Some clips from New Orleans

[Geoffcin]

Watch at your own risk;

http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2678976&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=product&launchVal=1&data=null


http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2678978&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=product&launchVal=1&data=null

[dean_martin]

that makes my heart heavy...

I was told by a friend that FEMA cut communications lines, but I took the news with some skepticism because my friend is an anti-government conspiracy theorist and I hadn't heard it any where else...until now...shocking.

[Geoffcin]

that makes my heart heavy...

I was told by a friend that FEMA cut communications lines, but I took the news with some skepticism because my friend is an anti-government conspiracy theorist and I hadn't heard it any where else...until now...shocking.

I had originally thought that the problem was just that FEMA was poorly managed, but it looks for all the world like they actively added to the misery and confusion. I'm a New Yorker born and bred, but to my eyes this is a much worse thing to happen to America than 9-11. The shame of this failure of our goverment will last a generation.

[Florian]

I really don't understand why they let these criminals in Washington run around. This is a extreme tragedy one of which which we had too many in the last years. We have some friends in our Apogee comunity who where struck by this storm.

-Flo

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I had originally thought that the problem was just that FEMA was poorly managed, but it looks for all the world like they actively added to the misery and confusion. I'm a New Yorker born and bred, but to my eyes this is a much worse thing to happen to America than 9-11. The shame of this failure of our goverment will last a generation.

Geoff,
I am also a born and bred New Yorker who was in New York 5 days after 9-11, and FEMA was in place and on the job before I even got there. In Florida in 2004, they were writing checks within 6 hours after each of the 4 hurricanes that hit the area. I attribute this disaster(FEMA's response) to Brown's lack of experience, and Bush's knowledge of his lack of experience. You just don't put your buddy in a job where so many people depend on you for action after a major disaster.

[piece-it pete]

Strange how the Feds are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Not that they've been perfect, far from it, but considering that this possiblility has existed in NO for decades and decades you'd think that just maybe the city and state would have been ready.

No one has talked about how... byzantine the Louisiana gov't is, or how hopelessly inept the Mayor has appeared thoughout this.

Why was the evacuation such a joke? Why were there no supplies at the stadium (where the people were TOLD to go)?

Why were the buses below (they were even gassed up)(that's 127 buses btw) not used? 10 trips to high ground = 63,000 people.

And then the fighting over control (??!). They cried for the feds and *****ed when they came in. That's a HUGE difference over a terrorist attack - there would have been no argument. At the time the city/state leaders certainly knew vast amounts of money would be pouring in, and probably figured they'd need it to help repair their (deservedly) bad reputation - I bet they'd never guessed the Pres would take the heat!!

Pete

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4033/buses5au.png" border="0" width="418" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

[Florian]

Considering the fact that the international help is also not used by the Federal Goverment and that Mr.Walker went to a nice white part of the disaster after he flew over it in AirForce One only addes to his insane incompetence. The rich get richer!

6 days of nothing. The most powerfull country in the world showed that it is completely incapable of rescuing their own countrymen. Climate control with the Koyoto protocol has nothing to do with this, and we also had no problems with international terrorism until that fool became enpowered.

Man that gets me so upset. The people are suffering and those morons in washington with all the power on their hands do nothing. That is a FEDERAL problem. NewO is poor, there is a huge black poor population. They dont even have enough money to take a bus or a plane to leave. No car and many are on drugs. Those Washington morons position snipers to control the looting, they are all a bunch of fools.

If i saw my wife get swept away by tons of water and i have a dying baby in my arms you bet i will be the first one to kick down that door of the stupid wallmart.

If the Feds would have been as fast as wallmart there woulndt be this problem. I wont bow to politics and i think that a huge part of the problem is that most of the victims are black and not rich white Florida people.

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

i think that a huge part of the problem is that most of the victims are black and not rich white Florida people.
-Flo

Not black/white, but rich/poor.

Pete

[trollgirl]

...we should now put ourselves (USA) on the list of "failed nations".

Laz

[Geoffcin]

...we should now put ourselves (USA) on the list of "failed nations".

Laz
A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Strange how the Feds are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Not so strange. FEMA was created to handle diasters of this magnitude, not the local governments. FEMA botched being prepared berfore, and after this storm.


Not that they've been perfect, far from it, but considering that this possiblility has existed in NO for decades and decades you'd think that just maybe the city and state would have been ready.

Keep in mind, the army corps of engineers is in charge of the levy system. The city of NO and State of Louisiana have been asking the feds for years for money to upgrade and maintain the system. They have continually cut funds just like they are doing here in California. If we have a major earthquake in the Valley, we could have a break twice as large as NO did.


No one has talked about how... byzantine the Louisiana gov't is, or how hopelessly inept the Mayor has appeared thoughout this.

I don't think the mayor was so inept. He was VERY slow in calling a manditory evactuation. He, however called Bush early Tueday morning when the first levee gave out and asked to him to send everything he has to NO. It was clear only at that point that the storms damage was too large for the local government to handle. It would have been better for him to have called a manditory evacuation a couple of days before the storm instead of 20 hours before. That is all I really fault him for.


Why was the evacuation such a joke? Why were there no supplies at the stadium (where the people were TOLD to go)?

They actually told the citizens that were going to the deathdome to bring food, water, and blankets with them. Enough for a two day stay, not four or five though.


Why were the buses below (they were even gassed up)(that's 127 buses btw) not used? 10 trips to high ground = 63,000 people.

He did actually ask for bus drivers to take people out of NO, however no bus drivers showed up for work. They were too busy getting out of town.


And then the fighting over control (??!). They cried for the feds and *****ed when they came in. That's a HUGE difference over a terrorist attack - there would have been no argument. At the time the city/state leaders certainly knew vast amounts of money would be pouring in, and probably figured they'd need it to help repair their (deservedly) bad reputation - I bet they'd never guessed the Pres would take the heat!!

Pete, when the feds came in, they actually got in the way of the recovery effort. Walmart had several truck loads of food, water, and clothes sent in hours after the storm and the feds turn them away. Then there was this fight over a pumping station that the feds kept turning the power off to, and the locals had to keep turning it back on. Let's not mention the botched job of communication of the relief effort, or the lack of equipment in Louisiana that was in Iraq, which left the state pretty much helpless. Also the mayor talked to Bush on early Tuesday morning, and Bush sent help on Friday evening. No, Bush had this coming, and I think he got off the hook somewhat on this one.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

Word on this Geoff. Somebody wise said that the health of a nation is based on how it treats the least amoung them.

[markw]

This is a clear cut case where an ounce of prevention could have prevented a ton of cure, but let's get the facts straight.

If you give your child money for new school clothes and he buys comic books, what would you do?

"By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200509%5 CNAT20050907a.html

But, to say the feds weren't getting to the heart of the matter would be a misstatement.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-money17sep17,1,5736422.story?track=mostemailedlink&coll=la-home-outdoors&ctrack=1&cset=true

As for the evacuation plans, well... "FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm

And, as for the evacuation itself: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3344347

Considering that nagin didn't call for a mandatory evacuation until 10:00 pm on Sunday, September 29th, I'd say that the federal government did a pretty good job of procuring 500 buses in two days, That's pretty short notice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.refugees.ap/

Now, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Governer Blanco couldn't draft school busses from other school districts earlier ...or arrange for auditoriums, civic centers and the like within the state to be open for the "evacuees" ahead of time. After all, that IS her job. ..and Nagins too.

Instead, they did a Vinnie Babarino ("I'm so Confused!") and dropped it all into the Fed's lap.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-07-katrina-responsibilities_x.htm

Now, this cracks me up.

"There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted"

Ya can't have it both ways, honey. You two clowns blew it. Now get out of the way and let the pros do their job.

Sure, it's easy, fun and en vogus to dump on Bush, FEMA and co., but in all reality, the locals shold have done their part to evacuate their own.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is a clear cut case where an ounce of prevention could have prevented a ton of cure, but let's get the facts straight.

If you give your child money for new school clothes and he buys comic books, what would you do?

"By 1998, Louisiana's state government had a $2 billion construction budget, but less than one tenth of one percent of that -- $1.98 million -- was dedicated to levee improvements in the New Orleans area."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200509%5 CNAT20050907a.html

But, to say the feds weren't getting to the heart of the matter would be a misstatement.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-money17sep17,1,5736422.story?track=mostemailedlink&coll=la-home-outdoors&ctrack=1&cset=true

As for the evacuation plans, well... "FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm

And, as for the evacuation itself: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3344347

Considering that nagin didn't call for a mandatory evacuation until 10:00 pm on Sunday, September 29th, I'd say that the federal government did a pretty good job of procuring 500 buses in two days, That's pretty short notice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.refugees.ap/

Now, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Governer Blanco couldn't draft school busses from other school districts earlier ...or arrange for auditoriums, civic centers and the like within the state to be open for the "evacuees" ahead of time. After all, that IS her job. ..and Nagins too.

Instead, they did a Vinnie Babarino ("I'm so Confused!") and dropped it all into the Fed's lap.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-07-katrina-responsibilities_x.htm

Now, this cracks me up.

"There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted"

Ya can't have it both ways, honey. You two clowns blew it. Now get out of the way and let the pros do their job.

Sure, it's easy, fun and en vogus to dump on Bush, FEMA and co., but in all reality, the locals shold have done their part to evacuate their own.

Mark,
You can point to all of the newspaper articles you desire, but my experience has taught me than none of the resource comes without some sort of slant to it. Even our news here has a slant to it. I just prefer to watch what I see on my monitors, that has proven to be much more enlightening than any newspaper article.

[markw]

Mark,
You can point to all of the newspaper articles you desire, but my experience has taught me than none of the resource comes without some sort of slant to it. Even our news here has a slant to it. I just prefer to watch what I see on my monitors, that has proven to be much more enlightening than any newspaper article.So, are you saying these links are untrue?

[piece-it pete]

A short look at the history of nations and it's easy to see that the trigger for the collapse of a civilization is not just the stress of a disaster, but the perception of the people that the government in charge does not have the ability or answers to fix whatever problem is confronting them. Once people loose faith in the government, then the nation eventually falls. We've seen it just recently in the USSR, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen here.

Interesting. I've believed for some time now we are riding the crest of those before us. It seems it is only a matter of time.

On the flip side we have very large differences with most countries in history. As a democracy our gov't is a reflection of the people. So when we lose faith in the gov't we no longer trust ourselves - we will become a dictatorship in reality imho. No, I do not believe it has happened yet. But I think it's soon. "Hate crime" or similar legislation (egged on by well-meaning but ignorant people) will hand an open ticket to whoever decides what hate speech is, they will become the ruling party in a one party system, one party system = dictatorship.

Like dominos. I doubt we'll be overrun and looted by outsiders like the Romans.

Well, maybe by Canadians :D .

T, FEMA is the responder of last resort. I stand by my last post.

Are you aware that each levy system has its' own gov't controlling agency? If NO and LA had their act together they could have had enormous clout in getting the levies upgraded. Instead, like post-Katrina, they just worried about defending their little kingdoms.

And there wouldn't be bodies floating around - say again about the bus drivers?

Watch the rebuilding project - be ready to be amazed.

My continuing prayers to the victims (and their families) of Katrina.

Pete

[markw]

My continuing prayers to the victims (and their families) of Katrina.

PeteI'm glad Bush stepped up to the plate and put an end to all this fingerpointing so they gcoulfd get on with what had to be done. Now is not the time for that. After things are running better for the victims is the time to objectively evaluate the string of failures, on all levels, involved here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So, are you saying these links are untrue?

Some true, some incomplete, and some slanted.

[piece-it pete]

Mark:

Well said, sir.

Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

T, FEMA is the responder of last resort. I stand by my last post.

Considering that most of the lives lost were post storm, they are still to blame, and at fault for a majority of this. We'll agree to disagree.


Are you aware that each levy system has its' own gov't controlling agency? If NO and LA had their act together they could have had enormous clout in getting the levies upgraded. Instead, like post-Katrina, they just worried about defending their little kingdoms.

While they may have their own controlling agency, they still have to look for financing elsewhere. They are not self sufficient.

Waiting until later to focus and point out blame is a receipe for another diaster. Memories are short, detail gets lost, as do desires to get to the bottom of things. Time moves forward and this disaster will soon be replaced by another event. Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you.

[piece-it pete]

Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you.

So you agree you're being partisan? I have already said Bush is responsible for FEMA.

Why didn't we invade Afganistan on 9-12-01? It takes time to mobilize. This disaster was huge. Those folks should have been out of there!

Pete

[markw]

Some true, some incomplete, and some slanted.We could pretty much say this about anything the media posts, true? I guess the "truth" is where one chooses to see it.

Remember, your "monitors" onbly show you select scenes that your cameramen deemed worthy of shooting, and these would be those scenes that would play on easy emotions to rile up, not unlike those black looter/white opportunist photos in your other thread that had you in an uproar except you would like to see bush as the looter and the local politicos as the opportunists.


Now is the time to get to the bottom of this, unless you are a Bush supporter. In that case, later probably would work for you..Why would this work to the advantage of Bush supporters? This merely shows your anti Bush bias is affecting your thoughts.

It seems you would rather overlook any possibilities that there may have been more people and agencies responsible for this snafu than Bush and would rather everyone else ignored that possibility as well.

You're a little too judgmental on this. It's best to wait for the truth, the whole truth.

There's already indictments out for some of the NOLA cronies for kerfutzing around the federal FEMA funds from well before this incident. You don't see that that may well have had a big impact on what went down here?

No, first get NOLA running and then sort it out. Maybe they will find some of that missing FEMA money and apply it where it belongs, mainly on the levees.

I must say, Sir T, that I'm a little disappointed in that you seem to be letting your personal bias get in the way of rational thought on political matters brought up here lately.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

We could pretty much say this about anything the media posts, true? I guess the "truth" is where one chooses to see it.

If you pay attention to the media, this is true.


Remember, your "monitors" onbly show you select scenes that your cameramen deemed worthy of shooting, and these would be those scenes that would play on easy emotions to rile up, not unlike those black looter/white opportunist photos in your other thread that had you in an uproar except you would like to see bush as the looter and the local politicos as the opportunists.

Mark, asssumptions are both harmful and unproductive. What I saw on my monitiors were live feeds, uncut, unstaged(except the interviews) and much of it never was seen on network or cable television because it would be deemed inflammatory. How do you know what I would like to see? Do you have special gifts you haven't told us about?


Why would this work to the advantage of Bush supporters? This merely shows your anti Bush bias is affecting your thoughts.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it whether its totally wrong, or right. The reasons why this would work for Bush supporters is fairly easy to figure out.


It seems you would rather overlook any possibilities that there may have been more people and agencies responsible for this snafu than Bush and would rather everyone else ignored that possibility as well.

Once again, you do not know what I would rather overlook or choose to see. More assumptions. I recognized that there are many layers to this cake. Several layers failed, one layer totally, and continued to make mistake after mistake.


You're a little too judgmental on this. It's best to wait for the truth, the whole truth.

Perhaps I am not judgemental enough. We have seen some truths already, and more to come. I am not one to look away when some things are fairly obvious.


There's already indictments out for some of the NOLA cronies for kerfutzing around the federal FEMA funds from well before this incident. You don't see that that may well have had a big impact on what went down here?

No. The hurricane came through on Sunday, FEMA came on friday. FEMA was disorganized, and according to 31 out of 39 FEMA departments heads, FEMA was paying more attention to terrorism and not enough to natural diasters. That's a fact, and part of what contributed to their sorry response. Bush installed one of his cronies to head FEMA, he had no experience whatsoever in handling diasters of any nature. This is the result of that kind of cronism, hundreds have died. Some things are obvious and in your face and very tough to overlook. Do you see what FEMA is doing in Florida right now? That is what they SHOULD have done in NO


No, first get NOLA running and then sort it out. Maybe they will find some of that missing FEMA money and apply it where it belongs, mainly on the levees.

Are we so stupid that we cannot do more than one thing at a time? FEMA money doesn't pay for levee's unfortunately.


I must say, Sir T, that I'm a little disappointed in that you seem to be letting your personal bias get in the way of rational thought on political matters brought up here lately.

Oh geeze, I may not get any sleep tonight, Mark is disappointed in me. I am sorry you are disappointed that I don't agree with you. I guess if I don't, then I am wrong. It seems that you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of. Your personal bias is allowing you to overlook the obvious. Your opinions of my thoughts are noted, and forgotten. Let us agree to disagree. I don't think you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I think we come from opposite sides of the political fence. I just like everyone else in this country, we are probably too polarized in our opinions to ever come to an agreement.

[Florian]

If the voters would have gotten what they voted for, America wouldnt have this sorry excuse for a president sitting tight in the white house. And no daddys who shake hands and make oil deals with the Bin Ladens. Well, the only good thing about is that he cant be reelected.This moron walks into Iraq, Afganistan is responsible for terror attacks worldwide. Leaves hundreds of thousands without home, doesnt find Bin Laden, doesnt find nuclear weapons, threatens Noth Korea, and doesnt join the rest of the worl in the Koyoto protocol and wonders about storms.... Man this guy is so bloddy stupid!!!!

-Flo

[piece-it pete]

Florian I'm assuming you voted Republican last election. Don't hold back, tell us what you REALLY think.

:D

Blaming FEMA is shallow. Yes they screwed up. But again -

WHY WERE ALL THOSE POOR PEOPLE STILL THERE?

Where were the emergency stocks of food, water, basic medicine?

Flor that was undoubtably Bushs' fault - somehow.

T the real reason for waiting on the inquiry is simple: those who will be called before Congress are kinda busy right now.

Pete

[Resident Loser]

...exactly WHO did you folks elect...

Wanna' start on how F*cked-up Europe is...and has been through history...Lessee...how many wars have there been? the Seven Years War, the Thirty Years War, the Hundred Years War, the War of the Roses, The Carolingian Succession, the War of Spanish Succession, The War of Austrian Succession, The English Civil War, the French Revolutionary wars, the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimean War ,The Franco Prussian War, the Spanish Civil War and then when there didn't seem to be enough warfare on the continent proper, countries like Germany began to export the Art of War(after all only that sort of history could raise it to an artform) to Africa in the Maji-Maji Revolt or the Herero War and then of course the Boer War, Of course we can't leave out the family-feud to end all family-feuds WWl...remember that bit of fun from all those inbred @$$holes...trench-warfare, machine guns, tanks, mustard gas...and who can forget BLITZKREIG! and V-1s, buzz-bombs...Zylon and the ghetto and the Final Solution......then on the political side there's feudalism, and anarchy, and communism, and socialism, and Mussolini, Franco and good ol' uncle Adolph...some other nifty exports like world colonialism and all it entails, the decimation of the native peoples in the Americas by disease, and the introduction of slavery into the New World, and the Crusades, and Edith Piaf, and Ikea and heroin.

And if you wanna' start on world terrorism, I'd suggest you go back to things like the Balfour Document and the partiton of the Holy Land, all administered by Euro-friggin-peans...In fact, one could easily make an argument that Israel itself, or the need and want for a Jewish homeland, is the product of every European Jew who was ostricized, ghetto-ized, marginalized or exiled down through European history. In essence we have YOU to thank for the current state of affairs. The U.S. involvement with Israel is an unfortunate by-product of the cold war imbalance created by Russia's support of Egypt, which we viewed as having dire consequences for the region in general and Europe as a whole...

And this is the thanks we get, you Teutontic twit?

So why not go and stick your head back up your @$$ and rave on about your highly tweaked, non-stock loudspeakers...

jimHJJ(...Spam anyone?...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Blaming FEMA is shallow. Yes they screwed up. But again -

Why would it be shallow to blame FEMA?. Here is their history.

http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm

This sentence is particulary telling.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters. [/quote]

If they had responded to, or planned for this diaster like they are currently doing in Florida, it wouldn't have been the travesty this turned out to be. Had FEMA balanced their approach evenly between terrorism AND natural disasters, maybe their response wouldn't have been so poor. Maybe if FEMA had the former chief instead of the inexperienced Brown, them their response would have been different. However when you start off with a inexperienced leader, and the thrust of your prepared directed towards terrorism, then one can only expect just what we got.



WHY WERE ALL THOSE POOR PEOPLE STILL THERE?

Many were sick, as a matter of fact CNN, Fox news along with ABC, CBS and every other news agency are all reporting that it was mostly the sick and shut in that perished in the flood. Others didn't want to go, or didn't have the means to go. Mandory evacuations are not inforced, a practice I hope changes after this mess.


Where were the emergency stocks of food, water, basic medicine?

That's what FEMA is for. Read their history, then ask them where were they.



T the real reason for waiting on the inquiry is simple: those who will be called before Congress are kinda busy right now.

Pete

Pete, is Bush not on the front lines passing out food and water, arrainging housing and the needs of the people hands on. He is busy making trips, shaking hands, and smiling at the worst time imagineable. Brown is fired, Nagin might be too busy, and so would the Governer. However, none of these people are on the front lines, they should and could be called before congress. Bush would never do it though, never!

Lets face it, the more time that has passed, the more everyone forgets. This has already dropped off the front page of the newspaper, and is not leading any local or network newscasts. As time passes, this event will be replaced by another one. This one will be forgotten, and so will the people affected by it. Now is the time unless you DO NOT want to really get to the bottom of this. This should be top priority because face it, we do not know when the next disaster will come. It could be tomorrow.

[Florian]

Hahah, well i am german and can't vote. Besides i think that Kerry is a moron too, but the lesser of two evils :-)

For me its simple. If a huge storm hits and basically wipes out an entire state/city than it is the job of the leader of the country to get off his ass from one of many holidays and go there in person to help the people.

But what does this moron do, he knows the storm is coming and sipped on another drink while on holiday. Doesnt do ****, takes forever to get funds and then blames other organizations. Who the hell cares about FEMA. Its a national distaster for ****s sacke!, damn lamer President get off your ass and do something about it.

That fool was faster in getting money and sending 1000's of troops to Iraq then to help his own people. The stupid Homeland security is a simple way of abusing the americans in their feer and to gain more power than that dictator in russia.

Italy, Germany, France, England and bloddy cuba offered help and he rejected it. They accepted the first 66.6% and denied the other 33.3% cause of fear of faulty food. Yeah right, its the same damn thing the american troops are eating in iraq right now.

I tell you what happend, this bloddy fool wasted all the money on the most pointless war ever, created terrorism around the globe and gets his daddy richer.

-Flo

PS: Can you tell i dont like Bush ;)

[Florian]

To Resident Looser:

I know the USA never has done anything wrong, and Bush is a good person. Just remember this!!!

http://www.projectpeacemakers.org/red%20nuclear%20explosion.jpg

[Florian]

...exactly WHO did you folks elect...

Wanna' start on how F*cked-up Europe is...and has been through history...Lessee...how many wars have there been? the Seven Years War, the Thirty Years War, the Hundred Years War, the War of the Roses, The Carolingian Succession, the War of Spanish Succession, The War of Austrian Succession, The English Civil War, the French Revolutionary wars, the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimean War ,The Franco Prussian War, the Spanish Civil War and then when there didn't seem to be enough warfare on the continent proper, countries like Germany began to export the Art of War(after all only that sort of history could raise it to an artform) to Africa in the Maji-Maji Revolt or the Herero War and then of course the Boer War, Of course we can't leave out the family-feud to end all family-feuds WWl...remember that bit of fun from all those inbred @$$holes...trench-warfare, machine guns, tanks, mustard gas...and who can forget BLITZKREIG! and V-1s, buzz-bombs...Zylon and the ghetto and the Final Solution......then on the political side there's feudalism, and anarchy, and communism, and socialism, and Mussolini, Franco and good ol' uncle Adolph...some other nifty exports like world colonialism and all it entails, the decimation of the native peoples in the Americas by disease, and the introduction of slavery into the New World, and the Crusades, and Edith Piaf, and Ikea and heroin.

And if you wanna' start on world terrorism, I'd suggest you go back to things like the Balfour Document and the partiton of the Holy Land, all administered by Euro-friggin-peans...In fact, one could easily make an argument that Israel itself, or the need and want for a Jewish homeland, is the product of every European Jew who was ostricized, ghetto-ized, marginalized or exiled down through European history. In essence we have YOU to thank for the current state of affairs. The U.S. involvement with Israel is an unfortunate by-product of the cold war imbalance created by Russia's support of Egypt, which we viewed as having dire consequences for the region in general and Europe as a whole...

And this is the thanks we get, you Teutontic twit?

So why not go and stick your head back up your @$$ and rave on about your highly tweaked, non-stock loudspeakers...

jimHJJ(...Spam anyone?...) Haha the typical excuse.. Europe is soooo bad, it justifies our own stupidity in america. Get real, and learn from other mistakes.

BTW.....i just mention Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Bin Laden, Blakan Islands etc..... the USA has more blood on their hands in the short time than us in all the years.!!!

And the Nazi support that the USA enjoyed, the nice technology and scienetists and Nazi chefs which got asylum in the US cause they profit from it.

You voted for Bush, and are trying to tell me it was a good reaction. Yeah right!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Haha the typical excuse from a redneck. Europe is soooo bad, it justifies our own stupidity in america. Get real, and learn from other mistakes.

BTW.....i just mention Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Bin Laden, Blakan Islands etc..... the USA has more blood on their hands in the short time than us in all the years.!!!

And the Nazi support that the USA enjoyed, the nice technology and scienetists and Nazi chefs which got asylum in the US cause they profit from it.

You voted for Bush, and are trying to tell me it was a good reaction. Yeah right!!

Flo, I know you have strong emotions about this, but Redneck is not cool. We do not all agree on everything, but let's not reduce this to a bunch of name calling.

[Florian]

Its been removed.

PS: Thanks for mentioning my loudspeakers. Dont worry about it, you dont know what your missing so its not all that bad for you.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Its been removed.

PS: Thanks for mentioning my loudspeakers. Dont worry about it, you dont know what your missing so its not all that bad for you.

Thanks Flo!

[piece-it pete]

Sorry Flor, I thought you were American. I'm constantly amazed at the vitrol spewing forth from Europe towards us. Try paying your fair share of world security and I'll give your opinion more weight.

Boy T, we must enjoy this (arguing, not NO). Maybe we're just gluttons for punishment :) .


Why would it be shallow to blame FEMA?. Here is their history.

http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm

This sentence is particulary telling.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.

If they had responded to, or planned for this diaster like they are currently doing in Florida, it wouldn't have been the travesty this turned out to be. Had FEMA balanced their approach evenly between terrorism AND natural disasters, maybe their response wouldn't have been so poor. Maybe if FEMA had the former chief instead of the inexperienced Brown, them their response would have been different. However when you start off with a inexperienced leader, and the thrust of your prepared directed towards terrorism, then one can only expect just what we got.

So local planning and execution is up to the Feds?! When did THAT happen?

Agreed it would have been nice to have a competent person in charge of FEMA. It also appears that this caught everyone flat-footed. If this shows anything, it's that the old saying: Familiarity breeds Contempt - is true.

Terrorism was at the forefront of everyone's mind.



WHY WERE ALL THOSE POOR PEOPLE STILL THERE?

Many were sick, as a matter of fact CNN, Fox news along with ABC, CBS and every other news agency are all reporting that it was mostly the sick and shut in that perished in the flood. Others didn't want to go, or didn't have the means to go. Mandory evacuations are not inforced, a practice I hope changes after this mess.

I thought it was the poor and/or minorities as well? Same deal as the buses - many ambulances sitting unused. No matter how you slice it, the local and state gov't failed their people miserably. Mandatory evacuations will be a disaster unto itself - just wait till the National Guard shoots someone.


That's what FEMA is for. Read their history, then ask them where were they.

When a tree falls on my house, I'll call them.



Pete, is Bush not on the front lines passing out food and water, arrainging housing and the needs of the people hands on. He is busy making trips, shaking hands, and smiling at the worst time imagineable. Brown is fired, Nagin might be too busy, and so would the Governer. However, none of these people are on the front lines, they should and could be called before congress. Bush would never do it though, never!

Lets face it, the more time that has passed, the more everyone forgets. This has already dropped off the front page of the newspaper, and is not leading any local or network newscasts. As time passes, this event will be replaced by another one. This one will be forgotten, and so will the people affected by it. Now is the time unless you DO NOT want to really get to the bottom of this. This should be top priority because face it, we do not know when the next disaster will come. It could be tomorrow.

Right now, the gov't on top of the other 5 million very important things they have to do is busy trying to figure out the best way to a) finish cleaning out NO, and b) rebuilding it, along with the oil support and the port itself. Not simple, not easy. Anyone who thinks the top echelon of our gov't has free time right now is not understanding what has/is happened/happening. Generals do not fight in the trenches.

Certainly no one really believes the entire system isn't being overhauled as we speak?? Not just a human disaster, it is also a political one, from top to bottom on every level. I'm sure most politicos actually care about the dead, and I'm positive they ALL want to be popular!

Heaven forbid it should be tomorrow. Seems like a good time to pray.

Pete

[piece-it pete]

BTW.....i just mention Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, Bin Laden, Blakan Islands etc..... the USA has more blood on their hands in the short time than us in all the years.!!!


Better crack a history book there Flor.

Pete

[Florian]

Absolutly not!

The Atomic bombs, invasion of iraq, threats to North Korea, Invasion of Afganistan etc... add all that up and your not too far away from my past ancestors.

Anyway, i dont care how much weight you give my opinion. We do more for the well being and safety of this world than the US. Too many people in the US still think we are in the cold war still. LOL.....

-Flo

PS: Besides its your own stupidity, you guys trained Bin Laden to fight the war against the russians. Too bad the FALSE American PRIDE gets in the way. But i dont blame the people, afterall 54% are against the war and didnt want Bush in the first place.

[Resident Loser]

...European history justifies anything we may have done...no, no Euro-trash, it's all in our genes and s a great many of us are of European descent...do I have to draw you a picture? We just managed to escape the continent, not the genetic material...perhaps you simply don't grasp the concept of the pot calling the kettle black, quite surprising for the master race and all...

Out of curiosity, adzswipe, do you know what a 'redneck' is? or do you get your vast puddle of knowledge of American life via old "Dukes of Hazzard" re-runs and MacDonalds adverts?

"...learn from other mistakes..."

Yep, you're quite right mein little schnitzel...George Washington, in his farewell, advised us to "avoid foreign entanglements" we shoulda' listened and not let Wilson drag us into savin' your bacon...not just once, but twice...oh. oh...I'm sorry, we didn't save YOUR bacon particularly we just helped kick your ass...but that's when war was considered art...

"...Nazi support that the USA enjoyed..."

Oh, like Von Braun and the boys...just think how different the world might be if Russia had gotten' them first...East Germany and the Berlin Wall would have been like a tea-party...

I see you conveniently ignored the second paragraph...any glib responses to that Bismarck...

And if you can't(or won't) respond, just explain why putting caraway seeds into it makes it Bavarian sauerkraut...

jimHJJ(...that shouldn't tax your abilities too much...)

[markw]

Within this past week I've learned that you blame white people for all the problems in this country and Bush for everything that has ever gone wrong with Katrina. Nobody else had a hand in the Katrina fiasco at all.

I'm sure glad you're not prejudiced. I'd hate to see what you would be like if you were.

so long and thanks for the fish. It's been enlightening.

And Flo, thanks for giving the world Hitler. You DO know Hitler was working on an atomic bomb when the war ended, don't ya? The only reason he didn't use it first is because the US and Russia took the wind out of your sails and he didn't get a chance to finish it. We did...

England can also thank your countries skills in designing rockets to rain down destruction on civilian targets. But what the heck, after what you guys did to the Jews, that's chump change.

Oh. along with cars, Mercedes also made quite efficient gas nozzles for the concentration camps. How many Jews per gallon did you guys get?

http://www.antisemitismus.net/deutschland/ulmer.htm

How's that 18% unemployment rate going? ain't socialism grand?

[Florian]

WoW, it took you 30 minutes to write tha! Properbly the old 2 finger system. Well dont worry, it matches your 2 brain cells.

So i am a Nazi, Eurotrash etc.... good job. I am glad that you passed at least the second grade in Highschool! Puts you on the same level as donkey.

I know you can judge me, afterall your the world police and can judge all people. Man i wish i lived more than 6 years in the USA! I miss this extreme shortsightetness.

-Happy living....just wait till north Korea pushed the little red button, or until Florida and New York gets blown to pieces.

Life in fear is great, i know. Call Bush and ask him to join you in the bunker below your home with the loaded 12 gauge from Wallmart...

LOL

[markw]

You seem proud that you killed millions of people in WW2.

We did it regretfully. You did it cheerfully.

That's the difference between us.

Oh, rejoice. Anti-semetisim still isn't dead in Germany. You may still have a chance since deep down inside you know you to want to align yourself with those rogus countries.

http://www.antisemitismus.net/deutschland/ulmer.htm

[Florian]

Hey buddy look, this killed millions more than your A-Bombs....

Wow...its a ship!

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/03/images_bismarck/bismarck_16.jpg

[Florian]

Within this past week I've learned that you blame white people for all the problems in this country and Bush for everything that has ever gone wrong with Katrina. Nobody else had a hand in the Katrina fiasco at all.

I'm sure glad you're not prejudiced. I'd hate to see what you would be like if you were.

so long and thanks for the fish. It's been enlightening.

And Flo, thanks for giving the world Hitler. You DO know Hitler was working on an atomic bomb when the war ended, don't ya? The only reason he didn't use it first is because the US and Russia took the wind out of your sails and he didn't get a chance to finish it. We did...

England can also thank your countries skills in designing rockets to rain down destruction on civilian targets. But what the heck, after what you guys did to the Jews, that's chump change.

Oh. along with cars, Mercedes also made quite efficient gas nozzles for the concentration camps. How many Jews per gallon did you guys get?

How's that 18% unemployment rate going? ain't socialism grand?
Wow,....****ing funny this ****. You fit the description of a Nazi much more than me.

Rule Nr.1

1. If i hate all white people, i cant be a Nazi in the first place.
2. My past happend when i was not born, so i cant be at fault.
3. We may have 18%, but still better than having a 34% illetracy rate, racism, and 52% working and living under our social service services.

[Florian]

Your not one bit better then the people who lived in germany before me. Not one BIT !!!
At least i learn from my mistakes, your so bloddy dumb you do it over and over again!

[markw]

Know why? We cut your balls off after WW2.

Now go take over France again. This time we'll let you keep 'em.

Yep, you area little nazi. or at least a wannabe from your posts here.

[Resident Loser]

... I'm holding up two fingers right now...can you guess which ones?

Still ignoring the premise of my second paragraph I see.

BTW, I don't live on the internet, nor do I await your missives with bated breath, in hushed tones...I do other, more semi-important things.

BTW redux, The photo you provided looks suspiciously like a hydrogen bomb test...we dropped two ATOMIC bombs on Japan...just thought I'd clear that up.

BTW yet again, you are the only one who has used the word "Nazi" so if the shoe fits...

jimHJJ(...or jackboot if you prefer...)

[Florian]

HAHAHA......after the people took over most of the continent you get your boys coming in with russia and england and win after a long hard battle. Try to tell it to all the people laying in Washington.

You are sooooo good......


I am so proud to be an American. WE ARE THE BEST!!!

http://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/capt.ny12205270203.iraq_prisoner_abuse_ny122.jpght tp://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/capt.sge.tps47.260504100520.photo00.default-384x306.jpghttp://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/r713841778.jpghttp://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/r1075941894.jpghttp://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/r2757686002.jpghttp://jvancampen.com/pix/nhphotos/thanks/r3938617266.jpg

[Florian]

Your not one bit better then the people who lived in germany before me. Not one BIT !!!
At least i learn from the mistakes the people before me did, your so bloddy dumb you do it over and over again!

[kexodusc]

What in the blue hell ???
Aldo? That you?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Within this past week I've learned that you blame white people for all the problems in this country and Bush for everything that has ever gone wrong with Katrina. Nobody else had a hand in the Katrina fiasco at all.


Well, it looks like you haven't learned a thing this week. You have wasted your time. what a shame.





I'm sure glad you're not prejudiced. I'd hate to see what you would be like if you were.


Well, if I was, I would talk about the fact that this country has never had a president that was either female, or of color. I would talk about segregation which was initiated by whites, and maintained by whites. I would talk about institutional racism which persists even to this day. I would talk about the inequities in pay, health care, education, and the justice system. I would point out that blacks didn't create segregation, they were victims of it. I would point out that blacks or anyone else didn't get a chance to participate in the writing of the declaration of independence, didn't participate in the creation of the education system, justice system, congress, the senate or any branch of the government. No wonder it fails everyone but the folks that designed it.



so long and thanks for the fish. It's been enlightening.

Make sure you bake it rather than fry it. Its been enlightening for both of us.

[piece-it pete]

You can call me a redneck, I don't mind. Just don't call me - late for dinner [groan].


Absolutly not!

The Atomic bombs, invasion of iraq, threats to North Korea, Invasion of Afganistan etc... add all that up and your not too far away from my past ancestors.


Oh yeah? Wellll.... BUUZZZZZZ - WRONG! Not even close. And don't forget, the bomb was dropped as a direct result of Der Fuehrers' absolute, naked (not even a sock!) war of aggression.

I suppose we should join N Korea in an embrace of brotherly love while dancing a tango with the Taliban.



Anyway, i dont care how much weight you give my opinion. We do more for the well being and safety of this world than the US. Too many people in the US still think we are in the cold war still. LOL.....


Nah, the cold wars' over, we won it. As far as helping and safety, examples please.


PS: Besides its your own stupidity, you guys trained Bin Laden to fight the war against the russians. Too bad the FALSE American PRIDE gets in the way. But i dont blame the people, afterall 54% are against the war and didnt want Bush in the first place.

Bin Laden will get his. My pride isn't false, I assure you. Bush won with a majority.

In a perhaps vain attempt to bring this thread back to a semblence of topic, I'll point out a couple misconceptions I've noticed Europeans have about Americans. Heck some Americans don't know this.

The "biggest" is, Size. Area. The US encompasses 3,539,227 sq mi (9,166,598 sq km). My State, Ohio, one of 50, has 41,222 sq mi (106,765 sq km). Germany in comparison has 137,699 sq mi (356,733 sq km). No, I'm not saying we're better than you.

So what? It means government HAS to be set up differently. Consider: "The United STATES of America". State:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=state

5 a : a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign
______

A sovereign state = a nation. The US is 50 sovereign nations that grouped together and ceded certain powers to the federation (the Federal Gov't).

This has been very successful for us. It is also why Louisianas' Governor is directly responsible for New Orleans, NOT the President.

Who btw does not take the kind of holidays you imagine. Even Clinton had to be blown at his desk!

The next big thing Europeans don't understand: You'all think American conservatives are born evil. I got news for you: we have to work at it. :p

Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Boy T, we must enjoy this (arguing, not NO). Maybe we're just gluttons for punishment :)

LOL, I always keep a roll of gauze just in case you get a good one in.



So local planning and execution is up to the Feds?! When did THAT happen?

When the diaster is too large for local government to handle, FEMA is supposed to be there, ready, and coodinating with the local government. This storm was as large as the state of Louisana itself, and that was a clue right there for FEMA to get prepared in advance.


Agreed it would have been nice to have a competent person in charge of FEMA. It also appears that this caught everyone flat-footed. If this shows anything, it's that the old saying: Familiarity breeds Contempt - is true.

Its unbelieveable that this storm caught anyone flat footed. However I would attribute Mr. Brown lack of experience as a major part of the problem.


Terrorism was at the forefront of everyone's mind.

Yes, while this natural disaster bit them in the a$$



I thought it was the poor and/or minorities as well? Same deal as the buses - many ambulances sitting unused. No matter how you slice it, the local and state gov't failed their people miserably. Mandatory evacuations will be a disaster unto itself - just wait till the National Guard shoots someone.

You can blame the local government for not calling for a mandatory evacuation earlier. However you cannot blame them for the transportation problem. You can call for bus and ambulance drivers, that does not mean they are going to answer. In this case they did not. Even if you had buses, you cannot MAKE folks get on them. I think this should change. I think mandatory evacuations should be strictly enforced, with the arrest of anyone who does not cooperate. The state's actions were a complete failure and the epitome of disorganization. However FEMA's four day delay, and subsequent lack of organization not only contributing to the death's of many, but to the misery of the survivors.




When a tree falls on my house, I'll call them.

Don't hold your breath, I would probably beat them to your house.





Right now, the gov't on top of the other 5 million very important things they have to do is busy trying to figure out the best way to a) finish cleaning out NO, and b) rebuilding it, along with the oil support and the port itself. Not simple, not easy. Anyone who thinks the top echelon of our gov't has free time right now is not understanding what has/is happened/happening. Generals do not fight in the trenches.

If the generals do not fight in the trenches, then they have plenty of time to account for themselves in front of congress. The folks in the trenches can handle the cleanup and rebuild. You are attempting to give the upper echeleon of our government a pass on this because they are republican. If we had a Democratic president in office right now, would you be singing the same tune? For me, its not a political issue, is a accountability issue. Whether the president is a demo, or repub, I would be angry and want to some heads rolling.


Certainly no one really believes the entire system isn't being overhauled as we speak?? Not just a human disaster, it is also a political one, from top to bottom on every level. I'm sure most politicos actually care about the dead, and I'm positive they ALL want to be popular!

Yes I am sure they want to be popular. However, I think they care about the dead as long as it does make them popular.



Heaven forbid it should be tomorrow. Seems like a good time to pray.

Pete

I am with you on this!

[GMichael]

So long, and thanks for all the fish?

Don't forget your towel.

[piece-it pete]

LOL, I always keep a roll of gauze just in case you get a good one in.


Same here, bud!



When the diaster is too large for local government to handle, FEMA is supposed to be there, ready, and coodinating with the local government. This storm was as large as the state of Louisana itself, and that was a clue right there for FEMA to get prepared in advance.


Agreed, FEMA screwed the pooch as well. It was sadly a systemwide failure, though - not just Federal.


Its unbelieveable that this storm caught anyone flat footed. However I would attribute Mr. Brown lack of experience as a major part of the problem.


O yes, search & rescue and cleanup.


Yes, while this natural disaster bit them in the a$$


It certainly did!



You can blame the local government for not calling for a mandatory evacuation earlier. However you cannot blame them for the transportation problem. You can call for bus and ambulance drivers, that does not mean they are going to answer. In this case they did not. Even if you had buses, you cannot MAKE folks get on them. I think this should change. I think mandatory evacuations should be strictly enforced, with the arrest of anyone who does not cooperate. The state's actions were a complete failure and the epitome of disorganization. However FEMA's four day delay, and subsequent lack of organization not only contributing to the death's of many, but to the misery of the survivors.


I DO blame them for their awful preparation. The Mayor and Governor CAN order their employees. Why is Florida so well prepared for hurricanes?



Don't hold your breath, I would probably beat them to your house. !


LOL!

Boy rereading my statement it sounded a lot rougher than was intended - tongue-in-cheek.




If the generals do not fight in the trenches, then they have plenty of time to account for themselves in front of congress. The folks in the trenches can handle the cleanup and rebuild. You are attempting to give the upper echeleon of our government a pass on this because they are republican. If we had a Democratic president in office right now, would you be singing the same tune? For me, its not a political issue, is a accountability issue. Whether the president is a demo, or repub, I would be angry and want to some heads rolling.


I am NOT giving anyone a pass. Heads will roll. AT LEAST let them clean up the city and get the master rebuild plan in place! Generals are more important than the foot soldiers, and right now the last thing they need to worry about is a lynch mob.

Although maybe it'll be better than that. I was extremely impressed by the 9-11 commision. I get the feeling though that this will be bitterly partisan - nasty.

I am very conservative by nature. But like most of us I will not tolerate incompetence and will however begrugingly recognise excellence. Just as I would have done my duty if called to by Clinton (the last one, or the next one? ;) ) I will criticise Bush. However I have learned that if not careful it will be seized upon and ran with.



Yes I am sure they want to be popular. However, I think they care about the dead as long as it does make them popular.


Again, probably most. I have come across some standout politicians in my readings (how about a Dem - Sam Rayburn?) and am sure there is a certain percentage who are genuinely concerned. It may be more than we think.



I am with you on this!

Amen to that. It looks like Rita will miss Louisiana completely - it must have worked.

Pete

[markw]

later. got some fences to mend.

back later with response.

[markw]

Well, it looks like you haven't learned a thing this week. You have wasted your time. what a shame.Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. The way I see it is that there is more than enough blame to be shared between the local, state and federal handling fd this situation befroe, during andafter the hurricane. If I understand, you want to hang it all on the feds. Correct?


Well, if I was, I would talk about the fact that this country has never had a president that was either female, or of color. I would talk about segregation which was initiated by whites, and maintained by whites. I would talk about institutional racism which persists even to this day. I would talk about the inequities in pay, health care, education, and the justice system. I would point out that blacks didn't create segregation, they were victims of it. I would point out that blacks or anyone else didn't get a chance to participate in the writing of the declaration of independence, didn't participate in the creation of the education system, justice system, congress, the senate or any branch of the government. No wonder it fails everyone but the folks that designed it..When this government was laid out, slaverty was a MAJOR bone of contention. Most people present did NOT own slaves and were dead set against slavery. There were attempts to outlaw it in the very beginning but the southern states fought it. Many fierce debates took place over this but the Southern states wouldn't buy into the new country if they initially outlawed slavery.

To get the ball rolling, the powers that be let it slide for now knowing that it would be dealt with in the future. Without that concession, America would not have gotten of fthe ground.

And, about 100 years later, it was outlawed. There was even talk of sending them back to Africa but that was turned down and, after seeing what's going on in Africa today, I'd say that the descendents are much better off.

Since then it's been catch up time. As your readings showed, ther were more than a few successful blacks that managed to pvercome prejudice. Many of them reached out to others to pull them up. But, it's hard to undo years of abuse and it can't be done overnight.

In the 50's and 60's, the US started to reach out and seriosuly help equaize matters. BTW, most of the issues you liketo talk about were pretty much contained to the south, which never quite got over losing the civil war and being forced to get rid of their slaves. Essentially, this ruined the southern economy.

Now, today, there are opportunities for blacks to educate themselves. More funding is available for them than there is for whites and not every white is born to a rich family. Believe me on this one. Go to school, work hard and remember, ebonics may be fine for their buddies it's still not accepted in the acedemic and business world.

All they need do is availal themselves of the multudinous opportunies for education, work hard and make an attempt to be "one of the guys" by doing what everyone else does. Yeah, it's laying the game. Whites have to do it too. It doesn't require giving up ones culture but blending in with the existing one. By trying to force one culture on the mainstream and expecting hem to bend to accomodate them, well, it's like a salmon swimming upstream. Salmon fight hard swimming upstream, get screwed and die.

Once safely embedded in the system, it's time to try to affect changes which will benefit all, not just some. To try to do it from the outside by refusing to learn the language abd blend in merely breeds resentment and keeps them down.

But, once one resigns themselves that to play the system you've got to learn the system to be in the system, it generally works out and one treches others how to do it as well.

The system is pretty forgiving of race but it does come down hard on those who try to force change form the outside.


Make sure you bake it rather than fry it. Its been enlightening for both of us.I prefer my salmon broiled with a little olive oil and fresh dill.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I DO blame them for their awful preparation. The Mayor and Governor CAN order their employees. Why is Florida so well prepared for hurricanes?

Pete, he did ORDER them to show up. They did not. My guess is they gathered their families up and left with everyone else. This is just speculation, but it makes sense.

Can anyone say Jeb Bush! Big brother was there for little brother in 2004 also. Also look what is happening in Texas. This proves that FEMA CAN do its job effectively. This is what they were supposed to do in NO.






LOL!

Boy rereading my statement it sounded a lot rougher than was intended - tongue-in-cheek.

You were being harsh?? I thought you were being funny. I laughed when I read it!







I am NOT giving anyone a pass. Heads will roll. AT LEAST let them clean up the city and get the master rebuild plan in place! Generals are more important than the foot soldiers, and right now the last thing they need to worry about is a lynch mob.

Not one of these plans is Bush doing directly. I still say now is the time. You know Americans have the attention span of a MTV junky. The longer time passes, the less accountability will take place. When Clinton was in office, we had things brewing in the middle east that needed his attention. That didn't stop the lynch mob from going after him. Now is the time, later is too late.



Although maybe it'll be better than that. I was extremely impressed by the 9-11 commision. I get the feeling though that this will be bitterly partisan - nasty.

I hope it doesn't become partisan, but I know it will. However I hope that it brings to light this good ole boy cronism that has been putting unqualified people in positions of power.


I am very conservative by nature. But like most of us I will not tolerate incompetence and will however begrugingly recognise excellence. Just as I would have done my duty if called to by Clinton (the last one, or the next one? ;) ) I will criticise Bush. However I have learned that if not careful it will be seized upon and ran with.

I am not pleased with Bush's performance, but I am not a Bush hater. I think Bush's role in this is that he appointed somebody as a good ole boy favor, and the person was not qualified to do the job. His lack of experience caused him to act too slow, which definately costs lives. Therefore I believe that Bush has alot to account for.



Again, probably most. I have come across some standout politicians in my readings (how about a Dem - Sam Rayburn?) and am sure there is a certain percentage who are genuinely concerned. It may be more than we think.

You have more faith in the system than I do. I am sure that some care, but if it doesn't add up to votes, name recognition, or cash, I am sure they care less. Working in television affords you the oportunity to see politicians in a light that most folks never see. I have seen some more concerned with how they are lit, than the subject matter they're going to discuss.





Amen to that. It looks like Rita will miss Louisiana completely - it must have worked.

Pete

The prayers of the righteous availeth much!

[Resident Loser]

...did someone mention profit?

http://www.happinessonline.org/InfectiousGreed/p25.htm

jimHJJ(...let he who is without sin...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. The way I see it is that there is more than enough blame to be shared between the local, state and federal handling fd this situation befroe, during andafter the hurricane. If I understand, you want to hang it all on the feds. Correct?

Incorrect. Please go back and read what I wrote. That is not what I wrote.


When this government was laid out, slaverty was a MAJOR bone of contention. Most people present did NOT own slaves and were dead set against slavery. There were attempts to outlaw it in the very beginning but the southern states fought it. Many fierce debates took place over this but the Southern states wouldn't buy into the new country if they initially outlawed slavery.

To get the ball rolling, the powers that be let it slide for now knowing that it would be dealt with in the future. Without that concession, America would not have gotten of fthe ground.

Very familar with this story. So just because we were talking about property(which was really someones life) it was okay to allow a certain group of people(blacks slaves) to suffer just to get this country started. Do you think whites would allow this to be done on them? I think not. This country comes from such noble beginnings huh. It was built on the suffering of others for the comfort of some. Those that were against slavery thought it was more important that this country get started, than to worry about the lives of some slave. Such noble hyprocrites.


And, about 100 years later, it was outlawed. There was even talk of sending them back to Africa but that was turned down and, after seeing what's going on in Africa today, I'd say that the descendents are much better off.

Most Africans I know are pretty proud of their country, faults and all. You do not know if anyone would be better off or not, no one knows what Africa would be today if europeans had never came. Africa is messed up because of european intervention and exploitation, I am sure they would have done just fine without them.


Since then it's been catch up time. As your readings showed, ther were more than a few successful blacks that managed to pvercome prejudice. Many of them reached out to others to pull them up. But, it's hard to undo years of abuse and it can't be done overnight.

They didn't overcome it, they tolerated it because that is how the American system works. You wanna play within a system controlled by a certain segment of the population, you have to take some abuse.


In the 50's and 60's, the US started to reach out and seriosuly help equaize matters. BTW, most of the issues you liketo talk about were pretty much contained to the south, which never quite got over losing the civil war and being forced to get rid of their slaves. Essentially, this ruined the southern economy.

The US didn't reach out at all. Some people reached out, while others fought bitterly for the status quo. The declaration of independence wasn't written in the south. The justice, education, and health systems were not created in the south. To make this purely a southern issue is a little misleading.


Now, today, there are opportunities for blacks to educate themselves. More funding is available for them than there is for whites and not every white is born to a rich family. Believe me on this one. Go to school, work hard and remember, ebonics may be fine for their buddies it's still not accepted in the acedemic and business world.

Mark sorry but you are just plain wrong on this. The majority of poor schools in this country have minorities as the primary student population. That is a fact. The majority of wealthy school districts have a mostly white student body. That is also a fact. I know that not all whites are born rich, but a white child, poor or rich, can say I want to be president, or CEO of a fortune 50 company, and there is a VERY good chance it can happen. No black child can hope for this, at least not right now. I went to school, got straight A's all through school, worked hard, never spoke ebonics, went to college, got my degree, and guess what? I still got greeted with the corporate glass ceiling(I am sure you have heard of this). Thousands, maybe millions of minority professionals have fell to the same fate. The only way for them to prosper is outside the corporate world. Whites have a choice, blacks do not always.


All they need do is availal themselves of the multudinous opportunies for education, work hard and make an attempt to be "one of the guys" by doing what everyone else does. Yeah, it's laying the game. Whites have to do it too. It doesn't require giving up ones culture but blending in with the existing one. By trying to force one culture on the mainstream and expecting hem to bend to accomodate them, well, it's like a salmon swimming upstream. Salmon fight hard swimming upstream, get screwed and die.

Whites do not have to "lay the game". They invented the game. They alter the game at their own whim. So let me get this straight. A black man has to abandon his culture, adopt the white culture in order to suceed. Man, whites have it good here, the don't have to abandon their culture to succeed. Mark, you cannot blend into anyone elses culture without leaving your own behind. I know that's not a concept you understand because this isn't being forced on you. However layin the game does not provide hope for equality in the workplace. As I said earlier, you can "lay the game" and still get a concussion from the glass ceiling. That is something that whites do not have to face, unless you are a white woman.



Once safely embedded in the system, it's time to try to affect changes which will benefit all, not just some. To try to do it from the outside by refusing to learn the language abd blend in merely breeds resentment and keeps them down.

Yeah, as many blacks that have embedded into the system, why is it still the same?. The only way blacks or latino can change anything is to pool their resources together, and do business with one another. The powers that be will follow the money, that is the way this system can work for minorities. Leaving their indentitites behind, and trying to play white guy is not going to give them much success. Too many have tried, too many have failed. The system eats minorities alive.


But, once one resigns themselves that to play the system you've got to learn the system to be in the system, it generally works out and one treches others how to do it as well.

The system is pretty forgiving of race but it does come down hard on those who try to force change form the outside.

I prefer my salmon broiled with a little olive oil and fresh dill.

Okay, now you are plain dellusional. Did you just say that the system is forgiving of race? Okay, when did we have a black or latino president. Why have we only 3 CEO out 500 companies in the fortune 500. Why does the glass ceiling exist? Let me hip you to a few things.

Last year in August 20/20 did a special on race relation in America. First, they sent 4 black and 4 whites guys into a neighborhood to look for an apartment. To remove anything that would introduce other biases, they all had the same education, same kind of job, Identical pay. They, in conjunction with the producers picked certain apartments to checkout in a certain area. When the white guys made an appointment, all of them got to see all of the apartment. When the black men showed up, they were told the same apartments were taken. When another white guy visited the apartment AFTER the blacks, they were shown the apartment. They did this is several neighborhoods with the same result playing out. Yes, the system is forgiving of color

Next example involved looking for a car. When the same guys went on at least 10 different car lots, the white guys were helped immediately, and it took as long a 20 minutes in one case to get a salesmen. When they sent the blacks on the lot first, and the whites after, the whites where IN ALL CASES helped first. I am sure color wasn't an issue in this huh.

Let's talk employment. They had 5 black women and men send in a VERY good resume in their natural names(African first names, common last names), and in fake names like Tom, Betty, and Ann. All five of the fake names got interview call backs. None of the original names got call backs. Twenty major corporation were sent these resume, and 20 small business were also. The same results played out time and time again. I am sure that race played no part in this.

Mark, you are a white guy, with a white perspective and experience, and have absolutely no understanding of what minorities have to go through once they step out of their doors. What you do not seem to get is that the play by the rules and you'll succeed may work for whites, but it doesn't always for minorities. The playing field is not level for everyone, or your advice would work in all cases. It does not in the real world. I think what needs to happen to you is that you need to become a minority, and walk in their shoes for a while. I am SURE you would change your tune quickly when you found out that you have to do twice as much as a white, do it twice as good, and that still may not guarantee your success. In other words, its not as easy as you try and make it, even for the successful ones. Your problem is (and RL also) is you tend to dismiss institutional racism, the glass ceiling, and unequal access to the top because its not anything you have ever faced in your lives. RL perspective is just plain stereotypical, yours is not reality at all.

[markw]

Heck, even a lot of whites don't succeed.

Blacks are getting through, though. I haven't done the numbers but from what see in many offices in there a lot of blacks as well as Indians, Asians and the like. A lot of women are rising too, particularly black women. ALatinos are jusrt really entering that area and are even as we speak working their way up the ladder. You don't expect then to start at the top, do ya?

One thing I DO notice is that, in the world of big business, everyone speaks English. Well, except for down neck (Newark) where the Portugese and Brasilians have their own little sub-culture thing going. People can be born, live their lives and die there without speaking English there. But, if they want to leave for bigger and better things, they have to do things somewhat different. ...learn English for one.

That's a good place to start when blending into society. Speaking the language and fitting in. Playing the game. It 's done by everyone. Why should someone get a free ride just because they don't speak the same language or have a different culture which, BTW, has no bearing in the workplace. If they tried to force mainstream big business to speak their language and adapt to their customs, they would still be on the outside looking in.

It's not like the school systems don't offer enough classes in how to speak proper English. I'm ofthe mindthat this bi-lingual crap has pretty much ruined the school system. Heck, teach then the language over a year ot two and then mainline 'em. They don't do that crap in other countries. Why here?

If that's too much for some people then they will have to do like they do down neck. Remain in their own little corner of the world and marinate in their culture.

and, don't feel bad. my resume gets "lost" because of all the experience I had. ...either that or it's because I'm too old. Nah.... never happen.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Heck, even a lot of whites don't succeed.

Yes, but that is their choice. Minorities are not afforded that choice.


Blacks are getting through, though. I haven't done the numbers but from what see in many offices in there a lot of blacks as well as Indians, Asians and the like. A lot of women are rising too, particularly black women. ALatinos are jusrt really entering that area and are even as we speak working their way up the ladder. You don't expect then to start at the top, do ya?

Mark, you are looking in your own world. The larger picture does not bare this out. The reality is blacks are starting their own business at more than 6 times whites, and 2 times latino and asian. They are doing this to get out of corporate America with its glass ceiling on minorities. They are doing it because they are frustrated with the system as it is currently designed, and want to take their future in their own hands. That is exactly what I did, and when I did well, I went back to the corporate world. Being independently empowered meant that I didn't need to excel in a system that was slanted towards one segment of our population.




One thing I DO notice is that, in the world of big business, everyone speaks English. Well, except for down neck (Newark) where the Portugese and Brasilians have their own little sub-culture thing going. People can be born, live their lives and die there without speaking English there. But, if they want to leave for bigger and better things, they have to do things somewhat different. ...learn English for one.

Mark, blacks know english. Many latino's know english. Knowing english doesn't deal with institutional racism. Just knowing english doesn't level the playing field.


That's a good place to start when blending into society. Speaking the language and fitting in. Playing the game. It 's done by everyone. Why should someone get a free ride just because they don't speak the same language or have a different culture which, BTW, has no bearing in the workplace. If they tried to force mainstream big business to speak their language and adapt to their customs, they would still be on the outside looking in.

You have addressed foreigners, what about minorities born in this country. Their first langauge is english. Why hasn't there been a latino president, or a black one? Why is it taking so long for english speaking minorities to get positions of power in the same degree as whites? This is not a language issue, its racism, fear, and ignorance of minorities.


It's not like the school systems don't offer enough classes in how to speak proper English. I'm ofthe mindthat this bi-lingual crap has pretty much ruined the school system. Heck, teach then the language over a year ot two and then mainline 'em. They don't do that crap in other countries. Why here?

Did whites learn the language of the Indians when they came here? Or did they come here and force the Indians to learn theirs. This is what I mean by changing the rules.



If that's too much for some people then they will have to do like they do down neck. Remain in their own little corner of the world and marinate in their culture.

Whites didn't do that when they came here. No, they forced everyone to do what they do.


and, don't feel bad. my resume gets "lost" because of all the experience I had. ...either that or it's because I'm too old. Nah.... never happen.

How do they know how old you are? The bottom line is that the resume' were trashed because you have to have a "white" or mainstream names to get the interview. Why do minorities have to shed every piece of their culture and indentity just to get a job? Whites don't have to do it.

[markw]

Again, people cannot expect to be pushed up the corporate ladders simply because of their ethnicity, be it white or otherwise. It's a long, hard climb up that ladder, sometimes on the backs of others.

It also helps to be excellent at what one does. ...far, far better than anyone else. That's what should determine get the job, not ones color or race.

When push comes to shove, people are going to hire either the best qualified for the job or, all else being equal, who they feel most comfortable with. That's only human nature. To deny it is foolish. I'm sure you would do the same, right? If you had two equally qualified people in front of you, would you hire the Latino or the honky?

In this litigious society andwith all the liberal lawywers out there, to do otherwise would be foolish.

Hey, when I go with the family to Brasil, not being able to intelligently converse in Portuguese limits me greatly. The longer I stay, the more sinks in.

But, you can bet that If I were going to make it a permanent home there (and that's not totally out of the picture in a few years) I'd be much. much better at it since I would be immersed in it longer. ..and the culture but that doesn't seem to be too much of an issue. I do make a pretty mean caipirinha, though.

As far as some of your quotes above, you say we didn't adapt to the native language of the Indians. Not that I can excuse what was done to the Indians, are you saying Latino's want to do to us what we did to the Indians?

And, as far as that goes and any insinuation of blood on my hands, let me restate that the native language of Central/South America was NOT Spanish 600 or more years ago.

[dean_martin]

Watch at your own risk;

http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2678976&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=product&launchVal=1&data=null


http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2678978&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=product&launchVal=1&data=null

Ok, so maybe it seems that I'm trying to perpetuate this argument over local responsibility and federal response, but I think there are more facts relevant to this argument that haven't come out yet. It appears from the article below that Congress directed the Army Corps of Engineers to build the levee system to withstand a Category 3 Hurricane. The first point to be made is that protection of New Orleans from hurricane-associated flooding and storm surges was the resposibility of the federal government. Because of New Orleans' unique locale, it is subject to much more federal involvement, encroachment, regulation, etc. than a typical inland, land-locked city. As I've referenced here before, the commerce clause of the US Constitution is a huge sword thanks to US Supreme Court decisions beginning in the 30's and 40's and through the 60's. The commerce clause was used by Congress in the 30s and 40s to help railroads expand through favorable legislation. It has been used by Congress to help labor and it was used in the 60s to pass civil rights legislation. So, what does the commerce clause have to do with NO? NO is on a major waterway which is vital to interestate commerce. Congress basically has a blank check to do whatever it wants to do or thinks it needs to do in NO.

A careful study of the article below also shows that the levee system should have withstood Hurricane Katrina even though Katrina was a cat 4. I've found it interesting all along that it was the lake levees and not the river levees that were breached. In my first response to this post, I mentioned my anti-government conspiracy theorist friend. I'm a little hesitant to say what else he told me, but I find it too intriguing in light of the article below not to. There were early ear-witness reports of explosions in the vicinity of the 17th St. Canal levee and in other areas of downtown NO. You can find these references buried in some of the mainstream press reports that inlcude interviews with locals. They're all over some of the more rabid conspiracy type pseudo news sites. Just keep this in the back of your mind as you read the article from the Washington Post.

Experts Say Faulty Levees Caused Much of Flooding

By Michael Grunwald and Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, September 21, 2005; A01



NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 20 -- Louisiana's top hurricane experts have rejected the official explanations for the floodwall collapses that inundated much of New Orleans, concluding that Hurricane Katrina's storm surges were much smaller than authorities have suggested and that the city's flood- protection system should have kept most of the city dry.

The Army Corps of Engineers has said that Katrina was just too massive for a system that was not intended to protect the city from a storm greater than a Category 3 hurricane, and that the floodwall failures near Lake Pontchartrain were caused by extraordinary surges that overtopped the walls.

But with the help of complex computer models and stark visual evidence, scientists and engineers at Louisiana State University's Hurricane Center have concluded that Katrina's surges did not come close to overtopping those barriers. That would make faulty design, inadequate construction or some combination of the two the likely cause of the breaching of the floodwalls along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals -- and the flooding of most of New Orleans.

In the weeks since Katrina drowned this low-lying city, there has been an intense focus on the chaotic government response to the flood. But Ivor van Heerden, the Hurricane Center's deputy director, said the real scandal of Katrina is the "catastrophic structural failure" of barriers that should have handled the hurricane with relative ease.

"We are absolutely convinced that those floodwalls were never overtopped," said van Heerden, who also runs LSU's Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes.

In an interview Tuesday, Corps spokesman Paul Johnston said the agency still believes that storm surges overtopped the concrete floodwalls near the lake, then undermined the earthen levees on which they were perched, setting the stage for the breaches that emptied the lake into the city.

Johnston said the Corps intends to launch an investigation to make sure it is correct about that scenario. But he emphasized that Katrina was a Category 4 hurricane when it smashed into the Gulf Coast, whereas Congress authorized the Corps to protect New Orleans against a storm only up to Category 3. "The event exceeded the design," Johnston said.

The center's researchers agree that Katrina's initial surge from the southeast overwhelmed floodwalls along the New Orleans Industrial Canal, flooding the city's Lower Ninth Ward as well as St. Bernard Parish. They believe that a little-used Army Corps navigation canal known as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet helped amplify that surge, although they acknowledge that this surge was larger than the system was designed to control.

But the researchers have strong evidence that Katrina's subsequent surge from the north was several feet shy of the height that would have been necessary to overtop the 17th Street and London Avenue floodwalls. It was the failures of those floodwalls that emptied the lake into the rest of the city, filling most of New Orleans like a soup bowl.

On a tour Tuesday, researchers showed numerous indications that Katrina's surge was not as tall as the lakefront's protections. They showed a "debris line" that indicates the top height of Katrina's waves was at least four feet below the crest of Lake Pontchartrain's levees. They also pointed out how the breached floodwalls near the lake showed no signs of overtopping -- no splattering of mud, no drip lines and no erosion at their bases. They contended that the pattern of destruction behind the breaches was consistent with a localized "pressure burst," rather than widespread overtopping.

The center has also completed a computerized "hindcast" of Katrina, which has confirmed the evidence before their eyes. Their model indicates that most of the surge around the lake and its nearby canals was less than 11 feet above sea level, and that none of it should have been greater than 13 feet. The Army Corps's flood-protection system for New Orleans was designed to handle surges of more than 14 feet above sea level.

"This should not have been a big deal for these floodwalls," said oceanographer G. Paul Kemp, a hurricane expert who runs LSU's Natural Systems Modeling Laboratory. "It should have been a modest challenge. There's no way this should have exceeded the capacity."

The center's researchers said it is too early to say whether the breaches were caused by poor design, faulty construction or some combination. But van Heerden said the floodwalls at issue -- massive concrete slabs mounted on steel sheet pilings -- looked more like the sound barriers found on major highways. He also suggested that the slabs should have been interlocked, and that the canals they were supposed to protect should have had floodgates to keep out water from the lake.

Former representative Bob Livingston (R-La.), who helped lead the charge for Corps projects in Louisiana when he chaired the House Appropriations Committee, noted that the earthen levees along Lake Pontchartrain had all held, while the concrete floodwalls had failed. He was especially concerned about the 17th Street barrier, saying it "shouldn't have broken."

"I don't know if it's bad construction or bad design, but whoever the contractor is has a problem," said Livingston, now a lobbyist on Capitol Hill.

Former senator J. Bennett Johnston (D-La.) said he remembers numerous briefings from Corps officials about the danger of a hurricane overtopping the New Orleans levees. But he said he never envisioned a scenario like this one. "This came as a surprise," he said.

The Corps has not identified the contractors who built the floodgates that failed; Paul Johnston said there will be a full investigation into the breaches.

Congress authorizes flood- control projects -- after receiving recommendations from the Corps -- and the Corps oversees their design and construction.

John M. Barry -- who criticized the Corps in "Rising Tide," a history of the Mississippi River flood of 1927 -- said that if Katrina did not exceed the design capacity of the New Orleans levees, the federal government may bear ultimate responsibility for this disaster.

"If this is true, then the loss of life and the devastation in much of New Orleans is no more a natural disaster than a surgeon killing a patient by failing to suture an artery would be a natural death," Barry said. "And that surgeon would be culpable."

Glasser reported from Washington.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Again, people cannot expect to be pushed up the corporate ladders simply because of their ethnicity, be it white or otherwise. It's a long, hard climb up that ladder, sometimes on the backs of others.

Yes and they should not be held back because of the ethnicity either. That seems to be case more often than not.


It also helps to be excellent at what one does. ...far, far better than anyone else. That's what should determine get the job, not ones color or race.

Yes, but for minorities that's apparently not enough. Level playing fields are required if one is to just use excellence as a measure.


When push comes to shove, people are going to hire either the best qualified for the job or, all else being equal, who they feel most comfortable with. That's only human nature. To deny it is foolish. I'm sure you would do the same, right? If you had two equally qualified people in front of you, would you hire the Latino or the honky?

First, for me I hire people, not colors. If had two equally qualified people in front of me, either one has a chance. Most whites automatically assume they would be most comfortable around other whites, that is the reason they tend to hire other whites, qualified or not.


In this litigious society andwith all the liberal lawywers out there, to do otherwise would be foolish.

What does this have to do with any thing?


Hey, when I go with the family to Brasil, not being able to intelligently converse in Portuguese limits me greatly. The longer I stay, the more sinks in.

Lets say you do learn the language, but because you are white, you are denied oportunity after oportunity. Not because you are not qualified, just because you are white. How would you feel about that? Would you be as casual about the issue as you are now?


But, you can bet that If I were going to make it a permanent home there (and that's not totally out of the picture in a few years) I'd be much. much better at it since I would be immersed in it longer. ..and the culture but that doesn't seem to be too much of an issue. I do make a pretty mean caipirinha, though.

My question to you once again would be, would you move there if you knew that because you were white you would be discrimminated against?


As far as some of your quotes above, you say we didn't adapt to the native language of the Indians. Not that I can excuse what was done to the Indians, are you saying Latino's want to do to us what we did to the Indians?

No, what I am saying is whites came to this country and changed the game. The didn't adopt, they forced the indians to adopt their culture, or die. Now that whites are in control, they want everyone to come here and adopt their way of life and culture. The arrogance and smugness of this attitude is startling, but its reality.


And, as far as that goes and any insinuation of blood on my hands, let me restate that the native language of Central/South America was NOT Spanish 600 or more years ago.

The language of this country 600 years ago wasn't english either.

Did you know that the lives of white people are more valuable than any other race? Kill a white person, and the chances of you going to death row are VERY high. Kill a black or latino, your chances of getting life in prison are much better. Where's the fairness and equality of that? As I have said, if you build the system, it will probably work for you, but now one else.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050922/ap_on_re_us/california_death_penalty

[piece-it pete]

Pete, he did ORDER them to show up. They did not. My guess is they gathered their families up and left with everyone else. This is just speculation, but it makes sense.

I think if true that shows the truth that much of this issue falls squarely on the locals.


Can anyone say Jeb Bush! Big brother was there for little brother in 2004 also. Also look what is happening in Texas. This proves that FEMA CAN do its job effectively. This is what they were supposed to do in NO.

The state of Florida does a great job preparing for the hurricanes. Jeb has a lot to do with it, he seems to be an excellent administrator. If LA had done as well the subsequent flubs of FEMA wouldn't have been much of an issue.



You were being harsh?? I thought you were being funny. I laughed when I read it!

I laughed when I wrote it! It was just one of those things - when I reread it I thought it might be taken wrong :( .


Not one of these plans is Bush doing directly. I still say now is the time. You know Americans have the attention span of a MTV junky. The longer time passes, the less accountability will take place. When Clinton was in office, we had things brewing in the middle east that needed his attention. That didn't stop the lynch mob from going after him. Now is the time, later is too late.

You mean to pull Bush in front of a Congressional inquiry?! He'll never do that. When I said generals I meant the folks directly in charge, the people who should have the real answers to what happened and how to fix it.

Clinton personally committed perjury while a sitting President. There was not a disaster like NO going on, the ME is ALWAYS messed up.

Boy, pretty soon we'll stop spelling out words and talk in abbr, NO, LA, ME, FEMA, lol.



I hope it doesn't become partisan, but I know it will. However I hope that it brings to light this good ole boy cronism that has been putting unqualified people in positions of power.

Well it's partisan - as in 11 Republicans. Not because the Dems weren't invited, but 'cause they're boycotting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/21/AR2005092102091.html?referrer=email



I am not pleased with Bush's performance, but I am not a Bush hater. I think Bush's role in this is that he appointed somebody as a good ole boy favor, and the person was not qualified to do the job. His lack of experience caused him to act too slow, which definately costs lives. Therefore I believe that Bush has alot to account for.

I agree.



You have more faith in the system than I do. I am sure that some care, but if it doesn't add up to votes, name recognition, or cash, I am sure they care less. Working in television affords you the oportunity to see politicians in a light that most folks never see. I have seen some more concerned with how they are lit, than the subject matter they're going to discuss.

One of the reasons I am conservative is that I don't have faith in people, and systems are built by them.

What I am saying is one would have to be mighty hard-hearted to not feel anything looking at the victims, and I'm sure more than the usual number (however small) actually care.



The prayers of the righteous availeth much!


I hope we're righteous then! ;)

http://www.weather.com/maps/news/atlstorm18/evactuationorder_large.html

Pete

[piece-it pete]

Dean,

Ouch! If that ends up being true (the Corps botched the levies) THAT is worthy of a full-blown investigation.

I lived very close to the Mississippi at one time, on the Illinois side of St Louis, and the levy system there was basically a pile of gravel covered with a skin of dirt/grass.

One time the water came close to topping it. While it held, walking along the top (a truly scary experience, even when normal it is "mighty") there was sinkholes in it.

Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think if true that shows the truth that much of this issue falls squarely on the locals.

Sorry Pete, I don't buy it. Do you see what is happening in Florida and Texas? FEMA has helicopters, food, water, buses, and shelters READY BEFORE the storm hit. That was not done for NO. There was no food or water for those at the convention center, or the superdome. That could have been flown in immediately after the storm passed, not five days later. There were no helicopters waiting, no buses, and no response for FIVE days. Coodination between the local(who where obviously overwhelmed) and FEMA was non existant, which is not the case in Florida and Texas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/chitribts/20050923/ts_chicagotrib/offerofbusesfellbetweenthecracks



The state of Florida does a great job preparing for the hurricanes. Jeb has a lot to do with it, he seems to be an excellent administrator. If LA had done as well the subsequent flubs of FEMA wouldn't have been much of an issue.

Pete, he is prepared because of the help of FEMA. They had four hurricanes go through there in 2004, so they are well versed in being prepared for this. Jeb doesn't deserve any credit for this, they have a long history of hurricanes in that state. But keep in mind, when FEMA fails, it can be disasterous to the recovery after a diaster. It took 5 days for FEMA to act after hurricane andrew, and that may have cost elder Bush his re-election. There are stiking simularities between FEMA inept response after andrew, and after katrina.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653_pf.html




You mean to pull Bush in front of a Congressional inquiry?! He'll never do that. When I said generals I meant the folks directly in charge, the people who should have the real answers to what happened and how to fix it.

He took responsibility, he should go himself. He hired Brown with the full knowledge that he had no experience. He folded FEMA into homeland security, a department that is totally pre-occupied with terrorism. Lets face it, we have more hurricanes than terror attacks in this country.


Clinton personally committed perjury while a sitting President. There was not a disaster like NO going on, the ME is ALWAYS messed up.

Bush lied to America, and to the world on WMD in Iraq. He knew the evidence was flimsy, but he told Colin Powell to bring it before the UN anyway. So who was more agregious? A man getting a knob job in the white house, or a man making a knowingly poor deciscion that has cost over 1900 lives? That answer is pretty clear to me.


Boy, pretty soon we'll stop spelling out words and talk in abbr, NO, LA, ME, FEMA, lol.

LOL. I think a whole knew language could be created in abbreviations.



Well it's partisan - as in 11 Republicans. Not because the Dems weren't invited, but 'cause they're boycotting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/21/AR2005092102091.html?referrer=email

I think they are right for boycotting. Can your really trust a republican led(or any party led) investigation into a republican presidents appointee? It should be a independent investigation with both parties agreeing on who leads the investigation. If I were the demo's I wouldn't trust the repub for a second. And if the tide was in reverse, I still wouldn't trust any party to fairly investigate a member of their own party.




One of the reasons I am conservative is that I don't have faith in people, and systems are built by them.

Well said, and I'd like to add that I don't have faith in the people that run the system either.




What I am saying is one would have to be mighty hard-hearted to not feel anything looking at the victims, and I'm sure more than the usual number (however small) actually care.

I wouldn't say they are hard hearted, just not touched by it. If there is no press, no cash, no possible vote, then I don't think it gets their attention. There are perhaps some exceptions, but I have mostly seen aloofness.






I hope we're righteous then! ;)

http://www.weather.com/maps/news/atlstorm18/evactuationorder_large.html

Pete

I think so.

[piece-it pete]

Sorry Pete, I don't buy it. Do you see what is happening in Florida and Texas? FEMA has helicopters, food, water, buses, and shelters READY BEFORE the storm hit. That was not done for NO. There was no food or water for those at the convention center, or the superdome. That could have been flown in immediately after the storm passed, not five days later. There were no helicopters waiting, no buses, and no response for FIVE days. Coodination between the local(who where obviously overwhelmed) and FEMA was non existant, which is not the case in Florida and Texas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/chitribts/20050923/ts_chicagotrib/offerofbusesfellbetweenthecracks


It's after NO - things are different now.

Time is passing, things are clearing up for me. I agree that NO was originally blown off 'cause of the historical poor & black thing. This was DEFINATELY the locals' fault. The slow response from FEMA was ultimately Bushes' fault.



Pete, he is prepared because of the help of FEMA. They had four hurricanes go through there in 2004, so they are well versed in being prepared for this. Jeb doesn't deserve any credit for this, they have a long history of hurricanes in that state. But keep in mind, when FEMA fails, it can be disasterous to the recovery after a diaster. It took 5 days for FEMA to act after hurricane andrew, and that may have cost elder Bush his re-election. There are stiking simularities between FEMA inept response after andrew, and after katrina.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653_pf.html

Jeb runs a state that appears to be about 5000% better governed than LA. Regardless if it was before he got in, it still is.

Of course it helps to be able to call the President on his personal cell phone, but that is generally considered a political plus.


He took responsibility, he should go himself. He hired Brown with the full knowledge that he had no experience. He folded FEMA into homeland security, a department that is totally pre-occupied with terrorism. Lets face it, we have more hurricanes than terror attacks in this country.

Agreed the buck stops with him. But realisticly there is no way he'll agree to go before any commission.


Bush lied to America, and to the world on WMD in Iraq. He knew the evidence was flimsy, but he told Colin Powell to bring it before the UN anyway. So who was more agregious? A man getting a knob job in the white house, or a man making a knowingly poor deciscion that has cost over 1900 lives? That answer is pretty clear to me.

Poor decision (arguably) vs perjury. Legal vs illegal. Very cut and dry. Perjury is serious.


I think they are right for boycotting. Can your really trust a republican led(or any party led) investigation into a republican presidents appointee? It should be a independent investigation with both parties agreeing on who leads the investigation. If I were the demo's I wouldn't trust the repub for a second. And if the tide was in reverse, I still wouldn't trust any party to fairly investigate a member of their own party.

Speaking realisticly, they know darn well it won't do a thing, they're just looking towards the '06 election cycle. Agreed, I know, the Reps are hardly going to crucify their leader.


Well said, and I'd like to add that I don't have faith in the people that run the system either.

No kidding, thank God for checks and balances.

I'm very very worried that we are OK with the military becoming the boss of 1st resort here at home. And it amazes me that after seeing the breakdown of gov't on all levels with NO we want MORE gov't. We must be hard learners!


I wouldn't say they are hard hearted, just not touched by it. If there is no press, no cash, no possible vote, then I don't think it gets their attention. There are perhaps some exceptions, but I have mostly seen aloofness.

Agreed.


Pete

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It's after NO - things are different now.

You are right, Its after NO, and things are different now, but look at the human suffering and death that had to take place before it became different.


Time is passing, things are clearing up for me. I agree that NO was originally blown off 'cause of the historical poor & black thing. This was DEFINATELY the locals' fault. The slow response from FEMA was ultimately Bushes' fault.

I think you and I are placing a emphasis in different areas. Yes, the locals did fail in many ways. I blame the mayor and governor for that late evacuation orders. You cannot blame them for the buses, ambulances, and police force failures. Those failures are rank and files lack of public responsibility. Had the storm passed with no levee broken their failures would have largely been benign and unimpactful. People would have left the deathdome and the convention center and went home. No riots should have happened, no looting would have been necessary, and the mayhem would be minimal to non existant. It didn't play out that way.

The mayhem began after the storm passed and the subsequent 5 days it took for FEMA to get in there. When the storm was over, there should have been immediate food/water drops at the superdome and the convention center. The national guard should have been in there immediately to take control of the situation and provide security. Providing the food and security would have eliminated the looting and mayhem. It would have also helped to reduce the human suffering that took place. Helicopters should have already been air lifting folks to safety on Tuesday, not Saturday 5 days after the storm. How many lives would have been saved if they had started Tuesday instead of Saturday?




Jeb runs a state that appears to be about 5000% better governed than LA. Regardless if it was before he got in, it still is.

Disagree. Under Jebs watch foster care has lost, or found killed more children than any other state. They have had two race riots, and have the same issues as any other state to deal with. Florida is no better run the Louisisana, Florida is better connected to the white house than Louisiana, that's the reality. Florida has a long history of hurricanes hitting the state, a history longer than Jeb Bush has been living. He deserves no credit here, just more and better help from his brother.


Of course it helps to be able to call the President on his personal cell phone, but that is generally considered a political plus.

Do you want to place a wager that Jeb did just that? Now ask the governor of Louisiana if she has the number. Playing favorites is not something a president should find himself doing.




Agreed the buck stops with him. But realisticly there is no way he'll agree to go before any commission.

Your right, he is much to arrogant to actually account for himself in front of congress.




serious[/i].

Or you can look at it this way. Death or no death. 1917 deaths against 0. He lied to the public about Iraq, Bill lied about Monica. Do you think Bush will ever be called in front of a Republican congress or Senate to account for the lies he told about Iraq? Hell no, they just dismissed it. We now know he told a lie, not a bad decision, but a bald faced lie. I think you are choosing language that softens reality.




Speaking realisticly, they know darn well it won't do a thing, they're just looking towards the '06 election cycle. Agreed, I know, the Reps are hardly going to crucify their leader.

And the Demo's wouldn't(and didn't) have crucified theirs either, which is why I say they both need to be driven from power for the sake of the average citizen.



I'm very very worried that we are OK with the military becoming the boss of 1st resort here at home. And it amazes me that after seeing the breakdown of gov't on all levels with NO we want MORE gov't. We must be hard learners!

I was troubled by this myself, and your right. We just never learn.

[piece-it pete]

Well my friend, it's amazing how we disagree about darn near everything!

:D

Unless new info comes by I think I'm about out. It has been insightful, as usual, with the added plus of anti-Americanism :) .

BTW, this is almost beyond belief, but in my last lp gathering expedition I picked up this (the pic is pirated, but I have it, really!):

[piece-it pete]

Eeep. Maybe this qualifies:





Moral poverty cost blacks in New Orleans

By Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Say a hurricane is about to destroy the city you live in. Two questions:

1.What would you do?
2.What would you do if you were black?

Sadly, the two questions don't have the same answer.

To the first: Most of us would take our families out of that city quickly to protect them from danger. Then, able-bodied men would return to help others in need, as wives and others cared for children, elderly, infirm and the like.

For better or worse, Hurricane Katrina has told us the answer to the second question. If you're black and a hurricane is about to destroy your city, then you'll probably wait for the government to save you.

This was not always the case. Prior to 40 years ago, such a pathetic performance by the black community in a time of crisis would have been inconceivable. The first response would have come from black men. They would take care of their families, bring them to safety, and then help the rest of the community. Then local government would come in.

No longer. When 75 percent of New Orleans residents had left the city, it was primarily immoral, welfare-pampered blacks that stayed behind and waited for the government to bail them out. This, as we know, did not turn out good results.

Enter Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan. Jackson and Farrakhan laid blame on "racist" President Bush. Farrakhan actually proposed the idea that the government blew up a levee so as to kill blacks and save whites. The two demanded massive governmental spending to rebuild New Orleans, above and beyond the federal government's proposed $60 billion. Not only that, these two were positioning themselves as the gatekeepers to supervise the dispersion of funds. Perfect: Two of the most dishonest elite blacks in America, "overseeing" billions of dollars. I wonder where that money will end up.

Of course, if these two were really serious about laying blame on government, they should blame the local one. Responsibility to perform - legally and practically - fell first on the mayor of New Orleans. We are now all familiar with Mayor Ray Nagin - the black Democrat who likes to yell at President Bush for failing to do Nagin's job. The facts, unfortunately, do not support Nagin's wailing. As the Washington Times puts it, "recent reports show [Nagin] failed to follow through on his own city's emergency-response plan, which acknowledged that thousands of the city's poorest residents would have no way to evacuate the city."

One wonders how there was "no way" for these people to evacuate the city. We have photographic evidence telling us otherwise. You've probably seen it by now - the photo showing 200 parked school buses, unused and underwater. How much planning does it require to put people on a bus and leave town, Mayor Nagin?

Instead of doing the obvious, Mayor Nagin (with no positive contribution from Democratic Gov. Kathleen Blanco, the other major leader vested with responsibility to address the hurricane disaster) loaded remaining New Orleans residents into the Superdome and the city's convention center. We know how that plan turned out.

About five years ago, in a debate before the National Association of Black Journalists, I stated that if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years. The audience, shall we say, disagreed with me strongly. Now I have to disagree with me. I gave blacks too much credit. It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

President Bush is not to blame for the rampant immorality of blacks. Had New Orleans' black community taken action, most would have been out of harm's way. But most were too lazy, immoral and trifling to do anything productive for themselves.

All Americans must tell blacks this truth. It was blacks' moral poverty - not their material poverty - that cost them dearly in New Orleans. Farrakhan, Jackson, and other race hustlers are to be repudiated - they will only perpetuate this problem by stirring up hatred and applauding moral corruption. New Orleans, to the extent it is to be rebuilt, should be remade into a dependency-free, morally strong city where corruption is opposed and success is applauded. Blacks are obligated to help themselves and not depend on the government to care for them. We are all obligated to tell them so.

[GMichael]

Eeep. Maybe this qualifies:

Uht oh, you are soooooooo gonna get it now.

[piece-it pete]

Well, we know it, but in case someone misses it....

He was obviously speaking to fellow black folks, pointing out what he saw.

He specifically said:

"Most of us would take our families out of that city quickly to protect them from danger. Then, able-bodied men would return to help others in need, as wives and others cared for children, elderly, infirm and the like."

so he was talking about:

"When 75 percent of New Orleans residents had left the city, it was primarily immoral, welfare-pampered blacks that stayed behind and waited..."

Unsaid was the fact that there were plenty of "immoral, welfare-pampered" whites in that group too, again because he was speaking to the black community.

Pete

[Geoffcin]

Closed.