sub for paradigm studio 20v.2's?

[funnyhat]

I am enjoying the sound of my paradigms, my only gripe is somewhat lack of low end (I realize due to them being bookshelf's and not floor standing). Does anyone have advice on a sub that would match the sound quality, or should I look into a similar floor stander instead? Any tips are appreciated.
Thanks

[cam]

I am enjoying the sound of my paradigms, my only gripe is somewhat lack of low end (I realize due to them being bookshelf's and not floor standing). Does anyone have advice on a sub that would match the sound quality, or should I look into a similar floor stander instead? Any tips are appreciated.
ThanksEven if you had floorstanders you would still need a sub. Similar to the 20's would be the 60's or the 100's. I doubt you will find an owner of the 60's or 100's that would honestly say that they have all the bass needed. Back when the studio v2's were current, Paradigm recommended the pw-2200 or the servo 15. Both will work but 90% would recommend a Hsu or SVS model due to sub/power per dollar. You won't beable to audition a Hsu or SVS but from what I have read, if you buy one, you will not be dissappointed.

[Woochifer]

The Studio 20 v.2 has measurable output in-room that extends close to 40 Hz. You only need a sub to take you home on the lower octave. The choice of sub doesn't really have to do with the main speaker because it deals with an areas of the frequency range that does not have discernable "voice" characteristics that require matching.

The matching that you need to do is at the crossover point. And a lot of that will depend on the quality of the crossover that you're using (whether through the line-level or speaker-level connections to the subwoofer or through the bass management on your receiver) and on your room characteristics. In a nutshell, if you have a small room, then you'll probably want to go with a sealed subwoofer like the Paradigm Servo 15, or similar offerings from Martin Logan, Velodyne, Sunfire, Rocket, Atlantic Technology, and B&W. This is because the rolloff at the low end is more gradual with a sealed sub, and the low end reinforcement caused by the room boundaries will likely create a very boomy sounding bass if you go with a ported sub. Go with a ported sub if you have a larger room.

The advantage of a subwoofer is that a decent one will generally extend lower than all but the most expensive full range floorstanding speakers, and you can position it so that it's in the best location in the room for full and even sounding bass. Main speakers are typically situated about the middle of the of the front wall, which is generally one of the worst locations in the room for bass reinforcement.

Either way, your bass will likely sound better if you treat the room with corner bass traps or hook up a parametric equalizer to the sub. This is because any room with dimensions smaller than about 25 feet will likely have at least one large boomy peak, and doing a room correction will make the bass sound much better. The equalizer will allow you to target the problem frequency and make an adjustment that allows for a fuller and more accurate sounding bass.

A lot of subs like the Infinity RABOS models, Velodyne's Digital Drive series, and Rocket's UFW subs, include a parametric filter already on board (the Velodyne Digital Drives and the Rocket UFW-12 include interfaces that you hook up to a PC sound card and set the equalizer settings on your PC, while Infinity's RABOS kit is a very simple-to-use system that includes a test disc, SPL meter, and step-by-step instructions).

[N. Abstentia]

cam is right...no floorstander will ever come close to what a dedicated sub can do.

The first sub on my list would be the Servo 15, but I understand it has recently almost doubled in price. I feel it was definitely worth the $1200 I paid for mine but when you close in on $2000 there are lots of sub options.

Definitely check out SVS subs, or maybe an older used Servo 15. Personally I felt the PW2200 was no match for the Studio 20's..the 2200 is just too slow and muddy. I had one for about a week before trading up to the Servo. If you can't swing the Servo, go SVS.

[Woochifer]

cam is right...no floorstander will ever come close to what a dedicated sub can do.

The first sub on my list would be the Servo 15, but I understand it has recently almost doubled in price. I feel it was definitely worth the $1200 I paid for mine but when you close in on $2000 there are lots of sub options.

Definitely check out SVS subs, or maybe an older used Servo 15. Personally I felt the PW2200 was no match for the Studio 20's..the 2200 is just too slow and muddy. I had one for about a week before trading up to the Servo. If you can't swing the Servo, go SVS.

The Servo 15 v.2 is basically the Signature Servo without the glossy wood finish. List price on the Servo 15 went from $1,500 to $2,200 -- a huge increase, but still less than the nearly $3,000 that the Signature Servo sells for. The Servo 15 v.2 definitely improves upon every aspect of the original Servo 15 -- much higher power output, almost twice as much air movement per stroke, and close to an additional half octave of bass extension (in-room output now goes lower than 12 Hz). But, the much higher price makes it not nearly as good a price value as the previous version was.

I think that Paradigm decided to change the Servo 15 because I heard that a lot of their Signature series customers were not buying the much pricier Signature Servo and going with the lower priced Servo 15 instead (worked well because both models were servo-controlled sealed subs). So, rather than update the Servo 15 and keep it in that lower price plateau, they simply put the Signature Servo into a cabinet without the fancy veneers and finishes, and rebadged it as the new Servo 15. Around that $1,500 price point, Paradigm introduced the Seismic series subs, so in a way the Servo 15 might have been redundant at its original price point.

With the PW-2200, that slow and muddy bass might also be a room-induced effect because of how the low end room boundary effect can boost the lower frequencies to intolerably loud levels. But, the Servo 15's sealed box design does mean that the transient response on that sub is quicker and more compatible with smaller rooms.

[cam]

cam is right...no floorstander will ever come close to what a dedicated sub can do.

The first sub on my list would be the Servo 15, but I understand it has recently almost doubled in price. I feel it was definitely worth the $1200 I paid for mine but when you close in on $2000 there are lots of sub options.

Definitely check out SVS subs, or maybe an older used Servo 15. Personally I felt the PW2200 was no match for the Studio 20's..the 2200 is just too slow and muddy. I had one for about a week before trading up to the Servo. If you can't swing the Servo, go SVS.
Hey N. Abstentia,

Your servo 15 is a great sub, I do believe it is a v1 and the pw-2200 that you trialed was a v1 since they were out at the same time.

There was a vast improvement in power in the pw-2200 between the v1 and v2. The v2 has a 400 watt rms class D which will out class the Paradigm servo 15 v1 which has a 400 watt rms class ab. Considering efficiency the pw-2200 v2 has more power then the servo 15 v1. The pw-2200 v2 may sound just as muddy as the v1 you tried within your room, so any sealed sub such as the servo 15 v1 or v2 will sound better. But there is no question, since the pw-2200 v2 went with a class d 400 watt rms amp, they pretty much had to improve on the servo 15 v1 400 watt class ab. That's why we now have a 1200 watt cass d amp in the servo 15 v2. Oh Ya Baby. One day I hope to own one.

[funnyhat]

thanks for the tips. The Hsu is definitely more in my price range than the Servo, would it work as well? If so, which model would be best?

[Woochifer]

thanks for the tips. The Hsu is definitely more in my price range than the Servo, would it work as well? If so, which model would be best?

The VTF-2 is their highly acclaimed entry level sub (it should extend down to about 25 Hz), while the VTF-3 is the model that provides more low end punch and extension. I believe that the VTF-3 is currently on sale for $700. Well regarded sub that legitimately extends down to 20 Hz. The only issue for you would be whether your room is too small to accommodate a ported sub, which is the design that the Hsu use.

The Paradigm Servo 15 is not comparable to the Hsu subs because of its sealed design. Sealed subs have different sound properties at the low end, and the room reinforces the low end with sealed subs differently than with ported subs. In general, sealed subs work better with smaller rooms, and arguably integrate better with the main speakers when listening to music sources. The ported subs are less forgiving, but can play a lot louder than sealed subs, and their low end starts to drop off at a lower frequency than a comparable sealed sub (the Servo 15 though is not comparable to anything that Hsu makes because its bass extension is much deeper), so the bass can be more linear down to the tuned port frequency. However, the dropoff at the low end occurs much faster on a ported sub.

[kexodusc]

I owned an a VTF-2 for awhile. Nice sub. I later replaced it with a PW-2200 v.2, which was a small step up.
I also owned a PW-2100. For music, the smaller sub was noticeably better in my setup. Room acoustics? Maybe, but it seemed less boomy, and just a bit tighter. I think for many it would be more sub than they'd ever need...The 2200 was a lot of fun for movies though. I like that sub too.

I didn't get a chance to compare the PW-2100 and VTF-2, didn't really want the PW-2100 but I got it for cheap (later sold it for a small profit). If I had to guess, I'd say the VTF-2 was almost as good, if not as good for a bit less money. The PW-2100 might be a bit better.. I enjoyed and would recommend either.

I disagree with N. Abstentia's assessment of the PW-2200...while not as nice as the Servo-15, I felt it shared all the strenghts and weaknesses of the it. The Servo just took them a further. You'll really appreciate the Servo at super high output levels. If you only listen at 80 dB or lower, it's probably overkill for you though. A bit better sound quality for sure, but that's to be expected for the price tag came with it. I. Guess it comes down to budget.

I will of course put in my usual plug to consider the DIY approach. There's a lot of inexpensive kit options that aren't hard to put together that will compete favorably with the subwoofers you're considering. The 12" and 15" Dayton Titanics from parts express are quite popular, and take less than 1 hour to assemble. I built my parents the 12" Titanic MKIII...I was amazed at how much better it sounded than my PW-2200. Especially for musical sources.
It wasn't long after that I sold my PW-2200 and built my own sub ( my own 15" design).
If you can build your own cabinet out of MDF, you can save a ton of money too, but at $540 with free shipping the, Titanic MKIII is a bargain. I can't think of many sealed subs with output to the low 20's for under $600.

Just another option for you.

[thepogue]

I've read all the above and I agree with most...with one exception...there IS a speaker (at least in my home) that will do just as well w/o a sub then with a sub. As some of you might know I ran the Paradigm 100's v.2 w/ a shweet Monitor Audio ASW 210 and I very much enjoyed it for quite awhile...then I moved to ML Prodigy's and never looked back and concerning bass...ML force-forward design is, in a word, AWESOME!!! tighter, deeper and overall just much better...but lets face it the 100's listed for 2400 (w/the upgraded sides) and the ASW 210 was just under a grand new....the Prodigy's list for close to 11K new...so there had better be more...and I mean much more slam, bam, and hala,hala, whoooo for that kinda dough. And there IS to be sure...so most set ups can use a good sub...even full range, floor speakers gair from some bass re-enforcement (eg sub).

with all that said I have a MA 210 sub for sale....lol drop me an email if your want pic
thepogue@yahoo.com

good luck!! Pogue

[noddin0ff]

hey funnyhat-

all the above gave excellent advice. I can only contribute anecdote. I've got the 20'sV.2 and was looking to add a sub, in the sub $600 range. Based on Kex's suggestion I went for the 12" Titanic MKIII. I got one on ebay from Parts Express's Auction of 'Scratch N Dent for just over $400. Mine was assembled and in perfect condition so I can't comment on the DIY approach, but I am very happy with the sub.
I wrote up some comments where I took some SPL measurements. Some of it is going to be room dependent.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=12465&highlight=titanic

But you can see where the 20's roll off around 40-45Hz and how the Sub extends it flat out to about 20Hz. I'm using my receivers X-over.

I can A/B the Sub+mains=small with NoSub+mains=full very easily and basically I don't notice the sub calling attention to itself except for the extension of the deep bass below 40Hz. I do think the mains are more focused now but its hard to pin down exactly depending on the music. I think quality is well matched, but would emphasize the comments made above in that the matching is not any where near as critical as matching center to mains. I'm sure if that if my wife and 2 year old would leave for a day so I could crank up the volume, I'd notice the benifits of the sub much more. As it is, I get rather seemless filling in of the very low end, and that's pretty nice.

I'll qualify my comments as anecdote by letting you know this is my first sub, and only sub I've listened to carefully. I've pretty good ears, broad music tastes, and patience. I still need to get some free time with the BFD to do more fine tuning...patience. Good Luck!

edit: Just rereading what Wooch said made me recall... the difference between 40Hz and 20Hz is only an octave-- 8 notes. When I got the sub going, I was at first kind of surprized how little I was actually missing prior to adding a sub. For many genre's of music there's not a lot happening below 40Hz. Although the bottom end of the Piano is 27.5Hz, the bottom end of a String Bass is 41Hz. The 20's still do this mostly well.

[Florian]

Most affordable box speakers and commercial planar systems simply dont drop in the bass. There are exeptions such as Apogee with their bass system, but the patent is still active and one of the reasons why only european companys copy them :p

Box speakers that can drop are the normal to bigger sized Genesis, Infinity IRS that i now personally. Try to find a sub that is fast and clean. Forget such numbers like 22Hz @ 110db or that they play down to 18 or 20Hz and cost 499$.

A good sub i can recommend are the modified Rels (their PSU sucks but you can get that fixed) the Servoc ontrolled Velodynes. Dont know about HSU as i never heard them.

-Flo

[noddin0ff]

Flo-

I've been trying to figure out what you mean by 'drop in the bass' but can't. Could you explain?

thanks!

[Florian]

Sure ;)

When i say "drop in bass" i mean that they play low without a strain. Lets say we have the Blade Runner Soundtrack and the music plays along and suddenly we get a creapy effect and the bass just drops straight down to around 25Hz or lower most speakers simply roll off at 35Hz already and are down 8 or more db at 30Hz.

This means you wont evel feel it and thats why most buy a subwoofer. Its simply cheaper, but if you can afford or find a true fullrange speaker than when that sound effect hits the bass just gets lower, lower and shakes your room like it does for me :D

So when you get a speaker that "just drops in bass" it means that it is a true fullrange and not some spec quoted like i can play to 20Hz @ 60db LOL

Most of the claims made by manufactures are crap, your general middle class high fi speaker simply dont drop, they play to 40Hz and start rolling off. This is no real bass at all, so when you get a chance buy a true fullrange system. There is a whole other world below 40Hz on most CD's ;-)

[noddin0ff]

Gotcha, Thanks!

So your suggestion to funnyhat would essentially be that if he really wants extension to below ~35Hz he's not likely to find it in most floor standers and he would likely be better off adding a sub to his 20's?

[Florian]

Yes or to look for a floorstander that has the power. But these are rare and expensive. Best bet would be a Paradigm Subwoofer or if he has the money a modified Rel or Velodyne.

-Flo