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Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-01-2005, 08:15 AM
The amount of racism spewing out of the news agencies in the wake of Katrina is staggering. A co-worker and very close friend of mine directed me to this website picture that so angered me, I couldn't see straight.

http://www.wonkette.com/politics/ap/index.php

This really upset me alot. This morning on our stations morning news, we ran a story about some of the crime taking place in New Oleans. On reporter describe a situation much like in the photo with three white people wading through the water with a small boat full of food. She describe this a "foraging" for food. In the next clip three black men were pushing a cart full of food down the street, she called this looting. Another scene involved fire. One picture where a group of ten white men and women were starting a fire, she describe this as trying to stay warm. In another scene with a black family doing exactly the same thing, she called it arson. The report went on for two minutes with this white reporter using neutral terms to describe the actions of whites, and totally negative for blacks. I have four televisions in my office monitoring our channel, and several others such as Fox, CNN, and our local competitors. I saw this played out more than four times at the other networks, and at least 6 more times on the local news. This is bull crap.

Another example, the young woman missing in Aruba. Our station played this story out for weeks, however we had a local black girl missing, and no mention. When Sandra Levy was missing, at the same time a young black female was also missing in the DC area. No mention of her at all.

Are the lives of black people worth less the the lives of whites? I would say no, but according to the media that answer is yes. There is also a gender bias. Did anyone know that there are twice as many men missing right now, than women? We only hear about women, more specifically, pretty young white women missing. This is a shame and a crime.

This morning I went to our Executive producer of the morning news and read her the riot act. I asked how could she air this kind of crap when she knew there was a strong racial bias in it. She said she had no idea it was there. The funning thing is it was two of my white co workers that pointed all of this out. If they could see it, why couldn't she?

Lately I have been really paying attention during our broadcast. As I pay attention more, I see we report stories of the negative things that blacks and hispanic do at about four times the rate of whites. If someone didn't know any better, they would believe that whites don't do crime, and only people of color do. Any intelligent person knows that bad people come in all flavors. I am discovering more and more that there is absolutely no balance in the media, and the media is so racist it's pitiful.

American, the most advanced and powerful country in the world, and it cannot get past the race issue. As a hispanic man, this is most frustrating. Why is color always such a big issue all of the time? What ever happen to the people under the color. Have we totally forgotten about them? What are your thoughts on this issue. All opinions are welcomed and respected.

Duds
09-01-2005, 08:18 AM
and also agree that it is crap, but dont forget there are a lot of racist black people too. Athletes come to mind quickly, recently Gary Sheffield made a statement how white reporters just dont understand him. Isnt that a racist staement? Same with Milton Bradley and hwo he said Jeff Kent doesnt understand black people. Arent they making there issues a black/white issue? I could be wrong, but thats how it comes across to me.


The amount of racism spewing out of the news agencies in the wake of Katrina is staggering. A co-worker and very close friend of mine directed me to this website picture that so angered me, I couldn't see straight.

http://www.wonkette.com/politics/ap/index.php

This really upset me alot. This morning on our stations morning news, we ran a story about some of the crime taking place in New Oleans. On reporter describe a situation much like in the photo with three white people wading through the water with a small boat full of food. She describe this a "foraging" for food. In the next clip three black men were pushing a cart full of food down the street, she called this looting. Another scene involved fire. One picture where a group of ten white men and women were starting a fire, she describe this as trying to stay warm. In another scene with a black family doing exactly the same thing, she called it arson. The report went on for two minutes with this white reporter using neutral terms to describe the actions of whites, and totally negative for blacks. I have four televisions in my office monitoring our channel, and several others such as Fox, CNN, and our local competitors. I saw this played out more than four times at the other networks, and at least 6 more times on the local news. This is bull crap.

Another example, the young woman missing in Aruba. Our station played this story out for weeks, however we had a local black girl missing, and no mention. When Sandra Levy was missing, at the same time a young black female was also missing in the DC area. No mention of her at all.

Are the lives of black people worth less the the lives of whites? I would say no, but according to the media that answer is yes. There is also a gender bias. Did anyone know that there are twice as many men missing right now, than women? We only hear about women, more specifically, pretty young white women missing. This is a shame and a crime.

This morning I went to our Executive producer of the morning news and read her the riot act. I asked how could she air this kind of crap when she knew there was a strong racial bias in it. She said she had no idea it was there. The funning thing is it was two of my white co workers that pointed all of this out. If they could see it, why couldn't she?

Lately I have been really paying attention during our broadcast. As I pay attention more, I see we report stories of the negative things that blacks and hispanic do at about four times the rate of whites. If someone didn't know any better, they would believe that whites don't do crime, and only people of color do. Any intelligent person knows that bad people come in all flavors. I am discovering more and more that there is absolutely no balance in the media, and the media is so racist it's pitiful.

American, the most advanced and powerful country in the world, and it cannot get past the race issue. As a hispanic man, this is most frustrating. Why is color always such a big issue all of the time? What ever happen to the people under the color. Have we totally forgotten about them? What are your thoughts on this issue. All opinions are welcomed and respected.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-01-2005, 09:03 AM
and also agree that it is crap, but dont forget there are a lot of racist black people too. Athletes come to mind quickly, recently Gary Sheffield made a statement how white reporters just dont understand him. Isnt that a racist staement? Same with Milton Bradley and hwo he said Jeff Kent doesnt understand black people. Arent they making there issues a black/white issue? I could be wrong, but thats how it comes across to me.

I don't think that Gary's comments are that out of order Duds. There are some issues that blacks don't understand about latino's, some issues that whites don't under blacks, and that is largely why we have racism. There was a experiment on 20/20 last year that was very eye opening for many people, even ones who call themselves very liberal. They wired five people so they could monitor brain activity, and they had them look at photos of different people. Everytime a white person saw a black face in the pic's, their brain activity showed signs of increased activity in a section of the brain the monitor good and bad thoughts. Certain patterns in the analsys signal positive thoughts, and certain patterns register negative ones. When done in reverse on a black person(especially elder black men) the same thing happened when blacks saw certain kinds of white faces.

Racism cuts both ways. Some blacks don't understand whites, some whites don't understand blacks. That's natural, culturally they are quite different. However, what bugs me is that neither seems to want to bridge the gap and make an attempt to even try to understand each other. This is the part of America that I think is so backwards, entrenched, and dang stupid.

Kam
09-01-2005, 09:08 AM
Are the lives of black people worth less the the lives of whites? I would say no, but according to the media that answer is yes. There is also a gender bias. Did anyone know that there are twice as many men missing right now, than women? We only hear about women, more specifically, pretty young white women missing. This is a shame and a crime.


it is scary. and unfortunate. but currently, according to corporate advertising dollars, it is true. i always found it telling to watch what commercials played during what programs and how you can see the broad strokes painted by advertising dollars (beer during football games, car commercials during evening news, and even further WHICH car commercials do you see during which programs? mercedes/lexus/porsche or hyundai/saturn/etc). the media (overall, all types, including entertainment) is incredibly biased so much so that certain things are almost accepted cliches (it's a 'surprise' and original when the black character isn't the first to die in a horror movie, see Crash (the paul haggis movie) as a good example).
and what makes that link scary, is how many times did someone look it over before they realized something was wrong. it all stems from ignorance, and the solution, an education and acceptance of everyone as human beings first and foremost, is such a simple solution, but an incredibly expensive one for the people who make money on keeping the status quo as the status quo. its the same with terrorism (ignorance, that is) we can hunt down and kill the terrorist and treat the symptoms, but its a lot harder to treat the disease and foster education and learning in the world and eliminate the disease of terrorism and racism and other 'isms' rather than flounder at trying to eliminate each symptom as it pops up. when we get rid of money and religion, the world can finally progress into star trek utopia and then we can all fight those damn klingons (where are you worfster!!?? we'll get you!)

peace (hopefully)
k2
(go 'canes)

Duds
09-01-2005, 09:12 AM
I guess thats the point i was trying to make, that it goes both ways, i just dont express myself very well.

I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way either :)


I don't think that Gary's comments are that out of order Duds. There are some issues that blacks don't understand about latino's, some issues that whites don't under blacks, and that is larger why we have racism. There was a experiment on 20/20 last year that was very eye opening for many people, even ones who call themselves very liberal. They wired five people so they could monitor brain activity, and they had them look at photos of different people. Everytime a white person saw a black face in the pic's, their brain activity showed signs of increased activity in a section of the brain the monitor good and bad thoughts. Certain patterns in the analsys signal positive thoughts, and certain patterns register negative ones. When done in reverse on a black person(especially elder black men) the same thing happened when blacks saw certain kinds of white faces.

Racism cuts both ways. Some blacks don't understand whites, some whites don't understand blacks. That's natural, culturally they are quite different. However, what bugs me is that neither seems to want to bridge the gap and make an attempt to even try to understand each other. This is the part of America that I think is so backwards, entrenched, and dang stupid.

GMichael
09-01-2005, 09:32 AM
There is plenty of blame to be spread around to all sides. What we need to do is to forget the blame, and most of all, forget the sides. We should all be on the same side. That will never completely happen. But think how much better it would be if we all tried anyhow. It comes easier for some than for others. We'll just have to try harder. Someone has to "take up the slack."

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-01-2005, 09:36 AM
There is plenty of blame to be spread around to all sides. What we need to do is to forget the blame, and most of all, forget the sides. We should all be on the same side. That will never completely happen. But think how much better it would be if we all tried anyhow. It comes easier for some than for others. We'll just have to try harder. Someone has to "take up the slack."

You are absolutely correct G. It seems that no one wants to stick their hand out first though. I am lucky, while most of my family is carribean latino, my grandmother is european white, some cousins are black or mixed black, and I have some white second cousins. I thought the whole world was this multicultural and got along like my family did. Boy was I wrong!

dean_martin
09-01-2005, 09:42 AM
Yep, I was just exposed to such an example of this. I couple of weeks ago I went to a continuing legal education seminar that included one of the attorneys who represented Richard Scrushy in the HealthSouth fraud prosecution. The stories that were coming out during the trial suggested that Scrushy's attorneys (the lead defense attorneys were black) were pandering to the black jurors. The stories really seemed bizzare in that Scrushy is white. Then, when the verdict came back "not guilty" the press blamed the "uneducated black jurors" and the pandering. If anyone is interested in this case they can access ALL the government's evidence. Out of over 1 million documents confiscated by the government NOT ONE linked Scrushy to the fraud. During the trial, the prosecution leaked the fact that it had sent in a high-ranking corporate officer with a wire to get admissions from Scrushy on tape. When the tapes were played at trial the conversations revealed that Scrushy was oblivious to the company's books being fixed. Several of the board members were indicted and most were convicted EXCEPT for the guy who the gov't sent in to tape Scrushy. It turned out that this guy was the mastermind behind the fraud. The board members and upper management involved cooked the books to inflate the stock then sold their stock options. Scrushy never sold his. In other words, he never personally profited from the fraud. Scrushy was trying to court a buyer for his company at the time and the board and upper management were fighting him on it because they knew that the potential buyer would come in and examine the books. I found it hard to believe that Scrushy didn't know what was going on until I heard this summary of the evidence that was never reported. There are still editorials with racial overtones in Alabama papers saying that Scrushy should be retried.

GMichael
09-01-2005, 09:53 AM
You are absolutely correct G. It seems that no one wants to stick their hand out first though. I am lucky, while most of my family is carribean latino, my grandmother is european white, some cousins are black or mixed black, and I have some white second cousins. I thought the whole world was this multicultural and got along like my family did. Boy was I wrong!

HAHAHA,...

So true. I was lucky that my parents taught me, at an early age, that everyone deserves to be treated as equals. By time I noticed that they didn't always treat people the same, it was too late. I was already set in my ways and didn't fall into their shortcomings.

I am white. About as white as white can be. 10 minutes in the sun and I turn red like a lobster. Must be the German, Irish and Dutch in me. My wife is from the Philippines and is about as dark as dark can be. Those same 10 minutes in the sun for her turn her even darker. We get along fine. All it takes is a little understanding.

Now, how do we get the rest of the world to follow?

Pyrrho
09-01-2005, 09:59 AM
I don't think that Gary's comments are that out of order Duds. There are some issues that blacks don't understand about latino's, some issues that whites don't under blacks, and that is larger why we have racism. There was a experiment on 20/20 last year that was very eye opening for many people, even ones who call themselves very liberal. They wired five people so they could monitor brain activity, and they had them look at photos of different people. Everytime a white person saw a black face in the pic's, their brain activity showed signs of increased activity in a section of the brain the monitor good and bad thoughts. Certain patterns in the analsys signal positive thoughts, and certain patterns register negative ones. When done in reverse on a black person(especially elder black men) the same thing happened when blacks saw certain kinds of white faces.

Racism cuts both ways. Some blacks don't understand whites, some whites don't understand blacks. That's natural, culturally they are quite different. However, what bugs me is that neither seems to want to bridge the gap and make an attempt to even try to understand each other. This is the part of America that I think is so backwards, entrenched, and dang stupid.


I think a major source of the problem is the segregation (whether by choice or not) that exists in this country. There is nothing like interacting with people of a different background on a daily basis to see that they really are people like everyone else. (Some good, some not so good, just like people everywhere.) But when people are segregated, their ideas about each other are largely derived from stories they have heard (as they do not have the direct experience needed to come to conclusions on their own). I used to teach, and I have taught in white suburbia and in cities where the students were more integrated. I was quite shocked by the racist statements of students in white suburbia, and NEVER encountered the same kinds of statements from students in the mixed areas. (Just so you know, I am white, and look about as white as could be--very light skin, blue eyes, etc. None of the racist remarks were directed at me.)

Let me be very clear, however, as I do NOT want to give the impression that all white people in suburbia are racist (I am from such a place myself, though I now live in a city, in a portion that is mostly black). But racism can flourish much easier in areas where people do not encounter people of other races in their daily lives.

So, I think this is going to be a problem for a very long time, as many people, being racist, do not want to live next door to one of "them" (whoever the "them" might be).

Oh, and for those who are curious, being a white person in a predominantly black area is mostly fine. Most of my neighbors are quite friendly and nice, as nice as anywhere I have lived. There is a bit of a cultural difference between me and some of my neighbors (though not nearly as many as you might think), largely due, I think, to a difference in education. But it is not really a problem, as I do not pretend to be what I am not, and neither do they. Being different is not bad, and this is something that people should learn.

Another source of the problem is the tendency that people have of lumping groups together instead of judging them as individuals. When they see, for example, one black person do something bad, they often imagine this to be typical of all black people. Imagine, if you will, that YOU were to be blamed for the faults of those who resemble you (racially, culturally, whatever). You obviously would regard this as most unjust (which it would be), and yet many people do this with others all of the time. People say things like, "Black people are...", "Hispanics are...", "White people are...", "The Palestinians are...", "The Israelis are..." [finish the sentences for yourself]. Obviously, NOT all black people are anything (other than black people), NOT all Hispanics are anything (other than Hispanic), NOT all white people are anything (other than white people), etc. But many people, being too lazy to think, lump people together, as it is easy and quick, saving them the trouble of judging individuals on their own merits. Most people can't be bothered with actually THINKING about things. This common tendency is not likely to go away any time soon either.

piece-it pete
09-01-2005, 10:03 AM
Hello T!

Sticking to those nice noncontroversial topics, I see :D .

Plain talk is good, just on its' own.

I've thought about this for years, ever since a black guy asked me why white people were prejudiced. I think what I told him is still largely true:

The average white person is scared of minorities. We overall do not understand the minority viewpoint and/or culture, and fear what we don't understand.

I know this is something of an oversimpification and there are legitimate greivences on all sides. I still believe it to be generally true.

Of course this excludes the haters of all stripes and colors. But these are fortunately in my experience the "minority". ;)

When I gave commercial real estate a crack back around '90 I had some eye opening experiences in the restaurant end. One in particular: A couple of Indians (from India) owned and operated a couple gas stations in upstate NY, and were looking to buy a place to start an Indian style restaurant. One for sale was a Greek restaurant (How many stereotypes are we at already :) ). I arranged a meeting at the place.

All parties were nice types. The Greek, effusive and friendy, gave everyone whatever they wanted and the discussion started. Like this: "So, you're from India. Boy, you guys can sure run those gas stations and convenience stores!" (I was gaping with my mouth wide open, no kidding) The Indians, one a very solemn Sunni and the other a worldly happy adopted NYC'er, thanked him and said "Yes, we've gotten good at that. I've got to say, you Greeks are great at these restaurants!"

Whoa. All very straightforward and friendly. Since then I've watched and have noticed that overall minorities talk about each other quite openly! This is something whites are not allowed to do - discuss perceived traits of various races openly.

I'm coming back to plain talk. If you ask 10 white people why they don't want XX minority "moving in their neighborhood", 9 of them will say, "W-w-w-well I don't mind". AT LEAST 5 will be lieing.

For the most part it's not because they believe that XX minority is evil. It's because of at least 5 reasons that will never be told because they'll be villified if they say what they actually think.

And even the minorities are afraid of discussing this stuff "on air". How on earth are we supposed to deal with this stuff if we can't even talk about it?

Pete

kexodusc
09-01-2005, 10:17 AM
As someone who's lived in 3 different countries I have a different perspective on this. America, Canada, and Germany (I guess France as well - I lived there for a few months, but I'm hardly an expert) all have their share of prejudices, but they differ according to the history of the country/region. In the case of America it's so polarized on the black and white color issue - in Canada it's language, in Germany it's religion, in France well, they've got their dirty laundry too.

In each case of stereotyping originates from some sort of historic truth. Not necessarily "the absolute truth", just the perceived truth (which is often not true at all)...that's how a stereotype works, there's evidence to make it believable, and enough reinforcement to make it general, or universally accepted. Sometimes it's just way too inaccurate to be credible but works anyway. I hear a billion stories about Chinese restaurants. In college, I worked for three different Chinese restaurants, and a few bars and general family restaurants. I can say without hesitation that the Chinese restaurants were the cleanest, most sanitary places I worked in - but they HAD to be...health inspectors were always around, and were very critical. Maybe they have statistical evidence to support it? I don't know, but I was shocked at how long an inspector could take at a small restuarant with 6 tables, and how fast he could burn through a Denny's and overlook the obvious violations.

My bloodlines are Irish/Scottish and Cree(North Dakota Indian)/Metis(French Canadian Indian). 50% white/50% Indian (or Native, we use both terms without hesitation, some do not, I'm not here to start that argument) I've found it amazing how much different I am treated from one country to the next. In Canada, my skin color has been mostly irrelavant, except for the few idiots in a bar fight or whatever...but I've received tons of negative comments for speaking french (which is actually my 2nd language, I don't speak it nearly as much as english). What's worse, when I speak french in Quebec, they answer me in English because I speak "bastardized Canadian French" not pure Quebec French (which again, is different than real France French)...except for Montreal...best city in the world they'll take your money no matter what you sound, look, or smell like.

In the USA its skin-tone. Though for whatever reason I've been at the receiving end of prejudiced remarks from non-whites more than whites in the USA. Except when I was living in Atlanta and I travelled through rural Georgia, but that's another story...

The media rubs me the wrong way too Sir T. The whole damn country does some times, the way native people are presented in school history classes is a joke. My ancestors were killed or bannished (ironically enough by my other ancestors) pretty much for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I think that element of American history has been overshadowed by black history. Guess we can only handle one wrongdoing at a time.

My families are probably as bad as anyone for stereotyping...I've just learned to block it out, sometimes there stereotyping from ignorance, which I can forgive - then there's hate, which is much worse. Doesn't matter the culture I think it's just an unfortunate element of human nature. Whenever I get down about it I just do what my grandmother always told me to do - think about how far society has come in just such a short time. I didn't have nearly as bad as she did, forced onto reservations, separated from family, etc. My kids will have it even better.
The last 50 years or so have been revolutionary on many levels. I really think in my heart that things are slowly getting better. Multi-culturalism is new to much of the human race. Previous examples were brought on usually only when one culture was conquered and assimilated by another. It's not going as fast as we'd like, and we've got a lot of hard work left to do, but I think for the most part people are willing. It's just the few idiots that spoil it for the rest of us.

Apparently idiots aspire to work in the media industry.

piece-it pete
09-01-2005, 10:32 AM
Would it be inappropriate to post some Tom Lehrer lyrics?

Pete

GMichael
09-01-2005, 10:40 AM
And here it's the people who like separates vs. those who like receivers. Where will it end?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-01-2005, 10:56 AM
Apparently idiots aspire to work in the media industry.

I just started working in television news, and you just don't know how right you are man.

Last year I went to Hawaii for 3 weeks. Stayed in the sun so much that my friends swear I changed races(I can now pass easily for a black male). Before my trip I was never couscious of my skin color. After that trip I noticed that I was treated very differently. We in American have definately forgotten that people are under all of this skin color.


And here it's the people who like separates vs. those who like receivers. Where will it end?

LOLOLOLOLOL, those dang arrogant seperate types, they just don't understand receivers. They have seperated themselves from receivers too long! LOLOLOL


Hello T!

Sticking to those nice noncontroversial topics, I see

Pete, I guess I am so laid back about so many things that these dang noncontroversial topics really piss me off! LOL.

piece-it pete
09-01-2005, 12:20 PM
Sir T, everyone, I just wanted to mention that it is AMAZING this thread has been treated so maturely. ANYWHERE, but particularly online, this sort of thing turns into a childish hatefest. My hat is off to you all.

I think discussing dificult topics here has taught us all something.

Pete

Duds
09-01-2005, 12:24 PM
I thought this post would be totally out of hand right now. I'm glad it's not though!!!


Sir T, everyone, I just wanted to mention that it is AMAZING this thread has been treated so maturely. ANYWHERE, but particularly online, this sort of thing turns into a childish hatefest. My hat is off to you all.

I think discussing dificult topics here has taught us all something.

Pete

Resident Loser
09-02-2005, 05:39 AM
I thought this post would be totally out of hand right now. I'm glad it's not though!!!

...but it's still early...

Personally, I think all looters should be shot on sight regardless of race...but it's not gonna' happen...in fact one of the affected state's constitution prohibits declaring martial law...gee. I wonder if that'll be given a serious re-think?

Now, problem is, here we have two moments in time, devoid of context...were there other photos taken that would have shed more light on the circumstance? Maybe the publishers had more info that supported their particular POV...I dunno' and I admit it...so, I'll reserve (to some degree) any particular verdict on what's what...but(as the other shoe falls) we see one party with a loaf or two of bread and another with a trash bag full of things...again, I have no Kreskin-like powers, so a simple judgement call on my part is uncalled for.

What I have seen is footage of folks looting, in situ, no question about it...the food and perishibles are long gone...so there are tapes showing folks rolling entire display racks of items not really required for survival, grinning and mugging for the camera...they just happen to be black...

What we see are clothing stores, jewelry stores and, most troubling of all, gun stores in the process of being or in an after-the-fact state of having been, looted.

Fires ARE being set in housing projects in predominantly black areas...

Thugs have taken over some minority areas and are raping and robbing at will...

We see a scene of a older black man breaking into tears because he knows what's happening outside the confines of his tenuous shelter which also happens to be in a depressed area...

We see veiled threats of continued violence based on some illogical premise from other residents...

We hear of shots being fired at support helicopters postponing further aid flights...

And so it goes...

Now, I'll be the first to admit that these scum-suckers are a small percentage of the population, but it is(like it or not) a predominantly a black population, so it's a simple case of numbers.

There are people out there being held in check by the thin blue line and folks, as we can plainly see, we are one step from anarchy without them.

Is there a case for bias in the news coverage or is it simply a reflection on what is actually happening?

jimHJJ(...just because we don't like what we see doesn't make it less of the truth...)

shokhead
09-02-2005, 06:07 AM
The truth is,as much as it sucks is that racism will be here forever. It wont go away. We cant all get along. I think we are all 1 inch or 1 second from whats going on there without Katrina. Sh$t could hit the fan so dam fast and get out of hand it would make our headfs spin.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-02-2005, 01:36 PM
...but it's still early...

Personally, I think all looters should be shot on sight regardless of race...but it's not gonna' happen...in fact one of the affected state's constitution prohibits declaring martial law...gee. I wonder if that'll be given a serious re-think?

Now, problem is, here we have two moments in time, devoid of context...were there other photos taken that would have shed more light on the circumstance? Maybe the publishers had more info that supported their particular POV...I dunno' and I admit it...so, I'll reserve (to some degree) any particular verdict on what's what...but(as the other shoe falls) we see one party with a loaf or two of bread and another with a trash bag full of things...again, I have no Kreskin-like powers, so a simple judgement call on my part is uncalled for.

What I have seen is footage of folks looting, in situ, no question about it...the food and perishibles are long gone...so there are tapes showing folks rolling entire display racks of items not really required for survival, grinning and mugging for the camera...they just happen to be black...

What we see are clothing stores, jewelry stores and, most troubling of all, gun stores in the process of being or in an after-the-fact state of having been, looted.

Fires ARE being set in housing projects in predominantly black areas...

Thugs have taken over some minority areas and are raping and robbing at will...

We see a scene of a older black man breaking into tears because he knows what's happening outside the confines of his tenuous shelter which also happens to be in a depressed area...

We see veiled threats of continued violence based on some illogical premise from other residents...

We hear of shots being fired at support helicopters postponing further aid flights...

And so it goes...

Now, I'll be the first to admit that these scum-suckers are a small percentage of the population, but it is(like it or not) a predominantly a black population, so it's a simple case of numbers.

There are people out there being held in check by the thin blue line and folks, as we can plainly see, we are one step from anarchy without them.

Is there a case for bias in the news coverage or is it simply a reflection on what is actually happening?

jimHJJ(...just because we don't like what we see doesn't make it less of the truth...)

Well, there goes the thread. And I am not surprised either. I wouldn't expect this(you fill in the blank) to have one shred of sympathy for a poor black person left behind and abandoned with no food, water, or electricity. All this(you fill in the blanks) can find to do is point out the negative that a minority of the population is doing. God forbid nothing happens to you while you live in your ivory tower.

markw
09-03-2005, 01:20 AM
First off, I think he term "looting" should be reserved for those "liberating" non- essential items such as electronics, jewelery and other non life sustaining, non perishable items. I'd put in armloads of sneakers with this also along with many other items.

Life sustaining items such as food, medicine and the like (and, in this day and age, pampers) should not be included in that category. I'd suggest a new phrase such as maintainng eone's existance, but the media seems to be in love with looting.

...which segues into the next area... the media. Remember, the press that is a business out to sell a product and make money, not a public service. Remember also that it's a "free" press, not under any legal obligation to be fair and unbiased.

I honestly believer that the media plays a large role in the polarization of races in this country. Sensationalism sells and, let's face it, nothing sells more than something that tugs at our emotions. And, one of the easiest emotons to trigger is hate. Show people something they can get worked up about and give them someone to blame and you've got a sale. How many warm, fuzzy stories warrant a front page splash?

Right now, since most of NO is poor and black, it's easy to play the race card and say that help was denied because they are poor and black. They totally seem to ignore that most of the city is well below sea level and depends on man made levees for it's existance, multiple warnings were given by both the local and national officials, (80% of the city DID act on them and boogied), why the local government didn't move the now flooded school bus's to high ground, much less pressed into service evacuating needy)

But, it's easy to play the race card when most of the victims just happen to be black and the current adimnistration is an easy target. ...totally ignoring that nature can be a real mother-(shut yo mouth!) when it wants to be and that this may be the worst natural catastrophy to ever hit this country. The logistics involved here are staggering ... and the people shooting the rescurers don't exactly help the racial issue, either.

The media loves to play up the race situation, as it it's not always lurkng beneath the surfacs and, I truly believe, that most of us are trying to bury it deeper and deeper with each succeeding generation.

Oh, I'm lily white and burn merely looking at the sun. My wife is Brasilian and when going to her family's functions (in Newark), every color in the book is represented. ...and they make killer caipirinhas.

trollgirl
09-04-2005, 12:32 PM
I'm glad I did not leave AR entirely. I have spent a lot of time at that other site, and found it to have zero tolerance for candid opinions. I just had two threAds locKed down, and one of them within SECONDS of my posting it. How the hell do they do that? Anyway, I've quit 'em, and you'll just have to keep putting up with Laz for a long time...

On the subject at hand, I read a piece on the web today which used terms like "insurgents" and described the city as "a little Somalia". Seems american troops are being deployed in New Orleans with a combat mindset. Granted, there are some baddies running loose, but this turn of events disturbs me deeply.

If you give to the relief effort, give to the Salvation Army, not the American Red Cross. I buy that opinion at a price.

Laz

PS I won't name them, but I've left a hint in caps, above...

shokhead
09-04-2005, 01:14 PM
A combat mindset is just what you need with snipers and such not afraid to fire.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-04-2005, 01:24 PM
A combat mindset is just what you need with snipers and such not afraid to fire.

Actually this is the last thing they need. Imagine having a hurricane hit you, your flooded out, barely escaped with your life, your starving, dehydrated, poor, and no way to get out. Imagine being sick, can't walk, need medication, water is all around you, and its toxic to you. You have been through all of this and haven't had anything to eat in four or five days. Only the poor and desolate were left in New Oleans, a small part were gang members, but the majority just happened to be just average, ordinary poor folks. What happen down there should not have happen at all. What a tragety, what a travesty.

Woochifer
09-04-2005, 02:57 PM
Sad part about all this is that I don't even think that the reporters and editors are even aware of the double standards that exist. The AP is one of the more responsible news gathering organizations out there with very high verification standards on their reporting, so it's disheartening to see stuff like this fall through the cracks at their end. This is not like the cable news channels and talk radio where irresponsible and inflammatory reporting are part of the way they operate.

Just so you know Kanye West talked about this exact issue during NBC's hurricane relief concert on Friday. (Other remarks got cut out by the network censors for the west coast rebroadcast.)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-critic4sep04,0,6092967,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines


Because he is widely seen by critics and industry tastemakers as an influential spokesman for the American black experience, you could feel the strain of his attempt to fulfill that role — to step beyond the generic comments of other celebrities Friday to reflect on the horror being experienced by the flood victims.

You could disagree with his views, but you couldn't deny his passion.

"I hate the way they portray us in the media," West began his remarks during the hourlong program, on which he was one of several celebrities, including Hilary Swank and Leonardo DiCaprio, who spoke between musical numbers. "If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family, it says they're looking for food."

Resident Loser
09-06-2005, 12:21 PM
. God forbid nothing happens to you while you live in your ivory tower.

...God forbid anything does, I won't be pointing fingers and blaming everyone on the face of the planet for my predicament or my lot in life!

Wanna' start at ground zero...Do you really want to avoid the facts and face the real reasons?...Do you really want to bring up the hypertensive, overweight, diabetic grandma who has to raise the nine grandchildren because their parents are nowhere to be found...or is that merely an example of the non-traditional family you often speak of? And why is grammy so sick to begin with? Could it have something to do with the fact that under the best conditions she eats cr@p? And don't give me the healthcare rhetoric, we've been there AND done that!

.Then of course we have the opportunistic and strident types who at every opportunity invoke the "racism" argument...just have to keep fannin' those flames...how else could they possibly justify their self-annointed and aggrandizing position of "leadership"? "Look at the conditions they were forced to live in" they say...Did the sports dome or convention center look like a pig-sty BEFORE being turned into an emergency shelter? Is it always someone elses responsibility? Always looking for the bail-out...

Why do so many live hand-to-mouth? No one saves even pennies for the rainy day? Any income is treated like a windfall with little or no thought for future needs. Why are there poor and unemployed? Simple, you don't work and there's no money other than what is provided by the state...you don't go to school and just look for what Rev. Ike used to call "pie-in-the -sky"...just babies havin' babies and a continuance of the same old cycle of self-perpetuating ignorance and poverty...but it's the government's fault...or the media's fault...or whitey's fault...yep, we go in and dump our trash which attracts the rats and spread other vermin and disease...it's a vast white conspiracy...

And before anyone accuses me of stereotyping, I have lived or worked in some of the worst parts of NYC and have witnessed from an early age of what I speak...from the black men who worked at the Domino "sugar house" across the street from the bar my uncle worked in...Learned how to shoot pool from 'em on Friday and Saturday nights...Stetson hats, Florsheim shoes, top-shelf liquor and dead broke by Monday...Williamsburg, Bed-Stuy, lower East side including alphabet city, West side, Harlem, South Jamaica...worked in 'em all...you didn't need ladders to do your job...just scale the mountains of garbage...and whether north or south still got them grandmothers tending the children of absentee parents...

And, I'm sure there are those who will ask what this has to do with the current situation or accuse me of going off on some self-serving and disjointed diatribe, but it's merely a small example of realities that exist, because they are allowed to exist and prosper within the affected communities...when that untenable situation is subjected to something like Katrina, everything goes right in the dumper. So, what does it have to do with it?

Only, everything.

jimHJJ(...I can dance all night, where do you wanna' go with this?...)

bjornb17
09-06-2005, 08:31 PM
You are absolutely correct G. It seems that no one wants to stick their hand out first though. I am lucky, while most of my family is carribean latino, my grandmother is european white, some cousins are black or mixed black, and I have some white second cousins. I thought the whole world was this multicultural and got along like my family did. Boy was I wrong!

Multiculturalism is fun!

My mom is German, my dad is American... my girlfriend is Mexican, my sister in law is from the Dominican Republican, my brother's fiance is from Taiwan.

Whenever we all get together, its like a multicultural funfest :)

There will always be closed-minded people out there, just don't get too bothered by them.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-07-2005, 03:25 AM
...God forbid anything does, I won't be pointing fingers and blaming everyone on the face of the planet for my predicament or my lot in life!

Wanna' start at ground zero...Do you really want to avoid the facts and face the real reasons?...Do you really want to bring up the hypertensive, overweight, diabetic grandma who has to raise the nine grandchildren because their parents are nowhere to be found...or is that merely an example of the non-traditional family you often speak of? And why is grammy so sick to begin with? Could it have something to do with the fact that under the best conditions she eats cr@p? And don't give me the healthcare rhetoric, we've been there AND done that!

.Then of course we have the opportunistic and strident types who at every opportunity invoke the "racism" argument...just have to keep fannin' those flames...how else could they possibly justify their self-annointed and aggrandizing position of "leadership"? "Look at the conditions they were forced to live in" they say...Did the sports dome or convention center look like a pig-sty BEFORE being turned into an emergency shelter? Is it always someone elses responsibility? Always looking for the bail-out...

Why do so many live hand-to-mouth? No one saves even pennies for the rainy day? Any income is treated like a windfall with little or no thought for future needs. Why are there poor and unemployed? Simple, you don't work and there's no money other than what is provided by the state...you don't go to school and just look for what Rev. Ike used to call "pie-in-the -sky"...just babies havin' babies and a continuance of the same old cycle of self-perpetuating ignorance and poverty...but it's the government's fault...or the media's fault...or whitey's fault...yep, we go in and dump our trash which attracts the rats and spread other vermin and disease...it's a vast white conspiracy...

And before anyone accuses me of stereotyping, I have lived or worked in some of the worst parts of NYC and have witnessed from an early age of what I speak...from the black men who worked at the Domino "sugar house" across the street from the bar my uncle worked in...Learned how to shoot pool from 'em on Friday and Saturday nights...Stetson hats, Florsheim shoes, top-shelf liquor and dead broke by Monday...Williamsburg, Bed-Stuy, lower East side including alphabet city, West side, Harlem, South Jamaica...worked in 'em all...you didn't need ladders to do your job...just scale the mountains of garbage...and whether north or south still got them grandmothers tending the children of absentee parents...

And, I'm sure there are those who will ask what this has to do with the current situation or accuse me of going off on some self-serving and disjointed diatribe, but it's merely a small example of realities that exist, because they are allowed to exist and prosper within the affected communities...when that untenable situation is subjected to something like Katrina, everything goes right in the dumper. So, what does it have to do with it?

Only, everything.

jimHJJ(...I can dance all night, where do you wanna' go with this?...)

This is nothing more than typical bigoted trash not worthy of a response. If we listen to your bit of stupidity, all black people don't work, wear stereotypical ghetto clothes, and have the education of a 10 year old. This post is trash, but considering the author, this is probably the best he can do.

Dance with yourself....

shokhead
09-07-2005, 05:42 AM
Multiculturalism is fun!

My mom is German, my dad is American... my girlfriend is Mexican, my sister in law is from the Dominican Republican, my brother's fiance is from Taiwan.

Whenever we all get together, its like a multicultural funfest :)

There will always be closed-minded people out there, just don't get too bothered by them.


Multiculturalism is not fun,not at all. US cant handle it. It makes for far more problems then not.

GMichael
09-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Multiculturalism is not fun,not at all. US cant handle it. It makes for far more problems then not.

Multiculturalism IS America. There's no way around that. Our country is based on it. We can either deal with it, or stick our heads in the sand.
Not only can we handle it, but it's what has made us so strong. We have the best of the best from everywhere in the world. But we also have the worst of the worst to go with that. They come hand in hand. That brings us some very huge problems, but it also brings us the greatest minds to solve those problems.
Good and bad are everywhere. There are good and bad people of every color. What we tend to do is see the bad in others and ignore the good. Or write the good off as a byproduct of something bad we have seen "the other side" doing. So we build up an image in our head of the "other guy" as unrealistically bad. We have to see this for what it is, normal behavior, and understand that we are more alike than we had first thought.
Just something to think about the next time you see someone different than yourself and look down on them.

Resident Loser
09-07-2005, 07:02 AM
This is nothing more than typical bigoted trash not worthy of a response. If we listen to your bit of stupidity, all black people don't work, wear stereotypical ghetto clothes, and have the education of a 10 year old. This post is trash, but considering the author, this is probably the best he can do.

Dance with yourself....

Tut, tut, ta-da-rut...once again you miss the point...big time! If we listen to YOUR myopic rendition of what was posted, that's when we get we the trash...but then again, generalizing, oversimplification and hype is what I would expect from you and those of your ilk.

Each individual is responsible for their own safety, health and well-being...expecting someone else to take up the slack is akin to the "forty acres and a mule" that some folks have been waiting generations for..."they ain't helpin' us"...just who is "they"...

Then comes family responsibility for their own...without a more "traditional" family structure, that safety-net is nonexistent...babies havin' babies and single-parent or non-existent-parent families lack the required tools to do the job, and yet that is what passes for "tradition" in many households. If we start off in a negative position, it's makes the struggle just that more difficult.

Then comes the local government...it is THEIR responsibility to help safeguard and aid the local population...Rudy Giuliani took the lead on 9/11, someone was there for us...where was the mayor of N.O.? Other than his echo the "why aren't they helpin' us" I saw little of him. Where were the first responders? FEMA isn't structured to take their place and even the local police seemed to have thrown up their hands in the face of this calamity.

Then there is the state's responsibility. The city was built below sea level hundreds of years ago, were was the plan? This was in the cards, and EVERYBODY knew it. If it was the ultimate responsibility of the Feds and the Army Corps of Engineers to augment the levee system, where were the local and state legislators? Why weren't the squeaky' wheels oiled? Were there ANY squeaky wheels to begin with?

You would think by all the complaints of the Feds "doing nothing" that there is some clandestine series of warehouses, stockpiling every conceivable need and all within walking distance of any potential major catastrophe(of course, only if the population is white)...this ain't OZ and I see no ruby slippers...nowadays, most businesses don't keep more stock than they need based on usage projections and the government is no different...coupled with the "downsizing" and centralizing of distribution points it takes time...for some reason we as a nation labor under the false impression that we can expect "same day delivery" under all circumstances...even FedEx can't accomplish that.

Every person is complicit in their own equation...it's one he!! of a stretch to jump from a lack of personal responsibility to George Bush(et al) is(are) a racist(s)...yet that's what we hear...

And, FYI, Sir Talksalot...If I were a bigot, I could give a sh!t less what happens...fact is while the things I say may be painful to hear, someone has to say them. There are leaders in the black community who say the same things, and are completely ignored in favor of the martyr-types who perpetuate the status quo and the "pie-in-the-sky" mentality.

jimHJJ(...you're either part of the solution or part of the problem...)

shokhead
09-07-2005, 07:21 AM
Multiculturalism IS America. There's no way around that. Our country is based on it. We can either deal with it, or stick our heads in the sand.
Not only can we handle it, but it's what has made us so strong. We have the best of the best from everywhere in the world. But we also have the worst of the worst to go with that. They come hand in hand. That brings us some very huge problems, but it also brings us the greatest minds to solve those problems.
Good and bad are everywhere. There are good and bad people of every color. What we tend to do is see the bad in others and ignore the good. Or write the good off as a byproduct of something bad we have seen "the other side" doing. So we build up an image in our head of the "other guy" as unrealistically bad. We have to see this for what it is, normal behavior, and understand that we are more alike than we had first thought.
Just something to think about the next time you see someone different than yourself and look down on them.

I look down on nobody. I have worked around it for 25 years and it dont work. This melting pot is crap. Its a nice thing to think it works and its nice to want it to work and most want it to work but my head is way above the sand and it doesnt work,sorry. People of different color just cant get along in the long run.

GMichael
09-07-2005, 07:29 AM
I look down on nobody. I have worked around it for 25 years and it dont work. This melting pot is crap. Its a nice thing to think it works and its nice to want it to work and most want it to work but my head is way above the sand and it doesnt work,sorry. People of different color just cant get along in the long run.

Don't? Can't? Doesn't? Crap?

Tisk tisk tisk.

All we can do is try.

shokhead
09-07-2005, 07:31 AM
Don't? Can't? Doesn't? Crap?

Tisk tisk tisk.

All we can do is try.

Di I wish it would work? Of course,its here.
Did it work before? Yep.
Now,its just a different word with signs i cant read. Now that i think about it,i guess some of it bothers me. The part where non-americans come to the US and instead of adapting to our ways,WE have to change to there ways. I guess that does bother me. I dont know what that makes me but i cant help it.

GMichael
09-07-2005, 07:38 AM
How soon we forget:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to
breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming
shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-lost to me

dean_martin
09-07-2005, 07:47 AM
Then there is the state's responsibility. The city was built below sea level hundreds of years ago, were was the plan? This was in the cards, and EVERYBODY knew it. If it was the ultimate responsibility of the Feds and the Army Corps of Engineers to augment the levee system, where were the local and state legislators? Why weren't the squeaky' wheels oiled? Were there ANY squeaky wheels to begin with?



A little fact-checking is in order here. The article below touches on the million acres of wetlands lost in south LA and the state and local officials' attempts to save them since the 1980s. There's a lot more info on how the wetlands used to serve as a buffer from hurricanes for New Orleans and other parts of LA if you care to look into it.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/05/Worldandnation/Katrina_offers_lesson.shtml

And before you go and characterize this as a local problem, remember the MS River and the Port of New Orleans are/were vital to INTERSTATE commerce. Read your US Constitution regarding US Congress's responsibility for interstate commerce.

Also, TtT (or someone) has already posted another article or made reference to the fact that New Orleans wasn't always below sea-level.

I'll spare you my own comments on your rhetoric and just provide the facts.

Here's "Brownie's" speech at a hurricane conference in Florida last year detailing FEMA's pre-positioning for immediate response to Hurricane Isabel so that you can compare that preparedness to FEMA's preparedness (or lack thereof) for Katrina.

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm

You probably wonder where your fed tax dollars go, right? I mean you seam like the type who hates the fact that your tax dollars go to welfare and food stamp programs, right? Well, consider how much of your tax dollars went to Homeland Security and consider that FEMA is under Homeland Security. My personal opinion is that we didn't get the federal response we paid for. Isn't that what conservatives want? If we have to spend tax dollars on something, don't we want efficiency, readiness and competency? I shouldn't have to remind you of your own basic conservative tenets.

shokhead
09-07-2005, 07:47 AM
GM,I never said that.LOL. In fact i'm for a 5 year halt for anyone and everyone coming into the US. We need a break. We are filling up faster then we can take care of everyone and we are starting to take to much care of outsiders and not the US born.

GMichael
09-07-2005, 08:01 AM
Di I wish it would work? Of course,its here.
Did it work before? Yep.
Now,its just a different word with signs i cant read. Now that i think about it,i guess some of it bothers me. The part where non-americans come to the US and instead of adapting to our ways,WE have to change to there ways. I guess that does bother me. I dont know what that makes me but i cant help it.

I understand how you feel. I'd be a liar to say that I've never felt the same. Change can be a hard thing to deal with.

It only makes you human. You can't help that. But you can help what you do with those feelings. We used to be THEM a few hundres years ago. And this country changed to fit our needs. If it didn't, we might all be in T-P's. Well, maybe not, but you get what I mean.

I'm not trying to say that everything is perfect. Way far from it. But we'll be better off if we put our efforts into fixing the problems instead of blaming them on others.

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 08:14 AM
Stereotypes often have a basis in fact - we all know it.

Why are all Irish looked at as drunks? Well, because they are.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. And don't EVEN get me started on those Poles!

There are cultural differences between races. Sometimes within races. A tip of the hat to Jim for saying what he really thinks. After all T you don't hesitate to single out whites. So let's have a fair discussion here.

Laz I'm sorry there was A problem somewhere else. They just don't allow politics, period. I'm oK with that. I mean, look at us here: before we all discussed the unifing issues of the day (!) I didn't know that RCA is a commie, Wooch is a long haired hippie, Jim is a bigot, Dean is a lawyer ( :D ), kex is a pussilaminous two country-er, or T is a militant one-worlder.

Talk about self discovery! I found out I'm a right-wing imperialist homophobic moron.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

:rofl:

Pete

GMichael
09-07-2005, 08:21 AM
GM,I never said that.LOL. In fact i'm for a 5 year halt for anyone and everyone coming into the US. We need a break. We are filling up faster then we can take care of everyone and we are starting to take to much care of outsiders and not the US born.

But my wife is from the Philippines. I'd miss her if we shipped her back. Can we make at lease one exception and let her stay?

shokhead
09-07-2005, 08:24 AM
But my wife is from the Philippines. I'd miss her if we shipped her back. Can we make at lease one exception and let her stay?

Never said anything about shipping anyone out so yes,i will let her stay.

dean_martin
09-07-2005, 08:49 AM
Stereotypes often have a basis in fact - we all know it.

Why are all Irish looked at as drunks? Well, because they are.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. And don't EVEN get me started on those Poles!

There are cultural differences between races. Sometimes within races. A tip of the hat to Jim for saying what he really thinks. After all T you don't hesitate to single out whites. So let's have a fair discussion here.

Laz I'm sorry there was A problem somewhere else. They just don't allow politics, period. I'm oK with that. I mean, look at us here: before we all discussed the unifing issues of the day (!) I didn't know that RCA is a commie, Wooch is a long haired hippie, Jim is a bigot, Dean is a lawyer ( :D ), kex is a pussilaminous two country-er, or T is a militant one-worlder.

Talk about self discovery! I found out I'm a right-wing imperialist homophobic moron.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

:rofl:

Pete

Hey Pete!

Despite the differences, we all have a few things in common or we wouldn't be here. We all like our hometheater or music systems, music and/or film. Oh, and we all like to vent and provoke periodocally.

This is completely off topic, but I was reflecting on some of my trips to New Orleans and I remembered the first time I wandered the French Quarter by myself. It was a Sunday afternoon when I was 14 - probably in 1983 or '84. I turned off Bourbon St. and found a street with several art galleries. I went into one and found a display of John Lennon lithographs. A few reprints were for sale but the majority were originals there for a short time before being shipped to a gallery somewhere else. I haven't heard much about the New Orleans art scene in the news. I always look forward to the new Jazz Fest poster each year and the crawfish/seafood festival posters from all over Louisiana are some of the most colorful and unique art forms you can find.

Resident Loser
09-07-2005, 09:14 AM
...your first referenced article only shows how man has altered the natural order of things and is now paying the price. Just like the 'glades, screw up the environment to provide more land for developers or industry...or those golf courses...after all tomorrow is another day.

Interstate commerce? As per the Constitution, Congress regulates it. As far as I can see the Port of New Orleans is just another corporation, replete with executives and board members...no direct governmental ties other than listing the ACE as a member of the consortium of related industries. I believe it would take an act of Congress to "nationalize" or otherwise change that relationship and we all know how swiftly government plods. However, not being a constitutional lawyer, my interpretation may be somewhat simplistic.

And while we're providing links:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125346/nav/tap2

http://www.slate.com/id/2125229/nav/tap2

Insofar as getting what we pay for, eight-hundred dollar toilet seats and hundred dollar screwdrivers seemto be de riguer with the feds, so what else is new?

'Smatter of fact, early on and during hard times, I was using food stamps. When I began receiving paychecks(but was still eligible for the coupons) the amount that it cost to purchase them changed dramatically. There was a $5 difference in that price and the amount of buying power the stamps offered. An amount certainly not worth the trouble and paperwork involved in continuing in the program. Coupled with that fact and the feeling of unease of being on the dole everytime I used them, I stopped.

My "conservative tenets"? We should be horse-whipping most of the politicians and bureaucrats on both sides of the aisle for the sh!t they pull...but that's another story...

jimHJJ(...so please, spare me...)

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 09:20 AM
Yes Dean I know, I was only poking fun. Rereading it I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. Sometimes I don't know when to say when!

Who knows how much invaluable art was lost. And all those old buildings! NO is such a disaster.

Pete

GMichael
09-07-2005, 09:28 AM
Never said anything about shipping anyone out so yes,i will let her stay.

Thanks, you're the best.

Resident Loser
09-07-2005, 09:31 AM
...

Talk about self discovery! I found out I'm a right-wing imperialist homophobic moron.Pete

...It's like I have a brother!

jimHJJ(...such a small world...)

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 09:34 AM
Oh, oh, do I get to be a bigot too?

It is sooo great to be an angry white man nowadays. We have books written about us! :D

Wait that was "Stupid white men", wasn't it? Is that politically correct racism?

Aaag. I feel like discriminating against someone. Where's an Italian pizza maker when you need one?

Pete

Resident Loser
09-07-2005, 10:18 AM
Oh, oh, do I get to be a bigot too?Pete

...yeah, but I'm still one up on ya...I'm a dumb polack...must get beer and kielbasa...must get beer and kielbasa...

Italian pizza-maker? Heck, we got a full-blown Jewish guy doin' kosher pies that-a-way and Orientals(WARNING: not a PC term) cookin' tostada synchronadas t'other...it's (con)fusion cooking at it's best!

I don't know if this will translate well to the printed form, but here's a bit of non-PC humor...

Didja' hear about the hispanic fireman?

His wife had twins...named one Jose' and the other hose "b"...

One of my faves is left over from the days when Michael Jackson was still a black fella and took the Pepsi challenge a bit too far resulting in setting himself on fire...

What's Michael Jackson's favorite charity?

The ignited Negro college fund.

And on that bit of banal humor...

jimHJJ(...I'll take my leave...must get beer and kielbasa...)

dean_martin
09-07-2005, 10:24 AM
...your first referenced article only shows how man has altered the natural order of things and is now paying the price. Just like the 'glades, screw up the environment to provide more land for developers or industry...or those golf courses...after all tomorrow is another day.

Interstate commerce? As per the Constitution, Congress regulates it. As far as I can see the Port of New Orleans is just another corporation, replete with executives and board members...no direct governmental ties other than listing the ACE as a member of the consortium of related industries. I believe it would take an act of Congress to "nationalize" or otherwise change that relationship and we all know how swiftly government plods. However, not being a constitutional lawyer, my interpretation may be somewhat simplistic.

And while we're providing links:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125346/nav/tap2

http://www.slate.com/id/2125229/nav/tap2

Insofar as getting what we pay for, eight-hundred dollar toilet seats and hundred dollar screwdrivers seemto be de riguer with the feds, so what else is new?

'Smatter of fact, early on and during hard times, I was using food stamps. When I began receiving paychecks(but was still eligible for the coupons) the amount that it cost to purchase them changed dramatically. There was a $5 difference in that price and the amount of buying power the stamps offered. An amount certainly not worth the trouble and paperwork involved in continuing in the program. Coupled with that fact and the feeling of unease of being on the dole everytime I used them, I stopped.

My "conservative tenets"? We should be horse-whipping most of the politicians and bureaucrats on both sides of the aisle for the sh!t they pull...but that's another story...

jimHJJ(...so please, spare me...)

OK, I see we're not too far apart here. I remember after Hurricane Ivan our mayor had to dog-cuss our governor who in turn had to pressure FEMA to get any assistance to us. Tom Ridge, who was head of Homeland Security at the time visited our area and described his department's function through FEMA in response to natural disasters. It's there for support and even provisions. Response was slow. We didn't have ice or power and at times water for over a week. Fortunately, I was prepared with batteries, flashlights, bottled water, ice chests and charcoal and I drove 60 miles one-way to get a generator to run a fridge at my parents house so the whole family could use it for necessities. The thing that helped the most was the percolating coffee pot my in-laws gave me. Every morning I fired off my grill and made everyone coffee. After about 3 days, FEMA showed up with bottled water, ice, and MREs. Then power co. trucks from other states came rolling in.

Recently, Hurricane Dennis came through and all the relief efforts that were late arriving for Ivan were here the next day. I thought the coordinating and pre-staging had improved. But I see now that it's hit or miss. There's enough blame to go around, but I get a little irritated when the local mayor gets ALL the criticism. Our mayor was a hero after Ivan not because of the help or plan he provided, but because of the outside help he was finally able to get. (We weren't underwater, we don't have the pop. of NO and we weren't confronted with many of the problems that NO is facing. It's not a fair comparison, but it's what I have observed and experienced.)


Congress can do just about whatever it wants if it affects interstate commerce. The Civil Rights Act was applied to privately owned hotels and restaraunts by virtue of the interstate commerce clause because travelers from other states stayed at the hotels and ate at the restaraunts. Obviously, the interstate commerce clause is broadly applied. Congress could change the course of the MS River if it wanted because it's used for interstate commerce. That's why federal dollars have been spent on it in the past. But, you're right, Congress does these things in the name of "regulating" commerce and I used the term "responsibility". I think they go hand-in-hand though. If Congress needs to alter the MS to make it more navagible for transporting goods, then it should do it in way that doesn't destroy the environment or create potential danger. I thought the article I posted showed how at one time the wetlands served as a buffer for NO, but due to tinkering with the MS, those wetlands disappeared and it showed that local officials have been trying to save them since the 80s. My point was that the city of NO was not always in such peril. I remember taking a guided tour of the Superdome in the mid 80's and the guide showed us the markings on the columns where the dome had sunk. The city has not always been as far below sea-level as it is now. Even so, it's used nationally as a place of import for coffee, sugar, etc. I heard that 80% of our coffee comes through NO. That seems high, but we'll see if the price of coffee goes up. We've already felt the importance of SE LA at the gas pumps. (At least that's what we've been told.)

BTW, my wife, newborn son and I were on WIC for awhile and I was working for the federal gov't at the time as a file clerk. My wife went back to work as soon as she was able, but we continued to qualify for public assistance. Those were rough times. We had to share an apartment in Northern VA with 2 other guys which was awkward. I've always thought it was a little ironic that you could work for the gov't and still qualify for gov't assistance.

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 10:31 AM
Before everyone gets their britches in a bundle consider:

I KNOW FOR A FACT minorities have jokes about white people. Yes, some have leaked the secret. I am sworn to secrecy.

Not only that, I have Polish and Irish blood. If ANYONE deserves to get upset about certain ethnic jokes....

Beer and kielbasa. For the Irish blood, just beer'll be fine.

Pete

dean_martin
09-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Yes Dean I know, I was only poking fun. Rereading it I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. Sometimes I don't know when to say when!

Who knows how much invaluable art was lost. And all those old buildings! NO is such a disaster.

Pete

No feathers ruffled here. I was just noting the things we have in common. I thought I better point them out because some of our comrades are ready to throw in the towel on the melting pot idea. These poor souls are ready to sand down the words on the Statue of Liberty, or chisel in some exceptions. Don't give up!

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 12:17 PM
Dean,

Ok, that I get.

The big issue I see is a lack of understanding each other, and a deep mistrust on all sides.

How can we possibly come to an understanding without plain talk? Just like this thread. I honestly believe these kind of conversations are so very vital to our long term goal of unity as Americans.

We shouldn't give up! Balkinization is a HORRIBLE thing. It makes a "normal" civil war a thing of kindness.

I believe we should continue to be a beacon of hope to the world, yes.

Pete

GMichael
09-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Dean,

Ok, that I get.

The big issue I see is a lack of understanding each other, and a deep mistrust on all sides.

How can we possibly come to an understanding without plain talk? Just like this thread. I honestly believe these kind of conversations are so very vital to our long term goal of unity as Americans.

We shouldn't give up! Balkinization is a HORRIBLE thing. It makes a "normal" civil war a thing of kindness.

I believe we should continue to be a beacon of hope to the world, yes.

Pete

Balkinization?

You know...... I'm just a simple kinda guy. Why do you have to make me look up words like Balkinization? Although, I may start telling people that I've been a victum of balkinization. Much better than saying "brain dead."

piece-it pete
09-07-2005, 12:36 PM
I see I misspelled it - D'oh!

I don't hesitate to conjugate gigantuan words here 'cause if you're here talking you are by definition wery wery smart :D .

Pete

GMichael
09-07-2005, 01:07 PM
I see I misspelled it - D'oh!

I don't hesitate to conjugate gigantuan words here 'cause if you're here talking you are by definition wery wery smart :D .

Pete

Now that's just brutal.

markw
09-07-2005, 01:26 PM
Back when, proiple sould come over here and strive to adapt into the resident cultuer, which mens learning to speak the language of the land. Nobody ever stoipped them from enjoyinfg things form their lands. That's where Christmas t rees vcame from, not to mention taco and various other goodies that have become part of the mainstream.

And, the business was conducted in one common language. That's the cement that glued this country together. We all undeerstod each other.

The Polish* came, brought their kelbasa, funny costumes and, by the second generation, they were conversing in native English. Momma and poppa may have had problems with English but their kids didn't. Nor did they force Americans to learn their language. they forcedtheir kids to learn english to become part of this country.

Now somewhere along the line it was decided that learning English was "too hard" and too much to ask of them. We started to bend the rules to accomodate people who did not speak our language. now, with this encouragement, more and more came in and, unable to speak the language and blend in, stuck to their own communities, creating their own business's which, for all intents and purposes, exists totally out of the mainstream.



Ever wonder how many different languages we now have to translate documents into? A LOT! Do you know hthat a driver's test andthe manuals to study from are available in several languages? But, street signs are only in English and the police are not required to speak every language.

I see this in Newark. Therre's such a Brasilian and Portugese population that doesn't speak English that I know some third generation kids there that don't speak English and many that do, speak it only barely.

Now, don't even get me started on Spanish.

Point blank, you come here, you learn the language. Everyone else did and still does. The Indians, Asians, Europeans did and still do. And, they have no problem maintaining their cultural identity.

One thing about New Jersey. It defines multicultural.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-07-2005, 02:42 PM
Tut, tut, ta-da-rut...once again you miss the point...big time! If we listen to YOUR myopic rendition of what was posted, that's when we get we the trash...but then again, generalizing, oversimplification and hype is what I would expect from you and those of your ilk.

Maybe I missed the point because you do not convey it well.


Each individual is responsible for their own safety, health and well-being...expecting someone else to take up the slack is akin to the "forty acres and a mule" that some folks have been waiting generations for..."they ain't helpin' us"...just who is "they"...

So a sick old person is responsible for pushing themselves through 8ft or more of floodwater? A poor person with no electricity, water, food, dry clothes, and no place to go is responsible for themselves in a flood? This is stupid, and considering the source, on par.

The people who are asking for forty acres and a mule were dragged here by people just like you. They were sold, beaten, killed, maimed, seperated from their families, and treated like a commodity by people with a simular mindset as you have.


Then comes family responsibility for their own...without a more "traditional" family structure, that safety-net is nonexistent...babies havin' babies and single-parent or non-existent-parent families lack the required tools to do the job, and yet that is what passes for "tradition" in many households. If we start off in a negative position, it's makes the struggle just that more difficult.

Save this crap for Ozzie and Harriet. Your so called "traditional" family has never been the way the majority of the people in this country have been raised. I am one of the few people I know that grew up with a mother and father. Family is what you make it. My best friend is considered family to me. The traditional family you speak of stands a 50% chance of being seperated by divorce, and once divorced, one part of that family usually ends up in poverty. So much for the dependence of the "traditional" family as a safety net.


Then comes the local government...it is THEIR responsibility to help safeguard and aid the local population...Rudy Giuliani took the lead on 9/11, someone was there for us...where was the mayor of N.O.? Other than his echo the "why aren't they helpin' us" I saw little of him. Where were the first responders? FEMA isn't structured to take their place and even the local police seemed to have thrown up their hands in the face of this calamity.

When you have 80% of your city flooded because of levee breaches, and hurricane damage over thousands of miles, this rises above what the local government can handle.

Rudy Giuliani could ride around his city freely after 9/11. Nagin could not without a boat. New York city as a whole wasn't flooded, only 16 acres(or thereabouts) was effected. 80% of New Oleans is under water. New York still had some sort of communication system after 9/11, New Oleans had none. The President visited the world trrade center site two days after the towers fell, it took him three days to FLY over New Oleans, and five days to set a single foot there. About 3.000 lives were lost in 9/11, it is estimated that around 10,000 may have lost their lives in New Oleans. To try and compare the two is stupid, but considering the source, par for the course.


Then there is the state's responsibility. The city was built below sea level hundreds of years ago, were was the plan? This was in the cards, and EVERYBODY knew it. If it was the ultimate responsibility of the Feds and the Army Corps of Engineers to augment the levee system, where were the local and state legislators? Why weren't the squeaky' wheels oiled? Were there ANY squeaky wheels to begin with?

Fact, New Oleans was not BUILT below sea level. It got below sea level as a result of sediment flow from the Mississippi river. Fact, the state legislature of Louisiana has been asking the federal government for decades for money to strengthen the levee's, after all, it is the Army Corps of Engineers responsibility to maintain them. They have continually had their funding cut. Get your facts straight, then debate.


You would think by all the complaints of the Feds "doing nothing" that there is some clandestine series of warehouses, stockpiling every conceivable need and all within walking distance of any potential major catastrophe(of course, only if the population is white)...this ain't OZ and I see no ruby slippers...nowadays, most businesses don't keep more stock than they need based on usage projections and the government is no different...coupled with the "downsizing" and centralizing of distribution points it takes time...for some reason we as a nation labor under the false impression that we can expect "same day delivery" under all circumstances...even FedEx can't accomplish that.

This government is capable of procuring anything they want, and placing it anywhere they want in hours. When hurricanes Charley, Frances, and Ivan hit Florida in 2004, FEMA was in there within 6 hours after the hurricanes writing checks, and providing relief. It just so happens that it was an election year, and Florida is the Presidents brothers state. If they could be that mobile and quick then, what happened in New Oleans?


Every person is complicit in their own equation...it's one he!! of a stretch to jump from a lack of personal responsibility to George Bush(et al) is(are) a racist(s)...yet that's what we hear...

Well total loser, Bush assigned Brown to be the head of FEMA. Brown had no experience in organizing diaster plans, nor relief plans. Brown failed for lack of experience, and Bush hired him knowing he had no experience. That makes Bush responsible. Don't give me this crap about personal responsibility, and then in the same sentence attempt to exonerate Bush. That is called hypocrisy, hyprocrite.


And, FYI, Sir Talksalot...If I were a bigot, I could give a sh!t less what happens...fact is while the things I say may be painful to hear, someone has to say them. There are leaders in the black community who say the same things, and are completely ignored in favor of the martyr-types who perpetuate the status quo and the "pie-in-the-sky" mentality.

Nobody wants to hear your white version of blackness total loser. You have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to be black in this country, no idea whatsoever. And please do not try and export your bigoted view onto black leaders. Bill Cosby is one man, and you are taking what he said totally out of context with the body of his comments. Alot of black leaders knew people like you would do that.


jimHJJ(...you're either part of the solution or part of the problem...)

Thanks for the quote Mr. Problem

Resident Loser
09-08-2005, 07:59 AM
Maybe I missed the point because you do not convey it well.

I wonder if anyone else had any difficulty...


So a sick old person is responsible for pushing themselves through 8ft or more of floodwater?

I didn't say THAT, now did I? Which is why I brought up "family responsibility" not "Ozzie and Harriet"...I'm beginning to see why you have comprehension difficulties...But on that note, it IS up to the individual to maintain their health and while no one is ruler of their destiny in that regard, eatin' chittlin's, greens and jowl or fried chicken isn't a step in the right direction...neither is a daily dose of Col. Macwendybelle's fine fare...nor is a beer-in-a-bag and a sack of chips...and no, it's not a stereotype, 'round the places I frequent it's called breakfast, 'ceptin' for the real small kid's it's Coke or Pepsi, but it's still in a bag, 'cause they wanna' be just like their shining role-models...who say's kid's don't learn by example?


A poor person with no electricity, water, food, dry clothes, and no place to go is responsible for themselves in a flood? This is stupid, and considering the source, on par.

Since when do conditions abrogate personal responsibility for self-survival? Electricity and more water is probably NOT what anyone in a flood really needs and dry clothing is a moot point...destination is simple: GET OUT OF THE WATER!!!


The people who are asking for forty acres and a mule were dragged here by people just like you. They were sold, beaten, killed, maimed, seperated from their families, and treated like a commodity by people with a simular mindset as you have.

People like me? Nope, sorry TtT...when all that started my forbears were probably vassals(or whatever) of the huns or cossacks or whoever over-ran and enslaved them...why not try searching for the derivation of the word "slavic"...

Geez, you are short on memory and long on denial...it was black Africans who enslaved other black Africans after conquering them...in fact, slavery still exists in Niger, Chad, Mali and Mauritania and the current slaves are descendents of those taken into bondage many, many years ago. They are beaten, raped and exist at them whim of their tribal chief masters. The earliest records go back to the seventh century, but the practice existed long before. While the government of Niger denies the existence of slaves, their language has the word "bellah" which means the slave caste. Sadly, it's not just an archaic word that no longer has a present day application.

Then of course we have the Portuguese who took the slaves in trade, and the French, and the English..."triangle trade" ring a bell...oh, sorry...forgot...short attention span...and of course, let's not forget the stateside "freemen" who also owned slaves...you wanna' start placing blame? Try western Africa around a thousand years earlier!

For anyone interested in some facts:

http://www.antislavery.org

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues05/sep05/niger.html

Other factual info can be had by doing a Google on "triangle trade", here's one site:

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm


Save this crap for Ozzie and Harriet. Your so called "traditional" family has never been the way the majority of the people in this country have been raised.

So you say...I think many would disagree.


I am one of the few people I know that grew up with a mother and father.

Well, I then I guess "traditional family" can fail on occassion...


The traditional family you speak of stands a 50% chance of being seperated by divorce, and once divorced, one part of that family usually ends up in poverty. So much for the dependence of the "traditional" family as a safety net.

And whose fault and of what excuse is any of that?


When you have 80% of your city flooded because of levee breaches, and hurricane damage over thousands of miles, this rises above what the local government can handle.

But, we're not talking about infrastructure. We are talking about evacuting and protecting people and THAT is a first responders and therefor a local problem.

In response to some of the rest of your missive, I'll refer you to the following previously posted links:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125346/nav/tap2

http://www.slate.com/id/2125229/nav/tap2


Well total loser, Bush assigned Brown to be the head of FEMA. Brown had no experience in organizing diaster plans, nor relief plans. Brown failed for lack of experience, and Bush hired him knowing he had no experience. That makes Bush responsible. Don't give me this crap about personal responsibility, and then in the same sentence attempt to exonerate Bush. That is called hypocrisy, hyprocrite.

You must be hangin' around the newsroom too much...your soundbite-mentality and penchant for spin, continues unhampered by fact...When exactly did I try to exonerate anyone? Here is my quote:

"Every person is complicit in their own equation...it's one he!! of a stretch to jump from a lack of personal responsibility to George Bush(et al) is(are) a racist(s)...yet that's what we hear..." I don't see the word exonerate, does anyone else? Excluding you of course.


And please do not try and export your bigoted view onto black leaders. Bill Cosby is one man, and you are taking what he said totally out of context with the body of his comments.

Funny, I think I've heard Rev. Calvin Butts and Louis Farrakhan say the same things, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I sorta' kinda' doubt it...

And here's a variant of the quote you thanked me for:

You are either part of the solutuion or you can make a bundle on continuing the problem...

jimHJJ(...and the "bundle" doesn't have to be cash...)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-08-2005, 11:18 AM
I wonder if anyone else had any difficulty..

We'll never know will we.




I didn't say THAT, now did I? Which is why I brought up "family responsibility" not "Ozzie and Harriet"...I'm beginning to see why you have comprehension difficulties...But on that note, it IS up to the individual to maintain their health and while no one is ruler of their destiny in that regard, eatin' chittlin's, greens and jowl or fried chicken isn't a step in the right direction...neither is a daily dose of Col. Macwendybelle's fine fare...nor is a beer-in-a-bag and a sack of chips...and no, it's not a stereotype, 'round the places I frequent it's called breakfast, 'ceptin' for the real small kid's it's Coke or Pepsi, but it's still in a bag, 'cause they wanna' be just like their shining role-models...who say's kid's don't learn by example?;

This is stereotypical crap. Not every black person eats soul food, but of course from your ivory tower you wouldn't know that. That is why you should stick to managing your life, and stop trying to tell me how black folks live. My god-parents who partly raised me are black, and I never ever saw them eat that crap. You don't know how they live, therefore your comments are ignorant, narrow minded, and disgusting to read. Maybe in the places you hang out people eat like that, but in the "normal" parts of America most black folks have given up eating that food except during the holidays. As I said before, nobody wants to read a white mans perspective of black life, you have no frame of reference to do so. I was raised by black parents, but I am Latino, I wouldn't even attempt to attach myself to the pain and suffering they have had to endure in the Jim Crow world they were raised in.




Since when do conditions abrogate personal responsibility for self-survival? Electricity and more water is probably NOT what anyone in a flood really needs and dry clothing is a moot point...destination is simple: GET OUT OF THE WATER!!!

And how do you propose they do that, magic hovercraft? Ride a horse? Twitch their noses and all of a sudden a boat appears? Where do they go after they get out of the water? In New Oleans they either ended in the deathdome, or the death convention center with no food and fresh water amoung the roving gangs.. Either you didn't pay attention to the images you saw on television, or you have never been through a diaster yourself. Either way, you have no idea whatsoever went on down there. You sat in your little ivory tower, with your narrow perspective, and ignorant ideas, and watch the television, which doesn't even come close to what you experience when you are on the ground there living this experience.




People like me? Nope, sorry TtT...when all that started my forbears were probably vassals(or whatever) of the huns or cossacks or whoever over-ran and enslaved them...why not try searching for the derivation of the word "slavic"...

Reading this is like watching roaches scramble when the lights are turned on. Your mentality is just like slave owners here in the country. They didn't care about slaves, they didn't understand them, and they tried to use tools they deemed superior to judge them.(religion and their brains) So don't give me that Slavic crap. Many european countries participated in the slave trade, perhaps Slavs did to. That is something that neither you, or I know.




Geez, you are short on memory and long on denial...it was black Africans who enslaved other black Africans after conquering them...in fact, slavery still exists in Niger, Chad, Mali and Mauritania and the current slaves are descendents of those taken into bondage many, many years ago. They are beaten, raped and exist at them whim of their tribal chief masters. The earliest records go back to the seventh century, but the practice existed long before. While the government of Niger denies the existence of slaves, their language has the word "bellah" which means the slave caste. Sadly, it's not just an archaic word that no longer has a present day application.

What africans did on their own soil was none of anyones business. If that existed, it was how they did things amoung african. Just because it was going on between africans doesn't mean it was okay for so called "moral" europeans to do it. When Europeans began bring them off the african continent that changed the dynamics completely. At least slavery was happening to them on their own soil, not in a country where they couldn't fight back, didn't know the culture, the people, or the religious beliefs.

Europeans should have stayed out of africa, but they did not. They went to africa, dragged the people here, denied them rights not only on a foreign soil, but in their country as well.


Then of course we have the Portuguese who took the slaves in trade, and the French, and the English..."triangle trade" ring a bell...oh, sorry...forgot...short attention span...and of course, let's not forget the stateside "freemen" who also owned slaves...you wanna' start placing blame? Try western Africa around a thousand years earlier!

What happen in western africa a thousand years ago, shouldn't have effected what happen 450-500 years ago in THIS country. All I see here from you is your justification spin, and the old stupid aurgument of " they were doing it before we started doing it to them". Europeans were suppose to be more "cultered" and "refined" than the negro's. They really weren't at all.


For anyone interested in some facts:

http://www.antislavery.org



http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues05/sep05/niger.html

Other factual info can be had by doing a Google on "triangle trade", here's one site:

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm




So you say...I think many would disagree.

Maybe you better read your history on families. Families for thousands of years consisted of mom, dad, grandparents, aunts, uncles,friends of the family etc. This family all lived within a 50 mile radius of one another. This was called the extended family. The nuclear family as you describe didn't really become popular until the 1950's. This became popular as a result of radio programs like Ozzie and Harriet, and other nuclear family types like them. This phenoma obiterated the "communal" family that existed before. As the children grew up, they moved off and began their own little nuclear family elsewhere. The concept of the extended family was totally lost, and as a result pressure was put on one person to give a life what used to take a whole extended family. That kind of pressure is what has lead to the current disfunctional family. One person cannot do what used to take many people.


Well, I then I guess "traditional family" can fail on occassion...

You are attempting to minimalized this. It is failing at a 50% rate. That is not "on occasion", and nothing I would depend on to support me.




And whose fault and of what excuse is any of that?[/quote[

Not placing blame, or fault. That is reality.



[quote]But, we're not talking about infrastructure. We are talking about evacuting and protecting people and THAT is a first responders and therefor a local problem.

Sorry, but there was no way that a local government can evacuate an entire city. No city in this country can do that. It takes the resources of the federal government to do that. First responders(FEMA) are supported by funds from the federal government. It has already been reported that the first responders were being trained for terrorism, not natural diasters as FEMA had originally been designated for. 31 or 39 departments within FEMA voice concerns that their training had more emphasis on terror emergency, and not enough for natural disaster.


In response to some of the rest of your missive, I'll refer you to the following previously posted links:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125346/nav/tap2

http://www.slate.com/id/2125229/nav/tap2

I am not really interested in links that support the same narrow view as you do.




You must be hangin' around the newsroom too much...your soundbite-mentality and penchant for spin, continues unhampered by fact...When exactly did I try to exonerate anyone? Here is my quote:

"Every person is complicit in their own equation...it's one he!! of a stretch to jump from a lack of personal responsibility to George Bush(et al) is(are) a racist(s)...yet that's what we hear..." I don't see the word exonerate, does anyone else? Excluding you of course.

A few blacks have mentioned publicly that they think Bush is racist. However, they don't speak for every one of the 35 million black people that live in this country. You are majoring in minors. In the end Bush is responsible. Any attempt to cover and spin the responsiblity away from him is pretty futile.

It wasn't the lack of personal responsiblity that created the mess in the aftermath of this hurricane. It was the mismanagement of the head of FEMA, a Bush appointee, that created this mess. If he had done the job in the way the former head of FEMA did in Florida, we wouldn't have seen one fourth the deaths we have here. The buck in this case stops directly at Bush, not the old, infirmed sick person living on a social security check. If a person should be responsible for their own health and welfare in a diaster, then FEMA, and any organization designed to provide relief in the aftermath of a natural disaster should be disbanded. The every man for themselves mentality doesn't do well in diasters this size.




Funny, I think I've heard Rev. Calvin Butts and Louis Farrakhan say the same things, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I sorta' kinda' doubt it...

Louis Farrakhan got rich off the backs of the black poor and misfortunate. He hates whites , which surprises me that you mentioned him. To him, you are a white devil. We should listen him? My mom and dad sure don't.

Reverend Calvin Butts is the pastor of the one of the oldest and prestigious black churches in this country. He is also a business man that has pitted the participants of New Yorks work experience programs against union employees, driving down pay and the well being of union workers. Butts takes money from the state, and then supports the states leaders(read George Pataki). He is a opportunist who would sacrifice a community(Harlem) just to line his own pockets with government grants. Neither of these two leaders you mention are very popular with black folks, not because of the message they deliver in public and in front of cameras, but because they have taken advantage of black folks to support their own extravagant lifestyles. This just goes to show that you know nothing about the black community, and therefore any comment on them from you is just a bunch of crap.


And here's a variant of the quote you thanked me for:

You are either part of the solutuion or you can make a bundle on continuing the problem...

jimHJJ(...and the "bundle" doesn't have to be cash...)

I bet visitors to your house are greeted with this very message hanging over your front door.

piece-it pete
09-08-2005, 12:58 PM
All the references to slavery all the time. Can't we all just get along? I was not a slave owner and it's very unlikely anyone reading this was a slave. And slavery is NOT a "white" phenomenon.

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Mexico.htm

Pete

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-08-2005, 04:09 PM
All the references to slavery all the time. Can't we all just get along? I was not a slave owner and it's very unlikely anyone reading this was a slave. And slavery is NOT a "white" phenomenon.

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Mexico.htm

Pete

Pete,
When referenced directly to slavery in this country, it WAS a white phenomenon. Only white people owned slaves in this country.

shokhead
09-09-2005, 03:57 AM
Could you add some white as not all white people owned someone,thanks.

markw
09-09-2005, 04:10 AM
Pete,
When referenced directly to slavery in this country, it WAS a white phenomenon. Only white people owned slaves in this country.While I respect your passion for the subject and agree that owning a slave is morally reprehensible, this statement is not quite correct...

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1006/article/1091

Please don't stoop to the same tactics of broad generalizations you accuse others of.

Resident Loser
09-09-2005, 04:45 AM
...simply do a google on "black slave owners" for even more...

But, then again, why should we suppose an investigation of any source that would upset preset notions would even be viewed...I mean, after all, two of the links I provided were dismissed sight unseen...imagine that, just because they support my position on the topography of New Orleans...

jimHJJ(...never realized geography is something one could have a position on...GPS notwithstanding...)

Resident Loser
09-09-2005, 06:13 AM
...Yogi Berra who said "You can observe alot by just watching"...

What rarefied planet do you live on? Having finger sandwiches and toast points at tea? Ivory tower? I'd suggest you look outside of your small circle of experience and get out in public more often...on the subject of food:

Ever been in the deep south? Sorry, pal but you can get that sort of food at nearly any restaurant below the Mason-Dixon line...and not just the hard-core local shacks(where the real stuff is) but in chains like Cracker Barrel, Po' Folks, Bob Evans and Perkins...Visit them any time but particularly on any Sunday and you will find many black folks in their Sunday-best chowing down on deep-fried catfish, chicken-fried steak and fried chicken, okra, greens...all the fixin's...geez, I'm gettin' hungry...

Way up north here in the Big Apple, there are countless places that serve it, the most famous being Sylvia's in Harlem...love that sweet potato pie...even where I work in Queens, you can get any number of variants of salty and fatty(read:unhealthful) ethnic food...from the countless fried-chicken purveyors to Jamaican meat-patty sandwhiches to Haitian creole to Guyanese-style Chinese food...Indo-Pak is coming into it's own...so no, no, of course not people don't really eat that "crap"(your word as I recall).

Nope, when I see my fellow employees leavin' the cafeteria I see tray after tray of eggs and sausage and bacon and cheese and grits(probably the healthiest ingredient)...or I talk a walk to one of the countless bodegas to see those healthy nitrate and fat-filled cold-cut sandwiches and an endless supply of chips and junk food walkin' out the door in the hands of the predominantly black clientele. Next biggest sellers are "loosies" and Blunts...oh yeah, but I stereotype again, eh? Then there are the Salvadorian and Dominican restaurants...more of the same or somewhat similar offerings...more salt, more fat...Cuchifritos, fried plantains...get the drift? Even the Muslim vegetarian place's biggest seller is the deep-fried, batter dipped, vegetable fritters! And of course need we re-mention Col. Macwendybelle's?

Now for the best part...Latino, eh? Well, unles you are pure Aztec, Inca or Olmec, I put it to you, that there is an excellent statistical probability that your bloodline has origins in either the folks responsible for the militaristic decimation of the native population(Conquistadors) or the transmission of disease which caused just as much carnage. Don't forget Portugal and Spain were highly complicit in bringing slaves into the new world...Perhaps your ancestors were land owners and owned a few. Perhaps they were actually slave-traders. What business do you Europeans have in Africa? Even if you don't have Mexican, Central or South American roots, there is still the Carribean islands...the possibility real and the probability likely. Heck of a lot more chance than this little old Slav has, anywho.

And I've said this before, but you seem to have a hard time grasping the reality of it all...getting back to "a thousand years ago" and "what Africans did among themselves" the Europeans had items the Africans wanted...the Africans had a long, proud history of slavery and people were the commodity they had in abundance. It's business, pure and simple...applying a 21st century mindset to a 15th century(or earlier) world is absolute folly and you do so at your own peril. No one is defending or condoning the immorality of slavery, but in a world where feudalism and indentured servitude was the norm, the concept of owning someone is no great leap.

jimHJJ(...like it or not...)

dean_martin
09-09-2005, 08:17 AM
And I've said this before, but you seem to have a hard time grasping the reality of it all...getting back to "a thousand years ago" and "what Africans did among themselves" the Europeans had items the Africans wanted...the Africans had a long, proud history of slavery and people were the commodity they had in abundance. It's business, pure and simple...applying a 21st century mindset to a 15th century(or earlier) world is absolute folly and you do so at your own peril. No one is defending or condoning the immorality of slavery, but in a world where feudalism and indentured servitude was the norm, the concept of owning someone is no great leap.

jimHJJ(...like it or not...)


What does this have to do with an abhorrent practice in this country a mere 140 years ago? That's not too many generations back. Even my lily white southern self recognizes that our country is still too young to eliminate slavery from discussions regarding the current condition of African-Americans. Just because you, your parents or grandparents didn't own slaves doesn't mean that it's not relevant to current sociological discussions. Geez, it's part of our history yet you want to ignore it because your ancestors didn't own slaves. That's what you get for your ancestors coming here. You get the whole ball of wax, not just the prosperity, freedom, comforts and security.

"But mom, everyone else is doing it, why can't I?" Johnny pleaded. "Son, if everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you?" mom replied.

Just because "everyone else" was involved in slave trading and ownership doesn't mean it was excusable in this country. There are some absolute truths in this world that supercede relativism and these truths were recognized and incorporated into our public policy on January 1, 1863 giving meaning to the concept that all men are created equal. Labelling slavery as immoral on the one hand and then excusing it as a "mindset" and "business" on the other is hypocritical especially when you base your arguments on practices from thousands of years ago and we're talking about something that existed in this country only 140-150 years ago.

RL, I agree with you on the food here in the south. It's good. My last stop in New Orleans was always Chez Helene, a soulfood restaurant where you could get the best fried chicken I've ever had. But I must point out that fried chicken, greens, cornbread, etc. garnish just as many white tables as black tables here in the south, especially on Sundays. It's not just a black thang. We southerners as a whole should probably examine our diets a little more closely. (When I travel north or west, the food I miss the most is grits at breakfast.)

And I for one did read your links regarding the topography of New Orleans. One in particular focused on the MS River, but the river didn't flood. The river side of NO was dry until the lake side levees broke. So I'm not sure what point the author was trying to make. Was he implying that we should not re-build NO? Was he trying to point out that we should not be surprised that NO was flooded when his article focused on flooding of the MS but it was the breach of the lake levees that flooded the city? I posted an article that illustrated state officials' and congressional delegation's efforts since the 80s' to address the loss of wetlands that used to serve as a buffer for NO. There are many other articles on this phenomenon that go into greater detail on how the wetlands soaked up storm surges from hurricanes. It's those storm surges that are the most dangerous component of a hurricane for coastal communities. It was the storm surge that caused the lake to rise.

And you might like this. There's a rumour going around that explosions were heard in the lake districts on Tues. just before the levees broke. Some rumour mongerers are examining the first ariel pictures of the debirs at the breach sites for...well, you can figure out the implication for yourself.

Finally, the Federal Gov't has a significant presence in NO. The United States Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit is located in NO. When I got a passport in the mid 80s, it came out of NO. I think there is/was a US Mint there as well. This level of federal entrenchment in NO attracts people and acknowledges the importance of the city. You can't sit back miles away and say that "those people" knew what they were in for or are stupid for living there when our leaders in Washington have decided that it's a place of federal importance. This is not merely a local disaster. The Federal Gov't is just as entrenched in San Francisco. The US Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit is in SF. There's a mint in SF and the list goes on. Were the same things said about the folks living in SF when that earthquake hit back during that World Series game in the 80s?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-09-2005, 08:46 AM
...

What rarefied planet do you live on? Having finger sandwiches and toast points at tea? Ivory tower? I'd suggest you look outside of your small circle of experience and get out in public more often...on the subject of food:

It is a HUGE assumption on your part to assume that my circle is small, and I have never travelled.


Ever been in the deep south? Sorry, pal but you can get that sort of food at nearly any restaurant below the Mason-Dixon line...and not just the hard-core local shacks(where the real stuff is) but in chains like Cracker Barrel, Po' Folks, Bob Evans and Perkins...Visit them any time but particularly on any Sunday and you will find many black folks in their Sunday-best chowing down on deep-fried catfish, chicken-fried steak and fried chicken, okra, greens...all the fixin's...geez, I'm gettin' hungry...

Nobody said you couldn't get the food, I said most blacks do not eat like that EXCEPT on the holidays. Soul food is expensive, and takes quite a bit of time to cook. These days people have to work, and most do not have time to cook soul food on a daily basis. Just because soul food restaurants exist, does not mean the 35 million blacks in this country go. Last time I went to a soul food restaurant, there were more whites there than blacks.


Way up north here in the Big Apple, there are countless places that serve it, the most famous being Sylvia's in Harlem...love that sweet potato pie...even where I work in Queens, you can get any number of variants of salty and fatty(read:unhealthful) ethnic food...from the countless fried-chicken purveyors to Jamaican meat-patty sandwhiches to Haitian creole to Guyanese-style Chinese food...Indo-Pak is coming into it's own...so no, no, of course not people don't really eat that "crap"(your word as I recall).

I was born and raised in New York City so I am quite aware of the many restaurants they have there. But once again that does not mean every black goes there.


Nope, when I see my fellow employees leavin' the cafeteria I see tray after tray of eggs and sausage and bacon and cheese and grits(probably the healthiest ingredient)...or I talk a walk to one of the countless bodegas to see those healthy nitrate and fat-filled cold-cut sandwiches and an endless supply of chips and junk food walkin' out the door in the hands of the predominantly black clientele. Next biggest sellers are "loosies" and Blunts...oh yeah, but I stereotype again, eh? Then there are the Salvadorian and Dominican restaurants...more of the same or somewhat similar offerings...more salt, more fat...Cuchifritos, fried plantains...get the drift? Even the Muslim vegetarian place's biggest seller is the deep-fried, batter dipped, vegetable fritters! And of course need we re-mention Col. Macwendybelle's?

This may be so in your particular world, however NONE of my friends who are black eat like that. None in San Francisco, none in Los Angeles, very few in Chicago. My generation who are black, and the generation after mine have been moving away from that kind of food. Many saw how their parents went down to high blood pressure, and diabetes and do not want that to happen to them.


Now for the best part...Latino, eh? Well, unles you are pure Aztec, Inca or Olmec, I put it to you, that there is an excellent statistical probability that your bloodline has origins in either the folks responsible for the militaristic decimation of the native population(Conquistadors) or the transmission of disease which caused just as much carnage. Don't forget Portugal and Spain were highly complicit in bringing slaves into the new world...Perhaps your ancestors were land owners and owned a few. Perhaps they were actually slave-traders. What business do you Europeans have in Africa? Even if you don't have Mexican, Central or South American roots, there is still the Carribean islands...the possibility real and the probability likely. Heck of a lot more chance than this little old Slav has, anywho.

Thank God my bloodline didn't participate in either owning slaves, or selling them. So now the chances might swing the other way.


And I've said this before, but you seem to have a hard time grasping the reality of it all...getting back to "a thousand years ago" and "what Africans did among themselves" the Europeans had items the Africans wanted...the Africans had a long, proud history of slavery and people were the commodity they had in abundance. It's business, pure and simple...applying a 21st century mindset to a 15th century(or earlier) world is absolute folly and you do so at your own peril. No one is defending or condoning the immorality of slavery, but in a world where feudalism and indentured servitude was the norm, the concept of owning someone is no great leap.

I just love the compassion you express on behalf of the millions of blacks that were killed, maimed, and seperated from their families time and time again. Your compassion is very moving, all in the name of a business deal. I am sure the blacks that had to endure this kind of treatment would just love to thank you for such a no no nonesense business deal.

piece-it pete
09-09-2005, 09:17 AM
You know I've been thinking about that stuff (latent effects) since my short post.

Of course the pall of slavery still stinks up our society. My problem is evey time a serious discussion comes up I'm painted a racist cracker right off the bat, when I had nothing to do with it (NO-ONE here did either on both sides) and moreover come from an area heavily involved in both abolition and the underground railroad. Racist comments had no place in my family.

And it is true that it is difficult to apply current mores to past societies (and the society that allowed slavery was much different than our own). I assure you, they would be SHOCKED (they including many of the slaves) at some of our accepted behaviour.

If this is plain talk then I would say to minorities (in general of course):

Don't mistrust everything the majority does. Our system was not built with the express purpose of holding anyone down, exactly the opposite, although our aims were compromised to create a union. Don't forget it was righted eventually (and bloodily). Federalism is not a bad thing. Recognise your prejudices as well. Force yourself to look at the big picture. Police are generally there to get bad guys. Don't slam someone for saying what they really believe, it's always better to know the truth. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

To the majority (again in general):

Don't have a heart attack every time a minority member walks down the street. The reason many minorities look to the feds for protection is that we didn't do it on the local level - we (at least our parents and still in our attitude) forced them to look there (that's right - affirmitive action is our own fault! Take your medicine). Police can be racist. Recognise racism still exists. Recognise your prejudices as well. Think about how a minority child feels when he discovers racism. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

Hmmm. We would all do well to remember that there are real differences betwen cultures. Some good, some bad. And above all remember our good Ben Franklin: "Any fool stupid enough to trade liberty for security deserves neither".

Pete

PS: Does anyone here know the story behind "40 acres and a mule"? Incredibly interesting, and imho if instituted would have made integration of the former slaves a virtual impossiblity.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-09-2005, 09:31 AM
While I respect your passion for the subject and agree that owning a slave is morally reprehensible, this statement is not quite correct...

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1006/article/1091

Please don't stoop to the same tactics of broad generalizations you accuse others of.

Mark,
Perhaps blacks did own slaves. However I have never read about blacks hanging other blacks because they looked at black women. I never read about a black beating another black because they looked them in the eye, or talked back. I have read about whites lynching blacks for the same reasons. .

Funny, I never read about black only water fountains, restaurants, hotels, baseball parks, or blacks at the front of the bus, and whites in the back. I would believe that if blacks did own other blacks, they would be far less cruel and uncaring

Kam
09-09-2005, 09:35 AM
PS: Does anyone here know the story behind "40 acres and a mule"? Incredibly interesting, and imho if instituted would have made integration of the former slaves a vertual impossiblity.


http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1994/4/94.04.01.x.html

Long article by a professor about his course, but section III. Overview of the Struggle for Reparations discusses the origins of this.

markw
09-09-2005, 09:48 AM
Mark,
Perhaps blacks did own slaves. However I have never read about blacks hanging other blacks because they looked at black women. I never read about a black beating another black because they looked them in the eye, or talked back.From what I read in the papers every day , these are fairly common inner city black on black crimes. While hanging is not in style, shootings and stabbings have replaced this. and, this doesn't even figure in the innocent victims of drive by shootings.

I respectfully request that someone close this thread. There are some pretty broad generalizations being thrown about on both sides.

It's going to get pretty ugly if this continues.

shokhead
09-09-2005, 09:52 AM
Good idea. Botton line is that slavery happened and was wrong. But not all whites owned and not all blacks were slaves.

piece-it pete
09-09-2005, 09:54 AM
Instead of forcing it closed (although if it must it must) I suggest we all do what we need to do to keep it from spiraling out of control.

It would be different if we had flaming newbies in here. But if us regulars can't handle this...

It really shows how difficult this subject is imo. Emotions are powerful.

Pete

GMichael
09-09-2005, 09:59 AM
You know I've been thinking about that stuff (latent effects) since my short post.

Of course the pall of slavery still stinks up our society. My problem is evey time a serious discussion comes up I'm painted a racist cracker right off the bat, when I had nothing to do with it (NO-ONE here did either on both sides) and moreover come from an area heavily involved in both abolition and the underground railroad. Racist comments had no place in my family.

And it is true that it is difficult to apply current mores to past societies (and the society that allowed slavery was much different than our own). I assure you, they would be SHOCKED (they including many of the slaves) at some of our accepted behaviour.

If this is plain talk then I would say to minorities (in general of course):

Don't mistrust everything the majority does. Our system was not built with the express purpose of holding anyone down, exactly the opposite, although our aims were compromised to create a union. Don't forget it was righted eventually (and bloodily). Federalism is not a bad thing. Recognise your prejudices as well. Force yourself to look at the big picture. Police are generally there to get bad guys. Don't slam someone for saying what they really believe, it's always better to know the truth. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

To the majority (again in general):

Don't have a heart attack every time a minority member walks down the street. The reason many minorities look to the feds for protection is that we didn't do it on the local level - we (at least our parents and still in our attitude) forced them to look there (that's right - affirmitive action is our own fault! Take your medicine). Police can be racist. Recognise racism still exists. Recognise your prejudices as well. Think about how a minority child feels when he discovers racism. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

Hmmm. We would all do well to remember that there are real differences betwen cultures. Some good, some bad. And above all remember our good Ben Franklin: "Any fool stupid enough to trade liberty for security deserves neither".

Pete

PS: Does anyone here know the story behind "40 acres and a mule"? Incredibly interesting, and imho if instituted would have made integration of the former slaves a virtual impossiblity.


What you say here makes way too much sense. Maybe that's why no one has commented on it.

Resident Loser
09-09-2005, 10:24 AM
...exchange I have had with this gentleman. and I'm sure it won't be the last...there are errors that keep re-appearing and I simply keep saying the same things...

I'm not ignoring history or anything else for that matter, I am engaging in a reasonable, rational discussion of it and that is quite simply that slavery goes back thousands of years...Egyptians, Romans, Greeks(and more) who for the most part kept other white folks in bondage..

The black Africans did the same with other black Africans...they traded their commoditiy as a part of the trans-Atlantic slave trade...white folks didn't(for the most part) go out with nets and rip the natives from their mother country, they were given in trade by the warlords and chiefs who had been engaging in slavery for quite some time...it was simply business, like it or not... Of course, one could make the argument of supply and demand being a driving force, however slaves would still be taken regardless of who the ultimate owners would be. As I pointed out, there still exists chattel slavery in Niger and other African countries; there is an entire lineage of people currently born into it. Ain't no white folks involved.

Furthermore, I am not denying it's existence, merely trying to curtail some of the broad and sweeping generalizations about who should carry the blame for it...It is recorded fact that less than 1000 families held slaves in the U.S. 140 or 150 years ago and that a vast percentage of the forbears of the general population today arrived on these shores perhaps 120 years ago or later. Do the math. Gotta' problem with someone, find the responsible parties and b!tch to them. My only resposibility is to make sure it doesn't happen again, other than that you're on your own.

So while it's verboten to for me as a caucasion to comment on observed stereotypical behavior, it's perfectly OK for a "person of color" to characterize all whites as responsible for slavery. That ain't the way it works.

Insofar as the food issue is concerned, it's gotten entirely out of context. Lord knows there are enough barrel-butts of every stripe across the country. The initial comments were made re: the inhabitants of N.O., predominantly black, who statistically have a higher incidence of HBP and diabetes...Resultant health issues caused by a general disregard of these diet related and avoidable factors, have a disproportionate percentage of the population unable get out of their own way, much less floodwaters...this IMO is a personal responsibility issue, we don't have enough helicopters to pluck people out of harms way like a stuffed toy in a penny arcade. For some reason people seem to think life is like the movies.

My maternal grandmother raised 10 kids...her husband was killed in a coal mine...the family was on home relief...cold water flat and a coal stove...

My paternal grandmother raised 5 kids...she separated/divorced grampa' because he was a drunkard...she got a job and a smaller brood, so they were a bit better off...

In both cases the children got jobs and helped in sustaining their respective families...eventually most got married and raised their own families...everyone was at most a bus ride away from each other, most in walking distance...my father got back from WWll, got a job and married my mom...he worked 50-60 hours a week...saved and bought a used DeSoto in '51 or '52...worked until he retired on a union pension and then worked again part-time in Sears...both still living...in an rent-controlled apartment...no extravagance...if you don't have the cash, it doesn't get bought...I've been working for 40 years now...started out in a supermarket, been at my current job nearly 36 years...started around two and change an hour...worked seven days a week, twelve hours a day for some number of years...bought a used car five years after I got married and had enough saved for a down payment on a house...other than the mortgage(since paid off), if you don't have the cash, it doesn't get bought...bought a new vehicle in '91, paid cash. OK for a high school grad, only about 80 years or so in the making.

jimHJJ(...no one has given me much of anything, including respect; I supply that myself. So much for any ivory tower, eh?...)

piece-it pete
09-09-2005, 10:25 AM
What you say here makes way too much sense. Maybe that's why no one has commented on it.

Awww shucks.

:D

Thanks. It's just a new post is all.

Pete

GMichael
09-09-2005, 10:27 AM
And we haven't even started talking about those women raping small town terrorizing Harley drivers!

Pete

What? Where's this? When does it begin? How do I get involved?

piece-it pete
09-09-2005, 10:28 AM
And we haven't even started talking about those women raping small town terrorizing Harley drivers!

Pete

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-09-2005, 10:57 AM
You know I've been thinking about that stuff (latent effects) since my short post.

Of course the pall of slavery still stinks up our society. My problem is evey time a serious discussion comes up I'm painted a racist cracker right off the bat, when I had nothing to do with it (NO-ONE here did either on both sides) and moreover come from an area heavily involved in both abolition and the underground railroad. Racist comments had no place in my family.

Pete, then you are part of the solution, and not the problem. I would never call anyone a racist cracker even if I believed it were true. Its not my style, and secondly all three of my closest friends are all white.


And it is true that it is difficult to apply current mores to past societies (and the society that allowed slavery was much different than our own). I assure you, they would be SHOCKED (they including many of the slaves) at some of our accepted behaviour.

I am sure this is true


If this is plain talk then I would say to minorities (in general of course):

Don't mistrust everything the majority does. Our system was not built with the express purpose of holding anyone down, exactly the opposite, although our aims were compromised to create a union. Don't forget it was righted eventually (and bloodily). Federalism is not a bad thing. Recognise your prejudices as well. Force yourself to look at the big picture. Police are generally there to get bad guys. Don't slam someone for saying what they really believe, it's always better to know the truth. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

You had me until you got to the police. Sorry, but the amount of brutality the police have exacted on minorities cannot be forgotten. In Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Miami(I know there is more but I can't remember) have all had either riots, or strong protest against the police's behavior to minorities. Oakland just concluded a court case recently of police brutatlity. IMO, the police ARE the bad guys. There is no excuse for them stopping a young guy on a daily basis just because he had a nice car(that was me). There was no excuse for leaving a young man on the side of the curb for 45 minutes in 25 degree weather with no coat. Especially since he heard the dispatcher distinctly say all clear 2 minutes after the stop.


To the majority (again in general):

Don't have a heart attack every time a minority member walks down the street. The reason many minorities look to the feds for protection is that we didn't do it on the local level - we (at least our parents and still in our attitude) forced them to look there (that's right - affirmitive action is our own fault! Take your medicine). Police can be racist. Recognise racism still exists. Recognise your prejudices as well. Think about how a minority child feels when he discovers racism. Some stereotypes have roots in reality.

Well said. I am accutely aware that racism cuts both ways. I have really gotten on some blacks for there racist comments against whites. I hate racism no matter which direction it flows.


Hmmm. We would all do well to remember that there are real difference betwen cultures. Some good, some bad. And above all remember our good Ben Franklin: "Any fool stupid enough to trade liberty for security deserves neither".



Pete

I don't really think that any cultural differences are good or bad. Just different.

PS: Does anyone here know the story behind "40 acres and a mule"? Incredibly interesting, and imho if instituted would have made integration of the former slaves a vertual impossiblity.[/QUOTE]

But Pete, what is the use of freeing someone if all it does is leave them open to bondage again? Blacks were freed and left with nothing. No where to go, nothing to eat, nothing.

However, a small amount of land was given to freed slaves. They tilled the soil, and made a profit. Andrew Johnson put a quick stop to that though.

Resident Loser
09-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Nobody said you couldn't get the food, I said most blacks do not eat like that EXCEPT on the holidays. Soul food is expensive, and takes quite a bit of time to cook. These days people have to work, and most do not have time to cook soul food on a daily basis. Just because soul food restaurants exist, does not mean the 35 million blacks in this country go. Last time I went to a soul food restaurant, there were more whites there than blacks.

I was born and raised in New York City so I am quite aware of the many restaurants they have there. But once again that does not mean every black goes there.

This may be so in your particular world, however NONE of my friends who are black eat like that. None in San Francisco, none in Los Angeles, very few in Chicago. My generation who are black, and the generation after mine have been moving away from that kind of food. Many saw how their parents went down to high blood pressure, and diabetes and do not want that to happen to them.

But we aren't discussing YOUR generation are we...we're talking about folks who are of the age and girth and have health problems commensurate with such eating habits that the more enlightened among us avoid or only indulge in once in a while...try to remember the context of the subject.

And besides Col. Macwendybelle's seems to be the foodstuffs of choice with particular emphasis on MickeyD's and I suppose all those local meat stores that I see selling ox tails, bull's penis and pig's feet are relying on all those white folks you see in the soul food restaurants to bring the magic home.


Thank God my bloodline didn't participate in either owning slaves, or selling them. So now the chances might swing the other way.

A descendent of Motezuma are you...in that case you're not really Latino. A recent arrival from Castile perhaps, still doesn't diminish the potential for your complicity, does it?...I mean Spain is still one of those involved European nations who had no business in Africa...I don't think one of those ships from Gdansk ever made the middle passage.


I just love the compassion you express on behalf of the millions of blacks that were killed, maimed, and seperated from their families time and time again. Your compassion is very moving, all in the name of a business deal. I am sure the blacks that had to endure this kind of treatment would just love to thank you for such a no no nonesense business deal.

I didn't accept some cocoa beans or potatoes in trade for a neighboring villager and trust me, I have a much greater hatred for the southern slave owners than you might suspect. I'm just presenting facts devoid of emotional involvement.

jimHJJ(...pity you seem unable to do the same...)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-09-2005, 12:08 PM
But we aren't discussing YOUR generation are we...we're talking about folks who are of the age and girth and have health problems commensurate with such eating habits that the more enlightened among us avoid or only indulge in once in a while...try to remember the context of the subject.

In that case you comments transcend race. When I look around me, I see just as many fat whites as I see fat blacks.


And besides Col. Macwendybelle's seems to be the foodstuffs of choice with particular emphasis on MickeyD's and I suppose all those local meat stores that I see selling ox tails, bull's penis and pig's feet are relying on all those white folks you see in the soul food restaurants to bring the magic home.

I know just as many whites as blacks that eat the food you describe(mostly in the south). To make this a black issue is just stereotypical generalizations. Mickey D's has sold billions of burgers, surely they weren't only sold to blacks. That goes for wendy's also. Neither of these two fast food joints can survive just selling burgers to blacks, right?




A descendent of Motezuma are you...in that case you're not really Latino. A recent arrival from Castile perhaps, still doesn't diminish the potential for your complicity, does it?...I mean Spain is still one of those involved European nations who had no business in Africa...I don't think one of those ships from Gdansk ever made the middle passage.

Do you wanna try again. Trying to include me in this is futile. I have already traced my heritage, and slavery wasn't on the menu. Sorry, try someone else.






I didn't accept some cocoa beans or potatoes in trade for a neighboring villager and trust me, I have a much greater hatred for the southern slave owners than you might suspect. I'm just presenting facts devoid of emotional involvement.

jimHJJ(...pity you seem unable to do the same...)

Well I sure am fooled by your uncaring, non chalant attitude.

Sure you are devoid of emotion, it didn't happen to you, or your relatives. However when I hear the things that my mom and dad had to go through, the things that my great, and great great grandparents had to go though, I find myself unable to be unemotional. I bet when you saw all of the folks in NO suffering, you were probably unemotional then. The real pity is the folks that believe in segregation, were also unemotional to the plight of those who justed wanted to live their lives equally as americans.

dean_martin
09-09-2005, 02:11 PM
Furthermore, I am not denying it's existence, merely trying to curtail some of the broad and sweeping generalizations about who should carry the blame for it...It is recorded fact that less than 1000 families held slaves in the U.S. 140 or 150 years ago and that a vast percentage of the forbears of the general population today arrived on these shores perhaps 120 years ago or later. Do the math. Gotta' problem with someone, find the responsible parties and b!tch to them. My only resposibility is to make sure it doesn't happen again, other than that you're on your own.

So while it's verboten to for me as a caucasion to comment on observed stereotypical behavior, it's perfectly OK for a "person of color" to characterize all whites as responsible for slavery. That ain't the way it works.

Insofar as the food issue is concerned, it's gotten entirely out of context. Lord knows there are enough barrel-butts of every stripe across the country. The initial comments were made re: the inhabitants of N.O., predominantly black, who statistically have a higher incidence of HBP and diabetes...Resultant health issues caused by a general disregard of these diet related and avoidable factors, have a disproportionate percentage of the population unable get out of their own way, much less floodwaters...this IMO is a personal responsibility issue, we don't have enough helicopters to pluck people out of harms way like a stuffed toy in a penny arcade. For some reason people seem to think life is like the movies.

My maternal grandmother raised 10 kids...her husband was killed in a coal mine...the family was on home relief...cold water flat and a coal stove...

My paternal grandmother raised 5 kids...she separated/divorced grampa' because he was a drunkard...she got a job and a smaller brood, so they were a bit better off...

In both cases the children got jobs and helped in sustaining their respective families...eventually most got married and raised their own families...everyone was at most a bus ride away from each other, most in walking distance...my father got back from WWll, got a job and married my mom...he worked 50-60 hours a week...saved and bought a used DeSoto in '51 or '52...worked until he retired on a union pension and then worked again part-time in Sears...both still living...in an rent-controlled apartment...no extravagance...if you don't have the cash, it doesn't get bought...I've been working for 40 years now...started out in a supermarket, been at my current job nearly 36 years...started around two and change an hour...worked seven days a week, twelve hours a day for some number of years...bought a used car five years after I got married and had enough saved for a down payment on a house...other than the mortgage(since paid off), if you don't have the cash, it doesn't get bought...bought a new vehicle in '91, paid cash. OK for a high school grad, only about 80 years or so in the making.

jimHJJ(...no one has given me much of anything, including respect; I supply that myself. So much for any ivory tower, eh?...)



Do the 1000 families you mention = the 385,000 people mentioned in the article linked by markw? I don't think anybody was putting the blame on anyone here. We know the "responsible parties" are dead and gone. And I didn't take T's comments as meaning ALL whites were responsible for slavery.

But, your (RL's) observations of stereotypes deserved some feedback. Diabetes is not caused by diet, it is a genetic disorder that can be (but not necessarily) aggravated or controlled by diet, but diet is not the cause. In most instances, the etiology of hypertension (chronic high blood pressure) is unkown. In those instances in which an etiology can be determined, curative treatment is available. (In other words, you don't have it anymore.) In most instances management is the only available medical treatment. Besides, Fats Domino got out of the 9th Ward. He's certainly not the young athletic type so other factors must be in play. It's also particularly heartless to say that people couldn't escape what could possibly be the worst disaster in this nation's history because they were old, diseased and fat. I guess they should have been training for the day they would have to outrace flood waters.

I had to reconcile the Fats Domino story with the pictures of downtown NO and its people shown on tv. The 9th Ward, I discovered, has the highest percentage of black home ownership in the city. Most who live there are professionals, many of whom work in the government at the city, state and federal levels.

BTW, you and your family's perseverance and hard work are due respect. You've shared your story. We haven't heard a fraction of the stories of the people of downtown NO. Maybe some of them will earn your respect.

piece-it pete
09-09-2005, 08:36 PM
Pete, then you are part of the solution, and not the problem. I would never call anyone a racist cracker even if I believed it were true. Its not my style, and secondly all three of my closest friends are all white.


You wouldn't?? I sure as hell would!



You had me until you got to the police. Sorry, but the amount of brutality the police have exacted on minorities cannot be forgotten. In Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Miami(I know there is more but I can't remember) have all had either riots, or strong protest against the police's behavior to minorities. Oakland just concluded a court case recently of police brutatlity. IMO, the police ARE the bad guys. There is no excuse for them stopping a young guy on a daily basis just because he had a nice car(that was me). There was no excuse for leaving a young man on the side of the curb for 45 minutes in 25 degree weather with no coat. Especially since he heard the dispatcher distinctly say all clear 2 minutes after the stop.


Well in my next paragraph I mentioned police can be racist. I know firsthand - I have met a retired Cleveland detective who was proud of his kkk membership. And after 9-11 his son drove a car into the local Mosque. Just a normal, happy family. How many people did he frame?

What I'm refering to is situations like this: Last year here a punk kid (15 iirc) raised on gangster rap and taught to look up to those thugs stole a car, got trapped and pinned a cop onto a wall. As he tried to smush him the cop drew his weapon and shot the kid though the cars' windshield. Did the community mourn the kids passing and vow to stop this violent criminal underclass? Yes, and no. They mourned, but blamed the cop. I'm talking about the community leaders.

I am currently moving from an inner old suburb area that has been almost proudly racist forever until recently (example: in 1989 the city council president publicly stated "We don't want minorities here") to a neighborhood that is much more integrated (and much more prosperous overall), where the mcmansion building boom has hit. (Sadly, I'm NOT moving into one of them, but am familiar with the area already)

I WANT the cops to knock heads "when appropriate". But racism will not be tolerated - thugs and *******s of every stripe are welcome - to get out. The cops work for me, and my neighbors.

I do realise that whole police departments can be institutionally racist, look at LA (hopefully the way LA was, not is). But to teach kids to scream "Black cop, black cop black cop black cop" (a "song") and give them over to the criminal element is no good answer!

FYI when I had long hair I was profiled all the time. I do understand that was a choice, though.


Well said. I am accutely aware that racism cuts both ways. I have really gotten on some blacks for there racist comments against whites. I hate racism no matter which direction it flows.


I do believe you. We need to be aware of our own tendencies as well.


I don't really think that any cultural differences are good or bad. Just different.


That's a nice thought, but some cultures are very violent, even depraved. I stand by my statement: there are good and bad traits in different cultures. If we were truly enlightened we would be trying to identify them.

I have mentioned many traits that are well known, even if no longer true. The reason "ethnic" jokes are funny 'cause the shoe often fits.


But Pete, what is the use of freeing someone if all it does is leave them open to bondage again? Blacks were freed and left with nothing. No where to go, nothing to eat, nothing.


I understand that, but what most think "40 acres and a mule" means and what was actually being proposed is very different.

You may be interested to know that some enlightened slave owners understood it, too. Washington, who refused to split up families (much to his financial detriment - the only way to really make money with slaves was breeding and selling them), tried to educate his slaves. This was eventually stopped when it was outlawed by the Virginia legislature.


However, a small amount of land was given to freed slaves. They tilled the soil, and made a profit. Andrew Johnson put a quick stop to that though.

I am not familiar with his Presidency.

Jim I had no idea you were, well, old :D . You live/ have lived in the old ethnic neighborhoods? Rubbing elbows with so many different folks must be a eye opening experience.

In my experience there's a truth in those neighborhoods (Cleveland is an old immigrant city, but not on the same scale as the big east coast cities). Punches are not pulled and folks are a bit more blunt than more genteel places. But you know exactly where everyone stands! A LOT different than the snipe behind the back suburbs, for sure.

I agree we must remove emotions as much as possible from our discourse on these subjects :yes: . Mainly because those who would control us (all of us) don't give one wit about how we all feel, except to manipulate them.

Pete

BTW, anyone see "Crash"?

Kam
09-09-2005, 08:46 PM
BTW, anyone see "Crash"?

loved it. check my review in the fav films. i urged everyone to go check it out.

shokhead
09-10-2005, 04:59 AM
Pete, then you are part of the solution, and not the problem. I would never call anyone a racist cracker even if I believed it were true. Its not my style, and secondly all three of my closest friends are all white.



I am sure this is true



You had me until you got to the police. Sorry, but the amount of brutality the police have exacted on minorities cannot be forgotten. In Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Miami(I know there is more but I can't remember) have all had either riots, or strong protest against the police's behavior to minorities. Oakland just concluded a court case recently of police brutatlity. IMO, the police ARE the bad guys. There is no excuse for them stopping a young guy on a daily basis just because he had a nice car(that was me). There was no excuse for leaving a young man on the side of the curb for 45 minutes in 25 degree weather with no coat. Especially since he heard the dispatcher distinctly say all clear 2 minutes after the stop.



Well said. I am accutely aware that racism cuts both ways. I have really gotten on some blacks for there racist comments against whites. I hate racism no matter which direction it flows.



I don't really think that any cultural differences are good or bad. Just different.

PS: Does anyone here know the story behind "40 acres and a mule"? Incredibly interesting, and imho if instituted would have made integration of the former slaves a vertual impossiblity.

But Pete, what is the use of freeing someone if all it does is leave them open to bondage again? Blacks were freed and left with nothing. No where to go, nothing to eat, nothing.

However, a small amount of land was given to freed slaves. They tilled the soil, and made a profit. Andrew Johnson put a quick stop to that though.[/QUOTE]


Three of my closest friends are white. So? Is that suppose to mean something? It means you have 3 white friends. Makes you no more or less a racist.

shokhead
09-10-2005, 05:08 AM
You wouldn't?? I sure as hell would!





Well in my next paragraph I mentioned police can be racist. I know firsthand - I have met a retired Cleveland detective who was proud of his kkk membership. And after 9-11 his son drove a car into the local Mosque. Just a normal, happy family. How many people did he frame?

What I'm refering to is situations like this: Last year here a punk kid (15 iirc) raised on gangster rap and taught to look up to those thugs stole a car, got trapped and pinned a cop onto a wall. As he tried to smush him the cop drew his weapon and shot the kid though the cars' windshield. Did the community mourn the kids passing and vow to stop this violent criminal underclass? Yes, and no. They mourned, but blamed the cop. I'm talking about the community leaders.

I am currently moving from an inner old suburb area that has been almost proudly racist forever until recently (example: in 1989 the city council president publicly stated "We don't want minorities here") to a neighborhood that is much more integrated (and much more prosperous overall), where the mcmansion building boom has hit. (Sadly, I'm NOT moving into one of them, but am familiar with the area already)

I WANT the cops to knock heads "when appropriate". But racism will not be tolerated - thugs and *******s of every stripe are welcome - to get out. The cops work for me, and my neighbors.

I do realise that whole police departments can be institutionally racist, look at LA (hopefully the way LA was, not is). But to teach kids to scream "Black cop, black cop black cop black cop" (a "song") and give them over to the criminal element is no good answer!

FYI when I had long hair I was profiled all the time. I do understand that was a choice, though.




I do believe you. We need to be aware of our own tendencies as well.




That's a nice thought, but some cultures are very violent, even depraved. I stand by my statement: there are good and bad traits in different cultures. If we were truly enlightened we would be trying to identify them.

I have mentioned many traits that are well known, even if no longer true. The reason "ethnic" jokes are funny 'cause the shoe often fits.




I understand that, but what most think "40 acres and a mule" means and what was actually being proposed is very different.

You may be interested to know that some enlightened slave owners understood it, too. Washington, who refused to split up families (much to his financial detriment - the only way to really make money with slaves was breeding and selling them), tried to educate his slaves. This was eventually stopped when it was outlawed by the Virginia legislature.



I am not familiar with his Presidency.

Jim I had no idea you were, well, old :D . You live/ have lived in the old ethnic neighborhoods? Rubbing elbows with so many different folks must be a eye opening experience.

In my experience there's a truth in those neighborhoods (Cleveland is an old immigrant city, but not on the same scale as the big east coast cities). Punches are not pulled and folks are a bit more blunt than more genteel places. But you know exactly where everyone stands! A LOT different than the snipe behind the back suburbs, for sure.

I agree we must remove emotions as much as possible from our discourse on these subjects :yes: . Mainly because those who would control us (all of us) don't give one wit about how we all feel, except to manipulate them.

Pete

BTW, anyone see "Crash"?



One Cleveland cop doesnt make police racist.
Ya think every LA cop is a racist?
Like i told my daughter yesterday as we were driving to the store and a guy turned in front of me. That guy is a a$$hole. Not all black guys are a$$holes. Most people have some racist in them. I work on it all the time.{not to be}

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-10-2005, 11:58 AM
Three of my closest friends are white. So? Is that suppose to mean something? It means you have 3 white friends. Makes you no more or less a racist.

If I was racist, the three wouldn't be there, and not certainly 15+ years. I wouldn't have ever marched in marching band(mostly white), never marched in the Cavaliers(mostly white), never got into the film business(almost all white), never moved into the neighborhood I did(all white), or work in television(mostly white), or even talk to my grandmother(white born in England). That would be way too much contact with the very race that I would be biased against. My world is about people, and not races.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-10-2005, 12:11 PM
From what I read in the papers every day , these are fairly common inner city black on black crimes. While hanging is not in style, shootings and stabbings have replaced this. and, this doesn't even figure in the innocent victims of drive by shootings.

I respectfully request that someone close this thread. There are some pretty broad generalizations being thrown about on both sides.

It's going to get pretty ugly if this continues.

Black on black crime is a extemely complicated issue. Its not as simple as saying "oh look, the african americans are killing each other". Its gang or turf related, and gangs come in all races. When I lived in LA, it was violence in east LA. Mexicans killing mexicans. The mafia was whites killing whites. Asians gangs attack other asian gangs. Same race killing is not limited to the black race unless you put on blinders and look at the rest of the world

I think part of the problem why race issues still plagues this country is because when the talk becomes frank and open, people tend to run away, leaving everyone with a continued lack of understanding of each other. Yes there are generalization made, but the only way to deal with the generalization is to dispel them through dialog. We have run enough, now its time to get to some understanding.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-10-2005, 01:56 PM
With all of this talk of slavery, I decided to talk to my aunt who is a former professor of History at some large college in the Northeast( I didn't really ask her which one, that wasn't important to me). The 4 hour discussion I had with her was pretty enlightening since I only have a American text book education of the subject. She has studied slavery of all periods most of her adult life and she is the single best source I know that doesn't color the issue with viewpoints and conjecture. She led me to a couple of great books to read that she thought were very good, and ones she had used in class.

Slavery in Africa is much different than it was here in America. It was mainly to serve the kings of royalty of Africa. Slavery in Africa was not physicallty cruel as slavery in America was. It however made a few african slave traders very rich, and they became very protective of their income sources. This included attacking other tribes and kingdoms to get enslave who they conquer. There were guidlines in place on the relationship of the slave, and the slave owner. For example the slave master were not physically cruel to their slaves. Slaves were generally treated pretty well, as no master wanted to lose something that was so valueable to them.

East African slave trade was driven by rich sultans in the middle east looking for domestic servants. It was also not as physically cruel as slavery in America. Arabs eventually settled on the african coast amoungst the Africans already living there to be closer to the trade.

When Europe began its trips to Africa it was started by the Portuguese. The Portuguese were particularly keen to explore Africa for wealth and material gain; at the same time they had started up colonies in the Americas, and needed labour to work on plantations there. In the 1440's Africans were captured and taken to Portugal. In 1518 after Columbus began making trips to the carribean, slaves started making the crossing of the Atlantic ocean. This is when the nature of slavery began to take a very different course. The sheer numbers of African unwillingly taken from Africa was estimated at 12 million by the end of the 18th century.

The Atlantic slave trade was shaped and driven by commercial forces of profit and new patterns of consumption. In the past, slavery had a social and cultural context, rooted in kingship, which imposed definition and restraints on the slave master relationship. In the 15th century the chief goal was profit. Conditions for slaves was very harsh.

This is were African slavery become notable different than American slavery. The status of slaves in America was different to that of those in Africa and Europe. In ancient times a slave in North Africa, Greece or Rome, or in Arab countries, could rise to a position of public prominence. Women might marry into the ruling class.

No slaves married their masters or mistresses in the Americas, although there were secret relationships, usually forced upon the slave. Whether badly or well treated, slaves were, in American society at large, marked out and despised for the colour of their skin, and so were their descendants. This attitude was unique to American slavery.

Most of all slaves in this period went to the carribean first (42% estimate). The second area was Brazil (38% estimate). Only a estimate of 5% headed towards North America.

Slave ships held between 250-600 slaves. The food was bad, water hard to get, and conditions were terrible. Disease, grief, and starvation often killed about 1/4 to 1/2 of the slaves. While the slaves were a commodity, they were not treated with the same care as sugar, gold or other traded commondities.

One noteable thing that I learned is that more slaves where captured by European raids, than were actually sold by African slave traders themselves. Kidnapping only had a very short life span as it tended to anger the kings and tribal leaders.

Slavery in America.

The slave system in America was unique in human history. Mostly slaves were treated cruelly; at other times with kindness. They were more often used as a sign of affluence, a way of displaying one's wealth and of enjoying luxury, rather than as the means for the systematic accumulation of wealth. Previously, slavery had existed in hierarchical societies in which the slave was at the bottom of a social ladder, the most inferior in a society of unequals. While each society normally preferred to choose its slaves from alien people, it did not limit its selection exclusively to the members of any one race. Slave inferiority did not lead necessarily to racial inferiority. In contrast to this, slavery in America was set apart by three characteristics: capitalism, individualism, and racism.

Capitalism increased the degree of dehumanization and depersonalization implicit in the institution of slavery. While it had been normal in other forms of slavery for the slave to be legally defined as a thing, a piece of property, in America he also became a form of capital. Here his life was regimented to fill the needs of a highly organized productive system sensitively attuned to the driving forces of competitive free enterprise. American masters were probably no more cruel and no more sadistic than others, and, in fact, the spread of humanitarianism in the modern world may have made the opposite true. Nevertheless, their capitalistic mentality firmly fixed their eyes on minimizing expenses and maximizing profits. Besides being a piece of property, the American slave was transformed into part of the plantation machine, a part of the ever-growing investment in the master' mushrooming wealth.

The second unique factor in American slavery was the growth of individualism. While this democratic spirit attracted many European immigrants, it only served to increase the burden of slavery for the African. Instead of being at the bottom of the social ladder, the slave in America was an inferior among equals. A society which represented itself as recognizing individual worth and providing room for the development of talent, rigidly organized the entire life of the slave and gave him little opportunity to develop his skills. In America, a person's worth became identified with economic achievement. To be a success in Virginia was to be a prosperous planter, and white individualism could easily become white oppression leaving no room for black individualism. The existence of slavery in a society which maintained its belief in equality was a contradiction which men strove diligently to ignore.

The third characteristic which set American slavery apart was its racial basis. In America, with only a few early and insignificant exceptions, all slaves were Africans, and almost all Africans were slaves. This placed the label of inferiority on black skin and on African culture. In other societies, it had been possible for a slave who obtained his freedom to take his place in his society with relative ease. In America, however, when a slave became free, he was still obviously an African. The taint of inferiority clung to him.

Not only did white America become convinced of white superiority and black inferiority, but it strove to impose these racial beliefs on the Africans themselves. Slave masters gave a great deal of attention to the education and training of the ideal slave, In general, there were five steps in molding the character of such a slave: strict discipline, a sense of his own inferiority, belief in the master's superior power, acceptance of the master's standards, and, finally, a deep sense of his own helplessness and dependence. At every point this education was built on the belief in white superiority and black inferiority. Besides teaching the slave to despise his own history and culture, the master strove to inculcate his own value system into the African's outlook. The white man's belief in the African's inferiority paralleled African self hate.

Slavery has always been an evil institution, and being a slave has always been undesirable. However, the slave in America was systematically exploited for the accumulation of wealth. Being a slave in a democracy, he was put outside of the bounds of society. Finally, because his slavery was racially defined, his plight was incurable. Although he might flee from slavery, he could not escape his race.

Here is a part I learned that was particularly eye opening for me.


Philip Burnham, in the article "Selling Poor Steven" published in the February/March 1993 issue of American Heritage, found that in the US Census of 1830 there were 3,775 free blacks who owned 12,740 black slaves. Burnham wrote about the slave John Casor, who was denied his freedom by Black slave owner Anthony Johnson.

There were many free blacks in the American colonies. They were enfranchised and as early as 1641, Mathias De Sousa, were elected to legislatures. These free blacks owned slaves - some for philanthropic reasons, as Carter G. Woodson suggests. However as John Hope Franklin wrote, "...free Negroes had a real economic interest in the institution of slavery and held slaves in order to improve their economic status."

The census of 1830 lists 965 free black slave owners in Louisiana, owning 4,206 slaves. The state of South Carolina, lists 464 free blacks owning 2,715 slaves. How ironic it is that so many blacks owned so many slaves in South Carolina.

The largest black slaveholder in the South, John Carruthers Stanly of North Carolina, faced a number of problems in the 1820s in dealing with a slave labor force on his three turpentine plantations in Craven County. With a total of 163 slaves, Stanly was a harsh, profit-minded taskmaster, and his field hands would run away. Stanley dealt with this through his two white overseers and with a spy network that included a few trusted slaves. Brister, his slave barber in New Bern, was responsible for relaying to his owner rumors of planned escapes …Nor did Stanly have any pangs of conscience about selling children away from their parents or holding free blacks in bondage

A point I have made all along is that there are cruel and mean blacks, and whites

Largerly blacks slaves where treated much better with black masters than white masters. However black masters had the same motives for financial gains the the white slave master.

I have said in a previous post on slavery, that slavery in Africa was VERY different from slavery in America, and that slavery in America was uniquely cruel, mean and racist. The facts bear this out. I have said in this post that even though I think slavery is wrong, that black slaves that had black masters were certainly better off than with white slave masters. Writings of slaves of the period bear this out.

Unlike anytime in history racism became a point in slavery that never existed before. So it furthers my point that slavery in America was unique to slavery over the centuries.
.

Resident Loser
09-12-2005, 06:07 AM
...I would tend to agree with what you have posted...I do take exception with the concept that there can exist some sort of "benign" bondage as practiced by Africans vs. that of the Europeans in the western hemisphere; particularly since many of the slaves were taken as a result of tribal raids and were viewed as the spoils of war. This to me does not seem to be a kinder, gentler slavery. Additionally, given (a)the current conditions in some African nations, even today, wherein a slave caste exists and masters will "give" bellah children(or any slave they see fit) as gifts (b) the disruptive or bellicose are still beaten or maimed as required to keep order and (c) female slaves are raped at will, are we to assume that these are some new twists to the abominable practice? I think not, but that's neither here nor there.

If this dialog has caused a further investigation and opened your eyes to something that you never thought possible, it's purpose has been served...you have earned my respect for for that investigation and above all for admitting to the fact that there are things to be learned and that we all need to do so.

So whether it's on the subject of wire or whatever, I stand by the thought...I'm not asking anyone to think as I do, just simply to think.

jimHJJ(...pax vobiscum...)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-12-2005, 07:35 AM
...I would tend to agree with what you have posted...I do take exception with the concept that there can exist some sort of "benign" bondage as practiced by Africans vs. that of the Europeans in the western hemisphere; particularly since many of the slaves were taken as a result of tribal raids and were viewed as the spoils of war. This to me does not seem to be a kinder, gentler slavery.

What made African slavery kinder and gentler was the fact that racism was not a key ingredient. Also, there were unwritten rules and guildlines that existed between the slaves and their slave masters that didn't exist between America slavemasters. The psychological damage of the white slave masters in America telling slaves that they are inferior in all ways, renaming them, not allowing them to practice their religion was a new deminision is slavery that never existed before. The long trip across the atlantic, combined with the former mentioned, and the butality is what contributed to the "uniqueness" of America slavery.




Additionally, given (a)the current conditions in some African nations, even today, wherein a slave caste exists and masters will "give" bellah children(or any slave they see fit) as gifts (b) the disruptive or bellicose are still beaten or maimed as required to keep order and (c) female slaves are raped at will, are we to assume that these are some new twists to the abominable practice? I think not, but that's neither here nor there.

While females were still at the mercy of the african slave master, only the THREAT of violence was needed to keep men in check. Also there was no stripping away of ones own self indentity, and each slaves WAS allowed to practice their religion. Violence was not a mainstay of African slavery. However with American slavery's practice of killing one self indentity, racism, and the level of violence exacted on the slaves really provoked slaves to run from the slavemasters, sometimes multiple times. The more oppressed the slave, the more the desire to bolt, the more violence exacted on the slave. This is a very unique and violent circle that often played out over a slaves life, or until he was sold.




If this dialog has caused a further investigation and opened your eyes to something that you never thought possible, it's purpose has been served...you have earned my respect for for that investigation and above all for admitting to the fact that there are things to be learned and that we all need to do so.

Being as I am a latino who grew up with a family of black Americans, it was probably about time I tried to understand slavery impact on the black race. While I already knew that slavery in Africa was VERY different than slavery here in America, what I didn't know was the extent of blacks owning slaves. That was eye opening. However it was my thought that if a black slave was owned by a black slavemaster, then there lives were way better than if owned by a white slavemaster. That was confirmed by my Aunt, and by the book I read.


So whether it's on the subject of wire or whatever, I stand by the thought...I'm not asking anyone to think as I do, just simply to think.

jimHJJ(...pax vobiscum...)

I am always a thinker and not much of a sheeple. This has often pissed folks off.

shokhead
09-12-2005, 08:19 AM
This is all nice but its in the past and we need to move on with it.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-12-2005, 08:32 AM
This is all nice but its in the past and we need to move on with it.

This is exactly the response that leads nowhere. How do you just move on without addressing the issues of inequality that exist today? That answer is significantly more envolved than just "let's move on",

shokhead
09-12-2005, 09:35 AM
This is exactly the response that leads nowhere. How do you just move on without addressing the issues of inequality that exist today? That answer is significantly more envolved than just "let's move on",

Because we keep talking and talking and talking and everybody who counts agree it was wrong{slavery} and us white people really dropped the ball but it happeded so lets move on.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-12-2005, 10:13 AM
Because we keep talking and talking and talking and everybody who counts agree it was wrong{slavery} and us white people really dropped the ball but it happeded so lets move on.

You didn't answer my question. How do you just move on when inequality still exist?

kexodusc
09-12-2005, 11:08 AM
You didn't answer my question. How do you just move on when inequality still exist?

And now we arrive at the paradox. What would it take to satisfy all parties involved? I doubt anyone has the solution. Maybe it's not possible. I think true equality among different peoples is impossible. The best you can strive for is tolerance and flexibility, knowing there will be some bumps on the road. This requires patience from all sides when something goes wrong.

I think it is America's destiny to be defined and haunted by its history. Eliminating all inequalities is a cause for which I'm not sure Americans of any color, race, or creed are prepared to make the sacrifice it would require. A people would have to abandon their culture, their history, and become assimilated. If you truly poured everything into one pot, and stirred, whatever came out should be more or less equal. But does everyone unanimously want that? Not likely.

Most white folk I know have never owned a slave, killed an indian or contributed to either.
Most white people I know are no more racists than my indian family, my hispanic friends, black friends, chinese friends, etc. Yet they carry the burden of being from the responsible party in this country. I don't see how they can ever escape this. And I feel this is unfair to the white people born in this country. This burden they carry will only happen when the significance of these past events is forgotten. And that won't happen as long as the lessons of this history remain too important to forget.

When any people made their way to America, they brought with them their values and beliefs. It's not an unnatural phenomenon that certain peoples segregated themselves, either by choice or by force. Inevitably, differences in values and beliefs can cause disagreements. Some more grave than others. To some cultures, compromise is not acceptable. And expecting those people to compromise or else would show intolerance by the other party. The unstoppable force meeting the unmoveable object.

It's not just a race thing, or color thing...white Christians have been kicking the crap out of each other for hundreds of years now. And it's not just Christians...Muslims, Jews, everyone...humans just like making reasons to fight themselves.

Equality is an ideal to strive for, though I cannot think of one nation, one people, one society ever in history where true, universal equality has endured. Those that have achieved this ideal even briefly seem to find themselves conquered by oppressors. Not good either.

At the same time, it's unfair to ask any people to abandon the lessons of history, and move forward. You can't just tell the black community to "get over it". It's not as easy as saying "okay, we're equal now, move on". That's fine until the first time it's tested.

The old saying "time heals" is probably accurate, but at the same time isn't much consolation to those unfortunate enough to be victims.

So, where do we go next?

GMichael
09-12-2005, 11:25 AM
And now we arrive at the paradox. What would it take to satisfy all parties involved? I doubt anyone has the solution. Maybe it's not possible. I think true equality among different peoples is impossible. The best you can strive for is tolerance and flexibility, knowing there will be some bumps on the road. This requires patience from all sides when something goes wrong.

I think it is America's destiny to be defined and haunted by its history. Eliminating all inequalities is a cause for which I'm not sure Americans of any color, race, or creed are prepared to make the sacrifice it would require. A people would have to abandon their culture, their history, and become assimilated. If you truly poured everything into one pot, and stirred, whatever came out should be more or less equal. But does everyone unanimously want that? Not likely.

Most white folk I know have never owned a slave, killed an indian or contributed to either.
Most white people I know are no more racists than my indian family, my hispanic friends, black friends, chinese friends, etc. Yet they carry the burden of being from the responsible party in this country. I don't see how they can ever escape this. And I feel this is unfair to the white people born in this country. This burden they carry will only happen when the significance of these past events is forgotten. And that won't happen as long as the lessons of this history remain too important to forget.

When any people made their way to America, they brought with them their values and beliefs. It's not an unnatural phenomenon that certain peoples segregated themselves, either by choice or by force. Inevitably, differences in values and beliefs can cause disagreements. Some more grave than others. To some cultures, compromise is not acceptable. And expecting those people to compromise or else would show intolerance by the other party. The unstoppable force meeting the unmoveable object.

It's not just a race thing, or color thing...white Christians have been kicking the crap out of each other for hundreds of years now. And it's not just Christians...Muslims, Jews, everyone...humans just like making reasons to fight themselves.

Equality is an ideal to strive for, though I cannot think of one nation, one people, one society ever in history where true, universal equality has endured. Those that have achieved this ideal even briefly seem to find themselves conquered by oppressors. Not good either.

At the same time, it's unfair to ask any people to abandon the lessons of history, and move forward. You can't just tell the black community to "get over it". It's not as easy as saying "okay, we're equal now, move on". That's fine until the first time it's tested.

The old saying "time heals" is probably accurate, but at the same time isn't much consolation to those unfortunate enough to be victims.

So, where do we go next?

We try:

We try to forget (what has happened to us)
We try to remember (what we did to others)
We try to turn the other cheek.
We try to forgive those who can't turn the other cheek yet.
We try to get our govenments to try to understand.
We try to treat others as we would like to be treated.
We try to understand that others don't feel the same, or think the same.
We try to do better.
We try not to loose hope when we see others who don't seem to be trying.
We try to, keep trying.

piece-it pete
09-12-2005, 12:10 PM
[edit: in reply to Shoks' post]

Reminds me of Pumba:

"Put your behind in the past".

:D

Shokker I know that not all cops are racist, and said: "Police are generally there to get bad guys".

But many white folks (crackers? or do you prefer honkies ;) ) don't really believe there's racist cops out there - they see everything from their somewhat naive viewpoint :yes: .

I thought it was pretty well known that the LAPD had an issue with institutional racism. Am I mistaken?

T thanks for the excellent post. I too believe that American slavery was somewhat different than much historical slavery, because it was so easy to demonize the different skin color, and so much harder for those folks to assimilate into general society.

Another sidenote: Some people use certain comments by Lincoln to "prove" he was a racist himself. This however is not true (as shown by Fredrick Douglasses' comment "He was the greatest man [pete note: not just president] that ever lived"). The only reason he advocated an African colony for former slaves was that he believed that whites would NEVER allow interracial marriage (a reasonable belief at the time), so then would never be assimilated and therefore always treated as second class citizens. So the colony idea was only trying to make the best of a bad situation.

All that said, there is no doubt that there did exist situations AT LEAST as bad in the past - slaves in the US were generally fed. There's a couple of issues that make our situation seem worse than the admittedly awful truth: proximity in time, and our overall success at both the slave economy (sadly) and as a country/society (we stand out in history, and still exist).

I would like to know what books were rec'd - I read a lot of history - could you clue me in?

Thanks,

Pete

piece-it pete
09-12-2005, 12:15 PM
Whoops, I'm slow as usual.

kex that is very good. I don't believe a completely colorblind society is possible and am not even convinced that some racial pride is a bad thing (if it's not at the expense of others).

GM, I didn't know you were a poet ;) !

Pete

markw
09-12-2005, 12:45 PM
This is exactly the response that leads nowhere. How do you just move on without addressing the issues of inequality that exist today? That answer is significantly more envolved than just "let's move on",I think you should get off that high (dead) horse about the U S of A which legally abolished slavery about 140 years ago and, within the past 40-50 years has made great strides in mainlining blacks.

By maintaining your not too subtle anti-US white triad and ignoring these, you weaken your case and appear to be less unbiased than you want to appear. Again, please take into account that black Africans were sold to white Europeans by Africans knowing full well what awaited them.

If you really want something to get riled up about something you might actually be able to do something about today, I suggest you further research these articles and see where the real, current problem lies and, here’s a hint. It ain’t from yer basic American whitey. Continually beating that dead horse is now simply a convenient cop out.

Child slavery in Africa as of 2001

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/04/16/child.slavery/

Mauritania in 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4091579.stm


Overall Africa today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3652021.stm


and more...

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

Are these examples of that kinder, gentler black on black slavery tou talk about?

Get off of what happened (and was abolished) here 140 years ago and start doing something about where it’s still happening today. You’re starting to appear racist.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2005, 05:23 AM
I think you should get off that high (dead) horse about the U S of A which legally abolished slavery about 140 years ago and, within the past 40-50 years has made great strides in mainlining blacks.

By maintaining your not too subtle anti-US white triad and ignoring these, you weaken your case and appear to be less unbiased than you want to appear. Again, please take into account that black Africans were sold to white Europeans by Africans knowing full well what awaited them.

If you really want something to get riled up about something you might actually be able to do something about today, I suggest you further research these articles and see where the real, current problem lies and, here’s a hint. It ain’t from yer basic American whitey. Continually beating that dead horse is now simply a convenient cop out.

Child slavery in Africa as of 2001

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/04/16/child.slavery/

Mauritania in 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4091579.stm


Overall Africa today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3652021.stm


and more...

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

Are these examples of that kinder, gentler black on black slavery tou talk about?

Get off of what happened (and was abolished) here 140 years ago and start doing something about where it’s still happening today. You’re starting to appear racist.

First Mark, nobody is on a high horse. I am just trying to get some dialog going about a ongoing problem that exist even today. Stop being a bitter old fool, nobody is accusing anyone today of what happen hundreds of years ago. Racism was a problem back then, and it is still a problem today. Stay in context of the discussion, nobody is talking about slavery in Africa today, it is a whole different monster than what happen a thousand years ago. And stop trying to demonize the black race, nobody is trying to demonize the white race. Just because slavery was abolished doesn't mean that the mindset was. There are still whites to this day who believe that the white race is superior to the black race, haven't you ever heard of the BELL CURVE?

Your attempts to paint me as a racist just because I bring up the topic, and choose to discuss it is just plain stupid. If people were to continue with a thought process like yours race relations would get worse, and more polarized. Just not talking about racism doesn't make it go away, it just makes things worse. What I don't understand is why there are some whites that can openly talk about this issue intelligently, and others just feel guilty and want to run away from. What the hell are you scared of? Why would you feel guilty?

Why in the hell would I take over a cause in Africa when I live in America. Why would even try and deal with something so far away when racism still exist RIGHT WHERE LIVE?? I always believed that you start at home first, and work your way out. Can you explain the logic of addressing slavery in other countries, when racism hasn't been effectively dealt with here?

To fully understand the problems that blacks have in this country, hear what a sucessful black man has to say about race relations back in 1991

http://www.cpjustice.org/stories/storyReader$1024

After reading that(which is one person perspective, but many's belief) how can one justify looking across the water at their problems, while overlooking what is happening in my own backyard?

I am not on this subject just to demonize whites past or present. So can't we discuss this WITHOUT all of the guilt, and desire to sweep it away to avoid the guilt? It is up to those that live in countries that have slavery to take care of their issues. I live in America, and slavery is not our issue. Racism is.

shokhead
09-13-2005, 05:46 AM
Racism is, but its not for everybody. Whites are always being told not to lump everybody{blacks} into what a few do but when its the other way around,its whites people{all of them}. Why dont we talk abit about reverse ? Nobody wants to talk about that because most blacks dont belive in it. So lets get real,racism is her to stay,it cant go way,it can get less,but it wont go away because its in all of us.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2005, 07:03 AM
Racism is, but its not for everybody. Whites are always being told not to lump everybody{blacks} into what a few do but when its the other way around,its whites people{all of them}. Why dont we talk abit about reverse ? Nobody wants to talk about that because most blacks dont belive in it. So lets get real,racism is her to stay,it cant go way,it can get less,but it wont go away because its in all of us.

Unfortunely Shokhead blacks are not at the top of the heap. Whatever racism they have(and I do not approve of it either) is largely vapor, as it will never effect whites in a meaningful way. If blacks where in charge, the racism they would have would profoundly effect whites.

Racism does not have to exist. It is not a requirement of life to be racist. It can, and probably will die away someday, but not if everyone has a defeatist attitude, runs away from the issue, or likes the status quo.

markw
09-13-2005, 07:36 AM
Now, since you don't want to talk about slavery, at least anymore, we'll concentrate in mainlining all peoples nto this country.

Mr Skinner seems to want to not want to integrate and that, my friend, is the problem that was brought up earlier in this thread. He seems to want a "separate but equal" situation.

Well, why not just create a separate city for him and his followers? The Spanish also seem to be trying essentially the same thing by refusing to speak English to such an extent that it's crippling the schools systems. Why not them? Granted, there are other languages but the Spanish are the biggest lot.

I'll never understand how the other nationalties managed (and still do) to learn the language, maintain their cultural identities and still blend peacefully with mainstream America.

This is not good. The country as a whole had been going out it's way to bring black (and other) hyphenated Americans up to speed, particularly since the 60's. What with EEOC, affirmitive action, the SBA and the like, there are many educational and professional advantages offered. All one needs do is ask for it.

And, in many cases they were given preferential treatment over us crackers but I got over that.

But, some (not all) residents in the inner cities choose to not avail themselves of these. Parents, on the whole, want better for their children than they had for themselves. One wouldthink they would assure that the kids get the most out of the educational system. I know people (black, brown and white) who have gone through Newark's public school system in the 60's and came out ready to attend the finest colleges around. Two friends now teach there

This worked 'cause momma and poppa would whup the kid's butt if he didn't do his homework and get good grades. But, you can bet that kid is reaping the benefits today.

...and I deal daily with others of color who have managed to educate themselves and are now passing that on to their kids.

Now, here's a guy saying that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

What does he want? If he wants to talk about a particular segment of socicity, then he better damn sure that that segment does what it needs to bring itself up to snuff and not blame outside influences. Those days are over.

And, no he does NOT know me. I doubt he knows whites as much as hesays he does. He may know enough to manipilate opinions about himself but, if he really, really wanted to make a difference, he would educate those of his own kind that hold his own people down. ...but they don't want to hear that. They want to blame everyone except themselves.

Now that, my friend, is what I have problems with. Not color, not culture, but the unwillingness to take responsibility for ones own actions, work to improve oneself and blend into the existing sococity.

I think that you, and many others, may be mistaking this for racisim, but that's not my problem.

Resident Loser
09-13-2005, 08:04 AM
...my maternal grandmother would would say, as she slapped the kids in the head(this, of course was well before parental corporal punishment was a criminal act...ah! progress), "You in Amereeca, talk Amereecan" whenever they would lapse into the mother tongue...that no longer happens...no, no, no...now we must celebrate "diversity" and make some sort of allowances for ALL that it entails...

Used to be a phrase" When in Rome..." all that's out the window...now we see bumper stickers and other artifacts extolling the virtues of from whence they come...well, IMO if it's so all-fired good and worthy of your accolades...why did you leave...better yet, WHAT THE FORK ARE YOU DOING HERE?

Someone earlier mentioned the "balkanization" of America...it's no longer simple immigration, it's a bloody invasion...things change overnight and there is little or no incentive to "Americanize" because unlike previous eras it ain't PC not to be PC...

Along the line I was accused of being bitter...he!! BITTER...hardly, I'm laffin' my ass off...I'll be dust in the wind in 25yrs. or so but these "one worlders" or what ever the frog they are will be stuck with the place America will have become...the idealism of youth will be replaced by the realities of life in short order...

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...

jimHJJ(...I've said it well before this, I have seen the future and I'm glad I'll be dead...)

shokhead
09-13-2005, 08:55 AM
Spanish parents do not want there kids{for the most part} to speak english. This is first hand info.
Its easier to blame schools for there kids lack of education then to be helpful and make there kid do homework. Its all about what is easiet for the parent. All this is first hand info onb my part and takes place in low rent area. We have a free program at my school for spanish speeking parents 2 days aweek to learn some basic english. Its only ok if they come if the husband says its ok and we provide baby sitting. The men dont watch the kids. Now many of the parents are REALLY pissed at us because of 2 rules of us baby sitting. The kid has to be able to walk and we dont do diapers. The parents that watch the kids do it for free. I cant tell you how pissed some of the parents get because we dont change diapers. Also does anyone know of a law that says because you are poor ,you have to be a pig. Why are poor areas so dam dirty with trash? I know one thing. At my school,the parents tell the kids,dont worry about it,they have someone cleaning up the school. ME!.

Resident Loser
09-13-2005, 09:23 AM
What I don't understand is why there are some whites that can openly talk about this issue intelligently, and others just feel guilty and want to run away from. What the hell are you scared of? Why would you feel guilty?

What do you consider intelligent discourse re: the subject? Engagement with some poor PC white-boy that's been brow-beaten by the media and others into agreeing with your POV, would be my guess.


Why in the hell would I take over a cause in Africa when I live in America. Why would even try and deal with something so far away when racism still exist RIGHT WHERE LIVE?? I always believed that you start at home first, and work your way out. Can you explain the logic of addressing slavery in other countries, when racism hasn't been effectively dealt with here?

We, or rather I, began in an attempt to address your assertion that slavery is strictly the responsibility of the white Europeans who ran through Africa with butterfly nets collecting specimens. The logic in addressing contemporary conditions is fairly evident to anyone seeking out the roots of the problem.


To fully understand the problems that blacks have in this country, hear what a sucessful black man has to say about race relations back in 1991

And I'm sure there's not one bit of bias in that reference...yep just as sure as there is no bias in something penned by the Grand Wizard Dragon of the KKK...if it's in print, it must be true...


I live in America, and slavery is not our issue.

Then stop bringing it up as it will be responded to and addressed.

And on a related issue:

The Taino Indians, who came from South America, inhabited a large portion of Puerto Rico when the Spaniards arrived. In 1501 the Spanish Crown permitted the export of slaves to the Americas and in 1503 the first slaves arrived in Hispaniola. In 1508, Spanish colonization of PR began in earnest. Despite the protests of several priests, the natives were soon reduced to a condition of abject slavery, were considered inferior and subhuman and forced to work under the threat of corporal punishment and death. The natives attempted a revolt but under orders from Ponce de Leon 6000 of them were shot and survivors fled to the mountains or left the island. In 1513 African slaves were introduced to the Island. In 1517 King Carlos V authorized the importation of 4000 additional slaves to the Caribbean. There is no reason to assume that like situatutions did not occur throughout the region...so unless one can trace their ancestry directly to the subjugated Taino's or other aboriginal peoples(or the priests), there is a high probability that anyone claiming Latino(that is Spanish-American)roots has a legacy of complicity to some extent.

jimHJJ(...FYI...)

piece-it pete
09-13-2005, 09:39 AM
"The ink is black. The page is white. Together we learn to read and write." Three Dog Night

"Black and white can live and work together." Captain Kirk

"Ebony and ivory, live together in perfect harmony." McCartney & Wonder

Ladies and Gentlemen, this concludes our diversity training for today. All three statements are correct, if you remember that McCartney and Wonder were talking about piano keys.

Pete

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2005, 10:25 AM
What do you consider intelligent discourse re: the subject? Engagement with some poor PC white-boy that's been brow-beaten by the media and others into agreeing with your POV, would be my guess.

Sorry, but the media is on the side of the racist. So far the only brow beating going on are the kinds of stereotypical bull that you have pulled out of your hat directed at blacks.




We, or rather I, began in an attempt to address your assertion that slavery is strictly the responsibility of the white Europeans who ran through Africa with butterfly nets collecting specimens. The logic in addressing contemporary conditions is fairly evident to anyone seeking out the roots of the problem.

Slavery in general is financial gain. In America it was financial gain, racism, and general cruelty. The racism part of the equation in unique to American slavery. What is happening now is purely financial gain, not racism. I never said europeans were strictly responsible for slavery, I said they were responsible for the cruelty(the trip accross the atlantic) and the racism. That is a fact. What is happening now is cruel, but not racial.




And I'm sure there's not one bit of bias in that reference...yep just as sure as there is no bias in something penned by the Grand Wizard Dragon of the KKK...if it's in print, it must be true...

Never said it was true of false. This is an opinion that many blacks share, this is the life they lead daily. This is their life, if you called that biased, oh well. So should we call an opposing opinion biased also?




Then stop bringing it up as it will be responded to and addressed.

Yea, I am sure God put you in charge of that.


And on a related issue:

The Taino Indians, who came from South America, inhabited a large portion of Puerto Rico when the Spaniards arrived. In 1501 the Spanish Crown permitted the export of slaves to the Americas and in 1503 the first slaves arrived in Hispaniola. In 1508, Spanish colonization of PR began in earnest. Despite the protests of several priests, the natives were soon reduced to a condition of abject slavery, were considered inferior and subhuman and forced to work under the threat of corporal punishment and death. The natives attempted a revolt but under orders from Ponce de Leon 6000 of them were shot and survivors fled to the mountains or left the island. In 1513 African slaves were introduced to the Island. In 1517 King Carlos V authorized the importation of 4000 additional slaves to the Caribbean. There is no reason to assume that like situatutions did not occur throughout the region...so unless one can trace their ancestry directly to the subjugated Taino's or other aboriginal peoples(or the priests), there is a high probability that anyone claiming Latino(that is Spanish-American)roots has a legacy of complicity to some extent.

jimHJJ(...FYI...)

Sorry, doesn't fly here. I know for a fact my family was not involved in slavery in any way. Can you say that about yours?

Resident Loser
09-13-2005, 10:54 AM
...probably arrived in the very late 1890s or early 1900s from eastern Europe I can say absoluely not...if anything my European ancestors were more than likely serfs, vassals or slave labor of the invaders du jour...


...The racism part of the equation in unique to American slavery. What is happening now is purely financial gain, not racism...I know for a fact my family was not involved in slavery in any way. Can you say that about yours?

Nope. Sorry it isn't. See my reference to the Taino...slavery always involves the self-delusion of superiority...in most cases this is based on race.

Not racism?...well It's tribal or class distinction of some sort...just a hop skip and a jump away. See "superiority" above...

As stated, unless one is of aboriginal or slave descent, it was the military, the landowners or any of the supporting cast of characters who subjugated and inhabited the Carribean, Central and South America. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Yes, I can...

jimHJJ(...in fact I already did...)

markw
09-13-2005, 10:56 AM
I know for a fact my family was not involved in slavery in any way. Can you say that about yours?Since my great grandparents came over from Germany in the late 1800's I'd have to say that Yes, I can say that my ancestors were not involved in slavery.

But, they did start learning to speak English as soon as they got off the boat and their children (my grandparents) learned and spoke english as their first language and German only in the house. ...and they settled in Newark, NJ. Not exactly a hotbed of slavery at any time in history. As a time reference, my (mother's side) grandfather married my grandmother in 1902 so you can count back from there.

GMichael
09-13-2005, 11:04 AM
They were involved with a little something called World War II. Please don't make me go into those details. Racism to a whole new level. But slavery? I don't think so.

piece-it pete
09-13-2005, 12:02 PM
Brother with the amount of interracial fooling around for since time began, and slaveries' being around for millenia, I doubt you can say with certainty that your ancestors were not affiliated with slaveowning in any way.

Of course, that really doesn't matter, because bloodlines are meaningless - right?

My experience is that the media is on the side of the ratings. This usually means an almost sob-story attitude towards everything, this reflects mass attitudes. Most media types come from that wonderful ivory tower, and something rediculous like 80% of all reporters, print and tv, are Democrats.

Racism is not confined to American slavery, although it might be the biggest example of it by volume.

RL I do believe you are calling butterfly collectors racist. I for one am against this kind of naturalist profiling. EVERYONE knows it's the bleedin' botanists.

Pete

GMichael
09-13-2005, 12:24 PM
Brother with the amount of interracial fooling around for since time began, and slaveries' being around for millenia, I doubt you can say with certainty that your ancestors were not affiliated with slaveowning in any way.

Of course, that really doesn't matter, because bloodlines are meaningless - right?

My experience is that the media is on the side of the ratings. This usually means an almost sob-story attitude towards everything, this reflects mass attitudes. Most media types come from that wonderful ivory tower, and something rediculous like 80% of all reporters, print and tv, are Democrats.

Racism is not confined to American slavery, although it might be the biggest example of it by volume.

RL I do believe you are calling butterfly collectors racist. I for one am against this kind of naturalist profiling. EVERYONE knows it's the bleedin' botanists.

Pete

I have to agree with, "media is on the side of the ratings." Anything to get more viewers. Shock people, embarrass people, twist the truth, twist lies into bigger lies, etc. Doesn't matter if it pits everyone against eachother or not.
I often wonder how they manage to smile so much as they interview a man who had his wife ripped from his arms and has nothing left but the cloths on his back and 3 children to feed. And it doesn't even look like a fake "keep a stiff upper lip" kind of smile either. It's more like a "boy am I gonna make a name for myself with this" look.

Can you sing "Dirty Laundry" with me?

piece-it pete
09-13-2005, 12:43 PM
Can you sing "Dirty Laundry" with me?

With pleasure, sir.

Pete

shokhead
09-13-2005, 12:45 PM
Oh i'm sure i had somebody back when doing the slavery thing. I however have not so dont hold be over the coles for what they did.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2005, 01:43 PM
Now, since you don't want to talk about slavery, at least anymore, we'll concentrate in mainlining all peoples nto this country.

Where did you get all peoples? I never mentioned all peoples, aren't you being just a little over the top?


Mr Skinner seems to want to not want to integrate and that, my friend, is the problem that was brought up earlier in this thread. He seems to want a "separate but equal" situation.

Well, why not just create a separate city for him and his followers? The Spanish also seem to be trying essentially the same thing by refusing to speak English to such an extent that it's crippling the schools systems. Why not them? Granted, there are other languages but the Spanish are the biggest lot.

Did you really read what he said? He said that attempts to integrate have failed because the rules keep changing. As soon as blacks learn the rules, they are changed. America tells blacks and Latino's "get an education", and when they do, go out and work for corporate America, they are met with the well documented glass ceiling. What he is saying(and what alot of black educated professionals are saying) is the call to integrate is not genuine. With hundreds, if not thousands of black professionals with BA and MBA's out there, why is it that there are only three CEO on the list of leaders of fortune 500 companies, and zero for latins?

http://www.hispaniconline.com/magazine/2004/dec/Business/



I'll never understand how the other nationalties managed (and still do) to learn the language, maintain their cultural identities and still blend peacefully with mainstream America.

Did it ever occur to you they are not? When you come to this country, you are essentially ask to shed your culture, and take on the "American" culture. That means no native language unless you are at home. My parents refused to let me speak spanish because they wanted me to learn english well. Guess what, there is so much about my culture I don't know because of it. You think they are blending when they are really losing their indentities.


This is not good. The country as a whole had been going out it's way to bring black (and other) hyphenated Americans up to speed, particularly since the 60's. What with EEOC, affirmitive action, the SBA and the like, there are many educational and professional advantages offered. All one needs do is ask for it.

Mark, did it ever occur to you that this is just your perception? America hasn't been working all that hard since the sixties or else we wouldn't be seeing the systematic roll backs of affirmative action before the goal of it was met. SBA is for the benefit of everyone who want to open a business, not just minorities. The EEOC doesn't have enought teeth to be effective. I know alot of white people who cannot afford college these days let alone blacks and hispanics.


And, in many cases they were given preferential treatment over us crackers but I got over that.

Remember, you guys had preferential treatment since this country got started. Maybe you don't remember those great white only water fountains, hotels, concert halls, schools, you name it. The preferential treatment was to try and get a balance, but when whites started to become affected by the preferential treatment, they brought it to a halt(see prop 209 in California). This is the fallacy of your brand of integration, it only will work as long as the status quo loses nothing in the process. When they began to lose, the bring the process to a halt.


But, some (not all) residents in the inner cities choose to not avail themselves of these. Parents, on the whole, want better for their children than they had for themselves. One wouldthink they would assure that the kids get the most out of the educational system. I know people (black, brown and white) who have gone through Newark's public school system in the 60's and came out ready to attend the finest colleges around. Two friends now teach there

How do you know it is a choice? Did you ask them? The educational system is part of the problem. Rich school get the best, poor schools get the worst. The educational system is not equal for everyone, and that is were the problem begins.


This worked 'cause momma and poppa would whup the kid's butt if he didn't do his homework and get good grades. But, you can bet that kid is reaping the benefits today.

Well now adays the parents are just as wupped as the kids. With the continued disintergration of the middle class, it is getting harder for parents to find the energy to wupp the kids, and that is part of another piece of the problem.


...and I deal daily with others of color who have managed to educate themselves and are now passing that on to their kids.

If your world was representative of the entire world, we would be having this discussion.


Now, here's a guy saying that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

I don't believe he ever stated that blacks are to hate whites, he just says that because of the apparent failure of integration that blacks have to depend on themselves. That seems logical to me.


What does he want?

I believe TRUE equality, and not the half hearted stuff that is the status quo right now.




If he wants to talk about a particular segment of socicity, then he better damn sure that that segment does what it needs to bring itself up to snuff and not blame outside influences. Those days are over.

When they tried, they were introduced to the glass ceiling. When will that be over?


And, no he does NOT know me. I doubt he knows whites as much as hesays he does. He may know enough to manipilate opinions about himself but, if he really, really wanted to make a difference, he would educate those of his own kind that hold his own people down. ...but they don't want to hear that. They want to blame everyone except themselves.

Now you are attacking him just because he points out some deficiencies in America business. Instead of listening to what he is saying(which most educated blacks believe) you just dismiss him, and call into question his motive. This is why dealing with racism is so frustrating. Well I guess America is perfect, all blacks and Latino are failures. The system is perfect, and the people are flawed. That is if we listened to you.


Now that, my friend, is what I have problems with. Not color, not culture, but the unwillingness to take responsibility for ones own actions, work to improve oneself and blend into the existing sococity.

I think that you, and many others, may be mistaking this for racisim, but that's not my problem.

Then if your problem is not taking responsibilty, then you should have no problem with acknowledging that there maybe a problem with the system, and not the people. Here are some facts.

According to the American Medical Associationw whites get better health care in this country than blacks and latino's. Who takes responsibility for that?

Blacks and latino's are steered to special ed classes at more than 5 times the rates of whites even thought they do not belong there. That is according to the ATA. They state this is because of lack of understanding of these cultures by a profession dominated by whites. Who takes responsibility for this?

Blacks and latino's get stiffer punishments than whites for doing the same crime according to the American Bar Association. Who takes responsibility for this?

If you still believe that the blacks and latino's are the problem and not the system, then you pretty have your head buried in the sand.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2005, 02:00 PM
Brother with the amount of interracial fooling around for since time began, and slaveries' being around for millenia, I doubt you can say with certainty that your ancestors were not affiliated with slaveowning in any way.

You can if you actually checked rather than thought about it.



Of course, that really doesn't matter, because bloodlines are meaningless - right?

Mine isn't, is yours?


My experience is that the media is on the side of the ratings. This usually means an almost sob-story attitude towards everything, this reflects mass attitudes. Most media types come from that wonderful ivory tower, and something rediculous like 80% of all reporters, print and tv, are Democrats.

What does that have to do with anything? Since when does party affiliation play a role in what they report?


Racism is not confined to American slavery, although it might be the biggest example of it by volume.


Pete

According to what I have studied over the weekend, it was at that time. Before American slavery, race was not a issue with slavery. The Americans introduced that into the mix. I gleaned that from at least two books I came accross. Superiority may have come into the mix before, but race(specifically) was not. My readings do not support RL assertions at all.

markw
09-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Remember, you're talking to someone who spends quite a bit of time in Newark and with educators. My view just might be a little skewed by the harsh reality of the situation.

The fact that you, and many others of color as well, made it simply proves that the opportunity is there. If others choose to not avail themselves of it, then that's their problem, not yours or mine. As for my responsibility, I do my part. Like a drowning man, I'll extend my hand to try to help him but I'll be damned if I'll let him pull me in to drown with him. By simply helping them blaming everyone else, you're simply trying to legitimize their failure.

It's all in the education system and the parent's willingness to exploit it to their (children's) advantage. They spend more per child to educate those in Newark than in any of the lily white cities surrounding it. They still have to take the same tests as those in the other communities. And, even with extra funding and care, most still show up at the bottom of the heap. It does help if they attend class, listen, learn and not simply spend time there when it suits them.

Ah, but then there's always those exceptions that do use what's offered them wisely and spread their wings and fly... Bless 'em because they will go far and become part of the American tapestry.

As far as your assertions here, well,,,

"According to the American Medical Association whites get better health care in this country than blacks and latino's. Who takes responsibility for that?"

Well, my job offers some (dwindling) benefits and I pay for a goodly portion of my health care. I do believe we all have this option, no?

"Blacks and latino's are steered to special ed classes at more than 5 times the rates of whites even thought they do not belong there. That is according to the ATA. They state this is because of lack of understanding of these cultures by a profession dominated by whites. Who takes responsibility for this?"

It's funny you mention this. Both educators I know in Newark are black and are there by their choice. One is a recognized leader in ASL, where real integration problems exist.

Nice dig implying that they are incapable of finding employment elsewhere, though. I can see from this thread that you see the best defense is a good offense.

Remember, the culture in effect here is that of America, not of their native land. Love it or leave it. If their homeland culture is so great, then they should have stayed there.

Also some of this be a lack of familiarity with the language of the land or a willingness to assimilate? Most definitely for the Latinos you mention. As for the blacks there, didja ever try to understand how they communicate on the street? It's a different language than we are using. When in Rome, ya know?

You saw the movie Airplane, right?

"Blacks and latino's get stiffer punishments than whites for doing the same crime according to the American Bar Association. Who takes responsibility for this?"

That you have to take up with their defense attorneys. Most that I've run into (black AND Latino. Remember, my inlaws are Brasilian and Dominican) have never had any run ins with the law that wasn't handled by sending in a fine.

Again, most other cultures, by the time the first generation was born here, were fully assimilated into society. This goes for the Europeans of the last century abut also for the modern Asians, Indians, others and, surprisingly, native Africans that choose to live here. They generally choose to distance themselves from many (not all) born here that look like them.

IOW, a lot of what you perceive as racial/cultural prejudice is simply society as a whole refusing to change to fit the expectations of those who don't want to fit in.

No, this isn't a perfect world and there is prejudice out there, but not every problem can be blamed on that. Some problems are of a more personal nature and change can only come from within. When that is accepted, we can move on to making it an even better place to live.

shokhead
09-13-2005, 03:21 PM
And i'll tell you what else is unfar, a school on the north side where half the kids dont speak english and one on the south side where most do and you know what. Both schools are expected to get the same great test scores. And when they dont and they wont,its the teachers and schools fault. Zero consideration is taken for so many students not speaking english. Ya wonder why teachers dont want to be in the poor side of town and teach in those schools. Mix in the parents that come to school in there fricken PJ's and pick up the kid the same way. Then of course you have the parents that drive big,brand new SUV's top of the line cars and oh ya,there kid is on the free lunch program. Oh,and those same kid when i tell them i get my shoes at payless,boy they wont NEVER buy there shoes there. How about some more about parents in the poor part of town,dropping off there kids at 6am,1 hour before anyony there to watch them,same kids there until after the playground is locked,4:30pm and they just hang around the outside of school. Now i can only compare this to 3 other schools i worked at in middle to middle/upper class areas and this just didnt happen. I was raised middle class and never really been around a poor area and when i started working there,i was floored. How and why do these people have to be like this. Why? It seems to many dont want to do anything and want and expect others to do just about everything. I dont get it.

Resident Loser
09-14-2005, 05:21 AM
...you're a real pistil...



RL I do believe you are calling butterfly collectors racist. I for one am against this kind of naturalist profiling. EVERYONE knows it's the bleedin' botanists.

Pete

I may be goin' out on a limb here, but many botanists are real Mendel-cases...it must be a scion of the times, but fir what it's worth there are those who HAVE turned over a new leaf...

jimHJJ(...I'll avoid taking a bough at this time...)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-14-2005, 05:55 AM
Remember, you're talking to someone who spends quite a bit of time in Newark and with educators. My view just might be a little skewed by the harsh reality of the situation.

I live in Oakland, which is much like Newark in many ways. I spend alot of time in Oakland schools myself mentoring students. I have seen first hand smart minority students steered in a direction that was actually damaging to their educational growth.


The fact that you, and many others of color as well, made it simply proves that the opportunity is there. If others choose to not avail themselves of it, then that's their problem, not yours or mine. As for my responsibility, I do my part. Like a drowning man, I'll extend my hand to try to help him but I'll be damned if I'll let him pull me in to drown with him. By simply helping them blaming everyone else, you're simply trying to legitimize their failure.

Mark, I made it because I got out of the system that actually held me back, and stunted my personal growth. Its called corporate America. When I decided to get back in, I was more aware of the system, and how to work within it. Alot of minorities don't have this luxury. I had a great education and attended a private boarding school. A great majority of minorities don't get this oportunity. Both of my parents did not have to work, just my dad did. Most minorities do not get this luxury either. I started life off in a position that 96% of minorities are not in. Life was easier for me than what is normal for most minorities. Mentoring really opened my eyes to the difficulties that most minorities face just getting to school.


It's all in the education system and the parent's willingness to exploit it to their (children's) advantage. They spend more per child to educate those in Newark than in any of the lilly white cities surrounding it. They still have to take the same tests as those in the other communities. And, even with extra funding and care, most still show up at the bottom of the heap. It does help if they attend class, listen, learn and not simply spend time there when it suits them.

Oakland unified spends less money per child than the neighboring city of Piedmont. Oakland unified went bankrupt two years ago while Piedmont unified just went to less students per teacher. Piedmont has a well financed music program while Oakland offers no music at all. Piedmont has no problem attracting quality teachers while Oakland cannot afford to hire them at all. Piedmont sends 90% of their graduating class to college, Oakland is less than 25%. Oakland is largely poor in the flatlands, and upper middle class in the hills. Piedmont is generally a wealthy community with houses costing a million or more. These cities are right next to each other, but life couldn't be more different.


Ah, but then there's always those exceptions that do use what's offered them wisely and spread their wings and fly... Bless 'em because they will go far and become part of the American tapestry.

Most spread their wings and have them clipped off once they get into the corporate "system". That is more the rule than the exception. Tom Skinner points this out specifically.


As far as your assertions here, well,,,

"According to the American Medical Associationw whites get better health care in this country than blacks and latino's. Who takes responsibility for that?"

Well, my job offers some (dwindling) benefits and I pay for a goodly portion of my health care. I do believe we all have this option, no?

Alot of jobs offer no benefits at all. This is becoming the norm because of the high cost of health coverage.


"Blacks and latino's are steered to special ed classes at more than 5 times the rates of whites even thought they do not belong there. That is according to the ATA. They state this is because of lack of understanding of these cultures by a profession dominated by whites. Who takes responsibility for this?"

It's funny you mention this. Both educators I know in Newark are black, but more on this later.

The majority of students in the Oakland unified school district are latino and black. The majority of teachers are white. The majority of students in the Los Angeles school district are latino and black, the majority of teachers are white. The majority of students in the Richmond school district are black, the majority of teachers are white. All of the school districts have a disproportionate amount of minority students in special ed courses that do not belong there.



Remember, the culture in effect here is that of Americia, not of their native land. Love it or leave it. If their homeland culture is so great, then they should have stayed there.

American culture is made up of a variety of cultures mixed together. Nobody told europeans when they settled here that if they didn't like what the native indians did to go back home. Remember, the indians were here first, they were swept away(some argue it was genocide) to make room for european settlers.


Also some of this be a lack of familiarity wirth the language of the land or a willingness to asimilate? Most definitely for the Latinos you mention. As for the blacks there, didja ever try to understand how they communicate on the street? It's a different language than we are using. When in Rome, ya know?

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

These are the words on the statue of liberty. Are you saying it should say send me your english speaking who are able to adopt to the culture that the majority set up, be able to take care of yourself no matter what, leave your culture and indentity behind, don't be poor, and learn fast. If you are of european decent you will do well, if you are from latin america or africa be ready for the glass ceiling and don't come here until you learn english.


You saw the movie Airplane, right?

No I haven't.


"Blacks and latino's get stiffer punishments than whites for doing the same crime according to the American Bar Association. Who takes responsibility for this?"

That you have to take up with their defense attorneys. Most that I've run into (black AND latino. Remember, my inlaws are Brasilian and Dominican) have never had any run ins with the law that wasn't handled by sending in a fine.

Defense attorneys??? You have got to be kidding. LOL, they get a public defender with 30 other clients. Its a fact that police department profile, and that they stop blacks and latino at a far greater rate than whites. I am a prime example of that. When I first started working in the film industry, I had a certain white Beverly Hills cop that stopped me twice a week at the same place just because I had a nice car. What about the many black men wrongfully accused of crimes they did not commit? As a minority you may not even do anything wrong, and can still land in jail.


Again, most other cultures, by the time the ffirst generation was born here, were fully asimilated into socity. This goes for the Europeans of the last century abut also for the modern Asians, Indians, others and, surprisingly, native Africans that choose to live here. They generally choose to distance themselves from many (not all) born here that look like them.

It is easier to assimulate into society if you are european. The so called American culture is based on european standards. But if you are not from europe, assimulation means to leave all vestiges of your indentity, and become like white people and just maybe you will do well.


No, this isn't a perfect world and there is prejiduce out there, but not every problem can be blamed on that. Some problems are ofa more personal nature and change can only come from within. When that is accepted, we can move on to making it an even better place to live.

You are right, SOME problems are internal. But to those who do not have problems that are of a internal nature here is a reality they have to face. While driving to work this morning I was listening to PBS, and I heard something on there that really blew my mind, and a hole in our entire belief system here in America. A study that was conducted over the last 50 years with somewhere around 5000-10,000 people showed that that class of which you were born in, is the class you will usually end up in as an adult. This was the most comprehensive study ever done on class and social structure in America. If you were born in a lower class family, you will probably remain in the lower class throughout your life. If you were born in the upper class, you will likely remain there the rest of your life. And the same for the middle class. People who have moved from the lower class to the middle class are the exception, not the norm according to this very comprehensive study. It also also well known that the lower class in this country just happen to be minorities, and the upper class is a white. The middle class consist of all races, but it is well known that it is dwindling quickly.

shokhead
09-14-2005, 06:29 AM
How many students in Oakland and how many in Piedmont. Might want to look up how much money is given to Piedmont by the parents and i'm betting it has much stronger PTA and fundraisers. Those thing make a big difference and you can blame the districts on that.

piece-it pete
09-14-2005, 06:32 AM
You can if you actually checked rather than thought about it.

T, Ha! How far back do your records go?



Mine isn't, is yours?

Good question. The answer is, I don't know - since my grandfather was determined to be an American, and then died when my father was 13, I know almost nothing of my main (paternal) bloodline. I am not a hyphenated American through choice (I could be if I wished - my mother was a foreign national).

I am one of those who have lost cultural ties through assimilation.


What does that have to do with anything? Since when does party affiliation play a role in what they report?

Oh, a lot, and very on topic in this thread. I've mentioned this before: in "Look Out, Whitey! Black Power's Gon' Get Your Mama!" by Julius Lester, he says that he'd rather sit down with southern sheriffs who'll say OK, let's see how we can work this out, instead of being told by Moynihan (his reference) OK, here's what we're GOING to do. The second comment is classic ivory tower attitude, prevalent in the press. I think it's interesting that the so called party of inclusion is home to these folks.

BTW, Lesters' response to Moynihan was "Bang bang, Mr. Moynihan, bang bang!".


According to what I have studied over the weekend, it was at that time. Before American slavery, race was not a issue with slavery. The Americans introduced that into the mix. I gleaned that from at least two books I came accross. Superiority may have come into the mix before, but race(specifically) was not. My readings do not support RL assertions at all.

"Race was not an issue with slavery"?! There is nothing new under the sun. My advice: keep reading.


Mark,

Have you ever heard how Ford handled his immigrant employees? Fascinating, and effective:

Their pay was $5.00/day (quite a lot at the time) but they only received $2.50 of it for one year. During that year, they had to live in corporate owned housing, which was regularly inspected to be sure they were living to "American" standards. They would also receive citizenship training.

At the end of their first year, they were given the citizenship test and if passed received the held-back $2.50/day in a lump sum, a suit, and a handshake - they had been taught how to be Americans.

Shok long ago I read a book by the superintendant of Cleveland schools from the turn of the century, when the public schools here were the best in the country. One quote sticks in my head: "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". It was not in a racial context. Can you imagine someone saying that now?

The poor areas are so different from the society we know (in one of Sades' songs she says "One day, we're gonna wake up... to gettos all around. All over. Have mercy." It always makes me feel sad - she manages to put that despair into her voice). The phrase "deserving poor" used to be part and parcel of welfare - get the good people out. Now we're not allowed to use discretion - it is somehow unConstitutional.

Pete

markw
09-14-2005, 06:44 AM
I live in Oakland, which is much like Newark in many ways. I spend alot of time in Oakland schools myself mentoring students. I have seen first hand smart minority students steered in a direction that was actually damaging to their educational growth.Good. You're making a valuable contribution to people of all races here. More like you and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

As you point out somewhere, ignorance of cultural differences is one thing that you can correct in your role here. Malice is another story and I think you may be confusing the two. I strongly hope that no educator would knowingly steer a student wrong.

I hope your role is hehping them fit in to the system, not telling them how to finagle it to their own end, thereby giving mainstream America more to hold against them.


Mark, I made it because I got out of the system that actually held me back, and stunted my personal growth. Its called corporate America. When I decided to get back in, I was more aware of the system, and how to work within it. Alot of minorities don't have this luxury. I had a great education and attended a private boarding school. A great majority of minorities don't get this oportunity. Both of my parents did not have to work, just my dad did. Most minorities do not get this luxury either. I started life off in a position that 96% of minorities are not in. Life was easier for me than what is normal for most minorities. Mentoring really opened my eyes to the difficulties that most minorities face just getting to school.

Oakland unified spends less money per child than the neighboring city of Piedmont. Oakland unified went bankrupt two years ago while Piedmont unified just went to less students per teacher. Piedmont has a well financed music program while Oakland offers no music at all. Piedmont has no problem attracting quality teachers while Oakland cannot afford to hire them at all. Piedmont sends 90% of their graduating class to college, Oakland is less than 25%. Oakland is largely poor in the flatlands, and upper middle class in the hills. Piedmont is generally a wealthy community with houses costing a million or more. These cities are right next to each other, but life couldn't be more different.

Most spread their wings and have them clipped off once they get into the corporate "system". That is more the rule than the exception. Tom Skinner points this out specifically. .Parents should be active in their children's education and more vocal in the school issues that face them. Once their children are fully able to communicate and their parents have worked with them to make sure they have learned their lessons, there should be no impediment to their education. I think Shokhead weighed in on this earlier.

Here in Newark, most parents dn't give a shiite and the test scores show it. Now, the Irobbound is a different animal.

.And, believe me, not having money,a proper education and the neeed connections is the kiss of death for poor/middle class whites, too. ...particularly when they reach middle age.



Alot of jobs offer no benefits at all. This is becoming the norm because of the high cost of health coverage..Believe it or not, this also affects poor and middle class whites as well.


The majority of students in the Oakland unified school district are latino and black. The majority of teachers are white. The majority of students in the Los Angeles school district are latino and black, the majority of teachers are white. The majority of students in the Richmond school district are black, the majority of teachers are white. So, you're saying that there are no minority teachers qualified to teach there? ...or, once they are educated they turn their backs on their own and expect whitey to do it all?


All of the school districts have a disproportionate amount of minority students in special ed courses that do not belong there.Please see second sentence in response to above paragraph.





American culture is made up of a variety of cultures mixed together. Nobody told europeans when they settled here that if they didn't like what the native indians did to go back home. Remember, the indians were here first, they were swept away(some argue it was genocide) to make room for european settlers.Moot point. The native Incas and Mayans didn't speak Spanish initially either.




"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

These are the words on the statue of liberty. Are you saying it should say send me your english speaking who are able to adopt to the culture that the majority set up, be able to take care of yourself no matter what, leave your culture and indentity behind, don't be poor, and learn fast. If you are of european decent you will do well, if you are from latin america or africa be ready for the glass ceiling and don't come here until you learn english..I think this is the crux of the problem. Up until the middle of the last century, virtually EVERYONE that came to this country was proud to be here and given a chance to be part of a growing nation where hard work was rewarded, They worked hard to blend in. the Irish had major problems when they first hit the shores but, within a generation or so they were fullty integrated. Yes, they spoke English but they did meet with prejudice. The Italians as well. ...and they did NOT speak English.

Nowhere does it say that all one has to do is simply show up, plop their lazy asses down, hide in a ghetto of their own making, stick their hands out, and we'll happily fork over for their (and their decenents) existance with no effort on their part and change our customs to make them feel more at home. Nope, if ya wanna be considered an equal you've got to join the team and contribute in a positive manner.

Don't expect river to drop it's level to accomodate the bridge.

Oh, rent Airplane. Being in movies for a living I can't see how you missed this one. It's a classic. Look for the jive talk scene.



Defense attorneys??? You have got to be kidding. LOL, they get a public defender with 30 other clients. Its a fact that police department profile, and that they stop blacks and latino at a far greater rate than whites. I am a prime example of that. When I first started working in the film industry, I had a certain white Beverly Hills cop that stopped me twice a week at the same place just because I had a nice car. What about the many black men wrongfully accused of crimes they did not commit? As a minority you may not even do anything wrong, and can still land in jail.Again, not a racial issue. Whites get piss poor attorneys when thy use the public defender system too.



It is easier to assimulate into society if you are european. The so called American culture is based on european standards. But if you are not from europe, assimulation means to leave all vestiges of your indentity, and become like white people and just maybe you will do well. Again, the Asians, Indians and even native Africans have having no problems. And, their children generally excell in schools as well. ...even moreso than the native born crackers in the same schools.



You are right, SOME problems are internal. But to those who do not have problems that are of a internal nature here is a reality they have to face. While driving to work this morning I was listening to PBS, and I heard something on there that really blew my mind, and a hole in our entire belief system here in America. A study that was conducted over the last 50 years with somewhere around 5000-10,000 people showed that that class of which you were born in, is the class you will usually end up in as an adult. This was the most comprehensive study ever done on class and social structure in America. If you were born in a lower class family, you will probably remain in the lower class throughout your life. If you were born in the upper class, you will likely remain there the rest of your life. And the same for the middle class. People who have moved from the lower class to the middle class are the exception, not the norm according to this very comprehensive study. It also also well known that the lower class in this country just happen to be minorities, and the upper class is a white. The middle class consist of all races, but it is well known that it is dwindling quickly.And, due to outsourcing and cheap third world labor, all races are affected by this.

shokhead
09-14-2005, 07:37 AM
BTW,how is Randy Ward up in Oakland?

Resident Loser
09-14-2005, 09:16 AM
I have seen first hand smart minority students steered in a direction that was actually damaging to their educational growth.

You have some examples of this? I'm not trying to be argumentative but if someone lacks even a basic proficiency in a particular endeavor, is it really fair to the individual to push them in a certain way or fair to the other members of the class to be held behind because of them?


...I made it because I got out of the system that actually held me back, and stunted my personal growth. Its called corporate America...

Sorry, Terrence...in this day of those supposedly non-existent corporate quotas and earlier examples blatant "tokenism" I find it difficult to believe that any reasonably qualified minority person is "held back" or "stunted" in any way...in fact, I have been a witness to the complete opposite..I've seen people who are lucky they can put one foot in front of the other without falling over get promotions they were not deserving of...and before you accuse me of bringing up the "reverse discrimination" issue that is hardly the case...over my 36 year "career" I have been offered managment positions on three ocassions...however I, like many of my white brethren and cistern, will have no part of it. I have my own reasons, but others do not want to be put in the position of authority over a predominantly minority workforce who will scream "discrimination" to the EEO/diversity police when they are forced to take some disciplinary action. Of course the company( a very large national one) will, for the most part, leave the supervisor swingin' in the wind...consequently there is going to be a down-side to this at some point in time, but management has let things get far too out of hand with this laissez-faire, inclusionary mindset dictating corporate policy. I simply hope the pension fund remains intact.


I had a great education and attended a private boarding school...Both of my parents did not have to work, just my dad did. Most minorities do not get this luxury either. I started life off in a position that 96% of minorities are not in. Life was easier for me than what is normal for most minorities.

Well, sounds like life was easier for you than most folks I know of, so...first off, I'd stop bandying about the phrase "ivory tower" if I were you...When I started high-school, my mom took a part-time job to help pay the parochial school tuition for myself and my brother, then in elementary school...My SATs got me into City College, but I dropped out because I could not afford the books and supplies, nor carry the workload AND my part-time job...it has proven to be no biggie, my Catholic high education has proven to be at least equal to, and in most cases far better than, that of most college grads who, while they may have the sheepskin, are dumber than a bag of hammers. I applied my meager abilities and worked my @$$ off to scratch out a reasonably comfortable existence. I got no help, nor did I expect any...oh, yeah that's right I'm white, that made all the difference...Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was hired when they were hiring anyone who could walk or talk, black, white, Hispanic...funny thing, most of the minorites washed-out for one reason or another...everything from unexplained, habitual absence to gettin' found shooting up in the men's room...those who toughed it out are still around or have now retired...they made the choice to be responsible for their lot in life.


...lot of jobs offer no benefits at all. This is becoming the norm because of the high cost of health coverage.

Hardly any sort of black/white issue...a great many workers do have good bennies but, for the most part they are skilled and unionized...again, there are any number of ways we can go about this but, folks who show no real abilities, refuse to attend or are disruptive in school, don't show up on time or show up at all at their jobs, etc. will be condemned to a life of menial, dead-end jobs...couple that with the corporate swine and their government lackeys who help move decent jobs to other countries and then move the population of some of those countries over here, further eroding the whole enchilada...

Healthcare? Blame? Tons to go around...in addition to some of the doctors themselves, there are the hospital bean-counters who answer to the board of directors, the pharmacuetical companies, the lawyers who sue the doctors and hospitals and let's not forget those who take little or no pro-active stance for their own welfare and use emergency rooms(quite probably one of the most expensive and cost-inefficient sources of care we have) as primary physicians for chronic conditions...and then have no means for payment...and trust me, the hospitals don't lose it, they simply spread the cost out...there are obviously other factors involved, but that's an entire thread unto itself.


Remember, the indians were here first, they were swept away(some argue it was genocide) to make room for european settlers.

The only thing we will probably ever agree on...IMO, these are the only people who deserve some sort of redress.


These are the words on the statue of liberty. Are you saying it should say send me your english speaking who are able to adopt to the culture that the majority set up, be able to take care of yourself no matter what, leave your culture and indentity behind, don't be poor, and learn fast. If you are of european decent you will do well, if you are from latin america or africa be ready for the glass ceiling and don't come here until you learn english.

Previous immigrants wanted to meld, wanted to leave the old country and it's various forms of intolerance or poverty...that no longer seems to be the case...I mean everyone may be entitled to a parade down Fifth Avenue or Main Street to celebrate their respective culture, but that doesn't entitle them to change the enire concept of "America". Recall the "balkanization" thing?


...they stop blacks and latino at a far greater rate than whites...

Why do you think that might be? The prison population of minorities is far out of alignment with that of the general public, why might that be? Do you really think they have been good little boys and girls and are just victims of society? Do you think it's profiling if cops stop ONLY orientals/ asiatics while investigating specific gang activity in Chinatown? Is there more of a chance you'll be arrested for drunk and disorderly on St. Paddy's Day if you have red hair and more than a trace of Guiness on your breath? Who are you goin to be looking for during the Puerto Rican Day parade for groping the female spectators?


It is easier to assimulate into society if you are european.

I'll assume you include Hispanic Europeans in that thought process.


The so called American culture is based on european standards...

But if you are not from europe, assimulation means to leave all vestiges of your indentity, and become like white people and just maybe you will do well...

That would be(in no particular order) British, French, Italian, Dutch, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Irish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish, Belgian, Swiss, Lithuanian, Norwegian...somebody get me a friggin' atlas...yep, they all(and then some) came here...so your point is? At some point in time they stopped being what they were and became what they are-English-speaking Americans...They all gave up a little to get the potential for a whole lot. What specifically do you define as "european standards" and why do you object to them?...


If you were born in a lower class family, you will probably remain in the lower class throughout your life. If you were born in the upper class, you will likely remain there the rest of your life. And the same for the middle class. People who have moved from the lower class to the middle class are the exception, not the norm according to this very comprehensive study. It also also well known that the lower class in this country just happen to be minorities, and the upper class is a white. The middle class consist of all races, but it is well known that it is dwindling quickly.

So, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...they needed a study for that? And there are people who will never get into Yale or Harvard or be able to become a ballerina or play basketball or... pick one......in some cases there is simply an inability to do something based on physicality...if you're overweight and have two-left feet chances are slim your gonna' be doin' a "Swan Lake" thing, if you're more apt to play a Munchkin in the sequel to "The Wizard Of Oz" I have a feelin' round-ball is out...

Unless you have money and/or connections, chances are Ivy League schools and hob-nobbing with the corporate elite isn't something the Gypsy will see in your tea leaves...HOWEVER, there is the potential, there is the chance for betterment. Some folks will rely on their own mettle to lift themselves out of their situation and some will just blame everyone OTHER than themselves for their predicament...

jimHJJ(...that's it for now...)

shokhead
09-14-2005, 10:00 AM
I'm nice and white,both parents worked full time and still couldnt affort college for my sister or me. Nice public schools all the way. Life's a b$tch for all colors. Can i afford to send my very smart 19{GPA of 3.84 thank you very much} year old to a 4 year univer. No. 2nd year at a city. Rich has gotten richer and the poor has gotten poorer,well forever,that not new. People of all colors have to help themselfs. Go into a job interview and shake hands and say,whats up is a bad way to start. You know i talk to our students here all the time and ask about what kind of a job they think they will look for after college. Most answers are what ever they give me but i'm not going to be a custodian like you.

piece-it pete
09-14-2005, 11:10 AM
Me I'm kinda pasty reddish light tan with small brown spots. Oh and a larger reddish nose that mysteriously gets redder every weekend.

:p

Agreed, life is hard for everyone. You can only play the cards dealt, and try to improve the rules.

My dad was in charge of very large government projects. He said that if you're a black female the sky is now the limit.

RL, arrrgh - puns! :D

Pete

BTW, although I realise most here think my avatar is a real picture of me, I am correcting the record. Here I am:









.

Resident Loser
09-14-2005, 11:25 AM
RL, arrrgh - puns! :D

Thought I'd inject a little humor into the situation...little being the operative word...

Had an English teacher whose favorite line in response to such verbal shenanigans was "...that was 2/3rds of a pun...pee-hew"...

jimHJJ(...and on that note...)

piece-it pete
09-15-2005, 04:46 AM
"...that was 2/3rds of a pun...pee-hew"...

jimHJJ(...and on that note...)

lol!

Thought everyone might be interested - apparently it is now believed that more slaves died being shipped across the Atlantic than the Nazis killed in the Holocaust.

Pete

shokhead
09-15-2005, 04:54 AM
Wonder what the world would be like without the whites? Seems nothing they have done is right. Really,no white people,where would we be right now as a nation?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-15-2005, 06:40 AM
You have some examples of this? I'm not trying to be argumentative but if someone lacks even a basic proficiency in a particular endeavor, is it really fair to the individual to push them in a certain way or fair to the other members of the class to be held behind because of them?

I'll give you a couple examples, but one is repeated over and over. You have one latino kid, VERY shy, doesn't really participate in discussions, but does excellent work consistantly. His teachers decided that because he doesn't really talk that much, that something must be wrong with his communication skills. They wanted to steer him towards special ed. However there wasn't a thing wrong with his work or ability to learn. Well they put him in special ed anyway, his grades plummeted, and his situation just got worse. As his mentor I complained about the move to special ed as this kid communicated with me just fine. They decided to move him back to regular classes, his grades skyrocketed.

Another case is kind of common in Oakland. You have a black kid who is very smart, but speaks street language in class. White teachers generally do not understand what they are talking about, and think that special ed classes that focus on language skills would be necessary. It really isn't, all you have to do is talk to the kids and let them know that speaking ebonics is making them seem stupid to the teachers, and the ones that want to succeed quit using it, and the ones that don't, don't. Special ed classes are not going to help anyone if they don't want to try.



Sorry, Terrence...in this day of those supposedly non-existent corporate quotas and earlier examples blatant "tokenism" I find it difficult to believe that any reasonably qualified minority person is "held back" or "stunted" in any way...in fact, I have been a witness to the complete opposite.

You may be a little jaded LOL. In the film industry where competition is really tough, and the good ole buddy network is alive and well, you could lose some oportunity to a senior engineers son who has no experience whatsoever in film audio. So what you have witnessed is exactly what I have been a victim of.




.I've seen people who are lucky they can put one foot in front of the other without falling over get promotions they were not deserving of...and before you accuse me of bringing up the "reverse discrimination" issue that is hardly the case...over my 36 year "career" I have been offered managment positions on three ocassions...however I, like many of my white brethren and cistern, will have no part of it. I have my own reasons, but others do not want to be put in the position of authority over a predominantly minority workforce who will scream "discrimination" to the EEO/diversity police when they are forced to take some disciplinary action. Of course the company( a very large national one) will, for the most part, leave the supervisor swingin' in the wind...consequently there is going to be a down-side to this at some point in time, but management has let things get far too out of hand with this laissez-faire, inclusionary mindset dictating corporate policy. I simply hope the pension fund remains intact.

I can truely understand where you are coming from on this. My problem was slightly different. One of the things I did when I got assigned to my first dubbing stage was to come up with ways to make it sound better. My first thing to do was to change where and how we calibrated the dubbing theater. I proposed measuring closer to the front array so you equalize in the near field as opposed to the far field as is currently done. Everyone thought this was heresy, and really raised a stink. I did it anyway and guess what, it worked perfectly. Everyone agreed it sounded much better than it had before. They however were so used to doing it the old way they really were quite resistant to the change. I kept finding my settings changed almost everyday I walked in the studio. Then I was asked to calibrate back the old way even though it sounded noticeably worse. Its very difficult for me to make these kinds of compromises, and I shouldn't have to.

There was also problems finding crews that would work with me. Most believed that if they were assigned to work with a minority, they wouldn't get any work. Or the instances where director didn't want to work with a minority out of fear(yes I was told this). I know of a few people of color who were VERY talented, but got chewed up in a system that wouldn't promote or support them, but would their white counterparts. Things are much different now.



Well, sounds like life was easier for you than most folks I know of, so...first off, I'd stop bandying about the phrase "ivory tower" if I were you.

No, I do not think I will. I may have started in a ivory tower, but I didn't stay there. So for those who are seemingly insulated from the harshness of discrimination, I think I'll just keep using it.



..When I started high-school, my mom took a part-time job to help pay the parochial school tuition for myself and my brother, then in elementary school...My SATs got me into City College, but I dropped out because I could not afford the books and supplies, nor carry the workload AND my part-time job...it has proven to be no biggie, my Catholic high education has proven to be at least equal to, and in most cases far better than, that of most college grads who, while they may have the sheepskin, are dumber than a bag of hammers. I applied my meager abilities and worked my @$$ off to scratch out a reasonably comfortable existence. I got no help, nor did I expect any...oh, yeah that's right I'm white, that made all the difference...Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was hired when they were hiring anyone who could walk or talk, black, white, Hispanic...funny thing, most of the minorites washed-out for one reason or another...everything from unexplained, habitual absence to gettin' found shooting up in the men's room...those who toughed it out are still around or have now retired...they made the choice to be responsible for their lot in life.

Well, no one helped me get through college. I was determined to go, had the grades easy, and payed for it by myself with no loans, no grants, and no help from anyone else. I graduated debt free because I worked my butt off, spent wisely, and ate alot of pancakes, top ramien, and hot dogs.


Hardly any sort of black/white issue...a great many workers do have good bennies but, for the most part they are skilled and unionized...again, there are any number of ways we can go about this but, folks who show no real abilities, refuse to attend or are disruptive in school, don't show up on time or show up at all at their jobs, etc. will be condemned to a life of menial, dead-end jobs...couple that with the corporate swine and their government lackeys who help move decent jobs to other countries and then move the population of some of those countries over here, further eroding the whole enchilada...

Its a black and white issue when you look at the stats. At that point you really cannot dismiss that blacks and latino's are more effected than whites. The studies clearly bear this out. What I think you are outlining are lapses of character within a person, that is not a black or white issue, that is a character issue. I however have seen white guys with powder hangin out of their noses, and watched the white bosses overlook it. I have seen people of color come in to work five minutes late(and not repeatedly) and get their a$$e$ chewed to pieces for it by those same white bosses.


Healthcare? Blame? Tons to go around...in addition to some of the doctors themselves, there are the hospital bean-counters who answer to the board of directors, the pharmacuetical companies, the lawyers who sue the doctors and hospitals and let's not forget those who take little or no pro-active stance for their own welfare and use emergency rooms(quite probably one of the most expensive and cost-inefficient sources of care we have) as primary physicians for chronic conditions...and then have no means for payment...and trust me, the hospitals don't lose it, they simply spread the cost out...there are obviously other factors involved, but that's an entire thread unto itself.

RL I think you missed the point in this. When a black and a white person have the same illness, the AMA noted that the white was often properly diagnosed and treated, and the black or latino was constantly mis-diagnosed and most times given the wrong drugs to treat the problem. When a white patient goes to their doctor with a problem, they were often patiently listen to, and the response usually fixed the problem. With blacks or latino's the problem was usually dismissed and not treated till it really get bad. These are the AMA findings after long term studies were completed. This cannot be dismissed like your are trying to do.




The only thing we will probably ever agree on...IMO, these are the only people who deserve some sort of redress.

Why should they be redressed? Nobody alive today shot a single indian, or stole a single piece of property from them. Isn't that the same argument you would use for black reperations. Whats the difference?




Previous immigrants wanted to meld, wanted to leave the old country and it's various forms of intolerance or poverty...that no longer seems to be the case...I mean everyone may be entitled to a parade down Fifth Avenue or Main Street to celebrate their respective culture, but that doesn't entitle them to change the enire concept of "America". Recall the "balkanization" thing?

They WANTED to be here, early black slaves did not. Every other nationality has come here willingly, the black race is the only race that came here against their will.




Why do you think that might be? The prison population of minorities is far out of alignment with that of the general public, why might that be? Do you really think they have been good little boys and girls and are just victims of society? Do you think it's profiling if cops stop ONLY orientals/ asiatics while investigating specific gang activity in Chinatown? Is there more of a chance you'll be arrested for drunk and disorderly on St. Paddy's Day if you have red hair and more than a trace of Guiness on your breath? Who are you goin to be looking for during the Puerto Rican Day parade for groping the female spectators?

I believe that you can look at everyone in attendance at puerto rican day, not just puerto ricans. Last time I went, there were people of all colors in attendance. Anyone of the guys regardless of color could be guilty of groping.

Go to a bar here in San Francisco on St paddies day. You will find blacks, whites, asians and latino's there. Maybe not on the east coast, but you will here.

It would be a huge mistake to assume that only chinese gangs operate in Chinatown.




I'll assume you include Hispanic Europeans in that thought process.

If they could pass for white, definately




That would be(in no particular order) British, French, Italian, Dutch, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Irish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish, Belgian, Swiss, Lithuanian, Norwegian...somebody get me a friggin' atlas...yep, they all(and then some) came here...so your point is? At some point in time they stopped being what they were and became what they are-English-speaking Americans...They all gave up a little to get the potential for a whole lot. What specifically do you define as "european standards" and why do you object to them?...

I define european standards as standards set by all of the people from the cultures you mention above, and not allowing the same wieight to the cultures of Africa and Latin America.

I do not object if one is willing and not forced to adopt the standards. Blacks and Indians are the only races that had this forced on them.

When europeans came to this country, they didn't stop being what they were. They changed what was already here into something they could live with. I do believe that christanity was pushed on the indians instead of them adopting indian spirituality.




So, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...they needed a study for that? And there are people who will never get into Yale or Harvard or be able to become a ballerina or play basketball or... pick one......in some cases there is simply an inability to do something based on physicality...if you're overweight and have two-left feet chances are slim your gonna' be doin' a "Swan Lake" thing, if you're more apt to play a Munchkin in the sequel to "The Wizard Of Oz" I have a feelin' round-ball is out...

I think you missed the point of the study. The study was meant to challenge the assertion that if you pulled your boots up, buckled down, you could be sucessful, and do better than your parents. This study shot down that notion. The way the structure of American society is designed, you are the exception if you do. The majority of us, no matter what we do, will end up in the same class we started in.


Unless you have money and/or connections, chances are Ivy League schools and hob-nobbing with the corporate elite isn't something the Gypsy will see in your tea leaves...HOWEVER, there is the potential, there is the chance for betterment. Some folks will rely on their own mettle to lift themselves out of their situation and some will just blame everyone OTHER than themselves for their predicament...

jimHJJ(...that's it for now...)

The study found the potiential is there for a small amount of people, but ellusive to the majority. Blame others? No need, our society is built on keeping the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. So the American system is the problem, not other people. The promise of betterment is just what it is, a promise, not a guarantee. In most cases its a dream that remains a dream.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-15-2005, 06:44 AM
Wonder what the world would be like without the whites? Seems nothing they have done is right. Really,no white people,where would we be right now as a nation?

It would be boring without whites. I wouldn't have never met my best friend, or the many close friends I have. That would be a bummer. They have done alot of things right, except share power with minorities.

GMichael
09-15-2005, 06:51 AM
It would be boring without whites. I wouldn't have never met my best friend, or the many close friends I have. That would be a bummer. They have done alot of things right, except share power with minorities.

Hahahahaha,

You've never been to my house then. Wifee has ALL the power.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-15-2005, 07:32 AM
Hahahahaha,

You've never been to my house then. Wifee has ALL the power.

LOL, I think most wives have all the power!!

GMichael
09-15-2005, 07:41 AM
LOL, I think most wives have all the power!!

So true. All the real power anyhow. She even decides when it's my turn to have my way. Usually it's something I don't care about. But I have to make that desision. When it's something I do care about, it's not "my turn" anymore. "Remember? You got to pick the blah blah blah, for the blah blah blah?" That I didn't give two sh.ts about.

Resident Loser
09-15-2005, 08:04 AM
...Thought everyone might be interested - apparently it is now believed that more slaves died being shipped across the Atlantic than the Nazis killed in the Holocaust.Pete

...quite possibly accurate...while trying to do some fact checking re: that premise I found a very interesting site "The Mariners Museum" based in Virginia...one statistic I found was that only 6% of the victims of the trans-Atlantic slave trade wound up in the NA colonies/states...

I would urge anyone who has been involved with this thread to visit this site for what IME is really the plain, unbiased and unvarnished truth regarding this tragedy:

http://www.mariner.org/captivepassage/index.html

It will take some time to do so, as there are many subtexts and exhibits, but I strongly suggest you make the effort to read it all.

And Terrence, contrary to what you probably think of my links, this WILL be worth your effort.

jimHJJ(...later folks...)

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-15-2005, 09:06 AM
...quite possibly accurate...while trying to do some fact checking re: that premise I found a very interesting site "The Mariners Museum" based in Virginia...one statistic I found was that only 6% of the victims of the trans-Atlantic slave trade wound up in the NA colonies/states...

I read it was closer to 12% from two different books.


I would urge anyone who has been involved with this thread to visit this site for what IME is really the plain, unbiased and unvarnished truth regarding this tragedy:

http://www.mariner.org/captivepassage/index.html

It will take some time to do so, as there are many subtexts and exhibits, but I strongly suggest you make the effort to read it all.

And Terrence, contrary to what you probably think of my links, this WILL be worth your effort.

jimHJJ(...later folks...)

I am afraid there really isn't anywhere where you can get unbaised and accurate information on slavery. I can't even find two books that agree on everything about slavery. After reading four or the six books my aunt recommended, I can only find a few things they all agree on. RL, I will continue reading though.

piece-it pete
09-15-2005, 12:55 PM
....In the film industry where competition is really tough, and the good ole buddy network is alive and well, you could lose some oportunity to a senior engineers son who has no experience whatsoever in film audio.


....Everyone agreed it sounded much better than it had before. They however were so used to doing it the old way they really were quite resistant to the change. I kept finding my settings changed almost everyday I walked in the studio. Then I was asked to calibrate back the old way even though it sounded noticeably worse. Its very difficult for me to make these kinds of compromises, and I shouldn't have to.


Boy T don't feel singled out here. This can happen to just about anyone except said bosses' son. I have had to compromise for the company and most others have too.


There was also problems finding crews that would work with me. Most believed that if they were assigned to work with a minority, they wouldn't get any work. Or the instances where director didn't want to work with a minority out of fear(yes I was told this). I know of a few people of color who were VERY talented, but got chewed up in a system that wouldn't promote or support them, but would their white counterparts. Things are much different now.


I'm glad to hear it. Really :yes: .



No, I do not think I will. I may have started in a ivory tower, but I didn't stay there. So for those who are seemingly insulated from the harshness of discrimination, I think I'll just keep using it.


Just out of curiousity, I looked it up on Websters:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ivory+tower&x=10&y=15

"Main Entry: ivory tower
Function: noun
Etymology: translation of French tour d'ivoire
1 : an impractical often escapist attitude marked by aloof lack of concern with or interest in practical matters or urgent problems
2 : a secluded place that affords the means of treating practical issues with an impractical often escapist attitude; especially : a place of learning"




Well, no one helped me get through college. I was determined to go, had the grades easy, and payed for it by myself with no loans, no grants, and no help from anyone else. I graduated debt free because I worked my butt off, spent wisely, and ate alot of pancakes, top ramien, and hot dogs.


Impressive. It reminds me over my dad talking about "real milk friday" when he went.


Its a black and white issue when you look at the stats. At that point you really cannot dismiss that blacks and latino's are more effected than whites. The studies clearly bear this out. What I think you are outlining are lapses of character within a person, that is not a black or white issue, that is a character issue. I however have seen white guys with powder hangin out of their noses, and watched the white bosses overlook it. I have seen people of color come in to work five minutes late(and not repeatedly) and get their a$$e$ chewed to pieces for it by those same white bosses.


I am sure this happens.


RL I think you missed the point in this. When a black and a white person have the same illness, the AMA noted that the white was often properly diagnosed and treated, and the black or latino was constantly mis-diagnosed and most times given the wrong drugs to treat the problem. When a white patient goes to their doctor with a problem, they were often patiently listen to, and the response usually fixed the problem. With blacks or latino's the problem was usually dismissed and not treated till it really get bad. These are the AMA findings after long term studies were completed. This cannot be dismissed like your are trying to do.


Do you have a link?


Why should they be redressed? Nobody alive today shot a single indian, or stole a single piece of property from them. Isn't that the same argument you would use for black reperations. Whats the difference?


I personally am agaist ANY reparations. Maybe some are justifiable but I don't think we as a society are mature enough to handle that can of worms.


They WANTED to be here, early black slaves did not. Every other nationality has come here willingly, the black race is the only race that came here against their will.


Agreed. They are natural (vs naturalised) Americans, though.



I believe that you can look at everyone in attendance at puerto rican day, not just puerto ricans. Last time I went, there were people of all colors in attendance. Anyone of the guys regardless of color could be guilty of groping.


Have you been groping women again T?!


Go to a bar here in San Francisco on St paddies day. You will find blacks, whites, asians and latino's there. Maybe not on the east coast, but you will here.


Here it's an excuse for the population in general to get plastered. But particularly the firemen - it's their free pass day.

It would be a huge mistake to assume that only chinese gangs operate in Chinatown.

The Mafia and Crips are there too?

All kidding aside, I'd be surprised if the Chinese mafia doesn't still base their ops out of Chinatown - it makes sense.

Good time to mention the "Middle Kingdom" - ALL non-Chinese were considered inferior.


I define european standards as standards set by all of the people from the cultures you mention above, and not allowing the same wieight to the cultures of Africa and Latin America.


I believe true.


I do not object if one is willing and not forced to adopt the standards. Blacks and Indians are the only races that had this forced on them.


Agreed that it was forced.


When europeans came to this country, they didn't stop being what they were. They changed what was already here into something they could live with. I do believe that christanity was pushed on the indians instead of them adopting indian spirituality.


Absolutely.



I think you missed the point of the study. The study was meant to challenge the assertion that if you pulled your boots up, buckled down, you could be sucessful, and do better than your parents. This study shot down that notion. The way the structure of American society is designed, you are the exception if you do. The majority of us, no matter what we do, will end up in the same class we started in.


Heck most of us know this. It's why stupid rich kids get high paying jobs. But the US is still the most upwardly mobile place around.


The study found the potiential is there for a small amount of people, but ellusive to the majority. Blame others? No need, our society is built on keeping the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. So the American system is the problem, not other people. The promise of betterment is just what it is, a promise, not a guarantee. In most cases its a dream that remains a dream.

I disagree that our system is built on keeping people down. It is clearly built on creating wealth, and keeping people down is not creating wealth but stealing it.

The American system is the problem compared to what, Utopia? Agreed the promise is a promise, no guarentee: "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" - not happiness but the pursuit of it.

T your comment : "I am afraid there really isn't anywhere where you can get unbaised and accurate information on slavery. I can't even find two books that agree on everything about slavery. After reading four or the six books my aunt recommended, I can only find a few things they all agree on."

Goodness, this is the "Crux of the biscuit". Someone important said "When two people are talking there are six people present. Who guy "A" is, the person he thinks he is, and the person guy "B" thinks he is. Ditto for guy "B".

History is even more so, whatever the subject. Not even people present know everything that's going on, and no one however careful and enlightened can totally park their prejudices at the door. Generally speaking, the best historians preface their works with a similar statement. It is also possible for two opposing statements to be true at the same time.

All you can do is use multiple sources, ie many books. Even if quite biased you learn a different point of view here, a new possible fact there.

A lot like this thread! Where else would you get so many different points of view in a conversation?

Oh and I'd recommend forgetting much of what we learned in school. History textbooks are awful! I mean they *STINK*. Full of propaganda and half-truths, when they bother discussing anything resembling truth at all. I can't believe our children are taught this drivel. It will hurt us badly.

I disagree that it would be boring, heck we bore up the place, what with not being able to dance, having no rhythm, etc, etc...

:D

RL I'm looking forward to checking out that link!

Pete

shokhead
09-16-2005, 05:40 AM
It would be boring without whites. I wouldn't have never met my best friend, or the many close friends I have. That would be a bummer. They have done alot of things right, except share power with minorities.


I thought power was earned?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-16-2005, 05:54 AM
I thought power was earned?

Or it can be taken. There was power here before european settlers came. That power was taken and shifted to the settlers themselves.

markw
09-16-2005, 06:31 AM
I thought power was earned?It's respect that has to be earned.

piece-it pete
09-16-2005, 07:15 AM
They have done alot of things right, except share power with minorities.

Don't they have the vote?

"You don't need the bullet when you've got the ballot." George Clinton, "Chocolate City"

Pete

Resident Loser
09-16-2005, 08:35 AM
....I'll give you a couple examples...

Well, with the first it's obvious that the teachers are at fault...insofar as teachers are concerned, there are those more interested in tenure and their own evaluation results(read: $$$) and then there are dedicated educators...luckily I've been exposed to more of the lattter than the former.

With the second, and I know your gonna' find fault with my response, it's a clear-cut case of personal responsibility...no matter how much street-talk we hear via the media, corporate America doesn't speak jive.


...the good ole buddy network is alive and well...

Trust me, while skin color may be something of a factor, the mindset of that network seems color-blind...you're either one of the "boys" or you're not...the other problems are "that's not the way we do things" and a general resistance to different approaches or methods particularly from the "new kid"...


...Its very difficult for me to make these kinds of compromises, and I shouldn't have to...

My philosophy with this sort of thing has been "Yes them to death then do what you we're going to do"...the argument being, you can't argue with favorable results...of course, if you have to work with some brown-nosed, @$$-kissing SOB who shakes your hand while slowly sticking the knife in...well, sometimes ya' gotta' bite the bullet. Use your best judgement.


I however have seen white guys with powder hangin out of their noses, and watched the white bosses overlook it. I have seen people of color come in to work five minutes late(and not repeatedly) and get their a$$e$ chewed to pieces for it by those same white bosses.

Well, Peruvian marching powder isn't in the equation in my line of work, bottle-babies, however, are...here's where a form of nepotism really arises, heck they may even be drinkin' buddies...boss hasta' make a show of his power, so the most vulnerable is usually made an example of...once again in my experience, had been color-blind...nowadays not so much...the white guy is an easy scapegoat with little or no chance of repercussions.

With regard to the whole health issue...Doctors are above it all. Questioning them tends to result in a verbal pat on the head and a look that indicates you have obviously overstepped your bounds...I've had more than my share of that kind of response this past 18mos. They tend to be like small-town America who has the latest and greatest fire-fighting or other type of equipment; they use 'em at the drop of a hat...If they know you have bennies or the cash to pay the freight they will bend, fold or otherwise subject you to every test imaginable. If the first battery of tests are inconclusive, well Jim, we have more in store...and when all is said and done...well, it's still inconclusive...so wadda' I do doc? They don't have a clue, but someboy's paid for their next trip to???

I have seen some reports on similar studies, but the caveat is that fewer minorities follow medical recommendations, they tend to stop taking the medications prescribed and in general tend to be less pro-active in their overall health...I'm not trying to dismiss anything, you can lead a horse to water, yada, yada, yada...

We can get into a whole 'nother thing re: native Americans...but, I think we have enough on our plates for now .


No need, our society is built on keeping the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. So the American system is the problem, not other people. The promise of betterment is just what it is, a promise, not a guarantee. In most cases its a dream that remains a dream.

And even if one become's rich(if that's what you want) you'll still be just the nouveau riche, the new money...which is always inferior to the old money. Only diff is now you can look down on someone else...

Problem? Give me another system...Anarchy? Socialism? Communism is a failure, even in it's purest form there are those who will usurp power and lord over others. There are no promises, there are no guarantees...as I recall there are "...inalienable rights..." for citizens to "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."How you go about it is strictly up to you.

jimHJJ(...TGIF...)

shokhead
09-16-2005, 09:04 AM
I work at a school and ANY student of ANY color is in the classroom getting the same instructions on how to do the work,given the same homework to do and if needed,given extra help. I think the rest falls on the student and parents,right?

GMichael
09-16-2005, 09:06 AM
I work at a school and ANY student of ANY color is in the classroom getting the same instructions on how to do the work,given the same homework to do and if needed,given extra help. I think the rest falls on the student and parents,right?

Even the green & purple ones?

But really, that's great. That's how it should always be. Even after school it should still be that way.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-16-2005, 09:48 AM
Don't they have the vote?

"You don't need the bullet when you've got the ballot." George Clinton, "Chocolate City"

Pete

They have the vote, but it takes money to win. Nobody seems to want to support a black candidate, and given the untimely death of past black leaders, nobody legitimate(Jesse and Al don't count) wants to step up to the plate. Maybe Obama from Illinois will step up to the plate in a few years.

piece-it pete
09-16-2005, 12:35 PM
Colin Powell, and (gasp) Condi?

Pete

shokhead
09-16-2005, 12:44 PM
I like Condi.

markw
09-16-2005, 12:51 PM
Of course, that ultimately would depend on who is running aginst him, but it would not be a color issue. It would be an issues issue.

as far as Al Sharpton and his cronies. well, let's just say I'm still seething over that Tawana Brawley thing. Anyone involved there is on my shiite list, and that includes the Cos. ..nobody ever issued an apology to the real victims there.

GMichael
09-16-2005, 01:10 PM
Of course, that ultimately would depend on who is running aginst him, but it would not be a color issue. It would be an issues issue.

as far as Al Sharpton and his cronies. well, let's just say I'm still seething over that Tawana Brawley thing. Anyone involved there is on my shiite list, and that includes the Cos. ..nobody ever issued an apology to the real victims there.

I got to meet Al Sharpton back when the Tawana Brawley thing was going on. I don't hold a grudge, but after meeting him, he'd never get my vote. It was very clear that he was in it to make a name for himself. And it worked.

I'd vote for an "anycolor man or women" if I believe in him/her or what he/she stands for. Or if I believe in the other choices less. (this is the one that comes up the most)

piece-it pete
09-16-2005, 03:02 PM
How about an Al Sharpton/David Duke ticket?

Condis' an ... itch... prerequisite for the job imo (male or female). She doesn't have enough experience to be elected, she may run in 08 just for name recognition, but prolly not in earnest till '12 (holy cow, am I talking about 2012? I feel old).

On the plus side, she could do a piano/sax duet with Clinton lol.

Pete

GMichael
09-16-2005, 05:18 PM
How about an Al Sharpton/David Duke ticket?

Condis' an ... itch... prerequisite for the job imo (male or female). She doesn't have enough experience to be elected, she may run in 08 just for name recognition, but prolly not in earnest till '12 (holy cow, am I talking about 2012? I feel old).

On the plus side, she could do a piano/sax duet with Clinton lol.

Pete

I shutter to think of it.

Resident Loser
09-19-2005, 06:26 AM
...I'd vote for Powell in a minute!

In what will be an historic, precedent setting event, might as well set what seems(at least at this juncture) to be the "gold standard"...for ANY presidential candidate...probably never happen however. When asked if she would support his candidacy, Mrs. Powell responded that she would but, then went on to say something to the effect of "...but he has more sense than that..." Can you say WAF?

Sharpton is a demagogue IMO and it's a shame Cos' allowed himself to be dragged into that whole sordid affair...lost points, big time, in my book...but he has regained a bit with some of his more recent remarks...still, I think denouncing all those who led him astray would be the right thing to do.

jimHJJ(...whoompa...whoompa...whoompa..."...NOAH!..."...)