so. Anyways I put this whole thing to the test and proved the Monster rep that came to my shop wrong. I ran the output of the CD player through a scope and then fired up Smaart and checked the output of the speaker and there was no difference in what was coming out of the unit before and after being plugged into the Monster unit. Hey those are just my findings though. I am no expert

The noise your hearing isn't from "dirty power" but noise from the transistors themselves, thermal noise,, nosie generated by heat in the junctions of the transistor themselves, possibly noise from the resistors too. .. but not from dirty power

[pelly3s]

im not hearing any noise other than the ones in my head

[GMichael]

im not hearing any noise other than the ones in my head

Are the voices in my head getting too loud for you? I'll have them stop. No you won't. Yes I will. Stop it. You stop it.

[paul_pci]

Are the voices in my head getting too loud for you? I'll have them stop. No you won't. Yes I will. Stop it. You stop it.

Speaking of which: I just picked up Identity @ CC for $7.50. Great movie, great sound effects.

[pelly3s]

Are the voices in my head getting too loud for you? I'll have them stop. No you won't. Yes I will. Stop it. You stop it.


the voices in my head keep telling me to buy more speakers i dont need

[Stewrt]

I'm Using the BRICKWALL units. A couple of 15 amp 8 outlet units for all home theatre gear and TV, and a 20 AMP unit for my Amp. Just like it for the surge protection. If it cleand something in the process all the better. Didnt want to plug $20,000 worth of stuff into cheap ass power strips.

I'm living in Puerto Rico right now, lets just say this place doesnt have a first world infrastructure. Lots of electronics seem to burn up even when pluged into surge protectors. I havent had a problem yet. So maybe the conditioning part does take out some spikes and such.

Stewrt