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musicoverall
09-16-2005, 12:17 PM
What's going on???

Granted, if I never hear the term DBT again, it'll be too soon but there is an awful lot of science behind audio that I have learned from this site in the past. Much, much more for me and other subjectivists to learn in the future. So where is Robot Czar, JNeutron, Monstrous Mike and the gang? Nothing new to share?

Smokey
09-16-2005, 02:31 PM
Well, some people just get tired of arguing back and forth about subjective or objective mud slinging that goes around audio discussion boards. The same discussion have been going on since the start of Internet forums. The participants might have change, but argument remain the same :)

bjornb17
09-16-2005, 02:35 PM
yeah i was the last one that posted and thought the same thing, but i didnt want to start a useless post commenting on it :P

Resident Loser
09-20-2005, 05:35 AM
...it all devolves into the same ol', same ol'...ever since management "ghetto-ized" the procedings by creating the "Lab" and tried to turn the place into a warm and fuzzy "hit" factory, the overall tone of the the place has deteriorated...at least on a tech level.

You could post charts and graphs or make cogent and reasonable arguments/presentations re: the folly of most things audio, but the knee-jerk reaction to them will be "I hear what I hear'...so be it.

Sometimes you get tired of talking to brick walls.

jimHJJ(...so remember kiddies, be careful what you wish for...)

FLZapped
09-20-2005, 06:41 AM
What's going on???

Granted, if I never hear the term DBT again, it'll be too soon but there is an awful lot of science behind audio that I have learned from this site in the past. Much, much more for me and other subjectivists to learn in the future. So where is Robot Czar, JNeutron, Monstrous Mike and the gang? Nothing new to share?


Well, considering the policy attitude of the "new moderators/owners," I would suspect many of whom you mentioned have moved on (Like to Audioholics).

Funny how they(owners/moderators) thought they were going to get improved participation with new policies.

-Bruce
(Maybe ther IS nothing like a good argument.....)

musicoverall
09-20-2005, 06:41 AM
...it all devolves into the same ol', same ol'...ever since management "ghetto-ized" the procedings by creating the "Lab" and tried to turn the place into a warm and fuzzy "hit" factory, the overall tone of the the place has deteriorated...at least on a tech level.

You could post charts and graphs or make cogent and reasonable arguments/presentations re: the folly of most things audio, but the knee-jerk reaction to them will be "I hear what I hear'...so be it.

Sometimes you get tired of talking to brick walls.

jimHJJ(...so remember kiddies, be careful what you wish for...)

Why does everything have to be a debate???? Does the fact that I don't buy into your "folly" assertion mean that there's nothing left to be said about audio from a technical standpoint?

FLZapped
09-20-2005, 06:43 AM
Why does everything have to be a debate???? Does the fact that I don't buy into your "folly" assertion mean that there's nothing left to be said about audio from a technical standpoint?


Funny, I don't see the word debate used anywhere in his writing within this thread....

-Bruce

Resident Loser
09-20-2005, 07:52 AM
...you can't spell debate without D...B...T...and anywho, as Bruce rightly pointed out, who said anything about a "debate"...and kindly remember it takes two to tango.

If you misconstrued the meaning of the word "argument" with that of of "debate" you should be more concerned with your limited mastery of the language than anything "techie" in nature.

With regard to "folly"...Your response indicates YOU have made the assumption that only things near and dear to the subjectivist heart can be considered "folly". Touchy-touchy!!! And you wonder why folks tend to be reticent. The entire premise of Hi-Fi itself can be considered a part of that domain...particularly for those whom that definition entails cramming a 100+ piece orchestra between two(or more) speakers in the average-sized listening area...now that's sheer folly.

And besides, with the popularity of MP3(in all it's lo-fi majesty) and the advent of one source transducer banks(as in the Yamaha YSP-1) it's only a matter of time before Hi-Fi(as we currently know it) has as much relevance as buggy-whips!

jimHJJ(...obviously in non-Amish applications...)

musicoverall
09-20-2005, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE=Resident Loser
If you misconstrued the meaning of the word "argument" with that of of "debate" you should be more concerned with your limited mastery of the language than anything "techie" in nature..)[/QUOTE]

I always thought normal usage took precedence over old, stodgy grammatical rules but I took your comment to heart and I looked up "debate" in the dictionary. The first definition was " to discuss opposing reasons; argue". Nothing in that definition would suggest the word "argument". Thanks for showing me the error of my ways. And my point was not that subjectivists don't debate... er... argue. My point was that some of us, even those of us with limited mastery of the English language, appreciated both sides of the debate... I mean... argument. :) And why does everything have to be a deba... um... argument anyway? Is there nothing the two sides can agree on?

It was a learning experience for me so I'm sorry to see the Lab die. I guess the objectivist POV dies with it - on this site, at least.

markw
09-20-2005, 04:15 PM
When the subject rears it's ugly head again, we'll all be back.

Nice test. What was the list price differential between the two cables under test

musicoverall
09-20-2005, 05:20 PM
When the subject rears it's ugly head again, we'll all be back.

Nice test. What was the list price differential between the two cables under test

The two I tested? I think the retail list for the Cardas was about a grand and the zip was somewhere in the $15 range for way more than I used. Probably amounts to about 40 cents a foot. I paid about half list for the Cardas. Not the most bang for the buck I ever spent but it was still worth it... to me, anyway.

markw
09-20-2005, 05:50 PM
The two I tested? I think the retail list for the Cardas was about a grand and the zip was somewhere in the $15 range for way more than I used. Probably amounts to about 40 cents a foot. I paid about half list for the Cardas. Not the most bang for the buck I ever spent but it was still worth it... to me, anyway.For that price difference I would have expected a much more conclusive difference, particularly when I recall some days you couldn't differentiate between them at all.

That's about all I have to say on this.

Resident Loser
09-21-2005, 08:17 AM
...you probably should have looked up the word I used..."argument"...but even those results may have been subject to debate...

Actually my usage needs to be taken in toto..."reasonable arguments/presentation". By strict definition a reasonable or logical argument is: "an attempt to prove the demonstration of the truth of a conclusion based on the truth of a set of premises"...

At the site www.wordiq.com/definition/Argument

...this is the prime definition and the more common one of: "a dispute, disagreement or antagonistic discussion" is way down, sixth on the list.

Of course, it depends on the source; common usage is responsible for the alteration of the true meaning of many words and phrases. An appropriate example for this venue would be the use of "burn-in" when what is actually meant is "break-in".

Since we are in the dreaded "Lab", the more technically oriented and correct definition would seem to be the more appropriate of the two as was my intention.

I tend to use the M-W website as they seem to strike a balance between what some may consider archaic and current usage.

jimHJJ(...hey, you!!!...wake up...)

musicoverall
09-21-2005, 09:15 AM
For that price difference I would have expected a much more conclusive difference, particularly when I recall some days you couldn't differentiate between them at all.

That's about all I have to say on this.

Subtle differences are... well... subtle!

I guess the main point I got out of this is that the differences were more than subtle during sighted listening and they diminished during blind testing. But they didn't disappear.

krabapple
09-28-2005, 08:58 PM
Well, some people just get tired of arguing back and forth about subjective or objective mud slinging that goes around audio discussion boards. The same discussion have been going on since the start of Internet forums. The participants might have change, but argument remain the same :)

Actually it's been going on much longer than that -- the landmark article on 'The Great Debate' by Lip****z & Vanderkooy was published in 1981 in JAES.

Recently I've been delving into back issues of JAES at my local college's engineering library, to read a lot of the classic articles. What's amusing is how little attention overall the AES writers pay to 'high end' audio beliefs and practices. They seem irredeemably focused on *practical* issues like how to better model sound for 3-D reproduction in the home, and how to relate loudspeaker measurements to listener preferences. How silly of them!

krabapple
09-28-2005, 09:05 PM
Subtle differences are... well... subtle!

I guess the main point I got out of this is that the differences were more than subtle during sighted listening and they diminished during blind testing. But they didn't disappear.


During an actual blind test, if the subject reports that he no longer hears differences between A and B that he heard before -- meaning he' s just guessing -- then the test is invalid.

If the differences didn't ;'disappear' then they were 'heard'. Whether they were likely *real* is revealed when the answers are compared to the actual, randomized order of presentation of A and B. A 17/20 correct, for example, would suggest that the difference was real (unlikely to be due to chance alone). A 13/20 would indicate that the correct answers could well have been due to chance, rather than to real difference.

Daddy3Legs
10-31-2005, 02:10 PM
F-u--c--k it, I'll post here. The bottom line when buying a car is to know what you want. Otherwise, you're buying something that you might not want, even thougfh you THINK you want it at a particular point in time known as "TIME TO PAY THE CASHIER". Don't be a fool......buy ONLY what you want!!!!

RobotCzar
12-26-2005, 12:58 PM
I hardly ever come to this forum anymore. I claimed to only want to help new audio fans resist the sea of ridiculousness in home audio information and practice. Not enough new people with a true interest in audio come hear to make this worth my while. Seems like the same people, including me, keep saying the same things over and over. No progress is ever made. Both sides need to get a life, especially the diehard and blowhard subjectivist who are "scientific" in exactly the same manner as "intelligent design" supporters are scientific.

The "hobby" is only about ego these days. Consider the critic of the iPod I recently read on the Web. He objected to the listening of music while on the go. He seemed to think, get this, that listening to music in his living room was a more natural and superior way to listen to music. He, apparently, must listen only to multitacked genre, as one might think of jazz and classical as being written for live performance (usually in a concert hall).

The point is not that one cannot appreciate recorded serious music in the home, that is the whole point of home audio, but rather that this person thinks he knows where and how one should listen to music. (The fact that he thinks that place is his living room via his audio system is simply ignorant.) Why would he think his opinion on the proper place for listening would be of use, or even interesting, to readers of his note? Maybe having everybody give their opinion is too many.

bjornb17
12-27-2005, 06:32 AM
Ooooh look a butterfly!

GMichael
12-27-2005, 06:54 AM
Ooooh look a butterfly!

I've got a net.
Chase it this way.