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areej
09-09-2005, 11:14 AM
I am considering purchase of Adcom GFA 5500 Power Amp and Proceed AVP Preamp. Can anyone suggest some options as to which speakers would go well with these? Here are my requirements/Questions:

* Preferably under $1,200.
* It buying used speakers a good idea?
* I am interested in traditional 2 channel, stereo setup only.
* Need a good, clean response.
* Prefer 3 way speakers.
* I listen to mostly Western classical. However, I need accurate reproduction of Pink Floyd recordings also.
* My listening room size is 21ft x 15ft. The ceiling is 14ft high. It is a family room and does not have a door - it is connected to the kitchen.

I currently have Polk Audio RT7s (owned them for past 6 years). For the price I paid, I like them. However, I find they lack mid-range clarity and the bass is a bit boomy. The new speakers I buy should not be deficient in these areas.

Any help is appreciated.

topspeed
09-09-2005, 11:28 AM
Sure.

Read this thread (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10906) and you'll have more than enough to get you started.

Hope this helps.

Florian
09-09-2005, 11:31 AM
I recommend a used Magnepan MG 1.6 This is a great speaker, i have owned one before and loved it. I would have recommended Apogee first, but there is nothing below 1200$ unfortunatly.

Here is a great pair on A-Gone

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1129498223

Cheers

Flo

pelly3s
09-10-2005, 04:58 AM
I would go with Tannoy if you want something new, if you dont mind going used i would suggest hunting for a pair of JBL 4430's or some of the older 43xx series boxes. or maybe a pair of JBL L-220's or L-300's

I know a lot of people are going to say that JBL is junk but oh well

Buzz Roll
09-10-2005, 06:56 AM
Magnepan 1.6
Vandersteen 2Ce
Ohm MicroWalsh or Walsh 100

In your price range those three are VERY hard to beat - I'm running Ohms right now and they sound excellent with classical music - amazing mid-range.

Mr Peabody
09-10-2005, 06:32 PM
I will weigh in and suggest giving Dynaudio a listen. In one of my rooms I have an Adcom 5400 driving a pair of Audience 60's and it sounds great. The new version, 62's, I think run around $1,400.00. Until you get into the Dyn's ultra high end their speakers are mostly 2-way but in my opinion they will sound better than a 3-way in the same price. They also have a new series out and growing called the Focus and their bookshelf is slightly cheaper the the 52se's and is reported to sound better in most every way except the 52se's will play lower.

If you could find a pair you can afford used I also recommend Martin Logan's. They make a large sound stage which is nice on Classical. Not to mention they are very revealing and will fill your large area with sound.

Geoffcin
09-11-2005, 05:21 AM
I am considering purchase of Adcom GFA 5500 Power Amp and Proceed AVP Preamp. Can anyone suggest some options as to which speakers would go well with these? Here are my requirements/Questions:

* Preferably under $1,200.
* It buying used speakers a good idea?
* I am interested in traditional 2 channel, stereo setup only.
* Need a good, clean response.
* Prefer 3 way speakers.
* I listen to mostly Western classical. However, I need accurate reproduction of Pink Floyd recordings also.
* My listening room size is 21ft x 15ft. The ceiling is 14ft high. It is a family room and does not have a door - it is connected to the kitchen.

I currently have Polk Audio RT7s (owned them for past 6 years). For the price I paid, I like them. However, I find they lack mid-range clarity and the bass is a bit boomy. The new speakers I buy should not be deficient in these areas.

Any help is appreciated.

But, overall the best bang for you buck will be buying used. I think buying used speakers is a good idea ONLY for high end speakers. Most people who buy speakers like Magnepan 1.6qr's are not into abusing them, and they are often sold in as-good-as-new condition. Audiogon.com would be my prefered venue to look. I would still look at, but be more cautious about buying from Ebay.

Your room is similar in size to my room. Is there a ceiling catherdral? The fact that your getting boomy bass from your Polks might not be because of the speaker, but from room interaction. I'd hate for you to spend a lot of money on speakers only to find out that they also boom. The problem is that if your room has bass interaction issues, almost ALL speakers will have problems like your Polks. If you have a dB meter and a CD with test tones, it's pretty easy to scope out your room to see how much the responce varies. You may be shocked to see how deep/high the nodes are, and that your listening area might be directly in one of them! Before buying anything I would recommend doing this first.

.

areej
09-11-2005, 07:37 AM
Thank you all for your great suggestions.

Florian: Thanks for the link. The seller is actually quite close to my place. I will give them a try.

Mr Peabody: I will definitely try out Dynaudio. I heard them a long time back and quite liked them.

Geoffcin: The Polks I have had the same boomy bass when I was in an apartment. Ever since I have moved into a bigger house they just struggle to fill the room with proper sound levels (but the boomy bass remains).

One more question: What do you guys think of Axiom Speakers?

Geoffcin
09-11-2005, 10:05 AM
One more question: What do you guys think of Axiom Speakers?

Funny you should ask, as I've just received a set of Axioms for review. I don't want to give away the review just yet, as it's not complete, but the short answer would be that Axiom would warrent a serious look & listen on your part. The Axiom M80 would also require you to have a decent receiver or power amp to drive them though, as they are 4 ohm speakers.

jaree
09-12-2005, 06:59 AM
Funny you should ask, as I've just received a set of Axioms for review. I don't want to give away the review just yet, as it's not complete, but the short answer would be that Axiom would warrent a serious look & listen on your part.

I will be eagerly awaiting for your review!


The Axiom M80 would also require you to have a decent receiver or power amp to drive them though, as they are 4 ohm speakers.

ADCOM GFA 5500 should be ok for these, right?

kexodusc
09-12-2005, 07:29 AM
Funny you should ask, as I've just received a set of Axioms for review. I don't want to give away the review just yet, as it's not complete, but the short answer would be that Axiom would warrent a serious look & listen on your part. The Axiom M80 would also require you to have a decent receiver or power amp to drive them though, as they are 4 ohm speakers.

What the f----
How the hay did you just "receive a set of Axioms for review"?
I have to fight with friends and fellow enthusiasts just to convince them to find time to do comparisons and reviews, waste a lot of gas lugging components across town (which ain't cheap)...and you just "receive a set of Axioms for review"? Not fair!
...I'm calling foul here - I don't know what kind of scam you're pulling, but I want in! :D

kexodusc
09-12-2005, 07:30 AM
I will be eagerly awaiting for your review!



ADCOM GFA 5500 should be ok for these, right?


I too am eagerly waiting for Geoffcin's review...I really dig my little Axioms, despite horrible first impressions!

Your Adcom will be fine.

Geoffcin
09-12-2005, 08:57 AM
What the f----
How the hay did you just "receive a set of Axioms for review"?
I have to fight with friends and fellow enthusiasts just to convince them to find time to do comparisons and reviews, waste a lot of gas lugging components across town (which ain't cheap)...and you just "receive a set of Axioms for review"? Not fair!
...I'm calling foul here - I don't know what kind of scam you're pulling, but I want in! :D

But every now and then I get lucky. Actually I'm NOT doing a review of the M80's per say, but a review of an Axiom Home Theater system with the M80's as the mains. I have just put them into the system, but I have been running the Axiom Epicenter 500 sub for a week already.

Florian
09-12-2005, 09:05 AM
Any comparison to the Maggies?

-Flo

GMichael
09-12-2005, 10:02 AM
Any comparison to the Maggies?

-Flo

Good question. Also, how to they compair to Totems?

Geoffcin
09-12-2005, 02:51 PM
I too am eagerly waiting for Geoffcin's review...I really dig my little Axioms, despite horrible first impressions!

Your Adcom will be fine.

I'm going to try to do my best to be accurate and honest with the Audioreview.com readers about these speakers. Although your going to have to wait a bit for the reviews, I'd like to give an early award to the customer service that Axiom provides. When you buy a speaker from an Internet company your also buying into the support that they offer. Axiom has earned my highest respect for the professionalism, and level of personal service they've displayed. You'd think I was buying a set of $30,000 Wilson's the way I've been treated!

Geoffcin
09-12-2005, 02:53 PM
Any comparison to the Maggies?

-Flo

How could it be any other way?

Florian
09-12-2005, 02:59 PM
How could it be any other way?
Well its lucky that i know the 3.6's by heart :p
By the way the Wilson Audio support sucks, but i know what you mean!

Its good to hear that their support is so good.

-Flo

Geoffcin
09-12-2005, 03:02 PM
Good question. Also, how to they compair to Totems?

Vince Bruzzese dances to his own tune when it comes to speaker design. I happen to really like the tune he's playing too!

Totems are geared more toward the high-end stereo crowd (although they do have HT products), while Axiom is geared toward HT, although many of their products would work equally well in a stereo application. I do both HT & Stereo, and both will be covered in the reviews.

Geoffcin
09-12-2005, 03:03 PM
I will be eagerly awaiting for your review!



ADCOM GFA 5500 should be ok for these, right?

An Adcom amp would work just fine.

Woochifer
09-12-2005, 05:11 PM
The speaker suggestions would really depend on how much bass you're looking for. If you're good with a standmount monitor, then any number of options are open such as Paradigm's Studio series, the Energy Veritas, Monitor Audio, Vienna Acostics, Sonus Faber, Dynaudio, Magnepan, Vandersteen, KEF, B&W, Aerial Acoustics, Totem, etc. If you want the extra bass extension, then you need to either go with a lower priced monitor and add a subwoofer, or go with a floorstander, which in this price range typically gives you plenty of audible compromises with the cabinet resonance and imaging.

Although I agree that the Magnepan 1.6 is a model that you should definitely try out, I heard that model with an Adcom GFA-5500 and that speaker audibly strained the amp once you got above normal listening levels. At normal listening levels, the Magneplanars sound very nice with acoustic music especially, but once you try going above a certain level, then the sound begins to go south in a hurry. I tried that same amp with a Vandersteen 2ce, and it was noticeably more efficient and allowed the system to maintain consistent tonal characteristics throughout a larger volume range. Adcom amps I've heard in the past have always done pretty well with even inefficient 4 ohm box speakers, which is why the performance with the Magneplanars surprised me.

Also agreed with Geoffcin about the room effect with your current speakers. Boomy bass can occur with a poorly braced floorstanding speaker or a floorstander that sits flat against resonant surface, but the biggest contributory factor is with the room acoustics. You should try a different placement with the speakers and see if that improves your bass response.

You can also improve the bass by using an equalized subwoofer that's tuned to the problem frequencies that occur from your listening position/speaker placement. Cleaning up the boominess in the bass and/or crossing over a subwoofer into your two-channel setup will actually improve your midrange coherency considerably. Trying a different speaker placement will change the locations of the standing waves that form at your listening position, and that might greatly improve the overall sound of your speakers.

Mr Peabody
09-12-2005, 06:13 PM
The Adcom gfa-5500 will give a good bass response. In fact, I bought the 5400 for one of my systems because it had the mid bass hump. The 5500 had good bass but the response was flatter. The Maggies must be a bear to drive, the 5500 has like 8 output devices per channel.

The Proceed and Adcom you were looking at is a great deal, I'd suggest getting it but buy speakers that match those components. For instance, if we know Maggies are a problem, you either scratch them off the list or move to a more competent amp which in turn will cost more money.

Florian
09-12-2005, 06:18 PM
Maggies are so darn easy to drive its not even funny. Give the 45Watt per Channel Pathos a try that thing swings the 1.6 like there is no tomorrow. The the Sphinx PJ12 Monos, same thing. Its a myth same as with Apogees.

Check out the 1.6, if a AMP cant handle a simple 4ohm load and its a bigger SS AMP then your wasting your time on it. Bryston sounds too warm and muddy on Maggies anyways. Give Classe, Sphinx, Pathos, old Krells and early ML's a go.

-Flo

3db
09-13-2005, 05:10 AM
Maggies are so darn easy to drive its not even funny. Give the 45Watt per Channel Pathos a try that thing swings the 1.6 like there is no tomorrow. The the Sphinx PJ12 Monos, same thing. Its a myth same as with Apogees.

Check out the 1.6, if a AMP cant handle a simple 4ohm load and its a bigger SS AMP then your wasting your time on it. Bryston sounds too warm and muddy on Maggies anyways. Give Classe, Sphinx, Pathos, old Krells and early ML's a go.

-Flo

These are a very high qualtiy speaker but their downside is that they are VERY power hungry. It requires a robust amp to make em sing but if you have one, few speakers can touch their performance

Florian
09-13-2005, 05:15 AM
Don't worry i owned 1.6's, 2x 3.6's and .5's and considered a MG20.1. Maggies are not really power hungry. You can use a 45 wpc hybrid on the 1.6's and drive them to exessive levels. There is no point in dropping 400 or more watts per panel. I tested this here with a 450wpc Krell monster. Buy a good solid amp, one that has no problems driving 2 ohms. I dont know a single good amp that cant drive a 4ohm load easily exept some of thise single tubes.

-Flo

Woochifer
09-13-2005, 10:35 AM
Maggies are so darn easy to drive its not even funny. Give the 45Watt per Channel Pathos a try that thing swings the 1.6 like there is no tomorrow. The the Sphinx PJ12 Monos, same thing. Its a myth same as with Apogees.

Check out the 1.6, if a AMP cant handle a simple 4ohm load and its a bigger SS AMP then your wasting your time on it. Bryston sounds too warm and muddy on Maggies anyways. Give Classe, Sphinx, Pathos, old Krells and early ML's a go.

-Flo

If the Maggies are so easy to drive that "its not even funny," then I would expect that the Adcom GFA-5500 would have had no issue whatsoever driving those 1.6s. But, in my listening, once I started going above my normal listening level, the soundstage and the imaging characteristics changed considerably. And below levels that I would consider intolerably loud, I detected audible levels of distortion. Maybe it's an issue with the amp, but all I know is that the Vandersteen 2ce (a more efficient 8-ohm speaker) that I hooked up to that same amplifier rig maintained much more consistency all the way throughout the volume range.

That same dealer had a Bryston/Maggie 3.6 setup, and it did not present the same issues that I heard with that Adcom/1.6 combo. It's fine to suggest that Classe, Sprinx, Pathos, or Krell amps would work fine with the 1.6, and no one's disputing that those amps that you mention probably do work well with the 1.6. But, the original poster already owns an Adcom amp, is NOT looking to buy a new amp, and my listenings are based on the same amp that he currently owns.

Feanor
09-13-2005, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Woochifer]...
Although I agree that the Magnepan 1.6 is a model that you should definitely try out, I heard that model with an Adcom GFA-5500 and that speaker audibly strained the amp once you got above normal listening levels. At normal listening levels, the Magneplanars sound very nice with acoustic music especially, but once you try going above a certain level, then the sound begins to go south in a hurry. I tried that same amp with a Vandersteen 2ce, and it was noticeably more efficient and allowed the system to maintain consistent tonal characteristics throughout a larger volume range. Adcom amps I've heard in the past have always done pretty well with even inefficient 4 ohm box speakers, which is why the performance with the Magneplanars surprised me.
..QUOTE]

On the one hand, Maggies require plenty of current into 4 ohms. Will the Adcom do this? If so, not problem. If Florian is saying any old 45 watt/ch amp will drive Magneplanars then I don't agree; the amps he specifically mentions might work but I'm sceptical.

On the other hand, Maggies -- most definitely smaller ones, MMGs and MG 12, but also in a degree the MG 1.6's -- have a loudness limit. They can sound compressed and loose transparency once you go beyond a certain level, regardless of amplifier power. The limitation is their ability to "move air": thought their radiating surface is large, the extension is much smaller than dynamic woofers. The bigger Maggies obviously have a less of a problem.

Florian
09-13-2005, 02:17 PM
The Maggie just shows you that the Adcom aint good enough. If you like the sound of the Maggies, then buy it and get a different amp later.

The Adcom is not one of those high quality amps i speak of. The reason for this are obvious

1. The AMP does NOT double its power from 8 into 4 It goes from 250 to 350
2. 4ohm load limit (pretty weak for a SS amp)
3. The 1.6 will drop below 4ohms ocasionally, and the amp simply has no balls when it drops and compresses.

If the Adcom cant even double its power from 8 into then its a compromise. Either the PSU is too weak of the end transisotors are too cheap, either one or both.

Also Maggies wont play too loud without a strain. All Maggies, become compressed and thin when they reach their limit. Box speakers generally distort obviously but not planar speakers, they get compressed and sssssisling.

45wpc are more than enough you just need a good amp that has no problems with impedance movment. One of the things why people say Apogees are hard. HAHAH, they just need a good amp. :p

-Flo

PS: I have pics of my old Pathos (still have it) running the 3.6

kexodusc
09-13-2005, 02:31 PM
The Adcom is not one of those high quality amps i speak of. The reason for this are obvious

1. The AMP does NOT double its power from 8 into 4 It goes from 250 to 350
2. The AMP is a light weight

If the Adcom cant even double its power from 8 into then its a compromise. Either the PSU is too weak of the end transisotors are too cheap, either one or both.



You are either joking or you offering very poor advice.
Doubling or not doubling it's power as resistance is halved is absolutely not an indication of the quality of an amplifier. ESPECIALLY when it comes to home audio.
How completely ridiculous :rolleyes:

Florian
09-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Thats what seperates the man from the boys. That seperates a HIFI hobbyist and a Audiophile. We know these things!

Check out all the good gear, they all have stable enough PSU's and capasitance to be able to double their rated power into half the load. Good amps do that, and have no problem with impedance swings. When the Maggies go from (3ohm to 5ohm) the amp simply looses all the balls at anything below 4ohm and strains.

If you belive it or not is none of my interest. Read up on the impedance curves on electrostatics and panels. You dont need the power but a amp that can handle the impedance swings and doubles it power as a sign of no weakness.

-Flo

Geoffcin
09-13-2005, 02:41 PM
The Adcom is not one of those high quality amps i speake of. The reason for this are obvious

1. The AMP does NOT double its power from 8 into 4 It goes from 250 to 350
2. The AMP is a light weight

If the Adcom cant even double its power from 8 into then its a compromise. Either the PSU is too weak of the end transisotors are too cheap, either one or both.

Also Maggies wont play too loud without a strain. All Maggies, Apogees become compressed and thing when they reach their limit. Box speakers generally distort obviously but not planar speakers, they get compressed and sssssisling.

45wpc are more than enough you just need a good amp that has no problems with impedance movment. One of the things why people say Apogees are hard. HAHAH, they just need a good amp.

-Flo

PS: I have pics of my old Pathos (still have it) running the 3.6

Just because an amp doesn't double it's maximum power into half the resistance doesn't mean it's not a good amp. Almost NO tube amp does this, are you saying that all tube amps suck? I've heard maggies driven by a large (800wpc) Classe amp playing at a good 105 dB without any noticeable strain. That's pretty darn loud, are you saying you listen to music at higher dB? If you are then your asking for hearing damage. Electro-dynamic drivers compress just like planar drivers at high levels, unless you hit the stops of the driver travel the effects are very similar.

Also;

Unless you have DIRECT experience with the amp in question it would be advisable for you NOT to make assumptions on what, or how the amp would act. Assumptions, and hearsay are not going to help anyone make a decision on what to purchase.

Florian
09-13-2005, 02:46 PM
Just because an amp doesn't double it's maximum power into half the resistance doesn't mean it's not a good amp. Almost NO tube amp does this, are you saying that all tube amps suck? I've heard maggies driven by a large (800wpc) Classe amp playing at a good 105 dB without any noticeable strain. That's pretty darn loud, are you saying you listen to music at higher dB? If you are then your asking for hearing damage. Electro-dynamic drivers compress just like planar drivers at high levels, unless you hit the stops of the driver travel the effects are very similar.

Also;

Unless you have DIRECT experience with the amp in question it would be advisable for you NOT to make assumptions on what, or how the amp would act. Assumptions, and hearsay are not going to help anyone make a decision on what to purchase. I didnt say that the amp sucks and doesnt sound good because it cant double its power into half the load. Its simply the wrong speaker choice. :p

If the amp would not double its power into 2ohms their would be no problem cause the 3ohm (lowest maggie resistance) is well within boundrys.

-Flo

PS: Good tube amps have the same power into any load that they can drive ;)

Florian
09-13-2005, 02:49 PM
Here you go.... all from Classe.... They are GOOD amps, they double their power.


<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="90%"> <tbody><tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"><td colspan="2">power/channel (continuous)
(120VAC line, 1kHz signal regulated to 1% THD + noise into resistive load, all channels driven)</td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">load (resistive)</td> <td width="60%"> </td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">8Ω</td> <td width="60%">100W</td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">4Ω</td> <td width="60%">200W
</td></tr></tbody> </table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="90%"> <tbody><tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"><td colspan="2">power/channel (continuous)
(120VAC line, 1kHz signal regulated to 1% THD + noise into resistive load, all channels driven)</td> </tr> <tr class="sm-bld" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">load (resistive)</td> <td width="60%"> </td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">8Ω</td> <td width="60%">200W</td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">4Ω</td> <td width="60%">400W</td></tr></tbody> </table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="90%"> <tbody><tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"><td colspan="2">power/channel (continuous)
(120VAC line, 1kHz signal regulated to 1% THD + noise into resistive load, all channels driven)</td> </tr> <tr class="sm-bld" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">load (resistive)</td> <td width="60%"> </td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">8Ω</td> <td width="60%">400W</td> </tr> <tr class="small" align="left" valign="top"> <td width="40%">4Ω</td> <td width="60%">800W</td></tr></tbody> </table>

kexodusc
09-13-2005, 03:38 PM
Thats what seperates the man from the boys. That seperates a HIFI hobbyist and a Audiophile. We know these things!
-Flo
More like, that's what separates a fool from his money...
We mere common hobbyists know a few things about fundamental physics too...might help you to learn some of that, otherwise the term audiophile will become synonymous with something unflattering.

You even quoted some Classe specs...whoop-dee-freakin'-crap.

The ability of an amplifier to act as a perfect voltage source (which doesn't happen in those Classe amps btw)) isn't a pre-requisite for sound quality. Hell, if the most power you ever used from those amps was 3 to 12 watts in a 4 ohm load, what good to you is the ability to double power output at 100 watts into a 2 ohm load? It might make you feel warm and fuzzy and give you something to share with your internet buddies, but that's it. Some people judge gear by its specs alone.

I myself prefer real sound performance.

Florian
09-13-2005, 03:40 PM
In every thread, this is quite amusing. Who cares, have fun!
I never said that it sounds good or bad, but your just ride the same horse as always.
Is it because you were born poor and are still not rich, or is it because you have a Adcom? It matches your Paradigm's but not the Maggie. Learn, dont hate people that can afford better!

-Flo

PS: To the thread starter: If you want real advice, advice with experience and the knowledge to backup the claims write me a PM or phone me.

Woochifer
09-13-2005, 04:58 PM
In every thread, this is quite amusing. Who cares, have fun!
I never said that it sounds good or bad, but your just ride the same horse as always.
Is it because you were born poor and are still not rich, or is it because you have a Adcom? It matches your Paradigm's but not the Maggie. Learn, dont hate people that can afford better!

Frankly, elitist holier-than-thou attitudes like yours are what take the "fun" out of the audio hobby, and if anyone's riding a high horse (or needs a high chair) and has learning to do, it's you. I don't hate people who can afford better, only the presumption that people who choose to make other budgetary priorities in their lives or have other listening preferences do so because they're in some state of envy or denial.

Plenty of us on this board have the money to buy absurdly expensive audio gear, but CHOOSE not to do so. If you'd rather accumulate high end audio gear with bragging rights price tags than save up for a house or take vacations or buy a new car or make investments or put money away for retirement, knock yourself out. If you get your head out of the clouds and actually get a clue about what people's priorities and preferences are, you might stop making these absurd presumptions about our incomes dictating what we hear/buy.


PS: To the thread starter: If you want real advice, advice with experience and the knowledge to backup the claims write me a PM or phone me.

"real advice"? All that you have contributed on this thread is more shilling for your precious panel speakers, and more dismissive cheap shots at any opinions that don't mesh with your presumptuous world view. If you now want to take your "experience" and "knowledge" to the PM level, then do everyone a favor and keep it there. This is a public forum, and if you don't want to have your posts subjected to dissenting opinions, then spare us the "if you want real advice" pronouncements. After all, you've already quit on this board once because not enough of us own equipment that you would deem "high end."

3db
09-13-2005, 05:12 PM
In every thread, this is quite amusing. Who cares, have fun!
I never said that it sounds good or bad, but your just ride the same horse as always.
Is it because you were born poor and are still not rich, or is it because you have a Adcom? It matches your Paradigm's but not the Maggie. Learn, dont hate people that can afford better!

-Flo

PS: To the thread starter: If you want real advice, advice with experience and the knowledge to backup the claims write me a PM or phone me.


Maybe its time you look for anotehr job

PAT.P
09-13-2005, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=Florian]In every thread, this is quite amusing. Who cares, have fun!
I never said that it sounds good or bad, but your just ride the same horse as always.
Is it because you were born poor and are still not rich, or is it because you have a Adcom? It matches your Paradigm's but not the Maggie. Learn, dont hate people that can afford better!

-Flo

Sir Flo either your on cloud 9 or your PMS-ing.Take a breather ,take a pill .When you'll have a family and your own house come back and read your comments.I've raised 3 children ,started another and added another child.I own two house ,have investment.How many times around I've could of own your system (many).I came from a family of 10 kids and I was grateful for what my parents gave us and it was'nt money but something more important LOVE.I think the only thing you love is yourself and your speakers .By the way this thread was about speakers not about bragging and $$$$$.

RGA
09-14-2005, 10:51 AM
Bryston sounds warm and muddy on Magnepan

You know over the last 15 years I have never ever not even close to having someone EVER describe Brystons especially more recent Bryston as being the least bit warm. People either rave about how neutral they or or how screamingly bright they are.

The Maggie 1.6 is a nice speaker but it not the last word in music reproduction and it has compromises that I certainly could not live with. But that's because unlike the original poster I listen to a lot of things other than classical and Pink Floyd.

1) Maggie offers a stable 4 ohm load -- even a tube amp or the 25 watt Sugden SHOULD drive them fine -- the speaker compresses a lot anyway when pushed hard so buying a 300 watter is a waste of time.

2) There are two areas of significant weakness -- one is in visceral impact with bass and rock and roll drums -- they are not presented well in the least bit.

3) there is an edgy upper midrange lower treble sound that will be acentuated in many recordings -- this drive several listeners to exclaim the 1.6 is really open and holographic but ultimately highly fatiguing -- something morricab and other panel lovers have noted and which I agree. The strengths though are that ohh so massive soundstatge and openess that I've heard few boxes present for the same money. It's a tradeoff that the poster has to be aware of which the press doesn't mention.

4) They're a huge pain in the ass to position to get them to sound right.

5) Adcom is perfectly fine. Classe is very expensive in Europe and has a bigger fan base there no doubt because of the HUGE price tags -- they really are nothing special and overly expensive for the sound on tap. Maybe they work better with Maggie but then if that is coming from someone who calls Byston WARM then I'd be highly hesitant to believe anything from that person!

theaudiohobby
09-14-2005, 01:39 PM
Classe is not big brand in Europe and has never been, the situation has improved recently but its profile is still far lower than that of the likes of Krell and Bryston.

kexodusc
09-14-2005, 02:20 PM
Classe is not big brand in Europe and has never been, the situation has improved recently but its profile is still far lower than that of the likes of Krell and Bryston.

Just a guess on my part, but I think RGA's reference to Classe wasn't that it's a big brand in Europe, just bigger there than it is in North America. That's kind of how I read it.

I can't say for sure, but I wouldnt' be surprised if it was true, I don't think Classe would make many top 10 names for amps. Maybe it's low profile the whole world over?
FWIW, Krell and Bryston would still be big names here too.

topspeed
09-14-2005, 02:29 PM
I've raised 3 children ,started another... But did you finish? Details where relevant :p!

Flo,
You're clueless. How 'bout keeping that promise to yourself about leaving, hmm? If you're concerned it will hurt our feelings, don't you worry that big 'ol heart of yours. We'll somehow find the courage to make it through (sniff, sniff). :(

RGA
09-14-2005, 04:37 PM
Classe is not big brand in Europe and has never been, the situation has improved recently but its profile is still far lower than that of the likes of Krell and Bryston.

Well classe is tiny compared to those other two. I have European friends who claim that Classe has more :"aura" about them and are "perceived" as being better over there than they are here. Bryston right or wrong fair or not are deemed more as a beast of an amp maker and more braun than subtle. Classe is often said to be a step up over Bryston as a general thumb and that to me is bothersome. Oddly Classe people who've had them or still do always tell me how tube like they sound. I get that because some remind me a little of my old Sugden A48b...the difference though is that the Classe costs a helluva lot more.

Again the Classe may very well prefer Magnepan because Bryston needs to be with speakers that need a Bryston if that makes sense -- if one has a speaker that needs tight control of slighlt tubby bass speakers then you can get seriously tight crisp quite excellent sound. but with a speaker that already sounds tight and crisp and now you get a rather lean thin kinda sound. Bryston worked very well with my 95db 8+ ohm Horn Wharfedales precisely because the bass in the Wharfedales can be a little unfocussed.

I don;t want to knock Classe because they did well on some speakers from a company called "Hales" which was far better than the Krell set-up at a lot more money they also were auditioning (problem is that I didn't care much for the Hales so the point was moot). But every other time i've tried Classe with the B&W N801 and N802 and Martin Logan I've felt that the Classe was veiling the proceedings a littl too much almost trying to compensate where the bryston I would prefer.

Interestingly I like the Bryston PMC match a great deal and this is a complete polar opposite of what I am building but I dig the combo and I get why it's such a popular match - and you can go active on them too with the powerpacks. I also enjoyed Bryston mated with Martin Logans...perhaps again the control over the wonkilly matched bass driver panel integration. It helps that one of my dealers is the largest Bryston dealer on the planet that they are very careful with what they're connecting. They never have them matched to Focal JM Labs interestingly so perhaps not a great combo??

RGA
09-14-2005, 04:56 PM
Just a guess on my part, but I think RGA's reference to Classe wasn't that it's a big brand in Europe, just bigger there than it is in North America. That's kind of how I read it.

I can't say for sure, but I wouldnt' be surprised if it was true, I don't think Classe would make many top 10 names for amps. Maybe it's low profile the whole world over?
FWIW, Krell and Bryston would still be big names here too.

Yes I meant that sometimes being an IMPORT gives it an added allure. YBA here for example had a very long big high end run that is waning a fair bit. It is French and was one of the premiere high end SS companies. It "seems" that they have become less present due to a few weak efforts like their CD re-play whioch was always seemingly getting dumped on and eventually the prices here probably caught up with them.

There is an audio-jewellry aspect to much of this stuff and one has to try and wade through whether the name the price the reputation, even the legend as UHF magazine once said, actually translate. I think Bryston offers BIG sound big power great build and if well matched quite great results but the big thing with them is Segfvice, Service, Service in an industry and consumer world today that severely lacks...and all for a relatively reasonable price. they may not be my cup of tea in every system but they offer a lot and when and if I look at SS for the second system i always want to listen to bryston offerrings.

Classe for me has the prestige the mystique and the looks and the pricey price tags but I always can;t help feeling that "so what" or "is that all" creep into my head when listening to them. Though after a day of shootouts with several amps from the T-amp a $30.00 Digital amp modified with a couple hundred bucks and several other power amps through AN K and Gershmans the msot dissapointing amp was from Musical Fidelity -- another company that may have the reverse over the pond Mystique.

I have not yet liked a single MF amp though they look nice (sxy Looks and catchy name - I am not convinced. Having heard a company called Odyssey in the shootout They sounded leagues better than what the MF was producing and no offense but really who the hell is Odyssey -- some nobody internet company can pound the snot out of a Celeste and an MF?? And the Oddyesy looked nice too and are not that expensive -- I think they even give out big long warranties. For SS power amplification I would be hard pressed to be convinced to spend more money.

The only bad thing was when they were turned on the lights in the house dimmed :D Cool man. Still the K would have been better served with SE because they can be too tight sounding while the Gershmans soaked up the ballsy power with aplomb.

Mr Peabody
09-14-2005, 05:04 PM
It don't work like that, when you match a good amp like Bryston or Krell with a good speaker capable of excellent bass response like Dynaudio you just get a knock out punch. These amps will help sloppy speakers sound better but with a capable speaker that's the real deal. The transient response is awesome.

I thought older Classe sounded decent but I heard an all Classe system driving some B&W D series this weekend and I hated it. I have not heard anything so dead or dry sounding in my life. That surprised me from equipment of Classe league. I don't know if I can convey the sound, it was like the note sounded and just died. It made recordings sound like they were maybe recorded in a room with every surface covered with thick carpet. It really changed my opinion of Classe.

PAT.P
09-14-2005, 06:26 PM
topspeed As a parent its never finish.My oldest is 26,the twins are 25 and my son is 8. I have 5 grandkids ,landlord to one of my daughter.Im a taxi driver to their needs.You try your best to show them the way .Parenting is not short time but a life long commitment .

T BOMB25
09-14-2005, 07:33 PM
The Odysseys are great amps their is really nothing to challenge them in their price range,they are built off of the German high end brand Symphony if they carried that badge they would be considerably more expensive.I own their Kharago amp and Estiban preamp,while I dont share your thoughts on the Musical Fidelity gear which I own as well,my Odyssey set-up soundly trounces it in everything.They also build very good speakers which im gonna recomend,Odyssey Epiphonys $595 a pair which I own now and they are trully speacial speakers their imaging and soundstaging are the best I ve ever heard regardless of price,and their bass goes down to 40 htz. really solid and they have a extremely acurate upper to mid bass kind of reminds of the Epos M12.2 in that way.Very smooth and extened topend and nice midrange they are so good at sounstaging and imaging that people forget how good they are everywhere else,and outstanding buy.You can get the Epiphonys,Khartigo,Estaban,and Groneberge interconects and speakerwire as a package from Odyssey called "The $1500 system" thats what I did and its nearly impossible to beat it dusted off my friends $13000 system quite easily,im not gonna say what it is because their are a couple people on here thats big fans of the speakers.

RGA
09-14-2005, 08:46 PM
It don't work like that, when you match a good amp like Bryston or Krell with a good speaker capable of excellent bass response like Dynaudio you just get a knock out punch. These amps will help sloppy speakers sound better but with a capable speaker that's the real deal. The transient response is awesome.

I thought older Classe sounded decent but I heard an all Classe system driving some B&W D series this weekend and I hated it. I have not heard anything so dead or dry sounding in my life. That surprised me from equipment of Classe league. I don't know if I can convey the sound, it was like the note sounded and just died. It made recordings sound like they were maybe recorded in a room with every surface covered with thick carpet. It really changed my opinion of Classe.

Well I have tried bryston for years and it's a mixed bag response. You should read the UHF review of the Bryton 3B who is more up front that some rags. They got a letter from Bryston saying that the sound that UHF received is the speaker's fault. Only that's a BS response because the big Reference 3a La Suprema creates huge bass wiothout any need for a Bryston -- the fact that the result was LESS bass is telling.

I was unimpressed with Classe and B&W as well -- and I too noted a dead dull even muddy sound. Over the years I would take a Bryston because I've heard it work better with more speakers. Amp and speaker should be purchased together not hodgpodged guess buying. For instance I've heard bryston separates on the 700 series and hated the results. But then that was not bryston's fault because everything on the 700 series so far has sounded dreadful for me.

topspeed
09-14-2005, 09:05 PM
Having heard a company called Odyssey in the shootout They sounded leagues better than what the MF was producing and no offense but really who the hell is Odyssey -- some nobody internet company can pound the snot out of a Celeste and an MF?? And the Oddyesy looked nice too and are not that expensive -- I think they even give out big long warranties. For SS power amplification I would be hard pressed to be convinced to spend more money.This shows how differently we all hear. I did a blind, level matched shootout with the Odyssey and some other amps. For around $1K, I'll agree with you that it is certainly one worth auditioning. It's a beast of a unit that requires a back-brace to move and seems to have limitless reserves. However, in the end we felt the amp was bettered by a competitor. Not a little. A lot. I found the Odyssey to be the epitome of SS sound; hard, sibilant, cold. It's important to note that these were the findings of the Odyssey's owner as well, although he had no idea which amp he was listening to. Before the shootout, my friend went on and on about how his little Symphonic Line knock-off even bettered another friend's Rowland. Fast forward 1 year later; both Stratos' were audiogon'd and he now drives his main rig with a Rowland ICEpower amp. The moral of the story is that everyone needs to listen with their own ears, in their own rigs, and not believe the hype. Whether it's Classe, Adcom, Odyssey, or whatever. The simple truth is that there isn't a universal amp that plays well with every type of speaker. Synergy is the key.

kexodusc
09-15-2005, 03:40 AM
Well I have tried bryston for years and it's a mixed bag response. You should read the UHF review of the Bryton 3B who is more up front that some rags. They got a letter from Bryston saying that the sound that UHF received is the speaker's fault. Only that's a BS response because the big Reference 3a La Suprema creates huge bass wiothout any need for a Bryston -- the fact that the result was LESS bass is telling.

I was unimpressed with Classe and B&W as well -- and I too noted a dead dull even muddy sound. Over the years I would take a Bryston because I've heard it work better with more speakers. Amp and speaker should be purchased together not hodgpodged guess buying. For instance I've heard bryston separates on the 700 series and hated the results. But then that was not bryston's fault because everything on the 700 series so far has sounded dreadful for me.

Most people I know are well entrenched on either side of a large divide when it comes to Bryston. I love them death, and haven't had a bad impression yet. I'm told my preference for amps is on the bright side of neutral compared to others, but I can't say I'd call Bryston as bright as my Adcom stuff. I think I mentioned before, I have an uncle who runs his AN E's off Bryston gear when he's not using his old McIntosh or AN tube stuff. (he's not a huge fan of AN's amps, just their speakers). He actually likes the (quote) "piss and vinegar" Bryston introduces to rock and blues he can't get with his tubes. I haven't got a freakin' clue what he's talking about because I don't hear much difference really, and he couldn't describe "piss and vinegar" for me any better than something along the lines of "that feeling you get in the seat of your pants when..." but I'm not as familiar with his speakers, so we'll leave it at that. :D
Most of the time the Brystons drive his PMC's.

I've spent a lot of time with other people's Bryston gear. Someday I hope to have my own.

3db
09-15-2005, 04:40 AM
I heard the name classe over 25 years ago while still a univeristy pup. The big rage back then was that they are Canadian and everyone was talking about their 25x2 class A amplifier, costing back then a hefty 5 Gs. My memory maybe distorting the price a lil. *chuckles* I've never heard them personally but read many good things about them. Like Topspeed says, there is no such thing as an ideal Amplifier that appeals to everyone. Its all just so subjective.

Right now I'm swooining over SymAudio products, those sexy bastards but as always, its way out of my price league .

theaudiohobby
09-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Just a guess on my part, but I think RGA's reference to Classe wasn't that it's a big brand in Europe, just bigger there than it is in North America. That's kind of how I read it.


Yes I meant that sometimes being an IMPORT gives it an added allure. YBA here for example had a very long big high end run that is waning a fair bit. It is French and was one of the premiere high end SS companies. It "seems" that they have become less present due to a few weak efforts like their CD re-play whioch was always seemingly getting dumped on and eventually the prices here probably caught up with them.


To clarify further, Classe is an unknown quantity in the Europe, in fact both Simaudio and Classe have little profile in Europe with very little allure and Classe not even marketed actively until very recently ago and the same applies to Simaudio, Companies like YBA (a local brand) has much greater profile in Europe than Classe, Bryston and Krell have a good following in Europe but Simaudio and Classe currently do not and have never had a big following in Europe.

3db
09-15-2005, 09:59 AM
To clarify further, Classe is an unknown quantity in the Europe, in fact both Simaudio and Classe have little profile in Europe with very little allure and Classe not even marketed actively until very recently ago and the same applies to Simaudio, Companies like YBA (a local brand) has much greater profile in Europe than Classe, Bryston and Krell have a good following in Europe but Simaudio and Classe currently do not and have never had a big following in Europe.


Its Canada's lil secret then. *S*

topspeed
09-28-2005, 10:19 PM
Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.
Interesting...

First, I'm not a member of audiocircle. I don't even know what that is, but I'll presume it's a BB. Apparently, there is a member at that site that, God forbid, also disagrees with Klaus' minions. Second, instead of blowing smoke out of your a$$, why not read my review on this site and see if it is unbalanced (unlike you). The comparison was blind and level matched, which is a heckuva lot more than 99% of people are willing to take the time to do.

If you have a hard-on for Odyssey, knock yourself out. However, your attack merely demerits any opinion you may have.

Then again, your spelling already did that...

drseid
09-29-2005, 01:59 AM
Interesting...

First, I'm not a member of audiocircle. I don't even know what that is, but I'll presume it's a BB. Apparently, there is a member at that site that, God forbid, also disagrees with Klaus' minions. Second, instead of blowing smoke out of your a$$, why not read my review on this site and see if it is unbalanced (unlike you). The comparison was blind and level matched, which is a heckuva lot more than 99% of people are willing to take the time to do.

If you have a hard-on for Odyssey, knock yourself out. However, your attack merely demerits any opinion you may have.

Then again, your spelling already did that...
I think T Bomb has you confused with someone else at the audiocircle.com discussion board Top. If he had read your 1764 posts over here, I don't think he would feel you had some sort of anti-Odyssey agenda.

I agree that peoples' tastes play a large roll in what we perceive as "better." I am just about to receive a new Stratos+ amp in a day or two to see how it meshes with my speakers (I don't like tubes, so they were out) -- so I will know soon if at least on my Tyler speakers the Odyssey works... But I just ditched an Aragon 3002 that I just did not feel worked in the system that cost twice as much (retail). I will give my honest opinion on Odyssey after I have had a few weeks to see how things turn out.

I already know what *does* work with my speakers (and my preferences)... CODA (and Legacy Audio Amps made by CODA). Unfortunately they cost a bundle (and I have already blown one Legacy amp), so I am hoping I will be pleasantly surprised at the Stratos' performance. We shall see, or I see a very expensive amp purchase in my not-so-distant future... ;-)

---Dave

kexodusc
09-29-2005, 03:14 AM
Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.

Yeah TS, keep it real man, keep it real real.
For real.

46minaudio
09-29-2005, 04:37 AM
Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.
T Bomb Lets hope Klaus doesnt ask you and your fellow ("cult members") Odyssey owners to drink the Kool Aid.

topspeed
09-29-2005, 08:10 AM
Dave,

I don't know how you blew the Legacy amp (are Tyler's hard to drive?), but you'd have to be blasting the shingles off your roof to blow the Stratos. The thing is built like a tank. You've got great equipment and no one wants to spend more than they have to. I hope the amp works out in your rig.

Kex,
ROTFLMAO :D:D:D! Yo, I'm down wit dat!

46min,
You never know, God works in mysterious ways...

drseid
09-29-2005, 08:22 AM
Dave,

I don't know how you blew the Legacy amp (are Tyler's hard to drive?), but you'd have to be blasting the shingles off your roof to blow the Stratos. The thing is built like a tank. You've got great equipment and no one wants to spend more than they have to. I hope the amp works out in your rig.

I actually bought that one used, and it took me all of 26 minutes to blow it (and no, at 93db sensitivity, the Tylers should not be *that* hard to drive even if they *are* monsters that probably do need a bit of current for their low-end abilities). My guess is the Legacy amp was already defective when I received it, and I got the bad end of the deal. I *will* say that the 26 minutes it worked were easily the best my speakers have sounded...

---Dave

Woochifer
09-29-2005, 04:11 PM
Topspeed I've seen a lot of your post that has nothing to do with Odyssey, and you still blow smoke out of your a$$ on a consistent basis,so what about my spelling and as far as my opinion goes who are you? You dont have a clue, about 95% of your posts show it.So start contributing something of substance to this forum instead of all these untrue bogus claims.

Just the posts you've made on this thread is pretty self-evident as to who has a clue and who doesn't. topspeed is one of the more level-headed and knowledgeable regulars on this board, and consistently tells people not to go by his word but to try things out for themselves. If someone else hears things differently than he does, he's fine with it.

If "95%" of his posts are clueless in your view (and since I doubt that you've read all of his posts, you're already on shaky evidentiary ground with this kind of grossly exaggerated statement), then why don't you make some factual counterpoints that demonstrate why? When you call someone else out for "untrue bogus claims," you'd better have actual irrefutable facts in your corner (not just "he said, he said" subjective opinions). Otherwise, you've just proven topspeed's point about blowing smoke.

topspeed
09-29-2005, 04:39 PM
Huh, I just knew I should have listened to that little voice telling to stop after that 5th martini at lunch. Weren't there some posts here by Tbomb or am I experiencing another alcohol induced stupor?

Anywho, thanks for the kind words Wooch (I'll pay you later ;) ).

Tbomb,
I usually never point out spelling or grammatical errors simply because I have no idea who speaks english as their mother tongue on a public forum. Therefore, I'll let it slide. However, for someone who shills for Klaus so much, I am a bit perplexed by your lack of knowledge of the company you claim I hate. From your orginal post in this thread:


they are built off of the German high end brand SymphonyActually, it's the Symphonic Line, not Symphony.
I own their Kharago amp and Estiban preampReally? Why not take a look at the faceplate every once in a while as it's a Khartago and Estesian preamp. But you already knew that being an owner and all...

Hmmm...who's making the bogus claims?

Florian
09-29-2005, 04:48 PM
Just out of interest, can someone update me on the current situation? I so do not want to read 3 pages. Did he follow some advice or is he arguing about the advice that was given to him?

-Flo

topspeed
09-29-2005, 05:02 PM
Just out of interest, can someone update me on the current situation? I so do not want to read 3 pages. Did he follow some advice or is he arguing about the advice that was given to him?

-Flo
The OP?

Shoot, he left weeks ago! No one left here but us morons :p!

Florian
09-29-2005, 05:21 PM
HEHE, i have had that quite a few times too :p

T BOMB25
10-02-2005, 01:07 PM
Anyone can mispell words,your so critical on gear,what do you own Topspeed? and please we dont need all these coatale rider Topspeed is a grown man at least im assuming he is anyway he can defend himself,I dont think he needs any of you guys help.And if im wrong about you I will freely admit it,no problem.

Florian
10-02-2005, 01:13 PM
Topspeed has this equipment. You can read it in his profile.

Equipment List:
Denon AVR 3803, PS Audio HCA2, Denon DVD 2910, Sony DVPC600D, Denon DR-M30HX, JVC S-VHS, JVC 52G786, Hitachi 32UX01S, B&W CDM 7NT's, CNT, 1NT's, Definitive Technology PF12TL, Marantz 2230, Von Schweikert VR1's, Cambridge Audio Azure 540a & 54

RGA
10-02-2005, 03:38 PM
Topspeed

I can;t speak to any other Oddyssy amp the ones in my audition were the Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks and the preamps for audition were the Audio Experience symphonies Modified, Sonic Frontiers Line 1, SonoSilence One.

The speakers we used were the Gersman Acoustics X1 with Sub 1 and the Audio Note AN K/Spe. 3 of the 5 listeners felt the K was super extended in the treble and leaned bright certainly more extended and "brighter" than the Gershmans. The other speaker auditioned was the Ellis 1801


I also have no idea of the price of any of the units on the day. The other power amps in the shootout were:

Sonic Impact T-Amp Modified
Musical Fidelity A3cr Dual Mono
SimAudio Celeste W-4070

PS Audio HCA-2 (Did not play) (The fellow who brought this amp much preferred the Odyssy for his Elis loudspeakers and felt it was not worth playing)

Odyssey Stratos Stereo (Did not play)
Radii MSKT-88 Monoblocks

Integrated:
Soundstage Integrated

Digital Sources
Sony DVP-NC555ES Modded
Lite DAC60 Modded
Njoe Tjoeb
Akai Reference Master

Phono Preamps
Holfi Ellipse
Channel Islands Audio VPP-1 and VAC-1 Power Supply

Turntables
Roksan Radius 5 with Ortofon Contrapunkt A
Project Debut II with Shure M97eX

It was a fun time and not really super intensive or conducted blind -- I don;t think ti was necessary - the Celeste sounded lumpy and heavy and even slow. The MF was by far the worst amplifier auditioned and velied on either the speakers -- even the cheapie Tripath which in original form is something like $20.00 US was better at least on the AN K. by no means great the Class T amp was veiled and sounded a bit light int he loafers but given the price I understand the hype and it might have performed better had the K been properly positioned -- or with the non silver wired version of the speakers.

The Oddyssy isn't about to make me switch to Solid State it was simply better in this system with the preamps and spekaers and room than the other amplifiers on the day. Against a Sugden A21a, or Sim Audio or Naim Separates and who knows. But unlike the other SS amps the Odyssy didn't annoy me - though as you note different ears. The K was found to be uber extended in the treble which normally bothers me and myself and one other of the five us felt there was more information being provided in the upper mid and treble and a more open lifelike sound. The other three felt the K was bright. I don;t care for SS ampliers with AN speakers generally but I did appreciate the K for really telling me how different all of these amplifiers really are. And the Gershmans as usual aqcitted themselves nicely as the refined sounding speakers they are. The Oddysseys woke them up from the slumber some of the amps seemed to put them in.

The Ellis was also nice and the owner felt that the Oddysy had far far suoperior bass and drive than his digital amp which he alluded was light weight. But then I bet the Oddyseys cost a lot more and thus should have more.

In my last post I said I would probably not see the value of spending more on SS amplification than the Odysseys -- but really that was a mistake -- I don;t see spending more than the Sugden A21a which is about $2,500.00Cdn -- after that there are very good tube options that I would take over pretty much any SS amp at any price I've heard thus far. But that's just my preference.

drseid
10-03-2005, 01:21 AM
Topspeed

I can;t speak to any other Oddyssy amp the ones in my audition were the Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks and the preamps for audition were the Audio Experience symphonies Modified, Sonic Frontiers Line 1, SonoSilence One.

The speakers we used were the Gersman Acoustics X1 with Sub 1 and the Audio Note AN K/Spe. 3 of the 5 listeners felt the K was super extended in the treble and leaned bright certainly more extended and "brighter" than the Gershmans. The other speaker auditioned was the Ellis 1801


I also have no idea of the price of any of the units on the day. The other power amps in the shootout were:

Sonic Impact T-Amp Modified
Musical Fidelity A3cr Dual Mono
SimAudio Celeste W-4070

PS Audio HCA-2 (Did not play) (The fellow who brought this amp much preferred the Odyssy for his Elis loudspeakers and felt it was not worth playing)

Odyssey Stratos Stereo (Did not play)
Radii MSKT-88 Monoblocks

Integrated:
Soundstage Integrated

Digital Sources
Sony DVP-NC555ES Modded
Lite DAC60 Modded
Njoe Tjoeb
Akai Reference Master

Phono Preamps
Holfi Ellipse
Channel Islands Audio VPP-1 and VAC-1 Power Supply

Turntables
Roksan Radius 5 with Ortofon Contrapunkt A
Project Debut II with Shure M97eX

It was a fun time and not really super intensive or conducted blind -- I don;t think ti was necessary - the Celeste sounded lumpy and heavy and even slow. The MF was by far the worst amplifier auditioned and velied on either the speakers -- even the cheapie Tripath which in original form is something like $20.00 US was better at least on the AN K. by no means great the Class T amp was veiled and sounded a bit light int he loafers but given the price I understand the hype and it might have performed better had the K been properly positioned -- or with the non silver wired version of the speakers.

The Oddyssy isn't about to make me switch to Solid State it was simply better in this system with the preamps and spekaers and room than the other amplifiers on the day. Against a Sugden A21a, or Sim Audio or Naim Separates and who knows. But unlike the other SS amps the Odyssy didn't annoy me - though as you note different ears. The K was found to be uber extended in the treble which normally bothers me and myself and one other of the five us felt there was more information being provided in the upper mid and treble and a more open lifelike sound. The other three felt the K was bright. I don;t care for SS ampliers with AN speakers generally but I did appreciate the K for really telling me how different all of these amplifiers really are. And the Gershmans as usual aqcitted themselves nicely as the refined sounding speakers they are. The Oddysseys woke them up from the slumber some of the amps seemed to put them in.

The Ellis was also nice and the owner felt that the Oddysy had far far suoperior bass and drive than his digital amp which he alluded was light weight. But then I bet the Oddyseys cost a lot more and thus should have more.

In my last post I said I would probably not see the value of spending more on SS amplification than the Odysseys -- but really that was a mistake -- I don;t see spending more than the Sugden A21a which is about $2,500.00Cdn -- after that there are very good tube options that I would take over pretty much any SS amp at any price I've heard thus far. But that's just my preference.

I wonder RGA, which amp faired best with the Ellis speakers per chance (I know you said you and some others preferred the Odyssey Monoblocks with the Audio Notes already)? Since my speakers use the same SEAS mid driver, they have a similar general sound signature... If the Odysseys faired well with the 1801s (I am assuming these were the "B" version), then I might get my pleasant surprise with the Stratos+ afterall (although it looks like it was not used in the shootout).

---Dave

RGA
10-03-2005, 11:29 AM
The owner of the Ellis also owned the Digital amp -- he preferred the Odyssey. Truthfully, he listened to the Odyseey and said it was better than his own amp. We did not listen long enough on the Ellis for me to be able to form an opinion but I did like the Ellis on vocals and it did have very good bass depth. It was not as open as the K nor as quick in transients

drseid
10-03-2005, 01:26 PM
The Ellis is IMO one of the best values in audio... Pretty good bang for the buck for $1500 or less (of course I slightly prefer Tyler for roughly the same price -- my moniker gives that away)... I just wish Dave Ellis would release a larger floorstander version to improve the low-end (I believe there is an 1801F version, but it still is not low enough for my tastes).

Hmm, as for the T-amp, I actually own one of those (I use it for my office system at work). Even heavily modified with a couple hundred dollars of changes, it is a bit tough for it to compete against an amp 5+ times its modified price (although it would be great if it really *did*)... I like mine for what it is though (an inexpensive, high value amp for portable speaker applications). I plan on adding some high sensitivity Consonance Eric-1 mini-monitors to my office system next year, and those 8 watts will do me just fine. Plus as an added bonus if it gets stolen, I wont be out more than $25. :-)

---Dave

RGA
10-03-2005, 06:16 PM
The only issue I had with the Ellis is that it's not very cheap. If you are correct and it is $1500.00 then that is pretty pricey - I prefferred the AN K which admittedly is $2300.00US -- but the AN E is miles and miles better than the K or Ellis and one can buy their kit for about $1700 including the Russian Birch cabinets.

You can build pretty much an entire matching systemd from DAC, to amp to speakers.. One day when i have some money I will probably try the Kit One.

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/

drseid
10-04-2005, 04:31 AM
The only issue I had with the Ellis is that it's not very cheap. If you are correct and it is $1500.00 then that is pretty pricey - I prefferred the AN K which admittedly is $2300.00US -- but the AN E is miles and miles better than the K or Ellis and one can buy their kit for about $1700 including the Russian Birch cabinets.

You can build pretty much an entire matching systemd from DAC, to amp to speakers.. One day when i have some money I will probably try the Kit One.

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/
Well, keep in mind the drivers it uses are some of the best (and most costly) available (SEAS W18 Magnesium Excel mid-bass, and Hiquphon OW1 tweeters). In kit form it is much less expensive ($750 + cabinets) but fully assembled by master speaker builder Jim Salk it comes to about 1.5K last time I looked... Considering the drivers cost about $550+ for the pair, and the superb wood finish that Jim puts on them I would say they might not be "cheap," but are a *very* good value from an objective monetary standpoint (the sound will depend on one's preferences).

---Dave

RGA
10-04-2005, 11:06 AM
The problem is there is way more to a speaker than the drivers or how expensive they are. The bottom line is the AN E has far deeper bass response and is far easier to drive which allows for the use of a set amp. The owner of the Ellis was getting unsuccessful results with a high watt digital amp and would need yet more power to get the bass out of them. Unfortunatley the AN E is a far bigger loudspeaker and requires more money to be spent on the cabinets.

Though it may interest you to know that the AN E uses a modified custom SEAS woofer and a Foster/Tonnegan Tweeter without ferro-fluid cooling.

The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.

Audio Note operates largely on a cost no object premise so they could just as easily use any driver they wish without much added cost to the final product but any driver isn't going to get the sound they're after. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

kexodusc
10-04-2005, 12:09 PM
The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.
Most DIY-ers do one of 2 things...build a proven design, or absolutely take into account the overall synergystic properties of all design considerations. Some are executed better than others. Very, very few buy just any driver and stuff it in a box. The great thing about companies like Seas is that tolerances are incredible straight from the factory. Matching is quite easy. Finding complementary drivers has never been easier with all the choices available today.

. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

I've read this from Peter's posts before. You're reading too much into this. He's got the right approach, but it's an extremely common one. The drivers behave much the same way as any driver with similar excursion. Most 8" woofers don't flap around anymore than the AN E at similar levels. Some are heavier, have lower resonance points, and sp,e require longer excursions of course to produce the same output wihtout damage. This is where the driver acts more like a power tool and less like a speaker IMO. Not great for sound.

Some

drseid
10-04-2005, 01:08 PM
The problem is there is way more to a speaker than the drivers or how expensive they are. The bottom line is the AN E has far deeper bass response and is far easier to drive which allows for the use of a set amp. The owner of the Ellis was getting unsuccessful results with a high watt digital amp and would need yet more power to get the bass out of them. Unfortunatley the AN E is a far bigger loudspeaker and requires more money to be spent on the cabinets.

Though it may interest you to know that the AN E uses a modified custom SEAS woofer and a Foster/Tonnegan Tweeter without ferro-fluid cooling.

The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.

Audio Note operates largely on a cost no object premise so they could just as easily use any driver they wish without much added cost to the final product but any driver isn't going to get the sound they're after. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

True about the sensitivity issue to an extent... I am not a tube fan, so that means nothing to me, but I could definately see that someone who likes SET would not be impressed from that perspective.

I also agree about drivers not being everything... implementation being very important as well. I would say that the Dennis Murphy designed crossovers in the Ellis 1801Bs are pretty good though (IMO).

As for any comparison to AN, I am not qualified to make the comparison, as I have never heard them. I will try to check them out at CES in January. In my case, I guess the looks just don't do it for me (no offense intended). I don't think I could get them in the door before being thrown out of the house... ;-) The sound may be great for all I know though.

---Dave

RGA
10-04-2005, 01:54 PM
Well looks are looks -- I remember a fellow saying about the AN speakers that if you want looks buy B&W good music reproduction looks like Audio Note. -- he was there after trading his Totem mani Two's - another speaker that looks a lot better. The saving grace is that you can stuff the AN's in a corner so they may look less exciting but at least they don't take up the living room floorspace. I think one can do a lot visually with them by simply selecting a good finish http://www.triodeandco.com/ANownersys.html.

And yes there are plenty of lousy tubes...but if you're out in Victoria go to Soundhounds and let them show you two big myths about tubes -- they have no bass and rolled off Treble. After hearing big SS amps on the AN E and the 8 watt Meishu the latter had deeper fundamentals and a far clearer top end --- Bryston is basically totally outclassed in every regard. That is what caught my attention. I grew up on SS and CD -- and when I first heard it I was amazed at what could be done with this - indeed, I didn;t know it was tube amp because they hide em in the box.

The Jolida 302b has a tubey sound - Cary, it has been said to me by my dealer who carries AN and Cary that Cary, is stereotipically tubey sounding. I don't want a tubey amp - I want one that doesn't sound artificial and etched and I don't want one that is ovelry warm and veiled (My Sugden A48b was veiled a little and described as Valve like). I'd take a tubey valvey veiled sound over the etchy edgy brittle sound of most SS amps though because so many speakers using metal drivers combined with the SS amps are just downright earbleeding so to "FIX" the problem a valve sounding veiling amp can be desirable.

For me though it rules out both bryston like amps and Jolida like amps. Though I do like both Bryston and Jolida I'd find I'd be using the Jolida as tone control for many speakers and Bryston for speakers that are overly dull to get them to wake up.

Thus I can wholeheartedly recommend PMC and Bryston (and I even "like" the sound) to people - even though it's about as polar opposite from AN as it gets.

The ellis I'm not knocking at all becuase one of the things I REALLY liked about the speaker was its decay which so very very few speakers even hint at at any price - and its vocals -- they are one of the most "seamless" sounding speakers I have heard. And may be even better if it was more of an experienced builder building them. The only issue is that my favorite SS amps will not run them I don;t think. Though I understand that Pass Aleph makes pure Class A amplifiers and Sugden makes a higher watt MasterClass range which probably have plenty of power for the Ellis. The Problem is that the combined price starts to get up there and the AN J and AN E have more bass a more tuneful sound is more open sounding is just as seamless and opens the available amplifier market up greatly and thus may run cheaper as a result.

I would love to hear the top version of the Ellis with such amplifiers as I noted though because there is so few good stuff that I like enough to really want to mention.

RGA
10-04-2005, 02:25 PM
Most DIY-ers do one of 2 things...build a proven design, or absolutely take into account the overall synergystic properties of all design considerations. Some are executed better than others. Very, very few buy just any driver and stuff it in a box. The great thing about companies like Seas is that tolerances are incredible straight from the factory. Matching is quite easy. Finding complementary drivers has never been easier with all the choices available today.


I've read this from Peter's posts before. You're reading too much into this. He's got the right approach, but it's an extremely common one. The drivers behave much the same way as any driver with similar excursion. Most 8" woofers don't flap around anymore than the AN E at similar levels. Some are heavier, have lower resonance points, and sp,e require longer excursions of course to produce the same output wihtout damage. This is where the driver acts more like a power tool and less like a speaker IMO. Not great for sound.

Some

Did you get banned at Audioasylum or something -- why not just go there and ask him. The B&W N801 has a 15 inch woofer and it moves far more than the AN E 8 inch does to produce those low notes. So the bigger the woofer by this reasoning should need to move LESS when producing bass at higher levels. I have Wharfedale 3 ways which use 10 inch woofers also paper and they move FAR FAR more than the AN's and the AN's go lower and even wehn i play it louder the driver still moves far less -- you can certainly see it vibrate but when it comes to those big booms the Wharfedales have huge in/out movement -- the AN does not.

"Dear Kelly,
Using 90 dB speakers with any SET and expecting it to be able to give the explosiveness of a full crescendo of an orchestra is quite simply unrealistic, as Thorsten and several others have already commented, assuming off course it is on the recording in the first place (very hard to record to begin with!).

Remember also that most modern speaker drivers are designed for high power applications, not for low power SETs, this means that the voice coils are designed to dissipate a lot of heat first and foremost, which means long speech coils much of the winding outside the linear part of the magnetic field, which is much wider than it should be (further loss of linearity and field focus), in addition the suspension is less compliant and less symmetrical than it needs to be to prevent the long throw from bottoming out, all of these aspects of driver design disadvantage the SET greatly over and above the pure efficiency issues.

Compressions always start in the recording, and I have to say that out of the very large number of recordings I own on both LP and CD a very large portion sound compressed.

Especially modern CDs are mastered to raise the level as much as possible (in the mistaken belief that if a CD sounds "really loud" then it is dynamic sounding) and this results in a "dynamic sound window" which is quite small from bottom (silence) to top (crescendo), such recordings are not good for judging anything, although you may like the music and the performance regardless.

Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup"

Problem is that this doesn;t directly discuss the issue so just post the question to him or e-mail him -- he gets back to people fairly quickly. It is something that every owner has noted and DR. Cope has noted and I can physically see when playing music.

drseid
10-04-2005, 05:39 PM
Well looks are looks -- I remember a fellow saying about the AN speakers that if you want looks buy B&W good music reproduction looks like Audio Note. -- he was there after trading his Totem mani Two's - another speaker that looks a lot better. The saving grace is that you can stuff the AN's in a corner so they may look less exciting but at least they don't take up the living room floorspace. I think one can do a lot visually with them by simply selecting a good finish http://www.triodeandco.com/ANownersys.html.

And yes there are plenty of lousy tubes...but if you're out in Victoria go to Soundhounds and let them show you two big myths about tubes -- they have no bass and rolled off Treble. After hearing big SS amps on the AN E and the 8 watt Meishu the latter had deeper fundamentals and a far clearer top end --- Bryston is basically totally outclassed in every regard. That is what caught my attention. I grew up on SS and CD -- and when I first heard it I was amazed at what could be done with this - indeed, I didn;t know it was tube amp because they hide em in the box.

The Jolida 302b has a tubey sound - Cary, it has been said to me by my dealer who carries AN and Cary that Cary, is stereotipically tubey sounding. I don't want a tubey amp - I want one that doesn't sound artificial and etched and I don't want one that is ovelry warm and veiled (My Sugden A48b was veiled a little and described as Valve like). I'd take a tubey valvey veiled sound over the etchy edgy brittle sound of most SS amps though because so many speakers using metal drivers combined with the SS amps are just downright earbleeding so to "FIX" the problem a valve sounding veiling amp can be desirable.

For me though it rules out both bryston like amps and Jolida like amps. Though I do like both Bryston and Jolida I'd find I'd be using the Jolida as tone control for many speakers and Bryston for speakers that are overly dull to get them to wake up.

.

Or you can buy Tyler and have looks and sound. ;-)

Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though, the ANs may not look good to *me,* but to many others they may look superb... it really is a matter of individual preferences. My Tylers (or insert brand X) may look hidious to you and/or others by contrast. Personally I can deal with looks not being to my liking if the sound is superior enough...

My experience with Jolida was on the Tyler Woodmeres (the top of the line for the brand) at CES this year... While the brand has a great reputation, I confess I thought the Woodmeres deserved much better (good sound to be sure, but on a speaker of that caliber it deserved a better amp, IMO)... Cary's tubes I really don't have much experience with so I can't comment on them (my Cary pre/pro is SS).

In the case of SS and its flaws... There are quite a deal of bad SS amps out there (and I have unfortunately owned more than a few in my time). My speakers tend to be very finicky with amps... but when a good one is placed in the chain, you are rewarded. I have found that CODA (which is SS) works nicely with my Tylers (and I suspect it would work with Ellis and many other brands as well).

When you go to CES if you have a chance to stop by the CODA room, check out their class A SS amps... They are quite good, IMO (but also quite pricey, unfortunately). CODA uses my Tyler Linbrook Signature System as one of their reference speakers, BTW. I believe their other reference speaker is one of the upper Von Schweikert models (it might be the super-excellent VR-9). Their room might be worth a look...

As for a visit to Soundhounds, I may just do that... I am due for a trip back to Canada, and I love trying out new brands and stores. I will definitely keep them in mind.

---Dave

RGA
10-04-2005, 08:17 PM
It's actually quite an easy dealer to get to for Americans because there is a direct ferry from Seattle right to Victoria. We're hosting the Olympics - I believe the Winter one in 2010. Err don't wait that long LOL

Von Sweikert is something I want to listen to. My personal take is that any SS amplifier smart enough to know that amplifers need to be pure Class A are on the right path. They seem more prevalent now than for a long while.

I think the AN's are BUTT Ugly speakers -- I didn't want to listen to them and was being a kind of gracious customer since the dealer went to the trouble for setting them up. Believe me I would FAR FAR rather buy a B&W N805 which is sleek and sexy. If the sound quality was even remotely "in the ballpark" I would have sacrificed some sound quality for looks.

The same goes for the AMP. I'd far rather own a JADIS tube amp or an ASL or Cary which I could have got for the same price as the OTO SE. Or a pile of stunner SS amps like MF. Ohh I so would like Audio Note to add decent looks to their stuff I mean the OTO is a plain black box with 5 gold coloured knobs on the front. http://images.gppgle.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abo.fi/~egersow/oto.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.abo.fi/~egersow/audionote.html&h=280&w=300&sz=13&tbnid=Fzz1L7CO9ocJ:&tbnh=103&tbnw=111&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daudio%2Bnote%2BOTO%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Look at some stunners I wish the OTO look liked -- Jadis http://www.infine-audio.com/marques/jadis/orchestra_ref.jpg
or http://www.hifinet.co.kr/upload/hardware/amp/CaryCAD300sei.jpg

And no offense to Peter but even he looks a little disheveled :D http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/britishairways.htm

As for tubes I have not heard a ton and not very many of the high end ones. The Meishu is about $8k and I heard a nuvista with the N801 (which was the best I have heard from that speaker despite the amps meger 11 watts). Trouble is it could not play loud enough to be satisfactory but at the volume it was at it was better than I have heard that speaker sound.

I'm not anti-SS -- my favorite amp under $2k is the Sugden A21a which is pure class A and is also Single Ended. Very conceiveably Sugden's Master Class range can better it such that I would take it over a given pricey valve amp. The OTO SE is one of the bottom end AN amps -- the bottome end SE design...but there is an organic sound and a spatiality and a PULSE given to music is awfully difficult to trade in for pyrotechnic SLAM.

It's all about system matching anyway -- one would hope that at audio shows the speaker maker selects the amp to be connected and or vice versa.

The decision people have to make is are they a gear head or a music listener. I'm the latter...I don't want to be reminded of the system except that every time I turn the thing on I get a little excited by what i'm gonna hear and when I turn it off I think thank God I ran into this company so I can finally not ever be irritated by the thing I paid more than I could afford.

If you find that with anything then you're doing well in my view.