I heard the B&W 800d's today

[Mr Peabody]

I learned that "D" stands for Diamond and the D series has some type of diamond tweeter. The 800d's were driven by a Classe' 200 wpc amp with an Audio Research preamp and CD player.

Needless to say the system sounded good. It did have some short comings though. The midbass seemed to be congested or tubby with complex pieces. This could be attributed to the room or a tube preamp as much as a flaw in the speaker. The 800d's played very low. When playing the bass solo intro on a Gordian Knot CD and fixtures in the room began to vibrate. The highs were quite prominent. I didn't get a sense this would be fatiguing over time but I only listened for around 30 minutes. The 800d seemed to have a nice midrange and sound stage. I have to admit this speaker is the best sounding B&W I've heard but for $20k I believe there are better at that price. I think the Dynaudio Confidence series would offer better performance for less money.

[Cincy2]

I purchased a set of 800D's in July as an upgrade to 801's I had owned for six years. The one fact that is inescapable about B&W speakers is that they ruthlessly reveal the shortcomings of all upstream components. I am driving mine with a dCS front end and Halcro monoblock amps in a room that is liberally treated with ASC tubetraps. None of the shortcomings you noticed are present in my system. They are the best value for the dollar that exists in high end speakers but..... you have to feed them with the best signal you can afford.

[drseid]

I did not hear the 800Ds, but I have heard the 802Ds and 803Ds powered by top of the line McIntosh electronics...

I agree that there are better values than the B&W D series (at least based on my impressions). In my case, I was not impressed with any particular attribute of the speakers. That is not to say they sounded "bad" at all... but for the kind of money B&W wants for them I expect a lot, and was let down. In my case, I found the soundstage above average, but bested by many other speakers I have heard for less... Midrange and mid-bass were both unimpressive (and those may have been my least favorite attributes), while the low-end and highs were nice (moreso on the 802Ds with respect to the low-end), but not amazing. All in all, good speakers to be sure, but way overpriced IMO for what you get for your money, compared to other store speaker brands and models like Von Schweikert (the DB99 mk. II), Dali (Helicon800) and McIntosh (XRT-28).

I should point out that I have never cared for the Nautilus series B&W "sound," so my bias needs to be noted when reading my comments above... But I keep waiting for B&W to come up with a speaker that will wow me, and so far I just keep coming up short. :-(

Everyone has different tastes though, so I am sure many will love them.

---Dave

[Mr Peabody]

Cincy, I would love to hear your system.

When I was looking for speakers I auditioned the Nautilus series and was not impressed. As Drseid said, the sound wasn't necessarily bad, it just didn't do anything for, me. The D series is an improvement to my ears. The 800's did have a large sound stage and drum rolls were impressive, they had weight and feel of real drums. I don't know about best value for $20k but I can believe the potential was there to sound better than I heard just that one time.

[thepogue]

I've got about 20 hours listening to the 800D mostly with a 5K Clear Audio TT, Linn CD, Mark Levinson Pre..bla bla bla...


What I hear is a good sounding system that I'm sure could sound great with the right room tweaking. I also hear speakers that can be bested for less...sometimes much less IMHO...

Pogue

[John Ashman]

I purchased a set of 800D's in July as an upgrade to 801's I had owned for six years. The one fact that is inescapable about B&W speakers is that they ruthlessly reveal the shortcomings of all upstream components. I am driving mine with a dCS front end and Halcro monoblock amps in a room that is liberally treated with ASC tubetraps. None of the shortcomings you noticed are present in my system. They are the best value for the dollar that exists in high end speakers but..... you have to feed them with the best signal you can afford.


Cincy, I hate to say this (okay, I lie), but this is a highly escapable fact. First of all, B&Ws aren't terribly revealing speakers. Kevlar's break up modes and lack of rigidity masks a lot of detail. The whole "ruthlessly revealing" fable is based on the fact that the breakup modes make it seem like the amps are straining or the other components are distorting or are harsh, but it is, in fact, the drivers. Kevlar is a VERY problematic midrange material, especially in its FST configuration. And it has cost many, many people thousands of dollars trying to compensate for it, with mixed results.

When someone says a speaker is "ruthlessly revealing", that means that the speaks are either harsh or bright. It's just the way it is. Measure any "ruthlessly revealing" speakers properly and you will turn up warts in the upper midrange that cause the problem, which is almost always improperly blamed on ancillary components which are several orders of magnitude lower in distortion. How does a ~1% distortion component "reveal" the distortion in a .01% distortion component, anyway?

[theaudiohobby]

John,

"Ruthlessly revealing" is a suspect characteristic, revealing yes, ruthless certainly not. However adverse loads, not necessarily low impedance loads rather severe phase angle, large impedance deviations cause certain amplifiers to behave suboptimally, and this indeed may be the case here. Your critique of the FST is simply not well founded, Lynn's paper and one Revel graph just won't do. As I have mentioned over and over again, if your critique was indeed correct, why is this apparent signature behaviour not present in the 700 series, the B&W 705 is neither harsh nor bright, yet it has an acoustic crossover at about 3.7kHz, and as RGA never cease to remind us the bass rolls off very early, so the midrange and treble are very much exposed to scrutiny.

On the issue of the distortion, it is about spectrum of the distortion rather than the THD, it is a pity that THD still dominates audio specs,(because it much easier to measure, though practically useless). The distortion spectrum forms part of the signature of any audio component especially loudspeakers, their distortion spectrum still differentiates them since distortion is generally much higher than other components, apart from SET amps, across the board.

[John Ashman]

John,

"Ruthlessly revealing" is a suspect characteristic, revealing yes, ruthless certainly not.

Well, as you know, I would disagree with you hear. When someone says a speaker is "revealing", that usually means it has some upper midrange/treble issues (all speaker do, just some worse than others) that will be described by others variably as "bright", "fatiguing", "harsh" or maybe even "too detailed". When it is bumped up to "ruthlessly revealing", then the problem is fairly severe.


However adverse loads, not necessarily low impedance loads rather severe phase angle, large impedance deviations cause certain amplifiers to behave suboptimally, and this indeed may be the case here.

Possible, but not likely. Unless the speaker is being driven by a Sony receiver or something, it's not likely to be a problem. Most of the time, these 90dB+ speakers are being driven by uber amps that offer no alibis.


Your critique of the FST is simply not well founded, Lynn's paper and one Revel graph just won't do. As I have mentioned over and over again, if your critique was indeed correct, why is this apparent signature behaviour not present in the 700 series, the B&W 705 is neither harsh nor bright, yet it has an acoustic crossover at about 3.7kHz, and as RGA never cease to remind us the bass rolls off very early, so the midrange and treble are very much exposed to scrutiny.

Interesting. I have many people who tell me just how bright they are. Especially one person who LOVES brightness and he chose the 703 speakers because of that. He thinks the new D series is too warm and fuzzy. Since, as you know, most people equate brightness or harshness with detail, the new warmer D series may alienate a few B&W faithful. It is possible to have a warm tonal balance and have a lot of distortion in the midrange - this just makes the speaker sound lacking in detail. This is what is going on with the 803D which I can only decribe as very much lacking in detail and, while pleasant, it is the furthest thing I've heard from "revealing" by B&W since the Matrix 3. But if you look at the latest HT mag, they show an obvious rollof starting at 1kHz and going right through the treble. The problem is, that simply points out how lacking in detail the midrange actually is. This is usually hidden by the brighter sound that people think is detail.


On the issue of the distortion, it is about spectrum of the distortion rather than the THD, it is a pity that THD still dominates audio specs,(because it much easier to measure, though practically useless). The distortion spectrum forms part of the signature of any audio component especially loudspeakers, their distortion spectrum still differentiates them since distortion is generally much higher than other components, apart from SET amps, across the board.

You are correct. THD is simply a snapshot and gives a very low result. It's spectral decay, transient issues, IM distortion that we generally hear in the midrange.

I'm sorry that we can't agree on this whole kevlar thing, but B&W *admits* the problem in their 800D design brief. That they are "forced" to run the driver well into its breakup mode area, but they feel they have mitigated it. Well, everyone always says that. But ask any normal designer what the ideal driver is and they'll say one that is infinitely stiff with no resonance. By nature, the FST is not stiff. Worse, it has high tensile strength. Even reviewers confuse this and state how stiff the Kevlar cones are. That is incorrect. They are stiffer than denim, but not as stiff as most most plastic or paper cones and certainly not metal. The FST drivers are forced to bend in order to create the sound. Therefore, they naturally create resonances in the cone which they try to dampen, but can't really. It is definitely audible. Depending on how the speaker is voiced, it will those resonances will muddy the sound and hide detail or will add harshness and cause fatigue. Here is what B&W says on this subject:


Both the tweeter and bass drive unit diaphragms of the 800D are designed following the ‘stiff is good’ principle. However, good reproduction in the midrange has a particular requirement that precludes this approach if a single drive unit is to be used to cover the whole range.

Here's the funny thing. There's no reason they can't use dual midrange drivers as other companies do. Even the real Nautilus speaker is a 4-way. By the time you hit $5K or so you can build essentially the best 3-way you can build (unless you want to make the cabinet ultra fancy) and you need to move to a 4-way to improve distortion, dispersion, accuracy, etc. The 800 series are 3-ways simply because that is their tradition. Even if they feel that a speaker shouldn't have a crossover above 350Hz, using a 6" midbass from ~75Hz-350Hz and a 4.5" driver above would have done a far better job, improving midbass quality by taking it from the bass drivers and allowing for a more pistonic, wider dispersion midrange without all the coloration.


With stiff diaphragms, the dispersion progressively narrows as the frequency increases and the wavelength becomes similar to or smaller than the diameter of the diaphragm. At 4kHz, the wavelength is 86mm (3.4 in) and so with any drive unit of a size large enough to give high output levels with low distortion at the bass-to-midrange crossover frequency, beaming is likely to be a problem. Off centre listeners are going to hear a sound with a significantly different balance from that on axis, and image precision will suffer. Having established that we do want to achieve high sound levels and do not want to use more than one drive unit, the best option is to use a drive unit with a more flexible cone material.

Here is where they box themselves into having only one solution and therefore "must" use Kevlar. It is simply a rationalization of Kevlar. "We had to do it". No, you didn't. There are other better options, but you can bet that the establishment at B&W told the engineering department "do anything you want but it a) has to be a 3-way and b) has to use Kevlar". And so they have to try to engineer their way out of the box that they've been put into.


That does mean that the cone is virtually certain to be operating in its break-up region for much of its usable range, but the usual deleterious effect of this (delayed resonances colouring the sound) is ameliorated greatly if the correct material is chosen."

That one pretty much speaks for itself. I can't add much there.

[GMichael]

You Titans are gathered around picking apart a pair of $20K speakers. $20k is more than my whole system. H.ll, it's more than both of my systems and the 3rd one I have planned all put together. Dudes, do you ever throw any of this stuff away? And if you do, is there a waiting list? Do I have to take a number?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[John Ashman]

GM, don't worry, it's not what you think (I think). It's not that most of us are "cup is half empty" types, but more saying that "Gee, sometimes an expensive speaker is just expensive". You can get *very* high end performance, IMO, equal or better than many expensive products for far less money if you're careful. Marketing has really taken over high-end over the past 10-15 years, primarily because of magazines like Stereophile which push the idea that you can't spend too much money and no product is overpriced. Horse hockey. Most of this stuff is overpriced, limited production stuff. Most $20K speakers have no more money in the drivers than a $5K speaker. Just because a speaker costs 2-4 times as much doesn't make it better, especially these days where the component parts are relatively affordable. There are prestige brands, value oriented brands, mass market brands and performance oriented brands. Prestige brands sell more than performance, kind of like Rolls Royce, but it will cost you. Value oriented brands often have many compromises, but are very affordable. Mass market brands are big box movers that sell their brand name to the public at large - Bose, Klipsch, Polk, etc. Performance oriented brands are generally more expensive than the value brands, less expensive than the prestige brands, but eschew glamour and style to pursue high-end sound at a reasonable price by avoiding compromise and engaging in sensible, pragmatic design. Unfortunately, performance oriented brands are few and far between. It's cool to own stuff like Krell and B&W, but you can do better sound for less, but maybe all your friends won't swoon when they see your system, only when they listen ;)

[GMichael]

GM, don't worry, it's not what you think (I think). It's not that most of us are "cup is half empty" types, but more saying that "Gee, sometimes an expensive speaker is just expensive". You can get *very* high end performance, IMO, equal or better than many expensive products for far less money if you're careful. Marketing has really taken over high-end over the past 10-15 years, primarily because of magazines like Stereophile which push the idea that you can't spend too much money and no product is overpriced. Horse hockey. Most of this stuff is overpriced, limited production stuff. Most $20K speakers have no more money in the drivers than a $5K speaker. Just because a speaker costs 2-4 times as much doesn't make it better, especially these days where the component parts are relatively affordable. There are prestige brands, value oriented brands, mass market brands and performance oriented brands. Prestige brands sell more than performance, kind of like Rolls Royce, but it will cost you. Value oriented brands often have many compromises, but are very affordable. Mass market brands are big box movers that sell their brand name to the public at large - Bose, Klipsch, Polk, etc. Performance oriented brands are generally more expensive than the value brands, less expensive than the prestige brands, but eschew glamour and style to pursue high-end sound at a reasonable price by avoiding compromise and engaging in sensible, pragmatic design. Unfortunately, performance oriented brands are few and far between. It's cool to own stuff like Krell and B&W, but you can do better sound for less, but maybe all your friends won't swoon when they see your system, only when they listen ;)

Hi John,

Thanks for the nice reply. I was really only kidding so I didn't deserve such a civilized and informative answer.
My system(s) are very good for me. Everyone who comes over (including some with very deep pockets) enjoy how it sounds.
I'm just such a goofball.

Thanks again.

P.S.

What number do I have on that waiting list?

[John Ashman]

What number do I have on that waiting list?

193. Now serving 7. :)

[GMichael]

193. Now serving 7. :)

Cool, thanks!

7 huh? And I see you have 7 posts. I'll be looking forward to number 193.

[topspeed]

John,
I won't get into the Kevlar debate as I've heard both sides of this a hundred times over and have come to one irrefutable conclusion: neither side is going to change their mind ;). However, I will agree wholeheartedly that there is definitely a point of rapidly diminishing returns. To me, that point hits right around $5K with speakers, lower with the front end. After this, any advantages become minimal. This is not to say there are not improvements to be had, only that they are not equivalent to the amount of dollars invested.

The simple fact is that once you reach the $20K plateau, people are buying far more than sheer performance. Ego takes a prominent role in the decision making process. Intangibles such as brand loyalty, wow factor, and aesthetics have as much an influence as FR charts, impedence curves, and sound quality. Why do people buy $225k Ferrari F430's when a $65K Corvette Z06 will handily outperform it? Same scenario, different product.

[Cincy2]

Lots of good information in these posts. I am an owner of the speakers in question. In my room with my front end and amp they are fantastic! I admit to B&W loyalty. This is my fourth pair moving gradually up the price curve. There may be better buys out there but for me, these are the ultimate speaker. A large part of the price pays for the workmanship which no one has mentioned. The materials and craftmanship in this model make them a work of art in addition to being a very respectable transducer. The beauty of this hobby is that we all have our opinons and spend accordingly. There is no wrong answer if you are happy with your choices.

[John Ashman]

TS,
You're right, of course. My main thing is that I get a little worked up when I see people blaming the sound of the speaker on the electronics or hearing the "only if driven by the finest components". That just isn't real. All speakers have flaws and few are very difficult to drive. And all it does is get people to spend insane amounts on ancillaries when a different speaker with more modest electronics will often sound better, though maybe with different flaws. I also see a lot of "well, you're speaker doesn't sound like my favorite speaker, therefore, yours are inferior". Well, maybe they don't sound like that *on purpose* :) High-end is a funny industry.

GM, sorry, I'm the newbie here, but too many forums, too little time. I'll be *really* annoying by post 193 ;)

[GMichael]

TS,

GM, sorry, I'm the newbie here, but too many forums, too little time. I'll be *really* annoying by post 193 ;)

No problem. You can be as annoying as you want at number 193, as long as I still hold that ticket number. I'll take whatever crumbs you have available at that time.

[GMichael]

Cincy2,

Nice pics!

Everyone has to pick what they want based on what means the most to them. No one can deny how good these look.

I must admit, I am looking at speakers to replace the ones in our bedroom, and getting them to match the furniture counts as well as how they sound. Why not have both, right?

[topspeed]

Cincy,
That's a beautiful set-up. Very clean, although I'll bet that trapezoid back wall created some interesting problems, eh? I'm surprised at how much you've treated the room. From the tube traps to the corner traps to the room lenses, the room looks practically inert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a little reflection add to the sense of depth and space?

Very nice, indeed. Love the Halcro's :cool:.


High-end is a funny industry.Now there's an understatement.

[Florian]

Good looking system. Enjoy!

-Flo

[Mr Peabody]

John, I take issue with what you said about "revealing" speakers being harsh or too bright. I know from another thread that we sometimes have different meanings in our minds of adjectives used to describe audio sound but I don't think many would agree with yours. I proudly describe my Dyn's as being revealing and they are not harsh or too bright UNLESS that is the signature, or fault of the electronics. A speaker's job is too be honest and if your equipment sounds like crap therefore your speakers should show you that.

I don't usually disagree with Topper but I've heard gear that have had extravagant price tags and if I had the money I would purchase because they flat knocked my socks off. Price don't always equal performance but there isn't a plateau for performance either. I also firmly believe if you don't have a decent source you are wasting your money on the the rest of the system. If those of you who feel the speakers is where the money should go and that makes your system, why aren't you still listening to cassettes? I mean your system should be reasonably matched, not lopsided to either front or back end, but you should put more emphasis on the source.

Actually, Cincy's system components are matched pretty well. I don't know what those Halcro amps cost but I'm sure it's much more than $20k and they could probably rock most any speaker on the market effortlessly. I didn't come away with the impression the B&W were worth $20k but I'm not doubting his system sounds great. Maybe the 800D needs that calibur of electronics to make them sound right. Then again, he did admit being a B&W fan which I am not. But I can respect his choice because I'm sure he didn't buy the only pair and if we all liked the same thing there wouldn't be a billion companies out there chasing the same dollar.

[John Ashman]

John, I take issue with what you said about "revealing" speakers being harsh or too bright. I know from another thread that we sometimes have different meanings in our minds of adjectives used to describe audio sound but I don't think many would agree with yours. I proudly describe my Dyn's as being revealing and they are not harsh or too bright UNLESS that is the signature, or fault of the electronics. A speaker's job is too be honest and if your equipment sounds like crap therefore your speakers should show you that.

Well, look, I've been in this industry a long time and I can tell you that many people who say "oh, my speaker is just extremely revealing" then upgrade and say "oh, yeah, the old speakers were a bit harsh, but the NEW versions......." I had a guy tell me just the other day how harsh the B&W Nautilus tweeter was compared to the Diamond tweeter and I said "you know, just a few years ago, you stood right over there and told me that the N tweeter was the finest tweeter you'd ever heard" and he said "I did not!" And I said "Oh, yes, you did, I remember it like it was yesterday, but now that it's discontinued, it's crap?" This year's "revealing" is next year's "bright". That's why I understand this subject so well. Now, the Dynaudios? I don't know. The one's I've heard 10 years ago were clearly a tad on the warm side. However, I've heard from many people that the new ones *are* bright. I've not heard one comment to the contrary, the good ones are, as you say, "revealing". But that's okay. As Cincy says, it's all personal taste. One person's bright is another person's dull. No speaker is perfect. All have distortion elements. Some of those add "sizzle" to the sound. Others fatigue. The same element that makes one person excited might put another off. However, I have a rule. If half the people say "revealing" and the other half say "bright", it's bright. I've rarely heard a speaker that is described as "warm" also be described as revealing. Those that are, are often 1st order designs that get brighter and harsher as the volume goes up. Anyway, I could go on a LONG involved rampage on this subject, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.


I don't usually disagree with Topper but I've heard gear that have had extravagant price tags and if I had the money I would purchase because they flat knocked my socks off. Price don't always equal performance but there isn't a plateau for performance either. I also firmly believe if you don't have a decent source you are wasting your money on the the rest of the system. If those of you who feel the speakers is where the money should go and that makes your system, why aren't you still listening to cassettes? I mean your system should be reasonably matched, not lopsided to either front or back end, but you should put more emphasis on the source.

I totally disagree with this. Given any price point, I can reliably produce better sound by "backloading" the system vs another store that "frontloads" it. I have two main competitors who demo frontloaded $50K+ systems and I regularly steal their sales with my backloaded $7K system. I once set up a system that used zip cord for wires, a Fisher CD player, a Carver preamp, cheapy "included" patch cables and killed a brand new $25K system with it by attaching better speakers and stole the sale. If there were a competition for best sound, I'd always take a backloaded system.


But I can respect his choice because I'm sure he didn't buy the only pair and if we all liked the same thing there wouldn't be a billion companies out there chasing the same dollar.

As can I. It's obviously a nice setup and he's happy and if 801Ds can sound great, I'll bet those do. I was needlessly hard on him and for that I apologize. My only thing is that all speakers are flawed compared to electronics. And so we have to live with those flaws (just like living with a good woman - they still have flaws). I believe that it is a good mental and emotional thing (as well as money saving) to recognize this and be able to say "yeah, they might be a tad ______ for some, but I like that" or whatever. I have a good customer that loves his B&Ws exactly because they're bright to him and he likes that. I can tell you what's "wrong" with every speaker I sell. I sometimes joke that there's no such thing as a "great sounding" speaker, only "less bad sounding" ones. Not a good sales pitch though ;)

[Mr Peabody]

John, all I can say is that you must be a good salesman because no matter how you back end your system it won't reproduce what isn't there in the first place. Your system would be totally limited by the Fisher cd player and no matter how you might try to convince me or some one there's no way that Fisher will give the information or performance of a Krell, Arcam or similar quality cd player. I was in a repair shop several years ago and the tech used a cheap pair of Kenwood speakers on the bench, he through an old McIntosh tube amp on them and I was amazed at how good those old speakers sounded. I can't remember the source. That was one of the first examples that stuck in my mind even though the amp wasn't the source it still made more of a difference than putting a high end pair of speakers on his test receiver. I guess we will agree to disagree because I am absolutely convinced that front end loading will yield higher quality sound overall.

As far as new series that come out, I tend to, wait and see, if it's actually offering anything better than the older series. Typically on higher end gear the change is warranted where mass merchants have to keep the faces changing to excite new business from foolish consumers like the one you described.

[John Ashman]

John, all I can say is that you must be a good salesman because no matter how you back end your system it won't reproduce what isn't there in the first place. Your system would be totally limited by the Fisher cd player and no matter how you might try to convince me or some one there's no way that Fisher will give the information or performance of a Krell, Arcam or similar quality cd player.

Well, let's put it this way, the difference was so amazing that even my competitor's employee finally just threw his hands up and left. In this case, yes, there was $20K worth of Krell CD/Pre/Amp and exotic cable vs old, beat up, crappy electronics, that I would argue suck, driving a better speaker and the better speaker won. Pick your "dream" system at any price point and I'll gladly come over and spank it with a backloaded system. Which has nothing to do with my capabilities or anything, just the reality that speakers/room/setup is more than 90% of the battle. Yes, in this case, a CRAP Fisher CD player beat out a Krell CD player that cost 20 times as much.


I guess we will agree to disagree because I am absolutely convinced that front end loading will yield higher quality sound overall.

Yes, but I can actually prove I'm right ;)

[Peter Duminy]

Cincy2, may I ask how you like the Transparent Reference XL speaker cables and Interconnects with the 800Ds? Have you tried any other combinations of cables with them?

[RGA]

Peter D

Soundhounds in Victoria carries the B&W Diamonds among other notables. There was a fellow I met ther who owned B&W speakers (I forget which one but probably in the CDM NT range) He re-wired all of the internal cabling with AN wires and was raving about how great it was.

When you worked for B&W did they ever experiment with different cables. I'm more than a little suspicious of cables because the only serious audition I had was with some MIT cables and they actually made the sound "worse" than the cheap speaker wires. I never argue with cable supporters because I can honestly say I heard a difference (albeit for the much worse) but I don't get why this B&W owner would wake up one day and think gee lets spend money and time having the repair guy open up the B&W's and the re-wire them with presumably silver wires from a totally different company?? He's happy so that's all that matters I guess but to me that sort of change COOULD just as easily made it worse no?

[Florian]

In my opinion some cables can improve the sound while others can/will make it worse. It's all about component synergy. In my system balanced cables from Rapport brought me the best so far, and the use of a pure silverstrand unshielded wire from the Transport to the DAC got me a tick more resolution. The differences are small, and i do not belive that someone can claim a 50% increase from cables no matter how you twist it.

Personally i do not care for B&W and think that they are far from the end in terms of detail, speed, lack of coloration and transiant responses. (See John i am learning ;)). I think its great that he likes his system but its a system i would never choose to own. The Diamond tweeter is much like the Kevlar drivers and the big comercials. Kevlar, space age materials and Diamond are all words that have a high status with us and it effects the judgment before hearing it on some people. Some of the best drivers i heard was from the "Wiener Lautsprecher Manufaktur" and they use coax paper drivers! But this would never sell because paper is less worth than a Diamond.

A fisher CDP with a old carver amp and some rotten socks will never touch a 20K system unless its from B&O or BOSE. A good thought out system for 20K will blow away a system costing less if the same amount of care and consideration went into the component selection. Of course, if you choose a Wilson Audio X2 and try to run them with a Onkyo TX5000 the system will be around 60K and sound like ****, but that's because no consideration and care went into it. Same goes with Apogee's and the Audio Notes. The Apogee's love current and like the sound of a good transistor on the bass with tubes on the mid high section and Audio Notes love single tube systems which can sound damn good and capture the spirit of the music very well. An Apogee will never play with that kind of component so different means are neceserry in order to reach the final goal.

A revelaing system will clearly guide you and help you on the selection of equipment. My DIVA can clearly show me the differences between cables, power filters, source electronics and amplification and room placment. Its not always better, it does not always improve but it shows me what she likes and does not like. But the DIVA never sounds harsh or unpleasant, thats not her style. The system is very well balanced and has a very good transiant response and lacks coloration. The technology has not been changed in over 30years, but B&W needs to come out with new toys in order to sell.

If you own a speaker whos only shortcomings are the driving electronics and the room plus the price than you can stop and say you have a ruthlessly revealing speaker. Otherwise just ruthless ;)

-Flo

[John Ashman]

I'm more than a little suspicious of cables because the only serious audition I had was with some MIT cables and they actually made the sound "worse" than the cheap speaker wires.

RGA, MIT cables actually are a passive electronic circuit. However, I've found that, for B&W owners who feel their speakers are too bright, they make a very postive difference and many have adopted them. I'm not a fan of "two wrongs make a right", but sometimes you just use what works to get to where you need to be. I think Transparent cables work the very same way as the MITs and could be why Cincy finds his system to be so smooth.

[Peter Duminy]

RGA

Yes, we did extensive testing and research into cables and their properties. Many Companies around the World sent samples for us to evaluate and test. Each had their strengths and weaker points, and many were extremely expensive. We never had a real favorite we could name the "last word" in cables however.

As to opening up a product and re-wiring it, the main deterrent would be the 5 year Factory Warranty that would be voided. After that period, one can try this, and a number of enthusiasts have done so and posted their results on the Hi-Fi Choice Forum for example over the years. It can be a tedious task as some of the routes can be very narrow and awkward on some models. There is also the risk of rattling against the enclosure walls and drivers developing, so one has to be very careful in laying the cables out. As to whether such a short internal run of silver wire within the loudspeaker would be a sonic benefit is a debatable issue. Still, the main point here is that the user you mention in your post is happy with his modification. :)

[Cincy2]

Peter,

I've never owned any speaker cables other than Transparent. I started with B Stock dealer demo Ultras and over the years upgraded to Reference and XL (soon to Opus MM wife permitting). I found each upgrade increased transparency and reduced background noise (please no flames here fellas). I never had the urge to look elsewhere since 1) the Transparent folks are wonderful to work with, 2) their products have worked great in all my systems over the past 15 years. There are several price points of Nordost cables you could try to compare. They don't have a network as the Transparent cables do. The biggest knock against Transparent's product line is that the network rolls off the treble. I have not found this to be the case, but only you can be the judge. The Cable Company (www.fatwyre.com)carries Nordost and will loan you a set of which ever ones you want for a deposit which has to be applied to some purchase. They are also great folks to work with.


Topspeed,

The picture of the room treatments is somewhat old. I kept the rear wall diffusers and Tube traps. They control the base. On the side walls I have small Studio Traps from ASC at the first reflection points. They diffuse rather than absorb allowing me to keep some "snap" and "sizzle" in the room.

Cincy2

[Mr Peabody]

Well John, when someone stands and says a Fisher/Carver system sounds better than a Krell all you can do, is throw up your hands, as I do with you.

[Peter Duminy]

Many thanks for the cable info Cincy2. :)

[topspeed]

I don't usually disagree with Topper but I've heard gear that have had extravagant price tags and if I had the money I would purchase because they flat knocked my socks off. Price don't always equal performance but there isn't a plateau for performance either. I don't think we're disagreeing, Mr. P. I didn't say there was a plateau for performance, only that there is a point of rapidly diminishing returns. Gains can be had, just on an incremental scale and on a wholly different return rate per dollar. Again, once you reach the exotic realm of equipment, ultimate performance is merely one factor in a sea of many that can influence the decision by a potential customer. Build quality, brand loyalty, ego, etc. will be just as important, if not more, once we reach audio la-la land.

[John Ashman]

I don't think we're disagreeing, Mr. P. I didn't say there was a plateau for performance, only that there is a point of rapidly diminishing returns. Gains can be had, just on an incremental scale and on a wholly different return rate per dollar. Again, once you reach the exotic realm of equipment, ultimate performance is merely one factor in a sea of many that can influence the decision by a potential customer. Build quality, brand loyalty, ego, etc. will be just as important, if not more, once we reach audio la-la land.

Actually, there is a plateau for performance. Perfection isn't a moving target. Once you get there, there's not where to go. We're not *quite* there, but most decent electronics are damned close. It's not like computers where there is no limit to performance.

[John Ashman]

Well John, when someone stands and says a Fisher/Carver system sounds better than a Krell all you can do, is throw up your hands, as I do with you.

Well, in context, it did and it wasn't close. On their own? of course not, the Krell models are better, just not *enough* better to make a good speaker outperform a great one, even with several $thousand in wire vs about $5 in wire. Sorry. It was obvious to everyone in the room which system was better and it didn't have anything starting with a "K" in it. We did upgrade the electronics a bit, if it makes you feel better.

[Pat D]

Cool, thanks!

7 huh? And I see you have 7 posts. I'll be looking forward to number 193.
Have no fear, John Ashman is pretty knowledgeable, though he does have a thing about Kevlar--something I have no opinion on, myself. I've seen his posts elsewhere. He may be new here, but . . .

[Florian]

I think we have to stop on generalizing about companys. Krell makes a few **** products too and so does Conrad Jonhnson nowadays. Just because its a Krell, that doesnt make it good. I have owned several Krells in the past, and many of my friends used to have Krell until Sphinx, Etallon and the old Conrad Johnsons came along.

I dont know if anyone read my post, but this is exactly what i meant to say. You can take that Fisher, rotten sock combo and run it against a complete missmatch Krell etc. combo and the difference will not be high enough to make it worth spending the money.

-Flo

[GMichael]

Have no fear, John Ashman is pretty knowledgeable, though he does have a thing about Kevlar--something I have no opinion on, myself. I've seen his posts elsewhere. He may be new here, but . . .

I asked John if there was a waiting list for the stuff he throws out, and if I needed to take a number. He gave me number 193 and said now serving number 7. That also happened to be his 7th post. I am looking forward to his 193rd post because I would then be next in line (implying that each post represented another customer in line).
It seemed funny at the time.

I can see that he has much more experience in high end systems than I do. Number of posts means nothing as far as knowledge goes.

[thepogue]

Number of posts means nothing as far as knowledge goes.dang...I guess I'll just quit while I'm ahead ;)

Pogue

[Florian]

Knowledge and money are two different things :D
Just look at me...HAHA..;)

[GMichael]

dang...I guess I'll just quit while I'm ahead ;)

Pogue

hmmm....

2 Adcom GFA 555 mkII (Bi-Amped)
Adcom GTP 555 mkII
Martin Logan Prodigy's
Monitor Audio ASW 210 Sub
Rega Planet CD
Adcom DAC 600
Linn LP12 - Basik Plus - Valhalla
Grado Gold Cart.
Linn Black Interconnects
Monster M2.2 speaker cable
Tripplite Isobar Line Stabilizers/Surge Protectors x 2
Nitty Gritty 2.5 Fi

hmmm...

Me thinks you already know more than I.....

[Florian]

Knowledge and money are two different things :D
Just look at me...HAHA..;)

[thepogue]

used used used....cheap cheap cheap......happy happy happy ;)

Pogue



hmmm....

2 Adcom GFA 555 mkII (Bi-Amped)
Adcom GTP 555 mkII
Martin Logan Prodigy's
Monitor Audio ASW 210 Sub
Rega Planet CD
Adcom DAC 600
Linn LP12 - Basik Plus - Valhalla
Grado Gold Cart.
Linn Black Interconnects
Monster M2.2 speaker cable
Tripplite Isobar Line Stabilizers/Surge Protectors x 2
Nitty Gritty 2.5 Fi

hmmm...

Me thinks you already know more than I.....

[Florian]

used used used....cheap cheap cheap......happy happy happy ;)

Pogue Same here, altough the speakers were serious money.

[Mr Peabody]

I also have Transparent throughout my system but I only have the entry and next level up. I compared Transparent to an equivalently priced Audioquest and preferred the Transparent. The Audioquest was good but I just liked the sound of the Transparent better. Other than that, I haven't done any other A/B comparisons, like Cincy I've just been happy with the Transparent. I really heard a significant improvement when upgrading to their power cords. I didn't like the effect the other Transparent power conditioners had on my system, so for now I'm just plugged into the wall. I've thought about upgrading my wall sockets to PS Audio.

I have not experienced any high frequency roll off at all when using Transparent. In fact, I thought the highs improved. If anything I'd be suspect of filtering the lows because when using Transparent my bass was cleaner and tighter. The networks aren't supposed to effect or alter the signal, it's supposed to help maintain it's original integrity by cancelling out the antenna and RF effects of lengths of wire. MIT was the originator of this technology and some former employees broke away and formed Transparent. I have no idea why they split or if Transparent is better than MIT. It seems that Transparent is getting more of a market share but that could be different in other parts of the States or World. I also have heard that brands of cables sound different, as much as another component, so it may be trial and error to reach the perfect system synergy.

[topspeed]

Actually, there is a plateau for performance. Perfection isn't a moving target. Once you get there, there's not where to go. We're not *quite* there, but most decent electronics are damned close. It's not like computers where there is no limit to performance.I respectfully disagree.

Whereas the differences in front end pieces may be diminishing, I'm a big believer in system integration. IOW, you have to consider how each piece in the chain is going to interact with everything else for ultimate performance. You can take a terrific piece of gear, say that Krell cdp, and drop it in the wrong rig and simply not receive its full measure. However, the definition of "ultimate performance" will vary from each individual based on their wants and needs.

Audio is completely subjective, therefore the target moves from person to person, rig to rig.

[John Ashman]

I agree. My saying for people who want maximum performance for the money is to buy the very best speakers they can afford and then buy the least expensive gear that does them justice. Sure, a $10K preamp/amp might do them justice, but so might a $2K integrated. And if that $8K went towards better speakers? Yikes.

Audio is completely subjective, therefore the target moves from person to person, rig to rig.[/QUOTE]

This is the point with which I disagree. It is NOT just subjective, otherwise, we're going around in circles and getting nowhere. Objectivity is the guide post we need to get somewhere. While many companies build to taste, the companies that are objectively moving forward, IMO, are *also* subjectively moving forward and making a *real* difference in quality as opposed to a perceived one. This is why I disagree with how many companies build speakers - they're doing it to impress people, not to be more transparent, just as TVs have been notoriously tuned "hot" for decades to get people in the showroom and to hell with whether they get long term enjoyment. Most speaker companies just cater to their following and that's it. If they cared about furthering the perfomance, they'd abandon most of their design elements.

[topspeed]

I agree. My saying for people who want maximum performance for the money is to buy the very best speakers they can afford and then buy the least expensive gear that does them justice. Sure, a $10K preamp/amp might do them justice, but so might a $2K integrated. And if that $8K went towards better speakers? Yikes. I'm a back end guy myself.

No...wait...that didn't come out right :p.

Without question, the speakers and room acoustics will have the biggest effect on perceived sound. I agree wholeheartedly with your strategy.


This is the point with which I disagree. It is NOT just subjective, otherwise, we're going around in circles and getting nowhere. Objectivity is the guide post we need to get somewhere.It will never happen. Every designer has specific ideas on how they want their speakers to sound. Von Schweikert uses a sota playback system when voicing his speakers to make them as close to "live" as possible. Likewise, ATC engineer their speakers to be ruler flat and as faithful to the original as possible. Both have the same objective goal yet play the two side by side and they couldn't sound more different.

While many companies build to taste, the companies that are objectively moving forward, IMO, are *also* subjectively moving forward and making a *real* difference in quality as opposed to a perceived one.Agreed. This is why you see diamond and beryllium(sp?) tweeters.
This is why I disagree with how many companies build speakers - they're doing it to impress people, not to be more transparent You lost me on this thought.
Most speaker companies just cater to their following and that's it. If they cared about furthering the perfomance, they'd abandon most of their design elements.Well, I doubt you'll find any mission statement on the planet with a goal to "alienate the existing client base." If a company has a house sound and it's successful, naturally they will want to stay within the same parameters. Therefore, every company is somewhat restricted by market demands. Let's remember they are here to make a profit. When B&W gave their engineers free rein, unfettered by market demands or profitability requirements, they came up with the Nautilus, a speaker unlike anything else in their line. Infinity did the same thing with the IRS. Statement pieces that truly push the sota are wonderfull, but rarely profitable.

[dean_martin]

Performance oriented brands are generally more expensive than the value brands, less expensive than the prestige brands, but eschew glamour and style to pursue high-end sound at a reasonable price by avoiding compromise and engaging in sensible, pragmatic design. Unfortunately, performance oriented brands are few and far between.

John - are you at liberty to name-drop? How about identifying some "performance oriented brands". Depending on economic circumstances at the relevant time, I simply can't or won't spend the money on those prestige brands, but I can't stand the bargain stuff.

[RGA]

Dean Martin

Beware

John Ashman is an NHT Salesman. So expect the sales pitch for the XD system.

[Mr Peabody]

Topper, what you are describing I refer to as system Synergy. That is a real consideration and sometimes obstacle if it's not there. When I bought my first Krell integrated I already had an Arcam Alpha 9 cdp, it was apparent that the player had better synergy with my old amp so I eventually traded it up to a Krell cdp which made the system fall into place. I've played with other cd players and I think a lot of the synergy with Krell is due to the balanced circuits and inputs. Even without the synergy I could tell the Krell amp killed the one I was using.

BUT, no amount of synergy or lack there of will make a $2 or 300.00 Fisher cd player out perform a Krell of any price. That's a ridiculus statement for anyone to make, especially one claiming to have audio experience.

[dean_martin]

Dean Martin

Beware

John Ashman is an NHT Salesman. So expect the sales pitch for the XD system.

Don't worry, RGA. I have 2 pairs of SuperOnes. Although I like'em, I'm going to try something else when I move up from their price bracket. I also know that his recommendations are his opinions based on his experiences, but it doesn't hurt anything to hear various opinions. It's difficult for me to audition a lot of speakers because of where I live. However, I travel enough to where I can do a little research ahead of time and find a place to audition speakers and other components. Due to time constraints on my trips I usually plan to listen to 2 or 3 speakers. I've heard Maggies in Denver, B&Ws, MAs and Revels in Mobile, Martin Logans and Nola Alons in Birmingham, Paradigms in Pensacola and Meadowlarks and Vandersteens in Atlanta. I was planning a trip to the Gulfport/Biloxi area to listen to some Von Schweikerts before Katrina hit.

[John Ashman]

Dean Martin

Beware

John Ashman is an NHT Salesman. So expect the sales pitch for the XD system.

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs :)

[theaudiohobby]

That one pretty much speaks for itself. I can't add much there.

John,

Why not quote the full text of the paragraph in question, afterall the answer to the smoking gun is second part that you glaringly omitted.

[John Ashman]

Feel free to post away. All they say is that an FST cone can produce wider dispersion than a standard 6" cone, which isn't saying much. The problem with this is that it causes more ON AXIS distortion of the sound in order to increase the quality of OFF AXIS sound. If you really want to take the discussion in this direction, that's fine with me, but it's not good for B&W. There are several *better* solutions to the dispersion problem, but none of those are an excuse to use kevlar.

[theaudiohobby]

Its all about trade offs, your comments previously where about cone-breakup...


The break-up pattern of woven Kevlar® has proved beneficial for use in midrange and
bass/midrange units, being superior to many other materials, not only because of
the inherent properties of Kevlar, but also because the woven cone is not axi-symmetric.


Any comments why B&W and many others use "woven" kevlar?

PS: I am not sure of the specific white paper you are quoting from, which of the white papers will it be?

[Florian]

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs :)
Interesting i didnt even know that. I am a dealer for VMPS, Ampzilla and RTFS but i dont advertise for it on the forums. You should mention that you are a dealer, this makes your opinion a tad different.

-Flo

[John Ashman]

Its all about trade offs, your comments previously where about cone-breakup...

Yes, but, remember, the upper management has boxed the engineers into a) using a 3-way, b) using only one midrange and c) using kevlar, at least for now. If your boss pays you to make a bridge out of paper, you get creative, but that doesn't make it as good as using steel and concrete. Remember also, when *freed* from constraints, the solution was the genune Nautilus speaker which used metal drivers in a 4-way design with a wide dispersion dome midrange. The advantages? Wider dispersion, lower distortion, less "shouty" sound (the upper midrange of a kevlar cone behave as if in a horn, because it is), higher output. All of the advantages B&W claims to desire, but can't produce because they are "boxed in" by management. One might say "but a 4-way design like the Nautilus is too expensive", but NHT is shipping an $1800/pr 4-way speaker with all metal drivers and far more in common with Nautilus than any current B&W product. It is possible to do. There is no excuse except for the fact that Kevlar is popular and they want to roll with that until it isn't popular. Which is why I predict that the next gen midrange in the 800 series will be some form of proprietary ceramic or other composite that "solves" their problems. Watch for it. And then it will trickle down from there.


Any comments why B&W and many others use "woven" kevlar?

Yes, it breaks up some of the modes (not all) on the cone. It is critical to do that or the sound would be truly and obviously awful. It simply creates discontinuities in the resonances of the cones which helps break them up a bit and dampen them down.

I worked at a B&W dealer when the 600 series was replacing the 500 series and Kevlar was trickling down to the 600s for the first time. It wasn't pretty. The 630's poly midrange was *far* superior* to the 640's kevlar midrange. It was when I learned to dislike the sound because I could actually hear two different solutions from the same company and the poly solution was obviously superior. I like a lot of B&W's old speakers, especially the Matrix 3, so it has nothing to do with the company itself.


PS: I am not sure of the specific white paper you are quoting from, which of the white papers will it be?

The 800D development paper. They are actually quite honest in the obstacles they face and how the (somewhat) overcome them. The problem is that there are *better* solutions to the ones they used, but they are prevented from using them. They don't say "management made us do this", but it is implied that they have boundaries - high output, wide dispersion, but with only one midrange whereas most companies would either do dual 5" drivers (as in the Matrix 800) or a mid/midbass combo as in the actual Nautilus, most NHTs, Energy Veritas, etc.

[John Ashman]

Interesting i didnt even know that. I am a dealer for VMPS, Ampzilla and RTFS but i dont advertise for it on the forums. You should mention that you are a dealer, this makes your opinion a tad different.

Yes, but also a tad more informed ;)

I thought you knew that from Audio Circle. Oh well, I hate parading the fact that I'm a dealer because I'm an enthusiast. What sucks is no one ever allows you to "punch out".

[Florian]

20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

[Florian]

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs :)
20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

[Florian]

Tell me about it, i was a moderator but the problem is that you can't speak your mind freely and have to be neutral ;)

-Flo

PS: Doesn't matter if you have knowledge or not, i learned that people will make their own truth. Trust me on this, its a waste of time to repeat yourself or post facts. People consider true what they want. :p

[John Ashman]

20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

And Quads! Nah, I'm just giving RGA crap. He's drunken the Snell/Audio Note kool-aid. Kinda like folks that picked a year to stop listening to new music ;)

[Florian]

Well i sealed my year ongoing fight with RGA, so please dont start again. It was horrible!
RGA and I are audioreview semi-advert stones :p He loved AN and i love Apogee, and everyone knows we are biased :D

[John Ashman]

Well i sealed my year ongoing fight with RGA, so please dont start again. It was horrible!
RGA and I are audioreview semi-advert stones :p He loved AN and i love Apogee, and everyone knows we are biased :D

Don't worry, I have no intention of doing anything but avoiding RGA. And I was going to further nitpick some of your "ribbon theories" and "cone theories" but then I realized that I might as well try to convince Michael Moore to be a Republican ;)

[Florian]

Exactly, noone will ever sway me to a cone speaker. I can hear a cone and box with my eyes closed. Place me in a showroom blindfolded and i will tell you what has a box and what not, and if it has one it already failed :p

[Florian]

Too bad you're in Germany, your preconceptions are safe. For the moment ;)
Not a chance, i heard all the high end box setups. I heard the DALI Megaline completely actively driven with room correction. What your NHT setup is, i heard it and will never buy it over a ribbon system. But you can have a chance if you show me a dealer in germany, but i can already tell you whats gonna happen :p

[GMichael]

Exactly, noone will ever sway me to a cone speaker. I can hear a cone and box with my eyes closed. Place me in a showroom blindfolded and i will tell you what has a box and what not, and if it has one it already failed :p

Oh come on Flo. You know that you love those Bose cubes. Admit it.

[Florian]

Oh come on Flo. You know that you love those Bose cubes. Admit it.
Alright you got me. Those cubes are really somthing! :cool:

[John Ashman]

Not a chance, i heard all the high end box setups.

Not all of them ;)


I heard the DALI Megaline completely actively driven with room correction. What your NHT setup is, i [haven't] heard it and will never buy it over a ribbon system. But you can have a chance if you show me a dealer in germany, but i can already tell you whats gonna happen :p

Hah, with that prejudice? What's the point?
:confused:

As you said, people make up their own truth. ;)

[GMichael]

Alright you got me. Those cubes are really somthing! :cool:

Ok, I'll pack up some cubes and send them to you with my next shipment to Germany. I'll have my contact there pick up your old maggies as an exchange. This way you'll have no frieght to pay. I think I still have those 9 hundred and one cubes I bought from the guy in the white van.

We'll do a straight trade. I'll even throw in some magical pixie snot, no charge.

[Florian]

Not all of them ;)

Hah, with that prejudice? What's the point?
:confused:

As you said, people make up their own truth. ;)
Exactly, its not a dipole, doesnt have a ribbon, it has a box and small cute drivers. Already failed for me, so there is no need to try to make me want them. This is not a question about money, but about taste and why should i listen to a system that i already dont like ;)

[Florian]

Ok, I'll pack up some cubes and send them to you with my next shipment to Germany. I'll have my contact there pick up your old maggies as an exchange. This way you'll have no frieght to pay. I think I still have those 9 hundred and one cubes I bought from the guy in the white van.

We'll do a straight trade. I'll even throw in some magical pixie snot, no charge.
Wow your a class A guy all the way! I cant wait to get that magix pixie and rub it on the contacts of the cubes. It will beat the NHT's and the DIVA's. BOSE rules. Better sound through advertising !!!

[GMichael]

Wow your a class A guy all the way! I cant wait to get that magix pixie and rub it on the contacts of the cubes. It will beat the NHT's and the DIVA's. BOSE rules. Better sound through advertising !!!

HAHAHAHA, Just don't forget to send those old Maggies. I bet you don't even have them anymore. Besides, what would I drive them with, my receiver? Does anyone smell smoke?

[Florian]

HAHAHAHA, Just don't forget to send those old Maggies. I bet you don't even have them anymore. Besides, what would I drive them with, my receiver? Does anyone smell smoke?
I still have the first good speakers i ever heard. My 0.5 Maggies! My friends Scintilla and MG20 are out for repair so he is using them currently after giving back a highly aclaimed box speaker from his dealer. They still sound wonderfull!

-Flo

[GMichael]

I still have the first good speakers i ever heard. My 0.5 Maggies! My friends Scintilla and MG20 are out for repair so he is using them currently after giving back a highly aclaimed box speaker from his dealer. They still sound wonderfull!

-Flo

That's OK. I'll still send the pixie snot. Be sure to put it on all your connections. You'll have to find your own cat though. By the way, you can use a live cat as long as you wear long sleeves and heavy gloves.

[RGA]

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs :)

Yes you recommend the other brands you profit from. I recommend way way more brands than you do. I happen to recommend the one I found to be the best - but then it would be irresponsible of me to recommend what I think is 9th best and not the one I like most.

[RGA]

Don't worry, RGA. I have 2 pairs of SuperOnes. Although I like'em, I'm going to try something else when I move up from their price bracket. I also know that his recommendations are his opinions based on his experiences, but it doesn't hurt anything to hear various opinions. It's difficult for me to audition a lot of speakers because of where I live. However, I travel enough to where I can do a little research ahead of time and find a place to audition speakers and other components. Due to time constraints on my trips I usually plan to listen to 2 or 3 speakers. I've heard Maggies in Denver, B&Ws, MAs and Revels in Mobile, Martin Logans and Nola Alons in Birmingham, Paradigms in Pensacola and Meadowlarks and Vandersteens in Atlanta. I was planning a trip to the Gulfport/Biloxi area to listen to some Von Schweikerts before Katrina hit.

Well if you ever come to Victoria Canada (take the ferry from Seattle) drop by Soundhounds in Victoria -- it would be nice to actually hear some of these in the exact same listening rooms with an extensive amount of gear. There is also the Audio Show in Vegas in January -- All the companies generally attend -- Audio Note will have two rooms this year so I am trying to pull the coinage together to go.

If you came up to Nanaimo (an hour notrh of Victoria i'd let you listen to my set-up...but I'd rather "pit" them against something esopecially when one is unfamiliar with the room acoustics (same room then all speakers have the same/similar advantage disadvantage if approprioate size room).

Soundhounds has several fellows scope out new stuff to carry from CES and I have mentioned Von Sweikert as something to go listen to as well and Spender. Neither seems well represented in BC.

[John Ashman]

Yes you recommend the other brands you profit from. I recommend way way more brands than you do. I happen to recommend the one I found to be the best - but then it would be irresponsible of me to recommend what I think is 9th best and not the one I like most.

How exactly to I profit from PSB, Triad, Revel, Energy, etc? The problem for me is that I find most products to have heavily compromized design, obvious sonic flaws, or are terribly overpriced. I'm more picky than you are, obviously.

Plus, I'm "damned if I do, damned if I don't." My favorite brand is clearly NHT (which is why I get practically everything else in trade), but if I recommend it, I'm a shill. And, apparently, if I recommend something other than NHT, I'm "irresponsible".

BTW, I just got a review in for you to read on Xd, smarty pants -

http://www.adnm.com/pdfs/australianxdreview.pdf

[thepogue]

the only difference is some make cash and some reward their egos by beating the drums of certain products.....I for one welcome dealers here for their take on their particular wares...it cannot in any way be any more bias than the wave horse do-do we've been fed over the last couple of years...like the ole saying goes..." they can put anything in your mouth...you gotta do the chewing...." so if we have a dealer here...no biggie......it's the ego-dealers that make me spit rather than chew....never mind swallow!!

Peace, Pogue

[Peter Duminy]

RGA

My Son and I will be popping across the Straights soon to visit the folks at TC-Helicon at Bertram Place, so I will check out Soundhounds. Sounds like a great store. If we make it upto Nanaimo, perhaps we can pop in for a cup of tea and a bun?..? :D

[RGA]

How exactly to I profit from PSB, Triad, Revel, Energy, etc? The problem for me is that I find most products to have heavily compromized design, obvious sonic flaws, or are terribly overpriced. I'm more picky than you are, obviously.

Plus, I'm "damned if I do, damned if I don't." My favorite brand is clearly NHT (which is why I get practically everything else in trade), but if I recommend it, I'm a shill. And, apparently, if I recommend something other than NHT, I'm "irresponsible".

BTW, I just got a review in for you to read on Xd, smarty pants -

http://www.adnm.com/pdfs/australianxdreview.pdf

That's interesting I never read you recommend any of these other ones. Though having heard PSB and Energy I certainly know where you come from -- Interestingly the Veritas have many of the problems you associate to B&W - Energy's saving grace is they are less pricey. It's a shame you should come up here and bring ANY PSB or Energy standmount along and we'll do a little shootout.

And if I'm not mistaken Revel's chief guy is Kevin Voecks formerly of Snell (he worked with Peter Snell incidentally). Unfortunately when Snell died Voecks took the reigns and made crappy models like the B-Minor (now just another retread nothing speaker they had to drop because prospective customers heard the models). Very nice looking and slim models with puny bass response no cohesion terrible to try and position properly and re-sellers nightmare. Commercial Electronics tried to sell me the b-Minor but the salesman and I just could not stop laughing at how truly terrible it sounded. "I can;t sell you these it's just too embarrassing." Though really a $5,000.00 speaker only 18 months old and they were asking $1800.00 and still had trouble selling it. Voecks driove them into the ground with such rubbish...so I'm not surprised at all you like his designs.

Some speakers(not every model but selected ones) I recommend are from Gershman Acoustics, Magnepan, Energy, Athena Acoustics, PMC, Dynaudio, Reference 3a, Linn, B&W, Paradigm, Wharfedale, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, Sonus Faber, Polk Audio, Pro-Ac, Totem, JM Labs.

Not all for audiophilia nervosa types obviously but I can;t say i've heard a single NHT that didn't remind me of nails on chalkboard and uneven presentation - and some of these disasters were well reviewed too -- just as the B-Minor was well reviewed. Indeed, it seems I am more picky...I understand what a person wants and try and suggest what they "might" like at a given price and a given musical preference they want presented in either an accurate or fun way (sometimes both not always). But when big old drab flabby incoherent tubby stuff comes along like the B-Minor and then they have the nerve to charge obscene prices for it then I get upset. And when speaker companies put out a NEW and improved speaker and charges 30% more money like the B&W 705 over the CDM 1NT and it gets worse then I'll dump on them -- and when Audio note puts out the AX One a rather boring boxy dumpy totally unexciting beaten by speakers half the price I'll tell people like I have done on this forum in the past. Only though if people are asking about the model in question.

The AN J by the way murders the Veritas 2.2 A good but spitsy speaker with false detail and relatively puny dynamics. I say relatively because in its own right it sounds quite good for the money and certainly worthy to be checked out - The J is considerably more expensive so it should be put up against the 2.4 But this floorstander doesn;t have the J's bass response and it doesn't gel very well from top to bottom (Though I wopuld take ot over anything in the 700 series from B&W) The Top Energy still has less bass depth than the AN J has less sensitivity and requires several drivers and cheap cabinetry in order to wrestle all that less sound off the disc. And their treble does them in.

The 2.8 which I don;t think they make anymore, other than the high treble, was quite an entertaining open and powerful sounding speaker which i felt was a relative steal for the $5kCad price it was going at. Big bold taught and powerful and elegant with bags and baggs of drive. The 2.4 is solid but still has issues that i could not live with. Though interestingly I like it a fair bit more than the standmount which is not common.

No one sells Revel here - but being from Voecks I'm not expecing much.

[RGA]

RGA

My Son and I will be popping across the Straights soon to visit the folks at TC-Helicon at Bertram Place, so I will check out Soundhounds. Sounds like a great store. If we make it upto Nanaimo, perhaps we can pop in for a cup of tea and a bun?..? :D

No problems -- give me some notice. I will be very busy from now through December 17th as I'm in my final semester at MAL-U. I have a 6 week practicum that will bury me for a while.

You're going to make me self-conscious with your background in speaker design - how are you at room acoustics :D I am not entirely convinced by my panelling -- It helped reduce the slap echo I was having but it seems to have overdeadened the sound a little. Damn apartment buildings. Plus in about 5 months I'll be leaving the country and storing all my gear anyway -- so panelling is a bit of a waste. Gots to make money by new turntable/DAC/ house to make sound better.

As an aside: The MAL-U has taken in Katrina victims so that students from Universities in New Orleans etc can continue their studies here so they don't lose a semester...And they're being charged the home rate instead of the abroad rate which comparatively saves them a bucket load.

[John Ashman]

Some speakers(not every model but selected ones) I recommend are from Gershman Acoustics, Magnepan, Energy, Athena Acoustics, PMC, Dynaudio, Reference 3a, Linn, B&W, Paradigm, Wharfedale, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, Sonus Faber, Polk Audio, Pro-Ac, Totem, JM Labs.

I don't know all of those, but if you think Linn, B&W, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin-Vega, Polk make recommendable speakers, let's just say we have completely different tastes, will never agree and I have no reason now to bother trying to find one of the 5 or 10 Audio Note dealers in the US. I don't like colored speakers, thanks.


Not all for audiophilia nervosa types obviously but I can;t say i've heard a single NHT that didn't remind me of nails on chalkboard and uneven presentation - and some of these disasters were well reviewed too

Yeah, I suppose one of the best known and reviewed speaker companies for performance AND value made "well reviewed disasters" and just got lucky. If you think NHT reminds you of nails on a chalkboard and Klipsh or C-V don't, I'm speechless. I do nothing but trade in most of your recommended brands for NHT all year long. Right now, I've got some Linn Espeks traded in for Xd, Klispch KG 2.5s traded in for SB1s, B&W M801 IIIs traded in for NHT M6s. I did finally get rid of the Mission 775 towers, but at 25% of retail because *no one* would buy them the moment they heard a $500 NHT bookshelf.


No one sells Revel here - but being from Voecks I'm not expecing much.

Which is why I don't value your opinion in the least.

[RGA]

Well you didn't read what I said so that's fine. If someone wants heavey metal at 110decibals for a big room to throw parties and has $1kCdn then some hack NHT dealer will come along and suggest some prissy little standmount over the Cerwin Vega D9.

You would recommend such a system because YOU profit from NHT while I on the other hand would actually pay attention to what the person wants -- and for a great many applications the D-9 will trounce an NHT standmount and for that matter AN standmounts. Which is precisely why i said not all those I recommend are to support "audiophile nervosa" people who buy speakers because they have textbook measurements but sound banal and uninspired. I want a company who has 1or 2 people who have vast experience listening to real live music and build their speakers with technology but also with their ear and will have the balls to choose the listening experience over the measured response.

Funny the NHT dealer here went out of business because everyone would rather buy B&W loudspeakers. NHT has zero presence here because their speakers are as I described. AN has few dealers by choice not circumstance. Just as Rolls Royce would not want some Used Car dealer types selling their vehicles Peter would not want a bunch of also-rans selling his gear. Since they're about the customer making the decision with their ears rather than pushy dealers like you telling customers what they should like and buy he has to be relatively selective who carries his line and who may tarnish it if he chooses wrong.

Audio Note sells more gear at Soundhounds than any other brand -- including Bryston. They have dropped two brands Totem, and Martin Logan and the B&W N801 because the N801 kept being returned - and given the floor space they take up the store didn;t like having the same speaker keep coming back!

It is interesting that all those brands are far easier to sell because they all take out endless adverts and have reams and reams of reviews for their gear -- and are home theater friendly and often cheaper.

Coloured the AN's may be -- But if I get 95% of the recording with 5% added colour or I get 2% colouration and 55% of what was on the disc thanks I choose the first one every time. And as was mentioned in an AN J review he noted colouration UNTIL he connected them to the matching AN amp when the colouration dissapeared. See good speakers will give you the source's weaknesses both the equipment and the recording process' weaknesses -- and of course you hear a homogenized sameness with NHT because they have poor resoloution so its not surprising that you know doubt feel that all amps and cd players sound the same.

B&W often says a similar thing that they are telling you the weaknesses of upstream gear -- but the difference is that it's usually always bright or brittle with everything so you realize that it's not telling you the weakness of recordings or amplifiers because the weaknesses or difference is always one of edgyness or shrillness. Then you realize that it's just the speaker's mismatching for tweeter and midwoofer and perhaps all the things you complain about with kevlar and the crossover. I certainly hear what you hear with a number of B&W loudspeakers. The bad thing about Audio Note silver wired speakers is that they are sensitive to front ends and while they sound fine badly positioned they are picky about where they're put to avoid midrange colour. Hi-Fi Choice is the publication that calls the AN's fairly coloured but they run SS amplification and their room has no usable corner -- and despite being badly positioned and run with gear the owner doesn;t want running them -- they use the speaker and have since 1992 as a reference tool to judge equipment in their listening tests. DESPITE putting the speakers in a position to perform their worst they STILL manage top marks. Get them in a corner and the colouration goes away. No one would put a K-horn 8 feet into the room and 5 feet from the side walls with no corners and expect results and if someone puts the NHT 3.3 in a corner they'd sure sound coloured too.

And of all the $20k speakers he could have purchased and he's heard a lot this is what he bought http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SILVER.html

[Peter Duminy]

Just a clarification, the "Peter" RGA is referring to is Peter Qvortrup and not yours truly here. Although I wouldn't mind Peter Q's Bank Balance though! :D Just joking of course.

[theaudiohobby]

RGA,

Now that is rambling, the man said he does not care for your opinion and then you proceed with five extra paragraphs of jive :confused: . :D

PS: Stay true to your signature line, Ignore the press. ;)

[thepogue]

sorry....i couldn't help meself...I really needed that...sorry...excuse me....pardon me....really...sorry...I'm ill...sorry...couldn't hold back....excuse me...pardon me...(slides out the back door)...


lmao, Pogue

[Florian]

I think you guys really need to listen to RGA instead of doing the same thing that happend to me. You take the 5% of BS and value the other 95% of his text with it. He has a good point, if i want a 110db Rock Concert in my 60m2 room than you wont buy a bloddy mini-monitor with deqx or tact equipment. I am a dealer, but dont shout that my stuff is the best there is. If someone likes it, its cool with me. I never cared and still dont care for B&W, Dynaudio, PSB, Snell or Martin Logans (exept for the CLSII).....and quite frankly would buy a mini monitor for my bathroom for shower music, but thats it.

-Flo

PS: I dont agree with Johns opinion either but you all need to stop this silly BS and give credit to RGA and John!

[Jimmy C]

...err, maybe in a half-assed "if you can't buy/find A.N." sort of way :^) There is always an underlying negative associated with the other recommendations. I believe you know what I mean...

I wouldn't comment on the Revel line until you have actually heard them... good audio suggestion, eh? I know they represent the "big machine" you dislike so much, but c'mon! One can't pontificate. I also have owned a pair of Peter Snell Snells... they were flat-out bad. I'm not guessing, that's my opinion based upon owning. My M20s aren't perfect (natch), but were better to me for $2K (and sometimes $4K) than anything I have heard... and I have a LOT of brands in my area to listen to. Boy, when I finally DO get to PA (Philly area) those Audio Notes better blow me away...lol. My local dealer dumped them.

I have, in the past, agreed with much of what you have said... politics included. Audio wise, I believe in hearing before commenting.

[thepogue]

but I can't tell you what I sell...or where.....but witout "tooting" my own horn my itmes are the best north of south america!! did I say "tooting'?...what I meant to say is...ah...well...ah...I gotta run!!


lol, Pogue

[Florian]

...err, maybe in a half-assed "if you can't buy/find A.N." sort of way :^) There is always an underlying negative associated with the other recommendations. I believe you know what I mean...

I wouldn't comment on the Revel line until you have actually heard them... good audio suggestion, eh? I know they represent the "big machine" you dislike so much, but c'mon! One can't pontificate. I also have owned a pair of Peter Snell Snells... they were flat-out bad. I'm not guessing, that's my opinion based upon owning. My M20s aren't perfect (natch), but were better to me for $2K (and sometimes $4K) than anything I have heard... and I have a LOT of brands in my area to listen to. Boy, when I finally DO get to PA (Philly area) those Audio Notes better blow me away...lol. My local dealer dumped them.

I have, in the past, agreed with much of what you have said... politics included. Audio wise, I believe in hearing before commenting.
Yes, i know what you mean and know that RGA has a certain aftertaste. But so do i, well everyone knows that i am biased ;) I just dont want a big splash fight like in the old days. I learned to accept him and i learned to accept everyones decision. But also i would not listen to anything other than Apogee personally, i can still recomend other brands that i think someone might like.

-Flo

PS: Good to know that someone agreed to my politics :p

[thepogue]

one of them has salons up front and studios in the rear...I'm not overly impressed...not at the price...but like you all kiddin aside to each his own. I'm all ears. BTW I've always enjoyed the NHT's line...I love the piano finish and the angles on some of the models....I never say never about equipment (ie I'll never buy anything but bla bla bla) and although my Prodigy's are the best I've ever had in my home...but who knows...only the shadow knows!!


Pogue

[RGA]

RGA,

Now that is rambling, the man said he does not care for your opinion and then you proceed with five extra paragraphs of jive :confused: . :D

PS: Stay true to your signature line, Ignore the press. ;)

Constantine Soo isn't the press. He's an audiophile writer who umm bought the speaker.

[RGA]

It's funny because virtually every person in this thread is virtually a polar opposite in their take on what the right sound should be. We have opne panel owner who doesn;t like the panels of another, we have a guy selling a new sub satellite as the panacea of greatness, another stadfast on the usual standmount etc.

I am not about to convince or try and convince others of my preference. Jimmy is not to far off in that I compare other speakers to Audio Note or in relation to them so I typically note thir weaknesses or strengths in relation to them. That is not surprising when after 4 years of auditions I feel I chose the best of the ones I had heard. And so too should others be doing the same. I sure will say try and find AN first and then to my second and third choice. One reason for that is there are not a ton of dealers and it was a stroke of fluke that I ever found them. I don't tout my second and third choices because if they had been closer I would have bought them in year 1 or 2 of auditioning and not held off and held off because I wasn't completely impressed. I have a tough time suggesting speakers that while I like a great deal that I also know I would not really have liked to buy myself. And that is a very big deal - I like ver much the Dane 42 and it's my second choice to the Audio note AX Two in the price class. It's really only my second choice due to power demands and non tube friendliness and the space it needs. Sound for sound in my short term listening sessions with both they're close enough. But the Dane won't be able to use the amps I think are better sounding and the fatigue factor takes out the fun of listening so it's my second choice. The big disadvantage with Audio Note speakers K, J and E are that they in a way have the reverse problem the Danes have in that they really are overly sesnitive to the ancilliary gear - they don't allow for mixing and matching as well as some others. And they are not going to WOW people in a short duration store demo. But then if a speaker is WOWING chances are it's doing something wrong in my view.

[GMichael]

Um, while you guys are on a truce, what do all of you think of the KEF speakers?
Not to hijack this thread or anything.

[Florian]

RGA:

Your statment about one panel owner who doesnt like other panels is wrong. Just like you i like one panel better than the others, same goes for your AN. You like one box better than the other ;) Thats because they are all different!

[Florian]

Um, while you guys are on a truce, what do all of you think of the KEF speakers?
Not to hijack this thread or anything.
Good build quality, innovative and quite underrated in the box realm.

-Flo

PS: Dont worry about the thread, this isnt about a 800 anymore :cool:

[thepogue]

RGA:

Your statment about one panel owner who doesnt like other panels is wrong. Just like you i like one panel better than the others, same goes for your AN. You like one box better than the other ;) Thats because they are all different!
I love KEF.....like a smooth brandy....been around for more than a day...and will be around for years to come. the 104's are great speakers in the used realm.


Peace, Pogue

[Jimmy C]

It's funny because virtually every person in this thread is virtually a polar opposite in their take on what the right sound should be. We have opne panel owner who doesn;t like the panels of another, we have a guy selling a new sub satellite as the panacea of greatness, another stadfast on the usual standmount etc.

I am not about to convince or try and convince others of my preference. Jimmy is not to far off in that I compare other speakers to Audio Note or in relation to them so I typically note thir weaknesses or strengths in relation to them. That is not surprising when after 4 years of auditions I feel I chose the best of the ones I had heard. And so too should others be doing the same. I sure will say try and find AN first and then to my second and third choice. One reason for that is there are not a ton of dealers and it was a stroke of fluke that I ever found them. I don't tout my second and third choices because if they had been closer I would have bought them in year 1 or 2 of auditioning and not held off and held off because I wasn't completely impressed. I have a tough time suggesting speakers that while I like a great deal that I also know I would not really have liked to buy myself. And that is a very big deal - I like ver much the Dane 42 and it's my second choice to the Audio note AX Two in the price class. It's really only my second choice due to power demands and non tube friendliness and the space it needs. Sound for sound in my short term listening sessions with both they're close enough. But the Dane won't be able to use the amps I think are better sounding and the fatigue factor takes out the fun of listening so it's my second choice. The big disadvantage with Audio Note speakers K, J and E are that they in a way have the reverse problem the Danes have in that they really are overly sesnitive to the ancilliary gear - they don't allow for mixing and matching as well as some others. And they are not going to WOW people in a short duration store demo. But then if a speaker is WOWING chances are it's doing something wrong in my view.

...what you mean by "wowing" at first blush, but I do look for something that has good bass and dynamics when cost and size is considered. I suppose one could say these aspects are "wowing". Are these BAD things to look for? Not quite sure what you mean.

And sure, it should sound open and resolving, getting texture correct. "Wow"! That piano key had some weight to it! I could get excited about this as well. Once again, not a bad thing, IMO.

I'm not a big fan of relying on store demoes either, but it's usually good enough for me to norrow down what I want to take home and try... the Dyn 1.3 were my runner-up. Both of these sounded quite different once I got them home. I agree in that the Audience line are pretty good... they have nice body and a pleasing "warmth" to them.

And Pogue - if yer a readin'...

I have never heard the top Revels... only up to the F50s. I have heard that they need careful attention to set-up and ancillaries. You are right, though... between $10 and $20K is a lotta coin for a pair of speakers. I thought the F50s were beautiful (err... to listen to, not so much look at). A local dealer got rid of his 801s in for them. I would choose them as well, saving $4.5K.

[theaudiohobby]

Constantine Soo isn't the press. He's an audiophile writer who umm bought the speaker.

The same Constantine Soo that wrote this (http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm) :eek: . Try a better line next time :cool: .

[Florian]

Did you post that to prove him wrong about the reviewer part?

[RGA]

The same Constantine Soo that wrote this (http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm) :eek: . Try a better line next time :cool: .

Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.

He sure has deeper pockets than I.

[Florian]

Neat he has the very first Duetta!

-Flo

[RGA]

Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.

My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) :D so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php

What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?

The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.

My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.

You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."

Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful

[RGA]

Neat he has the very first Duetta!

-Flo

he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.

I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.

And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well.

[Florian]

he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.

I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.

And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well. Like i said, the old Dueatta. The First revision of the Duetta and build wise and soundwise the worst Duetta. The best one being the Duetta 2 MKII Reference Edition. Still kicks ass tough.

-Flo

PS: Panels are very different and sound very different from each other. Also they are highly picky on driving electronics and positioning by inches. Too give you a start about panel bass...my DIVA was measured yesterday in my room at -1db at 23Hz and output below 20. Panels can have serious bass and dynamics.

[Mr Peabody]

I like to bring some of my own discs because that's what I'm familiar with and one needs a point of reference. Nothing shows off the difference in a component like putting it your own system though.

I brought the Sheffield Labs James Newton Howard & Friends to a store one time and heard it played on a Rotel system. That's what formed my opinion of Rotel, finding them laid back and sluggish sounding. Anyone familiar with this disc should realize it is quite snappy and dynamic. So sometimes it is helpful to have your own point of reference. The salesman suggested that my equipment may have scued my opinion, that my gear was too fast. This CD was used by IASCA as a reference in car audio contests and used as a demo by many of my friends who are in audio sales and I'm reasonably sure this recording is snappy and dynamic.

I can also remember being in the shoes of the guy RGA described, the first time I walked into a truely high end audio store with my Great White CD and had the guy play it through a Krell system driving a $25k pair of Dynaudio speakers I remember thinking "where's the mid-bass, this isn't so great" and then the guy put the Paula Cole CD in, which I hadn't heard before, and the first track had some incredible low end, and my jaw dropped in amazement. I felt like an earthquake hit the building.

Flo- you and I must have totally different characteristics we listen for, you dislike 2 of my favorite brands, Dynaudio and Martin Logan.

[GMichael]

I love KEF.....like a smooth brandy....been around for more than a day...and will be around for years to come. the 104's are great speakers in the used realm.


Peace, Pogue

Cool, Thanks.

[GMichael]

Good build quality, innovative and quite underrated in the box realm.

-Flo

PS: Dont worry about the thread, this isnt about a 800 anymore :cool:

Thank you

[Jimmy C]

Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.

My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) :D so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php

What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?

The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.

My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.

You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."

Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful

...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?

I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.

I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...

[theaudiohobby]

Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.

He sure has deeper pockets than I.

At the time of that review, he was writing for StereoTimes, so yes so he was a member of the press.

[RGA]

Yes but he did buy the speakers - did not know it was an actual hard print magazine??? Where do you buy a store copy?

Steven Rochlin was an audiophile and drummer who I believe started up enjoythemusic.com and became the chief editor where other audiophiles who felt like writing a review would submit them. Rochlin is not paid. Constantine Soo is not paid (to my knowledge). John Atkinson and Sam Tellig, Martin Colloms, and John Marks ARE paid and make profit.

Of course you are correct that one does not need to read a review nor should they base their opinion off one. Using a review to illustrate a different point though such as the way I have used it here is not to "prove" that you will like it but rather there are those who have many speakers and like a number of them. I could merely TELL you that I know of a person and you could think I made it up.

Of course none of it means that Mr. Soo is any more correct than any Joe blow off the street -- so on that the point is well taken. Even in a blind listening trial if you had 20 people and 18 chose the AN set-up that means that 2 did not or vice versa so until you're in it you can't know.

[RGA]

...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?

I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.

I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...

Accuracy as described in that essay and within the confines of it. One would have to agree on how much stock one puts into that definition. It can apply to any brand though and many other speakers may do very well. It just isn't about the speakers though there are symibotic relationship with the ancillaries and room. I usually don't post short duration listening sessions or first time listening sessions precisely because that can be a bad first impression or bad system match. I have done so since but I am sure to be upfront when I do like I was with my B&W Diamond session. Usually, as with a number of toher speakers i have listened to them on a few noteworthy systems and in at least two different rooms and for at least a few different tracks of music that I do know fairly well.

That of course runs counter intuitive to AN's CbyC method. Trouble is their method takes a long time and like you I'm not entirely trusting of dealers who may choose the music that the given speakers excel at. I don't want a speaker that covers over weaknesses but I also don;t want one that latches on to a minor problem and iover blow it so that it is totally unlistenable -- such a speaker may overblow a well recorded album but overblowing something that is well recorded won't likely make it sound terrible but give you a wow factor. But then it boils down to taste and if this is what one likes then go for it.

This realization is precisely why I have begun to think about easing my way off the internet. Getting caught up in the subjective argument is ike arguing the Schindler's List is a better movie than Ace Ventura Pet Detective --- which was also a tiresome argument which is why I no longer post at Rottentomatoes.

I have listened to a number of Paradigm/B&W speakers over the years and I found something that I felt bettered handedly anything I had heard from other makers. So trying to convey that to people who may not know about them was the intent. Especially a little plug for the dealer that carried all of them I felt that hey don't trust me just go down there and directly A/B them and see if you agree with me. Here's some reviews X Y and Z knowing many only respond to press first. Unfortunately I wrote in a very heavy handed way blasting some of the other brands in the process where I should have just discussed the merits of the AN speaker I heard and left it at that. Live and learn eh?

[dean_martin]

Well if you ever come to Victoria Canada (take the ferry from Seattle) drop by Soundhounds in Victoria -- it would be nice to actually hear some of these in the exact same listening rooms with an extensive amount of gear. There is also the Audio Show in Vegas in January -- All the companies generally attend -- Audio Note will have two rooms this year so I am trying to pull the coinage together to go.

If you came up to Nanaimo (an hour notrh of Victoria i'd let you listen to my set-up...but I'd rather "pit" them against something esopecially when one is unfamiliar with the room acoustics (same room then all speakers have the same/similar advantage disadvantage if approprioate size room).

Soundhounds has several fellows scope out new stuff to carry from CES and I have mentioned Von Sweikert as something to go listen to as well and Spender. Neither seems well represented in BC.

Hey, RGA - I just saw your post. This thread had gotten a little long for my attention span. Thanks, for the invite! I hope to take the family to the Pacific NW one day.

I keep up with the schedules for the different home entertainment shows, too. I missed the Rocky Mountain show by a month or so. Oh well, a little better planning on my part might get me to one in NY or Vegas.

[RGA]

The one in Vegas is usually held or so I'm tol early January -- last year it was around the 6th. I graduate in December and I'd like to give this to myself as a grad gift and a Birthday present (Jan 11th). I will have to check my budget and see if I can sneak in with the Soundhounds crew if one of them doesn't go.

[Mr Peabody]

Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.

[Florian]

Should be interesting, Krell and AN is about as much of a difference as AN and Apogee.
Keep us posted ;-)

[RGA]

Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.

It will be interesting how the DAC does in such a very dissimilar voiced set-up.

[Mr Peabody]

I have the Audio Note 1.1x in my system. This was a demo unit and when I received it the guy forgot to send me a BNC to RCA adaptor for the digital input. Talking about an excitement killer. By the time I hooked it up and noticed it was too late to go out and find one. I'm using a Radio Shack Gold until the one shipped arrives. I'm also using Transparent cables off other gear until I decide if I want to stick with them.

Anyway first impressions, I like it. It's the first digital source with RCA hook ups that gave the Krell's XLR balanced a run for it's money. First let me say in other comparisons I've done to the Krell I firmly decided the 280cd is a great sounding unit and even at retail of $3,250.00 a good value. With that being said, comparing it to the 1.1x makes the 280cd sound sort of glaring. The 1.1x has a very nice high end that decays even slower than the Krell. I like the 280cd better for drums and it makes things sound somewhat larger than the 1.1x. The 280cd has more impact and gives things a harder sound where the 1.1x conveys a softer presentation without sounding artificial, sluggish or valed. The 1.1x also seems to give music more of a groove or sense of rhythym. The 1.1x is not as euphoric or fleshy as I was hoping but that may be due to running it through solid state pre and power amp and different brand cables may make a difference. But I don't plan to experiment much with cables unless I can find some loaners. Both DACs seem to be equal as far as revealing information off the disc. They have different presentations but I haven't heard anything from a disc that the other unit didn't show as well. If I had to choose only one I'm actually leaning toward the Audio Note. This unit has been described to me as "organic" which didn't mean anything to me but when you hear the unit you understand. It sounds so good I think I could for go the strenghs the 280cd brings to the table for the strenths of the 1.1x. The 1.1x is far from sounding digital yet it does not have any of the stereotype tube weaknesses, the highs are not rolled off, the bass is not as tight and forceful as Krell but it's not mushy or tubby either. It would be interesting to see if the bass integrity was as good through a tube amp. The 1.1x is a very nice piece. I'd love the hear their better DAC's and even some of their gear but once you are used to 250 wpc of Krell power I know a single ended amp isn't going to cut it with me. If I ever got serious to convert my system I'd have to look at some larger powered tube models.

RGA, you should drop one of the 1.1x into your system. For some one who seems to be able to hear the difference in gear I'm surprised you don't have a better digital source. Trust me when I tell you there is a difference in the sound of cdp or DAC's. Cambridge is no slouch but they are not in the league with AN.

[RGA]

Mr. Peabody -- You know I have been highly impressed with PMC and Bryston match-ups...we live in a world where there is so much choice little time to simply just relax and enjoy something. In an ideal world I'd like the an all AN system and perhaps two or three other systems in 2-3 other rooms just to have a different flavour - my favorite ice-cream is chocolate chip mint but I don't want it ALL the time.

You wanted the tube dac for a specific purpose and hopefully it does what you want and makes you happy - seems so far you're pleased. And after being in tirade arguments here over the last two days or so the reality is that the only person you need to answer to is yourself. You don't need to try an AN set-up because you like what you have - why? The AN speakers are not efficient enough with their SET amps to be able provide the "impact" of some systems. If you love impact then there are many out there and you probably already have it. This is RGA attempting to be objective in an overall sense. I would not mind hearing a HF version of their speaker and one of their upper scale amplifiers.

Perhaps if you get a chance to hear one view it more as a medium room system at relaxing levels -- or a bedroom set-up on music that does not require "slam" but intimite kind of stuff. I think You'll be surprised at the power transfer and their ability to Rock -- but they are not going to compete I don;t think with a big PMC with 250watt monoblocks -- I personally left those truly stupifying deafening levels behind years ago. I think Constantine Soo also noted that with the AN set-up compared to his big mondo Gensis IV that the AN presented Metallica in a "philisophical" way. I say the same with Motley Crue that my AN system is less grungy sounding clearer and a little more exacting -- but for this kind of music it almost helps it to have a bit of grunge added and it sounds more fun on my Wharfedales which will hit 119db.

Do you mind me asking how much a Dac 1.1 goes for? is it the Dac 1.1X MkII that was released recently -- apparently the new ones don't even have an analog filter.

"I'm surprised you don't have a better digital source."

Tell me about it :( but there is only so much money. I think I'm doing pretty well for a guy who has not worked since 2000 and has been going to school the whole time. I live frugal to be able to get where I am. I never planned to buy any Gear but I could not pass up the deal on the speakers even though I had to take black. And the amp I had trade ins that could get it affordable enough (I could not trade for a source because the trade in would have left me with no amp). So it's sort of being in the right place at the right time.

Sorry for the length. If you ever do get an opportunity you may be surprised that their speaker amp cd system is anything but a sterotypical tube sound -- it probably won;t have the impact I suspect you love but it won;t sound warm and mushy or veiled I can gaurantee you of that. And apparently each kind of tube design brings different perspectives to the table -- some like AN's 300b some don;t and prefer the 2a3 design while more amazingly some like my OTO's EL 84 over the more expensive 300b Meishu. Some find the Meishu presnets a more organic full bodied sound but it's a little slower on the uptake so it suits small scale intimate music best but not as good on large scale stuff. All of which is part of the fun aspect associated with the tube world. I'm not enough of a gear head to get into that I don't think.

Anyway I'm quite surprised to tell you the truth that the AN would work with the Krell's so well -- though Bob Neil mentioned that the DACs travel across brands better while the amp and speakers are generally suited for each other.

I have a fellow who is willing to sell me his 1.1x MK II because he wants a 2.1 badly.

I NEED A JOB --- LOL :D

[Mr Peabody]

Go to www.triodeandco.com to see Audio Note pricing. The 1.1x MkII which I have retails at $1,500.00 U.S. I got lucky and found a demo at a good price is the reason I was able to buy that high end on a non-essential purchase. If you could get that one from your friend it would really round your system out.

I could probably do without some of the slam but I'd still need an amp to drive my Dyn's. Some day I might entertain going to separates and using a tube preamp with a SS power amp.

[Florian]

Hey Mr.P

thos tube and SS combination can sound very good. Personally i had a Jolida/Krell combination which worked and sounded very good. Some tube preamps pass DC so you have to watch out for that. My friend here runs A Jadis JP80 into a active crossover and uses the Conrad Johnson Premier 5 Monoblocks on the mid/hi and the Krell KSA250's BE on the bass. Wonderfull combination!

-Flo