aftermarket power chords

[daviethek]

I am thinking about purchasing 3 aftermarket power chords. An internet site is offering 3 ft. 12 ga ptf shieldied wire with connectors that everyone seems to think are good. The price is around 100.00 each. Seems like a fair price for the products. I am not interested in replacement power cables from speaker cable companies at several hundred dollars each. Questions are: 1) Am I likely to detect any sonic upgrades from doing this and 2) 12 ga seems like an overkill in wire guage.

system

Gallo Reference III Speakers
Van Alstine Pre (ss)
Van Alstine Power (ss) 220w
Cambridge Audio 640 CD deck.
Magnum Dynalab Tuner
AQ diamondback interconnects
AQ Bedrock speaker cable.

your thoughts...... thanks, dk

[Feanor]

I am thinking about purchasing 3 aftermarket power chords. An internet site is offering 3 ft. 12 ga ptf shieldied wire with connectors that everyone seems to think are good. The price is around 100.00 each.
your thoughts...... thanks, dk
$300.00. That's 42 Naxos discs at $7 each from Archiv Music ... or 60 at $5 each if you download them as you can, or soon will be able to do.

The choice is easy for me.

[JohnMichael]

If you are not sure about the benefits I would not buy 3 at once. I use the PS Audio power punch with my Cambridge Audio Azur 640 and notice a deffinate improvement. Better dynamics and smoother sound. The cable is $49.95 from several sources such as Audio Advisor. It is very well made and even has a removeable ground plug if you develop a hum problem. I would check them out for a 12 guage power cord.

[daviethek]

If you are not sure about the benefits I would not buy 3 at once. I use the PS Audio power punch with my Cambridge Audio Azur 640 and notice a deffinate improvement. Better dynamics and smoother sound. The cable is $49.95 from several sources such as Audio Advisor. It is very well made and even has a removeable ground plug if you develop a hum problem. I would check them out for a 12 guage power cord.

solid suggestion, thikk I'll try it. thanks. dk

[pelly3s]

I would make you own power cords, some good quality 12/3 and a good quality edison plug like the Leviton ones, and a good quality IEC plug. To get the same quality of a $100 one you should be spending about $18 to $20

[Feanor]

I'm very sceptical about power cords based on my limited experience.

I tried a PS Audio Power Bunch with my Panasonic SA-XR25 "digital" receiver -- made bugger-all difference.

I made my own PCs using Wattgate connectors and Belden cable for use between the wall and my PS Audio Ultimate Outlet and between that an my Bel Canto amp -- again, there was root-of-dick-all difference.

(By the way, the Ultimate Outlet makes not perceptible difference either.)

[squeegy200]

I'm very sceptical about power cords based on my limited experience.

I tried a PS Audio Power Bunch with my Panasonic SA-XR25 "digital" receiver -- made bugger-all difference.

I made my own PCs using Wattgate connectors and Belden cable for use between the wall and my PS Audio Ultimate Outlet and between that an my Bel Canto amp -- again, there was root-of-dick-all difference.

(By the way, the Ultimate Outlet makes not perceptible difference either.)

I'm not familiar with the phrase "Bugger-all" or "root-of-dick" but I too am skeptical of the perceived benefits of power cords. If there is improvement to be found in power cords, then I would also assume wiring inside the walls and power distribution box should also be improved upon before audible improvements are realized.

Since my profession is in information technology, I encounter strict power requirements. Clean, solid, and quiet power is often found behind a UPS. ALthough i've seen some battery powered transformers running some DACs and Phono stages, why are UPSs not used for sensitive audio equipment? There are units available that could easily sustain the high amperage requirements of most amplifiers. And the cost is equivalent to some of these power stations I've observed for sale in audio retail stores.

[E-Stat]

If there is improvement to be found in power cords, then I would also assume wiring inside the walls and power distribution box should also be improved upon before audible improvements are realized.
The experience of many suggests otherwise. The "miles and miles from the substation" argument assumes the only benefit to be found relates to current. Digital devices throughout modern homes, especially nearby CD players, generate RF and inject that back into the AC line. Tune an AM radio in close proximity to your CDP. Better power cords use multiple shielding strategies and sometimes include filter networks.

The audible difference to these ears in three systems is a quieter, "darker" background where more low level details can be discerned.

rw

[pelly3s]

just a thought, if your power cord it shielded thats all nice but if the RF was leaked back into the main lines then its in the power and no shield will stop the RF. Just think all through your walls is a bunch of wire acting like an antenna sucking up any RF flying around. And all romex is is some solid core 12 or 14 gauge wire, so if that is the source of your power it is also the source of the RF interference. Consider a power conditioner and filter before new power cords. Just a power cord isnt going to help anything unless you stop the problem at the source which would involve changing the wiring in your house, or running dedicated circuits to your system with shielded cable and a power filter right at the circuit breaker, or just do the simple move and make some heavy duty power cords of your own and get a good power conditoner. And another thing make them as short as possible, I am yet to see a home amplifer which needs more than some 14/3 for power as long as you make it like about 18 inches, hell if you could make it 1 inch you could use 20/3.

[E-Stat]

just a thought, if your power cord it shielded thats all nice but if the RF was leaked back into the main lines then its in the power and no shield will stop the RF.
Reread my comments.


Consider a power conditioner and filter before new power cords.Already have two conditiioners, a Monster HTS-1000 and an HTS-3500. They're not the same with my amps.


Just a power cord isnt going to help anything unless you stop the problem at the source which would involve changing the wiring in your house...
Actually, it does. You'll find your theory lacking. Yes, I already have a clean line for the system.

rw

[Feanor]

I'm not familiar with the phrase "Bugger-all" or "root-of-dick" but ...
Sorry about that fancy language, Squeegy :)

[squeegy200]

Sorry about that fancy language, Squeegy :)


Just teasing you ;)

Question for any of you engineering types:
Any reason why there is not more applications of a UPS as a buffer/filter for incoming power? The power behind many UPS units are pure clean smooth sin wave and I'm curious as to why I don't see them more often in audiophile applications.

[Jim Wilson]

Try out the UPS before you buy one. My experience with an APC unit is that it primarily controls the AC voltage but doesn't clean up the ambient electrical disturbances that you might be experiencing.

[Chas Underhay]

I'm very sceptical about power cords based on my limited experience.

I tried a PS Audio Power Bunch with my Panasonic SA-XR25 "digital" receiver -- made bugger-all difference.

I made my own PCs using Wattgate connectors and Belden cable for use between the wall and my PS Audio Ultimate Outlet and between that an my Bel Canto amp -- again, there was root-of-dick-all difference.

(By the way, the Ultimate Outlet makes not perceptible difference either.)

I'm also a sceptic, no, a total non believer in aftermarket power chords, filters et all for the following reasons:-

1, We have been sold (so called) quality pieces of equipment. Surely that equipment has been provided at the factory with a decent power supply capable of producing adequate voltage and power to run the equipment properly.

2, Surely the manufactuer has at least a legal obligation to supply a power chord of adequate size.

3, If an exotic power chord was going to make any difference, the equipment manufacturer would have supply it as standard. After all, they would get better reviews if it did make any improvement and it would only cost them coppers.

4, What do people think is on the other side of the socket they are pluggung their exotic aftermarket power chord into. Cheap sh1t (another specialized technical term) domestic mains cable.

5, Even if the odd fanatic wires his / her power outlets in exotic grade cable back to their distribution board, there is still literally miles standard grade cable feeding heir house from the power station.

I'm too old to get caught on that one

[pelly3s]

I'm also a sceptic, no, a total non believer in aftermarket power chords, filters et all for the following reasons:-

1, We have been sold (so called) quality pieces of equipment. Surely that equipment has been provided at the factory with a decent power supply capable of producing adequate voltage and power to run the equipment properly.

2, Surely the manufactuer has at least a legal obligation to supply a power chord of adequate size.

3, If an exotic power chord was going to make any difference, the equipment manufacturer would have supply it as standard. After all, they would get better reviews if it did make any improvement and it would only cost them coppers.

4, What do people think is on the other side of the socket they are pluggung their exotic aftermarket power chord into. Cheap sh1t (another specialized technical term) domestic mains cable.

5, Even if the odd fanatic wires his / her power outlets in exotic grade cable back to their distribution board, there is still literally miles standard grade cable feeding heir house from the power station.

I'm too old to get caught on that one


Thank you

[Chas Underhay]

Thank you I'm not an electronics engineer so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong but....

It is my understanding that a quality power supply in any peice of equipment would be capable of providing a clean DC supply whatever the state (within reason) of the mains. That power supply would also be capable of storing sufficient power to deal with the worst case momentary current drain of the equipment.

It is also my understanding that fuses would start blowing long before the current draw by the equipment got anywhere near the current handling capacity of even the most basic mains cable.

I am however a mechanical engineer and as such can smell bull sh1t a mile off.

If a dealer was in the process of trying to sell me a piece of quality equipment then told me that I also needed a different mains lead or a filter, I would immediately leave the shop.

[pelly3s]

I'm not an electronics engineer so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong but....

It is my understanding that a quality power supply in any peice of equipment would be capable of providing a clean DC supply whatever the state (within reason) of the mains. That power supply would also be capable of storing sufficient power to deal with the worst case momentary current drain of the equipment.

It is also my understanding that fuses would start blowing long before the current draw by the equipment got anywhere near the current handling capacity of even the most basic mains cable.

I am however a mechanical engineer and as such can smell bull sh1t a mile off.

If a dealer was in the process of trying to sell me a piece of quality equipment then told me that I also needed a different mains lead or a filter, I would immediately leave the shop.

I agree with everything you said.

[daviethek]

Regardless of the "root of dick" results, or whatever else was reported, my original question was not about the efficacy of the tweak but rather if purchasing three after market chords was warranted. John Michael posted a good reply and I appreciate his input. I took his advice since I own similar equipment and noticed some positive results with one relatively cheap aftermarket power chord on my CD player.

I too am an engineer but I don't criticize people who drive Jaguars over Saturns even though both accomplish the same thing.

[Chas Underhay]

Regardless of the "root of dick" results, or whatever else was reported, my original question was not about the efficacy of the tweak but rather if purchasing three after market chords was warranted. John Michael posted a good reply and I appreciate his input. I took his advice since I own similar equipment and noticed some positive results with one relatively cheap aftermarket power chord on my CD player.

I too am an engineer but I don't criticize people who drive Jaguars over Saturns even though both accomplish the same thing.

Sir you asked a QUESTION; if purchasing three after market chords was warranted.

John Micheal said; NO , try one at a time and suggested a cheaper one.

Pelly3s said; NO, but suggested making your own.

Feanor said; NO, he had tried it and noticed no difference and suggested you spent the money on music instead.

I said; NO and gave some reasons why.

I call the above providing ANSWERS to your QUESTION and being helpful but it seems from your last post that you didn't want ANSWERS, you just wanted someone to agree with you.

[daviethek]

I stand corrected. In this hobby, when it comes to spending money, I'm always looking for someone to agree with me I suppose.

[Chas Underhay]

I stand corrected. In this hobby, when it comes to spending money, I'm always looking for someone to agree with me I suppose.

We are not trying to stop you spending money mate but trying to dissuade you from wasting money.

I've said on this site before that I believe a lot of aspects of hi-fi equipent and particularly cables of all descriptions are much like The Emporer's New Clothes, "only a wise man can hear the difference, to a fool it's inaudible.

If you really do think the mains lead supplied with the kit is crap then try making up a new one with decent but not exotic components as Pelly3s suggested. I agree that not all plugs and not all cable is equal but higher grade components would be more likely to provide robustness and longevity than noticeable audible improvements.

Look in a recording or broadcasting studio and see what cables they use.

[JohnMichael]

Sir you asked a QUESTION; if purchasing three after market chords was warranted.

John Micheal said; NO , try one at a time and suggested a cheaper one.

Pelly3s said; NO, but suggested making your own.

Feanor said; NO, he had tried it and noticed no difference and suggested you spent the money on music instead.

I said; NO and gave some reasons why.

I call the above providing ANSWERS to your QUESTION and being helpful but it seems from your last post that you didn't want ANSWERS, you just wanted someone to agree with you.

Just to clarify I stated I noticed an improvement with the addition of the better power chord. I also know that I also can hear differences in speaker cables and interconnects. My point was for him to try one at a time to see if it would be a benefit to him. We can be sensitive to different aspects of sound. What is musical to some might be torture for me. I know people who like bright agressive systems and after about 20 minutes I have to excuse myself. If a better cable improves the sound of your system then enjoy.

[Chas Underhay]

Just to clarify I stated I noticed an improvement with the addition of the better power chord. I also know that I also can hear differences in speaker cables and interconnects. My point was for him to try one at a time to see if it would be a benefit to him. We can be sensitive to different aspects of sound. What is musical to some might be torture for me. I know people who like bright agressive systems and after about 20 minutes I have to excuse myself. If a better cable improves the sound of your system then enjoy.

I did acknowledge that you suggested that he tried one at a time.

To be honest I have never heard any significant differences when comparing speaker cables or interconnects unless I'm comparing the adequate with the inadequate, maybe I just have cloth ears. From a technical point of view I accept that cable has different characteristics; inductance, impedance, capacitance etc however the legnths involved are normally too short to have much impact. You infer that you do not like bright agressive systems and allude that a better cable may improve it but I would suggest that it may well be a worse (high capacitance) cable that 'apparently' improves the sound by slightly attenuating the HF.

In my experience, equipment that sounds 'musical' isn't necessarilly accurate. I find that it is either particular records or very often certian tracks on records that sound bright and agressive, a similar number, to me, sound too wooly or bass heavy. Most however sound fine to my ears. I don't like bright and agressive and I don't like fat and wooly either.

The thing that makes me laugh is that I have seen adverts for £4,000 speaker cables, give me 4 grand and I'll by a pair of electrostatics and hook em up with 4mm mains wire I'll guarantee they will sound fine.

All the best

[daviethek]

I guess I'm in the camp that notices diffferences. Only recently though. For about 20 years I didn't think wire of any kind had that much effect until recently with my new system I had the "chore" of selecting speaker cable and interconnects I could live with.
I say chore because the experience got to be less than enjoyable after a while. Most economy speaker cables just got in the way of some aspect of the music or bloated one end of the spectrum a noticeable bit. When I found a pair that didn't interfere with the music, I stopped looking. I was at the 180.00 price point for the speaker wire when that happened. thank God.

As far as the power cables go, I guess I was tempted like a lot of people are, by the potential of some noticeable benefit. The sugestion to use the economy power cable upgrade on the CA CD deck was to me a good suggestion since I noticed differences in speaker cable, I thought what the hell. It was I think a good purchase. I'm certainly not going to exagerate the benefit, but I am left with the feeling that if the manufacturers should spend a few pennies more on the power chord.

[pelly3s]

My theory on power cord is pretty much this, you dont see recording studio changing the cords on the gear they have. and like I always say no matter what you play something through it cant get better than what it was recorded on

[TerryB]

I've had mixed results.

When i changed the power cord on an old portable cassette/radio to a Russ Andrews Yello, the difference was absolutely noticeable, no question about it.

But on my main system, where i have Russ Andrews hi-current Powercords throughout, i'm really not so sure they make the biggest difference in the world, maybe because the equipment is of a much higher quality to begin with and therefore less susceptible to differences in mains leads.

However! I've been advised that all of these leads WILL come into their own as and when i have a seaparate spur installed from the fusebox specifically for the hi-fi, installed with decent woven, shielded mains cable. So if the electrician who's visiting next week tells me it will be possible to do at reasonable cost, i'll let you know if this theory holds true once the work is complete!

[Chas Underhay]

When i changed the power cord on an old portable cassette/radio to a Russ Andrews Yello, the difference was absolutely noticeable, no question about it.

Quite likely that the connectors on the 'as issued' lead had oxidised and were not conducting as well as they should or possibly even periodically arcing.


But on my main system, where i have Russ Andrews hi-current Powercords throughout, i'm really not so sure they make the biggest difference in the world, maybe because the equipment is of a much higher quality to begin with and therefore less susceptible to differences in mains leads.

Correct, in fact I bet you can't really hear any difference at all, can you.



However! I've been advised that all of these leads WILL come into their own as and when i have a seaparate spur installed from the fusebox specifically for the hi-fi, installed with decent woven, shielded mains cable. So if the electrician who's visiting next week tells me it will be possible to do at reasonable cost, i'll let you know if this theory holds true once the work is complete!

For christ's sake don't get caught on that one. (see my previous posts) People spend a fortune on things like this. Once it has been done you can't directly compare it with as it was before and you will then have mental torture trying to convince yourself the sound has improved and that the expense was worthwhile. It wont make a scrap of difference!!!!

Either save the money or if it is burning a hole in your pocket go to your music store and buy a load more records and CDs, or take your wife, girlfriend, secretary, somebody else's wife away for a slap up dirty weekend. Much more fun!

[TerryB]

Chas you might be right, but when the UK's Mark Levinson official engineer lists this as basically his number one upgrade, i for one will give him the benefit of the doubt!! Sure, if it's going to cost £500 or more then forget it, but if it's say £100 plus the cable to do, well what the hell - it can't be any worse, assuming the electrician knows what he's doing!!

[Chas Underhay]

Chas you might be right, but when the UK's Mark Levinson official engineer lists this as basically his number one upgrade, i for one will give him the benefit of the doubt!! Sure, if it's going to cost £500 or more then forget it, but if it's say £100 plus the cable to do, well what the hell - it can't be any worse, assuming the electrician knows what he's doing!!

Terry, I am very suprised that the UK's Mark Levinson "official engineer"??? lists this as basically his number one upgrade because Mark Levinson himself will be fitting high quality power supplies that will allow his equipment to function correctly what ever the state of the mains supply. That's what you pay the money for!

[Chas Underhay]

Terry, If you already have Levinson kit it's like buying an Bentley Continental GT then thinking you can buy bits from Halfords to make it better.

[TerryB]

Chas i'd suggest your analogy is *precisely* what i'm doing now - ie using a Bentley Continental on low grade fuel, when the premium option is sitting in the pump ready to be used!! Why assume that the standard mains ring, with all the other plugged-in bits and pieces, is adequate for a high performance audio system? To me it's a no-lose option. From what Mark was saying, it's like having the sort of power input that we're all used to late at night, at ALL times of the day. The reason Levinson provide nonsense power cords is that they realise that the vast majority of users will want to use their own mains leads, and that including one of comparable quality would just add another several hundred pounds unnecessarily. Let me know if you'd like Mark's number to discuss it further. Alternatively, Heatherdale Audio, the UK Levinson main agent, will echo his sentiments. Mains quality is a very subjective thing, obviously, especially as it's something you can't "see", but i certainly don't think it should be overlooked as a given, unalterable, non-improvable element of any system.

Tel

[Chas Underhay]

Chas i'd suggest your analogy is *precisely* what i'm doing now - ie using a Bentley Continental on low grade fuel, when the premium option is sitting in the pump ready to be used!!

That argument isn't technically correct Terry, the higher grade fuel would have higher calorific value than the low grade fuel and would therefore yeild greater power per given volume than the low grade fuel.

What we are talking about here is 240VAC 50Hz plus a little RF noise and the odd spike. That is a constant and a good power supply would sort it out, no problem.

What people are suggesting to you is that you will improve the calorific value of the fuel and hence the performance of your Bentley by the petrol station upgrading their petrol pump.

Also when people try to tell you that these oversized and overpriced power leads make improvements it is effectively telling you that if the petrol pump has an oversized hose and you can fill your tank up quicker, said Bentley will go faster!!!! That's the real reason why Levinson only supply normal power leads.

But it's your money mate.

[TerryB]

Although i'm no expert, i think the extent of what they're suggesting is that you'll maximise the potential of the mains supply, not actually gain something that isn't already there, rather than rely on the building regulations quality stuff they build houses with. Associated with a lack of interference from other electrical items, it adds up to a better, more consistent supply. But sure, if i spend the cash and think "what's all that about then" i'll be straight back on the phone telling him what a waste of money it's been!! We shall see...

[MCH]

Quote:
My theory on power cord is pretty much this, you dont see recording studio changing the cords on the gear they have. and like I always say no matter what you play something through it cant get better than what it was recorded on

Bravo. Common sense makes my music sound good. Of all the components in the music chain, I put most of the emphasis (money) on speakers.

[Chas Underhay]

Terry, Why dont you start by just compring the 'as issued' Levinson lead with the 'aftermarket' lead. If you can really hear a difference, then fine. If you can't, that should arouse your suspicion.

Next try just running the stereo and switching everything else in the house off and see if that really makes any difference. If it does, I would be straight on to the Levinson factory asking them why they had charged me so much for a piece of kit with a crap power supply.

After that do phone the Levinson factory (not their UK witchdoctor) and ask them why they have provided such a cheap and nasty power lead with their high quality equipment. I wouldn't mind betting they tell you that their lead is all that is required.

Also remember that once you have bought and installed your new wiring system, you won't be able to remove it and get a full refund for both the cable and the labour will you.

All the best

[TerryB]

Yeas i hear what you're saying, but what THEY are saying is that you're still then limited by what the existing, "adequate" grade domestic mains ring can deliver, so even giving it the best possible chance as you've described above, still won't produce any noticeable difference. They argue that if the mains ring itself is upgraded, then improvements in the mains cabling from the socket onwards will be worthwhile. And i won't prove that until i try it!!

[Chas Underhay]

Terry, who is THEY?? I can't believe it is the Levinson factory.

[Bernd]

I've had mixed results.

When i changed the power cord on an old portable cassette/radio to a Russ Andrews Yello, the difference was absolutely noticeable, no question about it.

But on my main system, where i have Russ Andrews hi-current Powercords throughout, i'm really not so sure they make the biggest difference in the world, maybe because the equipment is of a much higher quality to begin with and therefore less susceptible to differences in mains leads.

However! I've been advised that all of these leads WILL come into their own as and when i have a seaparate spur installed from the fusebox specifically for the hi-fi, installed with decent woven, shielded mains cable. So if the electrician who's visiting next week tells me it will be possible to do at reasonable cost, i'll let you know if this theory holds true once the work is complete!

Hi Terry,

I read your post with interest. Just take this on board, if you run a separete spur for your rig then you need to have the cable of the quality of your power cords. Otherwise why do it?
I use the new Kimber PK range (the green ones can't remember the number) and have installed an Isotek Titan which worked out cheaper than a run with Kimber cable and I am sure does make more of a difference.
Just my 0.02ct worth.

Peace

Bernd

I rather have my mind opened to wonder than closed by belief

What's playing: Eric Clapton-Unplugged

[Chas Underhay]

I rather have my mind opened to wonder than closed by belief.

I'm more than happy to have my mind opened to wonder but I require irrefutable concrete evedence before I'll open my wallet.

[Bernd]

I'm more than happy to have my mind opened to wonder but I require irrefutable concrete evedence before I'll open my wallet.

Well said. My last upgrades were only bought after a pair of tests with some fantastic instruments-My ears!!

Peace

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

Well said. My last upgrades were only bought after a pair of tests with some fantastic instruments-My ears!!

Peace

Bernd

I've made upgrades using very similar test equipment but that has been things like quality MC cartridges rather than jumped up kettle leads.

All the best

Chas

[SoundGuyDave]

Don't waste your money. Are you going to change all the wiring in your house and the miles of cabling from your house to the power plant?

[pelly3s]

SoundGuyDave is right. You cant improve on the signal coming in from the street its impossible. MCH I am glad you like my theory. I have built and also worked in many major studios and the only power cord I changed was the 14/3 IEC cable going into the supply on an SSL 4000G+ only because it wasnt long enough.

[hermanv]

The whole power cord idea is certainly hard to believe. All that wire from the substation to your house, from your breaker to your outlet, suddenly that last 5 feet is the path to Nirvana?

Now having said that, I felt the same way about exotic cables, I heard no difference at least right up to the point where I was able to afford a much more exotic system. Now I hear all kinds of differences in the various cables. I have spent real money (drat, damn, can't be) because unfortunately the more expensive interconnects and speaker cables sounded better.

I am afriad to try exotic power cords, too close to magic or too big an impact on the wallet if they work (ignorance is bliss in this case).

My point is that these things must be done in balance, if you have the financial resources to purchase $20,000 electronics boxes or speakers then you will find exotic cables are pretty near manadatory to realize the full capabilities of these devices. On the other hand if you're a mere mortal with a $500 receiver it makes no sense to buy $800 worth of wire, the wire is not your weakest link.

Putting Pirrelli tires on a Volkswagon Van will not make it a race car, putting Grand Auto 4 for $200 tires on your Ferrari will probably kill you on the first mountain turn. Balance is the key. :)

[Bernd]

I've made upgrades using very similar test equipment but that has been things like quality MC cartridges rather than jumped up kettle leads.

All the best

Chas
Hi Chas,

Good to know you use the same test equipment.I will say that adding the Isotek Titan into my sysyem made a difference.I don't go for Snake oil at all but if something works it works.

All the best to you too

Bernd

[TerryB]

Chas - "they" are Heatherdale, Levinson's engineer and (unsurprisingly) Russ Andrews.

Bernd - yes, there's no point running a separate spur unless it's via a decent mains cable. I won't skimp in that respect, don't worry!

SoundGuyDave - the point is this. What i have coming into my house is apparently MORE than adequate to nuclear blast a stereo system, but once it's transported around the house via various switches, fuseboxes etc via inferior quality wire, it has lost that potential. Runnning a separate spur is supposed to overcome these drains. But like i say (again), i'm not here to sell the idea, i have no idea if it will work or not, but the calibre of the people who have told me it will (and they're NOT witchdoctors, lol), is enough to convince me to take the chance. That's what this hobby is all about after all - messing about and trying new things. I don't really want to reach the stage where i don't have the enthusiasm to get involved like this!!

[Chas Underhay]

Chas - "they" are Heatherdale, Levinson's engineer and (unsurprisingly) Russ Andrews.

Terry, I suggest that before you do go ahead, you phone the Levinson factory and see what they recommend. If their kit is as good as it is supposed to be, it would work perfectly well when connected to the dirtiest, filthiest mains supply imaginable. That what good power supplies do.

all the best

Chas

[TerryB]

As i've said several times now, this comes from the bloke who does all the repairs and servicing to Levinson products in the UK. He *knows* what he's doing, and he has nothing to gain personally from advocating this, in fact only putting his reputation at risk. We've established that you're sceptical - fine. Let's just leave it there and i'll tell you *first-hand* in a few months whether it was a waste of time or not, and believe me, if it is, i'll say so.

Tel

[Bernd]

As i've said several times now, this comes from the bloke who does all the repairs and servicing to Levinson products in the UK. He *knows* what he's doing, and he has nothing to gain personally from advocating this, in fact only putting his reputation at risk. We've established that you're sceptical - fine. Let's just leave it there and i'll tell you *first-hand* in a few months whether it was a waste of time or not, and believe me, if it is, i'll say so.

Tel
Good on you Terry,
Looking forward for an update.
Good Luck

Bernd

[E-Stat]

I am afriad to try exotic power cords, too close to magic or too big an impact on the wallet if they work (ignorance is bliss in this case).
Whatever you do, DO NOT audition Kimber Palladians or Harmonic Technology Magics in your system. You'll be sorry! ;)

rw

[daviethek]

Lots of interest in the subject. I am happy with the relatively cheap PS Audio aftermarket job on my CD player ( 49.00 us). Slight improvement in sound separation and quietness. What I should have done is just to buy the 13/3 wire and get some hospital grade connectors and make my own as sugggested here.

The forces of suppy,demand and criticism (technical sobriety checks) should hopefully keep the cost of this tweak under control a little more than the speaker wire explosion. It looks like a DIY project for the average power cord be cone without soldering for about 30.00 using very good wire and hospital grade connectors. Performance may be as good as the very expensive cables and the hobbyst can make them, put them in and not fret about slight improvements from more expensive units ( like I did on speaker cable).

[hermanv]

I have suspected for some time that I may need to finance expensive power cords, so fairly soon I will give them an honest audition.

Does anyone have experience or an opinion (yep, here I go aking for it, think I'd know better by now) about the relative merits of spending money for power cords (hundreds of $$ is easy) vs spending money for a dedicated run from the main panel breaker to the system. 'Course we'd go with the hospital outlets and good distribution box. Seems the two costs could be comparable. Eventually, I plan on doing both, but I am one of those unlucky folks that must dribble out my limited finances in a controlled fashion.

And a related question, there is a strong temptation to make my own fancy cords, connectors and wire are pretty easy to aquire but has anyone really listened to the difference on a first class system (No mine isn't truly first class but it makes a solid second class, and I hope to continously improve it)

As I get more experience in this hobby, I'm kind of determined to not repeat expenses and upgrades in a small step wise fashion like I did early on when I couldn't believe that good sound could cost that much. I could have saved some money by skipping a lot of intermediate steps (not that I wasn't told this) but who can believe this stuff?

[Chas Underhay]

Sounds like you didn't quite get the improvement you were expecting Davie but making your own with decent connectors is a reasonable comprimise. I normally make my own and I use decent connectors and that rubber insulated cable that is used for some power tools and make them as short as possible. Sonic improvements? no, but the rubber cable is more flexible than the PVC stuff and generally nicer to use.

I can understand the debate with signal cables although I am not going there but with power cables I see it like this; AC mains is fed from a power station at very high voltage. before it gets to you it is transformed down several times then fed to your house at domestic voltage. It is beyond anyones control. Mains voltage is then fed onto the mains transformers of the power supplies of each item of electronic equipment. the voltage is then transformed either up or down depending on whether the equipment is valve or solid state then rectified smoothed, filtered and stored as pure DC. The better the power supply, the purer the DC and more of it. With a good power supply you could flick the switch off and on again and not hear it.

If you spoke to the designer of a of high quality power supply and suggested that you could improve the performance of that power supply by changing the incoming mains cable expect either myrth or anger. If he agreed, go and find someone who can design proper power supplies.

If any connection is critical, it's not the AC supply to the power supply but the DC connection between the power supply and the equipment.

Anybody who thinks he can hear the difference between mains leads really should have gone to more live gigs, then he would sometimes have trouble telling whether the mains lead is plugged in at all. They have probably still got all their dinky cars in their boxes as well

[JohnMichael]

Lots of interest in the subject. I am happy with the relatively cheap PS Audio aftermarket job on my CD player ( 49.00 us). Slight improvement in sound separation and quietness. What I should have done is just to buy the 13/3 wire and get some hospital grade connectors and make my own as sugggested here.

The forces of suppy,demand and criticism (technical sobriety checks) should hopefully keep the cost of this tweak under control a little more than the speaker wire explosion. It looks like a DIY project for the average power cord be cone without soldering for about 30.00 using very good wire and hospital grade connectors. Performance may be as good as the very expensive cables and the hobbyst can make them, put them in and not fret about slight improvements from more expensive units ( like I did on speaker cable).

I will be interested in reading any improvements from a home made power cable. My experience is based on my integrated amp and I hope you try a cable for your amp and report back to us. Are you considering any shield techniques that some power cables employ?
I also need to ask Chas about the point of concerts compared to what you hear at home. I am also a little curious about dinky cars in their boxes. Odd reference.

[daviethek]

I'm not planning on doing anything with the power amp cord because it is still under warranty by some slightly crabby guy up in Minnesota who would have my head for such a thing. I have changed out the plug on my Tuner (MagDYN FT101) top a hospital grade plug and I noticed an improvement. Unfortunately I also buffed up the RCA outputs on the back of the unit at the same time and I suspect the sound improvement came only from the cleaner connecton points, which made me think about cleaning my stuff more regularly.

[Chas Underhay]

I also need to ask Chas about the point of concerts compared to what you hear at home. I am also a little curious about dinky cars in their boxes. Odd reference.

I'll tell you the point, my ears are 51 years old. Over the last 35 years or so, I've probably played too loud, too young, too often and been to far too many loud gigs. Still go to about two or three a month. Add to this, the other manly pleasuers like shooting and fishing. Fishing? yep, having to sit over big diesels on my fishing boat for hours on end and don't forget the wife nagging. Now in my opinion, that all adds up to over 35 years of worthwhile use not abuse but all of these things take their toll on your shell likes.

My passing interest in sound reproduction is to be able to play and get a half way decent sound out of my accumulation (the word collection would give a wrong and probably nerdish impression) of music mostly on LPs and some on CDs.

The recording quality on quite a few of my records is absolute cr*p but when you get something like Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker (before Eric appeared) with Graham Bond and Dick Heckstall-Smith, you really do want to hear what they were playing. I've got things like unrealeased studio takes from Coleman Hawkins, I want to hear it

I am fully aware that to get decent results you need decent kit but mine is just bog standard, working man's studio grade stuff and some of that is pretty old now. If I thought I could make it any better by buying £100 worth of cables I would try it but in reality it is only something like yet another grands worth of cartridge that actually works.

When I look at this site I do often wonder whether people really want to reproduce music accurately to listen to and enjoy or whether they just want to own some sort of expensive train set substitute to impress their friends.

On a completely different note; Davie, I would say it was probably cleaning the connectors that gave you the improvement. When you make up leads do use decent (industrial quality not exotic) cable and connectors but as I have aid before, I dont believe it will ultimately improve sound but it will provide a more robust and corrosion resistant lead.

[Bernd]

I'll tell you the point, my ears are 51 years old. Over the last 35 years or so, I've probably played too loud, too young, too often and been to far too many loud gigs. Still go to about two or three a month. Add to this, the other manly pleasuers like shooting and fishing. Fishing? yep, having to sit over big diesels on my fishing boat for hours on end and don't forget the wife nagging. Now in my opinion, that all adds up to over 35 years of worthwhile use not abuse but all of these things take their toll on your shell likes.

My passing interest in sound reproduction is to be able to play and get a half way decent sound out of my accumulation (the word collection would give a wrong and probably nerdish impression) of music mostly on LPs and some on CDs.

The recording quality on quite a few of my records is absolute cr*p but when you get something like Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker (before Eric appeared) with Graham Bond and Dick Heckstall-Smith, you really do want to hear what they were playing. I've got things like unrealeased studio takes from Coleman Hawkins, I want to hear it

I am fully aware that to get decent results you need decent kit but mine is just bog standard, working man's studio grade stuff and some of that is pretty old now. If I thought I could make it any better by buying £100 worth of cables I would try it but in reality it is only something like yet another grands worth of cartridge that actually works.

When I look at this site I do often wonder whether people really want to reproduce music accurately to listen to and enjoy or whether they just want to own some sort of expensive train set substitute to impress their friends.

On a completely different note; Davie, I would say it was probably cleaning the connectors that gave you the improvement. When you make up leads do use decent (industrial quality not exotic) cable and connectors but as I have aid before, I dont believe it will ultimately improve sound but it will provide a more robust and corrosion resistant lead.

Hi Chas,

Good to read your post. I am 44 and also like shooting (goes with my job) also go to a couple of gigs a month. Therefore my ears have also been used extensivley. I have however a passion for really good clean reproduced sound and that costs a small fortune. Due to circumstance I had do downgeade a couple of times and also I still enjoyed the gist of the music I did look for more.Isn't it strange that we can listen in the car with all that noise and enjoy a really good track just the same. I guess subconsciously we listen differently how the situation demands it. I think our brain fils in the missing bits if there is too much noise, but at home in a quiet room we listen for different things but with the same enjoyment (for me anyway). I actually dislike going shopping and buying new things for the Rig. And only will do it if I think it is absolutley necessary.

Hope you all had a good weekend

Peace

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

Hi Chas,

Good to read your post. I am 44 and also like shooting (goes with my job) also go to a couple of gigs a month. Therefore my ears have also been used extensivley. I have however a passion for really good clean reproduced sound and that costs a small fortune. Due to circumstance I had do downgeade a couple of times and also I still enjoyed the gist of the music I did look for more.Isn't it strange that we can listen in the car with all that noise and enjoy a really good track just the same. I guess subconsciously we listen differently how the situation demands it. I think our brain fils in the missing bits if there is too much noise, but at home in a quiet room we listen for different things but with the same enjoyment (for me anyway). I actually dislike going shopping and buying new things for the Rig. And only will do it if I think it is absolutley necessary.

Hope you all had a good weekend

Peace

Bernd

Hi Bernd

Like the sound of your job, unless of course, you have to put up with some b*gger shooting back. Yes good weekend thanks, hope yours was too.

I think you and I pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet as far as music reproduction is concerned.

In my opinion ther are many variables in sound reproduction and in many cases these do not get fully addressed and statements are made that do not hold water. As a typical example recent post read something like "modern quipment is now so good that we can reproduce the nuances of live music". What live music???????? Unless you go to small venues and listen only to acoustic music (ancient or modern) you are almost invariably listening to reproduced music via a PA system. I went to a Byrd and Tallis concert a year or so ago but it was a big venue (wasn't thinking when I booked the tickets) and the choir was miked so the sound wasn't as good as I'm used to at home. Still enjoyed it though.

I know that recording quality is quite variable, even on 1 LP there can be tracks that are harsh and others that are fat and wooly so what do we make judgements on.

I don't believe that there are many people around (and certianly not over the age of about 16) that can hear the things that some of the HI FI reviewers say they can. People are told that X is better than Y and they go and listen but they can't really hear any difference but because the reviewer said it's better they stop trusting their own ears and start listening for things that just aren't there. They are also frightened that the snotty nosed kid of a salesman will think they have got cloth ears so they buy it, take it home and listen intently in the hope that one day they will eventually hear it and it will be like a religeous expreience. These people stopped listening to music years ago, they only ever buy audiophile recordings and just listen to the nuances.

A lot of the statements made by a well known UK cable guru are questionable to say the least.You know my opinion on what power supplies do by now so I don't want to go over that again but suppose you did want a better that standard mains supply to your equipment, forget the cable guru's way with expensive plugs and sockets, this is the engineers way:

1. Get a second consumer unit with space for sufficient circiut breakers for all of your components plus a few spares.
2. Buy a set of breakers to suit the ratings of your equipment or at least the cable used.
3. Have the second consumer unit connected by the electricity supply supply company directly to the incoming main fuse.
4. Run seperate cables from each breaker out out to a suitable connector for each item of equipment.

This way we have got rid all of the interfaces; wall sockets, switches, plugs and fuses and cable connections. Sound far fetched, shouldn't do becuase that is exactly how power is distributed on boats. You couldn't afford to have all of those connectors in a marine environment because of corrosion.

Now let's sit back and see how long it is before some one tries it.

Of course, if you wanted to really be a purist you could open up your equipment, dispense with the mains connectors altogether Bypass the equipment power switch and fuses then solder the mains cable straight on the the primary side of the transformer.

All the best

Chas

[Bernd]

Hi Chas,
Yes good weekend here too. Nobody shoot back (birds and guns-don't like the sound of that) at least until now.
You described it right with the power issue. I am not that "commited". I do have however a spur only for the Audio Equipment. That will do for me. Hope I am not disqualified for that lack of effort.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

this is the engineers way:

1. Get a second consumer unit with space for sufficient circiut breakers for all of your components plus a few spares.
2. Buy a set of breakers to suit the ratings of your equipment or at least the cable used.
3. Have the second consumer unit connected by the electricity supply supply company directly to the incoming main fuse.
4. Run seperate cables from each breaker out out to a suitable connector for each item of equipment.
Only those engineers who are unfamiliar with RFI. Such is caused by among other things, the CDP a couple of feet away from the amplification that will happily amplify the "tizzy" brightness imparted. I have two dedicated mains sourcing my main system and find that some aftermarket cords lower the noise level and allow for higher low level resolution.

YMMV...

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Only those engineers who are unfamiliar with RFI.rw????????

If you have no faith in the designer of your fine equipment being able to suppress RFI, you can buy suppressor chokes that clip around cables for about 2 bucks a time.

I would have thought the likes of Krell and Levinson would also know about that. Wouldn't you??

[Chas Underhay]

the CDP a couple of feet away from the amplification that will happily amplify the "tizzy" brightness imparted.rw

E stat, by that do you mean your CD player a couple of feet away from the amplification?

If so it is likely to be interferance radiating from the amplifier's mains transformer so put your power amps on the floor, where they belong; dirty filthy things.

[E-Stat]

If you have no faith in the designer of your fine equipment being able to suppress RFI, you can buy suppressor chokes that clip around cables for about 2 bucks a time.
My comments are based upon experience, not faith. If it were only as simple as purchasing two buck chokes as you speculate...


I would have thought the likes of Krell and Levinson would also know about that. Wouldn't you??
I can't speak for those companies because I don't own their gear. Having spoken to Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT and Luke Manley of VTL, however, both acknowledge the value of aftermarket cords. The former provides his equipment without a cord and the latter, cheapo cords so that the user can choose the one that works best in his or her system.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

My comments are based upon experience, not faith. If it were only as simple as purchasing two buck chokes as you speculate...


I can't speak for those companies because I don't own their gear. Having spoken to Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT and Luke Manley of VTL, however, both acknowledge the value of aftermarket cords. The former provides his equipment without a cord and the latter, cheapo cords so that the user can choose the one that works best in his or her system.

rw

When someone can analyse by fundamental scientific, physical or electronic theory exactly what a piece of wire can do, irrespective of the materials of construction, that a handful of electronic components can't, then I'll believe it.

Remember that guitarists, for example can cheaply buy a device (I think it's called a pod)(and have been able to for some time) that can imitate practically any classic combo going then it would also be possible to digitally model the effect of mains cables if there actually was one. But food for thought.

[E-Stat]

E stat, by that do you mean your CD player a couple of feet away from the amplification?
Yes. It is the component on the bottom shelf. That is true of most systems, no? Do you put yours in another room? And the ICs are shielded likewise for the same reason. I keep them short for other audible reasons.


If so it is likely to be interferance radiating from the amplifier's mains transformer so put your power amps on the floor, where they belong; dirty filthy things.
Done that too with the monoblocks. Actually, the villain is the digital CD source, not the power amp. The amp happily amplifies all the nasty RFI it encounters either airborne or through the AC line. That's the point!

Theory works great when you fully understand the problem.


http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/audio/pic.jpg

rw

[E-Stat]

When someone can analyse by fundamental scientific, physical or electronic theory exactly what a piece of wire can do, irrespective of the materials of construction, that a handful of electronic components can't, then I'll believe it.
Ok, EE 101 teaches that wires are quite effective antennae. Better still, listen to a good system using effective RF shielding and hear for yourself so you don't have to rely upon theory to guide your opinion.


Remember that guitarists, for example can cheaply buy a device (I think it's called a pod)(and have been able to for some time) that can imitate practically any classic combo going then it would also be possible to digitally model the effect of mains cables if there actually was one. But food for thought.
The object is to reduce spurious radio frequency noise generated by digital devices. You cannot eliminate that with EQ or a synthesizer.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Ok, EE 101 teaches that wires are quite effective antennae. Better still, listen to a good system using effective RF shielding and hear for yourself so you don't have to rely upon theory to guide your opinion.


The object is to reduce spurious radio frequency noise generated by digital devices. You cannot eliminate that with EQ or a synthesizer.

rw

I know that wire and practically all other metallic objects act as antennae and we know we have no control what so ever over the miles on distribution cable from the power station but are you seriously trying to tell me that the only way to get rid of that interferance is by a short piece of exotic wire rather than electronic components and good power supply circiut design.

Impressive looking kit though E-stat but with your components being that close to your speakers, I may go as far as to diagnose that you could be suffering from a minor case of microphony, particularly if your amps are bottle jobs.

My kit is all in the same room but the speakers are about twenty feet away from the rest of the kit (good 'eavy speaker cable is used) also my 'equipment rack' is several tons of masonary, a disused chimney breast.

[E-Stat]

...are you seriously trying to tell me that the only way to get rid of that interferance is by a short piece of exotic wire rather than electronic components and good power supply circiut design.
Increasingly, more companies are putting more effective RF trapping strategies in their products. "Good" power supply design alone does not solve the issue. You cannot get away from the notion, however, that there is an AC cord attached to the components. The filtering goes both ways, too. These cords are specifically designed to prevent "backflow" into the mains as well.


Impressive looking kit though E-stat but with your components being that close to your speakers, I may go as far as to diagnose that you could be suffering from a minor case of microphony, particularly if your amps are bottle jobs.
The photo lacks some perspective as the U-1s are eight feet away from the amps. Most of my listening is done at low levels so I doubt microphony is at fault. How would a power cord minimize it if that were the case?


My kit is all in the same room but the speakers are about twenty feet away from the rest of the kit (good 'eavy speaker cable is used) also my 'equipment rack' is several tons of masonary, a disused chimney breast.
Weren't we talking about proximity between the CDP and amplifier? That is one of the problems power cords addresses. A twenty foot run of my speaker cable would cost me another $900.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Increasingly, more companies are putting more effective RF trapping strategies in their products. "Good" power supply design alone does not solve the issue. You cannot get away from the notion, however, that there is an AC cord attached to the components. The filtering goes both ways, too. These cords are specifically designed to prevent "backflow" into the mains as well.

RFI is not a new discovery, the text below is a very brief exctract of the list of additional requirements from one of my old specifications for some control equipment:

• Electrical safety certificate
• Year 2000 Compliance statement
• Input/output Verification test results
• Certification in accordance with CE requirements of immunity to radio frequency and electromagnetic interference.

The reference to Y2k compliance gives some clue as to the date.

I would be as bold as to say that the problem of interferance between your CD player is either a defective component or a design fault.


The photo lacks some perspective as the U-1s are eight feet away from the amps. Most of my listening is done at low levels so I doubt microphony is at fault. How would a power cord minimize it if that were the case?rw

Ever considered that the physical properties of a power lead could have some small impact upon the the resonance of a chassis.


A twenty foot run of my speaker cable would cost me another $900.rw

Doesn't have to, I doubt if the cables used in recording the music in the first place cost that much.

[E-Stat]

RFI is not a new discovery..
Who said that it was?


I would be as bold as to say that the problem of interferance between your CD player is either a defective component or a design fault.
If that's the case, then virtually all CD players including some really nice ones like the Burmester 969/970, Blue Note, EMM Labs, all share the same design fault. :)



Ever considered that the physical properties of a power lead could have some small impact upon the the resonance of a chassis.
Ok.


Doesn't have to, I doubt if the cables used in recording the music in the first place cost that much.
Well since the speaker cables are not in the recording chain, it wouldn't matter would it? The better studios (and I) prefer to use better than zip cord.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

If that's the case, then virtually all CD players including some really nice ones like the Burmester 969/970, Blue Note, EMM Labs, all share the same design fault. :)rw

There are quite strict regulations for radiation of and susceptability to RF and EM interferance so I'm quite supprised by this.

Without being there and being able to conduct a few tests I am somewhat in the dark but let's investigate what you say about your CD player apparently sending out large ammounts of either RF or EM interferance. You say it affects your power amps, OK fine. Now does this interferance show up on your phono stage? If the CD player is the rogue component the phono stage would be the item that "should" be most susceptable as it will be amplifying about 0.5mv upto 0.5v. Have you tried these two in close proximity? Have you tried a different power amp? Leads are not the way to cure RF problems I'm quite prepared to believe that there may be some small impact but you are treating the spots rather that the desease.

You will be able to draw your own conclusions from the result.


Well since the speaker cables are not in the recording chain, it wouldn't matter would it? The better studios (and I) prefer to use better than zip cord.rw

Recording Chain? No. But they would have used speakers for monitoring the recording and if the recording had been EQd to sound OK on equipment that sounded for example, bright, the recording when played back on good neutral equipment would sound dull.

Please consider that those marvelous analogue recordings of the late fifties through to the early eighties that everybody loves (of course I don't mean all, I mean the good ones) were made using ordinary working man's equipment, no exotic components, no exotic cables and no fancy effects.

All the best and hoping you cure your problem

[E-Stat]

There are quite strict regulations for radiation of and susceptability to RF and EM interferance so I'm quite supprised by this.
"Strict" is a relative word. Here's a quick test for you: Place any CDP near an AM radio tuned off station and you will HEAR the interference. Even my battery powered portable Sony Walkman that complies with "Part 15 of the FCC Rules" causes this interference. Maybe the manufacturers have to build UK specific units that are more stringent. Dunno.



Now does this interferance show up on your phono stage?... Have you tried these two in close proximity?
Sure. I use a low output moving coil cartridge with a 0.25 output which would make my system more sensitive to such. That's one of the reasons I turn the CDP off ! More specifically, the IEC power cord for the CDP is also shared with the turntable. Their use is thus mutually exclusive.



Have you tried a different power amp?
Sure. My Threshold Stasis in a different system with a different CDP (Pioneer Elite PD-54) likewise benefits with a lower noise floor using an aftermarket cord. I have two reviewer friends who have run quite a few components through their systems and have found the same result. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than eight Nordost Valhalla cords in his primary system. Slightly more in his killer multi-channel / AV system. This is not an isolated "problem" with my CDP.



Recording Chain? No. But they would have used speakers for monitoring the recording and if the recording had been EQd to sound OK on equipment that sounded for example, bright, the recording when played back on good neutral equipment would sound dull.
There are a couple of considerations here. Zip cord is insufficient to resolve some of the detail to which I refer. The engineers just EQ the result to whatever they want. The effect is subtle - I'm not suggesting that these are night and day differences, just audible.



Please consider that those marvelous analogue recordings of the late fifties through to the early eighties that everybody loves (of course I don't mean all, I mean the good ones) were made using ordinary working man's equipment, no exotic components, no exotic cables and no fancy effects.
Everything is relative. While I enjoy a number of RCA Living Stereo recordings from the 50s, better exists today. The relevant consideration is that the sins are cumulative. I'm not particularly impressed with the ultimate resolution of most "pro" gear anyway.



All the best and hoping you cure your problem
Thanks, but there is no "problem" to cure. Only an issue that is nicely addressed by the cords.

You might find these comments from GamuT's chief engineer concerning this topic interesting:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=82382&highlight=lund+E-Stat&session=

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Oh well looks like I'll just have to keep my old Brit kit going, this modern stuff looks far too highly strung for me. I want pleasure not pain.

[TerryB]

Marvellous. I changed the power c(h)ord on my PSL330 to a Wattgate 350 termintaed high current PowerKord and the sound is definitely yet another notch up the sweetness scale. Without a doubt.

Oh how i *wish* this wasn't the case, for Chas's sake if nothing else... ;)

Tel

[Chas Underhay]

Several posts ago I made this statement "When someone can analyse by fundamental scientific, physical or electronic theory exactly what a piece of wire can do, irrespective of the materials of construction, that a handful of electronic components can't, then I'll believe it".

So far I've been told things like it reduces noise floor, it adds sweetness, noise from rectifiers goes back throuh the transformer back up the mains lead etc etc.

What I am saying to you audiophiles is fine, you've told me what you perceive now go and connect up some test equipment and measure it. And don't tell me you able to hear things you can't measure because that's b*ll*cks (Anglo Saxon technical term) You can't hear the output from a MC cartridge untill you have amplified it many times but can measure it's properties easily.

So far I've yet to see a single performance claim for cables that included a technical specification or a reference to any physical unit and quantity thereof.

E-Stat, if your cable has reduced the noise floor, measure the improvement. has it gone down from -100dB to -103dB? I really would like someone to measure it and tell me.

Millions of people believe in life after death and have done for thousands of years. Wonderful thought, I'm sure it gives people a lot of comfort and very good luck to them but no one has ever been able to prove it. So therefore untill someone does, I'll presume this is the only chance I'm going to get and try make the best of it.

[TerryB]

Ah, so it's all about empirical measurement, i see.

Ok, try this.

Phone up the customer services department of B&W - Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world.

Talk to him about the mid range centre cone on the Nautilus 801/2. In their OWN words, the aluminium one works (ie sounds) better that the plastic one, EVEN THOUGH they cannot measure any difference using monitoring equipment. Their words, not mine. Phone them, ask. And i've owned 802, and it's provable time and time again, with blindfolds, whatever you want.

Open your mind, Chas, the human ear is one of the most sensitive measuring devices ever created. I don't listen for test results, i listen for music. Which i find helps.

Tel

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, if your cable has reduced the noise floor, measure the improvement. has it gone down from -100dB to -103dB? I really would like someone to measure it and tell me.
Did you read the analysis by Ole Lund Christensen I linked to? Did you try the experiment with an AM radio where anyone with any CDP can hear the RF interference?

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Did you read the analysis by Ole Lund Christensen I linked to?rw

Yes, hence the reference to noise from rectifiers moving back through the transformer.


Did you try the experiment with an AM radio where anyone with any CDP can hear the RF interference?rw

Didn't need to it's a radio tuner for Christ's sake, that is exactly what I would expect to happen. If you bought any marine instrument, the handbook would state minimum mounting distances from radio equipment and compasses. This isn't new stuff

I can fully understand why some people may prefer the sound of a Bosendorfer to a Stienway or visa versa and I am fully aware that would not necessarily be definable in a technically measurable sense, I'm not that bl00dy pedantic.

However statements have been made regarding things like reduction in noise floor; now that would easily be measurable.

Noise from rectifiers moving back through transformers would ,if it occours be both measurable and correctable.

I've heard things like cables reducing RFI; that would easily be measurable.

People have made statements about cable not passing sufficient detail; well if it doesn't it's probably some form of attenuation which would be measurable.

If you look at RF or microwave cables in any elecronic components catalogue they will state materials of construction, capacitance, impedance and rates of attenuation at specific frequencies per unit legnth.

Now it's time to cut the bull, the industry needs to find out if, why and by how much. No other industry would be taken seriously with so little data. But there again no other industry has that many followers who want to believe apart from relegion.

[Chas Underhay]

Ah, so it's all about empirical measurement, i see.

Ok, try this.

Phone up the customer services department of B&W - Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world.

Talk to him about the mid range centre cone on the Nautilus 801/2. In their OWN words, the aluminium one works (ie sounds) better that the plastic one, EVEN THOUGH they cannot measure any difference using monitoring equipment. Their words, not mine. Phone them, ask. And i've owned 802, and it's provable time and time again, with blindfolds, whatever you want.

Open your mind, Chas, the human ear is one of the most sensitive measuring devices ever created. I don't listen for test results, i listen for music. Which i find helps.

Tel

I remember those b*ggers when they used to be called Bowers and Wilkins. I remember one of their speakers from about 1970 that used a 12" moving coil bass unit and an electrostatic mid and HF unit, seem to remember it being available in a wood cabinet as well as a very futeristic looking one. Don't think they performed as good as they looked though but that's history.

I can understand why B&W may have torouble measuring the improvement with their aluminium coned speakers because they have got to use a mike in an anechoic chamber. This type of measuring will have far more limitations than hooking up a scope to various points of a circuit.

I feel from some of the statements you have made like "Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world" and the way you talked about the geezer who services the Levinson kit that you really do want to believe and become a desciple.

But trust nobody Terry assume that none of them are "good blokes" assume they are all B'stards who just want your money and are going to spin you an Emperor's New Clothes yarn. Then, when you really do hear an improvement you can be pleasantly supprised, you know that it's for real and not at other peoples suggestion and can then give full consideration to opening your wallet.

[E-Stat]

If you bought any marine instrument, the handbook would state minimum mounting distances from radio equipment and compasses. This isn't new stuff
What then is the handbook stated minimum mounting distance between CD players and any amplification stages?

Current metrics do not fully characterize the performance envelope of audio components.

rw

[TerryB]

Chas i'm no lemming believe me. But it's nice when you meet and talk to people in the industry who cut through the BS, and are willing to admit what works and what doesn't. B&W (yes, still Bowers and Wilkins) didn't even charge me for those aluminium cones - they were just concerned that i'd get the best possible performance from the speakers. They didn't need to do that. They certainly didn't need to admit that they were perplexed as to why one worked better than the other, in spite of the expert advice you're handing out to an established speaker manufacturer.

There has to be some reason why you've come to rely on tangible results to guide your ears, and no doubt you'll expand on that in another post, but believe me, i'd *much* rather be a disciple to what my ears are telling me rather than what a bunch of statistics tell me i *should* be hearing. Music isn't about test results or any such nonsense, it's about emotion and involvement. I *know* what works for me, and i'm more than happy to admit when something doesn't perform as i'd hoped or how i was told it would. Power cords can and DO make a difference. I know you don't like the fact, but it IS a fact. But at least you can save yourself several hundred pounds on the improvements they can bring, given that there isn't a whole raft of written data to back up the evidence i suppose. You're defensive on this subject to a tee, it's just getting a little tedious, in all honesty.

T

[Chas Underhay]

E- Stat Personally I've never seen anything in a modern CD player handbook stating minimum proximities. However I distinctly remember the hand books for the Quad 33 / 303 / FM3 (came out late 60s) stating minimum proximities and warning of the consequencies of not adhering to it. So perhaps a little more honest and proffessional approach is required nowadays.


Chas i'm no lemming believe me. But it's nice when you meet and talk to people in the industry who cut through the BS, and are willing to admit what works and what doesn't. B&W (yes, still Bowers and Wilkins) didn't even charge me for those aluminium cones - they were just concerned that i'd get the best possible performance from the speakers. They didn't need to do that. They certainly didn't need to admit that they were perplexed as to why one worked better than the other, in spite of the expert advice you're handing out to an established speaker manufacturer.

There has to be some reason why you've come to rely on tangible results to guide your ears, and no doubt you'll expand on that in another post, but believe me, i'd *much* rather be a disciple to what my ears are telling me rather than what a bunch of statistics tell me i *should* be hearing. Music isn't about test results or any such nonsense, it's about emotion and involvement. I *know* what works for me, and i'm more than happy to admit when something doesn't perform as i'd hoped or how i was told it would. Power cords can and DO make a difference. I know you don't like the fact, but it IS a fact. But at least you can save yourself several hundred pounds on the improvements they can bring, given that there isn't a whole raft of written data to back up the evidence i suppose. You're defensive on this subject to a tee, it's just getting a little tedious, in all honesty.T

"Music" may not be about test results but the design and manufacture of quality musical instruments and sound equipment relies heavily on it. Ask your good friends at B&W.

Not sure if it is me or you others being defensive. Personally, I've never heard any difference in mains cables, it's not like you can switch between them like you can two CD players so it makes comparison dificult. So all I'm asking somebody to do; is analyse it and measure it and don't tell me that a reduction in noise floor can't be measured.

It's like the life after death argument, ask some who believes it to prove it and see what answer they give.

[Bernd]

Hi Guys,

Good exchange going on.
I just think that you can't measure everything. When I changed all my Mains cables in one go to the Kimber PK10 and PK14 Palladian I heard a distinct difference in sound, that to these ears was an improvement. I couldn't say what that would be if you would only change one Powercord.
However the biggest improvement came when I installed a spur only for the Audio and invested in an Isotek Titan and Minisub.
So what do I know. It sounds better to me for doing these changes and am pleased I did that.
But I also see Chas' point. These things are highly overpriced because there are so many believers.
You could go on forever i.e. does the stand make a difference?
Tried many not heard one yet that sounds different from the next.
My 0.02 cts.

Peace

Bernd

[TerryB]

I'm defensive to the point that i'm defending the fact that these things CAN make a difference, *regardless* of what some test certificate might suggest. And it's what happens in our ears that's the important thing, nothing else. I've heard a difference, many others have heard a difference. Whether it's a "reduction in noise floor" i have absolutely no idea. In some ways i can draw an analogy with tuning a car, something else i'm heavily involved with. Once you reach a certain point, each subsequent tweak yields proportionately smaller results, but the overall effect, on the right day, just comes together perfectly, and each little improvement contributes to the overall performance. It's the same with hi-fi. I wouldn't dare suggest that mains cables are the lynch-pin of a system, but they DO have a part to play, there's no question in my mind. And to clarify, they're not my "very good friends" at B&W at all, in fact i'm still narked at them for not telling me that the 802 wouldn't be suited to my Chord amplification, but that's another story.

Bernd - yes i totally concur about the pricing of these things. In fact in Hi-Fi Choice this month there's a letter asking for a review of the leading power cords, which the editor declines to do on the basis that he doesn't want to make it appear that these things are of greater importance than they really are. Which i broadly agree with, especially in a magazine aimed at the budget end, where money can definitely be put to better uses. But there are certainly more companies now who are producing these things, possibly a case of jumping on the bandwagon, so either the manufacturers also recognise the sonic benefits or they're also putting their corporate reputations on the line by producing something that doesn't work. Like all cables, there will be some that do the job, some that don't, but hopefully the high prices will start to come down.

T

[Bernd]

Well said Mr.T.

I think we just need to enjoy what we have. I am sure different people hear things differently.
Also priority,never mind cost, plays an important part. If a powercord cost as much as somebodies entire Rig there will be questions asked. And you're right in the budget sector the money can be spent better.However since it is electricity what we are listening to, it does play a part how we treat that.
I plugged one of my Kimber Powercords in the Coffee maker and guess what, the coffee tests a lot better. Only joking.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

...it's not like you can switch between them like you can two CD players so it makes comparison dificult.
Actually, that is exactly what many folks are able to do. Each of my components (one exception) has an IEC jack allowing for the easy swapping of cords.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Couldn't get back last night - blues gig.

Good morning Terry, do you remember this one:


But on my main system, where i have Russ Andrews hi-current Powercords throughout, i'm really not so sure they make the biggest difference in the world, maybe because the equipment is of a much higher quality to begin with and therefore less susceptible to differences in mains leads.

However! I've been advised that all of these leads WILL come into their own as and when i have a seaparate spur installed from the fusebox specifically for the hi-fi, installed with decent woven, shielded mains cable. So if the electrician who's visiting next week tells me it will be possible to do at reasonable cost, i'll let you know if this theory holds true once the work is complete!Tel

Then a little later:


Marvellous. I changed the power c(h)ord on my PSL330 to a Wattgate 350 termintaed high current PowerKord and the sound is definitely yet another notch up the sweetness scale. Without a doubt.

Oh how i *wish* this wasn't the case, for Chas's sake if nothing else... ;)Tel

To sum up, one 'so called' expert has sold you a product with which you clearly not impressed, has not only ESCAPED the shortcoming but convinced you it will be only OK after you buy a load more cable from him and run a seperate spur. Remember at this point I recommended that you start becomong suspicious.

You have now found a product that you were impressed with without installing a seperate spur, so that doesn't quite stack up with what you were led to believe in the first place does it?

Best case scenario is that you have wasted money on the first power lead and learned that people aren't necessarilly telling you all of the truth all of the time and also learned that they may not be as expert as they make out.

A meaningful technical specification may have enabled you to discount the original cable in the first place.

Bernd, good morning Sir

I think you can see where I coming from, It is all ***king overpriced.

I've looked at that Kimber Pallidian cable on the web, I'm prepared to accept that it appears to work well but at around a thousand bucks a time, that crazy. Does it really come in a hardwood case? because that will be costing you another $200 at least. Let's see what you get for your money; 2 audiophile? gade Wattgate connectors which retail for $80 each and the cable appears to cost $10 per foot judging by the difference in cost betwen 4' and 6' legnths. So by some very simple arithmetic and excluding the sausage in the middle that comes out at $200 or about £120 per 4' cable. So what is in that sausage in the middle? A filter/suppressor I suspect and it's a bl**dy expensive one isn't it..

So what I'm saying to you audiophiles is if you believe you hear an improvement fine but for Christ's sake get inquisitive and start questioning why. Surely someone in the business can aquire one of these cables, compare it with a standard cable, measure its physical properties, resistance capacitance etc and if there really are improvements in noise floor measure that as well. Then ,oh horror of horrors, cut the dammned thing up and find out what really is in the sausage. Also see if there is any difference between an $80 wattgate connector and a good industrial grade one for about $10. Analyse sience and technology and debunk myths.

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety

So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.

Good morning E-Stat

I probably didn't make myself clear when I talked about A-B comparisons. I meant 2 CD players playing the same recording at the same time and fed in to the same pre-amp so that you can instantaneously switch between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch. Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.

Al the best

Chas

[TerryB]

Bloody hell you don't let it lie, do you?!! :D

Chas, improved mains cables DO and HAVE made a difference. As i said, not the *biggest* difference, but a difference. The chap at Levinson, the chaps at Heatherdale and a whole raft of other advocates, who have NO involvement in selling me a mains spur, tell me that these slight improvements will become *significant* improvements once a separate spur is installed. It really is as simple as that. But somehow i don't think it's going to be, is it..? ;)


Tel

[Bernd]

Hi Chas,
How was the gig and who did you go and see?

I am with you on the expense its bl**dy expensive, and no doubt somebody somewhere gets rich. But think about it if all the parts on a Mercedes are added up that's nowhere near the amount the car sells at. If one is so inclined one can build his own car.
After 20 years of small upgrades and sideways steps I wanted either to stop and downgrade or do one last upgrade. So my wife asked me how much it would be to get the rig that would satisfy me. Figure mentioned-helmet put on- but wonder oh wonder no fall out just"Do it this once and then enjoy it". So I did hence the expensive Kimbers. I think this cable works really well in my system and yes I agree with you 100% it's way overpriced. But I wanted it and I got it. End of story.
I am now so satisfied with my set up that upgrading doesn't even enter into it anymore. I sort of rediscovered why I started this in the first place and am thoroughly enjoy my time listening to the music. I am still convinced that the biggest improvement came when I added the Isotek Titan and Minisub.
Anyway I am enjoying what I have got and I hope that everybody else will share that feeling and get to where they want to be.
Shooting day tomorrow so look forward to come home all tired and wet and cold. Fire on,bottle of red and some discs spinning.Ahhh bliss.

Peace

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

Before you fly off the handle, read ALL of the post CAREFULLY.

I am no longer suggesting that you do not install a spur thats totally down to you.

I'm merely suggesting that people think about things and don't implicitly believe everything they are told by so called experts.

And that's my final comment on it

[Chas Underhay]

Hi Bernd

The blues gig was at a local pub they have them every week although I don't go every week but it is a jam session. some of the players come quite a distance it's a good night but could be a bit repetitive if you went too often.

If you are now happy with your system and can forget about it and use it for playing music, you have achieved your goal and thats great.

I'd like to have a look inside your Isotek Titan and Minisub sometime, as well as to really analyse one of those cables.

Like the sound of the shooting and the apres shooting tomorrow, I normally go to my boat at the weekend.

Perhaps one day we can swap a day shooting with you for a day fishing on my boat.

All the best and have a good one

Chas

[ruadmaa]

Couldn't get back last night - blues gig.

Good morning Terry, do you remember this one:



Then a little later:



To sum up, one 'so called' expert has sold you a product with which you clearly not impressed, has not only ESCAPED the shortcoming but convinced you it will be only OK after you buy a load more cable from him and run a seperate spur. Remember at this point I recommended that you start becomong suspicious.

You have now found a product that you were impressed with without installing a seperate spur, so that doesn't quite stack up with what you were led to believe in the first place does it?

Best case scenario is that you have wasted money on the first power lead and learned that people aren't necessarilly telling you all of the truth all of the time and also learned that they may not be as expert as they make out.

A meaningful technical specification may have enabled you to discount the original cable in the first place.

Bernd, good morning Sir

I think you can see where I coming from, It is all ***king overpriced.

I've looked at that Kimber Pallidian cable on the web, I'm prepared to accept that it appears to work well but at around a thousand bucks a time, that crazy. Does it really come in a hardwood case? because that will be costing you another $200 at least. Let's see what you get for your money; 2 audiophile? gade Wattgate connectors which retail for $80 each and the cable appears to cost $10 per foot judging by the difference in cost betwen 4' and 6' legnths. So by some very simple arithmetic and excluding the sausage in the middle that comes out at $200 or about £120 per 4' cable. So what is in that sausage in the middle? A filter/suppressor I suspect and it's a bl**dy expensive one isn't it..

So what I'm saying to you audiophiles is if you believe you hear an improvement fine but for Christ's sake get inquisitive and start questioning why. Surely someone in the business can aquire one of these cables, compare it with a standard cable, measure its physical properties, resistance capacitance etc and if there really are improvements in noise floor measure that as well. Then ,oh horror of horrors, cut the dammned thing up and find out what really is in the sausage. Also see if there is any difference between an $80 wattgate connector and a good industrial grade one for about $10. Analyse sience and technology and debunk myths.

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety

So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.

Good morning E-Stat

I probably didn't make myself clear when I talked about A-B comparisons. I meant 2 CD players playing the same recording at the same time and fed in to the same pre-amp so that you can instantaneously switch between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch. Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.

Al the best

Chas

You are offering some excellent advice Chas, I honestly hope some people use their brain and don't fall for all the advertising hipe. People will be more than glad to sell you anything.

Incidentally, if anyone out there really wants excellent advice on just about all phases of electronics, do a search for "Woodman". He used to post on this forum and as far as I can tell was one of the most knowledgable people I had ever seen post on forums.

[Chas Underhay]

You are offering some excellent advice Chas, I honestly hope some people use their brain and don't fall for all the advertising hipe. People will be more than glad to sell you anything.

Incidentally, if anyone out there really wants excellent advice on just about all phases of electronics, do a search for "Woodman". He used to post on this forum and as far as I can tell was one of the most knowledgable people I had ever seen post on forums.

Thank you Sir

Thought it was just falling on deaf ears at first then eventually starting wondering if it was me that was going mad.

I remember Woodman, I'll have to do that search.

All the best

Chas

[E-Stat]

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety
Yes.


So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.
That's what Mr. Neutrino says he can do, but declines to reveal his secret.


Good morning E-Stat
Good morning kind sir.


Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.
Presuming of course that you believe all audible differences are detectable in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. Over thirty years of comparative listening teaches me otherwise. Evidently, we have different points of reference.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Presuming of course that you believe all audible differences are detectable in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. Over thirty years of comparative listening teaches me otherwise. Evidently, we have different points of reference.rw

When I wrote about instantaneously switching between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch I didn't intend it to be interpreted that the test be conducted in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. If the differences are very small it could still take for ever

My point was that the time delay in stopping, unplugging and restarting requires that the tester relies too much on memory of the previous sound whilst analysing the sound currently playing. I would therefore still conclude that the method is too slow to give a totally accurate comparison.

[E-Stat]

My point was that the time delay in stopping, unplugging and restarting requires that the tester relies too much on memory of the previous sound whilst analysing the sound currently playing. I would therefore still conclude that the method is too slow to give a totally accurate comparison.
I understand your point and disagree. My experience supports the converse using familiar content.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

I understand your point and disagree. My experience supports the converse using familiar content.rw

From a totally practical point of view, when the comparison of the sound between A and B becomes that difficult and all other things equal (build quality etc) surely it is time to return to the real world and either buy or recommend the most cost effective option.

[E-Stat]

From a totally practical point of view, when the comparison of the sound between A and B becomes that difficult and all other things equal (build quality etc) surely it is time to return to the real world and either buy or recommend the most cost effective option.
May you analyze the data to your heart's content and draw your own "practical" conclusions.

As for me, I'll be deeply enjoying the music. ;)

rw

[shokhead]

I got to say after doing some reading that a power con might be helpful on a good mid-priced and up A/V system but there's some wacky stuff in this thread that i have never heard of. Millions of us have been wrong to have our amps and players in a rack together? Amps on floors. You know you can only hear so much and only not hear so much. I dont think that spending more on better cables and a power con and other little tricks that add up to more then you A/V stuff cost is a good deal. Seems like spending the money on better equipment in the first place is a better way to go. After market hype and equipment is HUGE in all markets. To much hype and not enough true results. Of course what do i know,i got cheap stuff.

[Bernd]

Hi Bernd

The blues gig was at a local pub they have them every week although I don't go every week but it is a jam session. some of the players come quite a distance it's a good night but could be a bit repetitive if you went too often.

If you are now happy with your system and can forget about it and use it for playing music, you have achieved your goal and thats great.

I'd like to have a look inside your Isotek Titan and Minisub sometime, as well as to really analyse one of those cables.

Like the sound of the shooting and the apres shooting tomorrow, I normally go to my boat at the weekend.

Perhaps one day we can swap a day shooting with you for a day fishing on my boat.

All the best and have a good one

Chas

Hi Chas,

Haven't been fishing for years. Used to really enjoy fly fishing. A swap sounds good. All booked up now until Christmas though.
It's dreadful weather at the moment, hopefully it will have moved by tomorrow.
Have a nice weekend

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

I think that the only reason that the wacky stuff you refered to crept in was that it was infererd that I had never heard of RFI. The reason I keep my power amp on the floor is 1 there ain't any room on the shelves and I don't need access to it as it is permananlly switched on. 2 to keep it away from my phono stage and cartridge etc because you can get hum big time there if your not carefull by electromagnetic radiation from the big transformer in the amp. In fact my phono stage is as close as I can get it to the arm there is no mains whatsoever within at least two feet of it (outboard PSU). That didn't cost any money though just a bit of thought.

Personally, I've not had any problems with the other stuff and it is all on shelves together like everybody elses.

When I think for the price of two of these exotic power cables I could buy a new state of the art autopilot for my boat including gyro stabilised course computer, hydraulic pump, control head, fluxgate compass, and rudder feedback, I'll happliy live without them.

Listen to the music mate, not the kit.

[Chas Underhay]

Hi Chas,

Haven't been fishing for years. Used to really enjoy fly fishing. A swap sounds good. All booked up now until Christmas though.
It's dreadful weather at the moment, hopefully it will have moved by tomorrow.
Have a nice weekend

Bernd

Hi Bernd

Ive got quite a lot of work to do on the boat betwen now and Christmas anyway but the fishing would be in the summer so out of the shooting season.

We could do some bass fishing perhaps, I think you would like that.

All the best and keep in touch

Chas

[Bernd]

Hi Bernd

Ive got quite a lot of work to do on the boat betwen now and Christmas anyway but the fishing would be in the summer so out of the shooting season.

We could do some bass fishing perhaps, I think you would like that.

All the best and keep in touch

Chas

Hi Chas,

Sounds really cool and thank you for the offer. I will keep in touch. I can offer Grousse or rough shooting,Fox controll with the Dachshunds or Roe Deer stalking. Take a look here www.waldmeister.co.uk

Talk to you soon

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

I can offer Grousse or rough shooting,Fox controll with the Dachshunds or Roe Deer stalking. Bernd

Talk about spoilt for choice! marvelous I'll be in touch.

Take care

Chas

[Pat]

I am thinking about purchasing 3 aftermarket power chords. An internet site is offering 3 ft. 12 ga ptf shieldied wire with connectors that everyone seems to think are good. The price is around 100.00 each. Seems like a fair price for the products. I am not interested in replacement power cables from speaker cable companies at several hundred dollars each. Questions are: 1) Am I likely to detect any sonic upgrades from doing this and 2) 12 ga seems like an overkill in wire guage.
your thoughts...... thanks, dk
I've made my own heavyweight 10 gauge powercords with with material from www.partsexpress.com They work fine and I can make them any length I need.

[E-Stat]

I've made my own heavyweight 10 gauge powercords with with material from www.partsexpress.com They work fine and I can make them any length I need.
Next time, try the Belden 83803 double shielded cable available at PE for high RFI generators like CD / DVD players.

rw

[Pat]

Thanks,
I wasn't thinking about sheilding at the time.