So Flo, you learn from your mistakes, eh?

[markw]

"In Germany, anti-Semitism certainly did not disappear after WW II. What is new is the blunt expression of anti-Semitism and the fraternization between left-wing and right-wing, liberal and conservative streams. Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism continue to spread in German society."

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-urban-f04.htm

http://www.antisemitismus.net/deutschland/ulmer.htm

...might be time to retool the Mercedes factories again. Drop that unemployment rate somewhat.

[ericl]

"In Germany, anti-Semitism certainly did not disappear after WW II. What is new is the blunt expression of anti-Semitism and the fraternization between left-wing and right-wing, liberal and conservative streams. Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism continue to spread in German society."

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-urban-f04.htm

http://www.antisemitismus.net/deutschland/ulmer.htm

...might be time to retool the Mercedes factories again. Drop that unemployment rate somewhat.

and just what the heck is this all about?

[kexodusc]

(walks into room...) Hey guys, what's going o-aaa---uh-oh...(turns around and leaves abruptly...)

[markw]

and just what the heck is this all about?This one.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13530

..seems I can't post a response to him there and with his inflamatory posts and pictures, I'd say that final statement certainly deserves one.

also, I'd really like some sources for his stated figures of the US having a "34% illetracy rate, racism, and 52% working and living under our social service services".

And this is a moderator? You guys sure know how to pick 'em.

[ericl]

This one.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13530

..seems I can't post a response to him there and with his inflamatory posts and pictures, I'd say that final statement certainly deserves one.

also, I'd really like some sources for his stated figures of the US having a "34% illetracy rate, racism, and 52% working and living under our social service services".

And this is a moderator? You guys sure know how to pick 'em.

wow. I'm disappointed in both sides of that thread.

[markw]

wow. I'm disappointed in both sides of that thread.Hey, your moderator took the gloves off first. I would hope he could at least be a man and respond here instead of starting that stupid poll thread. Heck, he's a German kid with more money (as he likes to show) than sense. He doesn't even have a dog in this race.

..cound you at least teach him how to spell "bloody" correctly?

[piece-it pete]

Eric, so am I. But as I'm sure you've been watching we have had very good discussions on some very decisive topics while being able to stay at least borderline civil (mostly). The blame lies on the troll.

Everyone please remember that idiotboy is as much to blame for Nazism as we are for slavery. Hang him on his own statements - it is not hard.

Pete

[Florian]

Its impossible to have a discussion with people that do not even want to consider another point of view. I for one, lived in both countrys and went to school in both country for a number of years. I can speak from experience, you guys just blabber on. One calls me Eurotrash or a Nazi which is redicoulus cause on the other side i hate white men. You guys make no sense, and this is typical for some americans. They never learn and think their country is the greatest. Go America!

[markw]

Although it's fairly obvious to all by now that you have no respect for Americans. So, the question remains why you bother posting here if you hold us in such comtempt? To show off your toys?

And, where did you get those numbers I restated in post four above?

[Florian]

Your putting words in my mouth! I have tons of american friends and international ones.

-Flo

[markw]

Your putting words in my mouth! I have tons of american friends and international ones.

-Flo Particularly after your latest showings here.

Actually, after your "Someone said I hate whites" statement here, I'd say you're the one putting words in other people's mouths.

Oh, here your quote I mentioned earlier in it's entirety.


We may have 18%, but still better than having a 34% illetracy rate, racism, and 52% working and living under our social service services.Now, please attribute those figures. It doesn't have to be MLA standards, but at least cite a source,

[PAT.P]

Your putting words in my mouth! I have tons of american friends and international ones.

-Flo
Flo Im French Canadian and proud of it .I have German ,American friends my spouse is CZECH I dont go dig out dirt out of another Nation .Look in your own backyard Im sure there enought to keep you busy for a while.Its not all perfect in Canada and yes there looser running my country .How did this thread get so out of hand?

[piece-it pete]

After ruminating on this, I have come to the conclusion that our newest guy here enjoys this.

I wouldn't mind having a European viewpoint in our discussions. Not that you've been that impressive Flo! Namecalling? Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

And of course Flo is from Barvaria - I seem to remember that that region is known for its.... bluntness?? Also iirc it is the most conservative German state, so our good buddy Flo may very well be a freak there too :D .

Come on, guys, we vets of flame (and other) wars should have MUCH tougher hides than this. It's the big bad internet for goodness' sake! It gives us a chance to lampoon that particular POV, as well.

Take the gloves off, but stay above the belt. Please.

Pete

[PAT.P]

piece-it pete There some find beer out of the Bavaria region wonder if Flo works in one of those brewery :p

[shokhead]

All Countrys have screwed something up. Like i've said before,they all hate us but when they need something{money},that long arm comes to the USA. Cant live with us,cant live without us.

[Resident Loser]

piece-it pete There some find beer out of the Bavaria region wonder if Flo works in one of those brewery :p

http://www.germanbeerguide.co.uk/corporate.html

jimHJJ(...prosit!...)

[PAT.P]

All Countrys have screwed something up. Like i've said before,they all hate us but when they need something{money},that long arm comes to the USA. Cant live with us,cant live without us.
Neighbor Canada is your most important trading partner ,from oil ,natural gas ,coal,electricity.Dont think we ever begged for money .

[GMichael]

Neighbor Canada is your most important trading partner ,from oil ,natural gas ,coal,electricity.Dont think we ever begged for money .

I still remember the Iran crisis. If you need money/help, just say the word. If George won't send any, I will.

Don't remember you ever asking me for anything, but I have trouble remembering my name.

[piece-it pete]

Don't remember you ever asking me for anything, but I have trouble remembering my name.

Well there was that time that... oh, wait, never mind.

But then that one thing... o heck forget that too.

Aha! A Canadian bum hit me up for $5 once!

:)

Everyone knows that Canadas' trouble. And the French, look out. Mix the two and all hell breaks loose.

:D

There is that time, round about 9-11-01, when all inbound international flights were diverted to Canada, very nice of you folks. Even if all Atlantic flights got stuck in Gander lol. And there is that minor thing of the longest peacetime border in history.

Pete

[kexodusc]

And there is that minor thing of the longest peacetime border in history.

Pete

Before that, them pesky Canadians burned down the White House...But the USA got em' back by stealing hockey from their asses! :D

[GMichael]

Before that, them pesky Canadians burned down the White House...But the USA got em' back by stealing hockey from their asses! :D

We pulled hocky out of their what? That must have hurt so much.

[PAT.P]

Piece-it pete
Ever heard Green Day song "American idiot" was it base on your philosophy ?Im sorry if a Canadian bum took your life saving. Je suis fier d'etre un Canadien francais .

[PAT.P]

Before that, them pesky Canadians burned down the White House...But the USA got em' back by stealing hockey from their asses! :D
That was very painfull,by the way you also stole basketball from us :)

[PAT.P]

We pulled hocky out of their what? That must have hurt so much.
This was before the stick had a curve ,still left us with some splinters :p

[mixadude]

Jeebers, I'd rather argue about jitter than try to argue the supremacy of one nation over any other here. :(

[piece-it pete]

PAT,

My apologies if my last post was unclear.

If anything shows the difference between cultures....

I worked closely with a French Canadian company at my last job for 10 years. I got to know their purchasing agent quite well. At first I thought he was a tough guy, a jerk. I learned that in reality he was a great guy with an unbelievable sense of humor. Our two cultures just had such a different way of communicating it! It took over two years for me to figure it out.

I was complimenting Canada, but in a humorous way. Look at my avatar, read the post again, what it actually said.

1) Canada doesn't come to the US for handouts.

2) You helped us during 9-11.

3) Gander is in the middle of nowhere (I've been through that airport).

The Canadian bum wasn't French, btw, and was in reality a super nice guy (smart to boot, and looked like a Red Green type guy) that had chemical dependancy issues.

I, too, je suis fier d'être Américain.

Pete

[PAT.P]

Jeebers, I'd rather argue about jitter than try to argue the supremacy of one nation over any other here. :(
Some people think that the supremacy of a nation is the power they have for starting a war on somebody else turf .The Canadian were not there to help and we get cut down.If it would of been on your soil we would of been there because we are neighbour .You had a disaster in NewOrleans and we are helping and know Rita is coming your way and im sure the Canadian Goverment will be there to send some kind of help.

[Florian]

You'all know, I think this applies to Flo too. I think it's important for our foriegn friends to know that we here in the US get tired of being blamed for all the worlds' troubles. On the flip side, we can be VERY arrogant without even realising it. Pete I know that the germans before me cost many people harm and i know of my own mistakes. There is no country in this world that is good and a blessing. But American politicians have done many horrible things too in the past and are doing it right now. All i ever wanted to say is that America should learn from the mistakes the rest of the world has done before america even became a uperpower and learn. Europe is a very important part for america and we support america hugely in trade, technology, food and support in iraq and all around the globe. I like all people, no matter where they are from or what religion or color their skin is. I just get too emotinal sometimes :p but i am not the only one who has that fault.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

piece-it pete My ancester were from England landed in the United State and from there some came to Canada (Montreal).This is where the french in us started ,they married french woman and raised the kids in french.

[shokhead]

I missed that Irag support. Remind me.

[Florian]

The chemical research vehicles "Spürfuchs" are used right now in Iraq and came as a support to the US in Afganistan and also Iraq. Part of medical supplys and food packages are also launched directly from germany as a aid to america. The Airfield Rammstein is a mayor help for the air traffic to Iraq directly here from germany. The french denied that! We only said that we will not support a war that was began without the Nato aproval. I agree with that, but we helped with no military efforts.

-Flo

[Florian]

May I also add that our military (what little there is) is in Afganistan right now supporting america in the rebuilding of the country which we never attacked in the first place. Our medical and food supplys where in the United States after NewO disaster before the american goverment dispatched the relief help! We are a strong ally and help our american friends, but simply dont apreciate it when we are being called "old europe" when we disagree together with the rest of the world (exept england) on a war in iraq.

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

Flo, where's you get that post? Are you making up statements by me??



:D

Nah, once again the post came up BEFORE the last one I posted (how does that happen?), I deleted it and was going to move it ahead, but you must've responded to it in the 10 seconds it was up.

On Iraq, like me and many of my own countrymen, we will have to agree to disagree.

One thing that has been forgotten by most is that SOMEBODY will always be on the top of the heap. The US isn't perfect, as you mentioned no country is, but looking over the current international scene at the viable alternatives, I think the world is lucky it's us. Consider the UN, the WTO, as well as free trade overall plus keeping world shipping lanes open (which is unbelievably expensive).

Hubris? Perhaps. I think there's some hard-headed truth in there too. I once heard the statement: "It's tough to share a bathtub with an elephant, even if the elephant is TRYING to be nice".

Pete

[piece-it pete]

Oh and I wanted to mention that I see disagreements with countries like France, Canda, Great Britain and Germany FAMILY fights.

Pete

[kexodusc]

Oh and I wanted to mention that I see disagreements with countries like France, Canda, Great Britain and Germany FAMILY fights.

Pete

Are you kidding me? If these disputes were like my family's fights the sky would already be gray (or grey, god I hate dual-citizenship!) and we'd all be glowing in the dark. Most of it is just political grandstanding for the press at home.

[kexodusc]

plus keeping world shipping lanes open (which is unbelievably expensive).


I think the reality here is that we are an incredibly dependant nation compared to some, both for the natural resources we don't have but consume at incredible rates, and on the manufacturing abilities of others. Some countries are very resource rich and would be very self-sufficient if isolated. I'd argue nobody else relies on those shipping lanes as much as the USA so it's only natural we foot the bill. You've got to admit too, if you're a pirate or terrorist, are you gonna target Finland's trade vessels, or the USA's?

Though I'd expect China to have a vested interest in the near future to protect their exports, which could create a very interesting situation...Not to mention Russia's economy is starting to grow at an alarming rate (and will continue to do so once an entire generation under free-market enters the business world).
Fear not, I think help is on the way in the not too distant future.

[shokhead]

We didnt attack a nation,we removed an AHole in SH.

[piece-it pete]

kex I agree it's a darn good thing MY family doesn't have nukes!

Keeping the roads open, well, it is "enlightened self interest". The world benifits. As a matter of fact the history books will call this age something like "Pax Americana".

This is true. False modesty is not a virture.

Our INCREASE in armed services spending after 9-11 was larger than the the total budgets of the 4 next largest militaries - combined. This is not due strictly to Iraq, consider we took care of Germany AND Japan at the same time, and our economy was much smaller then.

Russia and China are run by cartels. Time will tell if they can keep it together imo.

It was a Canadian who pointed out to me that the rest of the world would have far less money to spend on social services if they had to pay the true cost of their own security. As a matter of fact my one big beef with Canada right now isn't Iraq - it's the fact they will not contribute to the missle shield being designed and built (and paid for) by the US (that will also protect Canada).

Pete

[kexodusc]

.

It was a Canadian who pointed out to me that the rest of the world would have far less money to spend on social services if they had to pay the true cost of their own security. As a matter of fact my one big beef with Canada right now isn't Iraq - it's the fact they will not contribute to the missle shield being designed and built (and paid for) by the US (that will also protect Canada).

Pete

This is an interesting comment...Canada has committed a great deal of funds towards this project, continues to fund NORAD and has given the USA permission to use its airspace for self defense purposes.
I think the truth, and what the media (and even politicians) are reporting on this issue has become very distorted.
Politically, with a minority government for the time being, it is difficult for the governing party to openly declare endorsement. They didn't in the time frame president Bush demanded. And consequently, those bold demands that ignored the requests for an extension on the question (to such a point in time when it would have been an easy political sell) probably ticked off the government a bit. Make no mistake about it though. Canada is contributing to the project whether directly or indirectly. The opposition left wing party in Canada was very upset, and very quick to reveal this as argument against the the governing party earlier this year. Oddly enough, despite the supposed public opposition, I have yet to meet one Canadian that doesn't wholly endorse the project.

By next spring, there will be another federal election in Canada which will go one of two ways:
1) the current government will once again win a majority (most likely) and then continue with openly endorsing the project
2) the opposition conservatives will win the election and openly endorse the project.

I wouldn't worry too much about this.

[Florian]

Not to start anything but my father is devloping parts of that "missile shield" and he said that eventough the goverment knows that it will not work they still dumb all the money into it. He works in the development section of SBS Technologies. They also developed parts of the Mars Rover here in germany!

Just a quick note as to why america did start the war and why it was unjust. After the 9-11 Attacks which are highly suspect on their own the world agreed that Bin Laden was hiding in Afganistan. The whole world agreed to move in and attack that country. Bin Laden was never found. America did attack Iraq before (Bush Senior) but they stopped the attack and instead of removing him, used him. They used him for oil and made deals with the Ladens also. They trained the Bin Laden to fight against the russians in Afganistan. They supplied him with weapons, and by buying oil from them he actually made them strong.

So what you have now, is that Bin Laden was cut loose from america after they used him and he got pissed. Saddam was sitting there in Iraq and would have died sooner or later. But after the 9-11 attacks Bush only had to call it the fight against Terrorism to move and finish the job his father failed to do and moved into Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, America could not deliver any proof of nuclear weapons or show the NATO that the Iraq was a threat at all! And thats why europe did not agree to join the war.

Coming back to the 9-11, the reason why america got such a shock from it is because they thaught nothing can touch them at home. America never had terrorism on their own land. Germany, France, Italy and England had attacks and Terrorism on their own soil before, this was nothing new. Bush used that shock to create such things as Homeland security which gives him the power to look into anybodys home, files etc. on the basis that they have something to do with Terrorism. This is not only highly wrong, but the freedom that americans worship so much is fading fast compared to other nations around the globe.

Yes, we are against terrorism. But that "modern" terrorism has been created by that superpower and now we see attacks such as the ones on Great Britian and Spain. Those countrys entered the war with Iraq, Germany didnt i am very glad we didint. The was unjust, even if they removed an a-hole!

America is not the world police, noone ever asked them for this.

-Flo

[Florian]

I know that 9-11 was not the first, but it was the largest as in "100% damage". This was and is considered the first major hit from a foreign terrorism group on american soil.

Flo

[GMichael]

Coming back to the 9-11, the reason why america got such a shock from it is because they thaught nothing can touch them at home. America never had terrorism on their own land. Germany, France, Italy and England had attacks and Terrorism on their own soil before, this was nothing new. Bush used that shock to create such things as Homeland security which gives him the power to look into anybodys home, files etc. on the basis that they have something to do with Terrorism. This is not highly wrong, but the freedom that americans worship so much is fading fast compared to other nations around the globe.


-Flo

9-11 was not the first Terrorism on our soil. In fact it wasn't even the first attack on the towers.

[Florian]

9-11 was not the first Terrorism on our soil. In fact it wasn't even the first attack on the towers.
I know that 9-11 was not the first, but it was the largest as in "100% damage". This was and is considered the first major hit from a foreign terrorism group on american soil.

Flo

[PAT.P]

We didnt attack a nation,we removed an AHole in SH.
If it was as simple as this .Children and woman were killed ,cities were destroyed ,your soldiers are killed even when as we speak.Yes you removed him ,know your spending $$$ to rebuild and want the rest of the world to chip- in to rebuilt what you've broken.It took alot of time after 9/11 to start your war and it was probably to satisfied your people.The US knew they were a target way before 9/11 and had info on it but did'nt re-act .They were saying nobody would try anything on our country .Your army is powerfull I agree,but now you have a price to pay.The fear that it could happen again and again.You have money for wars and all the best arms for starting one.Dissaster of natural cause hits NewOrleans and both arms are tied behind their backs instead of being there before it hit.Hope their there helping your people before Rita hits them.Did they learn will see.

[piece-it pete]

kex thank you for the input.

I am glad to hear that we are getting more support than is commonly known from Canada.

One problem is that there is so little "real" international news. The best sources I've found, the BBC and the WSJ, still tend (!) to an editorial slant and in the case of the BBC, too short, and the WSJ, too much! (who can read a whole paper daily anymore??)

That plus the political grandstanding by various gov'ts you have mentioned.

Flo the moon shot was considered impossible. So far the best bet has been that technology grows faster than estimated.

A couple of questions and comments:

How is the wtc attack "questionable"?

I thought it was the UN using Saddam for oil. As far as cutting deals with the Bin Laden family, well that's like saying we cut deals with the Sauds.

Do you really believe that the Dept. of Homeland Secrurity can just walk into my house?? I think you're forgetting how heavily armed we (the people) are over here. And how many years can your police hold a terrorism suspect with NO charges?

We created terrorism? Doesn't Germany buy oil too? How are we responsible for the Chechen elementary school attack in Russia?

Pete

[piece-it pete]

Dissaster of natural cause hits NewOrleans and both arms are tied behind their backs instead of being there before it hit.Hope their there helping your people before Rita hits them.Did they learn will see.

If you think the minor action in Iraq creates issues/shortages in the US you are mistaken and really don't grasp the size of this country/economy. There were over 8,000 National Guard troops in Louisiana alone when Katrina hit.

Pete

[kexodusc]

kex thank you for the input.

I am glad to hear that we are getting more support than is commonly known from Canada.

One problem is that there is so little "real" international news. The best sources I've found, the BBC and the WSJ, still tend (!) to an editorial slant and in the case of the BBC, too short, and the WSJ, too much! (who can read a whole paper daily anymore??)

That plus the political grandstanding by various gov'ts you have mentioned.


Pete,
I think Canada is just bitter that George W. snubbed them by not mentioning them in 9-11 speech...he had a prior history of being relatively insenstitive to Canadians. Sometimes they take things too personally maybe. Who doesn't at times?
Then the last Canadian Prime Minister decided to make George W his personal PR tool.

His father was quite popular both in Canada with Canadian Prime Ministers.

[piece-it pete]

His father was quite popular both in Canada with Canadian Prime Ministers.

I'm afriad Jr. isn't as... diplomatically adept as Sr.

I didn't know Sr. was popular up there, but not too surprised, as it seemed he was very plugged in to the "New World Order". He must have been horrified when he tossed his cookies on that Japanese minister!

Pete

[Florian]

Without getting personal, but your reaction is exactly this.


On the flip side, we can be VERY arrogant without even realising it.
We buy oil from russia mostly and are in the process of buidlind a huge international pipline so that we are not dependand on american wars in the middle east.


How is the wtc attack "questionable"? It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower. Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms. It is also highly suspect that the US was airlocked exept the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states. If i know that Bin Laden (and they knew) attacked and destroyed a American landmark then i do not let his family fly out while the entire country is airlocked.


I thought it was the UN using Saddam for oil. The UN does not use Saddam for oil. The United States did not finish the war in iraq and used Saddam for oil trades and to finance the Ladens.

All we do is buy a good which in this case is oil for a price. If the price gets too high, we dont simply invade the country for the resource like the US did.


Do you really believe that the Dept. of Homeland Secrurity can just walk into my house??
If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot act!


We created terrorism?
The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it. The 9-11 attacks were to come sooner or later, but it being Walker Bush whos dad dealt with the Ladens in during the time he was dealing with the foreign affairs made this to be one strike.

And again, yes we buy resources from all over the world. But we do not invade coutrys for the resource. We do not cut deals with Iraq or Iran for that matter. The United States goverment used their current enemy in the war against the russians. They financed him and are fighting their own monster now. But only now, the poor people on this globe have to finance US wars and fear terrorism because bush said: "If you are not with us, you are with the enemy" or close to that.

There are new training camps being build for terrorists in Iraq right now! Same in Afganistan! Germany, Italy, Spain, Great Britian etc...all have to chip in. Saddam had billions of dollars of dept with germany, but we dropped it so that they can get a new start.

Noone ever asked us about it. The USA, as it always does just walks in and takes what they want. We live in a global times, the US is highly dependand on Asian and Europen trade and can not support its own weight. No country can, so the US better wake up and become a part of it instead of going the way alone.

Also, you speak of 8000 men in NewO. Fact is: The repsonse was horribly slow, badly planed (not planed at all). People are still dying, the US household is in the worst crisis ever. There is no money, huge dept. increase in gas prices.

This President was horrible. The US is in the worst state it has ever been in. EVER!!

-Flo

[shokhead]

That first plane stuff is such a strech ands crap. Nobody fricken knew what the heck was going on and before anybody did,the second one hit. Now go ahead withj another story. Dumb by me so i took it off myself.

[markw]

It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower. It would take a good leader quite a bit of agonizing before ordering his fighters to down civilian aircraft with hundreds of lives in it. Remember, there was only a 16 minute lag before thesecond plane hit the WTC.

Would you have ordered your fighters to shoot civilian aircraft loaded with civilians that quickly?


If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot actWell, we wrote the patriot act to give some wiggkle room in certian situations but we also hae something here called rights, which we do try to preserve. Perhaps that's part of our problem though. Being a little too liberal. I guess if someone looks like an arab we should justthroe 'em out, eh?.

You should read parts of our constiitution!


The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it.Really? What about Iran in 1979 under the gentle Jimmy Carter? No, 9/11 was in the planning stages well before W took office. He just happened to catch the hot potato.


America is not the world police, noone ever asked them for this..Well, we waited for Europe to do something about that messy Serbia/Herzgovena thing before the they massacred each other but it never happened. We had to step in the save them from killing each other and having the battle spread to other countries. Where was your great EU in this situation? Where was Germany for that matter?

And, if we did not have to stifle the German incursions into the rest of the world TWICE in the last century, you might have a point. YOU made us need to get strong. YOU showed us the need to be ever viligant. You also showed us that if left unchecked, some countries will take advantage of others. Did you forget the holocost? Did you read the two links I posted at the top of this thread?

Remember, after the war was over we nurtured your smoking heap of a country back to life. American money poured in there by the tons. We airdropped tons of food to feed your grandparents.

What would your country have done had it won? Would it have rebuilt England, France and all the other countried it raped and let them run themselves? ...or wouldthey all be bespeaking German now? Would all the Jews in the world be gone by now? How about the blacks? How about any others that didn't fit the Aryan ideal?

And, from some of your hard nosed ideas you spout forth here about stepping on peoples rights and shooting down your own civilians with such a cavalier attitude, I'd say that we still need to be on the lookout. It seems the master race still sees itself as such.

[Florian]

That first plane stuff is such a strech ands crap. Nobody fricken knew what the heck was going on and before anybody did,the second one hit. Now go ahead withj another story. Kinda like saying the Germans didnt know until the first million were dead. The more stories i read from you,the more i belive you,ve been gone with your tv,newspaper and radio shutdown.
It is easy to attack the weakest point. Why dont you comment on the rest? Bush knew exactly what happend, the guys bloddy sat there with a childrens book in his hands. Get the military up in the air!

[Florian]

It would take a good leader quite a bit of agonizing before ordering his fighters to down civilian aircraft with hundreds of lives in it. Remember, there was only a 16 minute lag before thesecond plane hit the WTC.

Would you have ordered your fighters to shoot civilian aircraft loaded with civilians that quickly?
Yes i would have. Hundreds vs. thousands. Its a damn tough choice, but a obvious one.


Well, we wrote the patriot act to give some wiggkle room in certian situations but we also hae something here called rights, which we do try to preserve. Perhaps that's part of our problem though. Being a little too liberal. I guess if someone looks like an arab we should justthroe 'em out, eh?.

You should read parts of our constiitution!
Well after putting all the black people on TV and showing 90% of blacks on police videos and enslaving them plus killing all the indians and putting them in reservations it doesnt matter much anymore :p


Really? What about Iran in 1979 under the gentle Jimmy Carter? No, 9/11 was in the planning stages well before W took office. He just happened to catch the hot potato.

[quote=markw]Well, we waited for Europe to do something about that messy Serbia/Herzgovena thing before the they massacred each other but it never happened. We had to step in the save them from killing each other and having the battle spread to other countries. Where was your great EU in this situation? Where was Germany for that matter?
Well after WWII we are not allowed to produce a military or starts wars. We are denied!


And, if we did not have to stifle the German incursions into the rest of the world TWICE in the last century, you might have a point. YOU made us need to get strong. YOU showed us the need to be ever viligant. You also showed us that if left unchecked, some countries will take advantage of others. Did you forget the holocost? Did you read the two links I posted at the top of this thread?
All i have to say to that is that this is the only defense you guys ever bring up. As soon as the US screws up, i get to hear about the Holocaust. America never learns from other mistakes and still plays the world police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html



emember, after the war was over we nurtured your smoking heap of a country back to life. American money poured in there by the tons. We airdropped tons of food to feed your grandparents.
Interesting. After Russia, England and the US split up germany and exploited its technology and sanctioned the crap out of it you see yourself as the shining star for helping the people? For gods sacke the US, Russia and GB destroyed everything that was here. Not only military objects but all innocent civilians too.


What would your country have done had it won? Would it have rebuilt England, France and all the other countried it raped and let them run themselves? ...or wouldthey all be bespeaking German now? Would all the Jews in the world be gone by now? How about the blacks? How about any others that didn't fit the Aryan ideal?
Dont ask me, i was not part of that time. I was born many years later! You would be speaking german by now properbly.


And, from some of your hard nosed ideas you spout forth here about stepping on peoples rights and shooting down your own civilians with such a cavalier attitude, I'd say that we still need to be on the lookout. It seems the master race still sees itself as such.
I wont even comment on that reply, that is soo incredibly stupid i dont even know what to respond to that.

[Florian]

You guys cannot differentiate between politics and people. You do not learn from the past and see yourself as the world police. All you can do is put the blame on me. I had nothing to do with the WWI or the WWII. You guys have no intelligent defense of Americas actions and just bring up the Holocaust over and over again. Until you learn that your goverment is hugely responisble for most problems because it plays world police, this discussion is over. Besides its incredibly stupid to call me part of the Master race and to judge all germans like you do. You dont even live by your own constitution. Remember the blacks, the indians, the iraq people, the german civilians, the japanees, the koreans and the poor people suffering in NewO. Dont forget the people in Afgansitan and all around the globe.

I feel sorry for the poor american soldiers who had to die in this pointless war, and fortunatly over 54% are against the war and are against Bush, this leaves some hope left.

-Flo

[Florian]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! What mistakes and what world changing events does germany do right now? We never threatend anyone after WWII, have a new political system since a long time. Are a major technological and economical power and work with the rest of the world. You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.

[piece-it pete]

Are we staying civil? Hmmm....

Back tonight or tomorrow. Hope the world doesn't stop by then!

Pete

[shokhead]

Flo,your so nuts.

[shokhead]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! What mistakes and what world changing events does germany do right now? We never threatend anyone after WWII, have a new political system since a long time. Are a major technological and economical power and work with the rest of the world. You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.


Cool! Germany can start making sure the rest of the world doesnt get nuked. Germany can loan{give} money to countless other struggling nations. Euro's,geez. How does that story go,i think it was last year when France had a heat wave. Didnt a couple of people die because France didnt do anything? I might have the story wrong. Ya see,everybodys sh$t stinks.

[piece-it pete]

Without getting personal, but your reaction is exactly this.

I disagree, so I'm arrogant? So far you've painted Germany as a fair flower of decency and goodness - but I recall hearing many rumours of German business selling, say, nuclear secrets and other devious technology to many many unsavory characters.


We buy oil from russia mostly and are in the process of buidlind a huge international pipline so that we are not dependand on american wars in the middle east.

So, if the middle east goes up in flames, and the price of a barrel of oil quadrauples or more, it doesn't effect you? Your buying oil outside of the ME doesn't effect world supply & demand?


It is questionable in terms of reaction. Mr.Bush had no respondance after the first plane hit the building. No military actions where taken and the second plane hit the tower. Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms. It is also highly suspect that the US was airlocked exept the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states. If i know that Bin Laden (and they knew) attacked and destroyed a American landmark then i do not let his family fly out while the entire country is airlocked.

It is easy to second guess decisionmakers. And letting the Sauds out was a mark of our civility - there's a good chance that they would have been subject to unbelievable harassment (at least) had they been forced to stay here. Furthermore, "US was airlocked except the one single airplane that took the Bin Laden family out of the united states" is a myth - there were limited flights in operation countywide by that time. In our Constitution it says treason "shall work no corruption of blood" - you can't blame relatives for the actions of a family member.

"Also it is odd that most people did not come to work on that day that effect the big us firms." - conspiracy theory? If 10 people couldn't keep Clintons' Oval Office affairs quiet how on earth would this be kept?


The UN does not use Saddam for oil.

Hahahahahaha. :D :D

Although I suppose you're right - their chief aim was money.


The United States did not finish the war in iraq and used Saddam for oil trades and to finance the Ladens.

We walked in the first war 'cause the ME and Europe (including Germany) (and many here) were making a big fit about "We threw him out of Kuwait" and refused to help us finish the job. I agree with you - we should have blown off world opinion and gone alone.


All we do is buy a good which in this case is oil for a price. If the price gets too high, we dont simply invade the country for the resource like the US did.

We are stealing oil from Iraq? I agree with you again, though - we ARE staying there for a long time. We're going to milk that country just like our troops in Germany have been for decades and decades.


If they suspect you to be a terrorist or involved in terrorist attacks, then yes. They will walk in your home, look into your past. They will get every single bit of information from you. You should read parts of the patriot act!

I'm with Mark here. We have more sense than to let these - child murderers - use our own laws and rights against us. And you still haven't answered my question about Germanies' anti-terrorism laws.


The modern form of terrorism was created or sparked from the current Bush administration, there is no question about it. The 9-11 attacks were to come sooner or later, but it being Walker Bush whos dad dealt with the Ladens in during the time he was dealing with the foreign affairs made this to be one strike..


Bin Laden was behind the Somolia "Blackhawk Down" problem and the attacks on the USS Cole. And the embassy attacks in Africa. His minions are currently behind the suicide attacks in Iraq - against Iraqi civilians.


And again, yes we buy resources from all over the world. But we do not invade coutrys for the resource. We do not cut deals with Iraq or Iran for that matter. The United States goverment used their current enemy in the war against the russians. They financed him and are fighting their own monster now. But only now, the poor people on this globe have to finance US wars and fear terrorism because bush said: "If you are not with us, you are with the enemy" or close to that.

Nah, you don't invade them, you just do shady back room business deals with them.

Yes, we used "Binnie and the Jets" against the USSR. As a matter of fact I would think more than one Russian smiled behind his hand when the WTC was attacked. I think it's a German term - "Real Politik".

When you say "poor people" do you mean people that are poor, or the poor, sad people? No one HAS to help us do anything. And to reiterate, Bush was REELEECTED BY A MAJORITY - after the invasion of Iraq.

A clear-thinking Country understands that the threat "If you are not with us, you are against us" as a promise toward countries that were harboring (or worse) terrorists that have PROVED their intent towards us.



There are new training camps being build for terrorists in Iraq right now! Same in Afganistan! Germany, Italy, Spain, Great Britian etc...all have to chip in. Saddam had billions of dollars of dept with germany, but we dropped it so that they can get a new start.

Do you believe we won't take care of those camps?

Allies gave of their own accord, and will not be forgotten. Even if they were pushed, cajoled, even bullied a bit, not one of those countries would have had any repercussions except financial.

Why was Saddam so in debt to you? What exactly did he buy from you - aspirin? Clothes for the poor?

I do want to thank you for the non-military support you've given the newly-free Iraqis. I did not know about that. This is no bs, those folks have a chance and you're helping, I know.


Noone ever asked us about it. The USA, as it always does just walks in and takes what they want. We live in a global times, the US is highly dependand on Asian and Europen trade and can not support its own weight. No country can, so the US better wake up and become a part of it instead of going the way alone.

We act unilaterally when we see fit. Look up the word "Sovereign". I do believe it was our backbone during the cold war (remember "no cruise missles?) that reunified Germany.

It would hurt everyone, particularly the very poor worldwide (they would starve in the millions - at least), if the trade routes crashed but we here wouldn't stave. I doubt you guys in Germany would either.


Also, you speak of 8000 men in NewO. Fact is: The repsonse was horribly slow, badly planed (not planed at all). People are still dying, the US household is in the worst crisis ever. There is no money, huge dept. increase in gas prices.

Yes, NO was a black eye, but it had NOTHING to do with our small involvements worldwide. No one is still dieing, sorry. And just wait till you meet the rebuilt NO.

Worst crisis ever? Aaaag, whatever shall I do? See below.


This President was horrible. The US is in the worst state it has ever been in. EVER!!

-Flo


What do you mean, was? You alls have to put up with him till '08! :p

As far as the US being in bad shape, you might want to consider our growth has been and is good, in spite of horrible disasters like 9-11, NO, etc, etc. And my Grandfather (who lived through the depression) might have something to say here, as well.

Pete

[shokhead]

I'm thinking there was no handbook on what to do when attacked on your home ground like 9/11. I'm trying to remember the last Pres to have to read that book. Look,Bush isnt great but geez,look what he's dealt with. BTW,hows Germany's growth these days?

[markw]

shadenfreude - roughly translated to mean taking glee at another's misfortune.

...and it exists only in German. Why am I not surprised?

[Resident Loser]

I am upset with the mistakes that the US administration does right now! You guys wont find any blame to put on me for the current events. We learn from our past. But not the current US administration.

...Europe is responsible for all that has developed in the Middle East...you laid the groundwork for it...it was the ongoing repression of the European Jews THROUGHOUT Europe that begat the Zionist movement in the late 19th century.

Between 1845-1914 the Jewish population in Palestine grew from around 12,000 to 85,000 as a result of immigration FROM Europe. In 1896 due to the growing anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, tried to find a political solution in his book "The Jewish State". In Switzerland, 1897, the first Zionist congress issued the Basle program which promoted the colonization of Palestine.In 1906 they decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine rather than the other choice of Argentina, partly due to the proximity of the former to Europe.

In 1914, Britain at the outbreak of WWl, promised the independence of Arab lands then under Ottoman rule including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany. In 1916, the Sykes-Picot Agreement divided the Middle East into zones of influence; Lebanon and Syria assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain. Palestine was to be internationalized. The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917 by the British government for the establishment of Palestine as a Jewish home state. This was partly done to pre-empt a similar plan under consideration in Germany...the British wanted dominance in the region to maintain control of the Suez Canal and to curry favor with international Jewery...funny thing is, Germany's motives were somewhat similar. They thought such a move would keep the potential manpower of Russia's Jews out of the Eastern Front. Talk about politics making for strange bedfellows. Realpolitik as I recall.

At the end of the war, Jews began to migrate to Palestine, which by that time was a British mandate approved by the League of Nations. The Jewish population increased dramatically during the 1930s when large numbers of Jews fled Europe as a result of Nazi persecution. As the population increased, so did the unrest within the Arab population...who, in 1936, held a six-month general strike to protest the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration. In 1945, Arabs opposed to further Jewish influx, organized the League of Arab States...it wasn't too long after this the real fun began and continues to this day...

So while Bin Laden may hate us for our current presence in Muslim holy places and our support of Israel, it's Europe that had sown the seeds for discontent long before we ever entered the picture.

Again, I'd like to point out that prior to1962, when we sold Hawk missles(supposedly defensive weapons) to them, the U. S. state department considered Israel a Zionist state as a result of their overstepping the bounds of the UN mandate that created Israel in 1948. This only transpired as a cold-war counter to the USSRs support of Egypt as a step for balance in the region in an attempt to keep the Suez canal open for international(particularly European) commerce.

So before you run amuck and continue to bellow about our contributions to global tensions, I'd suggest you take a good, long, hard look at your complicity in the situation.

jimHJJ(...you opened the can of worms, now we gotta' try to clean it up in our own sloppy style...)